These kinds of discussions usually leave out big body/brawler characters that are huge and loaded with armor but not grapplers. I have never really played Zangief in SF but I love Abigail for example. Big Band is probably the best example, along with Marvel 3 Hulk or Marvel 2 Juggernaut. I'll play a grappler just fine, and some of these characters are One-Shot, but I mostly want to take up a lot of space. My favorite ArcSys characters are Z Broly, Kliff & Goldlewis if you can't tell.
We need more characters like granblue Vaseraga I want myself a big body who is simply an unstoppable force Preferably with an install and plated armour upon armour for extra intimidation factor
Setplay is definitely always going to be strong because it's inherently the strongest way to play. Knockdown situations have the least amount of interaction, so they're by far the most consistent win condition. When you build a character around that win condition, you have to try REALLY hard to make them not at least okay
In theory, but I think that setplay's strength is highly dependent on the speed of neutral. In IJ2, Joker has some of the strongest setplay in the game (true unblockables or 1-3f fuzzy hard to blockables on knockdown), but generally was considered fairly weak because despite having one of the best anti-airs in the game, he could not win neutral reliably enough to apply his wincon. Red Hood had strong setplay as well and ended up quite good, but this was supported heavily by how strong his neutral tools were, and after significant damage nerfs (with his average bnb damage coming down from 37-42% to somewhere around 26-32%), he struggled a fair bit more closing out games. I think GGST has made folks overestimate how good setplay characters are lately, as most games I've played have had relatively weak setplay characters, as they've had such poor neutral options, or their win-con required so many other conditions (specific amounts of meter, specific knockdowns in games with non-standard wakeup timings, character specific resource available, the opponent to lack certain defensive/wakeup options) that people seem to think that setplay=instant win.
@@sylascole5254 I don't think Strive has had people overrating setplay at all. In fact, most of the best characters in that game are NOT setplay, and Millia and Potemkin, two of the characters with the strongest setplay, are some of the weakest in the game. The point is, setplay is so strong, that a character needs significant weaknesses to not be good. It IS possible to give a character those weaknesses, but more often than not they end up strong.
That's def not true lol. There's plenty of setplay chars with some truly degenerate options on knockdown but their neutral sucks so bad they'll never access it consistently *on top* of all their standard archetype weaknesses. Ginyu for most of dbfz, Zato in Rev 2 and +R, Jacko in s1 of Strive, etc
@@NeoBoneGirl you could say the same about neutral. Zoning is so strong that they have to nerf defense and restrain the ability to cover the whole stage to make it fair. Fighting games are fun because we pick are strengths and flaws at the character select screen and try to overcome our opponents who've done the same. If you main Akuma for example you know what you are gonna have to fight hard against and what you can just steamroll the opponent with. Same with picking Athena, Carl or Fiona Mayfield. But tbh if a character just cranked up zoning to 11 and won neutral and had a get out of jail free card too, set play wouldn't really come into play no matter how strong so I'd say neutral is more important because it comes first. But because of that it won't or shouldn't ever get as strong as set play can since you simply won't be able to play the game if the disparity is too high.
@@tbc1880 Neutral by definition will always have more ways to interact with it than knockdown situations though. This is why while zoning can be good, you have to go way more overboard with it than you do with setplay to make it the best. Even HC's zoning isn't the best part of his kit, after all.
I think a big reason zoners and setplay characters tend to be so strong is because of how meter is used in a lot of modern games. Something I've always disliked about arcsys games is that meter resets in between rounds and burst doesn't. Setplay and puppet characters can usually start their mix meterlessly, and simply use meter to secure a kill or extend pressure if they need to, while the defenders options are limited and unrewarding without meter. If you get hit by a decent starter before you have bar it's very tempting to burst, because there's a decent chance you'll die, or at least lose most of your life before you get the meter and the opportunity to use the better defensive options. And even if you do, the best setups can cover, or at least mitigate some metered options. And once you lose the round you're back at square one. It's even worse with zoners since they almost never need to spend super meter to maintain their zoning, and most characters don't have metered answers to zoning. Even characters that can reliably use meter to get in can be blown off by burst or DA (RIP) in most cases, and the zoner doesn't suffer as much opportunity cost since they weren't going to use that resource offensively anyway. Nu is the classic example for me. It's demoralizing when she bursts, it's frustrating, infuriating even. And I know I have to be patient, but it's hard to be while you watch as the burst gradually comes back. At least before CP if Nu/Lambda bursted in round one you wouldn't have to deal with it again for a while (In my case, for the rest of the game because it's not like I won round two...). In both of these cases it feels like the small amounts meter build don't amount to anything substantial, in the long run it doesn't feel like there's a good strategy in these matchups as far as meters concerned. On the flipside, in games with persistent meter I can cut my losses in round one and play for round two. Even if I don't necessarily have a meter lead I have enough to feel like I can run my game plan. This is something I love about UNI, It's doesn't feel as bad to get zoned out by Vatista or steamrolled by Byakuya if I can focus on building meter and try to make a comeback in round two. Personally I feel like it makes meter management more fun since building GRD is such a nuanced resource. But even ignoring this, it makes for an interesting dynamic from round to round. Even if my plan pays off I'll have to end the round with enough meter to run the same strategy in the final game. And even if it doesn't work out, I at least got to try something different instead of losing in a similar way in both rounds. To put it simply, It feels like I get to play, and that's not something most people say about these kinds of characters. That said, Vat's still undisputed top-one In UNI so zoners gonna zone either way.
Most of these archetypes can be boiled down to functional aspects. Stuff like how they beat blocking, how/when they get advantage, damage vs health, movement, range. The biggest outliers are joke, items/rng, puppet characters, mimic/steal characters, and game specific mechanic characters, though each character overlaps with the common archetypes.
SF5's Poison is probably the best example of a top-tier normal zoner, and I think part of that keeping you out isn't her only win condition. She's as dangerous up close as she is at range and can force you into a strike-throw situation very easily, so it may just be because she's not a pure normal zoner.
I think that's more so how most zoners are supposed to be played in more balanced games. You use the fact that zoning works well for you to force your opponent into mistakes by not zoning, and then pushing them back out from what ground they've gained and resetting the marathon for them.
@@tbc1880 Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think that zoners should be able to start an offense and have decent pressure tools, but in the case of Poison specifically I think her close-range pressure tools are just so strong that they elevate her up to top tier. You've got to fight through her long range buttons, allowing her to build meter to vacuum you into her plus frames. You're kind of screwed if you don't trade your V-Meter for her meter.
This is exactly why INJ2 Dr. Fate was so strong. He could destroy you at range but against characters that could get in on him he had great get off me moves to put you back at full screen plus the threat of the strike throw with Trait grab was so scary. When zoners are designed this way they're so fun to play and watch.
