A masterclass on DAC measurements. Kudos Amir! The UA-cam algorithm had hidden this little gem from me for one month. Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge and passion.
Excellent insights offered from the Wizard! Thank you. I've visited your website over the last 2 years and my enjoyment of music has dramatically increased from my first DAC, an Anedio D2, an excellent DAC in its own right, to a Topping E50, using a very low noise powerbank. Your analyses of audio components has brought a tremendous amount transparency and honesty to a market that has survived in the past on slick marketing and dollars spent on magazine advertising. Sunlight is, indeed, the best disinfectent. Thank you for that!
Thank you so much, for the video & your time, prof! This is that one type of a video idea people will appreciate & a video that, honestly, should have been made a long time ago already to help people (especially the normies (the majority of people) & audiophiles) to understand the measurements way more. Now that we're together changing the world & the whole audio industry from distortion to actual high fidelity, these things are very important to understand!
You're not the only one. I spend more time trying to interpret what the pose of the panther is trying to convey than comprehending the data in the various graphs!
Awesome info as usual! I am seriously considering the Zidoo Neo Alpha, their top line streamer/DAC/media player. With measurements like you have shown, I am going to pull the trigger! Thanks Amir!
Wonderful video Amir. If possible could you address clock quality at some point? When relatively inexpensive DACs produce jitter below threshold of hearing, what benefit is there to having a fancy temperature-controlled clock and advertising it as a feature worth paying for?
Thanks and great idea for another video! For now, no, you don't need stable clocks. Our hearing is not sensitive to speed of playback. It is sensitive to variation in speed which is jitter.
Excellento! Now I understand all those graphs and their meanings. Would like similar video on headphones measurements, How are they measured and what is measured? How are sound signal to sound measurements done and performance evaluated? Thanks!
Great stuff. Any ideas of potential meaningful aspects that influence sound quality that would not show on these tests since a lot of people seem to think so? Why wouldn't time domain be an important angle for testing as many seem to think it is?
For electronics, the only thing that doesn't show up is potential for ground loops that you may have in your system especially if you use unbalanced RCA connections. Other than that, the track record shows that when we declare a DAC transparent, it is so. Where some ambiguity set in, is in headphone and speaker measurements. I will cover these in upcoming videos. On time domain, no, it has little relevance in the context of these devices. I do show the filtering where such a difference exists from measurement point of view but from audibility, it is not there unless it cuts into frequency response.
Thanks. Had software issues. Produced two videos but neither recorded for some reason. They were both very long so set me back as far as motivation. Fortunately got an update to the software and all is well. So I expect to produce more now.
Hi Amir! Love the objective reviews. I was wondering if you could give some advice? Ive been looking around for a new Amp in my simple Stereo system with little luck so far. Id love something sleek and thought I found it in something like the Rega IO but saw your review and was not impressed. Is there a minimalist Amp around the 500€ range, with a remote and smaller sized footprint that you would recommend? Or would something like the Argon SA1 despite some poor measurements still suffice for an audio enthusiast who wants to hear quality analog and digital audio through some tower speakers?
Great video but I have a question if I may. You showed SINAD vs Volume Level where on the x axis you have Vrms but in other reviews like for instance the one for Topping D70 Pro Sabre, the X axis is showing Time and there is a 2nd Y axis. How to read this?
I always enjoy seeing your measurements and your choice of panther for a given product. That said, I’d love a way of hiding the panther reveal until I’ve had a chance to read the measurements. Maybe take two pics: DUT alone, and DUT with your choice of panther. Panther pic reveals by clicking spoiler button? Regardless… Thank you, Amir, for reviewing all these devices, speakers, etc., posting these companion videos, and for hosting & running your incredibly helpful website!
I hear you. :) Originally the panthers were decorations for the product shot. As they formed meaning, I left it that way. Hopefully people still read the review even with the panther giving away the plot.
@@AudioScienceReview I also hope people (and manufacturers) take the time to read the entirety of your reviews. Understanding what is working well and what isn’t working so well on a device is how the whole industry improves. I’ve learned a great deal from your reviews and explanations; thank you! Hope you’re enjoying the sunny day!
Thank you Amir for an excellent video! You had a quick line in this video (paraphrasing) dismissing the musicality of distortion, but so many audiophiles love vinyl, tubes, and dirty amplification (Nelson Pass is a hero). What do you think is going on here? I'd like to hear more about what you meant with that line about distortion.
I think the love for vinyl comes with better mastering than digital. Digital encourages pushing the levels up to near max where the opposite is true of LP. While i am annoyed by LP distortions and noise, most audiophiles learn to ignore them (or don't hear them). After measuring ton of tube products, their distortions are either inaudible to most people, or are annoying to my ears. Hence the comment in the video. What people really like is the mastering, not the distortion.
Amir, why does AVR or AVP cannot achieve 110 or 120dB SINAD ? Why are they stuck to 90 range ? For AVR I could think about bas stuff coming from amp parasiting DAC... But AVP have the same behavior, and they are pricey DAC with a lot of technological stuff inside. So why cannot AVP reach 110-120 SINAD ?
