After having a number of problems with punctures not sealing and hving to prematurely bin a few tyres, I am going back to tubes, even on my gravel bike. Looking forward to part 2.
Yep, I agree. Tubeless for Road is a solution for a problem which doesn’t exist. I run tubeless on both my gravel bike and mountain bike, but for my road bikes I’m still running inner tubes, either latex or TPU.
I've tried them out myself, quite in doubt, as I expected them to be extremely fragile on poor quality mountain roads. Surprisingly enough, they were flawless for over 3.000 km, and in spite of some superficial cuts, they never punctured and they are still going quite strong. Probably not as resilient in extreme conditions as my previously-favourite tyres, the Panaracer Evo 4 Type D (or the Type A for what it's worth), but much nicer to ride and a tiny bit faster. That being said, I've just ordered a second pair.
You sure demonstrated why I wasn't interested in going tubeless on my road bike. To improve rolling resistance and reduced weight I have gone with Continental GP5000 and RideNow TPU tubes but stuck with the original 32c tyre width. For me the death nail for tubeless was reading a recommendation of carrying a spare inner tube. My bike has frame storage, so with the RideNow TPU tube compact size, I can put two tubes in that storage and still save weight over one butyl tube. At least on the roads that I ride, the hassle and regular maintenance requirement for tubeless, hardly seems worth it. Thanks for your work.
Probably the reason I went back to tubulars 😅 on Elite & Deerobust carbon wheels, still doing awesome sets. No punctures last 2 seasons and great ride comfort on 28 (Veloflex) road and 32-34 (Tufo) cx for gravel. Let the discussions start 😉
F*@K tubeless tires on a road bike! What a headache! Yes, I run tubulars on my event wheels and Gatorskin clinchers on everyday carbon clinchers and rarely have a flat or an issue other than replacing them when they are worn.
Seriously? You do know these are just a couple of bike tyres, not an Open University project? All the reasons I gave up on tubeless after 2 years of trying encapsulated in a 20 minn video. Brilliant.
Had them in 28 mm on Fulcrum racing DB wheels for a season, tubless, hooked, my weight is 86 kg and I ran them at 45-47 PSI. Did not skip a beat, no punctures, used for light gravel even, seated with floor pump, loved them, very sticky in dry, bad when wet and very supple and comfortable. Guess some combinations just work whilst others do not. 🤷🏻♂️
I had the exact same experience. I have 28c tubeless on 21 mm holowgram wheels. I've had no punctures and no other issues. They ride smoothly and don't skip a beat. They're fast and beautiful (in the beige). @mapdec
The bird is a Red Kite as i an sure you know. Wonderful to see them in our skies again. Reintroduced from Spanish stock i believe and thriving now Colonel Blimps gamekeepers are no longer blasting them with their Purdys.
Great video and content👍🏽 Also reassures me why i dont do Tubeless, looks like such a faff tbh, i just get on my Power Cup clinchers and off i go, barely any air lost, no flats recently 🤷🏽 the cycling world has gone bonkers 😆 but keeep up the great work, you're one of the more/most interesting people on YT, my Giant Contend 1 is custom built by myself so I'm always looking for tips!👍🏽
Thank god I use tubes and clinchers. I pump them up and go out for a ride, let them gradually go softer, ignore it, go for a load of rides. Eventually I pump them up again. And go for a load of rides. Magic. No sealant, no weird powder, no waving tyres and wheels around, no confusing tables of specs. You should try it, it's great.
My head is still spinning, 🙄I will watch again and pay closer attention. Thanks for the EVT tools tip, they are a neighbor of sorts, just across the mighty Columbia River, outrageous rides in the Columbia Gorge. Again, good job as usual. Your idea on "free" upgrades is a good one. Have a great rest of your evening.
12:25 I like to rest my freshly tubeless wheels facing up/down for an hour or two with a little spin to settle sealant against the rim walls, instead of swishing and bouncing. I've had more luck this way.
Paul as you so often emphasise the physical compatibility / parameters between tyre and rim is crucial. Still very much a work in progress for the bike industry. Reminiscent of initial problems with in use rim leakage on car run flat tyres 20+ years ago. The worrying aspect is the communication of technical understanding to Joe Public and their comprehension and adherence to it. So applause for raising awareness on the topic …….. but for my own uses clinchers and tubes on the road for me.
Thanks Kevin. Yes. I think I have said it many times now. The tech is troubled by really poor communication. It probably started when wheel brands just launched hookless without telling any tyre brands 😂
I'll stick to my GP 5000s clinchers with latex tubes, amazing performance and eaisy to maintain & repair. I don't know if you were setting up tubeless tires or making a protein shake lol!!! 😂😂😂 Great video as always cheers!!!
@@zedddddful totally worth it! It is the first upgrade anyone on clinchers should do, compared to regular tubes they're lighter and you feel the tires instantly softer and more reactive to your input.
Normal latex tubes are awesome, but when running one of those thin lightweight latex tubes, be prepared to pump them every 3 hours. Latex can't hold pressure over a full day.
@@Nico-jt8ll I've used the Vittoria latex tubes and they hold air very well each ride. I'd rather pump my tubes to the pressure I want everytime I ride them than deal with shaking tubeless cocktails 😆
Thanks for the thorough deep dive on the mech stuff. Best info available on UA-cam. And props for making Michelin aware of their error in documentation. Which is quite a worry. If you need to calculate rider weight/rim width/tyre size/hooked/hookless/min & Max psi just to mount a tyre I'd want to be sure the manufacturers info was at least correct, otherwise there's no way a consumer can not only get it right, but ride safely. I'll stay with tubes because I'm lazy, but I appreciate the content regardless.
Yeah, I don't use the manufacturer's recommendations (except for their max pressure, which is a safety consideration). For your weight, the SRAM tire pressure guide suggests 63 psi front and 67 psi rear, which lines up really well with your experience.
13:35... watching that Macbook sitting over the edge, was causing me to twitch. I'm about your weight and I've been running around 75psi with 28c tires (how accurate my gauge is subject to debate).
@@Mapdec I have serious doubts about the accuracy of my Lezyne's pressure gauge so it's possible. I will say 65psi felt way soft, but I'm an old school roadie, so I'm still adjusting to this new plush world.
I have been using the clincher version for over a year now, and I can say they are the best tyres I have used. Not one single puncture. I use them with latex or tpu tubes.
Michelin tires have been fantastic for me. I use clinchers and run 25mm on a 17mm internal width..great grip, smooth and reliable. Maybe try your 30mm on a narrower rim width?
Good God....Clincher tire..tube..NO BURPING,SEALANT,POWDER FOR THE SEALANT,LEAKING ON RIDE,NEEDING A POWER POINT CLASS ON PRESSURES...i can run 100 psi if i want to..i run 80 and fix with a 20 cent rema patch..ive seen 2 snake bites in 45 years of riding..thank you for reaffirming my decision that what worked in my 20s still works in my 70s!! 😃😃😃
You can be unpicky about pressure with tubeless if you want to. It's really not complicated. That said, I'm in goathead country and I'm happy I'm not getting 3-4 flats a week anymore. I still get the goatheads in my tires but I pluck them out and they seal right up without issue.
Burping is so much worse when it expells sealant. Used to love the Michelin power competition some years back, it had really good performance but was slightly cut prone. Great video, cheers
Great video, looking forward to your thoughts on TPU tubes! When you set up tubeless it would be good to see you try and mount with a track pump first so we can see how user friendly the tyre is. Personally, I won't use a tubeless tyre that can't be seated with a track pump.
@@Mapdec I use Hutchinson and Pirelli on my gravel bike, both mounted without levers and inflated with my £5 track pump from Aldi, didn't even need to remove the valve cores.
Please do the PSI video. My new "French" Pirelli P Zero Race TLR's recommend 80 PSI, while the SRAM calculator indicates the correct pressures are 62 + 66 PSI. Bit of a difference there.
7:13 If the rest would be loosening I would remove it all. but I guess it wasn't Tapes to avoid: Schwalbe( tried it), Continental. both tear easily, adhesive failure, dry adhesive. I had horrible experience with Schwalbe tape but read the same issues in customer reviews of Continental tape, probably same tape just rebranded. I suspect the tape you got there might be the same tape, as it came loose as badly. would be interesting to see how it holds up. was this tape taped well? Was it just bad tape? Which tape is this?