specifically it's the fact that you basically just can't use v-trigger due to the way her offense works. if you cut off your access to v-reversal her offense is so dangerous you often just lose on the spot
Great video, I love the concept! It’s something I think about all the time, especially when a new game comes out and I’m searching for a new character/team to play. I would like to give my take on how I would split up Morrigan’s all encompassing projectile zoner. Ideally it would split into 3 separate categories. Honestly, they are conceptually similar enough to put in one category, but they have enough differences to warrant separation into at least two categories i.e. projectile keep away vs projectile control. They do mix a lot though… - (Traditional) Zoner / Wall Huggers - Representatives: Morrigan, Peacock, Vatista, Glacius - These characters capitalize on their long range projectiles for the sole purpose of knocking back the opponent, or knocking them down to get away and create more space. They differentiate themselves as the most defensive zoners because they generally have high reward via damage / combos, or hard knockdowns / advantage to continue space control simply by hitting with their projectiles. They tend to have a good mix of different speed projectiles, and often have the highest speed projectiles relative to the rest of the cast (beams more often than not). Generally the more pure a zoner is, oddly enough, they tend to have at least one defensive option, in either an invincible reversal or the ability to teleport away. They often have poor health / stun thresholds when the game balances for such things. From a screen space perspective, they thrive at max distance, and suck ass in the mid and close range. They often have more trouble with mid range characters due to having at least one defensive option to combat close range characters. - Neutral Skippers - Representatives: Dizzy, Venom, Litchi - These characters have projectiles and strong offense much like the Zoner or a Setplay character, but lack the high reward or lower risk that those archetypes have in trade for good offense in both (really all) distances. They often use their projectiles to either chip out a low health opponent due to low reward at longer distances, or simply use their projectiles to win neutral and allow themselves a “free” way to get in on the opponent. They benefit greatly on knockdowns where they can set up a safe mix via delayed projectiles, but are often left with horrible defense; having little or no invincible reversals, no meterless reversals at all, or having low health / low stun thresholds. Looking at it from a screen space perspective, they thrive in the mid range which allows them to enter close range on their terms, but are capable in long range when needed. They lack in both long and close range compared to those range’s archetype specialists and often need to change their playstyle to accommodate for those archetype matchups. - Trap / Zone control - Representatives: Testament, Byakuya, Naoto (Persona), Kokonoe? - These characters tend to be more defensive than the Neutral Skippers, but more capable of close / mid range fighting with their buttons compared to the Zoner. Due to their control coming from traps / threats that linger on screen for a long period of time, they control a zone that the opponent must either avoid for its long duration, or go out of their way to make that zone safe again. The traps often have long duration compared to most other projectiles, but have a method to completely negate them outside of player to player interaction. They tend to be more stable as far as their own gameplan compared to Neutral Skippers. While most opponents have to think differently when facing a trap character, it often just means that they can choose to play a mini game where they can “unlock space” or “win safety back” in that zone by either spending some time or advantage to do so. Often, but not always, accompanied by resource management (That could be an archetype in and of itself), and again, lacking on defense in some way. The main reason I bring this up though is because I tend to gravitate towards Neutral Skippers or Trap characters, and avoid the more traditional zoner even so much as to play a more close range / mid range focused archetype instead.
I usually like the big Zangief type grappler since they’re usually mechanically simple (if harder to do well with), so they’re nice as something to play on the side for some variety.
Given the number of moves and modifiers they added for SF6 for other characters, I'm hoping that Zangief finally has more than two moves. He desperately needs a good strike move to throw out there instead of banking exclusively on the SPD
After picking up a lot of fighting games I stared to realize that all the characters I gravitate towards have one thing in common, Some type of "Meter" Management (Nago, Chaos, Sin, Raven, Aegis, Android 21 {I don't know if Vaseraga and Percival count}). You get to feel "smart" when you manage the meter correctly while simultaneously feel dreadful when doing poorly and be punished for it.
It gives visual confirmation to the player and opponent what your full scope of possibilities is. The real difficult part for that type of mechanic is making the resource cost "fair". I can't think of a good example where it is a point of contention but I'd think happy chaos on release is a good example and Zato to an extent. I don't think Zato is busted but an argument I have been hearing for characters with meter management is the recovery rate of said resource when lost. How much time do you give both players to interact in the game state where both people know that you are weaker without a resource? Alternatively are the costs of using the resource respectable for the amount of weight it has in neutral which is the vibe I get from Happy Chaos.
@@mirror2922 I dunno what kind of Happy you've been fighting but his resource costs in are not fair in any sense; he replenishes them so easily they might as well not exist most of the time
@@juniperrodley9843 that is exactly my point the balancing of the character then becomes about the resource drain usage rate and what they are using meter for.
I think the most important point with grapplers is that they are mostly knowledge checks on the opponent and at higher levels that becomes harder to come by (someone who doesn't know the matchup). So the winrate drops as does popularity.
And you don't think that's horrific? Grapplers have spent too long with such a poor design philosophy that makes them dysfunctional at higher levels. I don't care if you have to nrrf the power. They can have mobility. They can have fast moves. It's not hard or impossible. If you can't do that, do not release your game.
@@gigizaderg9270 I honest to god think its fun to be a slow moving dude who inches their way in and then the opponent explodes. It's why I always pick zangief in Street Fighter.
@@Thomazbr Okay but that archetype doesn't work at higher levels. You move so slow that your opponent can see what you're doing from a mile away. That's why Zangief is bad in SF5. I'm saying FG devs should take these issues more seriously so grapplers (especially slow, large ones) aren't underpowered.
@@gigizaderg9270 Zangief is bad because they removed 1 key move he has and the system just plainly doesn't work for him. Zangief was actually getting pretty good in SF5, but the addition of V-Shift made things even worse for Gief. But meanwhile in SF4 Zangief was a perfectly fine and competitive character with someone like SnakeEyez placing high through out the entire game. Having Green Hands certainly helps
Why sf4 gief works is because he has the bare means to atleast participate in footsies and not get memed on completely. Im not sure why some devs feel like grapplers should lack a single midrange punish or a forward dash. Meanwhile at the fast grappler side of things its looney tunes, clark just hopping from fullscreen and delay armor pointing your neutral jump, abel doing stepkicks into albeit slow but meaty cmd grabs.
Feel like mid dispenser can sometimes become a blanket term that doesn't acknowledge some key characteristics about certain characters imo. Like, the archetype can make sense for characters like sol and nago who mostly wanna oppress (and dispense) but I think theres too much variance to rekka and stance characters for them to be considered in that category There's enough examples of rekka characters like kof angel whose style of pressure is practically a choose your own adventure experience, and the idea of a character with different stances can be so broad that even someone like GG leo could technically be described as a stance character
I sort of used to think this way, but a bunch of time I have seen some of these chars just either go towards dispensing mids or falling into the rushdown/mix up category. For 3d fighters it might be different though
@@LordKnightfgc That's fair honestly. I might not be aware of too many characters in those categories that just wanna go in. But yeah for fighters like tekken I can think of a couple stance characters like lei who are just very weird lol
Damn, this vid was a super interesting discussion. Good shit LK. Just to throw some of my thoughts no one asked for into the ring: Stance characters: I know you just called them mid dispensers, but I think they deserve their own archetype. I think generally they end up being above average characters. I think true stance characters are essentially multiple characters. Yeah you have to learn multiple characters to play them, but the often have tools to deal with everything and learning to play them is mostly about learning to know what tool you'll need when. I think as a result, they tend to have an above average matchup spread across the game. Best examples are SFV Zeku and Aria from KI. Defense characters (you mentioend these are the end): I think these characters wib condition often lies in their defense. I think these tend to be storing as they warp the game around them. +R Baiken parrying from block or 3S Q getting is biggest reward off of good parrying. Trap Characters: I just feel like even those this archetype is rare, it's always strong whenever it shows up. I just think these characters' strength lies in the fact that they're usually taking away options from their opponent. They often sometimes feel like they're even able to checkmate you similar to some puppet characters, but I'd say their offense isn't as strong. Good examples are Cagliostro from GB, +R Testament, or UmvC3 Rocket Raccoon.
At their worst the S tier archetypes are just as bad as any other bad character, however at their best they make it a one player game, unlike the other archetypes which nearly always leave some room for the other player to interact.
That's generally the difference between A-tier and S-tier. A-tiers are honest, and you can predict how to react to the end of their combos to give yourself advantage in a game. S-tiers are dishonest and typically retain advantage after a combo or have a TOD that doesn't let you play for the whole match.
What you said about set play and projectile zoners being powerful is true. But I think that the throw invulnerability on wake up that a lot of games have now, or the weakening of normal throws in general (look at DBFZ) shows how powerful mid dispensers and fast grapplers can be. So something else to mention about slow grapplers, is that anything done to nerf other archetypes also effects them. More defensive mechanics hurts them, anti set play mechanics hurt them etc. variable wake up vs a set play character and they make an option to beat both timings and cover their offence, but vs a grappler you miss your command grab and get punished
The resource character is one that didn't get mentioned either. The one that kids access to a limited amount of an incredibly powerful thing, and exactly how good they are is almost directly tied to how loose or tight the game is with allowing them to have that resource Happy chaos is a character with two separate resources that he has to manage, but he's designed in a way that he doesn't really have to worry about running out of either all that often so then he just becomes a really good version of a long range zoner because the resource mechanic isn't actually limiting him much. Joker and Steve in smash are also good versions of this. Whereas the gimmick character might be a weaker subclass of this, Phoenix wright building up his resources to activate a high power mode, or Yoshi in Sam Sho having to play a mini game to unlock the best move in the game
I feel like a resource character will usually fall into one of the other archetypes, like HC would be considered a projectile zoner and both Zato and Carl would be considered puppet characters. To further complicate things, some games like BlazBlue and Rushdown Revolt have multiple characters with their own character-specific resources, and it doesn't make sense to group half the cast under the same archetype just because they all have a unique resource. I feel like the one situation where having a resource character archetype would be useful is specifically when it overlaps with the gimmick character archetype. A gimmick character is just a character that's built around achieving a particular non-standard win condition, and managing a resource could be that win condition. I feel like that's a better fit for Steve since his win condition is built around gathering materials for items instead of more standard win conditions like ledge trapping. It also fits other characters like Phoenix Wright's Turnabout Mode, Tarara's level-ups, and Velora's The Kraken (although Velora has other tools too that let her fit into other archetypes).