Hello, i watched the channel of iiwi. He reviews a lot of Dac's and he describes the sound of a dac and the differences in dac's like no other can. He has a preference to R2R dac's but recently he reviewed the Lampizator Baltic 3 dac and it blowed the competition away and it was also his most expensive dac, it has tubes. But he slightly loved the diy Lampizator dac more. Not sure what diy dac, i guess there is only one. It would be great to see this diy dac tested by you. It is also more affordable then the baltic 3. If not possible any other dac from Lampizator would be fine. A lot of people say that Lampizator dac's sounds very different to most dac's.
Thank you, this is terrific! I would also love to see how you do these measurements, e.g. how you connect the analyzer to the DAC/AMP and how to use the software to do all these tests, like a tutorial for a beginner who also wants to do measurements. Cheers!
Sir I have a question. I have a Topping DX5 connect into my Mac and I heard a minor audio quality change when switch from DAC mode to PRE mode. Is that in PRE mode Dx5 only amplify the audio signal converted by my Mac's DAC or the signal is DA on DX5 then they add a digital volume after it? Thank you so much sir.
Hello sir how do i check whether my dongle dac is really neutral or not? How do i measure the dacs frequency response, it should be flat right if it is really neutral
That display with the VU meters is grandiose! 👌 Thanks for your work! The DACs is getting more and more in the world...😁 I know you have DAKs RME ADI-2! I have a question: Which one is better for you subjectively in terms of sound on an ESS chip or ASAHI Kassey?
Hi Amir/all, what is (and the difference between) "Generator Level (dBFS)" and "Measured Level (Vrms)" under the IMD and SINAD vs Measured Level measurements respectively? Are they the level of the digital input signal fed to the device or the output of the device itself whereby 0 is when the device is set to maximum on the physical volume knob or something? *Also Power vs Distortion in the headphone amp section for devices such as all in one audio interfaces, this is really confusing me and I do not know how to get the most/best balance out of the components I have :')
I still don't understand, how come I have an R2R dac that probably measures worse than my eversolo dmp a6 master edition dac and still sounds better, the soundstage and separation are better, bass is more clean and pronounced and voices appear more dense and chesty?
Neubee question: Are all frequencies have the same inaudible distortions? I mean you fed the DAC with a 1K signal. What would happen if you feed it with different frequency signals?
I run another test that I showed where I sweep all frequencies. Indeed, every device acts differently in that regard. The good thing is that harmonics of 1 kHz land where our hearing is most sensitive So if we are going to pick one frequency, 1 kHz is one of the better ones.
Hi Amir! Your video got me thinking: have you ever done (just for fun) a null comparison between a source (music) track and a DAC’s output? Or perhaps between two DACs? Now I’m not knowledgeable enough about audio, but is it fair assume such a comparison wouldn’t reveal much that the sweep and 32-tone already are? 😺
I was unaware of this Zidoo product, but I have the Neo Alpha which is great especially as most of my use is for the media player with just some music, I wanted better quality and low noise with the dynamics for my home theater. But even the processing on the video with the vs10 looks great and is complemented as frequently as the sound. Just hoping the same care and effort went into Zidoo Neo Alpha. Great review!
Is it, or would it be implied, for example, that the top 1/2 dozen or so DAC's that you've measured Amir (in the higher end of the "blue") would, because they all measure similarly and have "state of the art" measurements, also likely sound very similar to one another? If I had (putting it another way) an opportunity to audition those same 6 DAC's, could or would it be implied that trying to distinguish between them would probably or even generally be more or less a waste of time? That is, at that level would it only be the general aesthetics that each one has to offer that would be more of the deciding factors assuming I were going to purchase one of the six - or - would whatever exact chip set type/implementation etc., regardless of the state of the art measurements play a factor in sound differences that could be heard in blind testing?
Most definitely. Really, distinguishing any DAC in the blue region (some 50+ DACs) would likely sound the same in almost all cases. So shop based on features, price, etc. once you see the measurements show competence. No reason to just chase top 20 DACs unless the budget allows.
Thank you Amir from France, the Neo S and my 2nd Zidoo after the UHD 2000 and the marriage of my Neo S with my StormAudio MKII is really excellent in 2.0, 2.1 and 7.1 music such a crystal clear sound and incredible details not to mention the dynamism in music as well as in home cinema. Zidoo deserves to be known.
I wish you would add more measurements to the amp reviews. What good is better sinad if no one can hear it anymore ... maybe there should be more measurements that incentivise the companies to do better in other areas.
They all do depending on the level. Fortunately you can get budget DACs with measurements that are below threshold of audibility, letting your content to shine through.
