There's a moral here. If you're a fencing instructor - don't impale too many of your students, or your business may fail to thrive. Conversely, and for a similar reason - don't let any of your students impale you.
If there is a chance that you might impale your students, get them to pay in advance. Better yet, get a three year contract, that's valid even in the case of an accidental impalement.
You bring up branding which is very interesting. If I'm shopping for swords "blunt", "battle ready", and "not-sharp" are all used to describe swords differently depending on the seller. If I see a Feder, I know exactly what it's for. It may be a good or bad example of one, but I immediately know its purpose, and what it should be.
Yeah, ive thought about this too. The "spring" meaning is the most probable one i guess. Dont know if there is textual evidence for a clearer connection to either.
@@AGermanFencer I heard, it simply was a misnomer, since the Federfechter (the other big group besides the Marxbrüder) had a feather as symbol (the Marxbrüder use the lion of Saint Marcus), and from Federfechter the sword later got its name. There's no guarantee that I'm right, but it sounds reasonable.
Oh yes! This is a big point particularly now when the gym halls aren't open and I need to solo practice outside in public spots like parks. It always draws attention anyway but so far whenever someone talks me up about it, the response has always been positive. People are curious and properly interested. I'm almost certain that it would be perceived much differently without the schilt and a tapered blade, even if at closer inspection one would see that it's blunted.
I have always also seen the schilt as a reminiscence of what the width of the blade would be like at the base. Not just for hand protection, as is usually mentioned, but also for doing crossguard play, for example.
I think part of the appeal of feders is that nearly all of the feders on the market are appropriate for hema, but there are many MANY blunt swords being sold that are completely inappropriate for hitting against people or things. Most of the blunt swords sold are just unsharpened swords while all the feders sold are intended for fencing.
The main reason my club uses Feders over blunt longswords is that we want to discourage people bringing reenactment or bohurt swords to our Meyer classes.
@@Fabianwew Buhurt. Armored Combat Sports swords, which are just like real swords and are every bit as concussive as a sword you'd take to battle. As they're meant to be used in armor vs armor battles, there's a potential for injury of the unarmored.
@@olivenuttall5632 Not really. At least, not the ones from Albion for example. There's no distal taper on them, and you'd have to grind them for a while just to get a sharp edge.
I just like the weapon I spar with to mirror the actual sharp weapon I cut with as closely as possible. PoB, weight, length, handguard style. Feders kinda spoil me in those conditions. A feder is lighter, quicker, and has more reach than my sharp swords, so I'm more of a blunt hand-and-a-half guy.
Also, the feel in winden is way different with a blunt longsword than with feders. As you said, feders are normally lighter and for me, suited for competition, more for a "hack and slash" thing as we see in competition. But if you like to practice more winden I believe blunt longswords are better for it
I would agree with Orimus generally. Like in (hand-hand) MA, you often gain far more by slowing your actions and being more purposeful. I have never had/seen an issue with non-fedders, regardless. Back in the day, when still fencing with wasters (wood), after hours -- but still at fencing building -- after a couple of beers, _I_ was pocked in the eye. Reversed my good/bad eye ratings, sadly. It was covered for a few days, but really informed me, TO NOT MIX drinking and sword play. :D There is always a silver-lining.
My first longsword was a blunt with a rolled tip (Steel Techniques Feder). Getting a feder from Sigi Forge in the mail now. I think blunts work well for learning techniques but not as well for sparring (especially with mine because it's quite a bit shorter than the average feder).
I get you point but still disagree, the common form of training greatly lack aliveness and therefore become artificial. A Feder lets you train much faster so less artificial, for the same savety.
@@HankCarver Im saying "training technique" is often misunderstood in how its supposed to be done. With Feders technical partner drills can be done with a lot less compliance, resulting in better fencers. Training doesnt have to be slow.
As far as i know, typical cross section of the blade is different in feders and blunts. The edge in blunts is usually just... blunted, while in feders, it is also thickened, so that it beter takes the constant clashing of swords against one another. The shilt is there as a finger protection, because normal, sharp sword's blade would be wider near the hilt. Thus, it simulates the protection that a normal sword would give. Besides, feders can also look good - check Aureus.
A Feder can be dangerous and a fencing longsword can be safe but because of its design (next to a fencing longsword) a Feder can have a thicker and safer edge *while* still being around the same weight.
Very interesting video BUT, I think you missed a foundamental point: If two swords have the same mass but with a different shape, they will behave in a different way; a blunt longsword can breake a bone even if the target wears a gambeson, a feder could never do such a thing; moreover a feder is much faster and swingly than a blunt. This leads, willingly or not, to two totally different fighting styles even when the basics are the same: HEMA (despite the "H") is a lot faster and a lot more "score based" than reenacting fighting
Hi Matt, very interesting and teaching video! When you talked about Fiore's longsword training, i thought about his life and story that he partially wrote down in his book and i remember that Fiore tells us about his travels in Germany (he himself came from a culturally italian city which was under german speaking government) and his duels with german knights and his training under mamy german masters (which is the reason why some of his techniques are quite similar to the old german fencing tradition), so it's definetly possible that he met at least one feder at some point in his life. I don't know if i'm the first one who brought up this point, but it is just my opinion and sudden thought that i wanted to share. Also you talk about using shinais as longsword training tool and i happen to have one, along with some bokutos due to my kendo and iaido practice background, but i don't own any feder or fencing sword, so i'd like to ask you if in your opinion shinais are viable and realistic surrogates. Thank you for the content and keep it up, cheers from Italy!
I have one of the old Danelli Armouries ‘entry level’ sparring longswords, which doesn’t have a schilt. I’ve used it for a couple of years, mainly doing German longsword. I can only remember one instance where not having a schilt caused an issue, which meant I had to over compensate to spare my knuckles. I’ve just bought a Schiltless Feder from Regenyei. The blade is more of a ‘metal bar’ than the Danelli one, which is more refined, but on first impressions it feels similar. Just waiting for an opportunity to try it out. I’ll be perfectly honest, for me, it’s just a 'looks' preference. 😀
Feders are great and all, but when using them one needs to keep in mind how wide some originals were, how the mass is distributed differently(this goes for some blunts too) and how that changes technique. I've handled a black fencer steel generarion sword before, and the wide blade subtly changes handling and angles.
Id love to see some reviews from you of shilt-less sparring swords and blunts! Things like the other sigi models and the blackfencer blunts. very excited about a shilt-less Fiore feder!
Good info! This does settle some uncertainty I had, and makes me wonder about the handling of a feder if you chop the shilt off. It also suggests that if we wanted maximum historicity, we'd do meyer using blunted sharps which specifically have minimal flex and no additional mass at the tip, with thrusts forbidden XD
Question that is not about this video but should be of interest to your viewers: Who would have been likely to pick up the weapons and armor from the dead after a battle? Did the victor routinely do this, or was it more likely left to scavengers coming along later? And what would the extent of the scavenging be; would it include uniforms and everything else of value?