I started playing Xrd Millia for a couple of months before Strive's release, and then I also chose Millia in that game. I started playing UNI and I chose Byakuya. I picked up GBVS and I chose Zeta and Cag. And when I tried BBCF, I chose Kokonoe As you can see, I like me my setplay/oki characters xD
Just wanted to say that since you mentioned wanting to try kof, there's gonna be a big crossplay update for kof 15 sometime during 2023 (dunno when exactly). Would be really fun to watch you try the game if you decide to do it.
How would you categorize parry/defensive characters like Geese Howard, or Jubei from SamSho, or Hakumen, or Baiken? I feel like they deserve to be a category of their own. Generally the strength of this archetype is pretty high, too. It also might be worth having a category for trap characters, though that's more uncommon, and you COULD just consider a lot of trap characters to be in the projectile zoner category.
i'v seen these characters called "Reversal" characters or the Reversal archetype. My definition based on my interpretation is as follows: Reversal characters are characterized by having powerful defensive options in the form of guard cancels, guardpoints, counters, raversals, etc, and they use them to force opponents to rethink the way they structure their offense, being that their biggest strenght. For example, you cannot pressure Baiken with the same strings you could use with any other character because she can attack during block stun (guard cancels). I also consider Anji in strive to be a reversal character because he force opponents to respect his guardpoints and kachoufuugetsu. If a character forces the opponents to think how to attack then is probably a reversal character, but that's just how i see it.
I had chars that are trap chars fall under projectile zoning, most of them use traps + long range normals. Defense chars are good, def screwed up not including them but I mentioned in the end they are prob around A tier overall.
It would’ve been nice to have Brawlers like big band, Ralf or recently Marissa. But another archetype would be multi-stance characters. You discussed my boy Johnathan Sfondi but like you said, he’s a mid dispensing rush down type, but I think the distinction to multi stance like my boys Gen, Zappa and Zeku would’ve been nice because even though they’re all very different in practice, fundamentally they’re like puppet/item toss characters, constantly changing the pace and options their opponent needs to look for
I wonder what Garchomp from Pokken Tournament would be defined as. They have a decent command grab and some elements of rushdown but the biggest draw is they're better at using the game's built in RPS system, where some attacks beat strikes but lose to grabs.
Is it me, or is there a lot of overlap with One-Shot characters using Greatswords? While they're all kind of slower than Makoto, they all seem to have very similar attributes like: - huge range/space control with the weapon - massive damage output when catch you - highly momentum based - sub-par defense - big s-word Character's like: Nagoriyuki (GG Strive) Kliff Undersn (GG) Tusk (Killer Instinct) Kagura Mutsuki(BB) Nightmare (Soul Calibur)
i think aganos, raam, and mira are better fits fur that archetype. aganos wants to set up walls and hit you with shadow rocks fur massive unbreakable damage, mira and raam just fucking delete you if you get hit with their instinct active. tusk has high damage but a lot of where it comes from is his powerful damage ender and his beefy sword normals. his lockout damage is strong but he doesn't really have the same type of "one shot" gameplan in the context of KI's system, he has to RPS you after the hit more than the others.
Puppet characters for me will always be the most egregious. Because they always combine extremely stupid setplay with god neutral on TOP of the best blockstring offense. Like Millia hits you and runs a spooky mixup and then its over. Carl runs 3 mixups in a blockstring, and if he hits you once he unblockable loops you.
You forgot one archetype: The Jack-of-all Trades character, the char that can do at least a bit of everything. And no, it's not a shoto, because shotos have a very specific template with their movesets. I'm talking about chars that have at least a bit of everything and there moves don't follow a certain mold. For example, Reptile from Mortal Kombat.
Remember when people thought Vlov, a projectile zoner that starts 'weak' but gets stronger when he loses, was gonna be bad in Melty because of shield? Turned out, he was amazing at dealing with shield AND they had to nerf shield anyway! And Japan STILL thinks this character is bad and inconsistent.
I feel like Yun from 3S represents two separate archetypes that aren't on the list, divekick characters and install characters, where while divekick characters can be described as rush down it's not really what Yun ends up doing (he mostly runs away due to the install part) and to me is a very distinct style of movement that isn't encapsulated by say ninja characters or other rushdown types due the ease of faking/baiting movement. Then on the install side of things it's the defining trait of the character for most people, wherein the character flip flops from regular/mediocre to super powerful and the matchup revolves around gaining or preventing the ability to enter the install state. Other than that seems like you captured most things!
I Always tend to play shotos or mid dispenser when i first pick up the game, then when i'm enough confident with game mechanics and stuff i tend to play setplay characters or normal zoners characters. I Always try puppet characters everytime 'cause i think they're the coolest, but It never clicks for me and generally struggle a lot. By far i'd say that setplay characters are my favorite out of all archetypes tho
Another thing characters that fall into more than one of these categories end up being very strong especially in modern games as they have many options to rotate through vs the more linear members of the cast. Ex: pre nerf android 16. Leo strive
solid content concept & execution. 👍 don't you think the emphasis of this list is not just 'character' archetypes but 'mechanic' archetypes❔️ the difference is subtle, but a list of 'mechanics' highlights playstyle peaks 🗻 where a 'character' list notes the complete package 🗂 of characters. do you see how this list might exaggerate mechanical extremes?
This is a good video and an interesting look at fighting game archetypes but feel that the projectile zoners is a bit too high up. Historically so were thay busted but the last real projectile zoner that was absurd was UMVC3 Morigan and that's more then 10 years ago. I will say that i am not 100% sure that H.Chaos fits into the projectile zoner camp, yes he attacks you from full-screen but he feels more like a mid dispenser with infinite reach.
You clearly didn't see projectile-based Zoners in NRS/WB games. There are some super strong projectile Zoners in these games and it's going even to this day in MK11 and they are all go from solid to super strong. Jade, Shang Tsung, Mileena, RoboCop, Cetrion etc;, they are all powerful characters.
When talking about 21 you said “near unblockable setup.” What do you mean by this? Does she have like high/low/left/right/throw all in one unseeable mix, or is it just an unseeable 50/50? Because calling something near unblockable would have to be more than a 50/50 and i dont remember crazy shit like that from 21
I have a vid of it, it is getting the yellow steal > DR > if they tech the DR you do the air command grab. Dunno about now but it led to 60-70% in s3/3.5
CAN we talk about the « restance » character ( they can « not » put u in the situation at the end of their combo for force u to standup and get a mix »
I said this on stream and I'll say it again Neko can never be D-tier Unless you move her up to SSSSSS Tier your opinion is invalid. But assuming you did do that, the video was super great Was really cool to see which chars you thought represented each archetype as well which archetypes you thought existed in general. Really got me thinking about which type of character X person is. 10/10 Move Neko up the list
Grappler players: "Fuck tier lists. I'll pick whatever tf I want". Also, when it comes to archetypes I'd leave SNK mostly out of the ecuation since they tend to mix up the type of commands and moves. You can have chars with comand grabs and charge moves and fireballs. They don'y design characters based on this rules for the most part. Obviously there are exceptions.
