Why We Love to Hate McLarens, Except the GOAT of Course (the F1) - The Carmudgeon Show - Ep. 43
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- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- It’s no secret that neither Jason nor Derek love contemporary McLarens, despite them being objectively quite good. In this episode, they discuss the reasons why they feel this way, and also how modern McLarens are like a variety of foods including mirepoix, Mexican food, and turkey soup. Incidentally the exact opposite of these reasons is why they are both so enthusiastic about the McLaren F1 and the upcoming T.50. Naturally, this content is preceded by and interlaced with requisite tangents about 911s, e-Golfs, and Mark I Volkswagens. Also of note is Derek mentioning not one but two rear-engined Porsches that he doesn’t like.
The Carmudgeon Show is a comedic, information-filled conversation with Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott, two car enthusiasts who are curmudgeonly beyond their years. Proving you don’t have to be old to be grumpy, they spend each episode talking about what’s wrong with various parts of the automotive universe. Despite their best efforts to keep it negative, they usually wind up laughing, happy, and extolling their love for cars. Which just makes them angrier and more bitter.
ISSIMI is an enthusiast-owned, full-service specialist offering sales, consignment, collection management, service, and consulting to discerning enthusiasts and collectors. Specializing in complex transactions that include international services for exceptional cars, ISSIMI’s San Francisco Bay Area and Europe-based teams of experts pride themselves on transparency and knowledge.
Jason Cammisa is an automotive journalist, social-media figure, and TV host with over 250 million views on UA-cam alone. Jason’s deeply technical understanding, made possible by a lifelong obsession with cars, allows him to fully digest what’s going on within an automobile - and then put it into simple terms for others to understand. Also, a Master’s Degree in Law trained him to be impossible to argue with.
Derek Tam-Scott still tries. He’s a young automotive expert with old-man taste in cars, and a Master’s Degree in Civil Engineering - which means he knows how to be civil to Jason. Or at least he tries. With a decade and a half’s experience buying, selling, driving and brokering classic and exotic cars, he’s experienced the world’s most iconic cars. And hated most of them.
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It's incredibly typical for volkswagen to find a way to make an ELECTRIC CAR leak oil lmao
32:00 Another reason McLaren stopped production of the F1 was because the Formula 1 team partnered with Mercedes for the engines in 1995 (Ron's decision). This was clearly a conflict of interest with BMW.
Gordon was pretty pissed about this because it also put a stop to some other road cars they had planned. He ultimately left Mclaren after doing some composites work for the SLR project. He talks about this on the Chris Harris podcast.
Kind of unrelated but I’ve also heard that he was pretty upset that Mercedes allowed AMG to release the SL55 with the same 5.4 supercharged V8 after all the work that went into the development of the SLR.
@@sarowanes2928 This makes sense. Because they came out at the same time, but the difference is chalk and cheese.
@@sarowanes2928 oo no
Glad that this is still going on! I love these discussions.
Jason's fauxhawk would fit perfectly in Derek's wavy comb-over.
Weird, but strangely accurate analysis.
If they touch heads they would match perfectly.
Balanced as all things should be
Jason needs to sing a song in German for the Ferdinand Piech episode.
@@AzathothsAlarmClock The 911 i think is one of the few things he wasn't involved. The 917 or the 907 on the other hand...
Does the Chicken Polka have a lyric?
Die Horst-Wessel-Lied? Too soon?
Jason and Derek new content?! Dropped what I was doing, shut the office door, I'm in a meeting now with my dudes!
this but unironically
Is that 911 in your profile pic yours Richard?
coincidentally, all of the late 90s to early 2000s BMWs act in similar way in terms of power delivery, which will maintain my fondness for the M5X motors.
First time I’ve ever heard Derek say, “I don’t know” I’m the only one freaking out right now?! He knows all!
He's annoying and womt shut up dude on right
Oh shit! You bet I dropped whatever I was listening to when I saw the notification.
+1
the video of the f1 from ISSIMI is a modern master piece of car UA-cam content
On the subject of revs, we should think of it like a musical instrument. A parlor piano with 66 keys will never invoke musical power like an 88 key full grand piano with the open hood being rocked by a concert pianist. I LOVE NA REVS
I wonder if a scale model of T50 will ever go on sale.
100% T.50 is my new ultra dream car. It’s going to be THE car to end all cars in this golden era of sports cars we are seeing come to an end as we all knew it to be.
43:08 in an interview when asked, GM said it was the other way around, that S50 was born out of the S70.
This podcast is great, thanks for keeping these up. If there are contracting shenanigans to make it happen, props to all the players for working it out.
You’re thinking of Smooth Operator by Sade.