This is nice and all but too much weight is given to measuring reproduction of 1kHz signal. I suggest more notice is given to Smirnoff's df metric. It is using a sequence of test signals from the simple 1kHz sine, over triangle and square waves to samples of real music to overkill (white noise), measuring and calculating the difference and weighting the score. There are many DACs that are good at reproducing sine waves but not so good at reproducing complex signals and vice versa, e.g. as shown by HypetheSonics measurements.
Your assumptions there are not correct. Only the dashboard and DNR are 1 kHz. As I explained in the video, IMD is dual tones (60 and 7 kHz), Jitter is a complex sum of 12kHz and 250 Hz, multitone is 32 tones and THD vs frequency is every frequency. DF metric has issues I won't go into now.
@@AudioScienceReview While all those data is presented, only 1kHz SINAD is given a colorful compare chart. That can misled some people to give more weight to the measurement of a borderline case. I'm just suggesting that people, who are interested in a simple, comparable metric check the alternative approach.
Everyone reviews Dac’s at all prices points. They talk about how good an inexpensive Dac is. My question how do all of the dac’s compare to the dac in AVR’s.
I was an accidental complainer, as I didn’t understand the poll at the top was meant to represent the interpretation of the data itself. I thought it reflected opinions of people who experienced the product first hand.
Measurments do not totally translate to how the box actually sounds in your room through your speakers, to your ears etc. etc. The end sound comes down to personal taste, not analyser readouts.
Simple: they don't do a controlled test where only the sound is heard. In sighted tests, anything goes. I can make no change but say that I have and people will say something is better. The distortions in R2R dacs are below detections of people so they don't hear that as an advantage either.
When you hold up a wet finger to measure wind speed, direction, and humidity level, what is the science behind and objective reproducible accuracy level of your testing approach?
I see a couple of problems with these measurements, for example it is obvious that absolutely any modern DAC has a level of harmonic distortion WAY below the level of detection. Accordingly, they should all sound the same, which is obviously not the case. Perhaps from a practical point of view it would be worth measuring something else? For example, in the 70s of the last century, a technique was developed using white noise instead of harmonic signals, it showed excellent agreement with the results of subjective listening tests
@Milo Prager "manipulated" in what way? The frequency response of any DAC, even with the softest FIR filters or in NOS mode, is absolutely flat along the entire range of audible frequencies, but nevertheless we hear the difference between them. IMHO the only useful measurements are the jitter test and the impulse response
@Milo Prager Oh yes, the multitone test - someone really needs to hint to Amir that there is no piece of music consisting of 31 stationary sinusoidal signals. Seriously. Even among the works of Penderecki. But I understand your point, maybe I really strongly prefer one of the four DACs that I have at home solely because of its shiny copper buttons
Two points: The standalone Zidoo DAC with headphone amplifier is more expensive ($700) than the CD player from Emotiva ($649) . The CD player does not have a headphone plug but the DAC does not have a CD transport. I would categorize the Emotiva unit as cheap: - a decent CD transport usually goes around for $1000, sans the DAC. The second point is what if the Emotiva unit is a lemon that the user got? Who knows what happened during the shipping to Amir's laboratory? To me the disconnected ribbon does not speak to the quality of the original unit, how do we know that another unit from Emotiva would be this bad (it is by all accounts). The Zidoo unit was sent to Amir by the manufacturer, otoh. It would be professional malpractice if they send a poorly testing DAC to Amir's lab. It could tank any sales of this newer company.
When comparing the performance of DACs with that of speakers it would seem that DACs have 1/100th the linear and non-linear distortion of most speakers. I guess lots of marketing money has convinced people to spend so much time and money comparing DAC when the result is totally swamped by the errors made by speakers. Lets say you're playing that tone through a DAC with the 2nd harmonic down 135 dB and then it goes to a speaker where the 2nd harmonic produced by the speaker is down 60 dB if you are lucky and not playing too loud. Your completely full of it if you think you can hear the differences between these DACs. Good luck hearing the harmonic that is down 60 dB. Maybe Amir will construct a demo where he plays the 1 kHz tone at listening level in the video and then plays the 2nd harmonic, 2 kHz, 60 dB lower with and with out the 1 kHz tone. Sure. Repeat that at -135 dB. Ha ha ha Great job as always Amir.
You are ignoring the fact that speakers are noiseless. To build a DAC to have no noise at reference levels requires DNR of 115 to 120 dB -- something that only the top DACs in the upper area of blue graph produce. Further, there are people who use DACs in their desktop systems where with headphones are able to hear far more artifacts. In addition, I have measured both speakers and headphones that have SINADs in upper 80s which is the limit of acoustic measurements. The bulk of distortion from transducers is in lower frequencies where our hearing is not very sensitive.
Nice , BUT in your AP555 , you don't show input filter , is it A-weghting , LP filter , butterworth , what BW . It would be nice if you add all these informations for each measurement at the corner. Do you have galvanic isolated USB between your AP555 DAC and PC , it seems that you have common mode problem between PC , DAC and AP555. It show itself at low frequency. You don't show how clipping look like in oscilloscope too. Is it clipping hard ? THD AND SINAD not showing how the DAC sounds R2R DAC has better sound stage , compare to Delta sigma, how you measures that .
