Dude... I've watched 100 videos. You literally have the only video that actually spoke about shimming walls to meet tub, why you cant shim wall because rest of room is 5 foot etc. As if a normal person was going through the thought process. Nice job man. Its not a perfect world and this is great.
Yep. I don't trust using silicone between the CBU and tub flange. The flashing is a great idea that I have used. Also, placing the flashing on the floor near the tub.
13:56 - exactly and it's your insight into what "the real world" looks like is quite valuable. Many times I see videos on UA-cam of how to DIY a project and it turns out perfectly because the channel carefully edits out all of the mistakes, compromises and "real world" conditions they had to work around. For the longest time I thought I was the only one dealing with these imperfections. Hearing a professional talk about this at this level of detail is fantastic.
I actually shimed all my walls and had the cement board proud of the tub. Every other video showed it flush so i thought i was screwed. Thank you for explaining the concept so now i know it's actually a good thing! I also used the water proof tape thanks to this video, what a great idea! Thank you for this fantastic resource!
I’m 43 and I’ve helped out with several bathrooms as a kid. I’ve actually been helping with one this month. I remember the days where you’d simply put up hardi backer and tile, and the work would last for ever. Especially with preventative maintenance as well as normal maintenance. But now a days, this type of work has been made to be so critical. I don’t know if peoples work has gotten sloppier (fast work for fast money), or if water isn’t what it used to be (joking), but now I see people going as far as roofing paper > cement board > tape & mud > red guard > hot mop > tile. Seems like overkill for a job which if done correctly, shouldn’t need all of that. And the interesting thing is that generally when showers / tubs have any sort of water seeping through, it’s usually in an area where preventative maintenance should have been done.
You're correct about much of this, and I don't disagree. I've taken apart 60-70 bathrooms in my career, and almost none of them had water damage in the main "field" of tile. And back in the day they just put up "green board" drywall. If there is damage, it is located where the tile meets the tub because the caulk was not maintained, or the edge of the tub on the floor where water seeped in over a period of years. The reason waterproofing is an obsession these days is due to marketing efforts by companies who sell waterproofing products. For my work, I concentrate on protecting the areas where I have seen damage over the years, which is the edge of the tub or pan on the floor and the area where the tile meets the tub or pan.
I did my shower almost exactly like you did yours. I’ve only done a few showers in my life time but I do some research first and they’ve all turned out great. Thanks for the video.
Your video has answered all the questions I had. I love the way you answered all the questions that a diy person would encounter in a real life situation. Great video 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
My bathroom is set up the same way. Exactly 5 feet from stub wall framing to outside framing, and no insulation at all. The backer board, or schluter, or GoBoard cannot go over the flange. It was driving me nuts! You gave me the answer, and I thank you so much.
What a great idea to use the the flashing! I'm remodeling my bathroom and struggled with how to avoid the backer board having a step to the drywall. Struggle no more after watching this video! Thank you!
Thank you for explaining I was having this issue and no one at home depot was able to help😏. I appreciate your real life scenario. I took all the helpful tips as well. 😁
When you read all those instructions from the MFG. It is always under ideal conditions. Even new construction has butchered lumber that is not all true in size and level. Now you do a remodel after the house has settled some. As he said I work in the real world. Great video, thanks.
Finally found a video explaining the lip!!!! I've done millions of fiberglass shower stalls it's packing that gap with hot mud and flat taping around the whole stall. But that procedure does not require or have tile. Thanks for the video!
Great video. I'm doing my bathroom and after removing the old tub, cut out just enough drywall to get the new tub in. My bathroom layout and ceiling height would mean cutting out and replacing an enormous amount of drywall in order to fir out the studs to ride over the flange. Not happening. It's so important to live in the real world when doing this stuff.
Wow, awesome video! Installing a tub -> shower pan conversion and you answered all the questions I had. Kinda feel like you gave away a lot of secrets! Thanks!
Great video, my walls were far enough out of plumb I was considering shimming with 1/4 backerboard, then adding a second 1/4 inch sheet to bring my plane to the same level as the existing drywall. Originally I had the first shim layer going right up to the flange, then the second went over the flange, but I am going to incorporate your flashing idea now. Thank you again
With regards to the backer board and flang. I usually fill that gap with thin set as a filler and skim it flush with my trowel/taping knife. The tile ends up covering it while also sitting on something firm. Thanks for the flashing tip. Great video.
WOW !! I just love your teaching. Is so artículo used. And so we’ll detailed explained. I’ve learned about 6 months just in one of your videos. Thank you 🙏.
Wow... I literally used window flashing when I did my remodel yesterday... Wife kept making me doubt myself and I can't believe that what I did is what you recommend as a pro contractor. Hahaha! Made me feel redeemed.
Very timely video. I am just starting a bathroom gut and just removed the tile and tub. Tons of great tips. I only have one tip of my own from experience. Don't trust the oring in the tub spout. In both of my bathrooms in the tub spouts a couple of years apart the orings failed. I had cleaned of the copper and chamfered the ends so it didn't nick the orings. The oring did fail after a few years and the water travelled back and down the opening in the tile and thru the ceiling of my renovated kitchen. Now when I install a tub spout I silicone the opening as best I can around the copper where it comes out of the tile.
Do you mean where the spout is attached to the copper stub coming out of the wall? There are some styles which push on, much like a shark bite style coupling. Those have O-rings. The style I prefer requires a male threaded fitting to be soldered on to the pipe stub, then the spout is threaded onto the fitting using teflon tape. I will also seal the opening around the pipe with silicone before installing the spout.
