Soprano Trombone or Slide Trumpet?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 20 гру 2014
- After reading a rather amusing online forum debating in gentlemanly fashion whether the instrument discussed in this video is a trombone or a trumpet, I was motivated to create this video to help explain.
The two brief pieces I demonstrate during this video are, in order of appearance, Moto Perpetuo, and The Acrobat.
The URL for the demonstration video of the trumpet family is: • The Trumpet Family
The URL for the demonstration video of the trombone family is: • The Trombone Family
Thanks to wyldesnoyse.co.uk and a Google images search for the photos of slide trumpets shown at the end of this video.
Support the creation of new content: / trenthamiltonnz
Donate: trent.nz/donate.html
Send me stuff!
POBox 5107
Wellington 6140
New Zealand
Subscribe here: ua-cam.com/users/subscription_c...
Join me on Facebook: / trenthamiltonnz
Join me on Twitter: / trenthamiltonnz
It's actually an extendy-bugle
Yes that is right
Although it is worth remembering that trombones are within the trumpet family because of the cylindrical tubing, rather than the horn family with the conical tubing.
"Trombone" is Italian for "Big Trumpet".
Nice slide trumpet. Is that a bass slide trumpet at 1:25?
Marc Vise its a contrabass slide trumpet
Marc Vise yes
It's a slide euphonium
no
Me talking to friends "so I was playing this piece on my trombone"
Them "?"
Me: ... "slidey trumpet"
Andrew Wallace *they're
Yeah, the only redeeming factor in saying "slide trumpet" is that it's dumb proof and somewhat funnier to say in a context
That's not an alto trombone, it's a slide flugelhorn. ;)
No, alto trombones would be slide mellophones or slide alto horns. Flügelhorns have the same amount of tube as trumpets and speak in the same range.
Nice try, but no. The shape is too different.
Max Burger-Roy John Ries, do you guys not see the winky face at the end of his comment, it's sarcasm...
The firebird was a trumpet with a trombone slide added. Invested by Manyard Ferguson. Plus your idea a trombone can't do what a trumpet can't do, they do make valve trombones.
Maynard also helped create a superbone or a trombone with valves
I think that it is appropriate to call a tenor trombone a slide baritone
Ewwww. No.
what about a contrabass trombone called a slide tuba?
TheKillzDude G-Dash well duhh.
trombones are just metal oboes
Baritones are great, euphoniums are better though
0:22 best moment
now those of us who have several brain cells will know that this is a soprano trombone
I think a better reason is because how the bores are shaped in the trumpet family and trombone family.
Trumpets have a conical leadpipe before going into a cylindrical section and the bell, whereas in trombones the mouthpiece connects right up to a cylindrical slide section and then the bell.
This difference in the shape of the bore would result in a difference in tone quality and other qualities of instruments.
Bro!!! I just subscribed to you after seeing your shorts, and then like a week later I searched up what a slide trumpet was! I didn’t realize you had been making videos for this long, kudos!!!!!
I've always been taught that "-one" means "big" and "-et" means "small" and that tromb*one* and trump*et* are just variations on the same instrument- as their names might suggest. The shape and mechanic does seem like a better argument, though.
+tahu545 Correct - in Italian 'trombone' means 'large trumpet.'
It depends on how you (or languages/countries) view or approach it. The trombone was once known as the sacbutt for whatever reason.
Shape is a pretty superficial reason to consider an instrument a member of one family over another. After all, the difference in shape between a bassoon and a contrabassoon is comparable to that between what one usually thinks of as a trumpet and a trombone. I think it would only be worth distinguishing between a trombone and a slide trumpet of the same range if they had, say, different bore profiles-something that would have a perceptible influence on the tone of response of the instrument. For all I know such differences do exist, but if not, the names might as well be interchangeable.
Hi Alex, thanks for your comment. Calling a soprano trombone a slide trumpet is wrong because a slide trumpet is something else entirely. I'm just using the shape of the instrument as a means of distinguishing between trumpets and trombones.
Naw it's perfectly fine. That's why we still call it a Valve Trombone, instead of a bass Trumpet.
It is not the shape of the instrument which makes it a trombone or a trumpet. It is the proportions of the bore. There are plenty of trombones which are shaped very differently a standard slide trombone. For example, Adolphe Sax designed a trombone with six valves, like this one: collections.ed.ac.uk/mimed/record/17240?highlight=trombone. Similarly, trumpets come in different shapes. Here is a helicon bass trumpet: collections.ed.ac.uk/mimed/record/14589?highlight=trumpet.