I used feder for HEMA sparrings and training with partner, blunt replicas for reenactment, training alone and bohurt (battle of nations style armoured) and I'm trying to save money(not easy task with toddler and building house) for nice accurate replica sharp for cutting and reenactment where I'd be just wearing it like photo ops and feasts.
The Shild on Feders is a bit like a second Finger Protection and like the blunt point a savety feature. What is your opinion on blunt swords or Feders to sharp swords especially in relation to binding? I heard that sharp Sword bind quite different that blunt ones and we are simulating with feders oder blunt swords a real fight.
I like Federschwerter - the Schild is a very ingenious way to reduce training accidents regarding hands. Whenever a blade starts sliding along another towards the hilt, the Schild will (most of the time) be blocking and/or diverting the blade a few cm before they hit an exposed knuckle or crush a finger wrapped over the guard. I do think that's also why most of them flare out from the hilt instead of being straight - to give a safe-ish place for a finger wrap.
It also reduces the chance of thumb injuries when doing thumb on flat of blade grip based cuts. I see it mostly as the thumb shield and this may explain why it occurs in the German texts and not others since that grip is a bit unique to the German texts.
Very informative video, thank you! Arms and Armor has a wonderful trainer specifically for Fiore studies, their Spada da Zogho--its a very good trainer on par with their Fechterspiel, though a wee bit stiffer.
Great comparison, however the few blunt longswords I have handled have been too heavy / unbalanced / stiff to spar and drill with safely so I recommend that people in our HEMA club only buy Feders (medium stiff Regenyei or SIGI). If a blunt performs the same as a Feder then of course it's fine - SIGI Schiltless Feder is the only one I know of and would currently recommend. The Fiore Feder sounds very exciting and I'm sure it will generate a lot of interest.
My Regenyei side sword is actually fairly stiff. I believe my former instructor had some input in their design based on his study of originals. Maybe I'll get back into it eventually, once in person training is possible again. Buying protective equipment to be able to spar is hard for me to do financially though.
I like this feder you know that it won’t do any damage to your opponent and he does show you the same sort of respect for you and your well being it would be really good fun and especially fun for someone young and I am old enough 54 years old and I would still like to learn these techniques and stuff it looks marvellous to me
As someone who found this video by looking up what the differences between blunt swords and Feders are, my main motivations were: Ambiguity of blunt swords - Many blunt swords are not suitable for sparring and it can be difficult to determine if the sword you're looking at is suitable for sparring. Cost - Feders can be nearly half the price of a blunt sword that is suitable for sparring and as someone else pointed out, much easier to explain if you are ever transporting it. I get the idea that they're ugly, have different blade profiles and so on but I don't really want to spend maybe twice as much on an already pretty expensive sword. Feders are cheaper for sure, but they're still not particularly cheap. Even a basic feder would be quite a heavy investment for me.
I'm looking forward to your Fiore Feder interpretation :) As for looking at the source material, it's just context. Fiore isn't going to show training swords because he is showing a live combat context. Meyer will because he has more of a sport context.
In knife fighting we try to have a blunt trainer exactly like the one we use for self defense i dont know if it translates to long sword i have no experience in long sword at all
The issue with some types of blunt longswords and some other longer blades is they are not safe for full contact sparring. I have a Type XIV arming sword blunt with rolled tip, but using it at full speed for sparring will hurt my partner because of the blade design and lack of flex. Same can happen with some types of longsword blunts.
@@bentrieschmann thank you for the reply and extra unformation am trying to learn more about europian swords and maybe when i move to canada am gonna start in hema training if i can find a school
I think feders do what they're supposed to do, they're a replacement for a sharp sword to enable safe sparing, practice etc. Every weapon based martial art needs safe trainers and that's what feders are. Use them or don't use them, as long as your training, having fun and ideally improving, who cares. I have sharp and blunt kama for example, their balance is different, their length is different, get good with one, your getting better with the other. As a person interested in weapons I think the ideal is to be able to compensate for weight and length so that one can pick up and use any variation within a specific weapon.
Our club got a smith to create Longswords which are normal swords in the strong and springs in the week part. They are save for 100% sparing and handle a lot more like swords then Springswords.
I think most people buy a Feder for sparring because you're on the "safeside" with these. Buying a blunt sword is a kind of gamble i think, could be too stiff or the tip is not safe ...
As someone who also does Fiore my issue has been that most feders are simply too long. I find the length changes how some of Fiore's actions work (particularly but not exclusively, sword in one hand). You can always get something custom made of course, but that can cost more/and or and impact availability. Things do seem to be getting better now in that regard - Regenyei has the Short Feder with a 90cm (35.4") blade, PH/VB has their Technical Feder which is a good length and even looks more "sword like" for people who care about that.
I get the comparison you are making, but I would really like a video about the difference in blunt/practice longswords and featherswords. For example the albion liechtenauer is in my opinion very different to a feathersword, eventhough both are practice longswords. No hate, just pointing it out. BTW: I like both types.
Later today there will be a video of this nature on our channel. In response to this video by Matt and following Part 1 - which is what caused this most recent discussion of the topic..
You know I actually quite like the look of them; it's different, iconic you could say, and what with the schilt and all you know what a feder is when you see one. I have one that I consider very nice. But I can understand why someone might consider it ugly; they do stand out as different, and whether that's good or bad is really a matter of perspective. I doubt they could be easily mistaken for a battle sword, which does have its plusses and minuses. But as for your question at the end regarding whether or not they could be used for HEMA branding: absolutely. No one else that I can think of would use or care about such a thing, and I certainly never heard of one until I got into HEMA. Plus it has the benefit and prestige of history behind it. At minimum, I'd think any school teaching German longsword would do well to use them, given it is historically accurate to what is in the treatises; schools that teach other national styles might do well to use trainers closer in appearance to whatever the Italians or such were using. But there is the matter of availability and convenience of course, so I wouldn't fault anyone for bringing a feder to a Fiore fight.
I'm very curious as to your opinion on the SIGI King and swords like it, like the Blackfencer steel generation, swords which have federlike flex, and certainly are more flexible than some feders on the market, that are shaped like blunts but not, y'know, actually blunts. Edit: in Italy iron masks were sometimes worn over the face, see Marc Antonio Pagano's treatise from 1553.
Where to base line safety standards come from in HEMA? Were they borrowed from else where? Were they created through experimentation? Or though experience from tournaments? Why do we have these specific expectations regarding tip structure, blade flex, and overall inertia?
As a maker thinking of what may be wanted in a competition sparring blade, something that dynamically feels like your cutting sword (or historical sword), but hits lighter in use. I don't think I've held any feders that dynamically feel like historical longswords that they're trying emulate. Nodes are usually in the wrong places, especially the hilt node. And they're usually much longer than historical longsword counterparts. So nothing wrong with feders at all, but definitely keep an eye on how close they are to the weapon they are trying to emulate. I personally prefer blunt swords to feders, but I also make my blunt sword with those characteristics in mind. Many blunt swords are too stiff and may not be purpose built for sparring.