That was not the purpose of this video. I wanted to to teach people to quickly read the measurements not becoming measurement people themselves. I have published an entire text article answering everything you mention. See: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/article-understanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/ I don't use galvanic devices in front of AP because you don't have one in front of your amplifier either. However, AP is nice in that its unbalanced inputs are floating. This gives me a chance to test both ways with and without common ground. XLR balanced inputs naturally don't care about ground currents. As to your R2R comment, that is a myth. I can't measure imagination. Come back and show in a blind test that people can hear such differences and I will show you immediately how to measure it
Just had the shocking revelation that typical measurements dont tell the whole story.. I just went from a topping d90 to a ifi pro dsd, wich measures worse according to audiosciencereview, and the difference is night and day better in favor of the ifi, any person could tell... so whats the science behind that?
@Milo Prager wow, u guys are something... its your truth above anyone else's experiences. You know, science is supposed to be a search for truth, not blindly sticking with something despite what others say.. when people believed the earth was flat, lots of scientist also believed that. I believe in measurements, yet I know from experience a better measuring dac wont always sound better than a worse measuring one. The topping d90 sounds flat, and no measurement is going to change that. Just because you cant explain and justify something, does not mean its not true.
I know there are two sides in this situation, the "I love measurements!" and the "I love magic boxes!" groups. I feel that seeing the measurements are important as a starting point. I think it's good to know that a £15000 magic box at least performs at a competent technical level of a magic box costing £200. However, it is still important to remember that whilst a device may measure poorly or oddly...you may still love the sound. My DAC is a iFi that doesnt measure all that well but I really like the sound of it. My other half, she has a Topping DAC I bought her that is textbook...sounds perfectly good to me too. Too many people are polarised. I feel both camps just need to accept that measurements are interesting, but for DACS...not the final word. Now when it comes to 'powerfilters' anyone making those deserves all the vitriol they can get!
@@AudioScienceReview Amir, do you listen to vinyl ? I know it's not going to be as good as digital, but just wondering. I recently got a turntable with a good cartridge and phono stage, I quite enjoy the sound. I have got some of the uhqr pressing, they seem very quiet with regards to noise.
When a comment is his lifetime achievement...Your family must be proud of you, first of them to master alphabet and first to comment on a video...on UA-cam ! 🤣
@@r423fplip Personally no. I have a Reel to Reel that I play from time to time which I enjoy very much. LPs are often mastered so much better than digital that they can sound great. Same is true of Reel to Reel music masters. I test phono stages frequently for these reasons.
115 dB threshold of hearing my butt, good luck hearing noise or distortion at -100 dB or -110 dB, you will go deaf trying to hear that. Threshold of hearing for noise is -5 dB? What?
This video is like a user's manual for the ASR website. Well done, Amir.
A masterclass on DAC measurements. Kudos Amir! The UA-cam algorithm had hidden this little gem from me for one month. Thank you for sharing your vast knowledge and passion.
Your reviews and explanations are always excellent. Your work is greatly appreciated.
man, why have i been watching fashioned reviewer? This man needs a praise 🙌
Excellent insights offered from the Wizard! Thank you.
I've visited your website over the last 2 years and my enjoyment of music has dramatically increased from my first DAC, an Anedio D2, an excellent DAC in its own right, to a Topping E50, using a very low noise powerbank. Your analyses of audio components has brought a tremendous amount transparency and honesty to a market that has survived in the past on slick marketing and dollars spent on magazine advertising. Sunlight is, indeed, the best disinfectent.
Thank you for that!
Thank you so much, for the video & your time, prof! This is that one type of a video idea people will appreciate & a video that, honestly, should have been made a long time ago already to help people (especially the normies (the majority of people) & audiophiles) to understand the measurements way more. Now that we're together changing the world & the whole audio industry from distortion to actual high fidelity, these things are very important to understand!
Great educational video, as usual, Thank you Amir.
I know how to read DAC measurements, but I didn't know exactly how the pink panther rating system worked. So that was good to learn right off the bat.
Ah, I was going to specifically mention that but forgot. Glad you figured it out. :)
You're not the only one. I spend more time trying to interpret what the pose of the panther is trying to convey than comprehending the data in the various graphs!
Thank you. You've made my slogging through all of the opinions and arguing much easier. Head to your review then out the door.
Beatiful, I own a lot of audio things and most of them bought after reading your reviews. Thank you from Italy
Immensely useful video; such a gift to the community. Thank you so much for your reviews and sharing your knowledge!
Awesome info as usual! I am seriously considering the Zidoo Neo Alpha, their top line streamer/DAC/media player. With measurements like you have shown, I am going to pull the trigger! Thanks Amir!