You mention a chart which gives recommended pressure for given rim widths, tyre width and body weight. Where can I find this? I've bought a pair of Zipp 303 Firecrests but am yet to fit tyres on them. As I'm over 90kg I'm concerned about tyre choice and I suspect the MIchelin Power Road TLRs I bought during Covid will not be appropriate. Great, useful video and looking forward to Part 2.
Thanks for the rapid response, you're up early! Yes, well aware of the SRAM/Zipp website. The problem is really akin to what you've raised in this video, ie the tension between the manufacturer's recommendations, where they exist, and reality. I've also got a pair of Challenge Strada Bianca Pro 30mm, which Enve say are compatible with their hookless wheels but Challenge say not. Presumably best to err on the safe side. I'm thinking of getting a pair of Pirelli P Zero Race TLRs (Speedcore), which seem to be the best of all worlds. No availability of 32mm here in Australia, however. Btw, love your output and am saving for a Time ADHX on the basis of your review. The Look 765 Optimum is a close second but is more expensive over here.Keep up your great work.@@Mapdec
I have them in size 28mm mounted on Zipp 404 Firecrest hookless with 23mm width. Running with Revoloop tubes 58/56 psi Rear/front and they feel great and super grippy. I'm 69/72 kg, depending what race is in sight. This set up (changed only tubes) was installed on my bike originally... (Van Rysel RCR) . Now I have some doubts is it safe :D
Excellent Part 1, although you're not selling me on tubeless😂. What is it with cycling products manufacturers and QA/QC? That mistake regarding max advised pressures should never have slipped through with a company the size of Michelin (even more concerning was that they tried to brush you off on your first approach). Looking forward to seeing how you get on with the TPU tubes.
Anything liquid = high maintenance cleanup work + high chance of it getting messy. That is why i always use clinchers and no tubeless. With TPU tubes nowadays, clinchers are a no brainer. Same goes for FDM 3D printers vs resin 3D printers. Looking forward to part 2 with the Michelin Power CUP clinchers.
I've just installed the tires in 30mm on my Shimano ultegra c50 21mm rims. Setup was easy and they held the same pressure for half a day without sealant. I added 50ml of silca sealant and just finished a fast group ride and the tires are superb regarding comfort. I run 65psi and cornering is fine. Since it was a bit wet i have not tested cornering agressively but i'm certainly feeling the added comfort although the pirelli pzero race were already quite supple. I will race on these tires once they are worn in and report my findings.
I have tried tubeless twice on my road bike & will never go there again, both times ended up with looooong walks to get back. I have run These tyres in a 28mm with latex tubes for years & never had any problems with them. Even when I weighed 100kg I ran them at 80psi & they felt fine.
I have the same issue right now, already trying third time to set up tubeless with Stan sealant on my backwheel - front went just fine - sealed @ 1st try, but I have the same issue as you do on my back wheel. I mean - leaking about 0.6 bar every 60 minutes or something. I'm literally right now giving the Michelin last try, then swapping out for Veloflex
So probably a totally noob question (and I apologize for that) but if I have a (carbon disc brake) wheel which is 19mm internally and 27mm externally, I assume it´s the internal/inner width I have to consider when deciding the tire pressure?
Honestly…I appreciate that the (profit before people….) Corporations behind todays bike industry are pushing tubeless..fat tyres..wide rims..etc etc etc. Totally user unfriendly! Stupid high cost and if we are honest ,not really developed and tested enough before rolling out( rather like a recent medical intervention ). Loving 700x25 tyres on my Pinarello f8 rim brake Road Bike. Yes I ride tubeless on my Gravel and Mountain Bike. Works fine. FFS.
Totally. Innovation is moving faster than quality control and market demand. As a bike shop we keep informed and practised on latest tech. Still feels like there is a big gap before tubeless on road bikes is a common as it in MTB.
@@Mapdec Give Latex a go in a wider tire, with (lower) pressure. The Ride Now Tpu's are about six bucks each, and so light, one can carry 3 spares easily.
@@MapdecWhile you're trying TPU tubes, try covering the tube and inside of the tyre with a healthy amount of talc powder (also known as talcum/talkum). In my experience, it really makes the ride supple and lowers rolling resistance to a point where I can't see how tubeless is worth it unless you get many small punctures that the sealant can handle. Looking forward to the next video 👍🏻
Yah looks like tubeless are soooooo much easier. Tube tires are lighter, tubes weigh next to nothing, weigh less than the fluid, tubes only use .05 Watts. Great demonstration of why I will never use tubeless.
Question: what’s so special about these tyres that they invite this type of inquiry? Are they super supple, light weight, super low rolling resistance? What’s their selling point?
@@Mapdec ha, can I suggest a Tyre to look into? Rene Herse Rat Tyres like Barlow Pass for gravel mixed terrain. No knobbies.. Premium Tyre maybe controversial.
@@Mapdec its not a problem, i just ordered the power cup tlrs in 28 and ran into the recommended pressure issue. i'll just put them on and try for myself ;)
If that happens. Just give up. It will cause more problems. Best case you get a road side puncture you can’t fix. Worst case the rim is damaged. Easily done. Either from lever itself or shear impact force of bead seating
@@dickieblench5001 Interesting I think they also used talc for tubes, long ago, like before we were born. Higher temps might help too, garages are often cold...
@@Mapdec Is there any logic to the Look model numbering? I know where I am with Defy/TCR or Domane/Madone etc but the assorted numbers I always have to go look it up
I was a very early tubeless road adept back in 2017. Never had a problem with them, until I left a bike for a few months, came back, and couldn't reseal them anymore. For someone who has several bikes and switches between them, tubeless is a terrible idea. I need a bike to work after I leave it alone for a few months. Back to tubes for me.
28mm Gp5000 s TR with Vittoria inserts on 21mm hooked internal is the best ibe found. Running tubeless without inserts above 70km/hr scares me too much. You should try the new gp5000 AS TR, about 2-2.5 watts per tire more resistance but much better grip and puncture rating. For most non-ra ing riders, this would be ideal.
Running power cups on 2 wheelsets since March. One is an aluminium 18mm inner width hooked rim. 25mm front and rear, pressure 90 and 100psi. The other is carbon 19mm width, 25 and 28mm, with 90psi front and rear. Had 1 puncture which sealed on the road. No issues and what really amazes me is that they hold pressure for almost a week. In my opinion the best tl tires on the market. Noticed that you are super careful about not putting them over the max pressure, which i am little surprised of.. I don't know any of my fellow mechanics who can seat a regular tube type Durano + without overinflating these bastards, can you? It's normal to have them a few minutes over their recommended pressure and while that, you should play around, shake, throw and spin them to make sure they are boomproof seated, ready and save to use for the customer. Never had a tl blow off (5y personal road tl experience) but have to say i didn't touched hookless systems yet.
We don’t exceed maximum pressures, torque or tensions here. I have seen failures from all. If something isn’t seated before you hit max pressure, something is wrong. Rim diameter, tyre irregularity , or rim tape.
it all seams a bit hit am miss with tubeless depending on rim and tyre combo, i have Mavic kysrium elite disc wheels with schwalbe pro one tle, and i use orange endurance seal, . being 97 kg i run them at 80 psi, and i have never had an issue with them.
For rim-brakes it's really hard to find anything *wider* than 19c alloy rims at this point, beyond heavy touring rims. Even somewhat lightweight alloy 19c is hard to find (most light ones are between 18mm and 19mm inner width).
No one who cares about performance is buying rim brake wheels, or alloy rims. It’s a legacy thing - you can’t reasonably go much wider anyway as many rim brake calipers won’t work well for wider external rims anyway.
@@TheWoogeroo Single-pivot calipers, direct-mount and cantilevers can fit up to 50mm tires, and cantis can go even bigger easily. It's just the dual-pivot design that is unable to accommodate bigger tires. Even though I ride sturdy steel frames, I *do* care about performance, and I don't want 600g overly-heavy rims. I want 500g or even lighter rims. Good rim-brake aluminum rims are actually lighter than many carbon rims today, and they cost a fraction of the price.
I keep dropping hints, milKit sealant! That Caffélatex looks way too thin. I've never had to pull a tyre and reseat it with milKit, even with an alloy rim and rough internal butt joint.
i've been using the milkit valves but had a terrible experience with their sealant, didn't seal at all...even with somethign small or with plugs...other sealants much better ( though might have been a one off..)