I am blunt team. Mostly because watching tournaments with feders give me flashbacks to olympic fencing. Appearances are important to "sell" a sport, and watching people fighting with weird looking practice weapons instead of blunt weapons give a different message to the "uneducated" eyes (the people you are trying to sell hema). Also, isnt a little dyshonest to say "there is no difference" when pointing out the blades are more flexible and narrow? If those aren't real differences then should we shut up any discussion about the material properties of swords and the correlation with their use?
YMMV, but I've been using both feders and blunts for many years, (Ensifer, Poker Armoury, Aureus, Blackfencer, Regenyei, Binns, Albion and some others) and I definitely prefer blunt longswords and arming swords to their feder counterparts for two reasons that Matt does not seem to mention at all: 1) Most feders tend to be well suited for hews, but ill suited for binds due to their PoB, edge thickness, blade shape and mass distribution. 2) In my experience even though the feder's schilt is probably there to cover the hands, it offers far less protection than the properly-sword-shaped blade.
Well, I don't think the feder is ugly, they're kind of cool for me (but I prefer normal longswords) and like you've said, they're basicly the same, so between those (blunt sword and feder) I don't have a preference really. Nice discussion.
The shilt is just for protecting your thumb from those inevitable accidental thumb strikes. It allows students to avoid thumb injuries and not being able to participate and pay 💰 for all the classes. It’s an instructors idea to keep the classes full, and it works .
Depends what you are training for. The sword you use in training should faithfully mimic the characteristics of the sword you are training to use, while minimizing risk of injury to yourself and your training partners.
if you look for a blunt longsword you will mostly find reenactment swords without the flexibility and safe tip. if you look for feders most will be safe for sparring.
On topic: It is not too long ago, that Academy of Historical Fencing posted a video-review of the Blackfencer steel-generation long-sword: They said that this particular blunt behaved enough like a feather to be safe, but 'felt' enough like a real longsword to rekindle some lost love towards that art (that had been lost, because of feders). I can totally see how statements about that particular, lovely, blunt sword could be misconstrued to mean 'all blunts are better than feders,' in the dank recesses of the tribal-internet :)
I normally hold back but I'd like to give my input on this one. Of course I am biased. but so- I have learned a little bit from a tradition that uses these tools. Let me explain briefly the insight I have gained. A sharp sword is the best all around, none of us would >:[ practice much otherwise Blunt longswords are good in controlled techniques or limited engagements -- again yes they are better all around. no doubt. Feders (specifically with a shilt) in longsword will keep your students coming back because their fingers will be intact so the benefit is ..that the students still can work at the saw mill - regardless, simply because the shilt protects fingers from accidents- and they are therefore, more likely to attend class next week. because they can pay. It's utility lays primarily in instruction. of course the downside is that actions against the cross are "limited". therefore go to choice B (blunts). & if there is still any disagreement to what "legitimate practice" is, revert to A and pray your point is made. cheers. blade flex, balance (also, edge and tip): this is another topic entirely that goes into metallurgy flex vs. brittleness, chemical shearing, and binding--- more than I am comfortable with. Although, these are valid arguments worth discussing & would equally inform makers as well as viewers. I only focused on the shilt because it appears (at least to me), to be the attribute which defines a feder as a feder.
Literally looking at Albion's Lichtenauer and Meyer trainers today. The former, a blunt, is desirable to me because it's mass distribution is closer to a "real sword" and from a historical point of view this is what you need in order to truly contextualize the martial art. However this same reason has people shy away because apparently it hits like a truck. The Lichtenauer is banned from some tournaments while the Meyer (feder) is not. The feder, and feders in general, distribute force in a way more friendly for competition from the stuff that I've read and personal experience. In a perfect world, anyone who practices HEMA has both, a historical replica to understand and contextualize your actions in combat, and a feder for competition. Not everyone has that kind of cash though, so priority is given to what is more important to the individual
What do you think about grip length? feders seem to have longer grips in comparison to something like albions next gen longswords making certain longsword techniques easier IMO, some moves are difficult with your hands are touching on the grip because its short.
my problem with feders is if you catch a blade on the shilt you have a bound blade further up than on a real sword, therefore you can perform a thwarting movement and displace your opponent's blade much further and more easily, then thwart in the other direction to cut to the head or something. a technique not so easily available on real swords
In my experience, most people who are arguing for the use of blunts, are specifically arguing for the use of dull historical replicas of longswords, not any flex or any tip protection, just a dull historical replica.
Curieus what would you think of air practice of techniek with heavyer versions of blunt swords, like purposefully using wallhangers to practice techniek? I own a 1,5 kilo basterdt sword it's a wallhanger but I often use it to train just the technieks to strenghten my musicles strenght and musicle memorie would you advice against or for this type of training?
The bigger question is, why we don't use rubberinlays in these trainers to imitate the bind we would get with sharp blades? The point with feders is, that it is not fun to train with federusers because they aren't so aware of handinjuries.
Is my ynderstanding correct? Traditionally feders are supposed to have schildts before the cross guard. Fast forward to current time, the current swordmasters added a coiled tip. Though at the end of your video, inunderstood that a feder doesnt have to have a schildt, but that it has a lesser mass around or near the tip to make the impact less powerful as well a more flexible and wider coiled tip for safer thrusts. What metal is used for the more flexible feders? I was planning to purchase a blunt leafspring sword with a coiled tip for practice. That way i might ask the swordsmith to use a different metal to make a more flexible blade as "feders". Thanks I am actually practicing single sword ; and sword & dagger from Eskrima/Kali. i was looking for a way to enter the HEMA circles to improve and test my skills that's why i was thinking of ordering blunt edged leafspring swords from the local smiths.
Hello Matt, just some quick questions. How about the width of blade? Does it not affect the binding? And is there any difference in the way of utilizing crossguard, when a training sword is with a 'shield' and without a 'shield'?
so wouldnt something like the flexible Sigi King shorty work well enough for Fiore without the schilt? Really curious to see what youre working on thats unique and novel!!
I train with a Fabri-Amorum HEMA longsword and my blackfencer steel generation line longsword. The biggest difference for me when comparing those two to the feders most people in my club use is the blade width. And I have to say that I kind of feel that difference a lot... When I use half sword techniques, when I work with the flat, when I roll my sword up to wind against my opponents blade, when displacing a thrust since it changes the angle at which the blade is displaced or also during absetzen. The difference is natural since allmost all longswords have wider blades than feders. Is it better or worse? That depends on the personal preference. But there is a difference. I mean, "normal" longswords feel different from eachother aswell. I never grew to like feders to be honest. I'll probably stay with "HEMA swords"... But I see why people might prefer the one or the other.
There are some blunt blades that use an exaggerated fuller to take mass out of the middle to compensate for the additional mass at the edge. You'll see this referred to as a "barbell" cross section.