Didn't know the low frequency tones in the jitter test were expected. I managed to learn something :)
非常感謝 Amirm 🙏，如此仔細與耐心的講解，這將大幅提升你的讀者對於閱讀你的量測結果之真正的理解程度。👍
Wonderful video Amir. If possible could you address clock quality at some point? When relatively inexpensive DACs produce jitter below threshold of hearing, what benefit is there to having a fancy temperature-controlled clock and advertising it as a feature worth paying for?
Thanks and great idea for another video! For now, no, you don't need stable clocks. Our hearing is not sensitive to speed of playback. It is sensitive to variation in speed which is jitter.
Excellento! Now I understand all those graphs and their meanings. Would like similar video on headphones measurements, How are they measured and what is measured? How are sound signal to sound measurements done and performance evaluated? Thanks!
Thanks. Yes, I plan to do a video on every class of audio device I measure. Next one will likely be speakers and then shortly follow with headphones.
Love this channel. Keep up the good work Amir.
thx again no 1 audio channel.
Amir! Watching the whole video. on 1.25x speed hahahah. Now i want to check the ranking of my dac against the list at the 30min mark
Great stuff. Any ideas of potential meaningful aspects that influence sound quality that would not show on these tests since a lot of people seem to think so? Why wouldn't time domain be an important angle for testing as many seem to think it is?
For electronics, the only thing that doesn't show up is potential for ground loops that you may have in your system especially if you use unbalanced RCA connections. Other than that, the track record shows that when we declare a DAC transparent, it is so. Where some ambiguity set in, is in headphone and speaker measurements. I will cover these in upcoming videos.
On time domain, no, it has little relevance in the context of these devices. I do show the filtering where such a difference exists from measurement point of view but from audibility, it is not there unless it cuts into frequency response.
@@AudioScienceReview Okay, thanks!
Insightful ...
Damn, as always solid work!
Much appreciated!
Welcome back! You got me worried for a while.... 😉
Thanks. Had software issues. Produced two videos but neither recorded for some reason. They were both very long so set me back as far as motivation. Fortunately got an update to the software and all is well. So I expect to produce more now.
Awesome sauce! More please Sir…
Hi Amir! Love the objective reviews. I was wondering if you could give some advice?
Ive been looking around for a new Amp in my simple Stereo system with little luck so far. Id love something sleek and thought I found it in something like the Rega IO but saw your review and was not impressed. Is there a minimalist Amp around the 500€ range, with a remote and smaller sized footprint that you would recommend? Or would something like the Argon SA1 despite some poor measurements still suffice for an audio enthusiast who wants to hear quality analog and digital audio through some tower speakers?
Amir, Thank you for these informative videos. Can you test Ifi zen dac v2 please ?
Great video but I have a question if I may. You showed SINAD vs Volume Level where on the x axis you have Vrms but in other reviews like for instance the one for Topping D70 Pro Sabre, the X axis is showing Time and there is a 2nd Y axis. How to read this?
I always enjoy seeing your measurements and your choice of panther for a given product. That said, I’d love a way of hiding the panther reveal until I’ve had a chance to read the measurements. Maybe take two pics: DUT alone, and DUT with your choice of panther. Panther pic reveals by clicking spoiler button?
Regardless… Thank you, Amir, for reviewing all these devices, speakers, etc., posting these companion videos, and for hosting & running your incredibly helpful website!
I hear you. :) Originally the panthers were decorations for the product shot. As they formed meaning, I left it that way. Hopefully people still read the review even with the panther giving away the plot.
@@AudioScienceReview I also hope people (and manufacturers) take the time to read the entirety of your reviews. Understanding what is working well and what isn’t working so well on a device is how the whole industry improves. I’ve learned a great deal from your reviews and explanations; thank you! Hope you’re enjoying the sunny day!
Thank you Amir for an excellent video! You had a quick line in this video (paraphrasing) dismissing the musicality of distortion, but so many audiophiles love vinyl, tubes, and dirty amplification (Nelson Pass is a hero). What do you think is going on here? I'd like to hear more about what you meant with that line about distortion.
I think the love for vinyl comes with better mastering than digital. Digital encourages pushing the levels up to near max where the opposite is true of LP. While i am annoyed by LP distortions and noise, most audiophiles learn to ignore them (or don't hear them). After measuring ton of tube products, their distortions are either inaudible to most people, or are annoying to my ears. Hence the comment in the video. What people really like is the mastering, not the distortion.
Great vid! Very clear and practical for a beginner (me).
Learned a lot! FANTASTIC!
Amir, why does AVR or AVP cannot achieve 110 or 120dB SINAD ?
Why are they stuck to 90 range ?
For AVR I could think about bas stuff coming from amp parasiting DAC... But AVP have the same behavior, and they are pricey DAC with a lot of technological stuff inside.
So why cannot AVP reach 110-120 SINAD ?