Anthony Baines' article on the trombone in Grove Music Online says that without extending the slide, the bore of the trombone is cylindrical for about half of its length. After this, the bore is conical, and flares at the bell. Edward Tarr, who wrote the Trumpet article in Grove Music Online, says that the trumpet has a bore which is cylindrical for about three quarters of its length, which is conical in the last quarter, with a flared bell.
The instrument you are talking about in this video may well be a trombone, but not for the reasons you gave.
As a trombonist that trombone scares me
When you said, on a trumpet you cant, and on a trombone you cant, is that a direct challenge?
yes.
But what about ... ... *valve trombones*?
I mean if you paid attention to the video you would understand that it has the same layout as a trombone, so therefore it is a trombone.
No particular chord? Just, a random "dramatic" chord?
Trent does not view valved trombones as real instruments.
Are you talking about the contrabass trumpet?
Valve trombone are not trombones, I'll say that
I guess a trumpet is a soprano valved trombone
Thank you for explaining to those kinds of people out there
I like the sli-o-mix in the background... there is truly no better lube for your sakbut.
+Will Kuethe That shit's the best lubricant you will ever find for a trombone.
Personally I think the shape does not matter, for example: in a clarinet, the whole body is straight with the bell going downwards, however on a bass clarinet only some of the body is straight, and the bell is facing upwards with a curve at the bell and neck
The shape actually does matter. Consider the difference in sound quality between a baritone and a trombone (even a valve trombone), for example; or between a metal B-flat clarinet (there are such things) and a soprano saxophone. I don't know what the difference in sound would be between a straight bass clarinet and a standard one would be, but it isn't hard to guess that the former would be much harder to play.
It may not matter as much in the defining factors of the clarinet family, but these 2 families are defined by it moreso.
Great video. Couldn't have put it better myself. British orchestras, and possibly also those here in NZ used (as standard) a type of slide trumpet for most of the 19th century. They commonly also had cornets (with valves). It has only been since the 1910s that trumpets with valves became common, usually replacing cornets and slide trumpets. As I understand it until the 20th century the terminology was that trumpets were valveless, the keyed instrument was usually called a keyed bugle, and the valves instrument was cornet and several other things such as a cornucopia not and sax horn. Although the shape and bore of these instrument doesn't classify them as types of trumpet. I know Hawkes were still making slide trumpets in the 1920s - and I'd love to get one. On a related note, I also believe although I'm not certain that British orchestras also used smaller bore horns, often pitched in D as standard in the nineteenth century. I presume these were natural horns or possibly variants of Vienna horns, but again I don't really know.
i didnt know about all these trombones until i started watching this guy now i been trying to get my hands on a piccolo trombone
Thank you, so much, for a very informative and well thought out video. I was originally looking for information on the " Slide Cornet", that was played back in the 40's & 50's in Big Band settings. Could you touch on this please? Much Thanks!
I love your videos Trent. Could you please do a video on the keyed Trumpet or Keyed Bugle please? 😎❤️🎺 Thank you very much.
very informative.. many thanks
Thanks, very clear
Well put sir
You said "on a soprano trombone you cant do this", then played presumably a 32nd note run, but I believe that with enough practice, it is possible on soprano trombone
By naming, Trombone is a contraction of "Tromba-one" ("Large Tromba" in italian) while Trumpet is a contratcion of "Trumba-pette" ("Small Trumba" in french).
The words might have come into use in the English language at different times represnting different families of instruments, but the meaning originates from the same instrument family. In Germanic languages it's more simplified, where "Posaune" can be used as a generalized term for the trumpet/trombone instrument-class as a whole.
But Posaune is "trombone", while trumpet is "Trompete"
The modern valve trumpet was invented after the naming conventions changed with the growing popularity of symphonic orchestras through the late 1700's and 1800's, so it's not usually reffered to as a Posaune. On the other hand, Posaune can often reffer to the valve-less natural trumpet though.
I love "The Acrobat" on the soprano trombone. I just not want to hear it on the contrabass trombone
Hi Trent! Great video, but I do have one complaint: You keep defining the instruments by their shape rather than bore, pitch, or manner that they're played. By your definition of a trumpet, a cornet, a flugelhorn, marching baritone and euphonium could be considered a trumpet. Also, there is such a thing as a slide trumpet (Also called a firebird) which has 3 valves and a 4 position slide, which protrudes past the bell. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebird_%28trumpet%29
Thanks for listening!