I honestly never understood what's so great with buying steel blades for learning. They are more expensive than synthetics, do pose potentially greater threat (You'd want more protection), and the only benefits I can think of is that they look nicer (debatable ofc), and sound more authentic in sparring.
For safety purposes I think Feders are a better option. If you really need to practice techniqes of cutting and thrusting with a blunted sword just to get a better idea of how to use a sharp one then you can always practice on inanimate objects.
I think that if you would want to engineer a safe practice sword while maintaining the balance and feel of a real one, you sort of arrive at the feder anyway. For a practice weapon you want it to be thick(er) to be safe. If you maintain a sword-like shape but increasing the thickness you get a heavy sword, sou you decrease the width. You can get a proper weight distribution without a schilt, but you pretty much always end up with a less wide thick blade. The blunt swords on the market over here go the heavy way, so they keep the shape but add on thickness to make it blunt enough and you get unwieldy clubs pretty much
On the US East coast, it comes down to the range and variety of feder makers being more understood and trusted than blunt sword makers. Feders are mostly designed for one purpose: training or competing in historic longsword arts. However, there are so many more variables for how and where a blunt sword is used. Is it a cheap wall hanger? Is it a chunky theatrical sword designed to withstand years of abuse against the edge? Is it a reenactor's sword with a thin edge profile (not safe for sparring)? Is the metal tempered to withstand shattering when bent? Will it bend? Is the point safe to thrust? There are safe blunt sword for our purposes. But they're also drowning in a sea of unsuitable look alikes. A tournament safety marshall can quickly inspect a feder from a reputable manufacturer and know it's likely safe. Far more difficult to do with the range of possibilities in a blunt sword; not impossible, just difficult for amateur volunteers in the chaos of a tournament.
I don't have your experience but my instinct for why the design differences exist is that the feder is trying to make up the weight while keeping it safe and the blunt wants a more correct weight balance to a real sword. You didn't seem to address this in the video so I wonder if in your experience the weight distribution is the same and the feeling in the hand is also the same between the 2 types and you didn't feel the need to address it? Tbf you did say they could be the same but you didn't speak to how often that is the case. Cheers.
3:26 - I have feder at home, and it have flat rounded point, all my friends have flat rounded point and all people from Poland I know, have it same. I would say its Westerner thing, to make it "safer". And I have to say, that your feder look really different from mine.
I´am actualy see the feder as potentualy more dangurous than the blunt, the blunts have more power in their strikes and thrusts so you get more brushes but i have over my 11 years in HEMA only seen 2 blunts break in trainings and tournaments and almost one feeder breakes at every tournament i have been to and have my self broken 4, and i will always say that a unnoticed broken sword is more dangurous than a powerfull blunt one. (sorry for bad English)
Get a brain, the blunt will puncture or not puncture and break ribs. Feders flex, only if too often and too much they will beak. Theres a reason why they used Feders hundrets of years ago, for almost the same purpose as us. They did not used blunts in Fechtschule.
A basic truth is that you fight the way you train. If you're training for longsword, train with a longsword! You may certainly blunt the longsword so that you'll still be able to fight with a sharp one when the time comes. In particular, if you train with a sword that has a blade-stopping extra feature ahead of the hilt, you will learn habits that you will have to unlearn when handling a real longsword which doesn't. Of course the argument is a bit academic because Fiore et al. were training people to kill, and we don't do that. Instead we train people to compete. If you will be competing with a feder, then of course you should train with a feder.
At the end of the day as a training tool it's going to get scuffed up and tarnished. The grip will probably be held together with tape. So looking pretty is a bit of a non-issue.
As much as you mention inertia and mass and velocity, I will have my 7th grade students watch this video and write a report on the affects of mass and inertia on fencing.
Feder v Blunt, really does come down to the added hand protection provided by the shilt. I prefer Control and Technique protecting me from injury, instead of equipment. Besides, in almost all modern contexts, we have great hand protective equipment and don't need the shilt that the shirt sleeve, bare knuckle fighters in those treatises to keep our hands safe.
the thing is that our gloves add a lot of bulk, so it's easier to hit the hands. Sometimes you get hits on the hand that just wouldn't have happened without the gloves and a Shilt negates that.
@@nicopetri3533that is true, I just have a preference to avoiding hits via technique vs concessions. From my point of view, if i can prevent strikes to the glove it keeps the blade that much further from my hand. Matter of preference. If i were to go fight in a tournament, shilt all the way as it's an advantage. But i neither drill, not spar with one.
The art we see in Classical Texts are not about sport but, rather training for the next Civil or Religious and such Wars. Tesshu and others even in the 19th century promoted giving and taking pain to/from your opponent as a learning experience. Also, most of the philosophy has not been passed down except in bits of Romance.
Honestly I always though feders were used for german traditions like Meyer, I know a lot of Fiore traditions dislike how long feders tend to be on average. I think it just depends entirely on what you study. I started in Fiore, ended up preferring Lichtenauer.
There's a moral here. If you're a fencing instructor - don't impale too many of your students, or your business may fail to thrive. Conversely, and for a similar reason - don't let any of your students impale you.
If there is a chance that you might impale your students, get them to pay in advance. Better yet, get a three year contract, that's valid even in the case of an accidental impalement.
You bring up branding which is very interesting. If I'm shopping for swords "blunt", "battle ready", and "not-sharp" are all used to describe swords differently depending on the seller. If I see a Feder, I know exactly what it's for.
It may be a good or bad example of one, but I immediately know its purpose, and what it should be.
'Feder' has a double meaning in German. It can mean feather and also spring both meanings kinda make sense in this context.
More then a double meaning - Die Feder ist mächtiger als das Schwert.
So we have the feather, quill, spring, and also a wooden connection called Feder 😉
Yeah, ive thought about this too. The "spring" meaning is the most probable one i guess. Dont know if there is textual evidence for a clearer connection to either.
What is heavier tho, one killegramme o Sword or one killegramme o Feders?
@@AGermanFencer I heard, it simply was a misnomer, since the Federfechter (the other big group besides the Marxbrüder) had a feather as symbol (the Marxbrüder use the lion of Saint Marcus), and from Federfechter the sword later got its name.
There's no guarantee that I'm right, but it sounds reasonable.
I like feders because they're easier to explain to campus security at my uni than a blunt sword would have been :)
Oh yes! This is a big point particularly now when the gym halls aren't open and I need to solo practice outside in public spots like parks.
It always draws attention anyway but so far whenever someone talks me up about it, the response has always been positive. People are curious and properly interested. I'm almost certain that it would be perceived much differently without the schilt and a tapered blade, even if at closer inspection one would see that it's blunted.
pro trick: watch series on Flixzone. Been using them for watching loads of movies these days.
@Santana Mohammed Yup, I have been watching on flixzone} for months myself :)
@Santana Mohammed definitely, have been watching on Flixzone} for since december myself =)
@Santana Mohammed yea, been using Flixzone} for since december myself :)
I have always also seen the schilt as a reminiscence of what the width of the blade would be like at the base. Not just for hand protection, as is usually mentioned, but also for doing crossguard play, for example.