Hello, i watched the channel of iiwi. He reviews a lot of Dac's and he describes the sound of a dac and the differences in dac's like no other can. He has a preference to R2R dac's but recently he reviewed the Lampizator Baltic 3 dac and it blowed the competition away and it was also his most expensive dac, it has tubes. But he slightly loved the diy Lampizator dac more. Not sure what diy dac, i guess there is only one. It would be great to see this diy dac tested by you. It is also more affordable then the baltic 3. If not possible any other dac from Lampizator would be fine. A lot of people say that Lampizator dac's sounds very different to most dac's.
Thank you, this is terrific! I would also love to see how you do these measurements, e.g. how you connect the analyzer to the DAC/AMP and how to use the software to do all these tests, like a tutorial for a beginner who also wants to do measurements. Cheers!
Good idea. I need to expand my recording setup for a second camera to show the analyzer and such. But will do!
Sir I have a question. I have a Topping DX5 connect into my Mac and I heard a minor audio quality change when switch from DAC mode to PRE mode. Is that in PRE mode Dx5 only amplify the audio signal converted by my Mac's DAC or the signal is DA on DX5 then they add a digital volume after it? Thank you so much sir.
Hello sir how do i check whether my dongle dac is really neutral or not? How do i measure the dacs frequency response, it should be flat right if it is really neutral
That display with the VU meters is grandiose! 👌 Thanks for your work! The DACs is getting more and more in the world...😁
I know you have DAKs RME ADI-2! I have a question: Which one is better for you subjectively in terms of sound on an ESS chip or ASAHI Kassey?
It is so nice to have the VU meters! On your question, I do not find a difference if they are competently implemented (many are).
Great work! Do you have any issues using the Z8 as a preamp (XLR)? Thinking about buying one and use it as a dac/Preamp for my Nad c298
Great educative video! 👍
Thank you again! If only the entire industry and indeed other industries were operated as such!
Thanks Amir for the fantastic video!!!
Hi Amir/all, what is (and the difference between) "Generator Level (dBFS)" and "Measured Level (Vrms)" under the IMD and SINAD vs Measured Level measurements respectively? Are they the level of the digital input signal fed to the device or the output of the device itself whereby 0 is when the device is set to maximum on the physical volume knob or something? *Also Power vs Distortion in the headphone amp section for devices such as all in one audio interfaces, this is really confusing me and I do not know how to get the most/best balance out of the components I have :')
I still don't understand, how come I have an R2R dac that probably measures worse than my eversolo dmp a6 master edition dac and still sounds better, the soundstage and separation are better, bass is more clean and pronounced and voices appear more dense and chesty?
Thank you Amir!
Excellent video!
Excellent presentation!
Neubee question: Are all frequencies have the same inaudible distortions? I mean you fed the DAC with a 1K signal. What would happen if you feed it with different frequency signals?
I run another test that I showed where I sweep all frequencies. Indeed, every device acts differently in that regard. The good thing is that harmonics of 1 kHz land where our hearing is most sensitive So if we are going to pick one frequency, 1 kHz is one of the better ones.
@@AudioScienceReview Thank you. I noticed 🥺I just posted my question too soon at the beginning of watching your video.
Awesome info as always!!! ❤❤❤
Hi Amir! Your video got me thinking: have you ever done (just for fun) a null comparison between a source (music) track and a DAC’s output? Or perhaps between two DACs?
Now I’m not knowledgeable enough about audio, but is it fair assume such a comparison wouldn’t reveal much that the sweep and 32-tone already are? 😺
I was unaware of this Zidoo product, but I have the Neo Alpha which is great especially as most of my use is for the media player with just some music, I wanted better quality and low noise with the dynamics for my home theater. But even the processing on the video with the vs10 looks great and is complemented as frequently as the sound. Just hoping the same care and effort went into Zidoo Neo Alpha. Great review!
As you, I knew of their video products but had not heard at all about their audio. It is definitely a company with excellent engineering.
Hey amir great video. You think you could do one for speaker measurements?
Thanks. Yes, that is planned as the next one to do.
Is it, or would it be implied, for example, that the top 1/2 dozen or so DAC's that you've measured Amir (in the higher end of the "blue") would, because they all measure similarly and have "state of the art" measurements, also likely sound very similar to one another? If I had (putting it another way) an opportunity to audition those same 6 DAC's, could or would it be implied that trying to distinguish between them would probably or even generally be more or less a waste of time? That is, at that level would it only be the general aesthetics that each one has to offer that would be more of the deciding factors assuming I were going to purchase one of the six - or - would whatever exact chip set type/implementation etc., regardless of the state of the art measurements play a factor in sound differences that could be heard in blind testing?
Most definitely. Really, distinguishing any DAC in the blue region (some 50+ DACs) would likely sound the same in almost all cases. So shop based on features, price, etc. once you see the measurements show competence. No reason to just chase top 20 DACs unless the budget allows.
@@AudioScienceReview Thank you.
Thank you Amir from France, the Neo S and my 2nd Zidoo after the UHD 2000 and the marriage of my Neo S with my StormAudio MKII is really excellent in 2.0, 2.1 and 7.1 music such a crystal clear sound and incredible details not to mention the dynamism in music as well as in home cinema. Zidoo deserves to be known.