The S70/2 F1 engine's heads are practically the same as the S50B30 "Euro" heads (not the B32). Those engines (the everywhere-but-North-America) do have good midrange for a "rev-happy" engine, the 3.2 Double-VANOS being a bit better than the Single-VANOS 3.0 (have owned both).
Best moment, Sandler reaction at 7:31 to “it’s just a car”
We need weekly Carmudgeon shows again. Please! There's no other car podcast that compares
Hyphen needs to drive a 675LT with a scoop
UA-cam automatic captions call this the "Car Magic" show. It is.
Hyphen makes a great point about why cars that make you work for it, are much more satisfying to drive I drive a 2012 mustang gt 6 sp with a live axle instead of a IRS mustang because I want to be reminded occasionally to pay attention to my driving. That is why when you get it right , it produces that fizzy sensation in your pants.
Speaking of brakes bursting into flames. 1985 Mazda RX-7. Stock motor with emissions delete, ignition upgrade, full Racing Beat exhaust, and suspension. Came to a stop and throught the car was on fire because of the volume of smoke pouring off of it. Brake pads melted out of it. I had to chip brake pad material out of the wheels.
Hawk pads went on after that.
Don't skimp on your brakes.
The redline Gordon Murray wanted was a target higher than the Light Car Company rocket single seater car that he designed.
The rocket can seat 2 people
Nice to see a new episode after so long
Making 3rd gear so long for the GT4 was the dumbest solution to CA 3rd gear drive-by sound regs. Just do what Aston did. Short gears, higher threashold for butterfly valve opening and then a fusebox in the boot so customers can pull the butterfly valve fuse so it stays open all the time
Top notch, much obliged for you time & effort.
On a side note Mr. Tiff Needell is a civil engineer.
Just add timestamps and this would be perfect
My day has been saved, another episode!
Good thing Canepa is a T.50 dealer 💸💸💸
Ok, let's all be honest here. Outside of price, number and availability, why are the new McLarens not as much like the F1. Because the F1 is not really a McLaren. It's actually the GMA T.1. Technically more like a GMA T.20 based on Gordon's naming scheme, but you get what I'm saying.
BMW F1 "technically speaking"
how does this young guy know all of this? he seems like the smartest guy ever
As a food professional and an auto enthusiast, this discussion was very fun and relatable
Jason Im incredibly impressed that you knew Manhattan Transfer! Thats musical depth of knowledge. Well done!
One of my all-time favorite acts, even back to the original Laurel Massé days!
The black keys have an operator song called “Little Black Submarines”
@38:46 I believe the car they're referring to is the LCC Rocket, another car Gordon Murray helped design, lol. (Also, a strong future collectible as they made them in similar numbers to the F1, but they currently cost in and around $100,000, and as mentioned before it was part designed by Gordon Murray)
You guys should do a list of time stamps.
I’ve always had this analogy. The F1 is 2001: A Space Odyssey . And the The Bugatti Chiron/Veyron are more like Interstellar. Well built but not ground breaking even from their Director.
Bugatti's offerings are more like Ridley Scott's "Blade Runner," which unlike the unfathomable F1 (the "2001" of cars), has an actual story people can understand.
27:38 - this is why I can't watch your show when my wife is on a Zoom call for work in the same room. You guys started laughing about soup and I couldn't stop laughing.
Can you guys PLEASE release these podcasts on the podcast feeds!!! The last one took 9 days after hitting UA-cam to make it into my podcast feed.
+1. .. Ding, ding, ding we have a winner! .. Winner, Derek Tam-Scott .. Jim Croce, Singer/Song Writer .. "Operator" August 1972.
Hi Jason, regarding your comments on the Roma. From what I have seen (Robert Mitchell, driving multiple Ferraris on the Ring) it seems that Ferraris are very alignment/setup dependent, and that the alignment can totally change their limit handling behaviour. For example his 488 Pista felt "darty" (lots of toe out) but had terminal limit understeer and then if you got on the gas, snap oversteer. After adjusting the alignment several times it was dialed in to be completely neutral, more predictable and far more stable. Have you seen any of his videos on the topic, or believe this same setup problem could be what you have experienced in modern Ferraris?
Heya. I haven't seen his content - but I'm not that surprised. That sounds just like the prototype 488 Pista I drove - it was difficult, to say the least. Alignment changes can really transform a car, but I have to evaluate them all as they've given to me (i.e. as they come from the factory.) I'd be making a lot of changes to that Roma. There's a fine line between "lively" and "totaled."
You guys made spring break a lot better
had a bunch of roadtrips recently and ran through the entire 42 episodes in the last month. Nice to have some new content!
(at around 30 minutes): There's a great episode of The Sopranos that talks to this. The "gang" goes to Italy and asks for Italian food. What they get is not "flour, water, tomatoes, basil, and cheese", and they complain. I think the problem is that American/New Yorker sense of what Italian food is a small fraction of what Italian food consists of.
