E30 M3 vs. 190E Cosworth | Driver Battles
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
- We’ve seen our fair share of rare and desirable cars on Driving Line’s Driver Battles over the years, but this episode may just feature the rarest of them all. There are scant few Mercedes 190E Cosworths on the roads in America, and virtually none that are built for the track. That said, this is a race, not a car show, and JC Mendoza will have to push his 190E Cosworth in every corner to beat Mike Burroughs and his E30 M3 around Big Willow at Willow Springs Raceway.
0:00 Intro at Willow Springs
1:18 NT01 Track Review
2:16 BMW E30 M3 Build Breakdown
4:37 Mercedes 190E Cosworth Breakdown
7:10 Sign Up to Be in a Driving Line Driver Battle!
8:03 M3 vs 190E on the Track
9:50 Results from Big Willow
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You may be wondering why a Mercedes sedan from the ‘80s is so rare, but this isn’t like the other old Mercs you’ve seen puttering around on the street. The 190E Cosworth was only sold in the U.S. from 1986-1987, so there wasn’t that much time for these to sell, and JC Mendoza’s is an imported 1985 model year, making it even more rare stateside. On top of that he’s added a bunch of modifications, many of which he’s done himself since the car has so little parts support. He has a 2.3L 16V engine with ported plenum runners, headers and exhaust, along with an underdrive pully set, a Dkubus Cis-E piggy back, Ground Control coilovers, Porsche 996 brake calipers and 235/40R17 Nitto NT01 tires.
Going up against this ‘80s unicorn is Mike Burroughs and his BMW E30 M3. His car has quite the mods list, too, with cams, headers and exhaust added to his 2.5L S14 engine. On top of that, his M3 has H&R Motorsports coilovers, Brembo Club kit brakes, a Z3 steering rack, a full roll cage, and 235/40R17 Nitto NT01 tires.
With the grip levels the same and both drivers having been to Big Willow once before, the matchup couldn’t be fairer. This '80s track battle will come down the power the cars put out-and how the drivers can manage it.
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As a lover of both of them cars I feel like the 2.5 stripped out M3 beating the 2.3 not stripped out Merc was not a surprising result 😜
True
as you can maybe tell from my profile im all about the bmw but they did the 190e dirty, it was a semi track car, still had interior, lower power.. vs a full track car, more power, less weight, stiffer... also the driver mod seemed to be the biggest factor. still think it would win but not by 10+ seconds
it was obvious the BMW was going to win... upgraded brakes... coil overs stripped out everything... not even a like for like
Yeah unfortunately the E30 is more popular and i feel it would upset more people if the 190E won i own a 190E myself its not an EVO but it is a sportline 2.6
@@saibrogaming9901 I'm jealous! Mine's a 91 2.6... but not a Sportline 😒
@@andymerc190E stay jealous, you still have a 190E :)
No, it wouldn't win. The 190 is faster with a 2.5 configuration. Actually 2,463. With EFI of course. The 190 chassis is better than that of the M3. The BMW M3 is the car with the most victories but in relation to the many years in which it has competed. Which does not have so much merit if you think that it has competed in many different categories. The detail of victories of the Sierra Cosworth is more impressive. It is the car with the highest percentage of victories in which it competed. And it competed for much less years than the M3. I don't understand how these stupid European statistics can be impressive in the USA. And I have a 190 EVO2 but I competed with an M3 E30 group A ex Prodrive. But I will never forget my Sierra RS group A 3 doors
Would be a better comparison if the 190E was the 2.5 like that M3 was and it was stripped out like the M3 was but can't argue with the numbers, the E30 is a legendary car. Jc has been a legend in the 190E community, glad to see him and his car out there.
Yes it will be a better comparison if the Merc is stripped out.
I bought Delrin bushings for Benz manual transmissions from JC. Thanks to him, people from around the world get to modify and improve these cars which previously had rather dry after market.
And he's certainly sparked an interest around the world, because now you get allot of aftermarket tuning parts for these benzes. Theres about 3 different companies developing ITB's for these cars and you can easily find efi kits too
@@lawrenceyong2838 Instead, JC needs to lose some weight . . .🤣🤣🤣
The m3 could do with a close ratio racing box, that would make an ever bigger difference on tight tracks.