I understand your reasoning with the marching baritone, but a euphonium does not follow the shape pattern he described with the trumpet.
He was simply showing the defining characteristics that would seperate the 2 families; what they most clearly do not have in common.
While shape is one thing, I think more factors come into play, most notable origins. While the Trombone family arose from the old Sackbuts, the Trumpets came from their valveless predecessors. The Sackbut did indeed evolve from the trumpet, but the Soprano Trombone itself didn't evolve from the Trumpet, the Sackbut did. Thus, the Soprano Trombone is, in fact, a Soprano Trombone in the same sense that humans are humans and not giant bald monkeys!
Side note: the way the bore changes is also different from trombone to trumpet, giving the Soprano Trombone a more Horn-like tone. I have both and tested them next to each other so I'd know :)
When he said you put your mouth here while talking about the tenor trombone I was just like NO SHIT XD
I am thinking that defining a trumpet by having longest horizontal dimension from bell to mouthpiece, is not a good way to define it, since how the tuning is wrapped doesn't seem to me to be of primary importance as to tone.
All trumpets have predominantly cylindrical bore and have a similar tubing wrap, where the mouthpiece and the bell define the ends of the instrument. Cornets and flügelhorns have somewhat conical bore, while the euphonium and French horn, as well as the trombone and saxhorn (includes the tubas, baritone, and tenor horns) families have dramatically different tubing wraps. Because the wraps of the trumpets are generally very free-blowing, they sound brighter and more brassy than the trombones or saxhorns.
I would have thought it was to do with how conical the bore is - you could have one of each and the sound it make would determine whether you call it trombone or trumpet. However I'm sure you know more than I do...
coool! thank you
+Trent Hamilton Great video! I read and play music with the Bb trumpet. And I play many melodies on the slide whistle -- but only by ear. Do you think I'll be able to play melodies on the soprano trombone by ear, by combining the mechanics of the slide whistle along the embouchure I've acquired with the trumpet?
Cool Beans. Thank you much.
Bb Trumpets with rotary valves are also played on their side. Like your bass trumpet.
The last thing then also could be done with slide and valve trombone... they're still both trombones.
Bach Co. sold the slide trumpet and the soprano trombone in my younger days. As a trombone player I was curious why the soprano trombone cost more then the slide trumpet. I think your lecture is the key to knowing the difference. Can you buy a slide trumpet that was marketed in 1960's.
I wouldnt nessesarily say that shape is the main component... im a ssxophonist, and I can tell you that a bass sax and a soprano sax have no similarity in shape whatsoever...
+PancakePredatorDefinition of trumpet: any of a family of brass wind instruments with a powerful, penetrating tone, consisting of a tube commonly curved once or twice around on itself and having a cup-shaped mouthpiece at one end and a flaring bell at the other.Which is exactly what he saidDefinition of trombone: a musical wind instrument consisting of a cylindrical metal tube expanding into a bell and bent twice in a U shape, usually equipped with a slideSimilar to what he saidWhat these definitions show is that that trombone is not a slide trombone, and that shape does define the instrument for these two.I will touch a bit on what you mentioned.Definition of saxophone: a musical wind instrument consisting of a conical, usually brass tube with keys or valves and a mouthpiece with one reed.As you can see, a saxophone is not defined by its shape, but rather it’s rees, brass making, and keys.
The word "trombone" comes from the Italian word for "big trumpet" indicating how closely the two instruments are related. The "one" ending also appears in "violone" (big viol), the obsolete larger ancestor of the modern violoncello (little big viol).
Don't use saxophone logic to try and define a brass instrument.
A trombone is a slidey brass tenor saxophone
I agree, the only reason why soprano trombone is more correct is because it’s what it was called by the inventor, likely because he made it with a standard trombone design, then made it smaller. However, the instrument could have also been invented another way by taking a trumpet and adding a slide, which would require reconfiguring the instrument to exactly what a soprano trombone is anyway. In other words, if other trombones were not already invented, the soprano trombone would be called a slide trumpet rather than having its own name, it all depends on the origin, not the configurations and angles of the parts
Yes
At 5:50 that is "Gossipo perpetuo" by Jean Jacques perrey. (I think)
moto perpetuo by Paganini
Trent Hamilton well, at least I was kind of close. Ha ha. I think Jean Jacques Perrey used the same music in his song and that was the only place I heard it.
what the song called at 6:04 for the sheet music so I can play it on the soprano trombone please
I think really a great question to ask would be, does the person calling it a slide trumpet make any distinction between a bass trumpet and a valve trombone? And if so, what features are used to distinguish the two, and why do they or don't they apply to the discussion about the soprano trombone?