Great channel no nonsense
I wish you would add more measurements to the amp reviews. What good is better sinad if no one can hear it anymore ... maybe there should be more measurements that incentivise the companies to do better in other areas.
Is there any evidence for which parameters sounds the best.
They all do depending on the level. Fortunately you can get budget DACs with measurements that are below threshold of audibility, letting your content to shine through.
How do you measure noise floor modulation?
IMD test will show it as it is changing the input level. So if the noise floor goes up with level vs not, you will see it there.
EXCELLENT !! Thank you.
Great video!
Hi does it comes with silver version ?
If you mean the DAC, I don't know. You should be able to find out on their wesbite.
@@AudioScienceReview yea noted...
This is nice and all but too much weight is given to measuring reproduction of 1kHz signal.
I suggest more notice is given to Smirnoff's df metric. It is using a sequence of test signals from the simple 1kHz sine, over triangle and square waves to samples of real music to overkill (white noise), measuring and calculating the difference and weighting the score.
There are many DACs that are good at reproducing sine waves but not so good at reproducing complex signals and vice versa, e.g. as shown by HypetheSonics measurements.
Your assumptions there are not correct. Only the dashboard and DNR are 1 kHz. As I explained in the video, IMD is dual tones (60 and 7 kHz), Jitter is a complex sum of 12kHz and 250 Hz, multitone is 32 tones and THD vs frequency is every frequency. DF metric has issues I won't go into now.
@@AudioScienceReview While all those data is presented, only 1kHz SINAD is given a colorful compare chart. That can misled some people to give more weight to the measurement of a borderline case. I'm just suggesting that people, who are interested in a simple, comparable metric check the alternative approach.
So useful!
Everyone reviews Dac’s at all prices points. They talk about how good an inexpensive Dac is. My question how do all of the dac’s compare to the dac in AVR’s.
"I do a review almost every day" The review index must be busted, on the website the latest entries when sorted by date are from September of 2022?
Great video
Thx 👍
Thank you!
I was an accidental complainer, as I didn’t understand the poll at the top was meant to represent the interpretation of the data itself. I thought it reflected opinions of people who experienced the product first hand.
Many people have that impression.
Thanks 👍
should have been a 30 second video explaining the panther system tbh
Often an R2R DAC will have a worse SINAD than a delta Sigma but many people prefer it. Why is that,?
Measurments do not totally translate to how the box actually sounds in your room through your speakers, to your ears etc. etc. The end sound comes down to personal taste, not analyser readouts.
Simple: they don't do a controlled test where only the sound is heard. In sighted tests, anything goes. I can make no change but say that I have and people will say something is better. The distortions in R2R dacs are below detections of people so they don't hear that as an advantage either.
I don't recall covering this in law school, but I am in danger of understanding!
👍👍
When you don’t know how to truly measure performance, what do the measurements you do make really mean?
When you hold up a wet finger to measure wind speed, direction, and humidity level, what is the science behind and objective reproducible accuracy level of your testing approach?
Wow
I see a couple of problems with these measurements, for example it is obvious that absolutely any modern DAC has a level of harmonic distortion WAY below the level of detection. Accordingly, they should all sound the same, which is obviously not the case. Perhaps from a practical point of view it would be worth measuring something else? For example, in the 70s of the last century, a technique was developed using white noise instead of harmonic signals, it showed excellent agreement with the results of subjective listening tests
@Milo Prager "manipulated" in what way? The frequency response of any DAC, even with the softest FIR filters or in NOS mode, is absolutely flat along the entire range of audible frequencies, but nevertheless we hear the difference between them. IMHO the only useful measurements are the jitter test and the impulse response
@Milo Prager Oh yes, the multitone test - someone really needs to hint to Amir that there is no piece of music consisting of 31 stationary sinusoidal signals. Seriously. Even among the works of Penderecki. But I understand your point, maybe I really strongly prefer one of the four DACs that I have at home solely because of its shiny copper buttons
Two points: The standalone Zidoo DAC with headphone amplifier is more expensive ($700) than the CD player from Emotiva ($649) . The CD player does not have a headphone plug but the DAC does not have a CD transport. I would categorize the Emotiva unit as cheap: - a decent CD transport usually goes around for $1000, sans the DAC.
The second point is what if the Emotiva unit is a lemon that the user got? Who knows what happened during the shipping to Amir's laboratory? To me the disconnected ribbon does not speak to the quality of the original unit, how do we know that another unit from Emotiva would be this bad (it is by all accounts). The Zidoo unit was sent to Amir by the manufacturer, otoh. It would be professional malpractice if they send a poorly testing DAC to Amir's lab. It could tank any sales of this newer company.