@@hueyfinesse how did you get ahold of him? My '91 is in serious need of a bushing and suspension overhaul
The M3 driver was so serious, judge by how he grab and control the steering like “I have to win that Merc.” which is good....
The 190e driver was chill as f.. , judge by how he smoothly step on gas and braking point like “I told you guys the parts was so hard to find. I dont wanna break the car.” Well , which is good also....
Both car was legend in their era. One made for a trackday or race, One for daily use. Expect nothing and you’ll be happy.
Good stuff. JC’s an absolute legend!
Both awesome cars but come on guys you can’t compare a track car to a street car, JC’s 190 did damn well in that respect and glad to see that FrankenCIS still working for you brother!
Both true enthusiasts! Loved hearing the passion as they spoke of their machines.
Yes!..Same here!
This is the coolest battle yet!
190e is way cooler facts
E
Benz is the greatest
E
Wow! Such amazing cars. Both drivers were really cool and I enjoyed learning more about these platforms. Really high quality video
As a rust bucket e30 owner, this satisfies me XD
Awesome show!!! Love both cars!!!
Nothing but love for both legendary Marques. Had both in the 90s. Def mods not equitable comparison, but always passionate & entertaining rivalry whenever my two loves get together! Thank you.
Both fantastic cars to own. I don't think that 190E had a fair fight, it's a 2.3 motor and still had most of its interior....if fact the legend stated that for M3 to beat the 190-16v was to change their motors from 2.3 L to 2.5L. As cool as both cars are, in my opinion the Benz's still wins because it can drive on the street.
Oh how i have missed this! Not gonna spoil it like someone else did down here but i could tell only by the intro who would win the battle! Thank you for the awesome videos! Hope more is coming soon!
Awsome thanks for the battle.
Great battle 👏
I still liked the video, but I am cheesed at the gap between the times. I'd like to see a stock Cosworth VS a stock M3
Miss these driver battles!
Such an iconic battle
Nice one! Almost impossible to choose between the two.
Can't wait to test out NT01's on my miata on the track!
JC is the king!
Just started watching this channel and love the driver battles. See if you can get Mike back on when he finishes his k-swapped Ferrari!
These legendary race car's. They are absolutely amazing in Assetto Corsa. Always choose either one. But lean towards the e30 M3
Sweet race... I would have liked to be there and feel the thrill on site!
Big Willow. Crazy fast. Knowing, or not knowing, the lines makes all the difference there probably more than any other track.
Close matchups are the best. Mismatches are the worst.
Hello, is there a Driver Battles leaderboard somwhere?
Hey guys where can see the specs of these cars? Great video. Tnx
As cool as this is, to be a fair battle, they really should be stock for stock.
or the benz should have been the 2.5 model. that e30 was a fully built race car vs an entusiast built 190
@@hueyfinesse they also made a 2.3 m3 in Europe. The non evo. If they wanted it to be fair, they'd test m3 evo to 190 evo 2. The 190e cosworth was a detuned version of the touring car where the m3 was homologation version just like the 190e evolution 1 and 2 were the homologation versions, not the standard cosworth
@@Clutchdjw both the early e30 m3 with 2.3 and the 2.3 cosworth was the early homoligation cars for DTM. and it kinda annoys me when people do these VS battles and always use the 2.3 vs the late e30 2.5 evo.
A car magazine in germany did a feature on these cars back when they was new, and they faced a e30 m3 2.3 against a 2.3 cosworth and the Benz won.
and considering that the benz is a more civilised car with 4 doors and a luxurius interior with electrical features thats quite a surprise.
@@hueyfinesse I'm a big fan of the 190's. My partner is too. She has one as her project. Stock for stock, the mercedes is all around a better car in both performance and aesthetics. 2.3 vs 2.3 or 2.5 vs 2.5 stock for stock. Not 2.3 vs 2.5 and so on. I agree
@@Clutchdjw Its great to meet another fan of the 190. I think the babybenz hasn't gotten the attention it deserves, Superb ride and great potential with stiffer suspension. For everyday tasks, its almost perfect.
Holy shit! The 190E got slapped. It would have been cool if the Merk was gutted and caged too! M3 had a massive power and weight advantage.