Ah, the Aussie 3.6 V6. The first version was flat (it could actually rev) compared to the lazy Buick V6 it replaced so the last version was well sorted in the end. Put it in a Miata or something lighter & it's like a baby F1.
Johnny and Jason together was magic tho, made me look forward to head to head :)
Of course you shouldn't hate the f1 this car was a revolution for supercars,and it was a hypercar before hypercar was a thing
The best, started listening in 2022 and now listening to all the show's from the start, can't wait for 2023
Hello Operator by White Stripes 😂
I don't think the steering feel in the F1 is better than an Elise. Even Gordon Murray said that whilst it is very good it's one of the things he wasn't able to get perfect with the F1.
The F1 has more compromises than people think, Gordon Murray doesn't say it, because he wants to sell his product, but it's clear that he wanted a smaller engine than the 6.1 liter in the F1. He had no choice for an engine other than BMW, and I'm sure he's thankful of the product he got, but the fact that his current project has a 4 liter explains it all. It produces decent torque at 2000 rpm. 71% of it, but it won't feel anything like the F1. Wether that's a good thing or not, I don't know.
The reason the F1's engine is so torquey is not due to fancy tricks and technology, the stroke is longer than the bore. They started with the classic 86 mm x 86 mm piston size and bored it a tiny smidge to 87 mm bore. Which is even more impressive considering how high it revs .
He did a podcast with Chris Harris and they talked about a lot of the compromises they had to make with the F1, like the bmw engine.
Gordon Murray talks about the compromises in the F1 with Harry Metcalfe (Harry's Garage), Chris Harris and others, in great detail. It's BMW engine wasn't ideally what Gordon wanted, but it doesn't bug him the way other imperfections regarding the F1 do.
Tiff is awesome!
My all time favorite car covered by these talented guys. Love it.
This was awesome - as a McLaren fanatic, me loves this. The Ferdinand Piech episode needs to happen pronto, mi amigos!
I believe 997 awd version (include turbo) can pull hand break to 1 click,and it becomes rwd(I think 996 too,but I'm not sure)
Colin Chapman got it right, Mazda with the Miata do so for so long now, Murray with F1 and now T50 did so.
50:30 "I hadn't gotten to the brakes yet." This made me laugh.
968 owner here ...thought that engine sounded mean. Much better than a Boxster imo.
My dad and I talk about cars like this. These guys are kindred spirits. Their passion for cars really shines through.
I really respect Jason’s perspective on what’s good, what isn’t.
Type 1 is 1939 which is my favorite part of it. They basically sold a 30s Ford throughout the Cold War and it worked for most people around the world
Jason makes a good point around 26:00. I bet if McLaren made a “classica” model today that was 3 pedal manual, naturally aspirated, with classic styling queues…it would sell well. Sell it to the rich guys who like driving not flexing. Or pitch it as a flex: Sure you can afford this…but can you drive it?
Best moment of the day!
So talking about steering feedback that's good for no reason, this blew my mind. The on-center steering feel in a 1st-gen Nissan Xterra is better than an NC Miata. The NC was the last hydraulic rack car - the Xterra is recirculating ball. Yet, you feel everything through the wheel in the Xterra, which is not only entertaining, but really useful while picking your way through terrain. It's the last place in the world I expected to find a talkative steering wheel, but even on 33-inch M/Ts, there it is.
With that said, the best steering I ever felt was on a 1992 Toyota Paseo. WAY better than the Miata, and also better than the manual racks on Hondas at the time (which were very good too, because manual). The Paseo steering just told you everything, all the time, with perfect weight. Great little motor, too.
It's back agaaaainnn
I’m just surprised that Derek didn’t see the F1 vs Veyron video from top gear
To the food analogy - that there is a fixed and small number of base ingredients - all great cuisine is born out of poverty and hardship - that rule transcends geography pretty much.
The Porsche 928 was a clean sheet design.
One of the beautiful things about naturally aspirated engines is the amity to understand rim like the sound barrier. 6 to 7 is mach 1 7 to 8 is mach 2 8 to 9 is mach 3 9 to 10 is mach 4 anything past 10 is mach 5 .
Okay but you guys have to do one about Amati, and all of the other defunct Mazda brands. I feel like no one talks about it/knows anything besides the few articles about it
An actual proper car show with Hyphen and budget Adam Sandler would be amazing. In all seriouness though Jason understands that to make a review interesting you need an angle or story behind it to give it a bit of flavour, and also bit of theatrics, kind of like what Clarkson used to do with Top Gear. That juxtaposed with DTS and his more serious kind of personality would be gold.
"Are you gonna drive cross country in an MGB?"