I wonder what archetypes was missing. I see some people saying about the brawlers, and stance character, and really would like to know what more archetypes are missing and what they do if possible. If anyone could say it to, I'll appreciate a lot. Besides, I live the video, for me is the best video of those that try to talk about this subject. Cheers
Oh- I was curious what about characters that just charge a bar or some source to do something powerful or useful? or depends on a bar for those moves- u know, like Tsubaki in BB or Nazuna in Arcana heart, Perceival in GBvs, like that? ... but maybe is not something common, like counter/parry oriented characters... like Zeta from GBvs or Kasumi from KoF...
One of the games I played for the longest period of time was BB, so generally I don't think a character having a resource is an archetype - rather, what they do with that resource leans more into what type of character they are.
@@LordKnightfgc I see... well, then is a mechanic that accompanies the playstyle, right? that makes more sense ... btw thanks a lot for the answer ovo!
i think neco arc and strive Faust are the only "bad" item throwers. I say "bad" because Faust is getting lots of significant buffs, and because of the fact he has a huge skill ceiling, this makes it so that pros can do absolutely crazy shit Petition to make j2k plus on hit :)
Same. I always gravitate to a mid dispenser or shoto in pretty much any fighting game I play. I guess it doesn't help that Ryu was the first character I ever used in a fighting game back in the early 90s. Been hooked on the shoto playstyle ever since mainly because it's a very digestible playstyle and it allows me to go on auto-pilot when picking up a new fighting game. Eventually, I'll branch out into the other archetypes once I feel comfortable with the game. But if I'm serious about winning, shotos and mid-dispensers all day long.
setplay characters are monsters in bracket because of how easy they are on your brain. A shoto type character has to play neutral for almost the full 99 seconds, as opposed to setplay characters who just knock them down and then pick from a list of 3 or 4 options to kill with. A shoto player ends up having to make a lot more real decisions on a tournament day where the setplay character needs to win neutral a lot less times.
Ofc depends on the char, but the biggest blessing of a set play char of an event is how chill it is once you get the hit for sure. Degen set play example is like p4 Chie, everything leads into kd into spinning rims into 50/50. Millia is a demon but at least she usually can't confirm EVERYTHING into doom lol
@@LordKnightfgc I also like zoning over the course of a day in a tournament setting. You're just out there spamming special moves all day and hoping they don't get close lol. It's definitely taxing but I always feel good about my wins.
Jmcrofts is hella cute he better not show up at irl tourneys because I want to carry him around like a bowling ball you know, 3 finger claw style then roll him through the chairs of the crowd at a grand finals he doesn't really care about like sailor moon and then he has to bashfully excuse himself I forget what my point was But I bet jmcrofts would handle it like the champ he is
i think putting ryu as the "system" guy is kind of ironic since for the longest time in SFV he couldn't use the crush counter system since his HK launched.
Coming a bit late, what do you think boxers archetypes like Slayer and Dudley fall into ? Slayer feels like a OS character for sure but he plays neutral quite differently i feel, highly defensive and playing around baiting the opponent to dare hit them.
Arcsys archetypes are usually combinations of many anyway. Like jacko HC. And because throw is so good, everybody is kinda of a grappler (still to this day lmao)
Install characters usually suck, in a team game they're less of a liability though because it's a 2.5 v 3 or whatever and you can use your team to support your weaker form. In solo games though I haven't seen a good one in a while. They usually ramp up from like a c tier to an A/S tier once they get going, so maybe a B tier?
Kind of a grappler. In SF there’s the term “hybrid grappler” for Alex, Abel, and Laura where their weaknesses aren’t as pronounced as with Zangief, but the actual reward on strike/throw is lower and less slanted towards throw.
do you consider "Footsie" characters to be valid? I do, Hydro has a fantastic video about archetypes where he describes what he consider to be footsie characters. Also, i wonder if what you call mid dispenser are footsie character, to me they are similar in how many mid pokes they have
Rush down characters have no range and need to force the opponent to do nothing for mixups while midrange characters have more range and can do their moves whenever they want
Rushdown mixup characters tend to have very unsafe options and will be full combo'd if you call it out correctly. Mid dispensers can typically run safe on block gapless pressure till they have meter to make the risky stuff more safe
@@PopfulAdvantage what makes leo so good is that he's a mid dispenser that can run safe on block offense really easily and then he becomes a mixup character on kd or throw
Grapplers low tier across all of fighting games, unlucky Good analysis tho, LK. I think I'm gonna carry this forward with me as I learn new fighting games or continue to play current/older titles. I think having this sort of frame of reference will help general-purpose knowledge and give me something else to build a foundation on.
Where do Xrd and Strive Jack-O' even fall in this? Xrd one maybe is kind of a not-too-bad joke character I guess... But I think it's wrong deeming any gimmicky character ad joke character, I don't play Joke characters I play gimmicks or system mechanics I guess lol
Unless the armor has fast recovery, armor is usually a bad gimmick because movement is better the higher you go up. I think the most go to example is sfv gief. He's got a punch in neutral that he can charge, and then a flex he can hold, or walk with, and he really gets walked all over if he tries to punish his way in with these because they're reactable neutral options. Tager is another example where....the armor has a very specific function in a game where you can rotate strong options, Azrael too.
These kinds of discussions usually leave out big body/brawler characters that are huge and loaded with armor but not grapplers. I have never really played Zangief in SF but I love Abigail for example. Big Band is probably the best example, along with Marvel 3 Hulk or Marvel 2 Juggernaut. I'll play a grappler just fine, and some of these characters are One-Shot, but I mostly want to take up a lot of space. My favorite ArcSys characters are Z Broly, Kliff & Goldlewis if you can't tell.
We need more characters like granblue Vaseraga
I want myself a big body who is simply an unstoppable force
Preferably with an install and plated armour upon armour for extra intimidation factor
A lot of Smash heavyweights like Bowser go here, too. I think Antonov from KoF is definitely an example as well.
@@crapstickmemento4132 granblue Vaseraga nearly made me take that game seriously despite the lack of rollback, he's so fucking cool
You also have like gigas in tekken who is that.
@@evilded2 speaking of tekken I'd love to see this for 3d games personally I still can't wrap my head around how archetypes fit into them at all.
Setplay is definitely always going to be strong because it's inherently the strongest way to play. Knockdown situations have the least amount of interaction, so they're by far the most consistent win condition. When you build a character around that win condition, you have to try REALLY hard to make them not at least okay
In theory, but I think that setplay's strength is highly dependent on the speed of neutral. In IJ2, Joker has some of the strongest setplay in the game (true unblockables or 1-3f fuzzy hard to blockables on knockdown), but generally was considered fairly weak because despite having one of the best anti-airs in the game, he could not win neutral reliably enough to apply his wincon. Red Hood had strong setplay as well and ended up quite good, but this was supported heavily by how strong his neutral tools were, and after significant damage nerfs (with his average bnb damage coming down from 37-42% to somewhere around 26-32%), he struggled a fair bit more closing out games.
I think GGST has made folks overestimate how good setplay characters are lately, as most games I've played have had relatively weak setplay characters, as they've had such poor neutral options, or their win-con required so many other conditions (specific amounts of meter, specific knockdowns in games with non-standard wakeup timings, character specific resource available, the opponent to lack certain defensive/wakeup options) that people seem to think that setplay=instant win.
@@sylascole5254 I don't think Strive has had people overrating setplay at all. In fact, most of the best characters in that game are NOT setplay, and Millia and Potemkin, two of the characters with the strongest setplay, are some of the weakest in the game.
The point is, setplay is so strong, that a character needs significant weaknesses to not be good. It IS possible to give a character those weaknesses, but more often than not they end up strong.
That's def not true lol. There's plenty of setplay chars with some truly degenerate options on knockdown but their neutral sucks so bad they'll never access it consistently *on top* of all their standard archetype weaknesses. Ginyu for most of dbfz, Zato in Rev 2 and +R, Jacko in s1 of Strive, etc
@@NeoBoneGirl you could say the same about neutral. Zoning is so strong that they have to nerf defense and restrain the ability to cover the whole stage to make it fair. Fighting games are fun because we pick are strengths and flaws at the character select screen and try to overcome our opponents who've done the same.