For those who would argue that a bass trumpet and a valve trombone are two different and distinct instruments (which I would believe would be most people), the defining characteristics would seem to be everything you pointed out here.
interesting!
A a soprano trombone was considered a slide trumpet, then by the same logic a contrabass trombone would be considered a slide tuba.
Is the Soprano trombone a transposing instrument like the Bb trumpet?
where did you even get this particular soprano trombone
Enjoy all your videos, Trent. Played trombone years ago with the US Navy Bands, but lost use of the left arm. Am interested in your opinion of a King trombonium. Quality, intonation, etc. I could handle that one- handed. Baritones don't cut it for me musically, and valve trombones cannot comfortably be cradled in one's lap. Tromboniums seem rare to get, but perhaps there's a good one out there. How do i contact you? John in Florence, OR.
Unfortunately I don’t have any personal experience of king tromboniums, but very want to try one someday
What did you play at 6:05?
+wwemario12345 A piece called "The Acrobat"
wwemario12345 Thanks for asking that question, I was wondering the same thing
wwemario12345 i
The Acrobat
Isn't that instrument you showed us at 3:15 also known as a bugle? If not, why not?
perfectly said :)
5:49 Plays Moto Perpetuo by Paganini
Hi, I'm a trumpet player and my father in law, who also played the trumpet and gave me six beautiful vintage horns. One ( that I play most often), is a gorgeous King trumpet, that is of art deco design and etching, silver, with a gold bell, from the 1920s. Among other treasures, he left to me a saprono trombone, but I was told it is a slide trumpet. Truthfully I've not tried playing it. I need to find some resource to show me just how it's played . Do you know where this kind if resource is found? Oh, and I, ( I have12) thought I had a lot of horns, till I just saw your great collection!
If you’re interested in emailing me we can discuss this properly :). Trenthamiltonnz@gmail.com
Does this make a marching baritone technically a tenor trumpet.
It would be more of a marching flugelhorn
For a soprano trombone, would you play music made for a trumpet or for a trombone?
Yeah! ;) I agree with you Trent mate! ;) It's DEFINITELY a saprano trombone not a "slide trumpet"! A musical instrument's physics engine always dictates what it is not how it sounds! XD
“Physics engine?” Now you’re talking video games!
What about a marching baritone
Jcoffman that’s in the saxhorn family; different family. Alto horn, mellophone, cornet, baritone horn are in this family
I was watching this guy who did review on a trombone and the 2nd thing he said was and this is a trombone without valves
Trumpets, cornets, and flugelhorns are seperated by what percentage of the bore is conical vs. cylindrical, would this not be what seperates a trumpet from a trombone?
Andrew both trumpets and trombones are cylindrical bore
I want one
I am 10 and need help with the slide trombones song with trumpet
Where did you purchase your soprano trombone?
Trombone is Italian for large trumpet. If it is no longer large then what would Italians call it. BTW, just got my first trombone. A Buescher Aristocrat 250NZD. Having fun in all 6 positions. I got up to the F 5th partial.
5:45 you can if you're really good
I like to keep it simple. A soprano trombone is a trombone but trumpet, a bass trumpet is a trumpet but trombone, and a double contra trombone is a trombone but tuba.
would it affect ur ambitiore?
Isn't the first trumpet you showed us a type of bugle (please eneyone correct me if I am wrong)
Beth Paton no a bugle was a member of a different family of instruments. A bugle generally was conical while the trumpets are cylindrical bore brass instruments.
"Those of us who have civil braincells" -- quite the orator.
Do you like trompone more or trumpet?
Also do you call a valved trombone a contrabass trumpet
Tubing length??
Question: Is the Soprano Trombone in the key of C or B flat? Also if I wanted to purchase one what would be the best manufacturer to buy from?
+yeah _ It's in the key of Bb. There aren't too many options for decent soprano trombones though.
+Trent Hamilton
Is that concert pitch, or a half step below? That always confuses me because concert pitch is apparently also called C despite the fundamental being Bb, whereas a Bb trumpet starts on a C...