@@enduringcharm 1 Moen tub spout and the other was a Delta. Both had the slip on spout with orings. No where for the water to go when the spout was in shower position so it seemed to shoot back thru the hole in the tile.
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that style. I use a lot of Moen faucets, but the ones I use have the screw on style spout. Possibly the pipe was a little short on your installation and the O-ring couldn't seal? I don't know. Caulking where the pipe comes through the wall is good practice, though.
This is the first video I've seen that deals with real life remodeling issues. Provided amazing hacks to address every issue I've encountered over the years. Thank you so much. I suscribed to your channel.
I had to do a repair couple years ago where the contractor installed the backer board such that the bottom row of tiles fell directly on top of the tub lip so half the tile widths were just hanging over the lip without touching the tub surface....it looked like hell. Fortunately there were 2 things in my favor: the bottom row wasn't full height because the guy cut them in half to sit on the lip and there was a full box of spare tiles in the garage. I carefully removed the bottom row of tiles sitting on the lip. Then I used my angle grinder to remove about half the thickness of 30 new tiles about half way up their full height. When I installed the new tiles they reached all the down to the tub surface because the material that would have prevented that was removed by the grinder. I then caulked the tile to the tub as usual and you would never know how badly the guy screwed up the install. So the bottom line is even if the backer board wasn't installed properly you may not have to rip it out or shim it to get a great tile job. There are ways around other people's incompetence.
I have a mess in my shower! My house has two level. The original builder of my house has the brilliant idea to build the shower drain on the top of floor stud support; they cut the stud to make possible the elbow PVC can connect with the pan and drain system and never seal under the exit under the wood floor with shower pan flange. LEAKING TIME! First time, I let him know is a leaking he don't do nothing until a mold came out drywall. So, my husband take "care" and he did a ______ job!!! Coulking time!. Today, 2022 second time same problem. This time I will take care!! this will be my 7th project around the house. This is the best video that I found!!! The extra effort to do a long-lasting job it's worth it because the reality of life is that a lot of house owner like my husband thing that the house will take care by itself!! Thanks!
Hello John, i am a DYI'er. Really appreciate the practical discussion about imperfect installation conditions such as wall studding, and moisture control between walls beyond the cement hardieboard, and the sheetrock interface. The self adhesive plastic flashing with a 3 foot plastic skirt seems like a good idea too. Maybe that hot mop and custom shower pan isn't necessary for a good seal!
In my mind, the mesh or band is not really used for stability as much as it is part of the theory... meaning that one is using the Hardy board as a solid medium to support the tiles. At any point on that board, there are no cracks as it is solid. Not the case with the joints. Hence, one is simply making a ‘skin’ that covers the cement board joints that mimics the surface of the board itself. That’s how I look at it.
Good advice for the flange to wall board seam......I ALWAYS use 6" self adhesive sheathing/flashing too!....still working off the 67 foot roll I bought about 4 months ago 😊..... that's a lot more tubs/pans I can get out of it!!
Building a shrine to this dude. Echoing everyone else, this video is the best out there for any shower bath install. I’m sure the manufacturers hate that you tell us all these tricks, but damn I just spent $70 on z flashing for the lip and now I know I’ll never need that again!
I usually use concrete backer board, however for my most recent installation I used GoBoard which is an entirely waterproof product. It's a foamboard and easy to modify so I cut a rabbit to fit over the lip of the tub with minimal bending. Silicone around the junction of the tub and the GoBoard and then silicone between the tile and tub.
My issue with lightweight backerboard is that the final installation sounds hollow. It doesn't bother some people, but I like to be able to knock on a wall and have it feel and sound solid.
I've recently been rabbiting the back of the hardiebacker to fit over the lip, set the circular saw to the right depth and then cut a few scoring lines up to 3/4 of an inch from the bottom and then remove with knife and Polish plane. I think I'll stick with that but add the flashing for extra precaution.
@lucas Listen, that's really not a good idea. The health consequences of making that kind of dust with a circular saw and hardibacker (or any cement board) is no joke. Even outdoors you are taking a risk. When I was younger I took all sorts of dumb risks with my health that I now regret. A shower tile job is not worth getting silicosis.
They make shears to cut hardibacker which are essentially dust free. See these videos: ua-cam.com/video/YXCwEvnCTNY/v-deo.html , ua-cam.com/video/JUXBOrwh83I/v-deo.html , ua-cam.com/video/LTtwjKTOPrQ/v-deo.html
The video that keeps on giving. Love your common sense approach and "Real World" insights. this is the most helpful video I've watched after a complete gut of the bathroom. Thank you!
As a DYI project here looking at a new tub, common sense tells me something needs to happen a specific way at the flange. Couldn't find anything until finding your vid. THANKS. I have some of that tar tape from a new back door project. The added protection will be comforting. The tub instructions didn't show any detail for this. Must be a common thing to know for pro's....like the mortar base under the tub for support.
I have several other videos showing installation details you should check out as well. IN fact, one was just published an hour ago you may find helpful!
In recent years I've noticed that the instruction booklets are so generic as to be meaningless. In some cases they are actually wrong. There is no effort anymore to include expert advice or accurate information with products. You bought it, now you're on your own.
Bravo, bravo, bravo!!! Soooo thorough!! You answered every single question I've ever had about tiling over a tub. I am ready to get started. Thank you so much!!