If you main Akuma for example you know what you are gonna have to fight hard against and what you can just steamroll the opponent with. Same with picking Athena, Carl or Fiona Mayfield.
But tbh if a character just cranked up zoning to 11 and won neutral and had a get out of jail free card too, set play wouldn't really come into play no matter how strong so I'd say neutral is more important because it comes first. But because of that it won't or shouldn't ever get as strong as set play can since you simply won't be able to play the game if the disparity is too high.
@@tbc1880 Neutral by definition will always have more ways to interact with it than knockdown situations though. This is why while zoning can be good, you have to go way more overboard with it than you do with setplay to make it the best. Even HC's zoning isn't the best part of his kit, after all.
I'm forever going to call playing against Item Throw characters as playing WarioWare from now on.
I think a big reason zoners and setplay characters tend to be so strong is because of how meter is used in a lot of modern games.
Something I've always disliked about arcsys games is that meter resets in between rounds and burst doesn't. Setplay and puppet characters can usually start their mix meterlessly, and simply use meter to secure a kill or extend pressure if they need to, while the defenders options are limited and unrewarding without meter. If you get hit by a decent starter before you have bar it's very tempting to burst, because there's a decent chance you'll die, or at least lose most of your life before you get the meter and the opportunity to use the better defensive options. And even if you do, the best setups can cover, or at least mitigate some metered options. And once you lose the round you're back at square one.
It's even worse with zoners since they almost never need to spend super meter to maintain their zoning, and most characters don't have metered answers to zoning. Even characters that can reliably use meter to get in can be blown off by burst or DA (RIP) in most cases, and the zoner doesn't suffer as much opportunity cost since they weren't going to use that resource offensively anyway. Nu is the classic example for me. It's demoralizing when she bursts, it's frustrating, infuriating even. And I know I have to be patient, but it's hard to be while you watch as the burst gradually comes back. At least before CP if Nu/Lambda bursted in round one you wouldn't have to deal with it again for a while (In my case, for the rest of the game because it's not like I won round two...). In both of these cases it feels like the small amounts meter build don't amount to anything substantial, in the long run it doesn't feel like there's a good strategy in these matchups as far as meters concerned.
On the flipside, in games with persistent meter I can cut my losses in round one and play for round two. Even if I don't necessarily have a meter lead I have enough to feel like I can run my game plan. This is something I love about UNI, It's doesn't feel as bad to get zoned out by Vatista or steamrolled by Byakuya if I can focus on building meter and try to make a comeback in round two. Personally I feel like it makes meter management more fun since building GRD is such a nuanced resource. But even ignoring this, it makes for an interesting dynamic from round to round. Even if my plan pays off I'll have to end the round with enough meter to run the same strategy in the final game. And even if it doesn't work out, I at least got to try something different instead of losing in a similar way in both rounds. To put it simply, It feels like I get to play, and that's not something most people say about these kinds of characters.
That said, Vat's still undisputed top-one In UNI so zoners gonna zone either way.
season 1 android 16 was and still is my favorite fast grappler. good lord that man had it all!
Most of these archetypes can be boiled down to functional aspects. Stuff like how they beat blocking, how/when they get advantage, damage vs health, movement, range.
The biggest outliers are joke, items/rng, puppet characters, mimic/steal characters, and game specific mechanic characters, though each character overlaps with the common archetypes.
SF5's Poison is probably the best example of a top-tier normal zoner, and I think part of that keeping you out isn't her only win condition. She's as dangerous up close as she is at range and can force you into a strike-throw situation very easily, so it may just be because she's not a pure normal zoner.
I think that's more so how most zoners are supposed to be played in more balanced games. You use the fact that zoning works well for you to force your opponent into mistakes by not zoning, and then pushing them back out from what ground they've gained and resetting the marathon for them.
@@tbc1880 Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think that zoners should be able to start an offense and have decent pressure tools, but in the case of Poison specifically I think her close-range pressure tools are just so strong that they elevate her up to top tier. You've got to fight through her long range buttons, allowing her to build meter to vacuum you into her plus frames. You're kind of screwed if you don't trade your V-Meter for her meter.
This is exactly why INJ2 Dr. Fate was so strong. He could destroy you at range but against characters that could get in on him he had great get off me moves to put you back at full screen plus the threat of the strike throw with Trait grab was so scary. When zoners are designed this way they're so fun to play and watch.
specifically it's the fact that you basically just can't use v-trigger due to the way her offense works. if you cut off your access to v-reversal her offense is so dangerous you often just lose on the spot
Great video, I love the concept! It’s something I think about all the time, especially when a new game comes out and I’m searching for a new character/team to play.
I would like to give my take on how I would split up Morrigan’s all encompassing projectile zoner. Ideally it would split into 3 separate categories. Honestly, they are conceptually similar enough to put in one category, but they have enough differences to warrant separation into at least two categories i.e. projectile keep away vs projectile control. They do mix a lot though…
- (Traditional) Zoner / Wall Huggers - Representatives: Morrigan, Peacock, Vatista, Glacius - These characters capitalize on their long range projectiles for the sole purpose of knocking back the opponent, or knocking them down to get away and create more space. They differentiate themselves as the most defensive zoners because they generally have high reward via damage / combos, or hard knockdowns / advantage to continue space control simply by hitting with their projectiles. They tend to have a good mix of different speed projectiles, and often have the highest speed projectiles relative to the rest of the cast (beams more often than not). Generally the more pure a zoner is, oddly enough, they tend to have at least one defensive option, in either an invincible reversal or the ability to teleport away. They often have poor health / stun thresholds when the game balances for such things. From a screen space perspective, they thrive at max distance, and suck ass in the mid and close range. They often have more trouble with mid range characters due to having at least one defensive option to combat close range characters.
- Neutral Skippers - Representatives: Dizzy, Venom, Litchi - These characters have projectiles and strong offense much like the Zoner or a Setplay character, but lack the high reward or lower risk that those archetypes have in trade for good offense in both (really all) distances. They often use their projectiles to either chip out a low health opponent due to low reward at longer distances, or simply use their projectiles to win neutral and allow themselves a “free” way to get in on the opponent. They benefit greatly on knockdowns where they can set up a safe mix via delayed projectiles, but are often left with horrible defense; having little or no invincible reversals, no meterless reversals at all, or having low health / low stun thresholds. Looking at it from a screen space perspective, they thrive in the mid range which allows them to enter close range on their terms, but are capable in long range when needed. They lack in both long and close range compared to those range’s archetype specialists and often need to change their playstyle to accommodate for those archetype matchups.
- Trap / Zone control - Representatives: Testament, Byakuya, Naoto (Persona), Kokonoe? - These characters tend to be more defensive than the Neutral Skippers, but more capable of close / mid range fighting with their buttons compared to the Zoner. Due to their control coming from traps / threats that linger on screen for a long period of time, they control a zone that the opponent must either avoid for its long duration, or go out of their way to make that zone safe again. The traps often have long duration compared to most other projectiles, but have a method to completely negate them outside of player to player interaction. They tend to be more stable as far as their own gameplan compared to Neutral Skippers. While most opponents have to think differently when facing a trap character, it often just means that they can choose to play a mini game where they can “unlock space” or “win safety back” in that zone by either spending some time or advantage to do so. Often, but not always, accompanied by resource management (That could be an archetype in and of itself), and again, lacking on defense in some way.
The main reason I bring this up though is because I tend to gravitate towards Neutral Skippers or Trap characters, and avoid the more traditional zoner even so much as to play a more close range / mid range focused archetype instead.
Can’t believe they chose anybody other than Honest Mids Michael as the icon for the mid dispenser. Tragic, really.
I usually like the big Zangief type grappler since they’re usually mechanically simple (if harder to do well with), so they’re nice as something to play on the side for some variety.
Given the number of moves and modifiers they added for SF6 for other characters, I'm hoping that Zangief finally has more than two moves. He desperately needs a good strike move to throw out there instead of banking exclusively on the SPD
Thanks for your time and knowledge
Always a fan of a projectile zoner that can also utilize set play. This is why Dizzy will forever be my favorite fighting game character.