When comparing the performance of DACs with that of speakers it would seem that DACs have 1/100th the linear and non-linear distortion of most speakers. I guess lots of marketing money has convinced people to spend so much time and money comparing DAC when the result is totally swamped by the errors made by speakers. Lets say you're playing that tone through a DAC with the 2nd harmonic down 135 dB and then it goes to a speaker where the 2nd harmonic produced by the speaker is down 60 dB if you are lucky and not playing too loud. Your completely full of it if you think you can hear the differences between these DACs. Good luck hearing the harmonic that is down 60 dB. Maybe Amir will construct a demo where he plays the 1 kHz tone at listening level in the video and then plays the 2nd harmonic, 2 kHz, 60 dB lower with and with out the 1 kHz tone. Sure. Repeat that at -135 dB. Ha ha ha Great job as always Amir.
You are ignoring the fact that speakers are noiseless. To build a DAC to have no noise at reference levels requires DNR of 115 to 120 dB -- something that only the top DACs in the upper area of blue graph produce. Further, there are people who use DACs in their desktop systems where with headphones are able to hear far more artifacts. In addition, I have measured both speakers and headphones that have SINADs in upper 80s which is the limit of acoustic measurements. The bulk of distortion from transducers is in lower frequencies where our hearing is not very sensitive.
You are not talking too quickly by the way
Nice , BUT in your AP555 , you don't show input filter , is it A-weghting , LP filter , butterworth , what BW . It would be nice if you add all these informations for each measurement at the corner.
Do you have galvanic isolated USB between your AP555 DAC and PC , it seems that you have common mode problem between PC , DAC and AP555. It show itself at low frequency.
You don't show how clipping look like in oscilloscope too. Is it clipping hard ? THD AND SINAD not showing how the DAC sounds R2R DAC has better sound stage , compare to Delta sigma, how you measures that .
Hey Amir, I also hate smart a Alex. they are victims of their own cleverness.
That was not the purpose of this video. I wanted to to teach people to quickly read the measurements not becoming measurement people themselves. I have published an entire text article answering everything you mention. See: www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/article-understanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/
I don't use galvanic devices in front of AP because you don't have one in front of your amplifier either. However, AP is nice in that its unbalanced inputs are floating. This gives me a chance to test both ways with and without common ground. XLR balanced inputs naturally don't care about ground currents.
As to your R2R comment, that is a myth. I can't measure imagination. Come back and show in a blind test that people can hear such differences and I will show you immediately how to measure it
Just had the shocking revelation that typical measurements dont tell the whole story.. I just went from a topping d90 to a ifi pro dsd, wich measures worse according to audiosciencereview, and the difference is night and day better in favor of the ifi, any person could tell... so whats the science behind that?
Any person could tell in a sighted test, but no person could tell in a proper double-blind test...
@@SteelBlueVision Im all for science, but when I say its night and day, its that obvious...
@Milo Prager The difference is very noticable. Its like comparing a tv image with a 3d movie screen...
@Milo Prager wow, u guys are something... its your truth above anyone else's experiences. You know, science is supposed to be a search for truth, not blindly sticking with something despite what others say.. when people believed the earth was flat, lots of scientist also believed that. I believe in measurements, yet I know from experience a better measuring dac wont always sound better than a worse measuring one. The topping d90 sounds flat, and no measurement is going to change that. Just because you cant explain and justify something, does not mean its not true.
I know there are two sides in this situation, the "I love measurements!" and the "I love magic boxes!" groups. I feel that seeing the measurements are important as a starting point. I think it's good to know that a £15000 magic box at least performs at a competent technical level of a magic box costing £200. However, it is still important to remember that whilst a device may measure poorly or oddly...you may still love the sound. My DAC is a iFi that doesnt measure all that well but I really like the sound of it. My other half, she has a Topping DAC I bought her that is textbook...sounds perfectly good to me too. Too many people are polarised. I feel both camps just need to accept that measurements are interesting, but for DACS...not the final word. Now when it comes to 'powerfilters' anyone making those deserves all the vitriol they can get!
First!
You rascal... :)
Good for you. Still, the second mouse gets the cheese.
@@AudioScienceReview Amir, do you listen to vinyl ? I know it's not going to be as good as digital, but just wondering. I recently got a turntable with a good cartridge and phono stage, I quite enjoy the sound. I have got some of the uhqr pressing, they seem very quiet with regards to noise.
When a comment is his lifetime achievement...Your family must be proud of you, first of them to master alphabet and first to comment on a video...on UA-cam ! 🤣
@@r423fplip Personally no. I have a Reel to Reel that I play from time to time which I enjoy very much. LPs are often mastered so much better than digital that they can sound great. Same is true of Reel to Reel music masters. I test phono stages frequently for these reasons.
115 dB threshold of hearing my butt, good luck hearing noise or distortion at -100 dB or -110 dB, you will go deaf trying to hear that.
Threshold of hearing for noise is -5 dB? What?
I am not interested in your backside. But you do need to watch this video where I explain all that: ua-cam.com/video/zTEQmmG6TzE/v-deo.html
@Milo Prager Flaming ignorance is ALWAYS stated with the due conviction it deserves!
Hello there :)