We are remodeling our bathroom. First timers and beginners! Love your videos! So informative! Please tell me you have a link to the next step of the actual tiling onto the backboard and shower base. 🙏🏻
I have a whole playlist of 40 videos about bath remodeling! Probably something there to float your boat: ua-cam.com/play/PLD4oAOZqK9mCjvmw_nUkZBrPPXf_20Lad.html
Thank you for saying ideally the hardibacker would go over the lip. I had measured for that and then saw some videos saying backing should be above the lip. I thought I'd have to cut an inch off each piece again
One of the more informative videos I’ve seen on a remodel situation. My question is, on the method you just showed, how far do you set the tile above the actual tub. It appears there is a small portion of the flange exposed, do you apply thin set below the the backer board in that gap and will it adhere to the exposed flange? Thank you.
You do apply thinset in the flange area, but it is more for back-support to prevent tile cracking than for adhesion to the wall. The first row of tile is adhered to the backerboard over most of it's area, but the section of tile overlapping the flange is not really adhered to anything. The gap between the edge of the tile and the tub surface is the same as your grout line elsewhere, but that gap is filled with a silicone or color-matched tile caulk.
I like your protecto wrap idea. It's worth noting that it is a Butyl flashing and safe to use on plastics. These types of roll membrane flashings come in both modified-asphalt and butyl adhesive. The modified-asphalt types will chemically react with vinyl and plastics (some tubs and surrounds).
I've encountered this situation many times. My fix was/is to notch the framing member to flush the tub/shower base flange with the stud or furring strip, then shim out the opposite (short) wall.
That's a popular solution, but my bath remodels have building permits and inspections. Notching the studs would be rejected by an inspector if caught. And, that still will not help if the plane of both walls is even with the shower or tub alcove, i.e a five foot wide room.
You always go over the lip but never touching the base. Ever. Flashing it is genius level. Wish I had thought of that. I will when I do my primary house! TY!
I would love to see a video on tiling the front of an alcove drop in tub. Your video was exactly what I was looking for and extremely helpful and detailed. Thank you
I have a few videos on tiling shower walls and the process is identical. The only difference is that you need a method of transitioning at the edge. A bullnose edge tile is one option, using a marble top (in sections) is another. Either way I would recommend using the Schluter Kerdi membrane underneath to waterproof the surround.
You are a smart guy. Thank you. I'm installing a tub and was trying to figure out how to really waterproof the tub lip to wall joint. Awesome idea with the window and door flashing. It should come with every new tub.
My tub project looks to be the same condition and layout as yours. I shimm'd the walls around the tub with plywood so the cement board goes over the lip perfectly. The drywall on the same wall plane was also shimmed out so there was no indifference. There was no way the cement board was going to bend over the tub lip which would also create a problem when the door assy is installed leaving a warp condition. Just shim out all walls to make it work.
I doubt I would thought of using flashing to seal the borders, but will from here on. Great tip. As for another idea I think of but haven't done is to place the backer board over the lip leaving an 1/8 th inch gap for caulking. Having the backer board over the lip without shimming (especially using your flashing suggestion) allows a gentle slope generally unnoticeable while further directing the water away from & pooling on the edge. Your thoughts on this theory would be very appreciated.
The self adhesive membrane at the tub gap looks like an excellent idea. Do you have experience or comments regarding Acrylic Tile Adhesives in place of standard Thinset in a tub enclosure. I've used a premixed bucket of acrylic tile adhesive for small jobs like back splashes with good performance. Because the adhesive is acrylic, it creates an additional water proofing barrier between the tile and the cement board, so I suspect there is no need for a roll on membrane such as Red Guard. The acrylic adhesive is more expensive than Thinset, but the cost difference would be offset if the roll on membrane isn't required.
I wouldn't recommend acrylic adhesive for showers and definitely not for tiled shower floors. It's not appropriate for wet areas and also not good for large format tile, which is popular today. I use latex modified thinset, and I use one specifically for large format tile when installing big dimension tile. Thinset is well proven, it can be mixed to different consistency depending on need, it's fine for wet areas, it's easily scratched off if some gets in a grout line, you can refresh it continuously as the day goes on, and it will work with natural stone like marble.
One of the most intelligent explanations!!! Thank you! I often see that a shower pan comes with weeping holes on both sides ( usually in the front of the pan). How do you deal with that? I just don't know why you need weeping holes with now modern waterproofing technology.
I think you are referring to the small depression toward the front edge of many pans, which is designed to allow water to drain back into the pan. Even after tiling there is something of a ledge there, and this gives a path for water. Also, if the homeowner does not maintain the caulking between the pan/tub and tile then this allows any water to drain back. In truth it doesn't have much utility, especially if shower doors are installed. However, in cases of certain shower wall designs, or "inserts," there is no caulk used, and then that drain back area is potentially useful.
Totally agree with your demonstration and explanation. Real world design, yes. Great videos. I’m not sure where the idea came up that the tile backer ‘must’ go over the lip in the first place. Manufacturers, and logic, allow for both methods. I use Denshield, and instructions clearly show tile backer coming down to top of lip. I’ve also checked directions for multiple pans/tubs that clearly show installation methods allowing either to the top or overlap. Sincere question: what benefit could there be to having the backer board come down over the lip? The only water I can imagine is if the caulking was completely gone along the bottom of the tile and the shower water hits the tub and somehow splashes up between the tile gap and back over the lip. Not very likely, but I’ve added your suggestion of the self-stick membrane as redundant insurance. As far as breakage, also seems a minimal risk on a porcelain tile to break in that 3/4” overhang. Great work, thanks.