So basically you're the devil right
*_"In a fighting game, you can never stop doing what your opponent hates."_*
you might enjoy killer instinct lol
@@000wolf Yeah, pretty much LOL
I love your flow.
you seamlessly go from one archtype to the next
After picking up a lot of fighting games I stared to realize that all the characters I gravitate towards have one thing in common, Some type of "Meter" Management (Nago, Chaos, Sin, Raven, Aegis, Android 21 {I don't know if Vaseraga and Percival count}).
You get to feel "smart" when you manage the meter correctly while simultaneously feel dreadful when doing poorly and be punished for it.
It gives visual confirmation to the player and opponent what your full scope of possibilities is. The real difficult part for that type of mechanic is making the resource cost "fair". I can't think of a good example where it is a point of contention but I'd think happy chaos on release is a good example and Zato to an extent. I don't think Zato is busted but an argument I have been hearing for characters with meter management is the recovery rate of said resource when lost. How much time do you give both players to interact in the game state where both people know that you are weaker without a resource? Alternatively are the costs of using the resource respectable for the amount of weight it has in neutral which is the vibe I get from Happy Chaos.
@@mirror2922 I dunno what kind of Happy you've been fighting but his resource costs in are not fair in any sense; he replenishes them so easily they might as well not exist most of the time
@@juniperrodley9843 that is exactly my point the balancing of the character then becomes about the resource drain usage rate and what they are using meter for.
I think the most important point with grapplers is that they are mostly knowledge checks on the opponent and at higher levels that becomes harder to come by (someone who doesn't know the matchup). So the winrate drops as does popularity.
And you don't think that's horrific? Grapplers have spent too long with such a poor design philosophy that makes them dysfunctional at higher levels. I don't care if you have to nrrf the power. They can have mobility. They can have fast moves. It's not hard or impossible.
If you can't do that, do not release your game.
@@gigizaderg9270 I honest to god think its fun to be a slow moving dude who inches their way in and then the opponent explodes.
It's why I always pick zangief in Street Fighter.
@@Thomazbr Okay but that archetype doesn't work at higher levels. You move so slow that your opponent can see what you're doing from a mile away. That's why Zangief is bad in SF5.
I'm saying FG devs should take these issues more seriously so grapplers (especially slow, large ones) aren't underpowered.
@@gigizaderg9270 Zangief is bad because they removed 1 key move he has and the system just plainly doesn't work for him. Zangief was actually getting pretty good in SF5, but the addition of V-Shift made things even worse for Gief. But meanwhile in SF4 Zangief was a perfectly fine and competitive character with someone like SnakeEyez placing high through out the entire game. Having Green Hands certainly helps
Why sf4 gief works is because he has the bare means to atleast participate in footsies and not get memed on completely.
Im not sure why some devs feel like grapplers should lack a single midrange punish or a forward dash.
Meanwhile at the fast grappler side of things its looney tunes, clark just hopping from fullscreen and delay armor pointing your neutral jump, abel doing stepkicks into albeit slow but meaty cmd grabs.
Feel like mid dispenser can sometimes become a blanket term that doesn't acknowledge some key characteristics about certain characters imo. Like, the archetype can make sense for characters like sol and nago who mostly wanna oppress (and dispense) but I think theres too much variance to rekka and stance characters for them to be considered in that category
There's enough examples of rekka characters like kof angel whose style of pressure is practically a choose your own adventure experience, and the idea of a character with different stances can be so broad that even someone like GG leo could technically be described as a stance character
I kinda think there’s “bully” type characters like Sol or Nago and then “counterhit” characters like most Rekka characters (Fei Long for example)
I sort of used to think this way, but a bunch of time I have seen some of these chars just either go towards dispensing mids or falling into the rushdown/mix up category.
For 3d fighters it might be different though
@@LordKnightfgc That's fair honestly. I might not be aware of too many characters in those categories that just wanna go in. But yeah for fighters like tekken I can think of a couple stance characters like lei who are just very weird lol
Damn, this vid was a super interesting discussion. Good shit LK.
Just to throw some of my thoughts no one asked for into the ring:
Stance characters: I know you just called them mid dispensers, but I think they deserve their own archetype. I think generally they end up being above average characters. I think true stance characters are essentially multiple characters. Yeah you have to learn multiple characters to play them, but the often have tools to deal with everything and learning to play them is mostly about learning to know what tool you'll need when. I think as a result, they tend to have an above average matchup spread across the game. Best examples are SFV Zeku and Aria from KI.
Defense characters (you mentioend these are the end): I think these characters wib condition often lies in their defense. I think these tend to be storing as they warp the game around them. +R Baiken parrying from block or 3S Q getting is biggest reward off of good parrying.
Trap Characters: I just feel like even those this archetype is rare, it's always strong whenever it shows up. I just think these characters' strength lies in the fact that they're usually taking away options from their opponent. They often sometimes feel like they're even able to checkmate you similar to some puppet characters, but I'd say their offense isn't as strong. Good examples are Cagliostro from GB, +R Testament, or UmvC3 Rocket Raccoon.
At their worst the S tier archetypes are just as bad as any other bad character, however at their best they make it a one player game, unlike the other archetypes which nearly always leave some room for the other player to interact.
That's generally the difference between A-tier and S-tier. A-tiers are honest, and you can predict how to react to the end of their combos to give yourself advantage in a game. S-tiers are dishonest and typically retain advantage after a combo or have a TOD that doesn't let you play for the whole match.
What you said about set play and projectile zoners being powerful is true. But I think that the throw invulnerability on wake up that a lot of games have now, or the weakening of normal throws in general (look at DBFZ) shows how powerful mid dispensers and fast grapplers can be.
So something else to mention about slow grapplers, is that anything done to nerf other archetypes also effects them. More defensive mechanics hurts them, anti set play mechanics hurt them etc. variable wake up vs a set play character and they make an option to beat both timings and cover their offence, but vs a grappler you miss your command grab and get punished
The resource character is one that didn't get mentioned either.
The one that kids access to a limited amount of an incredibly powerful thing, and exactly how good they are is almost directly tied to how loose or tight the game is with allowing them to have that resource
Happy chaos is a character with two separate resources that he has to manage, but he's designed in a way that he doesn't really have to worry about running out of either all that often so then he just becomes a really good version of a long range zoner because the resource mechanic isn't actually limiting him much.
Joker and Steve in smash are also good versions of this.
Whereas the gimmick character might be a weaker subclass of this, Phoenix wright building up his resources to activate a high power mode, or Yoshi in Sam Sho having to play a mini game to unlock the best move in the game
I feel like a resource character will usually fall into one of the other archetypes, like HC would be considered a projectile zoner and both Zato and Carl would be considered puppet characters. To further complicate things, some games like BlazBlue and Rushdown Revolt have multiple characters with their own character-specific resources, and it doesn't make sense to group half the cast under the same archetype just because they all have a unique resource.
I feel like the one situation where having a resource character archetype would be useful is specifically when it overlaps with the gimmick character archetype. A gimmick character is just a character that's built around achieving a particular non-standard win condition, and managing a resource could be that win condition. I feel like that's a better fit for Steve since his win condition is built around gathering materials for items instead of more standard win conditions like ledge trapping. It also fits other characters like Phoenix Wright's Turnabout Mode, Tarara's level-ups, and Velora's The Kraken (although Velora has other tools too that let her fit into other archetypes).
@@aruretheincomprehensible20 that's a really good breakdown and I'm inclined to agree with your assessment
I started playing Xrd Millia for a couple of months before Strive's release, and then I also chose Millia in that game. I started playing UNI and I chose Byakuya. I picked up GBVS and I chose Zeta and Cag. And when I tried BBCF, I chose Kokonoe
As you can see, I like me my setplay/oki characters xD
Just wanted to say that since you mentioned wanting to try kof, there's gonna be a big crossplay update for kof 15 sometime during 2023 (dunno when exactly). Would be really fun to watch you try the game if you decide to do it.
How would you categorize parry/defensive characters like Geese Howard, or Jubei from SamSho, or Hakumen, or Baiken? I feel like they deserve to be a category of their own. Generally the strength of this archetype is pretty high, too.