If you have a 2.5-16 its not a Cosworth, its a Merc cast head, only the 2.3-16's had the head cast by Cosworth in the UK :) Glad to see you have a 2.3-16 :)
Wrong 2.5 WAB’s were made in Cosworths Northampton foundry which is why the engine is given a Cosworth identification
WAA 2.3
WAB 2.5
WAC 2.5 Evolution race engines built at Cosworth
@@chiefrocka8604 Nope, Cosworth assisted with the later 2.5-16 engine (WAB), and the short-stroke 2.5-16 Evo engines (WAC) although these were all manufactured in house by Mercedes-Benz. Its common knowledge. Only the very early 2.5-16 heads were cast in the UK which bore the stamp Coscast.
I’d like to see this battle with stocks, not modified cars, and preferably same driver
JC. Are you running franken-cis K or KE-jet? I run a basically stock m117 in my 450slc drift car and it's been dead reliable for over 5 years. I love it. Going to get a bit more serious with a 5.6 ltr and I'm considering the DKUBUS setup. Also this was not a fair fight. I'd love to see weight of the cars as driven. I guarantee you have 3-500 pounds on the M3.
I would love to see that M3 become a full project to put as a close as possible DTM Version
JC says the Merc is reliable. Hell yeah it is, it proved that when it did 50,000km over the course of 204 hours driving flat out on the Nardò Ring.
I don't think anyone ever fielded a 190e in the British Touring Car Championship? Plenty of E30 M3 though!
What are those wheels on the 190E? I want them
The Merc did well considering the rather substantial handicap(s). Like for Like they really come down to drivers. I would like to see a coilover 535is with headers and decat compared to these two because that's what I drive, minus the coilovers and headers LOL.
While some people say the race was unfair, id agree, but lets remember both these cars have already raced fully stripped and prepped about 30 years ago and we all know how that ended 😂 both great chassis but the e30 M3 is called gods chariot for a reason
I mean a full blown race car vs street car what ya expect 🤷♂️ they need to run it back with a stripped out 190 version. Both cool cars, both legendary.
I would really prefer to see the 3,2 L EVO2 in comparison!
The m3 is a stripped out original born racer with less weight and more power. Opposite to the Merc. Still great numbers for both!
Very cool.
Normal the M3 wins: stock has 200hp; the 190E 2.3 16V has 185 stock.
I have the younger brother: the 190E 2.6 Sportline 166HP. Not bad 😃
Everybody slobbers all over the M3, but they don't have any idea about how GOOD the 190E was. Those things were beastly.
They are really good, I've driven both and own one of them...the Merc is great. The street cars are really different, the extra twist with the M3 makes it not a dtm car, but far from stock....which the merc essentially is....
Not gonna lie that Benz is WOW!
Weight of the drivers did not do justice.
The fight between which of these cars is the greatest will never end :D And Im all for it!!! Just like WRX's STi's and EVO's :D
EDIT: The M3 is probably going to win but i will take the Merc all day. Also I Think the M3 raced the 190E 2.5 in DTM...not the 2.3. And the Merc is a lot heavier and has less power in this comparison. Still 2 fantastic cars!!
Well. We know who really won this battle over and over again back in the 80's and 90's! 🤓
bravo for the m3!
Loved this video. I NEVER should have sold my 1988 Dinan M3 (Or either of my Alpinas for that matter..life happens). I would love to run my '72 2002 with an E30 M3 S14 engine against a Datsun 510 with a Nissan S14 engine (NA) someday on this channel.
in the video miniature image appears e90 m3
The E30M3 remains bae.
I WANT TO COMPETE ON DRIVER BATTLES!!
😍
That's a huge difference. I suspect the driver mod is big at play here.
Thumbnail says E90 M3 FYI.
This episode needed the GTR 32 to complete the race.
zero historical raceing connection with these cars
One more on the m3 shelf
2.3-16v was a good car except for the stupid lack of rack n pinion. The M3 was built better. I think the Cossie would be competitive had it had the proper Evo upgrades
what? It does not have a rack and pinion ?
@@Scarl3t03 it’s got a recirculating ball steering system. Kinda antiquated during that time but Mercedes decided to use it as it makes for easy steering. It doesn’t provide as much steering feel.
