As a retired measurement engineer with 42 years of experience I fully agree with this video. You have just scratched the surface. But the real take home on this subject is if the measurement is “excellent” then the likely hood of you hearing that difference is minimal given all the other compromises in a real word system. If there is a difference heard then it will be associated with a difference not covered by that particular measurement. Audio reproduction is complex and one must look at perhaps 20-50 different specific measurements to make a valid comparison. Keep up the excellent work.
Can you recommend me a budget rig to measure a doze of earphones I own? I know my ears are the best judge but I was looking at Gras rigs which are way beyond my budget. Thanks
Good think you retired, I guess. Music is not nearly as complex as you make it out to be. It's just a bunch of sine waves on top of each other that's it. You clearly don't know left from rigth and thank god you are not working any longer, because every halfwit engineer is a detriment
@@samk.9972 your ears are the worst judge since they are connected to you brain which is also a shit judge. Once you embrace that you embrace that you will come to enjoy your biases and not care as much.
You have this ease of putting complex and specialized subjects in a language that the layman enthusiast or semi expert can understand. I may have gotten about 60% of what you were talking about but I completely got the point of what you were trying to demonstrate. Huge takeaway for me and major props to you 👊🏻
This has got to be one of the most important videos about product reviews (in general) EVER! One always has to have discernment in product reviews, regardless of who reviewed it and HOW the product was reviewed! Good job @GoldenSound! This is gold indeed! I’m gonna share this to all my friends!
I'm on board with the intent of this video. In any engineering test you document the procedures and the findings. That way someone who wants to repeat the test can do so and they should then arrive at the same result. Where there are differences are almost always attributed to the test procedure itself and not product variation. This is standard stuff in every field. Not just audio components. Anyone who takes issue with your encouragement for that are simply doing so out of spite and letting their emotions override logic. So, yes, document the procedures and publish the results. Simple. I also agree that often too much importance is placed on a single value metric (such as SINAD) and the other parts of the whole are tossed by the wayside. However, you lost me at 27:30 with the statement that "two devices with the same SINAD levels can sound very different". While I agree this is certainly possible, you provided a generic statement with no footing. You spent the better part of 25 minutes making many valid points with examples. And then you dropped that statement as if it were an afterthought. I wish you had taken steps to provide an example of when you have seen this and then provide reasons why that was the cause (i.e., frequency response, different voltage levels needed to reach this SINAD match, etc). This, to me, is much more helpful in providing rationale for a) why measurements can be misleading and also b) how proper measurements can help us learn *why* Product A sounds different than Product B. In my opinion, that should be the goal of a reviewer using data to help supplement their review. I don't believe it serves much purpose to say "here is data, and by the way, this is what I heard" without at least attempting to reconcile those two things. At any rate, I hope you understand where I'm coming from and don't take this personally. Overall, I'm in complete agreement. I just think this video would have benefited the community if you had taken the extra step to explain your ending statement (or you had simply left that out). Maybe that's a topic for a later video... Take care, Erin
I couldn't agree more. Where are the verified double blind ABX tests to allow us to not have to just take your word on this? Who wouldn't want to watch the ASR gremlins have an absolute melt down? Without those tests, the measurement gremlins remain in the right.
Thanks for great work, am glad you’re doing what you do, as some people on youtube etc seem to believe their test regime plus superficial listening test constitutes a complete metric for judgement on the quality of reproduction of recorded music, and as such replaces a longterm listening test.
Take your bones for a proper blind test. See if they can tell a difference between a capable 500 dollar DS DAC or a 50000 dollar DS DAC. Talk is cheap. Do it.
@@AbsoluteFidelity done one the ones i couldn't tell apart were a smsl su-8, klipsch heritage and a toneboard. A littledot, topping and a rotel were easy to tell apart honestly. All good dacs littledot excluded but they sound different to each other.
@@DueM any measurements of the littledot, topping and rotel? Measurements will tell if there are any ausible differences. And Im not talking about SINAD either, other parts of the measurement can and would indicate audible differences.
@@AbsoluteFidelity i left you a reply earlier hopefully you got it. it was left for everyone but it got deleted. so i guess there's no reason for me to post anything else here if that's gonna be censored. wow. that's how this channel wants to carry it.
An excellent video. GoldenSound you really communicated this very well. And I love the sound of your voice/accent/grammar. The very best of ye old British. Cool. Excellent diction and pace. Very easy to listen to. Superb explanations, very well presented. Thank you.
Excellent explanation. Now I finally understand why many of ASR's top DACs, preamps and Amps that I have blindly purchased where easily surpassed on listening tests by others that measured worse. The X26 pro mentioned by you is one of the betters that I have. Easily on par with my Chord TT2. The TT2 do some things slightly better and some slightly worse. Question: it is the upsampling built into Roon good enough to avoid purchasing an M-Scaler or the Chord's algorihm is better?
The problem I have run into is that the gear the measures well doesn’t sound great and the gear that sounds great doesn’t always measure well. Thd and Sinad in my experience typically have little correlation if the amp will sound well (subjectively). So I’m struggling to use objective data when subjectively my Brain is telling me otherwise. Perhaps I enjoy distortion perhaps we cannot measure that which I enjoy or perhaps the measurements are just wrong or inconsistent as you state.
It also have to do with loading of your speaker because of the complexity of crossover and drivers. Those two are just measuring noise nothing else. Like Benchmark AHB2, it is the best in ASR. But you see some user returning this product. It is also well measure in Stereophile. You have to listen to amp with the speaker it drive in subjective way. No way to tell whether the product is worth buying just looking at graphs. I mean lots of people can swore by 300B including me.
I saw your reply post that you made under the new account on ASR, and sure enough, they removed it. What kind of place is ASR, where someone isn't even allowed to appropriately respond to accusations against them? Personally, this is a fantastic and informative video. Please keep up your work!
I had my account banned after I said I could easily discern the SQ of each of my DACs (all ASR-SOTA level). Even after I followed their null test requirement and the test result 100% supported my judgement they started to ask for further testing seeking a way to disqualify my listening tests. They don't accept that measurements are always incomplete by nature and that listening to the devices should always be the deciding factor.
Excellent. It is so nice to see something informative like this put up. I think many consumers jump to conclusions regarding measurements without knowing the full picture. I hope this will change some minds.
Really interesting, educational and helpful, thanks so much for this thorough walk through, it’s clear that you’ve invested many hours in putting this together!
Greatwork, it shows that, as almost everything in life, one can not reduce things to a hand full of numbers. This is also applicable to cars for example.
This is excellent, but with one complaint and a few comments. My complaint is that near the end around 27:40 you claim that two DACs with very high Sinad levels can sound very different. No, they can't. That tells me that the listening comparison was flawed. If the response of an audio device is flat within, say, 1/4 dB across the full range, and the sum of all artifacts is 90+ dB below the music, then the device is considered to be audibly transparent. Any coloration that is added can be measured, but nobody will ever hear it. So by definition all transparent devices sound alike. This then leads to my comment: Again, this video is excellent, and it's valuable to anyone who truly cares about audio. But I fear the sensationalist headline will give ammunition to the Luddite crowd who dismiss measurements and believe "just listen" is superior. Measuring beats listening every day of the week for many reasons. Though, as you point out, measurements can be skewed. (And some vendors just lie and make stuff up. I've seen that with acoustic treatment products.) So it's important for people to understand that once a device is clean enough to be audibly transparent, anything better doesn't matter. Nobody can hear the difference between distortion at 0.003 and 0.006 percent. And the real point is that it's not worth paying ten times more for something that measures better but doesn't actually sound better.