Over the years I have been on a number of jobs where total catastrophe occurred and water from a shower was leaking to floors below. Several were in second floor condos that leaked into first floor condos and caused an insurance nightmare. In all of these cases, I saw things that should not happen, but did anyway! One was a corner with framing that completely failed, and that opened up a large crack. Naturally, the homeowner just ignored the crack and continued to shower each day! A few others were related to unusual lateral loads or blunt force placed on walls which caused cracks or holes. I'm still not sure if it was fights, or shower sex, or what the hell was going on! In any case, you can't predict what homeowners will do in the future, so I plan for the worst. It's highly unlikely that the flashing system I use will be needed, but it's inexpensive insurance. As for tile sticking below the level of the backerboard bottom, it shouldn't ever be a problem for larger tiles. However, if I'm installing a small 3x6 subway tile, as an example, I'll be a little more cautious about filling the back space with thinset on the bottom row. Having the backerboard extend over the lip is nice for smaller tiles, but it isn't the end of the world if it can't be done.
enduringcharm Yes, point taken. I had situation where window wasn’t originally flashed properly and wall was falling away, water sheeting down inside. Owner only found out got a call from downstairs when their shower leaking from ceiling..! True, when I use small tile I take that into my backer consideration. Though I don’t warranty for shower sex.. 😉
agree with you. As said in the video the bath walls determine if you can do that or not. beyond the length of the tub against the wall it depends on the space you have to work with.
I appreciate your teaching and training very much. QUESTION: Do you apply a coat of thinset to the backer board gap with the flashing at the lip to fill the gap? I am installing a 3X6 Subway tile over a new tub install. Thanks again
If you are using a small format 3x6 tile and you have a significant gap at the lip area you should be cautious. I typically will not use a tile over the gap of the lip unless 2/3 of the tile is adhered to the backerboard itself. See this video: ua-cam.com/video/y3bpE-GhYUM/v-deo.htmlsi=TPcrBfaVYZgN3KaW
In other words, you used hardibacker as a shim? I suppose that could work, but it's an expensive shim. When shimming is a needed option I typically use plywood strips from leftover plywood.
I was glad to see you didn't put plastic all the way up. There is a chance to trap moisture as you say. On the red guard, some moisture will get behind the tile but if you can see the back side of the backer board it's not likely ever going to be noticeably wet unless people spend hours in the shower. There is less chance of mold if you use red guard though. Great idea using flashing tape.
Exactly--the plastic is just an extended flashing, not a vapor barrier. If I need a completely waterproof installation I'll use the Schluter system not Redguard. However, mold is really not an issue with hardibacker. Mold needs moisture and organic material for food in order to grow. The paper-faced drywall from yesteryear could provide that food, but the inorganic compounds in the hardibacker cannot.
I wanted my husband to use the credit board fiber mesh on her Hardy backer board and he said nobody does that. Well I just found a person that does! thank you for existing because you are creative just like I am and engineering wise it would work just because it's not the same brand or whatever it doesn't matter if it works it works.
Great video, like how you address all the limitations, personally I like using pl marine thru hull behind my mesh tape and at the base. Might be adding your flashing step. I do a lot of glass doors on completion (wayfair). Point being if you go over the flange and don't address the wall being plumb you end up with a lot more mud behind the tile and that affects how many courses you can set.
I stopped installing shower doors several years ago because the quality had become so poor. From bad designs to manufacturing flaws, I was spending too much time trying to make bad products work. Now I have homeowners work with a local glass company for custom doors. The quality is better and any concerns about fit are gone.
@sunny meadows You mean the flashing or plastic installed under the edge of the tub apron? No, that's very thin. The backerboard is installed over the flashing. Then the tile is adhered to the backerboard. The flashing is just there to prevent weeping moisture from rotting out the floor over time.
A lot of insightful Info and thank you . One point to consider .The Sure seal / Ice water you use at Tub Lip / Flange . as to catch any moisture /water that could drip down .That's made so nothing sticks to it .Plastic/vinyl top .Will the thin set / tile mastic/grout come loose after awhile from tub vibration , temperature changes etc.. because it will not get good adhesion to it ??
Remember, thinset will also not stick to the tub or pan flange either! Those are made of porcelain or various plastics and the thinset has no better adhesion there. See this video for more info: ua-cam.com/video/y3bpE-GhYUM/v-deo.html
An alternative to shims or floating the face of the backerboard is to thinset the studs then put up your backerboard and plumb/level/square the backerboard with the screws. Don't over tighten your screws or you'll squish out the thinset. Once thinset dries snug up the screws. This will leave a nice clean surface to lay tile.
Yeah, I've seen others using this technique, but I'm not a fan. Wood, including studs, will expand and contract with seasonal changes in humidity. This is especially true in areas with cold winters and heating systems. In time I fear the thinset could drop away, leaving gaps. I'd prefer to have solid wood, attached in multiple places, which cannot drop away.
That stuff is awesome. It's sold as carpet and flooring protection, but I've used it as protection in bathrooms and kitchens. Some brands have a more aggressive adhesive than others, so always test before you lay it over something important.
This was so helpful. Once i install the flashing and I bring the backer board down to the top of the shower pan lip, what should I fill that space with between the backboard and pan lip? Silicone? Thin set since I’ll be tiling?
What a great video, thank you! I like the detail and emphasis you place on the flashing, but that raises a question for me; if you have the flashing in place, then why can't you bring the backer board down to butt up on top of the lip and use silicone to seal it? It's already waterproofed now, right? As mentioned @4:27.
Well, you can and sometime you must install the backer on top of the lip. But, if you can install it over the lip then the tile will have backing all the way down to the tub or pan surface rather than there being a space to be filled.
Flashing tape on the tub flange solves my problem. Thank you. In addition the tub manufacturer recommends that the cement board sits ON TOP of the flange. As we know this is potentially an avenue for water intrusion into the wall cavity. I do ask why the tub manufacturer recommends cement board to top of flange? Can they be idiots as some pros suggest? Or does it have to do with tub to tile sealant failure and wicking into cement board that is installed overlapping the tub flange. I like your method.