✊
M Powaaahhh!
How much does and E30 M3 and a 190E Cosworth costing nowadays? 🤔
m3 it's like 80k, 190 2.3 it's like 20k here in europe
it has must been the 2.5 16v evo (mercedes) vs (bmw e30 m3),,,little bit a shame ,,,,,
First of all the E30 is stripped unlike the 190E, weight has a factor and the E30 is 2.5lit compared to 190's 2.3lit. Why not arrange another comparison with 190E's 2.5lit. Guess it would be a good one
Track car vs oem plus
Two legendary cars. U S wouldn't know much about them.
You m3 owners like me, should check what is a 190E 2.3 16v or 2.5 16v because for real, the m3 was the copy of the 190E first of all...but in real life i prefer the m3 for budget reasons
That's not how it went in 1992 in DTM......
I have a 190 Evolution 1 with powerpack and a M3 E30 Sport Evolution.
The most faster Is the Mercedes.
Still the Merc is better inmy ooinion, just by the looks alone. Aand it drives like a dream! I mean normal one, never drove Cosworth
There is a pattern on this channel of pitting lightly modded street cars up against fully gutted, dedicated track cars. Have you guys considered trying to run cars o equal footing against each other? Otherwise it’s painfully predictable and not remotely fair...
NITTO: Fueled By Influencers
Not a big Mercedes fan but they got rawdogged on this one.
Benz is the greatest....the world should know
The m3 driver is like working is ass hard to drive.. But the 190e dude is just like cruising all the way... And i don't think this is a fair race.. Track car vs road car.. Come on!!!
190E should have the Euro spec 2.5L to be fair
...and stripped out interior and sound deadener, like the m3
This is far from a fair comparison. The m3 motor is stroked. May as well compare the benz and an e30 m3 with an s52. Everyone is an expert these days. Thanks youtube
The 190E 2.5-16 Evolution 2 destroid the m3 in 1992 touring car Saison all the way.
Evo2 of both 190 and e30 are just stunning.
Quattro Evolution - Then you wake up sweaty
M3
Love the 1983 190e 2.3 16v, was my first car. But if if my dad would’ve still had his 2002 Tii I would’ve probably ended up with a BMW e30 m3 instead and i would probably still have that car. The Mercedes 190e 2.3 16v was a bitch to get parts from Mercedes Benz and the engine head is complex and original parts non-existing. The only way to get by with that car is get a honda s2000 engine and mate it with the dog leg getrag tranny. However bmw had a better part all over. Real race car.
M Power 😊😊
2.3 vs a stripped out 2.5.......a small driver vs a much heavier driver. Plus maybe unequal driving skills too.
Benz is the greatest...the world should know
…a dedicated track car vs a guy that virtually refuses to modify fml
Sierra sapphire cosworth orada olmalıydı..
BMW FROM 1988...
It’s always nice to see when little brothers play out in Ze back yard, and Yell and claim what they want, I’m Superman I’m bAtman. Lol. when both of you are ready to grow up Find a Driver and big brother, Porsche’s 944s2 twin cam 4 cylinder, or DOHC 3.0 968, he’ll even the SOHC 2.5 NA/Turbo would put doubt into your German Manufacturer claims with a 4 cyl, They didn’t want to race it in the 80s and wouldnt want to race it now.
that m3 looks beat up
Мерседес выглядит более блестяще. М3 немного подуставший.
They should really hire a professional driver to drive both cars to eliminate driver skill from the equation
I think that is somewhat the point of the driver battle, but it would be interesting to see
I vote randy pobst!
Пасаны у меня 190!!!
Вы как маленькие мальчики перед мной
Very unfair -Benz Guy 🤓
Sounds like the annoying fly buzzing around your ear while you try to sleep.
BMW beats Mercedes and Porsche here
E30 is a dedicated gutted track car so not as much of a balanced race.
Пишите мне друзья
RS500 trumps them both.
BULLSHIT 🚮 THE MODS ON A BMW WAS JUST TOO MUCH FOR IT TO BE CALLED STOCK UNFAIR COMPARISON BUT IN REALITY THE E190 WON
190e driver lol