If the headphone amplifiers' output impedance are different, then they can sound different for some headphones (like sennheiser 600 series)? Do Rebel and Drop THX even have same flat frequency response?
@@deafno Yes, this is true. But a headphone's output impedance should be as close to zero ohms as possible, just like a loudspeaker output. A 30 ohm speaker output impedance will sound different too!
There is one situation where having specs better than what is audible can be useful, but it applies more to recording studios than to hi-fi reproduction at the end of the chain of audio devices. This is from my Audio Expert book: Even if a device is audibly transparent, that doesn't mean it's "good enough," and so recording engineers and consumers won't benefit from even higher performance. Audio typically passes through *many* devices in its long journey from the studio microphones to your loudspeakers, and what we ultimately hear is the sum of degradation from all of the devices combined. This means not just distortion and noise, but also frequency response errors. When audio passes through five devices in a row that each have a modest 1 dB loss at 20 Hz, the net response is a 5 dB reduction at 20 Hz.
I finally got a THX AAA 789 months after it started selling out. Measurement geeks were drooling over it. Several months later I resold it. It was clean but sterile to my ears. That taught me not to give in to the measurement ONLY drones.
@@blueversace4447 Adding EQ is good to shape your listening curve. That is alway a phase issue with EQ. That why many audiophile do not wanna touch EQ. It is not get a flat respond and you are done.
As with nearly all measurements, they are far better equipped to inform us about possible flaws than to educate us on sound, as experienced by the listener.
We needed this video so much. This is part of why I never really paid attention to measurements. I give more credit to subjective feedback, especially when I could validate their impression by testing a piece of equipment myself. It worked for me and I am happy with what I have.
(trying to post this comment now for the 4th time, youtube is having issues or this channel is filtering comments .... anyway ... ) Excellent -- you get the GOLD medal for this legwork, GOLDENSOUND. Thanks! BTW ... in your opening, you forgot to mention the other heavyweight, longtime-running OBJECTIVIST forum, hygrogenaudio. They do some in-house measurements but it is mostly a discussion forum of think-tanks. BTW2 ... If Amir is reading this comment, then I highly encourage him to make a response video as he does with PS Audio.
I'll stick with my ears and brain measuring how much pleasure i get from any bit of kit. Topping A90 measures incredibly well, i auditioned it and hated it bigtime. Bright, harsh, cold, not a great soundstage and just not my cup of tea. I auditioned the Benchmark HPA4, what a fabulous amp, another THX amp that measures extremely well but completely different to the Topping. Sounded next level with my planars, made them sound like electrostats however, a bit too neutral for my HD800. In the end i settled for a Violectric V550 Pro, works really well for both cans and while i have no idea how that measures i really loved the sound. I'm very glad i take little notice of measurements. 👍
Interesting experience, I've used an A90 and couldn't possibly describe it any way you mentioned. To me it just sounds 100% uncolored. No harshness, definitely not bright at all (it's totally flat, after all), and cold... Again. it's extremely neutral. I think you might just have a preference for warmth, AKA boosted high-bass/lower mids. To me it sounded 100% identical to the HPA4 I demoed. Not a lick of difference between the two. But then again, I also level-matched both with an SPL meter, swapped between them within 0.5 seconds using a switcher, and did it completely blind. If you don't take those into account, your sense of expectation WILL affect how you hear. It is 100% unavoidable. That's why you can't really trust your ears for anything but preference, UNLESS you eliminate every single factor that can influence your sense of hearing.
In Toppings defense, you were using an absolute wonkfest of a headphone with it. If the HD800 doesn't sound wonky as hell, there's an issue in your chain :D
@@KaneAmaroq You don't have a clue what i prefer, and it's a good thing we all hear things differently otherwise life would be extremely dull and annoying to say the least.
@@Gamez4eveR There are zero problems in my chain, my cans are doing great thanks. This is the problem with opinions, if you express one that is contrary to a fanboy of a particular product they will tell you that you're wrong or you have a problem. Thank god we all think differently.
@@spanmanuk You described a preference for warmth, I'm sorry you're so offended by others recognizing it. Also ignored the fact that it was probably just in your head, lol.
Fantastic video. An excellent challenge to those in both the objectivist and subjective camps that not everything is black and white. Audio, like life, is nuanced and open to interpretation.
Making a buying choice based on ASR's SINAD ranking chart is folly. But we're living in an era when people are more concerned about ease (in buying audio gear) and being "better" than others, instead of relying on one's own ears to tell oneself what one likes.
It’s unrealistic to expect people to shoulder the costs required for such testing. Relying on one’s ears is not necessarily a simple concept when there is cost involved in procuring or encountering the equipment necessary to experiment, along with the time and effort to even work through the process once it’s been enabled. Also, people can imagine they’re better than others at all different levels of a situation like this (ofc for differing reasons), so I won’t address that further.
Thank you Cameron. I would also add that while competently undertaken measurements provide a strong foundation and are crucial for understanding the technical aspects of audio equipment, they can only partially predict the subjective listening experience - some argue within a range of 50 - 70% accuracy. Therefore, while measurements are highly valuable, listening tests remain essential to gain the true picture of sonic performance.
This was an excellent video, which also partially debunks some of the arguments from the “you can’t hear a difference because they measure the same” brigade. The fallacy here being failing to understand the limitations of any measurement methodology. I did like how you pronounced Shiit. (I’m sure they make quality equipment, however.)
I did make a response to this. It was of course deleted almost immediately. However if anyone wishes to read it there is an archive.org copy of the page here: web.archive.org/web/20220421140602/www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/why-you-cant-trust-audio-measurements-by-goldensound.33222/page-4
@@GoldenSound I've been following all the story, and you didn't chicken out as they say. Amir was the first one to "reboot" the challenge as he said. Then you stop participating and the overall idea was that you chicken out when in reality you were banned. Of course your reply would not be visible for some time because not only you overcome the rules of the forum by posting in a different nickname (most forum have rules that prevent overcoming ban by creating a new user) but because you "opened the Pandora box" and that may result in further scrutiny by third parties and assumptions when something is rated higher than others. Specially when in the end of each review he keeps asking for more Patreon donations. I'm not saying his work should be free but someone as him could easily get a job at any company or even in the standards industry that would pay his bills, if the accolades he say to have are true, of course. I'm not a member of his forum, and I don't pretend to because I have a issue with "I'm always right" type of mentality and deflection of mistakes, combined with blind following. I remember perfectly Amir being supportive of MQA, that you debunked. For someone who is and claims to be objectivist and measurements driven person, I found it strange he doesn't first tried to analyse such codec claims before stating his position, specially when the licence agreement had come to light and the "Management Rights" were clearly the main focus of the Codec itself, or the big 3 audio publishers who control 75% of the market would not had jumped ship without thinking twice. We know perfectly well that they would not do it if the only advantageous setting was for the consumer. It was disadvantageous for the consumer and highly profitable for their coffers.