It also might be worth having a category for trap characters, though that's more uncommon, and you COULD just consider a lot of trap characters to be in the projectile zoner category.
i'v seen these characters called "Reversal" characters or the Reversal archetype. My definition based on my interpretation is as follows: Reversal characters are characterized by having powerful defensive options in the form of guard cancels, guardpoints, counters, raversals, etc, and they use them to force opponents to rethink the way they structure their offense, being that their biggest strenght. For example, you cannot pressure Baiken with the same strings you could use with any other character because she can attack during block stun (guard cancels). I also consider Anji in strive to be a reversal character because he force opponents to respect his guardpoints and kachoufuugetsu. If a character forces the opponents to think how to attack then is probably a reversal character, but that's just how i see it.
I had chars that are trap chars fall under projectile zoning, most of them use traps + long range normals.
Defense chars are good, def screwed up not including them but I mentioned in the end they are prob around A tier overall.
My Lord, please, we are starving. When is the next YT stream?
As always, thank you for this blessing.
Soon, I'm getting some stuff together 🙏🏾
I feel like I aged 10 years seeing The Backyard watermark when Millia popped up, that's a throwback
Set play, puppet characters and items
Fighting two things at once can be terrifying
It would’ve been nice to have Brawlers like big band, Ralf or recently Marissa. But another archetype would be multi-stance characters. You discussed my boy Johnathan Sfondi but like you said, he’s a mid dispensing rush down type, but I think the distinction to multi stance like my boys Gen, Zappa and Zeku would’ve been nice because even though they’re all very different in practice, fundamentally they’re like puppet/item toss characters, constantly changing the pace and options their opponent needs to look for
thought this was a super cool breakdown, wish you had more examples of each type of character.
I wonder what Garchomp from Pokken Tournament would be defined as. They have a decent command grab and some elements of rushdown but the biggest draw is they're better at using the game's built in RPS system, where some attacks beat strikes but lose to grabs.
The Horde
Is it me, or is there a lot of overlap with One-Shot characters using Greatswords? While they're all kind of slower than Makoto, they all seem to have very similar attributes like:
- huge range/space control with the weapon
- massive damage output when catch you
- highly momentum based
- sub-par defense
- big s-word
Character's like:
Nagoriyuki (GG Strive)
Kliff Undersn (GG)
Tusk (Killer Instinct)
Kagura Mutsuki(BB)
Nightmare (Soul Calibur)
Think more like Slayer, Azrael
i think aganos, raam, and mira are better fits fur that archetype. aganos wants to set up walls and hit you with shadow rocks fur massive unbreakable damage, mira and raam just fucking delete you if you get hit with their instinct active. tusk has high damage but a lot of where it comes from is his powerful damage ender and his beefy sword normals. his lockout damage is strong but he doesn't really have the same type of "one shot" gameplan in the context of KI's system, he has to RPS you after the hit more than the others.
Puppet characters for me will always be the most egregious. Because they always combine extremely stupid setplay with god neutral on TOP of the best blockstring offense. Like Millia hits you and runs a spooky mixup and then its over. Carl runs 3 mixups in a blockstring, and if he hits you once he unblockable loops you.
I want more puppet character... zato has to be coolest character I ever played with, I regret not playing previous gg games
You forgot defensive characters like Hakumen and Baiken in XRD.
You forgot one archetype: The Jack-of-all Trades character, the char that can do at least a bit of everything. And no, it's not a shoto, because shotos have a very specific template with their movesets. I'm talking about chars that have at least a bit of everything and there moves don't follow a certain mold. For example, Reptile from Mortal Kombat.
Remember when people thought Vlov, a projectile zoner that starts 'weak' but gets stronger when he loses, was gonna be bad in Melty because of shield? Turned out, he was amazing at dealing with shield AND they had to nerf shield anyway! And Japan STILL thinks this character is bad and inconsistent.
...no counter characters huh? Baiken, Hakumen, Asuka, Leifang, all my people ain't there huh. I see you LK
I'm Happy 2 of my mains got on the list. Makoto and ElizaDeath
CPEX Nu is an example of a really good projectile/traditional zoner
You do papa leo so dirty by making him the millia vortex stock footage guy. And that clip starts with an un-live-downable round start 5d. Thats tough
Unfortunately this clip is one of the cleanest garden loops I have, so it is usually my go to 😅
I feel like Yun from 3S represents two separate archetypes that aren't on the list, divekick characters and install characters, where while divekick characters can be described as rush down it's not really what Yun ends up doing (he mostly runs away due to the install part) and to me is a very distinct style of movement that isn't encapsulated by say ninja characters or other rushdown types due the ease of faking/baiting movement. Then on the install side of things it's the defining trait of the character for most people, wherein the character flip flops from regular/mediocre to super powerful and the matchup revolves around gaining or preventing the ability to enter the install state. Other than that seems like you captured most things!
Actually I guess the system mechanic one kind of covers install so I take that back
every time LK talks about bike key it makes me laugh
Now we just need a character that is a Puppet Setplay with Item Throw and Projectile Zoning.
Jigglypuff in melee is a joke character the devs added as an easter egg basically and shes top tier!
Should have mentioned AC+ Pot and CPEX Tager....They are the MENACE TO SOCIETY.
This was a genius video idea
I Always tend to play shotos or mid dispenser when i first pick up the game, then when i'm enough confident with game mechanics and stuff i tend to play setplay characters or normal zoners characters. I Always try puppet characters everytime 'cause i think they're the coolest, but It never clicks for me and generally struggle a lot.
By far i'd say that setplay characters are my favorite out of all archetypes tho
I want Leo Whitefang to hold me in his PTSD ridden loving arms
My favorite is when they mix the setplay character, with a zoner. Bb Rachel the best, dont @ me :D
17:50 fast grapplers also tend to not have any armor or defensive abilities like slow grapplers do.
Another thing characters that fall into more than one of these categories end up being very strong especially in modern games as they have many options to rotate through vs the more linear members of the cast.
Ex: pre nerf android 16. Leo strive
solid content concept & execution. 👍
don't you think the emphasis of this list is not just 'character' archetypes but 'mechanic' archetypes❔️
the difference is subtle, but a list of 'mechanics' highlights playstyle peaks 🗻 where a 'character' list notes the complete package 🗂 of characters.
do you see how this list might exaggerate mechanical extremes?
Funny that you put ggst faust for item throw characters considering he's considered one of the weakest character in strive
Roboky is an actual viable and competetive joke character as well
This is a good video and an interesting look at fighting game archetypes but feel that the projectile zoners is a bit too high up. Historically so were thay busted but the last real projectile zoner that was absurd was UMVC3 Morigan and that's more then 10 years ago.
I will say that i am not 100% sure that H.Chaos fits into the projectile zoner camp, yes he attacks you from full-screen but he feels more like a mid dispenser with infinite reach.
You clearly didn't see projectile-based Zoners in NRS/WB games. There are some super strong projectile Zoners in these games and it's going even to this day in MK11 and they are all go from solid to super strong. Jade, Shang Tsung, Mileena, RoboCop, Cetrion etc;, they are all powerful characters.
@@RoyArkon Good point, NRS games are something I am not well versed in.
When talking about 21 you said “near unblockable setup.” What do you mean by this? Does she have like high/low/left/right/throw all in one unseeable mix, or is it just an unseeable 50/50? Because calling something near unblockable would have to be more than a 50/50 and i dont remember crazy shit like that from 21
I have a vid of it, it is getting the yellow steal > DR > if they tech the DR you do the air command grab. Dunno about now but it led to 60-70% in s3/3.5
CAN we talk about the « restance » character ( they can « not » put u in the situation at the end of their combo for force u to standup and get a mix »
I said this on stream and I'll say it again
Neko can never be D-tier
Unless you move her up to SSSSSS Tier your opinion is invalid.
But assuming you did do that, the video was super great
Was really cool to see which chars you thought represented each archetype as well which archetypes you thought existed in general. Really got me thinking about which type of character X person is. 10/10 Move Neko up the list
Grappler players: "Fuck tier lists. I'll pick whatever tf I want".