@global_nomad. I've never had a sealant that seals over anything but a small-ish hole AND hold road tyre pressures. I like milKit as it's thicker than most (Silca is awfully thin and the fibres end up sticking inside the tyre) so it seals the tyre bead really well so I only have to add a few psi here and there. If I do get a puncture, I just pop the bead, wipe the inside of the tyre (milKit doesn't dry out) and whack on a patch. It's been the least inconvenient sealant for me, but TPU *may* be worth a try on some new carbon wheels, just so I can compare.
This stuff does my head in and I'm a guy that gets paid to think all day :-) I'm actually in a weird situation where I have an older bike (just over 10 years old, I guess) and I've decided to upgrade it rather than buy a new bike. I've got rim brakes with no possibility of upgrading to disc and I'm more interested in longevity over performance so... looking at aluminium rims. If I'm going to have a dinosaur, might as well go full dinosaur. And this has led me to the realisation that practically 17 mm inner rim width is as wide as it gets (I don't understand it, but I *guess* to accommodate rim brake clearance???). Been looking at all the numbers and thinking... Is this going to be a significant limitation? Lots of wheels in this category (especially higher end ones) are 15 mm. How does that affect me? Should I even think about going tubeless at all, or really embrace my inner dinosaur? This video has definitely shed a lot of light on the subject for me. I'm really quite worried about finding tyres for the next 10 years! But information like you're showing is slowly starting to help crystalise the picture for me. Thanks!
No worries. With rim brakes if you go too wide then the calipers need to be wide open and you loose some leverage efficiency in braking. You should be ok for 28mm tyres for a long time yet, but I suspect 25mm and narrower will become less common.
I have these tires in a 28mm size. They roll quite smoothly, though I personally prefer the suppleness of the GP5000, based solely on my own experience. These are my first attempt at road tubeless tires (and my last). After approximately 500km with these set up tubeless, I'm going right back to using tubes. I had them inflated to around 70PSI, and my Stan's NoTubes sealant simply leaked through the small puncture hole and sprayed out like a severed artery. I just can't deal with the hassle and mess of tubeless tires-the constant need to refill sealant, the expense of it, the requirement for special valves, and the specialized rim tape (which becomes especially problematic when truing carbon spokes, as it must be removed and replaced). Plus, as someone mentioned in the comments, you still need to carry a spare tube regardless. For what it's worth, I'm also not a fan of the TUP Aliexpress tubes. I've gone through about 10 of them so far, and each one has punctured after just a few rides (I'm not particularly heavy, and I've never encountered this issue with Butyl tubes, although they do feel more robust). My conclusion is that while tubeless setups may work well for mountain biking and gravel riding, for road cycling, it's best to stick with tubes.
My 30mm are still going well, but the performance has dropped off a lot. I have new 28mm on the 785 now. These PowerCups are wicked fast when new and dry, once that box fresh moment has passed they fall away fast.
I will not use hookless rims or road tubeless on my road bike. OK on my mountain bike and gravel bike. Not on the road bike. I have the same issue with overlap of max and recommended pressure.
I was running a 28mm of the TLR on a 25/31 rim and the tread was so narrow I was sliding out on the brand stamp in crits and had issues with premature wear due to the sidewall being in contact with the ground a ton. I was running the tire around 65-70 psi. I really liked the tire for just ridding but I can’t see any reason to use these of gp5000sTRs
@@Mapdec my Propel 2021 says that max tyre is 26mm, but looking at the spacing I think I can easily get 28mm on there, so when these wear I will go for 28mm. You were correct on the pressures, on today's ride I dropped from my 70PSI and felt a better ride with what I said above 🙌😎🇫🇮
@@richardhutchings1980 Hi yes we have identical frames, this is great news. I will move to 28mm when these wear out. Appreciate the feedback Richard 🙌😎
This shows how much of pain tubeless for the road bikes really are. Messy and unreliable! It's just not worth it! In this season I rode more than 2000 km on tubes without single puncture.
No. These Michelins are a very fun and fast tyre, but they have a narrow window compared to a Pirelli. I think if I can get these power cups dialled in they will be amazing.
People keep pushing beyond the limit and then blame the equipment. Too narrow tire, too wide rim, too heavy rider, too much pressure, and then everyones all "oh tubeless is garbage". Ive been running road tubeless for years, and its bombproof reliable, easy to set up and maintain, and performs perfectly. My secret? Im not pushing any limits. Normal width rims, normal width tires, resonable pressures in the middle of the range. Just perfect for cruising along at 50kph.
@Mapdec are we to completely ignore the psi max min on the tyre walls and go by the website? And then add in the wheel dimensions. I'm waiting for some 25mm width (external) carbon rims. That'll also have a max pressure to them. So how do I workout what's best and importantly, what's safe?
@@chriscross5689 don’t ignore what’s written on the tyre. That’s the really important bit. In this video I have questioned the recommendations for pressure for performance bassed on my weight. I absolutely followed the Min and Max pressures for safety. A 25mm tyre would need a narrow 15 or 17mm internal rim to be safe.
Thanks. As far as I can read from the dealer book the compound is a blend of synthetic and natural. It’s a good question though. I will see what I can dig up.
All that palaver to run tubeless???? I have a Giant tcr with hookless tubeless rims, hate them, bought another set of hooked rims and running with tpu tubes, happy bunny now and no crap sealant everywhere!!
I think you are giving Michelin a little too much credit with the pressure recommendation on the website. Just a ball park, but they don’t know what you’re actual ride setup will be
If tyre manufacturers are producing tubeless tyres with porous side walls, relying on sealant to do the job, then the published tyre weights are wrong! If that tyre takes goes of 50ml of sealant,then that weight needs to be included!
@@TheMoodyedge If I get a puncture once a year I'd be unhappy ...but then again I do live in Southern Spain .. I think this video has convinced me never to go tubeless !
I have found the whole tubeless thing to be faff. Not really good even on mountain bikes. Way more maintenance, and PITA. The rear on my mountain bikes get a Tannus tubed insert. Everything else just gets tubes. I am more than willing to put up with the slight weight sacrifice in favor of reliability. The tubeless trend is a solution for a problem that never existed.
Tubeless is good till it's not, And when it does fail it fails in style often leaving you stranded. Personally for a rider that rides on there own I think id just stick with tubes BUT you are on borrowed time with high end Tyers. Soon they will all be tubeless only, if you want to run racing tiers and soon I suspect they'll all be hookless only may take 5 years maybe 10 but it's going that way. In regards to Michelin they really screwed to pooch with these, there biggest problem is there sizing and Tread cap. Tubeless is dependant on so many factors such as rims
Terrible quality, I had 2 tyres where cracks developed in the tread, the replacements lost air at a rate that made them unusable. All 4 ended up in the bin, never again. Switched to Pirelli P Zero's and they've been recalled, I just can't win!
First of all hookless on a road bike one of the biggest BS in the bike industry. Sorry if I offended someone with that, it's a fact. Second, these tires are superb. I had them for about 2.5k km, excelent grip and really fast tires. At one point my front tire blew up on the sidewall and after a few more rides the rear one blew up also on the sidewall. The sidewalls are really poor on them. Important to notice is I have 68kg i I ran them aprox 85psi on non hookless rims. Contis 5000S TR on the other hand are a bit faster in my opinion but their protection is even weaker. Not on the sidewalls, but on the rolling surface. Thrashed like 3 contis when not even close to being worn out. Both really expensive tires but they are simply too thin and cause too much frustration. At the end I found that a more robust and heavier Contis 5000AS TR (or something like Pirelli 4S) are the best soultion for us recreational cyclist who want to have tubeless, go fast and have minimal issues. Cheers!
Love my hookless wheels. I'm definitely never buying another hooked wheel ever again and gradually selling my hooked wheel collection as I replace them with better wheels
@stibra101 wheels ride better with a wider internal width. You can get that same width with hooks but then you're getting extra weight and a weaker rim in the case of bottoming out your tire. Tires on a hookless wheel ride like a tire one size up due to the bigger air volume from having a hookless rim. And it doesn't hurt that they're cheaper. It's rare that an innovation results in lower wheel prices but that's what's happened
@@veganpotterthevegan the bike industry got you. I run Duke baccara sls2 ultra 36 with cx ray spokes and dt swiss 240 hubs - 1275g with valves and tape at 21mm internal width. 1500 euros for a set. Hookless is not cheaper and it's utter bs. Max pressure at 5bars and you can't even run a tube if something happens to the tire? That's one step backwards. The only small benefit is the rim is stronger on direct hits (which never ever happens on a road wheel expect you get a flat) and it's a slightly more aero which you don't feel I guarantee you that. Don't get me wrong, I usually like the new stuff the industry has to offer but hookless on road and cables through headset on mtb is something which should never get through.