I'm pretty sure Amir knows about all these things lol. That's why he uses standardized settings for testing. The only difference is Amir doesn't believe that amps or DACs sound different.
He uses standardized settings on his measurements you dingus.. His measurements are the most real world based. The stuff he measures sound as he describes them. I bought most of my setup based on his suggestions and I can tell that you can spend 10s of thousands more, I have, and have the same or worse results.
Ha ha ! well done Sir! thanks for your insight information on test settings. In engineering we have a say 'What is the load?' and you can't arguing with the science, that's you can't hear below -120db.
That's why I always believe controlled listening test. For example if comparing two streamer transports. You need a friend to hook up the units and there is a cover over your equipment rack so you don't know which one is hooked up. In your room with your equipment with your music. Let your ears, brain & heart to choose the one that you like the most. It's that simple.
Also make sure you're able to level-match the two, even a 0.5 dB difference in volume will make you prefer the louder source, because it'll sound more 'clear and impactful' to you.
That's how we ended up with Delta Sigma/high oversampling DACs ruling the roost when a TDA1543 or similar type DAC may sound better as the noise is pushed out of band with high sampling types.
In real world, high sampling rate reduce floor noise. Your filter can be implemented much higher than audible frequency. With DSD 512 or 758kPCM, you can throw the filter away. This is the chip itself. All the components surround the chipset contributed more of the overall performance.
You're very honest, i love this video . Just shows you how certain sites can cook the numbers. Using a SINAD value at 1KHZ is really poor, especially not showing the full console to show how the AP is configured, kudos to you sir for your honesty!
Very informative! Thanks a lot, that helps me as a consumer to unterstand whats going on. And a big take away for me: know your reviewer and the conditions of testing and how that translate to your situation.
I really enjoyed this video. The question I'm usually left asking upon visiting ASR is "Yes, OK, but did you LISTEN to it? How did it SOUND?" They seem to value 1) measurements, 2) loudness, 3) looks/form factor/aesthetics, and somewhere--way down the list--how it actually sounds.
ua-cam.com/video/zrpUDuUtxPM/v-deo.html Because even Floyd Toole agrees, subjective tests in the way that all reviewers do it are USELESS 7:18 is where he exactly says it. Entire thing is worth a watch though
Nice! I appreciate the look behind the measurements. I do think you can trust folks that are genuinely consistent to have 'useful' measurements, but I do agree that there should be some careful subjective insight to help you understand the full picture.
A lot of speculations. How can you put your feet into the device designer's shoes and claim that they 'intended' to choose a default output level that measures better? Without proof, that's pretty far-fetched, isn't it? The inter-sample peak is also a poor example. Okay, some DACs by default has a -3dB digital attenuation, does it stop anyone from setting it back to 0dBFS, or does it stop other DACs from having a same 3dB digital attenuation? Some DAC chips have more headroom in their internal data path than the others. The DAC manufacturers are limited to what the chip vendors provide, and sometimes had to come up with compromises such as the above. I like your free measurement reports, and I still trust them. Hopefully there is no free personal agenda in those numbers and charts.
We are quite aware of what you point out. I always consider results as "ballpark" and useful proxies for real world results all things considered. There is no "philosopher's stone" inside the test rigs. But they do provide very useful info. Way better than the waffle that some people put out. Any academically serious analysis should ideally include a "tech file" defining the test procedure and configurations used. We are proceeding incrementally, measuring becomes more useful as accepted practice evolves for the better.
A big part of the reason I just ordered a Holo Spring 3 KTE was because you said the jitter was extremely low via USB and an external DDC wasn’t necessary. I’ve been looking to reduce my digital front end from two boxes to one. Uh oh...we’ll see.
@First Last Wow. Maybe I should keep mine? I keep hearing that at some point in your signal chain, get the signal to go through a glass optical cable to eliminate any kind of emi or rfi. I wonder if anyone else has experience with this versus a dedicated DDC that never goes optical.
I bought a new ampabout a month ago. I noticed that this manufacture's specs are usually very conservative and the amps usually perform better in their measurements. I wondered why at the time. And thought maybe they do that to not get locked into a design just to chase a spec. No EE, but I think I see how it could give them freedom to better balanced design tradeoffs. I had no idea that measurements choices themselves could be so subjective.
Keep in mind, measurements are the ONLY way audio consumers have to decide upon gear - few stores, few demo opportunities. Unfortunate but the reality.
i love these videos. this comes at a time where I'm returning an incredible good measuring amp because it sounds flat and compressed. meanwhile, even if the measurements are done well, one of the guys from audio precision himself talks about why the methods we use are insufficient in the first place ua-cam.com/video/J6d14cTiCjI/v-deo.html
I looks like you ASR and others are using the same holy grail system of measurements in ASR'S case is those final results that matters only in 50 years of trying equipment with similar specs and twikes that made no measurable difference there is still a lot to learn especially stereo imaging even the simplest piece of music is a constantly changing complex tonal pattern
Very well organized, I enjoyed it a lot and it highlighted a lot of the parameters that can affect the measurement outcomes of a device. One thing I'd like to contend about (or would like a more detailed explaination of) is if the Rebel's "warmth" could be indicated by any of the measurements you have made. You pointed out in 21:14 that its THD+N ratio rises with frequency, but I fail to see how ~0.02% at ~10khz is even significant for audiability (taking into consideration 1. the absolute threshold for hearing and 2. masking due to ambient noise and signal).
Much the same story as many have learned, or would benefit to learn, in relation to other things about which measurements, statistics, or the scientific process have something to say. The value of insights that come from measurement is not diminished when the process of obtaining insights is carried out properly - especially when that concerns adherence to the scientific process, where it applies. It's important to understand the limiting factors to the reliability of measurements - the human ability to be dispassionate, the ever-present temptation to see what you want to see, all the ways that people performing measurements can inadvertently (or intentionally) tamper with the results, etc. However, knowing more about the myriad ways in which measurements can be done or interpreted poorly has only deepened my appreciation for how marvelous a tool they are when the measurer adheres carefully to procedure, shows their work, and calls out their own potential areas of bias. Thank you, Golden.
Thank-you for this excellent explanation of potential issues with measurements. Those sites that judge a product solely on measurements are overly zealous for my taste. Thus I've told UA-cam not to recommend such channels for viewing. Before I closed that door completely, I noted more than a few posts on one of those site's forums where they were breaking their arms patting themself on the back for browbeating Schitt into changing their design to achieve better measurements. They never seem to have considered GoldenSound's observation. Fine, it measures better, but how does it sound? I've spent a significant number of years performing data acquisition to test and evaluate the performance of various things. So I know the value of measurements. I also know their limitations. I cannot hear music solely by looking at graphs. My ears and brain are not a piece of electronic measuring equipment.
"How does it sound" I've always found this question interesting, because whenever I've listened to different source gear (outside of tubes/vintage stuff), to me it always sounds like... whatever I'm listening to. I think the only amp I've ever listened to that sounded any different than other amps has been the Jotenheim, in which everything felt like it was bleeding together, almost muddy. Same with any kind of lossless and above, same with DACs. No matter what headphone, no matter what source, I always just kind of listen, and go, "...That's it?" Not only that, but when half the people who say it's a night and day difference, whenever I bust out my switcher and SPL meter to do some matching, whenever they blind-switch between the two, suddenly they have no idea what device is being used. So... I dunno. I think both camps take themselves far too seriously and think they're just imagining stuff, which is super easy to do with your auditory perception. Just get a headphone you love, a nice, clean amp/DAC, and enjoy your fucking music. If you want weird flavor, that's what tubes/EQ is for.