I'm using Zip system stretch tape these days, which works very well. The reason some tub manufacturers recommend sitting on top of the flange is because they have no care about anything except their own product. Wicking is a non-issue if the tile is done correctly. I've taken apart 60-70 bathrooms, many of which had drywall sitting on the tub, over the flange. As long as the caulk and grout was maintained it was just fine. But, the flashing would prevent any damage from wicking anyway.
27 years in the trade, never thought about using protecto wrap to flash the tube, Excellent idea!!! Learn something new every day. Thanks
These days I actually prefer the Zip system stretchy tape because it conforms to almost any profile, but it's the same idea.
Dude... I've watched 100 videos. You literally have the only video that actually spoke about shimming walls to meet tub, why you cant shim wall because rest of room is 5 foot etc. As if a normal person was going through the thought process. Nice job man. Its not a perfect world and this is great.
This flashing idea is freaking GENIUS!!! You’re the only one I’ve seen do this!!! THANK YOU!!!!! 👏👏👏
Yep. I don't trust using silicone between the CBU and tub flange. The flashing is a great idea that I have used. Also, placing the flashing on the floor near the tub.
This is nothing new. Old school carpenters use to use pc of metal flashing before peel n stick. Carpenters know 🤣
I have done many tub surrounds over a 25 year period. This methodology is sound and very well explained.
13:56 - exactly and it's your insight into what "the real world" looks like is quite valuable. Many times I see videos on UA-cam of how to DIY a project and it turns out perfectly because the channel carefully edits out all of the mistakes, compromises and "real world" conditions they had to work around. For the longest time I thought I was the only one dealing with these imperfections. Hearing a professional talk about this at this level of detail is fantastic.
Yes, the real world is messy and full of surprises. I often say that remodeling is a series of compromises.
I actually shimed all my walls and had the cement board proud of the tub. Every other video showed it flush so i thought i was screwed. Thank you for explaining the concept so now i know it's actually a good thing! I also used the water proof tape thanks to this video, what a great idea! Thank you for this fantastic resource!
I’m 43 and I’ve helped out with several bathrooms as a kid. I’ve actually been helping with one this month. I remember the days where you’d simply put up hardi backer and tile, and the work would last for ever. Especially with preventative maintenance as well as normal maintenance.
But now a days, this type of work has been made to be so critical. I don’t know if peoples work has gotten sloppier (fast work for fast money), or if water isn’t what it used to be (joking), but now I see people going as far as roofing paper > cement board > tape & mud > red guard > hot mop > tile.
Seems like overkill for a job which if done correctly, shouldn’t need all of that.
And the interesting thing is that generally when showers / tubs have any sort of water seeping through, it’s usually in an area where preventative maintenance should have been done.
You're correct about much of this, and I don't disagree. I've taken apart 60-70 bathrooms in my career, and almost none of them had water damage in the main "field" of tile. And back in the day they just put up "green board" drywall. If there is damage, it is located where the tile meets the tub because the caulk was not maintained, or the edge of the tub on the floor where water seeped in over a period of years. The reason waterproofing is an obsession these days is due to marketing efforts by companies who sell waterproofing products. For my work, I concentrate on protecting the areas where I have seen damage over the years, which is the edge of the tub or pan on the floor and the area where the tile meets the tub or pan.
I did my shower almost exactly like you did yours. I’ve only done a few showers in my life time but I do some research first and they’ve all turned out great. Thanks for the video.
Incredible amount of insight and experience. Remodeling is nothing but compromise. Thank you for the effort and useful information.
Your video has answered all the questions I had.
I love the way you answered all the questions that a diy person would encounter in a real life situation.
Great video 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
My bathroom is set up the same way. Exactly 5 feet from stub wall framing to outside framing, and no insulation at all. The backer board, or schluter, or GoBoard cannot go over the flange. It was driving me nuts! You gave me the answer, and I thank you so much.
What a great idea to use the the flashing! I'm remodeling my bathroom and struggled with how to avoid the backer board having a step to the drywall. Struggle no more after watching this video! Thank you!
These days I'm happiest with the Zip System Stretch Tape for the flashing, which easily conforms to different shapes.
Extreme words of wisdom: "Remodeling often means compromsing and making judgement calls."
And a whole lot of cursing at times.
Thank you for explaining I was having this issue and no one at home depot was able to help😏. I appreciate your real life scenario. I took all the helpful tips as well. 😁
You sir are a hero! All I see is your hand in the video and I want to shake it for such a through tutorial.
When you read all those instructions from the MFG. It is always under ideal conditions. Even new construction has butchered lumber that is not all true in size and level. Now you do a remodel after the house has settled some. As he said I work in the real world. Great video, thanks.
Finally found a video explaining the lip!!!! I've done millions of fiberglass shower stalls it's packing that gap with hot mud and flat taping around the whole stall. But that procedure does not require or have tile. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for the thorough explanation. I'm in"the real world" with you.
Great video. I'm doing my bathroom and after removing the old tub, cut out just enough drywall to get the new tub in. My bathroom layout and ceiling height would mean cutting out and replacing an enormous amount of drywall in order to fir out the studs to ride over the flange. Not happening. It's so important to live in the real world when doing this stuff.
Wow, awesome video! Installing a tub -> shower pan conversion and you answered all the questions I had.
Kinda feel like you gave away a lot of secrets!
Thanks!
Great video, my walls were far enough out of plumb I was considering shimming with 1/4 backerboard, then adding a second 1/4 inch sheet to bring my plane to the same level as the existing drywall. Originally I had the first shim layer going right up to the flange, then the second went over the flange, but I am going to incorporate your flashing idea now.