Why so much faffing around? Just check if a synthetic or a natural latex (or even latex free?) sealant is recommended for the tyre compound and then just put >60 ml in the tyre. Maybe even top it up after the first ride if the tyre has very porous sidewalls. 40 ml... that's just asking for problems! Of course if you're Tadej Pogacar racing up Alpe D'Huez you can save some grams on your sealant, but for normal use?! You are running an nonsense endurance bike with 1 by, but then you use 3 drops of sealant in a new tyre and wonder why they leak...
@Mapdec nah, unless you are chasing every gram, 40ml is just an unnecessary low level of sealant, especially in something bigger like a 30c. It's not like 60 or 80 ml would hurt your rolling resistance and it gives you just so much more wiggle room when it comes to punctures and maintenance. Especially in a fresh tyre, which will always absorb a bit of sealant with the first " base coating" that forms. When it comes to fast endurance bikes, bring them on! But keep your SRAM 1-by. Good for MTB, Cyclocross and maybe TT. Just stupid and pointless on a road bike.
@Mapdec ...and a poor chain line and bad efficiency. A 10 or a 9 tooth cog is just a mechanical joke. But then I guess engineering in the cycling industry as a whole is a joke anyway
Okay, I watched about 7 min of this video. Then the "logical gears" started turning in my head. Now, this tubeless idea has been trying to infiltrate the skinny tire sector for almost 10 years now. These are bicycles . These are not rocket ships. You, dear sir, are obligated to be fully involved with assisting customers who are caught up in the fog and unrefined limitless possibility of failure using this flawed " tubeless" idea. For the logical man (and woman), we will continue to use what has worked for over a hundred years. Tubes inside of tires or tubular. Way too much effort is being placed on a failed idea. Modern tire and tubes are so much better than ever in history. The pro peleton is still winning with tubes inside of tires. Please show some logic to your audience, emphasize the success rate of tubes inside of tires opposed to the general failure of tubeless.
Maybe. I would say that we are leaving the early adopters stage of road tubleless uptake and the bigger market is stumbling. You are right, I make sure I am up to date and informed to serve my customer requests.
@@Nico-jt8ll 1 puncture per year and 5 min to replace the tube or just put sticker on the hole. Or easier to use Vittoria Pitstop if in hurry. So simple. No dirty mess with tu beless, bad tires and danger to get tire of.
@stibra101 I wish I got one puncture a year. Here in Utah, we have goatheads to deal with. 3-4 flats a week before I went tubeless. I still get the same number of goatheads in my tires but I just pluck them out and keep riding. I'm also riding high performance tires all the time now when I used to ride conti 4 seasons(I probably have close 200k miles on conti 4 seasons) to prevent flats(largely unsuccessfully).
I always get pissed off when I see UA-camrs who teach tubeless setup in their own way. In this case, adding sealant with a syringe (an unnecessarily advertised product) to a unbead tire. Bike mechanics with a lot of practice with tubeless mounts can afford this. But not beginners. That's why there is so much confusion and silly videos, what a mess tubeless setup is. Well, Schwalbe made such a good video, but someone always has to be smarter. ua-cam.com/video/sV7cQqwL_BQ/v-deo.html
I think the bike industry should stop looking to motorcycle and automobile tech and go back to being inspired by aerospace tech. The current standards are not confidence inspiring, and just not practical. The standards for the automobile and motorcycle industry just don’t make the grade.
Shake the bloody wheel when you put the sealant in. Don’t spin them. Rotate 10 degrees, shake, rotate 10 degrees, shake. All the way around. Then turn them over and do the same again.
Also, the best place I’ve seen for recommended pressures is the SRAM tyre pressure calculator. I always go off the WET settings and still -5 psi from that.
@@Mapdec I can’t stress how important shaking the wheel is. It’s the only way sealant will get to the bead. IMO the Michelin are way behind in terms of the rim fitment and there are too many better tyres out there. The new made in Italy Pirelli P Zero TLR are fantastic. One of the best out there for resiliency and speed. The S-works turbo 2bliss are good too.
When a seasoned mechanic can't figure out tubeless tire pressures and has to call the rep... is when I feel vindicated thinking tubeless is silly non-sense.
I appreciate you running through these tyre's for us they ain't cheap so it's good to get a trustworthy person giving an opinion.
Thanks. It’s becoming a pretty complicated purchase these days.
Trustworthy but not without bias and not without skewed sensibilities at times.
After having a number of problems with punctures not sealing and hving to prematurely bin a few tyres, I am going back to tubes, even on my gravel bike. Looking forward to part 2.
Just too much faff. For road, I'm back to tubes.
Yep, I agree. Tubeless for Road is a solution for a problem which doesn’t exist. I run tubeless on both my gravel bike and mountain bike, but for my road bikes I’m still running inner tubes, either latex or TPU.
@@paddyotoole2058then why you use them on the other bikes when they have no use??? lol
totally agree, inner tubes are so much simpler.
hmmm - not yet sold on tubeless for road tyres.
They've been much better than tubes for a good 5-7yrs now.
Me neithet
Modern TL tires and sealants are monster efficient and easy to setup - once you know how
After watching this video, I would be surprised if anyone is sold on road tubeless. What a faff!
I have the Michelin Power Cup clincher only tires....probably my favorite fast road specific tire I've ever used. They're wonderful.
I've tried them out myself, quite in doubt, as I expected them to be extremely fragile on poor quality mountain roads. Surprisingly enough, they were flawless for over 3.000 km, and in spite of some superficial cuts, they never punctured and they are still going quite strong. Probably not as resilient in extreme conditions as my previously-favourite tyres, the Panaracer Evo 4 Type D (or the Type A for what it's worth), but much nicer to ride and a tiny bit faster. That being said, I've just ordered a second pair.
You sure demonstrated why I wasn't interested in going tubeless on my road bike. To improve rolling resistance and reduced weight I have gone with Continental GP5000 and RideNow TPU tubes but stuck with the original 32c tyre width. For me the death nail for tubeless was reading a recommendation of carrying a spare inner tube.
My bike has frame storage, so with the RideNow TPU tube compact size, I can put two tubes in that storage and still save weight over one butyl tube. At least on the roads that I ride, the hassle and regular maintenance requirement for tubeless, hardly seems worth it. Thanks for your work.
Good comment. Thank you.
Probably the reason I went back to tubulars 😅 on Elite & Deerobust carbon wheels, still doing awesome sets. No punctures last 2 seasons and great ride comfort on 28 (Veloflex) road and 32-34 (Tufo) cx for gravel. Let the discussions start 😉
F*@K tubeless tires on a road bike! What a headache! Yes, I run tubulars on my event wheels and Gatorskin clinchers on everyday carbon clinchers and rarely have a flat or an issue other than replacing them when they are worn.
Seriously? You do know these are just a couple of bike tyres, not an Open University project? All the reasons I gave up on tubeless after 2 years of trying encapsulated in a 20 minn video. Brilliant.
Tubeless isn't really suitable for road due to the pressures involved, unless you are riding something over 30 mm
Had them in 28 mm on Fulcrum racing DB wheels for a season, tubless, hooked, my weight is 86 kg and I ran them at 45-47 PSI. Did not skip a beat, no punctures, used for light gravel even, seated with floor pump, loved them, very sticky in dry, bad when wet and very supple and comfortable. Guess some combinations just work whilst others do not. 🤷🏻♂️
I had the exact same experience. I have 28c tubeless on 21 mm holowgram wheels. I've had no punctures and no other issues. They ride smoothly and don't skip a beat. They're fast and beautiful (in the beige). @mapdec
The bird is a Red Kite as i an sure you know. Wonderful to see them in our skies again. Reintroduced from Spanish stock i believe and thriving now Colonel Blimps gamekeepers are no longer blasting them with their Purdys.
Yes. It was amazing to one. Such graceful flyers
Great video and content👍🏽 Also reassures me why i dont do Tubeless, looks like such a faff tbh, i just get on my Power Cup clinchers and off i go, barely any air lost, no flats recently 🤷🏽 the cycling world has gone bonkers 😆 but keeep up the great work, you're one of the more/most interesting people on YT, my Giant Contend 1 is custom built by myself so I'm always looking for tips!👍🏽
Thank you
Thank god I use tubes and clinchers. I pump them up and go out for a ride, let them gradually go softer, ignore it, go for a load of rides. Eventually I pump them up again. And go for a load of rides. Magic. No sealant, no weird powder, no waving tyres and wheels around, no confusing tables of specs. You should try it, it's great.