@@KaneAmaroq You seem to be reading more into my comment than I actually said. I wanted to keep the comment short and thus was certain that someone would read way too much into it. I do not go solely by subjective criteria. But in the end, I have to like the way it sounds... to my ears. No one else's. I never claimed to be able to pick out subtle differences between gear in blind A/B testing. And I do not believe that the vast majority of people could pick out the difference between gear with marginally different SINADs. And that's my point. Going solely by measurements is not for me. I never said anything about wanting weird flavors.
With some videos like this being uploaded recently and other channels posting videos like "My Problems with UA-cam Audiophiles" it just makes me wonder if there is some underhanded civil war going on.
This is excellent, thank you! Perhaps you could share a list of reviewers who provide detailed measurements like this, that you mentioned briefly? I was only aware of ASR and found you today. Nice to know more. Just from a viewing perspective it would keep my brain more engaged if I could watch you speaking.
Right now, if you look at audio science review, the best set up according to ranking is: D90SE-->Singer SA-1-->DCA Stealth, then Pre-amp out to Benchmark AHB2--> March Studio Sointuva Speakers. What do you guys think?
Although I rarely change hifi gear... I still remain interested in developments and borrow or go to demo stuff from time to time ....just to keep up! However while measurements are statistically interesting to compare between different products I came realise a long time ago that my ears and tastes are coloured! So I have often still preferred to rely on them.
So then this begs the question, is there ameasurement that explains the increase in perceived sound quality of the Chord Dave over say the Topping DAC ???
Highly informative video, so well explained. So the next question is: how do we measure things the APx555 analyzer is not able to test? Can it tell us everything we need to know about timing, spatial cues, separation, sound stage and other aspects about how the human ear perceives sound? Perhaps it is technically impossible to do so yet, but a wider range of testing seems to be needed.
This is excellent content! I'd love to see you review the Musetec MH-DA005 DAC as that is one where I'd love to see an impartial review which looks at not only measurements but also real listening tests.
I think any this verses that discussion is a red herring. ..so I guess I would agree with you. I think measurements along with listening, can offer some guidance in the process selecting audio products. There is also the room , the rest of the system and its overall balance, and the music and the listener. I have a cd player that sounds lifeless and clinical in my main system, but sounds " musical " in another system elsewhere- bringing the party. I don't understand why. I'm curious though, and I'm glad that there are measurements to consider.
I’m reminded of an interview with Dan 'd Agostino..he built an exceptionally well measuring amplifier..it had all the numbers and power that you could ever want ..just one tiny tiny problem. IT SOUNDED LIKE SHIT WHEN PLAYING MUSIC. As you’ve just showed ..measurements ( biased or not) are only a guide and as a Wiggly Air Enthusiast..there’s so much more to the game. Great and informative video . Thank you. ☕️🥓🤣👍
Thanks for all your great reviews, I really like your approach. Useful measurements with a serious analyzer, combined with subjective listening experience, Perfect! May I suggest the Bluesound Node (N130) for a review with all the measurements. I've got one since a week and the subjective listening experience is much better than with my Sonos Connect(with Tentlabs clockmod), both using an external DAC, BlackLion Sparrow Red. I guess the clock of the Node is quite good and has low jitter, could you back up my guess, or proof me wrong? ;)
I have two questions. Why are there so many people who say that vintage gear sounds a lot better? Does it measure so much better than modern stuff? And what should someone do who has a device that measures awesome, but hates the sound.
I had a 90’s era tube preamp on loan over the weekend. Sounded really nice. It wasn’t accurate at all. You could tell it was producing a ton of even-order harmonic distortion.
@@ChrisMag100 A lot of that distortion is actually pleasing to listen to, but it isn't trendy to say such things. I think what type of music people listen to affects this experience as well.
As a retired electronics design engineer, I just LOVE this channel. The centrists view is a relief compared to the closed minded channels like Audio Science review. I get more out of reviews here. Very, very well done, Thankyou SO much!
Can't wait for the rest of the "Why you can't trust...." series videos. I would like to know more about how something MAY not be as reliable as it seems. The aforementioned comment not aimed at any one person , channel, or video.
![If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile [See description for link to followup video]](/img/n.gif)
As a retired measurement engineer with 42 years of experience I fully agree with this video. You have just scratched the surface. But the real take home on this subject is if the measurement is “excellent” then the likely hood of you hearing that difference is minimal given all the other compromises in a real word system. If there is a difference heard then it will be associated with a difference not covered by that particular measurement. Audio reproduction is complex and one must look at perhaps 20-50 different specific measurements to make a valid comparison. Keep up the excellent work.
Can you recommend me a budget rig to measure a doze of earphones I own? I know my ears are the best judge but I was looking at Gras rigs which are way beyond my budget. Thanks
Good think you retired, I guess.
Music is not nearly as complex as you make it out to be. It's just a bunch of sine waves on top of each other that's it.
You clearly don't know left from rigth and thank god you are not working any longer, because every halfwit engineer is a detriment
@@samk.9972 your ears are the worst judge since they are connected to you brain which is also a shit judge. Once you embrace that you embrace that you will come to enjoy your biases and not care as much.
Imagine if stuff worked like this in IT, we wouldn't be able to copy any data because magical unmeasurable parameters would flip the bits.
Expecting the ASR cult members to get outraged here…. 😂
You have this ease of putting complex and specialized subjects in a language that the layman enthusiast or semi expert can understand. I may have gotten about 60% of what you were talking about but I completely got the point of what you were trying to demonstrate. Huge takeaway for me and major props to you 👊🏻
This has got to be one of the most important videos about product reviews (in general) EVER! One always has to have discernment in product reviews, regardless of who reviewed it and HOW the product was reviewed! Good job @GoldenSound! This is gold indeed! I’m gonna share this to all my friends!
I'm on board with the intent of this video. In any engineering test you document the procedures and the findings. That way someone who wants to repeat the test can do so and they should then arrive at the same result. Where there are differences are almost always attributed to the test procedure itself and not product variation. This is standard stuff in every field. Not just audio components. Anyone who takes issue with your encouragement for that are simply doing so out of spite and letting their emotions override logic.
So, yes, document the procedures and publish the results. Simple.
I also agree that often too much importance is placed on a single value metric (such as SINAD) and the other parts of the whole are tossed by the wayside.
However, you lost me at 27:30 with the statement that "two devices with the same SINAD levels can sound very different". While I agree this is certainly possible, you provided a generic statement with no footing. You spent the better part of 25 minutes making many valid points with examples. And then you dropped that statement as if it were an afterthought. I wish you had taken steps to provide an example of when you have seen this and then provide reasons why that was the cause (i.e., frequency response, different voltage levels needed to reach this SINAD match, etc). This, to me, is much more helpful in providing rationale for a) why measurements can be misleading and also b) how proper measurements can help us learn *why* Product A sounds different than Product B. In my opinion, that should be the goal of a reviewer using data to help supplement their review. I don't believe it serves much purpose to say "here is data, and by the way, this is what I heard" without at least attempting to reconcile those two things.