I think part of the appeal of feders is that nearly all of the feders on the market are appropriate for hema, but there are many MANY blunt swords being sold that are completely inappropriate for hitting against people or things. Most of the blunt swords sold are just unsharpened swords while all the feders sold are intended for fencing.
This I think is one of the core issues for this whole debate.
Agreed
The main reason my club uses Feders over blunt longswords is that we want to discourage people bringing reenactment or bohurt swords to our Meyer classes.
Bohurt sword?
@@Fabianwew Buhurt. Armored Combat Sports swords, which are just like real swords and are every bit as concussive as a sword you'd take to battle. As they're meant to be used in armor vs armor battles, there's a potential for injury of the unarmored.
I like blunt trainers because they look like "real" swords and I'm vain like that
Absolutely same lollll
Me too. But Feders are easier to explain away as similar to fencing items if “someone” stops you on your bike ride to practice.
Also, can be sharpened in event of Zombie apocalypse
@@olivenuttall5632 Not really. At least, not the ones from Albion for example. There's no distal taper on them, and you'd have to grind them for a while just to get a sharp edge.
I just like the weapon I spar with to mirror the actual sharp weapon I cut with as closely as possible. PoB, weight, length, handguard style. Feders kinda spoil me in those conditions. A feder is lighter, quicker, and has more reach than my sharp swords, so I'm more of a blunt hand-and-a-half guy.
Also, the feel in winden is way different with a blunt longsword than with feders. As you said, feders are normally lighter and for me, suited for competition, more for a "hack and slash" thing as we see in competition. But if you like to practice more winden I believe blunt longswords are better for it
I would agree with Orimus generally. Like in (hand-hand) MA, you often gain far more by slowing your actions and being more purposeful. I have never had/seen an issue with non-fedders, regardless. Back in the day, when still fencing with wasters (wood), after hours -- but still at fencing building -- after a couple of beers, _I_ was pocked in the eye. Reversed my good/bad eye ratings, sadly. It was covered for a few days, but really informed me, TO NOT MIX drinking and sword play. :D There is always a silver-lining.
My first longsword was a blunt with a rolled tip (Steel Techniques Feder). Getting a feder from Sigi Forge in the mail now.
I think blunts work well for learning techniques but not as well for sparring (especially with mine because it's quite a bit shorter than the average feder).
I get you point but still disagree, the common form of training greatly lack aliveness and therefore become artificial.
A Feder lets you train much faster so less artificial, for the same savety.
@@sabelfechter7136 Huh?
@@HankCarver Im saying "training technique" is often misunderstood in how its supposed to be done. With Feders technical partner drills can be done with a lot less compliance, resulting in better fencers. Training doesnt have to be slow.
@@sabelfechter7136 ok.
As far as i know, typical cross section of the blade is different in feders and blunts. The edge in blunts is usually just... blunted, while in feders, it is also thickened, so that it beter takes the constant clashing of swords against one another.
The shilt is there as a finger protection, because normal, sharp sword's blade would be wider near the hilt. Thus, it simulates the protection that a normal sword would give.
Besides, feders can also look good - check Aureus.
Ah! I'll save this video in the favorites to better answer to some people when it is needed XD
I found it very explanatory too!
Love these types of videos. Until today I never knew Feder existed.
And apparently you never new about the word knew also.
A Feder can be dangerous and a fencing longsword can be safe but because of its design (next to a fencing longsword) a Feder can have a thicker and safer edge *while* still being around the same weight.
You read my mind. As a less experienced practitioner, I was wondering about the difference. Thank you
Very interesting video BUT, I think you missed a foundamental point:
If two swords have the same mass but with a different shape, they will behave in a different way; a blunt longsword can breake a bone even if the target wears a gambeson, a feder could never do such a thing; moreover a feder is much faster and swingly than a blunt.
This leads, willingly or not, to two totally different fighting styles even when the basics are the same: HEMA (despite the "H") is a lot faster and a lot more "score based" than reenacting fighting
Hi Matt, very interesting and teaching video! When you talked about Fiore's longsword training, i thought about his life and story that he partially wrote down in his book and i remember that Fiore tells us about his travels in Germany (he himself came from a culturally italian city which was under german speaking government) and his duels with german knights and his training under mamy german masters (which is the reason why some of his techniques are quite similar to the old german fencing tradition), so it's definetly possible that he met at least one feder at some point in his life. I don't know if i'm the first one who brought up this point, but it is just my opinion and sudden thought that i wanted to share. Also you talk about using shinais as longsword training tool and i happen to have one, along with some bokutos due to my kendo and iaido practice background, but i don't own any feder or fencing sword, so i'd like to ask you if in your opinion shinais are viable and realistic surrogates. Thank you for the content and keep it up, cheers from Italy!
I have one of the old Danelli Armouries ‘entry level’ sparring longswords, which doesn’t have a schilt. I’ve used it for a couple of years, mainly doing German longsword. I can only remember one instance where not having a schilt caused an issue, which meant I had to over compensate to spare my knuckles.
I’ve just bought a Schiltless Feder from Regenyei. The blade is more of a ‘metal bar’ than the Danelli one, which is more refined, but on first impressions it feels similar. Just waiting for an opportunity to try it out.
I’ll be perfectly honest, for me, it’s just a 'looks' preference. 😀
Feders are great and all, but when using them one needs to keep in mind how wide some originals were, how the mass is distributed differently(this goes for some blunts too) and how that changes technique. I've handled a black fencer steel generarion sword before, and the wide blade subtly changes handling and angles.
Hey Matt could you please make a video about poisoned weapons throughout history, how often they were used or if they were used.
Id love to see some reviews from you of shilt-less sparring swords and blunts! Things like the other sigi models and the blackfencer blunts. very excited about a shilt-less Fiore feder!
Good info! This does settle some uncertainty I had, and makes me wonder about the handling of a feder if you chop the shilt off.
It also suggests that if we wanted maximum historicity, we'd do meyer using blunted sharps which specifically have minimal flex and no additional mass at the tip, with thrusts forbidden XD
We need to get Matt to say "Joachim" more often, it's brilliant.
“Shoakiemaya” 😊
Wah keem
Question that is not about this video but should be of interest to your viewers:
Who would have been likely to pick up the weapons and armor from the dead after a battle? Did the victor routinely do this, or was it more likely left to scavengers coming along later? And what would the extent of the scavenging be; would it include uniforms and everything else of value?
I used feder for HEMA sparrings and training with partner, blunt replicas for reenactment, training alone and bohurt (battle of nations style armoured) and I'm trying to save money(not easy task with toddler and building house) for nice accurate replica sharp for cutting and reenactment where I'd be just wearing it like photo ops and feasts.
The Shild on Feders is a bit like a second Finger Protection and like the blunt point a savety feature.
What is your opinion on blunt swords or Feders to sharp swords especially in relation to binding? I heard that sharp Sword bind quite different that blunt ones and we are simulating with feders oder blunt swords a real fight.