As long as I can still get tubular tyres they have served me for many years same price
My head is still spinning, 🙄I will watch again and pay closer attention. Thanks for the EVT tools tip, they are a neighbor of sorts, just across the mighty Columbia River, outrageous rides in the Columbia Gorge. Again, good job as usual. Your idea on "free" upgrades is a good one. Have a great rest of your evening.
Thank you. Sorry this one got a bit mythic
12:25 I like to rest my freshly tubeless wheels facing up/down for an hour or two with a little spin to settle sealant against the rim walls, instead of swishing and bouncing. I've had more luck this way.
4:50 Damn I didn't get my UA-cam-issued inflator yet lol. 😅
Sure it won’t be long.
Great video and information as usual
Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you
Paul as you so often emphasise the physical compatibility / parameters between tyre and rim is crucial. Still very much a work in progress for the bike industry. Reminiscent of initial problems with in use rim leakage on car run flat tyres 20+ years ago. The worrying aspect is the communication of technical understanding to Joe Public and their comprehension and adherence to it. So applause for raising awareness on the topic …….. but for my own uses clinchers and tubes on the road for me.
Thanks Kevin. Yes. I think I have said it many times now. The tech is troubled by really poor communication. It probably started when wheel brands just launched hookless without telling any tyre brands 😂
Validation of the insanity of tubeless road😂 Brilliant channel by the way
I'll stick to my GP 5000s clinchers with latex tubes, amazing performance and eaisy to maintain & repair. I don't know if you were setting up tubeless tires or making a protein shake lol!!! 😂😂😂 Great video as always cheers!!!
Are latex tubes worth it can you feel the difference?
@@zedddddful totally worth it! It is the first upgrade anyone on clinchers should do, compared to regular tubes they're lighter and you feel the tires instantly softer and more reactive to your input.
@@csarcpabmagic thank's buddy I'll slap some on my bike then 👌
Normal latex tubes are awesome, but when running one of those thin lightweight latex tubes, be prepared to pump them every 3 hours. Latex can't hold pressure over a full day.
@@Nico-jt8ll I've used the Vittoria latex tubes and they hold air very well each ride. I'd rather pump my tubes to the pressure I want everytime I ride them than deal with shaking tubeless cocktails 😆
Thanks for the thorough deep dive on the mech stuff. Best info available on UA-cam. And props for making Michelin aware of their error in documentation. Which is quite a worry. If you need to calculate rider weight/rim width/tyre size/hooked/hookless/min & Max psi just to mount a tyre I'd want to be sure the manufacturers info was at least correct, otherwise there's no way a consumer can not only get it right, but ride safely. I'll stay with tubes because I'm lazy, but I appreciate the content regardless.
Yeah, I don't use the manufacturer's recommendations (except for their max pressure, which is a safety consideration). For your weight, the SRAM tire pressure guide suggests 63 psi front and 67 psi rear, which lines up really well with your experience.
Yes. The sram guide is better than Michelins own.
13:35... watching that Macbook sitting over the edge, was causing me to twitch. I'm about your weight and I've been running around 75psi with 28c tires (how accurate my gauge is subject to debate).
I never noticed the peril of my max until I copied the SD card. 😂. Have you tried lower pressures?
@@Mapdec I have serious doubts about the accuracy of my Lezyne's pressure gauge so it's possible. I will say 65psi felt way soft, but I'm an old school roadie, so I'm still adjusting to this new plush world.
I love this tyres test them in the rain works well
I have been using the clincher version for over a year now, and I can say they are the best tyres I have used. Not one single puncture. I use them with latex or tpu tubes.
Michelin tires have been fantastic for me. I use clinchers and run 25mm on a 17mm internal width..great grip, smooth and reliable. Maybe try your 30mm on a narrower rim width?
For sure. 19c rims are getting hard to find these days.
Even if you had several issues with theses tires I'm still not convinced to ever go back to tubes I love tubeless and their ride quality
Nice to see that Michelin are confident in the quality of their product 😂
Good God....Clincher tire..tube..NO BURPING,SEALANT,POWDER FOR THE SEALANT,LEAKING ON RIDE,NEEDING A POWER POINT CLASS ON PRESSURES...i can run 100 psi if i want to..i run 80 and fix with a 20 cent rema patch..ive seen 2 snake bites in 45 years of riding..thank you for reaffirming my decision that what worked in my 20s still works in my 70s!! 😃😃😃
You can be unpicky about pressure with tubeless if you want to. It's really not complicated. That said, I'm in goathead country and I'm happy I'm not getting 3-4 flats a week anymore. I still get the goatheads in my tires but I pluck them out and they seal right up without issue.
Burping is so much worse when it expells sealant. Used to love the Michelin power competition some years back, it had really good performance but was slightly cut prone. Great video, cheers
Well little work for all the benefits on the road. Tubeless definitely worth it. Oh no wait...
Great video, looking forward to your thoughts on TPU tubes!
When you set up tubeless it would be good to see you try and mount with a track pump first so we can see how user friendly the tyre is. Personally, I won't use a tubeless tyre that can't be seated with a track pump.
It’s a good point. Our compressor is only a 6.5 bar max, so not exactly powerful.
@@Mapdec I use Hutchinson and Pirelli on my gravel bike, both mounted without levers and inflated with my £5 track pump from Aldi, didn't even need to remove the valve cores.
I heard great things about the tube type version of these
Yes. Very quick
Where could one acquire that handy little inflator that you used on your ride in this video??
The brand is CycPlus. They will do about 4 tyres. So a bit lighter and easier than 2 bottles of gas.
Please do the PSI video. My new "French" Pirelli P Zero Race TLR's recommend 80 PSI, while the SRAM calculator indicates the correct pressures are 62 + 66 PSI. Bit of a difference there.
You could gain 1-2 watts per tyre at 80 psi, on good roads, and maybe lose some comfort... that's the difference I suppose.
The more I see about tubeless and the faff it comes with, the less I am inclined to give it a try. My latex tubes are always "sealing" all around.
7:13 If the rest would be loosening I would remove it all. but I guess it wasn't
Tapes to avoid: Schwalbe( tried it), Continental. both tear easily, adhesive failure, dry adhesive. I had horrible experience with Schwalbe tape but read the same issues in customer reviews of Continental tape, probably same tape just rebranded. I suspect the tape you got there might be the same tape, as it came loose as badly. would be interesting to see how it holds up. was this tape taped well? Was it just bad tape?
Which tape is this?
You mention a chart which gives recommended pressure for given rim widths, tyre width and body weight. Where can I find this? I've bought a pair of Zipp 303 Firecrests but am yet to fit tyres on them. As I'm over 90kg I'm concerned about tyre choice and I suspect the MIchelin Power Road TLRs I bought during Covid will not be appropriate. Great, useful video and looking forward to Part 2.
All on the SRAM / Zipp website. At 90 kg you will likely need 30 or 32 mm tyres.
Thanks for the rapid response, you're up early! Yes, well aware of the SRAM/Zipp website. The problem is really akin to what you've raised in this video, ie the tension between the manufacturer's recommendations, where they exist, and reality. I've also got a pair of Challenge Strada Bianca Pro 30mm, which Enve say are compatible with their hookless wheels but Challenge say not. Presumably best to err on the safe side. I'm thinking of getting a pair of Pirelli P Zero Race TLRs (Speedcore), which seem to be the best of all worlds. No availability of 32mm here in Australia, however. Btw, love your output and am saving for a Time ADHX on the basis of your review. The Look 765 Optimum is a close second but is more expensive over here.Keep up your great work.@@Mapdec
Seriously! Thanks for the effort and quality review but who could be bothered…tubes all the way man.
Makes you wonder why people bother with tubeless. Also how on earth did you bend the valve in a cafe stop ?
Fell over on someone’s pedal
I used Michelin power cup clincher 28c front and tubeless 30c,no issues bro,excellent tyres
Once they are dialled in they are excellent. Don’t you find they have a very small operating psi window.
I have them in size 28mm mounted on Zipp 404 Firecrest hookless with 23mm width. Running with Revoloop tubes 58/56 psi Rear/front and they feel great and super grippy. I'm 69/72 kg, depending what race is in sight. This set up (changed only tubes) was installed on my bike originally... (Van Rysel RCR) . Now I have some doubts is it safe :D
It would be worth checking the Zipp recommended chart. If i recall Zipp don’t list any Michelin as compatible with their rims.