At any rate, I hope you understand where I'm coming from and don't take this personally. Overall, I'm in complete agreement. I just think this video would have benefited the community if you had taken the extra step to explain your ending statement (or you had simply left that out). Maybe that's a topic for a later video...
Take care,
Erin
I couldn't agree more. Where are the verified double blind ABX tests to allow us to not have to just take your word on this? Who wouldn't want to watch the ASR gremlins have an absolute melt down? Without those tests, the measurement gremlins remain in the right.
"May your air be most wiggly," is the best sign-off ever.
I hope the folks from AP see this. I am always pleased to see another unparalleled and highly technical GoldenSound video. Superb.
Within an hour of posting, in fact.
Thanks for great work, am glad you’re doing what you do, as some people on youtube etc seem to believe their test regime plus superficial listening test constitutes a complete metric for judgement on the quality of reproduction of recorded music, and as such replaces a longterm listening test.
You continually show that you're one of the best audio gear reviewers! I'd love a deep dive into oversampling/NOS!
This kind of information and your style of video presentation are exactly why joined your Patreon; informative indeed. Thanks
Very interesting video! Thanks for doing this.
Excellent video, this will be bookmarked, watched, and rewatched. This is very good information which I think the public deserved to hear. Thank you.
Better if you download it, using any of several add-ons to your browser.
@@cjay2 I could do that yeah, thanks Jay 👍👍
the "my $100 topping/smsl dac is the best sounding dac in the whole world" crowd are very angry right now, i can feel it in my bones.
There's great options at every price point these days. I really like the original kardas toneboards honestly, they sound phenomenal for the money.
Take your bones for a proper blind test. See if they can tell a difference between a capable 500 dollar DS DAC or a 50000 dollar DS DAC. Talk is cheap. Do it.
@@AbsoluteFidelity done one the ones i couldn't tell apart were a smsl su-8, klipsch heritage and a toneboard. A littledot, topping and a rotel were easy to tell apart honestly. All good dacs littledot excluded but they sound different to each other.
@@DueM any measurements of the littledot, topping and rotel? Measurements will tell if there are any ausible differences. And Im not talking about SINAD either, other parts of the measurement can and would indicate audible differences.
@@AbsoluteFidelity i left you a reply earlier hopefully you got it. it was left for everyone but it got deleted. so i guess there's no reason for me to post anything else here if that's gonna be censored. wow. that's how this channel wants to carry it.
An excellent video. GoldenSound you really communicated this very well. And I love the sound of your voice/accent/grammar. The very best of ye old British. Cool. Excellent diction and pace. Very easy to listen to. Superb explanations, very well presented. Thank you.
Thanks!
Excellent explanation. Now I finally understand why many of ASR's top DACs, preamps and Amps that I have blindly purchased where easily surpassed on listening tests by others that measured worse. The X26 pro mentioned by you is one of the betters that I have. Easily on par with my Chord TT2. The TT2 do some things slightly better and some slightly worse. Question: it is the upsampling built into Roon good enough to avoid purchasing an M-Scaler or the Chord's algorihm is better?
a pleasure to watch and superbly informative as per usual. cheers!
The problem I have run into is that the gear the measures well doesn’t sound great and the gear that sounds great doesn’t always measure well. Thd and Sinad in my experience typically have little correlation if the amp will sound well (subjectively). So I’m struggling to use objective data when subjectively my Brain is telling me otherwise. Perhaps I enjoy distortion perhaps we cannot measure that which I enjoy or perhaps the measurements are just wrong or inconsistent as you state.
It also have to do with loading of your speaker because of the complexity of crossover and drivers. Those two are just measuring noise nothing else. Like Benchmark AHB2, it is the best in ASR. But you see some user returning this product. It is also well measure in Stereophile. You have to listen to amp with the speaker it drive in subjective way. No way to tell whether the product is worth buying just looking at graphs. I mean lots of people can swore by 300B including me.
Alternative title: "How to interpret and understand measurement settings".
I saw your reply post that you made under the new account on ASR, and sure enough, they removed it. What kind of place is ASR, where someone isn't even allowed to appropriately respond to accusations against them?
Personally, this is a fantastic and informative video. Please keep up your work!
One Measurement Rig to rule them all, I guess!
I had my account banned after I said I could easily discern the SQ of each of my DACs (all ASR-SOTA level). Even after I followed their null test requirement and the test result 100% supported my judgement they started to ask for further testing seeking a way to disqualify my listening tests. They don't accept that measurements are always incomplete by nature and that listening to the devices should always be the deciding factor.
ASR has a childishly thin skin it seems.
My fellow golden addicts, REJOICE, we’ve got another one!
Excellent. It is so nice to see something informative like this put up. I think many consumers jump to conclusions regarding measurements without knowing the full picture. I hope this will change some minds.
Really interesting, educational and helpful, thanks so much for this thorough walk through, it’s clear that you’ve invested many hours in putting this together!
Greatwork, it shows that, as almost everything in life, one can not reduce things to a hand full of numbers. This is also applicable to cars for example.
This is excellent, but with one complaint and a few comments. My complaint is that near the end around 27:40 you claim that two DACs with very high Sinad levels can sound very different. No, they can't. That tells me that the listening comparison was flawed. If the response of an audio device is flat within, say, 1/4 dB across the full range, and the sum of all artifacts is 90+ dB below the music, then the device is considered to be audibly transparent. Any coloration that is added can be measured, but nobody will ever hear it. So by definition all transparent devices sound alike. This then leads to my comment: Again, this video is excellent, and it's valuable to anyone who truly cares about audio. But I fear the sensationalist headline will give ammunition to the Luddite crowd who dismiss measurements and believe "just listen" is superior. Measuring beats listening every day of the week for many reasons. Though, as you point out, measurements can be skewed. (And some vendors just lie and make stuff up. I've seen that with acoustic treatment products.) So it's important for people to understand that once a device is clean enough to be audibly transparent, anything better doesn't matter. Nobody can hear the difference between distortion at 0.003 and 0.006 percent. And the real point is that it's not worth paying ten times more for something that measures better but doesn't actually sound better.
Agreed. I raised a similar concern earlier.
If the headphone amplifiers' output impedance are different, then they can sound different for some headphones (like sennheiser 600 series)? Do Rebel and Drop THX even have same flat frequency response?
@@deafno Yes, this is true. But a headphone's output impedance should be as close to zero ohms as possible, just like a loudspeaker output. A 30 ohm speaker output impedance will sound different too!
There is one situation where having specs better than what is audible can be useful, but it applies more to recording studios than to hi-fi reproduction at the end of the chain of audio devices. This is from my Audio Expert book:
Even if a device is audibly transparent, that doesn't mean it's "good enough," and so recording engineers and consumers won't benefit from even higher performance. Audio typically passes through *many* devices in its long journey from the studio microphones to your loudspeakers, and what we ultimately hear is the sum of degradation from all of the devices combined. This means not just distortion and noise, but also frequency response errors. When audio passes through five devices in a row that each have a modest 1 dB loss at 20 Hz, the net response is a 5 dB reduction at 20 Hz.