Thank you again
With regards to the backer board and flang. I usually fill that gap with thin set as a filler and skim it flush with my trowel/taping knife. The tile ends up covering it while also sitting on something firm. Thanks for the flashing tip. Great video.
I actually have a whole video on that subject: ua-cam.com/video/y3bpE-GhYUM/v-deo.html
WOW !! I just love your teaching. Is so artículo used. And so we’ll detailed explained. I’ve learned about 6 months just in one of your videos. Thank you 🙏.
Glad it was helpful!
Wow... I literally used window flashing when I did my remodel yesterday... Wife kept making me doubt myself and I can't believe that what I did is what you recommend as a pro contractor. Hahaha! Made me feel redeemed.
Nicely done video. Great explanation on how to overcome various issues. Your self adhesive flashing idea is damn near genius. Never seen that before.
Your videos answer my level of thinking. I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing but thank you so much!
That’s what I’m talking about - all these videos this guy, The Real Deal 👍🏼🥩🥓
Really great explanations, super clear, to the point, and concise. Thank you for taking the time to explain how things work "in the real world"
Excellent! Real world is where we live so I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts, reasoning, and methods! 👍
Very timely video. I am just starting a bathroom gut and just removed the tile and tub. Tons of great tips. I only have one tip of my own from experience. Don't trust the oring in the tub spout. In both of my bathrooms in the tub spouts a couple of years apart the orings failed. I had cleaned of the copper and chamfered the ends so it didn't nick the orings. The oring did fail after a few years and the water travelled back and down the opening in the tile and thru the ceiling of my renovated kitchen. Now when I install a tub spout I silicone the opening as best I can around the copper where it comes out of the tile.
Do you mean where the spout is attached to the copper stub coming out of the wall? There are some styles which push on, much like a shark bite style coupling. Those have O-rings. The style I prefer requires a male threaded fitting to be soldered on to the pipe stub, then the spout is threaded onto the fitting using teflon tape. I will also seal the opening around the pipe with silicone before installing the spout.
@@enduringcharm 1 Moen tub spout and the other was a Delta. Both had the slip on spout with orings. No where for the water to go when the spout was in shower position so it seemed to shoot back thru the hole in the tile.
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of that style. I use a lot of Moen faucets, but the ones I use have the screw on style spout. Possibly the pipe was a little short on your installation and the O-ring couldn't seal? I don't know. Caulking where the pipe comes through the wall is good practice, though.
I like your water proofing method around the tub flange. Good insurance.
This is the first video I've seen that deals with real life remodeling issues. Provided amazing hacks to address every issue I've encountered over the years. Thank you so much. I suscribed to your channel.
I had to do a repair couple years ago where the contractor installed the backer board such that the bottom row of tiles fell directly on top of the tub lip so half the tile widths were just hanging over the lip without touching the tub surface....it looked like hell. Fortunately there were 2 things in my favor: the bottom row wasn't full height because the guy cut them in half to sit on the lip and there was a full box of spare tiles in the garage. I carefully removed the bottom row of tiles sitting on the lip. Then I used my angle grinder to remove about half the thickness of 30 new tiles about half way up their full height. When I installed the new tiles they reached all the down to the tub surface because the material that would have prevented that was removed by the grinder. I then caulked the tile to the tub as usual and you would never know how badly the guy screwed up the install. So the bottom line is even if the backer board wasn't installed properly you may not have to rip it out or shim it to get a great tile job. There are ways around other people's incompetence.
Man oh man, after about 20 other videos, you answered my question about stopping at the flange or going over it! Thank you.
I have a mess in my shower! My house has two level. The original builder of my house has the brilliant idea to build the shower drain on the top of floor stud support; they cut the stud to make possible the elbow PVC can connect with the pan and drain system and never seal under the exit under the wood floor with shower pan flange. LEAKING TIME! First time, I let him know is a leaking he don't do nothing until a mold came out drywall. So, my husband take "care" and he did a ______ job!!! Coulking time!. Today, 2022 second time same problem. This time I will take care!! this will be my 7th project around the house. This is the best video that I found!!! The extra effort to do a long-lasting job it's worth it because the reality of life is that a lot of house owner like my husband thing that the house will take care by itself!! Thanks!
Hello John, i am a DYI'er. Really appreciate the practical discussion about imperfect installation conditions such as wall studding, and moisture control between walls beyond the cement hardieboard, and the sheetrock interface. The self adhesive plastic flashing with a 3 foot plastic skirt seems like a good idea too. Maybe that hot mop and custom shower pan isn't necessary for a good seal!
Amen brother!
In my mind, the mesh or band is not really used for stability as much as it is part of the theory... meaning that one is using the Hardy board as a solid medium to support the tiles. At any point on that board, there are no cracks as it is solid. Not the case with the joints. Hence, one is simply making a ‘skin’ that covers the cement board joints that mimics the surface of the board itself. That’s how I look at it.
Good advice for the flange to wall board seam......I ALWAYS use 6" self adhesive sheathing/flashing too!....still working off the 67 foot roll I bought about 4 months ago 😊..... that's a lot more tubs/pans I can get out of it!!
The protecto part is genius. I'm glad I found this video!
Lately I've been favoring Zip System Stretch Tape, which easily conforms to curves and sticks tenaciously.
Using good judgment. That's when the experience comes in. Nice.
Best real world help video I have ever seen on this topic.
Thanks for a very useful explanation. As the "repair guy" in my home, professional videos like this save me from disaster or redoing the job.
This is the best video I have seen and I have watched a lot, you have answered most of my questions.