I like Federschwerter - the Schild is a very ingenious way to reduce training accidents regarding hands. Whenever a blade starts sliding along another towards the hilt, the Schild will (most of the time) be blocking and/or diverting the blade a few cm before they hit an exposed knuckle or crush a finger wrapped over the guard. I do think that's also why most of them flare out from the hilt instead of being straight - to give a safe-ish place for a finger wrap.
It also reduces the chance of thumb injuries when doing thumb on flat of blade grip based cuts. I see it mostly as the thumb shield and this may explain why it occurs in the German texts and not others since that grip is a bit unique to the German texts.
Very informative video, thank you!
Arms and Armor has a wonderful trainer specifically for Fiore studies, their Spada da Zogho--its a very good trainer on par with their Fechterspiel, though a wee bit stiffer.
I love Arms and Armor feders but I am also very biased since I’ve met them personally and they work closely with my club :p
Great comparison, however the few blunt longswords I have handled have been too heavy / unbalanced / stiff to spar and drill with safely so I recommend that people in our HEMA club only buy Feders (medium stiff Regenyei or SIGI). If a blunt performs the same as a Feder then of course it's fine - SIGI Schiltless Feder is the only one I know of and would currently recommend.
The Fiore Feder sounds very exciting and I'm sure it will generate a lot of interest.
My Regenyei side sword is actually fairly stiff. I believe my former instructor had some input in their design based on his study of originals. Maybe I'll get back into it eventually, once in person training is possible again. Buying protective equipment to be able to spar is hard for me to do financially though.
TBH that’s just Regenyei
I like this feder you know that it won’t do any damage to your opponent and he does show you the same sort of respect for you and your well being it would be really good fun and especially fun for someone young and I am old enough 54 years old and I would still like to learn these techniques and stuff it looks marvellous to me
As someone who found this video by looking up what the differences between blunt swords and Feders are, my main motivations were:
Ambiguity of blunt swords - Many blunt swords are not suitable for sparring and it can be difficult to determine if the sword you're looking at is suitable for sparring.
Cost - Feders can be nearly half the price of a blunt sword that is suitable for sparring
and as someone else pointed out, much easier to explain if you are ever transporting it.
I get the idea that they're ugly, have different blade profiles and so on but I don't really want to spend maybe twice as much on an already pretty expensive sword. Feders are cheaper for sure, but they're still not particularly cheap. Even a basic feder would be quite a heavy investment for me.
I kinda like how they look like small greatswords
I'm looking forward to your Fiore Feder interpretation :)
As for looking at the source material, it's just context. Fiore isn't going to show training swords because he is showing a live combat context. Meyer will because he has more of a sport context.
I agree on your point about blade but, how about grips ? Feders tend to have much longer handle than those showed in Fiore's treates.
In knife fighting we try to have a blunt trainer exactly like the one we use for self defense i dont know if it translates to long sword i have no experience in long sword at all
The issue with some types of blunt longswords and some other longer blades is they are not safe for full contact sparring. I have a Type XIV arming sword blunt with rolled tip, but using it at full speed for sparring will hurt my partner because of the blade design and lack of flex. Same can happen with some types of longsword blunts.
@@bentrieschmann thank you for the reply and extra unformation am trying to learn more about europian swords and maybe when i move to canada am gonna start in hema training if i can find a school
I think feders do what they're supposed to do, they're a replacement for a sharp sword to enable safe sparing, practice etc. Every weapon based martial art needs safe trainers and that's what feders are. Use them or don't use them, as long as your training, having fun and ideally improving, who cares. I have sharp and blunt kama for example, their balance is different, their length is different, get good with one, your getting better with the other. As a person interested in weapons I think the ideal is to be able to compensate for weight and length so that one can pick up and use any variation within a specific weapon.
One advatage of schilt is it brings point o balance closer to hilt.
Is it enough difference to make a difference? You be the judge.
What is heavier tho one killegramme o Sword or one killegramme o Feders?
Our club got a smith to create Longswords which are normal swords in the strong and springs in the week part. They are save for 100% sparing and handle a lot more like swords then Springswords.
I think most people buy a Feder for sparring because you're on the "safeside" with these. Buying a blunt sword is a kind of gamble i think, could be too stiff or the tip is not safe ...
I'm looking forward to seeing what you do to create a Fiore feder. Will we see that anytime this year?
As someone who also does Fiore my issue has been that most feders are simply too long. I find the length changes how some of Fiore's actions work (particularly but not exclusively, sword in one hand). You can always get something custom made of course, but that can cost more/and or and impact availability. Things do seem to be getting better now in that regard - Regenyei has the Short Feder with a 90cm (35.4") blade, PH/VB has their Technical Feder which is a good length and even looks more "sword like" for people who care about that.
I get the comparison you are making, but I would really like a video about the difference in blunt/practice longswords and featherswords. For example the albion liechtenauer is in my opinion very different to a feathersword, eventhough both are practice longswords.
No hate, just pointing it out.
BTW: I like both types.
This was closer to what I was thinking of as well for this video.
Later today there will be a video of this nature on our channel. In response to this video by Matt and following Part 1 - which is what caused this most recent discussion of the topic..
You know I actually quite like the look of them; it's different, iconic you could say, and what with the schilt and all you know what a feder is when you see one. I have one that I consider very nice. But I can understand why someone might consider it ugly; they do stand out as different, and whether that's good or bad is really a matter of perspective. I doubt they could be easily mistaken for a battle sword, which does have its plusses and minuses. But as for your question at the end regarding whether or not they could be used for HEMA branding: absolutely. No one else that I can think of would use or care about such a thing, and I certainly never heard of one until I got into HEMA. Plus it has the benefit and prestige of history behind it. At minimum, I'd think any school teaching German longsword would do well to use them, given it is historically accurate to what is in the treatises; schools that teach other national styles might do well to use trainers closer in appearance to whatever the Italians or such were using. But there is the matter of availability and convenience of course, so I wouldn't fault anyone for bringing a feder to a Fiore fight.
I'm very curious as to your opinion on the SIGI King and swords like it, like the Blackfencer steel generation, swords which have federlike flex, and certainly are more flexible than some feders on the market, that are shaped like blunts but not, y'know, actually blunts.
Edit: in Italy iron masks were sometimes worn over the face, see Marc Antonio Pagano's treatise from 1553.
Where to base line safety standards come from in HEMA? Were they borrowed from else where? Were they created through experimentation? Or though experience from tournaments? Why do we have these specific expectations regarding tip structure, blade flex, and overall inertia?
As a maker thinking of what may be wanted in a competition sparring blade, something that dynamically feels like your cutting sword (or historical sword), but hits lighter in use. I don't think I've held any feders that dynamically feel like historical longswords that they're trying emulate. Nodes are usually in the wrong places, especially the hilt node. And they're usually much longer than historical longsword counterparts. So nothing wrong with feders at all, but definitely keep an eye on how close they are to the weapon they are trying to emulate. I personally prefer blunt swords to feders, but I also make my blunt sword with those characteristics in mind. Many blunt swords are too stiff and may not be purpose built for sparring.