@@ErinsAudioCorner Yes, scrolling further down now I see your excellent comment.
I finally got a THX AAA 789 months after it started selling out. Measurement geeks were drooling over it.
Several months later I resold it. It was clean but sterile to my ears. That taught me not to give in to the measurement ONLY drones.
I mean, just use an EQ then. Why wouldn’t you want an accurate, clean slate to start with?
@@blueversace4447 if there are some amazing EQ settings that will transform the THX into a V281 or Darkvoice please share them
@@blueversace4447 Adding EQ is good to shape your listening curve. That is alway a phase issue with EQ. That why many audiophile do not wanna touch EQ. It is not get a flat respond and you are done.
@@blueversace4447 this is a timber problem. The thx just sounds dry no matter the headphone plugged into it
what are you using now?
As with nearly all measurements, they are far better equipped to inform us about possible flaws than to educate us on sound, as experienced by the listener.
We needed this video so much. This is part of why I never really paid attention to measurements. I give more credit to subjective feedback, especially when I could validate their impression by testing a piece of equipment myself. It worked for me and I am happy with what I have.
(trying to post this comment now for the 4th time, youtube is having issues or this channel is filtering comments .... anyway ... ) Excellent -- you get the GOLD medal for this legwork, GOLDENSOUND. Thanks!
BTW ... in your opening, you forgot to mention the other heavyweight, longtime-running OBJECTIVIST forum, hygrogenaudio. They do some in-house measurements but it is mostly a discussion forum of think-tanks.
BTW2 ... If Amir is reading this comment, then I highly encourage him to make a response video as he does with PS Audio.
As always, an amazing video, dude.
I'll stick with my ears and brain measuring how much pleasure i get from any bit of kit.
Topping A90 measures incredibly well, i auditioned it and hated it bigtime. Bright, harsh, cold, not a great soundstage and just not my cup of tea.
I auditioned the Benchmark HPA4, what a fabulous amp, another THX amp that measures extremely well but completely different to the Topping. Sounded next level with my planars, made them sound like electrostats however, a bit too neutral for my HD800.
In the end i settled for a Violectric V550 Pro, works really well for both cans and while i have no idea how that measures i really loved the sound.
I'm very glad i take little notice of measurements. 👍
Interesting experience, I've used an A90 and couldn't possibly describe it any way you mentioned. To me it just sounds 100% uncolored. No harshness, definitely not bright at all (it's totally flat, after all), and cold... Again. it's extremely neutral. I think you might just have a preference for warmth, AKA boosted high-bass/lower mids.
To me it sounded 100% identical to the HPA4 I demoed. Not a lick of difference between the two.
But then again, I also level-matched both with an SPL meter, swapped between them within 0.5 seconds using a switcher, and did it completely blind. If you don't take those into account, your sense of expectation WILL affect how you hear. It is 100% unavoidable.
That's why you can't really trust your ears for anything but preference, UNLESS you eliminate every single factor that can influence your sense of hearing.
In Toppings defense, you were using an absolute wonkfest of a headphone with it. If the HD800 doesn't sound wonky as hell, there's an issue in your chain :D
@@KaneAmaroq You don't have a clue what i prefer, and it's a good thing we all hear things differently otherwise life would be extremely dull and annoying to say the least.
@@Gamez4eveR There are zero problems in my chain, my cans are doing great thanks. This is the problem with opinions, if you express one that is contrary to a fanboy of a particular product they will tell you that you're wrong or you have a problem. Thank god we all think differently.
@@spanmanuk You described a preference for warmth, I'm sorry you're so offended by others recognizing it.
Also ignored the fact that it was probably just in your head, lol.
Fantastic video. An excellent challenge to those in both the objectivist and subjective camps that not everything is black and white. Audio, like life, is nuanced and open to interpretation.
Making a buying choice based on ASR's SINAD ranking chart is folly. But we're living in an era when people are more concerned about ease (in buying audio gear) and being "better" than others, instead of relying on one's own ears to tell oneself what one likes.
It’s unrealistic to expect people to shoulder the costs required for such testing. Relying on one’s ears is not necessarily a simple concept when there is cost involved in procuring or encountering the equipment necessary to experiment, along with the time and effort to even work through the process once it’s been enabled.
Also, people can imagine they’re better than others at all different levels of a situation like this (ofc for differing reasons), so I won’t address that further.
Dumb to buy equipment based in SINAD alone. ALL data have to be taken into account.
Absolutely. Hearing the devices always should be the first and most important judgement parameter.
Thank you Cameron. I would also add that while competently undertaken measurements provide a strong foundation and are crucial for understanding the technical aspects of audio equipment, they can only partially predict the subjective listening experience - some argue within a range of 50 - 70% accuracy. Therefore, while measurements are highly valuable, listening tests remain essential to gain the true picture of sonic performance.
This was an excellent video, which also partially debunks some of the arguments from the “you can’t hear a difference because they measure the same” brigade. The fallacy here being failing to understand the limitations of any measurement methodology.
I did like how you pronounced Shiit. (I’m sure they make quality equipment, however.)
Reading the topic on a certain forum and seeing how they take things out of context so much is painful.
I did make a response to this. It was of course deleted almost immediately. However if anyone wishes to read it there is an archive.org copy of the page here: web.archive.org/web/20220421140602/www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/why-you-cant-trust-audio-measurements-by-goldensound.33222/page-4
@@GoldenSound I've been following all the story, and you didn't chicken out as they say.
Amir was the first one to "reboot" the challenge as he said. Then you stop participating and the overall idea was that you chicken out when in reality you were banned.
Of course your reply would not be visible for some time because not only you overcome the rules of the forum by posting in a different nickname (most forum have rules that prevent overcoming ban by creating a new user) but because you "opened the Pandora box" and that may result in further scrutiny by third parties and assumptions when something is rated higher than others.
Specially when in the end of each review he keeps asking for more Patreon donations. I'm not saying his work should be free but someone as him could easily get a job at any company or even in the standards industry that would pay his bills, if the accolades he say to have are true, of course.
I'm not a member of his forum, and I don't pretend to because I have a issue with "I'm always right" type of mentality and deflection of mistakes, combined with blind following. I remember perfectly Amir being supportive of MQA, that you debunked.
For someone who is and claims to be objectivist and measurements driven person, I found it strange he doesn't first tried to analyse such codec claims before stating his position, specially when the licence agreement had come to light and the "Management Rights" were clearly the main focus of the Codec itself, or the big 3 audio publishers who control 75% of the market would not had jumped ship without thinking twice. We know perfectly well that they would not do it if the only advantageous setting was for the consumer.
It was disadvantageous for the consumer and highly profitable for their coffers.
Take that, Amir.
@First Last He already object this video in his own website, but two dac sound different.
I guess you didn't watch the video
Amir says Topping D90 is the bestest! But he never listened to it for his review. 😂🤣😂🤣
I'm pretty sure Amir knows about all these things lol. That's why he uses standardized settings for testing. The only difference is Amir doesn't believe that amps or DACs sound different.
He uses standardized settings on his measurements you dingus.. His measurements are the most real world based. The stuff he measures sound as he describes them. I bought most of my setup based on his suggestions and I can tell that you can spend 10s of thousands more, I have, and have the same or worse results.