@@Mapdec in their compatibility chart, for Michelins they say "check with brand for specifics"
Excellent Part 1, although you're not selling me on tubeless😂. What is it with cycling products manufacturers and QA/QC? That mistake regarding max advised pressures should never have slipped through with a company the size of Michelin (even more concerning was that they tried to brush you off on your first approach).
Looking forward to seeing how you get on with the TPU tubes.
Thank you.
Anything liquid = high maintenance cleanup work + high chance of it getting messy.
That is why i always use clinchers and no tubeless. With TPU tubes nowadays, clinchers are a no brainer.
Same goes for FDM 3D printers vs resin 3D printers.
Looking forward to part 2 with the Michelin Power CUP clinchers.
Coming this spring.
I've just installed the tires in 30mm on my Shimano ultegra c50 21mm rims. Setup was easy and they held the same pressure for half a day without sealant. I added 50ml of silca sealant and just finished a fast group ride and the tires are superb regarding comfort. I run 65psi and cornering is fine. Since it was a bit wet i have not tested cornering agressively but i'm certainly feeling the added comfort although the pirelli pzero race were already quite supple. I will race on these tires once they are worn in and report my findings.
What tyres do you recommend for carbon Wheelset. Recommend meaning easy to put on and off.
Loving your videos brilliant content
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I have tried tubeless twice on my road bike & will never go there again, both times ended up with looooong walks to get back. I have run These tyres in a 28mm with latex tubes for years & never had any problems with them. Even when I weighed 100kg I ran them at 80psi & they felt fine.
I have the same issue right now, already trying third time to set up tubeless with Stan sealant on my backwheel - front went just fine - sealed @ 1st try, but I have the same issue as you do on my back wheel. I mean - leaking about 0.6 bar every 60 minutes or something. I'm literally right now giving the Michelin last try, then swapping out for Veloflex
Check the rim tape
So probably a totally noob question (and I apologize for that) but if I have a (carbon disc brake) wheel which is 19mm internally and 27mm externally, I assume it´s the internal/inner width I have to consider when deciding the tire pressure?
Thanks for asking. If you are wondering. I didn’t make it clear. It is the internal width that is important.
I put a small amount of cake glitter with the same sealant
I'm 88kg(85 on a good day) and ride 30s and 32s. I never have them over 65psi. I ride 28s just under 70
Sounds good.
Honestly…I appreciate that the (profit before people….) Corporations behind todays bike industry are pushing tubeless..fat tyres..wide rims..etc etc etc. Totally user unfriendly! Stupid high cost and if we are honest ,not really developed and tested enough before rolling out( rather like a recent medical intervention ). Loving 700x25 tyres on my Pinarello f8 rim brake Road Bike. Yes I ride tubeless on my Gravel and Mountain Bike. Works fine. FFS.
Totally. Innovation is moving faster than quality control and market demand. As a bike shop we keep informed and practised on latest tech. Still feels like there is a big gap before tubeless on road bikes is a common as it in MTB.
For me, as a road rider, i am riding latex tubes, and carrying Ride Now TPU for spares. Again this seems smpiler to me. Cheers.
Trying this is part 2. It’s been probably 6 years since I used latex tubes. Let’s see if TPU can switch me off tubeless.
@@Mapdec Give Latex a go in a wider tire, with (lower) pressure. The Ride Now Tpu's are about six bucks each, and so light, one can carry 3 spares easily.
@@MapdecWhile you're trying TPU tubes, try covering the tube and inside of the tyre with a healthy amount of talc powder (also known as talcum/talkum). In my experience, it really makes the ride supple and lowers rolling resistance to a point where I can't see how tubeless is worth it unless you get many small punctures that the sealant can handle.
Looking forward to the next video 👍🏻
@@SimonHBS lube the tube. Reduce frictional losses. 👍
Yah looks like tubeless are soooooo much easier. Tube tires are lighter, tubes weigh next to nothing, weigh less than the fluid, tubes only use .05 Watts.
Great demonstration of why I will never use tubeless.
Question: what’s so special about these tyres that they invite this type of inquiry? Are they super supple, light weight, super low rolling resistance? What’s their selling point?
Because this community of comments bullied me into it 😂
@@Mapdec ha, can I suggest a Tyre to look into? Rene Herse Rat Tyres like Barlow Pass for gravel mixed terrain. No knobbies.. Premium Tyre maybe controversial.
was there ever a part 2?
I really should get round to making that. Sorry
@@Mapdec its not a problem, i just ordered the power cup tlrs in 28 and ran into the recommended pressure issue. i'll just put them on and try for myself ;)
I still have nightmares about Michelin tyres; long time ago the pair I had wouldn’t fit on campy wheels without a two man attack crew
If that happens. Just give up. It will cause more problems. Best case you get a road side puncture you can’t fix. Worst case the rim is damaged. Easily done. Either from lever itself or shear impact force of bead seating
Talcum powder works wonders. Just put some in your hand and run the bead through tyres will slip on easily
@@dickieblench5001 Interesting I think they also used talc for tubes, long ago, like before we were born.
Higher temps might help too, garages are often cold...
@@DR_1_1 Talc completely gets rid of the stickiness of a new tyre especially on the bead
Thanks for the tip, the inflator. Needs a EU distributor, else importing is too much hassle unfortunately.
The only thing this does, once again, is reconfirm just how unworthy tubeless is for road use. But I appreciate you doing that for us.
Did you do a part 2? I cant find it.
I’m making it now. Winter got in the way. I have a bike with 30c tubeless and a bike with 28c TPU Michelins on.
Great, thank you. I'm looking for some decent clinchers for the summer and are drawn towards these.
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024, 09:31 YouT
Ryot 55 on an endurance cruiser? I thought you were more of an advocate for the 44? Or is there not that much difference?
Yeah. I got a killer deal on some 55s and just rolled with it. I think these will go on the 795 when it arrives and the 40 Corimas will go on the 765
@@Mapdec Is there any logic to the Look model numbering? I know where I am with Defy/TCR or Domane/Madone etc but the assorted numbers I always have to go look it up
I was a very early tubeless road adept back in 2017. Never had a problem with them, until I left a bike for a few months, came back, and couldn't reseal them anymore. For someone who has several bikes and switches between them, tubeless is a terrible idea. I need a bike to work after I leave it alone for a few months. Back to tubes for me.
28mm Gp5000 s TR with Vittoria inserts on 21mm hooked internal is the best ibe found. Running tubeless without inserts above 70km/hr scares me too much. You should try the new gp5000 AS TR, about 2-2.5 watts per tire more resistance but much better grip and puncture rating. For most non-ra ing riders, this would be ideal.
Running power cups on 2 wheelsets since March. One is an aluminium 18mm inner width hooked rim. 25mm front and rear, pressure 90 and 100psi.
The other is carbon 19mm width, 25 and 28mm, with 90psi front and rear. Had 1 puncture which sealed on the road. No issues and what really amazes me is that they hold pressure for almost a week. In my opinion the best tl tires on the market.
Noticed that you are super careful about not putting them over the max pressure, which i am little surprised of.. I don't know any of my fellow mechanics who can seat a regular tube type Durano + without overinflating these bastards, can you?
It's normal to have them a few minutes over their recommended pressure and while that, you should play around, shake, throw and spin them to make sure they are boomproof seated, ready and save to use for the customer. Never had a tl blow off (5y personal road tl experience) but have to say i didn't touched hookless systems yet.
We don’t exceed maximum pressures, torque or tensions here. I have seen failures from all. If something isn’t seated before you hit max pressure, something is wrong. Rim diameter, tyre irregularity , or rim tape.
Understandable 😊
Hey, little bit random question related to look 765 tyre clearance, can i fit 35c tires on 22mm internal rim width, wii it fit? Thanks!
35 would be really pushing it. 32mm would be fine.
whats the name of that micro inflater?
u like it?
it all seams a bit hit am miss with tubeless depending on rim and tyre combo, i have Mavic kysrium elite disc wheels with schwalbe pro one tle, and i use orange endurance seal, . being 97 kg i run them at 80 psi, and i have never had an issue with them.
You don’t mention the sizes of rim and tyre. If you got that right you shouldn’t have a problem.