Well let's be fair, driving across country in good old blighty is a pretty trivial affair, so the MGB (or even the MGA) is perfectly fine for that ;)
Jason "I don't like modern mclarens"
Also Jason, spends the next 30 minutes explaining why modern mclarens are great
The 12c went from soulless to gorgeous
For someone who complains about how people pronounce Porsche your pronounciation of Dacia leaves something to be desired.
Nice Jim Croce reference! What an amazing sell to this episode
hey hey! Welcome back! :P
What a great other episode guys! You are wonderful as always 🤘 I really appreciated how quick you also uploaded the podcast on Apple podcast 🏎 thanks you guys rule!
Lol Jason, when you said the Dacia comes with windows I thought you meant Windows, googled it, couldn't find any mention of an operating system 😅
Tha sound of the video is a bit low would you like up the gain on the next episode
I needed this. My day was not off the a good start.
"The truly great cars of the past, present and certainly of the future, are the result of single man (person)." Reeves Callaway.
It is very much 2 S50B32's. Well between B30 and B32 in tech. Ah yeah, Gordon Murray does not listen to radio is my favourite line from maybe the best ever automotive clip from Top Gear. Ever.
959 is never going to impress because it was an advanced technological achievement at the time and paved the way for the turbocharged AWD performance of the future we have now. If you go back and watch a Laserdisc movie it probably isn't going to wow you or look great compared to a 4K UHD disc. But people still buy vinyl records which the 959 is not. The 959 is basically just a concept car you could actually buy and is the start point of what became the 993, 996, and 997 Turbos.
We back boys!
Issumi.....F50 next 🙋🏿♂️
I think you were talking about "Smooth Operator", Carlos Sainz Jnr.'s favorite song :D
6:30 to skip the preamble
Smooth Operator - Sade. :D
I don't know if this the right medium for questions.... but
1- How much more technology will we add to cars?
2- What revolutionary car tech you expect to become mainstream in 5 years?
3- What is your opinion on "sealed for life" fluids in diffs & transmissions etc?
4- What is your opinion on CVTs?
I think Derek is thinking of Operator by Midnight Star from the 80’s.
Regarding cooking analogies. Food industry as been arround since the beguining of human civilization. Frankly it astonishes me that not that many people realize this and its implications. Yes french cuisine is miraux pois and 5 sauces. Asian cuisin is rice with something. Mediterranen is tomato and olives. And that is no bad thing. Core ingriedients imply rationalization. Of raw matirial usage energy expenditure etc. Bespoke may be amazing. .... but then make 1 not 100 and put the dam thing in a museum. Otherwise just give us Porsches to take to the race track
I think you two are defining steering communication as bump steer . BMW electric rack in 2014 M5 does not seem have any bump steer or am I imaging it ?
They record this one, but can’t imagine their text threads, they should publish that at some point, I bet they are hilarious and full of knowledge!
You guys are OFF THE RECTOR
Oh man, Carmudgeon show before sleeping, this is a much better ending of my day than I had imagined!
On the T50, I wonder if Gordon Murray over specced it regarding the driveline. Getting that fast a throttle response, with that big and powerful an engine, in that light chassis, with manual gearbox?? Hyphen just said you have to be careful with the F1 torque and response, the T50 just has more of everything, how will it be drivable when the point is to keep it unrestrained and analogue?
You should check out the videos where Gordon Murray talks at length and addresses the issue you raised. I can recommend Harry's Garage for this. Off the top of my head, the 75% (or some similar percentage) of torque is delivered close to 3000rpm so it's pretty driveable should you decide to pop over to the nearby shop for milk.
@@subarnosinha8042 Yes, I am not concerned by the driveablity that it would be peaky. I am concerned that it has so much torque everywhere, and has such good response of the engine, that the driver probably has to be careful at all times, unless its very limited electronically. But I just checked and its only a 3,9l engine, so I guess even with crazy response, the torque and power is lower than I expected. So maybe its not as wild as I imagined.
Gearbox on the 911 turbo was a 4 speed because they didn't have a 5 speed strong enough to handle the torque, most probably.
I can't believe 5th gear fired Tiff...he was the best part of the show...him and Sabine :(
What I'd love to see is a show with Tiff and Randy together...maybe with you guys :D
The Problem with modern cars is they are so good in every way and so powerfull, that you‘re just driving a lot faster to get the same thrill. It is just a shift of velocity to get the same experience and this makes it just more dangerous. Take a small, light and decent powered car and have the same fun, just a few mph lower.
Are you going to drive cross country in an MGB? NOooo LOL!!! Thank you for the laugh.
“Telephone Line” by ELO. How could the old guy not know that song?
I'm glad you guys have justified my gut feeling that the GT3RS is better than the GT2RS (Because Turbo).