Enjoyed this. Thanks, you can tell many hours went into creating such a video.
An absolutely fantastic video that every person into audio should watch! Really hope this gets the viewership it deserves.
Way better detail and explanation with transparency than the other measurement channels.
Educate, inform, entertain. Nice job
Ha ha ! well done Sir! thanks for your insight information on test settings. In engineering we have a say 'What is the load?' and you can't arguing with the science, that's you can't hear below -120db.
Subscribed!.. am impressed regarding your transparency in your videos. Learned a lot! Thank you.
That's why I always believe controlled listening test. For example if comparing two streamer transports. You need a friend to hook up the units and there is a cover over your equipment rack so you don't know which one is hooked up. In your room with your equipment with your music. Let your ears, brain & heart to choose the one that you like the most. It's that simple.
Also make sure you're able to level-match the two, even a 0.5 dB difference in volume will make you prefer the louder source, because it'll sound more 'clear and impactful' to you.
@@KaneAmaroq Yes for sure! And also no pressure. You have to be relaxed in your surrounding!
Yes it's on the individual to improve understating and interpretation of data points. My slow crawl to better understanding is quite fun so far.
Yep. ALL data must be interpreted.
That's how we ended up with Delta Sigma/high oversampling DACs ruling the roost when a TDA1543 or similar type DAC may sound better as the noise is pushed out of band with high sampling types.
In real world, high sampling rate reduce floor noise. Your filter can be implemented much higher than audible frequency. With DSD 512 or 758kPCM, you can throw the filter away. This is the chip itself. All the components surround the chipset contributed more of the overall performance.
This is amazing, I won’t pretend to have been able to follow everything, but the important areas I do understand where massively helpful.
You're very honest, i love this video . Just shows you how certain sites can cook the numbers. Using a SINAD value at 1KHZ is really poor, especially not showing the full console to show how the AP is configured, kudos to you sir for your honesty!
Very informative! Thanks a lot, that helps me as a consumer to unterstand whats going on. And a big take away for me: know your reviewer and the conditions of testing and how that translate to your situation.
I really enjoyed this video. The question I'm usually left asking upon visiting ASR is "Yes, OK, but did you LISTEN to it? How did it SOUND?" They seem to value 1) measurements, 2) loudness, 3) looks/form factor/aesthetics, and somewhere--way down the list--how it actually sounds.
ua-cam.com/video/zrpUDuUtxPM/v-deo.html
Because even Floyd Toole agrees, subjective tests in the way that all reviewers do it are USELESS
7:18 is where he exactly says it. Entire thing is worth a watch though
This is like the matrix moment where neo sits in the chair and gets information downloads. :)
Nice! I appreciate the look behind the measurements. I do think you can trust folks that are genuinely consistent to have 'useful' measurements, but I do agree that there should be some careful subjective insight to help you understand the full picture.
Thank you so much for making this video. This kind of information needs to be shared and you're doing good work.
Nice to see someone else carrying this torch. Well done!
A lot of speculations. How can you put your feet into the device designer's shoes and claim that they 'intended' to choose a default output level that measures better? Without proof, that's pretty far-fetched, isn't it? The inter-sample peak is also a poor example. Okay, some DACs by default has a -3dB digital attenuation, does it stop anyone from setting it back to 0dBFS, or does it stop other DACs from having a same 3dB digital attenuation? Some DAC chips have more headroom in their internal data path than the others. The DAC manufacturers are limited to what the chip vendors provide, and sometimes had to come up with compromises such as the above.
I like your free measurement reports, and I still trust them. Hopefully there is no free personal agenda in those numbers and charts.
We are quite aware of what you point out. I always consider results as "ballpark" and useful proxies for real world results all things considered. There is no "philosopher's stone" inside the test rigs. But they do provide very useful info. Way better than the waffle that some people put out.
Any academically serious analysis should ideally include a "tech file" defining the test procedure and configurations used.
We are proceeding incrementally, measuring becomes more useful as accepted practice evolves for the better.
A big part of the reason I just ordered a Holo Spring 3 KTE was because you said the jitter was extremely low via USB and an external DDC wasn’t necessary. I’ve been looking to reduce my digital front end from two boxes to one. Uh oh...we’ll see.
@First Last
Wow. Maybe I should keep mine?
I keep hearing that at some point in your signal chain, get the signal to go through a glass optical cable to eliminate any kind of emi or rfi. I wonder if anyone else has experience with this versus a dedicated DDC that never goes optical.
I bought a new ampabout a month ago. I noticed that this manufacture's specs are usually very conservative and the amps usually perform better in their measurements. I wondered why at the time. And thought maybe they do that to not get locked into a design just to chase a spec. No EE, but I think I see how it could give them freedom to better balanced design tradeoffs. I had no idea that measurements choices themselves could be so subjective.
Keep in mind, measurements are the ONLY way audio consumers have to decide upon gear - few stores, few demo opportunities. Unfortunate but the reality.
Your voice is so clear and engaging.
having just bought an audio analyzer, this is usefull to think about when trying to get consistent usefull readings
i love these videos. this comes at a time where I'm returning an incredible good measuring amp because it sounds flat and compressed. meanwhile, even if the measurements are done well, one of the guys from audio precision himself talks about why the methods we use are insufficient in the first place ua-cam.com/video/J6d14cTiCjI/v-deo.html
I looks like you ASR and others are using the same holy grail system of measurements in ASR'S case is those final results that matters only in 50 years of trying equipment with similar specs and twikes that made no measurable difference there is still a lot to learn especially stereo imaging even the simplest piece of music is a constantly changing complex tonal pattern
This is a must watch !
Very well organized, I enjoyed it a lot and it highlighted a lot of the parameters that can affect the measurement outcomes of a device.
One thing I'd like to contend about (or would like a more detailed explaination of) is if the Rebel's "warmth" could be indicated by any of the measurements you have made. You pointed out in 21:14 that its THD+N ratio rises with frequency, but I fail to see how ~0.02% at ~10khz is even significant for audiability (taking into consideration 1. the absolute threshold for hearing and 2. masking due to ambient noise and signal).
Much the same story as many have learned, or would benefit to learn, in relation to other things about which measurements, statistics, or the scientific process have something to say. The value of insights that come from measurement is not diminished when the process of obtaining insights is carried out properly - especially when that concerns adherence to the scientific process, where it applies. It's important to understand the limiting factors to the reliability of measurements - the human ability to be dispassionate, the ever-present temptation to see what you want to see, all the ways that people performing measurements can inadvertently (or intentionally) tamper with the results, etc. However, knowing more about the myriad ways in which measurements can be done or interpreted poorly has only deepened my appreciation for how marvelous a tool they are when the measurer adheres carefully to procedure, shows their work, and calls out their own potential areas of bias. Thank you, Golden.
Thank-you for this excellent explanation of potential issues with measurements. Those sites that judge a product solely on measurements are overly zealous for my taste. Thus I've told UA-cam not to recommend such channels for viewing. Before I closed that door completely, I noted more than a few posts on one of those site's forums where they were breaking their arms patting themself on the back for browbeating Schitt into changing their design to achieve better measurements. They never seem to have considered GoldenSound's observation. Fine, it measures better, but how does it sound? I've spent a significant number of years performing data acquisition to test and evaluate the performance of various things. So I know the value of measurements. I also know their limitations. I cannot hear music solely by looking at graphs. My ears and brain are not a piece of electronic measuring equipment.