Building a shrine to this dude. Echoing everyone else, this video is the best out there for any shower bath install. I’m sure the manufacturers hate that you tell us all these tricks, but damn I just spent $70 on z flashing for the lip and now I know I’ll never need that again!
Thanks so much, appreciate the sage advice. I am putting up my shower walls either tomorrow or Thursday. Wish me luck.
Awesome video. You covered every aspect I had questions about. Definitely the most productive 16 minutes of my project.
Triple thanks for the flashing idea! Have a job this week in an old home bathroom remodel where this will work like a charm.
I usually use concrete backer board, however for my most recent installation I used GoBoard which is an entirely waterproof product. It's a foamboard and easy to modify so I cut a rabbit to fit over the lip of the tub with minimal bending. Silicone around the junction of the tub and the GoBoard and then silicone between the tile and tub.
My issue with lightweight backerboard is that the final installation sounds hollow. It doesn't bother some people, but I like to be able to knock on a wall and have it feel and sound solid.
I've recently been rabbiting the back of the hardiebacker to fit over the lip, set the circular saw to the right depth and then cut a few scoring lines up to 3/4 of an inch from the bottom and then remove with knife and Polish plane. I think I'll stick with that but add the flashing for extra precaution.
@lucas Listen, that's really not a good idea. The health consequences of making that kind of dust with a circular saw and hardibacker (or any cement board) is no joke. Even outdoors you are taking a risk. When I was younger I took all sorts of dumb risks with my health that I now regret. A shower tile job is not worth getting silicosis.
@@enduringcharm how do you cut your hardi then? no matter what when you are cutting hardi backer you are going to generate a good amount of dust.
They make shears to cut hardibacker which are essentially dust free. See these videos: ua-cam.com/video/YXCwEvnCTNY/v-deo.html , ua-cam.com/video/JUXBOrwh83I/v-deo.html , ua-cam.com/video/LTtwjKTOPrQ/v-deo.html
The video that keeps on giving. Love your common sense approach and "Real World" insights. this is the most helpful video I've watched after a complete gut of the bathroom. Thank you!
As a DYI project here looking at a new tub, common sense tells me something needs to happen a specific way at the flange. Couldn't find anything until finding your vid. THANKS. I have some of that tar tape from a new back door project. The added protection will be comforting. The tub instructions didn't show any detail for this. Must be a common thing to know for pro's....like the mortar base under the tub for support.
I have several other videos showing installation details you should check out as well. IN fact, one was just published an hour ago you may find helpful!
What a great and educational video! So detailed and such logical non-standard tips for tough situations. Thank you so much!
Great video. It seems like every time I read the manufactures instructions my first thought is “ well that’s not happening”
In recent years I've noticed that the instruction booklets are so generic as to be meaningless. In some cases they are actually wrong. There is no effort anymore to include expert advice or accurate information with products. You bought it, now you're on your own.
I usually fill with mortar then do membrane over that, either kerdi or Redford or ardex 8+9. Havent had a call back yet lol
Finally a video that explains these things! So helpful for a DIY’er like myself. Great tips here!
Your the best I’ve seen on utube. Your experience is easy to see and you explain the job fantastic.
Bravo, bravo, bravo!!! Soooo thorough!! You answered every single question I've ever had about tiling over a tub. I am ready to get started. Thank you so much!!
We are remodeling our bathroom. First timers and beginners! Love your videos! So informative! Please tell me you have a link to the next step of the actual tiling onto the backboard and shower base. 🙏🏻
I have a whole playlist of 40 videos about bath remodeling! Probably something there to float your boat: ua-cam.com/play/PLD4oAOZqK9mCjvmw_nUkZBrPPXf_20Lad.html
Thank you for saying ideally the hardibacker would go over the lip. I had measured for that and then saw some videos saying backing should be above the lip. I thought I'd have to cut an inch off each piece again
One of the more informative videos I’ve seen on a remodel situation. My question is, on the method you just showed, how far do you set the tile above the actual tub. It appears there is a small portion of the flange exposed, do you apply thin set below the the backer board in that gap and will it adhere to the exposed flange? Thank you.
You do apply thinset in the flange area, but it is more for back-support to prevent tile cracking than for adhesion to the wall. The first row of tile is adhered to the backerboard over most of it's area, but the section of tile overlapping the flange is not really adhered to anything. The gap between the edge of the tile and the tub surface is the same as your grout line elsewhere, but that gap is filled with a silicone or color-matched tile caulk.
Excellent question!
Thanks. Exact issue I’m having with my remodeling . Subscribed
Awesome video! Clear and concise explanation of everything. This is the best video I've seen on the subject thank you
I like your protecto wrap idea. It's worth noting that it is a Butyl flashing and safe to use on plastics. These types of roll membrane flashings come in both modified-asphalt and butyl adhesive. The modified-asphalt types will chemically react with vinyl and plastics (some tubs and surrounds).
These days I use Zip System stretch tape, which is widely available and easily conforms to various shapes.
I've encountered this situation many times. My fix was/is to notch the framing member to flush the tub/shower base flange with the stud or furring strip, then shim out the opposite (short) wall.
That's a popular solution, but my bath remodels have building permits and inspections. Notching the studs would be rejected by an inspector if caught. And, that still will not help if the plane of both walls is even with the shower or tub alcove, i.e a five foot wide room.
You sir, are a true craftsman
You always go over the lip but never touching the base. Ever. Flashing it is genius level. Wish I had thought of that. I will when I do my primary house! TY!