Also, when it comes to archetypes I'd leave SNK mostly out of the ecuation since they tend to mix up the type of commands and moves. You can have chars with comand grabs and charge moves and fireballs. They don'y design characters based on this rules for the most part. Obviously there are exceptions.
I wonder what archetypes was missing. I see some people saying about the brawlers, and stance character, and really would like to know what more archetypes are missing and what they do if possible. If anyone could say it to, I'll appreciate a lot. Besides, I live the video, for me is the best video of those that try to talk about this subject. Cheers
With what you say about item drop the thing that come to my mind is cnero of melty blood is funny and i never think about it
Oh- I was curious what about characters that just charge a bar or some source to do something powerful or useful? or depends on a bar for those moves- u know, like Tsubaki in BB or Nazuna in Arcana heart, Perceival in GBvs, like that? ... but maybe is not something common, like counter/parry oriented characters... like Zeta from GBvs or Kasumi from KoF...
One of the games I played for the longest period of time was BB, so generally I don't think a character having a resource is an archetype - rather, what they do with that resource leans more into what type of character they are.
@@LordKnightfgc I see... well, then is a mechanic that accompanies the playstyle, right? that makes more sense ... btw thanks a lot for the answer ovo!
Nago has setplay from neutral ofc, he can setplay you with a single special!
So basically Seth in undernight is setplay but also mixup but also speedster at the same time
i think neco arc and strive Faust are the only "bad" item throwers.
I say "bad" because Faust is getting lots of significant buffs, and because of the fact he has a huge skill ceiling, this makes it so that pros can do absolutely crazy shit
Petition to make j2k plus on hit :)
How would you categories Xrd Jack'o. She has like 3 command grabs, and her house mechanics.
Item toss + semi puppet
My basic ass wants to play a mid dispenser or a shoto
Valid, own your stale bread and iceless water
Same. I always gravitate to a mid dispenser or shoto in pretty much any fighting game I play. I guess it doesn't help that Ryu was the first character I ever used in a fighting game back in the early 90s. Been hooked on the shoto playstyle ever since mainly because it's a very digestible playstyle and it allows me to go on auto-pilot when picking up a new fighting game.
Eventually, I'll branch out into the other archetypes once I feel comfortable with the game. But if I'm serious about winning, shotos and mid-dispensers all day long.
setplay characters are monsters in bracket because of how easy they are on your brain. A shoto type character has to play neutral for almost the full 99 seconds, as opposed to setplay characters who just knock them down and then pick from a list of 3 or 4 options to kill with. A shoto player ends up having to make a lot more real decisions on a tournament day where the setplay character needs to win neutral a lot less times.
Ofc depends on the char, but the biggest blessing of a set play char of an event is how chill it is once you get the hit for sure.
Degen set play example is like p4 Chie, everything leads into kd into spinning rims into 50/50. Millia is a demon but at least she usually can't confirm EVERYTHING into doom lol
@@LordKnightfgc I also like zoning over the course of a day in a tournament setting. You're just out there spamming special moves all day and hoping they don't get close lol. It's definitely taxing but I always feel good about my wins.
Jmcrofts is hella cute he better not show up at irl tourneys because I want to carry him around like a bowling ball you know, 3 finger claw style then roll him through the chairs of the crowd at a grand finals he doesn't really care about like sailor moon and then he has to bashfully excuse himself
I forget what my point was
But I bet jmcrofts would handle it like the champ he is
i think putting ryu as the "system" guy is kind of ironic since for the longest time in SFV he couldn't use the crush counter system since his HK launched.
I've always seen Millia as more of a rushdown and Testament as more of a setplay character.
@lordknight Where would you put Meter dump characters.... Those that can't extend if you don't spend?🤔
How tall is that couch behind LK? Holy shit!
I wonder how long it'll take for someone to say "archetypes are bs".
Item characters in S-tier. Lesssss go!!!!!
Coming a bit late, what do you think boxers archetypes like Slayer and Dudley fall into ? Slayer feels like a OS character for sure but he plays neutral quite differently i feel, highly defensive and playing around baiting the opponent to dare hit them.
Joke characters are D tier? But have you seen Lowain and his perfectly fair and honest SSA
Are recca characters like Fei Long or Yang examples of mid dispensers?
Is giovanna considered a mid dispenser?
Yes but she also has mix off of certain things
@@Donobro I see, thanks for answering
Very much so yes.
Arcsys archetypes are usually combinations of many anyway. Like jacko HC. And because throw is so good, everybody is kinda of a grappler (still to this day lmao)
Nice, this is a fun discussion topic. What do we think about "install" characters, like ABA or Adult Gohan?
The true hp melters
Install characters usually suck, in a team game they're less of a liability though because it's a 2.5 v 3 or whatever and you can use your team to support your weaker form. In solo games though I haven't seen a good one in a while. They usually ramp up from like a c tier to an A/S tier once they get going, so maybe a B tier?
Jamie in SF6 once he hits 4 drinks it's over
smh no summon (Nappa, Jack-O', Gargos) and unlock (Yoshitora Samurai Showdown, Susano'o BBCT) archetype 💀☠💀 🎃🍬
I bet he'd put them in high C and mid B respectively.
In which category could Alex from sf could be in? I don't think he's a slow or heavy grappler, but neither a one shot
Kind of a grappler. In SF there’s the term “hybrid grappler” for Alex, Abel, and Laura where their weaknesses aren’t as pronounced as with Zangief, but the actual reward on strike/throw is lower and less slanted towards throw.
do you consider "Footsie" characters to be valid? I do, Hydro has a fantastic video about archetypes where he describes what he consider to be footsie characters. Also, i wonder if what you call mid dispenser are footsie character, to me they are similar in how many mid pokes they have
So how about counter characters like Hakumen and Baiken
Akumz cant be a setplay character anymore, is just the greatest shoto of all Time 🤣❤️
What exactly makes a rushdown mixup character worse than a mids dispenser?
Is it pretty much just damage output?
Rush down characters have no range and need to force the opponent to do nothing for mixups while midrange characters have more range and can do their moves whenever they want
Rushdown mixup characters tend to have very unsafe options and will be full combo'd if you call it out correctly. Mid dispensers can typically run safe on block gapless pressure till they have meter to make the risky stuff more safe
@@IfWhatYes Ah, alright.
@@PopfulAdvantage what makes leo so good is that he's a mid dispenser that can run safe on block offense really easily and then he becomes a mixup character on kd or throw
Just out of curiosity where would yall put sf4 Abel? Fast grappler or slow grappler? I feel like there's an argument for either
Abel is a fast grappler I guess. He's definitely not slow, he can play all parts of the game well with step kick, roll, dash, wheel kick.
Grapplers low tier across all of fighting games, unlucky
Good analysis tho, LK. I think I'm gonna carry this forward with me as I learn new fighting games or continue to play current/older titles. I think having this sort of frame of reference will help general-purpose knowledge and give me something else to build a foundation on.
Potemkin was top tier in base accent core
Where do Xrd and Strive Jack-O' even fall in this?
Xrd one maybe is kind of a not-too-bad joke character I guess...
But I think it's wrong deeming any gimmicky character ad joke character, I don't play Joke characters I play gimmicks or system mechanics I guess lol
I'm surprised Stance character wasn't in the list
LK videos don't miss
Would like to see you play KOF one day
How would you classify armor characters? Like Vasaraga from gran blue
Unless the armor has fast recovery, armor is usually a bad gimmick because movement is better the higher you go up. I think the most go to example is sfv gief. He's got a punch in neutral that he can charge, and then a flex he can hold, or walk with, and he really gets walked all over if he tries to punish his way in with these because they're reactable neutral options. Tager is another example where....the armor has a very specific function in a game where you can rotate strong options, Azrael too.
Where is the runaway character? Like r+ bridget and Amane
18:56 what about +r Kyle?
Wouldn’t dizzy be more of a set play character
He said mid dispensers are fair that means ram is fair 😈
Is Hakumen from BlazBlue a One Shot?
Are floaty characters an archetype of their own?
Where is the “whole ass instrument” archetype?
Hey what archetype in this does may from ggst fall into?
mids dispenser
@@LordKnightfgc cool thanks, im pretty new to fighting games in general so im just trynna learn the lingo to stuff