+Trent Hamilton
Is that concert pitch, or a half step below? That always confuses me because concert pitch is apparently also called C despite the fundamental being Bb, whereas a Bb trumpet starts on a C...
+Garen Crownguard it's all transposition. As a clarinet and guitar palyer, I've gotten quite good and transposing. A trumpet is in B-flat, a half step lower. Open on a B-flat trumpet, or the soprano trombone is line G (treble clef). On a flute, c trumpet, guitar, piano ( concert instrument, c instrument) open is f.
josiah tucker I thought open was C on Bb trumpets? And excuse my ignorance, I play trombone so I've never been exposed to the topic. But I'd like to get into soprano and alto instruments (mostly in Eb and Bb, not C) so I'm interested.
Yeah I play trombone and I think you are correct
6:04 Plays The Acrobat
I take both of those impossibilities as challenges.
🌿🌿🌿
5:28 Bb Major Scale on Bb Trumpet
5:33 Bb Major Scale on Bb Soprano Trombone (aka Slide Trumpet)
Bruh
If we are calling that a slide trumpet then I'm going to call a violin a piccolo guitar and a glockenspiel is an alto piano.
The only part that sometimes throws me is differentiating a valveless trumpet from a bugle. At least those two look cosmetically similar.
The slide doesn't like you anymore 1:41
So a mellophone is a trumpet? Alto trumpet?
but the real question is do the slide trumpet and soprano trombone serve the same purpose?
That question implies that the slide trumpet and soprano trombone _have_ a purpose.
tbh it doesnt matter what its called they can both be called the same thing honestly it sounds like a trumpet so its kinda whatever to me, slide trumpet just doesn't sound snooty
How u are holding the soprano trombone like that makes me scared
If the way you explain if something is a trumpet or not, wouldn't a mellophone (marching mello specifically) be considered a type of trumpet, perhaps a trumpet in F. (If it's a F mellophone)
+ZEDecay
I always thought it was...
Michael Kirby Just a general thought.
How about the alto trombone?
What do you want to know about it?
It's just that you didn't mention it
marc ordonio Check out 1:54
So by the principles of a trumpet, would a marching mellophone and a marching baritone be a part of the trumpet family?
Seeing as marching instruments got their start from bugles, part of the trumpet family, they would be trumpets technically, no?
Unless I'm just dull in the brain and don't know the basics of different instruments.
the baritone and mellophone are in the extended trumpet family. I had to google it to know this, the trombone is basically the only brass instrument in the trumpet family
I had to think about it, but I guess the shoulder-loaded marching baritone might be so considered. Its bell front (sometimes also called a "marching baritone") and upright bell namesakes, however, are definitely members of the tuba family.
i like to nickname the soprano trombone the slide trumpet because it sounds alot like a trumpet and has a slide. Also cornets and flugelhorns arn't trumpets even though they have a mouthpiece at one end and a bell at the other.
Cornets sound like trumpets though...
I did see a slide trumpet in a music store once. What you show wasn't it and definitely looks like a little trombone.
It's not a contrabass trombone, it's a slide tuba
Some slide trumpets do not actually have the mouthpiece at the end, but in the middle as well. This video shows three slide trumpets and a sackbut. The lead pipe and bit of the slide trumpet is sometimes angled (I suppose to accomodate bits and crooks for different keys) and the slide extends back over the shoulder. So yes, these are definitely slide trumpets, but they do not all conform to the mouthpiece at the end theory.
ua-cam.com/video/Deivz0U7RBk/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/Deivz0U7RBk/v-deo.html
The scientific name of this is wangjangler
A swedish comedian called trombone ”trumpet with selfie-stick”
If shape did matter, than would most soprano saxophones be considered clarinets?
Derpy Sheep shape only matters in brass families because woodwinds come in many shapes for the same instrument(straight vs curved soprano saxophones)
As a trumpet fanboy I can confirm that it doesn’t take that many brain cells to know that it’s called a soprano trombone
It'd be so cool if you actually had a slide trumpet.
shout up ! and TAKE MY MONEY !
The other reason you can't call it a slide trumpet is because then you're calling an alto trombone a "slide tenor horn" and a contrabass trombone a "slide tuba" and a cimbasso a "valved slide tuba"
I think I also have alto
Why does your tone sound so much better on the trumpet than on the slide trumpet?
(LOL)
It's a very cheap trombone and a decent trumpet.
slide bass trumpet