@@Mapdec hi sorry. 19 rim and 28 tyre
@@stephentait8734 perfect combo 👍
For rim-brakes it's really hard to find anything *wider* than 19c alloy rims at this point, beyond heavy touring rims. Even somewhat lightweight alloy 19c is hard to find (most light ones are between 18mm and 19mm inner width).
No one who cares about performance is buying rim brake wheels, or alloy rims.
It’s a legacy thing - you can’t reasonably go much wider anyway as many rim brake calipers won’t work well for wider external rims anyway.
@@TheWoogeroo Single-pivot calipers, direct-mount and cantilevers can fit up to 50mm tires, and cantis can go even bigger easily. It's just the dual-pivot design that is unable to accommodate bigger tires. Even though I ride sturdy steel frames, I *do* care about performance, and I don't want 600g overly-heavy rims. I want 500g or even lighter rims. Good rim-brake aluminum rims are actually lighter than many carbon rims today, and they cost a fraction of the price.
Roval SLX24 have 20mm
I keep dropping hints, milKit sealant! That Caffélatex looks way too thin.
I've never had to pull a tyre and reseat it with milKit, even with an alloy rim and rough internal butt joint.
i've been using the milkit valves but had a terrible experience with their sealant, didn't seal at all...even with somethign small or with plugs...other sealants much better ( though might have been a one off..)
@global_nomad. I've never had a sealant that seals over anything but a small-ish hole AND hold road tyre pressures.
I like milKit as it's thicker than most (Silca is awfully thin and the fibres end up sticking inside the tyre) so it seals the tyre bead really well so I only have to add a few psi here and there. If I do get a puncture, I just pop the bead, wipe the inside of the tyre (milKit doesn't dry out) and whack on a patch.
It's been the least inconvenient sealant for me, but TPU *may* be worth a try on some new carbon wheels, just so I can compare.
This stuff does my head in and I'm a guy that gets paid to think all day :-) I'm actually in a weird situation where I have an older bike (just over 10 years old, I guess) and I've decided to upgrade it rather than buy a new bike. I've got rim brakes with no possibility of upgrading to disc and I'm more interested in longevity over performance so... looking at aluminium rims. If I'm going to have a dinosaur, might as well go full dinosaur. And this has led me to the realisation that practically 17 mm inner rim width is as wide as it gets (I don't understand it, but I *guess* to accommodate rim brake clearance???). Been looking at all the numbers and thinking... Is this going to be a significant limitation? Lots of wheels in this category (especially higher end ones) are 15 mm. How does that affect me? Should I even think about going tubeless at all, or really embrace my inner dinosaur? This video has definitely shed a lot of light on the subject for me. I'm really quite worried about finding tyres for the next 10 years! But information like you're showing is slowly starting to help crystalise the picture for me. Thanks!
No worries. With rim brakes if you go too wide then the calipers need to be wide open and you loose some leverage efficiency in braking. You should be ok for 28mm tyres for a long time yet, but I suspect 25mm and narrower will become less common.
I have these tires in a 28mm size. They roll quite smoothly, though I personally prefer the suppleness of the GP5000, based solely on my own experience. These are my first attempt at road tubeless tires (and my last). After approximately 500km with these set up tubeless, I'm going right back to using tubes. I had them inflated to around 70PSI, and my Stan's NoTubes sealant simply leaked through the small puncture hole and sprayed out like a severed artery. I just can't deal with the hassle and mess of tubeless tires-the constant need to refill sealant, the expense of it, the requirement for special valves, and the specialized rim tape (which becomes especially problematic when truing carbon spokes, as it must be removed and replaced). Plus, as someone mentioned in the comments, you still need to carry a spare tube regardless. For what it's worth, I'm also not a fan of the TUP Aliexpress tubes. I've gone through about 10 of them so far, and each one has punctured after just a few rides (I'm not particularly heavy, and I've never encountered this issue with Butyl tubes, although they do feel more robust). My conclusion is that while tubeless setups may work well for mountain biking and gravel riding, for road cycling, it's best to stick with tubes.
My 30mm are still going well, but the performance has dropped off a lot. I have new 28mm on the 785 now. These PowerCups are wicked fast when new and dry, once that box fresh moment has passed they fall away fast.
what about actual tyres ? any good?
I will not use hookless rims or road tubeless on my road bike. OK on my mountain bike and gravel bike. Not on the road bike. I have the same issue with overlap of max and recommended pressure.
I use this tyre(28) on a 19c rim with 65-70psi
I was running a 28mm of the TLR on a 25/31 rim and the tread was so narrow I was sliding out on the brand stamp in crits and had issues with premature wear due to the sidewall being in contact with the ground a ton. I was running the tire around 65-70 psi. I really liked the tire for just ridding but I can’t see any reason to use these of gp5000sTRs
Yes. They are quite ballon shaped and i don’t think they will work well stretched on a rim too wide
What a balls up by Michelin.
I ride front 19mm (inner) michelin 25mm at 63PSI, rear 21mm (inner) michelin 25mm at 65PSI. Rims Giant SLR1. This is a great ride. I am 81Kg 🇫🇮😎
Why didn’t you get the 28s Dean?
@@Mapdec my Propel 2021 says that max tyre is 26mm, but looking at the spacing I think I can easily get 28mm on there, so when these wear I will go for 28mm.
You were correct on the pressures, on today's ride I dropped from my 70PSI and felt a better ride with what I said above 🙌😎🇫🇮
@DeanPattrick I've got a 2019 disc propel and I can easily fit and do ride 28mm gps on 21mm internal width rims. Should be fine
@@richardhutchings1980 Hi yes we have identical frames, this is great news. I will move to 28mm when these wear out. Appreciate the feedback Richard 🙌😎
This shows how much of pain tubeless for the road bikes really are. Messy and unreliable! It's just not worth it!
In this season I rode more than 2000 km on tubes without single puncture.
In think the point of this video is that Pirelli’s are great… Michelins… not so much.
No. These Michelins are a very fun and fast tyre, but they have a narrow window compared to a Pirelli. I think if I can get these power cups dialled in they will be amazing.
mmm. There are so many good tyres out there, theses seem too much faf!
People keep pushing beyond the limit and then blame the equipment.
Too narrow tire, too wide rim, too heavy rider, too much pressure, and then everyones all "oh tubeless is garbage".
Ive been running road tubeless for years, and its bombproof reliable, easy to set up and maintain, and performs perfectly. My secret? Im not pushing any limits. Normal width rims, normal width tires, resonable pressures in the middle of the range. Just perfect for cruising along at 50kph.
Wise words.
25c on Tubeless work just fine. I've used tubeless on my Bontrager Race Lite roadside for 3 years now without issue. Max clearance is 25c
It does. With the right rim. 👍
After that video. I'm confused.
How can I help?
@Mapdec are we to completely ignore the psi max min on the tyre walls and go by the website? And then add in the wheel dimensions. I'm waiting for some 25mm width (external) carbon rims. That'll also have a max pressure to them. So how do I workout what's best and importantly, what's safe?
@@chriscross5689 don’t ignore what’s written on the tyre. That’s the really important bit. In this video I have questioned the recommendations for pressure for performance bassed on my weight. I absolutely followed the Min and Max pressures for safety. A 25mm tyre would need a narrow 15 or 17mm internal rim to be safe.
I don't get how this amount of faff could ever be acceptable. Put a tube in, and you'll run for 4000km without issue in the summer
It’s our job to execute this work professionally, so we do. It’s a long way from mass adoption
Nothing natural about synthetic rubber, enjoyed the in depth analysis
Thanks. As far as I can read from the dealer book the compound is a blend of synthetic and natural. It’s a good question though. I will see what I can dig up.
All that palaver to run tubeless???? I have a Giant tcr with hookless tubeless rims, hate them, bought another set of hooked rims and running with tpu tubes, happy bunny now and no crap sealant everywhere!!
I think you are giving Michelin a little too much credit with the pressure recommendation on the website. Just a ball park, but they don’t know what you’re actual ride setup will be
Maybe. Although the recommended pressures would be used to select an appropriate tyre width
If tyre manufacturers are producing tubeless tyres with porous side walls, relying on sealant to do the job, then the published tyre weights are wrong! If that tyre takes goes of 50ml of sealant,then that weight needs to be included!
Totally. It’s hard to compare a 330g Pirelli that is air tight to this 295g pours tyre.
What a load of faff ....just use inner tubes !!
Exactly. I maybe get 1 puncture every 6 months max. No big deal. TPU tubes are great.