"How does it sound"
I've always found this question interesting, because whenever I've listened to different source gear (outside of tubes/vintage stuff), to me it always sounds like... whatever I'm listening to.
I think the only amp I've ever listened to that sounded any different than other amps has been the Jotenheim, in which everything felt like it was bleeding together, almost muddy.
Same with any kind of lossless and above, same with DACs. No matter what headphone, no matter what source, I always just kind of listen, and go, "...That's it?"
Not only that, but when half the people who say it's a night and day difference, whenever I bust out my switcher and SPL meter to do some matching, whenever they blind-switch between the two, suddenly they have no idea what device is being used.
So... I dunno. I think both camps take themselves far too seriously and think they're just imagining stuff, which is super easy to do with your auditory perception. Just get a headphone you love, a nice, clean amp/DAC, and enjoy your fucking music. If you want weird flavor, that's what tubes/EQ is for.
@@KaneAmaroq You seem to be reading more into my comment than I actually said. I wanted to keep the comment short and thus was certain that someone would read way too much into it. I do not go solely by subjective criteria. But in the end, I have to like the way it sounds... to my ears. No one else's. I never claimed to be able to pick out subtle differences between gear in blind A/B testing. And I do not believe that the vast majority of people could pick out the difference between gear with marginally different SINADs. And that's my point. Going solely by measurements is not for me. I never said anything about wanting weird flavors.
Technically speaking, I think that what you just said is exactly what the human brain is lol. Just a very complex one.
So i wonder why do 600 ohm Headphones are low in Volume and sound Flat on a PC headphone jack when you need less current to drive them?
Do you think everything is measurable?
I put more weight on linearity and 1st and 2nd harmonics than sinad.
Thanks for a great video
With some videos like this being uploaded recently and other channels posting videos like "My Problems with UA-cam Audiophiles" it just makes me wonder if there is some underhanded civil war going on.
This is excellent, thank you! Perhaps you could share a list of reviewers who provide detailed measurements like this, that you mentioned briefly? I was only aware of ASR and found you today. Nice to know more.
Just from a viewing perspective it would keep my brain more engaged if I could watch you speaking.
I heard one of the Benchmark DACs...hated it.
I owned the Benchmark HPA headphone amp...sold it. It had no “meat on the bones.”
Golden, can you please do a video where you recommend different portable dac amps?
Can you take a look at the singxer sda 6 pro it apparently has nos but it uses a ak4499eq
Right now, if you look at audio science review, the best set up according to ranking is: D90SE-->Singer SA-1-->DCA Stealth, then Pre-amp out to Benchmark AHB2--> March Studio Sointuva Speakers. What do you guys think?
To quote Zeos " heres how shit your music is , deal with it"
Although I rarely change hifi gear... I still remain interested in developments and borrow or go to demo stuff from time to time ....just to keep up!
However while measurements are statistically interesting to compare between different products I came realise a long time ago that my ears and tastes are coloured! So I have often still preferred to rely on them.
So then this begs the question, is there ameasurement that explains the increase in perceived sound quality of the Chord Dave over say the Topping DAC ???
Highly informative video, so well explained. So the next question is: how do we measure things the APx555 analyzer is not able to test? Can it tell us everything we need to know about timing, spatial cues, separation, sound stage and other aspects about how the human ear perceives sound? Perhaps it is technically impossible to do so yet, but a wider range of testing seems to be needed.
This is excellent content! I'd love to see you review the Musetec MH-DA005 DAC as that is one where I'd love to see an impartial review which looks at not only measurements but also real listening tests.
I think any this verses that discussion is a red herring. ..so I guess I would agree with you. I think measurements along with listening, can offer some guidance in the process selecting audio products. There is also the room , the rest of the system and its overall balance, and the music and the listener. I have a cd player that sounds lifeless and clinical in my main system, but sounds " musical " in another system elsewhere- bringing the party. I don't understand why. I'm curious though, and I'm glad that there are measurements to consider.
Thanks a ton for this video. Hugely valuable to advancing the discussion
I’m reminded of an interview with
Dan 'd Agostino..he built an exceptionally well measuring amplifier..it had all the numbers and power that you could ever want ..just one tiny tiny problem.
IT SOUNDED LIKE SHIT WHEN PLAYING MUSIC.
As you’ve just showed ..measurements ( biased or not) are only a guide and as a Wiggly Air Enthusiast..there’s so much more to the game.
Great and informative video .
Thank you.
☕️🥓🤣👍
@@buffal0bilious TOOOOOOOBBBBBBSSS
Thank you for a very intertaining interesting video!
谢谢！
Will your next video be about the Gustard X18?
Thanks for the advice, cheers
people give measurements way… too much credit and they stop trusting their ears.
@First Last I noticed that some people need other people to confirm that their purchase was right for them to love the product. 😂
Thanks for all your great reviews, I really like your approach.
Useful measurements with a serious analyzer, combined with subjective listening experience, Perfect!
May I suggest the Bluesound Node (N130) for a review with all the measurements.
I've got one since a week and the subjective listening experience is much better than with my Sonos Connect(with Tentlabs clockmod), both using an external DAC, BlackLion Sparrow Red.
I guess the clock of the Node is quite good and has low jitter, could you back up my guess, or proof me wrong? ;)
Thank you for the excellent insights
For both øoudspeakers and amps the largest problem is distortions in the timing, so using a sinus to measure is hopeless.
Great educational content!
Thanks for this! Very much needed info...
I have two questions. Why are there so many people who say that vintage gear sounds a lot better? Does it measure so much better than modern stuff? And what should someone do who has a device that measures awesome, but hates the sound.
Yup, my brother is 33, but does not own any gear made after 1979, and never frets over any of this stuff.
I had a 90’s era tube preamp on loan over the weekend. Sounded really nice.
It wasn’t accurate at all. You could tell it was producing a ton of even-order harmonic distortion.
@@ChrisMag100 A lot of that distortion is actually pleasing to listen to, but it isn't trendy to say such things. I think what type of music people listen to affects this experience as well.
As a retired electronics design engineer, I just LOVE this channel. The centrists view is a relief compared to the closed minded channels like Audio Science review. I get more out of reviews here. Very, very well done, Thankyou SO much!
why do you say audio science review is close minded?
@@XX-121 Because they are, they look at pure data and treat is as the end all be all. They even said i2s is the same to spdif, let that sink in.
Yes ASR fanatics are very close minded .
Fourier is sadg
Totally agree. I find ASR to be just as disingenuous as any subjective reviewer - either that or just ignorant.
Request - try making one of these about headphone measurements. I've always been deeply skeptical of the near-religious position given to them.
Watch Dan Clarke headphone measurements 101
Nothing but awesome!!! Thank you!
Excellent video well done!
I enjoyed every minute!
What did you think of the yggy?
Can't wait for the rest of the "Why you can't trust...." series videos. I would like to know more about how something MAY not be as reliable as it seems. The aforementioned comment not aimed at any one person , channel, or video.