I am blunt team. Mostly because watching tournaments with feders give me flashbacks to olympic fencing. Appearances are important to "sell" a sport, and watching people fighting with weird looking practice weapons instead of blunt weapons give a different message to the "uneducated" eyes (the people you are trying to sell hema).
Also, isnt a little dyshonest to say "there is no difference" when pointing out the blades are more flexible and narrow? If those aren't real differences then should we shut up any discussion about the material properties of swords and the correlation with their use?
YMMV, but I've been using both feders and blunts for many years, (Ensifer, Poker Armoury, Aureus, Blackfencer, Regenyei, Binns, Albion and some others) and I definitely prefer blunt longswords and arming swords to their feder counterparts for two reasons that Matt does not seem to mention at all:
1) Most feders tend to be well suited for hews, but ill suited for binds due to their PoB, edge thickness, blade shape and mass distribution.
2) In my experience even though the feder's schilt is probably there to cover the hands, it offers far less protection than the properly-sword-shaped blade.
Well, I don't think the feder is ugly, they're kind of cool for me (but I prefer normal longswords) and like you've said, they're basicly the same, so between those (blunt sword and feder) I don't have a preference really. Nice discussion.
The shilt is just for protecting your thumb from those inevitable accidental thumb strikes. It allows students to avoid thumb injuries and not being able to participate and pay 💰 for all the classes. It’s an instructors idea to keep the classes full, and it works .
So what's the deal with the schilts??
One problem with copying sharps and making them blunt is that it adds a lot of weight to the blade and can make them unsafe and not feel right
Depends what you are training for.
The sword you use in training should faithfully mimic the characteristics of the sword you are training to use, while minimizing risk of injury to yourself and your training partners.
Do they make a blunt Katzbalger or a "Katzfeder"?
if you look for a blunt longsword you will mostly find reenactment swords without the flexibility and safe tip. if you look for feders most will be safe for sparring.
I’m very inexperienced, does the added guard on a feder give an unrealistic/unfair extra degree of protection? Even if very minor?
On topic: It is not too long ago, that Academy of Historical Fencing posted a video-review of the Blackfencer steel-generation long-sword: They said that this particular blunt behaved enough like a feather to be safe, but 'felt' enough like a real longsword to rekindle some lost love towards that art (that had been lost, because of feders). I can totally see how statements about that particular, lovely, blunt sword could be misconstrued to mean 'all blunts are better than feders,' in the dank recesses of the tribal-internet :)
what is the least popular weapon in Hema so far?
Spear
and pommel, of course, because it is banned by Geneva conventions
I like the look of feders, and if I wanted to make my own longsword, I would somehow find a way to put a schilt on it
I normally hold back but I'd like to give my input on this one.
Of course I am biased. but so- I have learned a little bit from a tradition that uses these tools. Let me explain briefly the insight I have gained.
A sharp sword is the best all around, none of us would >:[ practice much otherwise
Blunt longswords are good in controlled techniques or limited engagements -- again yes they are better all around. no doubt.
Feders (specifically with a shilt) in longsword will keep your students coming back because their fingers will be intact so the benefit is
..that the students still can work at the saw mill - regardless, simply because the shilt protects fingers from accidents- and they are therefore, more likely to attend class next week. because they can pay. It's utility lays primarily in instruction.
of course the downside is that actions against the cross are "limited". therefore go to choice B (blunts). & if there is still any disagreement to what "legitimate practice" is, revert to A and pray your point is made.
cheers.
blade flex, balance (also, edge and tip): this is another topic entirely that goes into metallurgy flex vs. brittleness, chemical shearing, and binding--- more than I am comfortable with. Although, these are valid arguments worth discussing & would equally inform makers as well as viewers. I only focused on the shilt because it appears (at least to me), to be the attribute which defines a feder as a feder.
Literally looking at Albion's Lichtenauer and Meyer trainers today. The former, a blunt, is desirable to me because it's mass distribution is closer to a "real sword" and from a historical point of view this is what you need in order to truly contextualize the martial art. However this same reason has people shy away because apparently it hits like a truck. The Lichtenauer is banned from some tournaments while the Meyer (feder) is not. The feder, and feders in general, distribute force in a way more friendly for competition from the stuff that I've read and personal experience.
In a perfect world, anyone who practices HEMA has both, a historical replica to understand and contextualize your actions in combat, and a feder for competition. Not everyone has that kind of cash though, so priority is given to what is more important to the individual
What do you think about grip length? feders seem to have longer grips in comparison to something like albions next gen longswords making certain longsword techniques easier IMO, some moves are difficult with your hands are touching on the grip because its short.
my problem with feders is if you catch a blade on the shilt you have a bound blade further up than on a real sword, therefore you can perform a thwarting movement and displace your opponent's blade much further and more easily, then thwart in the other direction to cut to the head or something. a technique not so easily available on real swords
One of my, points pretty, much in a Part 2 video, due later today. Part one caused this most recent debacle...
You should check out the technique feder from Purpleheart armory.
In my experience, most people who are arguing for the use of blunts, are specifically arguing for the use of dull historical replicas of longswords, not any flex or any tip protection, just a dull historical replica.
Curieus what would you think of air practice of techniek with heavyer versions of blunt swords, like purposefully using wallhangers to practice techniek? I own a 1,5 kilo basterdt sword it's a wallhanger but I often use it to train just the technieks to strenghten my musicles strenght and musicle memorie would you advice against or for this type of training?
The bigger question is, why we don't use rubberinlays in these trainers to imitate the bind we would get with sharp blades?
The point with feders is, that it is not fun to train with federusers because they aren't so aware of handinjuries.
Is my ynderstanding correct? Traditionally feders are supposed to have schildts before the cross guard. Fast forward to current time, the current swordmasters added a coiled tip.
Though at the end of your video, inunderstood that a feder doesnt have to have a schildt, but that it has a lesser mass around or near the tip to make the impact less powerful as well a more flexible and wider coiled tip for safer thrusts.
What metal is used for the more flexible feders? I was planning to purchase a blunt leafspring sword with a coiled tip for practice. That way i might ask the swordsmith to use a different metal to make a more flexible blade as "feders". Thanks
I am actually practicing single sword ; and sword & dagger from Eskrima/Kali. i was looking for a way to enter the HEMA circles to improve and test my skills that's why i was thinking of ordering blunt edged leafspring swords from the local smiths.
Why did actual longswords not have schilts, if schilts improved the safety of the user?
did feders ever had fullers?
Even if its made for just one specific use, there's nothing wrong with using it as an alternative to functionaly equal choices
I think the point is that in general terms, **some** people feel they're not functionally equal choices...