@@TheMoodyedge If I get a puncture once a year I'd be unhappy ...but then again I do live in Southern Spain .. I think this video has convinced me never to go tubeless !
I have found the whole tubeless thing to be faff. Not really good even on mountain bikes. Way more maintenance, and PITA. The rear on my mountain bikes get a Tannus tubed insert. Everything else just gets tubes. I am more than willing to put up with the slight weight sacrifice in favor of reliability. The tubeless trend is a solution for a problem that never existed.
Tubeless is good till it's not, And when it does fail it fails in style often leaving you stranded. Personally for a rider that rides on there own I think id just stick with tubes BUT you are on borrowed time with high end Tyers. Soon they will all be tubeless only, if you want to run racing tiers and soon I suspect they'll all be hookless only may take 5 years maybe 10 but it's going that way.
In regards to Michelin they really screwed to pooch with these, there biggest problem is there sizing and Tread cap. Tubeless is dependant on so many factors such as rims
Red kite
Terrible quality, I had 2 tyres where cracks developed in the tread, the replacements lost air at a rate that made them unusable. All 4 ended up in the bin, never again. Switched to Pirelli P Zero's and they've been recalled, I just can't win!
New tyres on the way though.
First of all hookless on a road bike one of the biggest BS in the bike industry. Sorry if I offended someone with that, it's a fact.
Second, these tires are superb. I had them for about 2.5k km, excelent grip and really fast tires. At one point my front tire blew up on the sidewall and after a few more rides the rear one blew up also on the sidewall. The sidewalls are really poor on them. Important to notice is I have 68kg i I ran them aprox 85psi on non hookless rims.
Contis 5000S TR on the other hand are a bit faster in my opinion but their protection is even weaker. Not on the sidewalls, but on the rolling surface. Thrashed like 3 contis when not even close to being worn out. Both really expensive tires but they are simply too thin and cause too much frustration.
At the end I found that a more robust and heavier Contis 5000AS TR (or something like Pirelli 4S) are the best soultion for us recreational cyclist who want to have tubeless, go fast and have minimal issues.
Cheers!
Love my hookless wheels. I'm definitely never buying another hooked wheel ever again and gradually selling my hooked wheel collection as I replace them with better wheels
@@veganpotterthevegan LOL, better, how better? :)
@stibra101 wheels ride better with a wider internal width. You can get that same width with hooks but then you're getting extra weight and a weaker rim in the case of bottoming out your tire. Tires on a hookless wheel ride like a tire one size up due to the bigger air volume from having a hookless rim. And it doesn't hurt that they're cheaper. It's rare that an innovation results in lower wheel prices but that's what's happened
@@veganpotterthevegan the bike industry got you. I run Duke baccara sls2 ultra 36 with cx ray spokes and dt swiss 240 hubs - 1275g with valves and tape at 21mm internal width. 1500 euros for a set. Hookless is not cheaper and it's utter bs. Max pressure at 5bars and you can't even run a tube if something happens to the tire? That's one step backwards. The only small benefit is the rim is stronger on direct hits (which never ever happens on a road wheel expect you get a flat) and it's a slightly more aero which you don't feel I guarantee you that. Don't get me wrong, I usually like the new stuff the industry has to offer but hookless on road and cables through headset on mtb is something which should never get through.
@@veganpottertheveganroad hookless are just dangerous I'd never recommend them to my worst enemy.
Why so much faffing around? Just check if a synthetic or a natural latex (or even latex free?) sealant is recommended for the tyre compound and then just put >60 ml in the tyre. Maybe even top it up after the first ride if the tyre has very porous sidewalls. 40 ml... that's just asking for problems! Of course if you're Tadej Pogacar racing up Alpe D'Huez you can save some grams on your sealant, but for normal use?! You are running an nonsense endurance bike with 1 by, but then you use 3 drops of sealant in a new tyre and wonder why they leak...
40 was enough. It just needed some media to close the gaps at the bead. More sealant wouldn’t help that. Fast endurance bikes are awesome. Get on it.
@Mapdec nah, unless you are chasing every gram, 40ml is just an unnecessary low level of sealant, especially in something bigger like a 30c. It's not like 60 or 80 ml would hurt your rolling resistance and it gives you just so much more wiggle room when it comes to punctures and maintenance. Especially in a fresh tyre, which will always absorb a bit of sealant with the first " base coating" that forms.
When it comes to fast endurance bikes, bring them on! But keep your SRAM 1-by. Good for MTB, Cyclocross and maybe TT. Just stupid and pointless on a road bike.
@@MS-bw7yt I like it. It has every gear I need.
@Mapdec ...and a poor chain line and bad efficiency. A 10 or a 9 tooth cog is just a mechanical joke. But then I guess engineering in the cycling industry as a whole is a joke anyway
@@MS-bw7yt you should probably catch up with X-sync and x-sync 2 tech. Things have moved on a bit.
Okay, I watched about 7 min of this video.
Then the "logical gears" started turning in my head.
Now, this tubeless idea has been trying to infiltrate the skinny tire sector for almost 10 years now. These are bicycles . These are not rocket ships. You, dear sir, are obligated to be fully involved with assisting customers who are caught up in the fog and unrefined limitless possibility of failure using this flawed " tubeless" idea.
For the logical man (and woman), we will continue to use what has worked for over a hundred years.
Tubes inside of tires or tubular. Way too much effort is being placed on a failed idea.
Modern tire and tubes are so much better than ever in history. The pro peleton is still winning with tubes inside of tires.
Please show some logic to your audience, emphasize the success rate of tubes inside of tires opposed to the general failure of tubeless.
Maybe. I would say that we are leaving the early adopters stage of road tubleless uptake and the bigger market is stumbling. You are right, I make sure I am up to date and informed to serve my customer requests.
Why even think about tubeless crap? And spend so much time instead of riding?
Cause you just can keep riding, seals itself. You won't even notice it.
Get a puncture with a tube and you're done ☹️
Get the right tire and you never puncture.
@@Nico-jt8ll 1 puncture per year and 5 min to replace the tube or just put sticker on the hole. Or easier to use Vittoria Pitstop if in hurry. So simple. No dirty mess with tu beless, bad tires and danger to get tire of.
@@stibra101 lucky you, man I'm done with tubes, i would get 3 punctures + 1 sidecut a month. Don't have that time and money 😔
@stibra101 I wish I got one puncture a year. Here in Utah, we have goatheads to deal with. 3-4 flats a week before I went tubeless. I still get the same number of goatheads in my tires but I just pluck them out and keep riding. I'm also riding high performance tires all the time now when I used to ride conti 4 seasons(I probably have close 200k miles on conti 4 seasons) to prevent flats(largely unsuccessfully).
I always get pissed off when I see UA-camrs who teach tubeless setup in their own way. In this case, adding sealant with a syringe (an unnecessarily advertised product) to a unbead tire. Bike mechanics with a lot of practice with tubeless mounts can afford this. But not beginners. That's why there is so much confusion and silly videos, what a mess tubeless setup is.
Well, Schwalbe made such a good video, but someone always has to be smarter.
ua-cam.com/video/sV7cQqwL_BQ/v-deo.html
It works for us.
I think the bike industry should stop looking to motorcycle and automobile tech and go back to being inspired by aerospace tech. The current standards are not confidence inspiring, and just not practical. The standards for the automobile and motorcycle industry just don’t make the grade.
Oh. I like that. You are on to something.
Shake the bloody wheel when you put the sealant in. Don’t spin them. Rotate 10 degrees, shake, rotate 10 degrees, shake. All the way around. Then turn them over and do the same again.
Also, the Michelin are quick but the tread width is designed for 17c rims. The tread is way too narrow for 21c rims. Pity as they are superb tyres.
Also, the best place I’ve seen for recommended pressures is the SRAM tyre pressure calculator. I always go off the WET settings and still -5 psi from that.
I think you covered everything I did in the video. Shake, discuss appropriate rim width, and go off the SRAM calc. Glad you agree. 👍
@@Mapdec I can’t stress how important shaking the wheel is. It’s the only way sealant will get to the bead.
IMO the Michelin are way behind in terms of the rim fitment and there are too many better tyres out there.
The new made in Italy Pirelli P Zero TLR are fantastic. One of the best out there for resiliency and speed. The S-works turbo 2bliss are good too.
@@atgnicyclist I’m glad you’re enjoying the channel.
When a seasoned mechanic can't figure out tubeless tire pressures and has to call the rep... is when I feel vindicated thinking tubeless is silly non-sense.