Hello Matt, just some quick questions. How about the width of blade? Does it not affect the binding? And is there any difference in the way of utilizing crossguard, when a training sword is with a 'shield' and without a 'shield'?
so wouldnt something like the flexible Sigi King shorty work well enough for Fiore without the schilt? Really curious to see what youre working on thats unique and novel!!
I train with a Fabri-Amorum HEMA longsword and my blackfencer steel generation line longsword.
The biggest difference for me when comparing those two to the feders most people in my club use is the blade width. And I have to say that I kind of feel that difference a lot... When I use half sword techniques, when I work with the flat, when I roll my sword up to wind against my opponents blade, when displacing a thrust since it changes the angle at which the blade is displaced or also during absetzen. The difference is natural since allmost all longswords have wider blades than feders.
Is it better or worse? That depends on the personal preference. But there is a difference. I mean, "normal" longswords feel different from eachother aswell.
I never grew to like feders to be honest. I'll probably stay with "HEMA swords"... But I see why people might prefer the one or the other.
Great video.
How can a blunt sword have a safe edge as thick as a Feder's, keep a sharp sword's width and not be heavier than a sharp sword?
There are some blunt blades that use an exaggerated fuller to take mass out of the middle to compensate for the additional mass at the edge. You'll see this referred to as a "barbell" cross section.
My roommate has a lot of blunts he's not a swordsman though
I honestly never understood what's so great with buying steel blades for learning. They are more expensive than synthetics, do pose potentially greater threat (You'd want more protection), and the only benefits I can think of is that they look nicer (debatable ofc), and sound more authentic in sparring.
I'm all about the extra hand protection provided by the Shilt, so I'm Team Feder.
Plus, Feder Swords are a very handsome design.
For safety purposes I think Feders are a better option. If you really need to practice techniqes of cutting and thrusting with a blunted sword just to get a better idea of how to use a sharp one then you can always practice on inanimate objects.
I think that if you would want to engineer a safe practice sword while maintaining the balance and feel of a real one, you sort of arrive at the feder anyway. For a practice weapon you want it to be thick(er) to be safe. If you maintain a sword-like shape but increasing the thickness you get a heavy sword, sou you decrease the width. You can get a proper weight distribution without a schilt, but you pretty much always end up with a less wide thick blade. The blunt swords on the market over here go the heavy way, so they keep the shape but add on thickness to make it blunt enough and you get unwieldy clubs pretty much
My argument is that feders last long as they tend to have a thicker edge meaning the there is less change of the edge deforming.
On the US East coast, it comes down to the range and variety of feder makers being more understood and trusted than blunt sword makers. Feders are mostly designed for one purpose: training or competing in historic longsword arts.
However, there are so many more variables for how and where a blunt sword is used. Is it a cheap wall hanger? Is it a chunky theatrical sword designed to withstand years of abuse against the edge? Is it a reenactor's sword with a thin edge profile (not safe for sparring)? Is the metal tempered to withstand shattering when bent? Will it bend? Is the point safe to thrust?
There are safe blunt sword for our purposes. But they're also drowning in a sea of unsuitable look alikes. A tournament safety marshall can quickly inspect a feder from a reputable manufacturer and know it's likely safe. Far more difficult to do with the range of possibilities in a blunt sword; not impossible, just difficult for amateur volunteers in the chaos of a tournament.
A friend of mine recently got a custom made blunt longsword that si both more flexible and lighter in the hand than the two feders I have... :)
I don't have your experience but my instinct for why the design differences exist is that the feder is trying to make up the weight while keeping it safe and the blunt wants a more correct weight balance to a real sword. You didn't seem to address this in the video so I wonder if in your experience the weight distribution is the same and the feeling in the hand is also the same between the 2 types and you didn't feel the need to address it? Tbf you did say they could be the same but you didn't speak to how often that is the case.
Cheers.
1:17 Check out those awesome trousers!
I am inclined to Feders, but it’s mostly that they don’t look like swords. Well to much and that makes them easier to explain and less threatening.
Is the shilt made to protect the finger when fingering the guard as well?
what do you use for practice war hammer / pole axe?
3:26 - I have feder at home, and it have flat rounded point, all my friends have flat rounded point and all people from Poland I know, have it same. I would say its Westerner thing, to make it "safer". And I have to say, that your feder look really different from mine.
I´am actualy see the feder as potentualy more dangurous than the blunt, the blunts have more power in their strikes and thrusts so you get more brushes but i have over my 11 years in HEMA only seen 2 blunts break in trainings and tournaments and almost one feeder breakes at every tournament i have been to and have my self broken 4, and i will always say that a unnoticed broken sword is more dangurous than a powerfull blunt one. (sorry for bad English)
Get a brain, the blunt will puncture or not puncture and break ribs.
Feders flex, only if too often and too much they will beak.
Theres a reason why they used Feders hundrets of years ago, for almost the same purpose as us. They did not used blunts in Fechtschule.
A basic truth is that you fight the way you train. If you're training for longsword, train with a longsword! You may certainly blunt the longsword so that you'll still be able to fight with a sharp one when the time comes. In particular, if you train with a sword that has a blade-stopping extra feature ahead of the hilt, you will learn habits that you will have to unlearn when handling a real longsword which doesn't.
Of course the argument is a bit academic because Fiore et al. were training people to kill, and we don't do that. Instead we train people to compete. If you will be competing with a feder, then of course you should train with a feder.
At the end of the day as a training tool it's going to get scuffed up and tarnished. The grip will probably be held together with tape. So looking pretty is a bit of a non-issue.
As much as you mention inertia and mass and velocity, I will have my 7th grade students watch this video and write a report on the affects of mass and inertia on fencing.
Feder v Blunt, really does come down to the added hand protection provided by the shilt.
I prefer Control and Technique protecting me from injury, instead of equipment.
Besides, in almost all modern contexts, we have great hand protective equipment and don't need the shilt that the shirt sleeve, bare knuckle fighters in those treatises to keep our hands safe.
A blunt also has a shilt, in terms of protection---one that gradually tapers all the way to the tip.
the thing is that our gloves add a lot of bulk, so it's easier to hit the hands. Sometimes you get hits on the hand that just wouldn't have happened without the gloves and a Shilt negates that.
@@nicopetri3533that is true, I just have a preference to avoiding hits via technique vs concessions.
From my point of view, if i can prevent strikes to the glove it keeps the blade that much further from my hand.
Matter of preference. If i were to go fight in a tournament, shilt all the way as it's an advantage. But i neither drill, not spar with one.
The art we see in Classical Texts are not about sport but, rather training for the next Civil or Religious and such Wars. Tesshu and others even in the 19th century promoted giving and taking pain to/from your opponent as a learning experience. Also, most of the philosophy has not been passed down except in bits of Romance.
Snap Jelly did a video like this too
I think if it makes sparring relatively safe it is a very good thing the feder
Honestly I always though feders were used for german traditions like Meyer, I know a lot of Fiore traditions dislike how long feders tend to be on average. I think it just depends entirely on what you study. I started in Fiore, ended up preferring Lichtenauer.