Thank you for this video it has provided a great deal of helpful information for someone just learning to do home Reno’s.😊
Very well explained I was gona put shims but hard to skim half inch and hide it. Thank you
I would love to see a video on tiling the front of an alcove drop in tub. Your video was exactly what I was looking for and extremely helpful and detailed. Thank you
I have a few videos on tiling shower walls and the process is identical. The only difference is that you need a method of transitioning at the edge. A bullnose edge tile is one option, using a marble top (in sections) is another. Either way I would recommend using the Schluter Kerdi membrane underneath to waterproof the surround.
Thank you!
The roof flashing is brilliant 😊
You are a smart guy. Thank you. I'm installing a tub and was trying to figure out how to really waterproof the tub lip to wall joint. Awesome idea with the window and door flashing. It should come with every new tub.
Glad I could help!
Thanks for the thorough explanation. Very well reasoned. Appreciate the extra steps in ensuring a lasting waterproof installation.
This is a great video, this is the first time I have seen this method and I really like it.
Excellent explanation on how and why to do it this way!
My tub project looks to be the same condition and layout as yours. I shimm'd the walls around the tub with plywood so the cement board goes over the lip perfectly. The drywall on the same wall plane was also shimmed out so there was no indifference. There was no way the cement board was going to bend over the tub lip which would also create a problem when the door assy is installed leaving a warp condition. Just shim out all walls to make it work.
Excellent video. I'm right in the midst of this job and you've answered all of my questions.
Wow! So informative in only 15 min!!! Thank you sir
Excelent video! Very thorough. I needed this. Learning before I begin. Thanks
Great idea with the self adhesive window flashing behind the hardie and over the tub flange thanks !
I doubt I would thought of using flashing to seal the borders, but will from here on. Great tip. As for another idea I think of but haven't done is to place the backer board over the lip leaving an 1/8 th inch gap for caulking. Having the backer board over the lip without shimming (especially using your flashing suggestion) allows a gentle slope generally unnoticeable while further directing the water away from & pooling on the edge. Your thoughts on this theory would be very appreciated.
If you allow the walls to slope at the bottom you'll find yourself in a pickle when you go to fit a glass shower door.
@@enduringcharmLOL, its probably why I havent done it . Thanks
The self adhesive membrane at the tub gap looks like an excellent idea. Do you have experience or comments regarding Acrylic Tile Adhesives in place of standard Thinset in a tub enclosure. I've used a premixed bucket of acrylic tile adhesive for small jobs like back splashes with good performance. Because the adhesive is acrylic, it creates an additional water proofing barrier between the tile and the cement board, so I suspect there is no need for a roll on membrane such as Red Guard. The acrylic adhesive is more expensive than Thinset, but the cost difference would be offset if the roll on membrane isn't required.
I wouldn't recommend acrylic adhesive for showers and definitely not for tiled shower floors. It's not appropriate for wet areas and also not good for large format tile, which is popular today. I use latex modified thinset, and I use one specifically for large format tile when installing big dimension tile. Thinset is well proven, it can be mixed to different consistency depending on need, it's fine for wet areas, it's easily scratched off if some gets in a grout line, you can refresh it continuously as the day goes on, and it will work with natural stone like marble.
@@enduringcharm Thanks for experience and advise. I'll restrict the bucket of acrylic adhesive for back splashes and small feature tiles.
One of the most intelligent explanations!!! Thank you! I often see that a shower pan comes with weeping holes on both sides ( usually in the front of the pan). How do you deal with that? I just don't know why you need weeping holes with now modern waterproofing technology.
I think you are referring to the small depression toward the front edge of many pans, which is designed to allow water to drain back into the pan. Even after tiling there is something of a ledge there, and this gives a path for water. Also, if the homeowner does not maintain the caulking between the pan/tub and tile then this allows any water to drain back. In truth it doesn't have much utility, especially if shower doors are installed. However, in cases of certain shower wall designs, or "inserts," there is no caulk used, and then that drain back area is potentially useful.
Great video putting tile above shower surround wasn't sure about backer board and lip also like use of flashing Thanks
ABSOLUTELY AWESOME! GREAT EXPLANATION. VERY EASY TO UNDERSTAND. THANK YOU SIR!😇
Totally agree with your demonstration and explanation. Real world design, yes. Great videos.
I’m not sure where the idea came up that the tile backer ‘must’ go over the lip in the first place. Manufacturers, and logic, allow for both methods. I use Denshield, and instructions clearly show tile backer coming down to top of lip. I’ve also checked directions for multiple pans/tubs that clearly show installation methods allowing either to the top or overlap.
Sincere question: what benefit could there be to having the backer board come down over the lip? The only water I can imagine is if the caulking was completely gone along the bottom of the tile and the shower water hits the tub and somehow splashes up between the tile gap and back over the lip. Not very likely, but I’ve added your suggestion of the self-stick membrane as redundant insurance. As far as breakage, also seems a minimal risk on a porcelain tile to break in that 3/4” overhang. Great work, thanks.
Over the years I have been on a number of jobs where total catastrophe occurred and water from a shower was leaking to floors below. Several were in second floor condos that leaked into first floor condos and caused an insurance nightmare. In all of these cases, I saw things that should not happen, but did anyway! One was a corner with framing that completely failed, and that opened up a large crack. Naturally, the homeowner just ignored the crack and continued to shower each day! A few others were related to unusual lateral loads or blunt force placed on walls which caused cracks or holes. I'm still not sure if it was fights, or shower sex, or what the hell was going on! In any case, you can't predict what homeowners will do in the future, so I plan for the worst. It's highly unlikely that the flashing system I use will be needed, but it's inexpensive insurance. As for tile sticking below the level of the backerboard bottom, it shouldn't ever be a problem for larger tiles. However, if I'm installing a small 3x6 subway tile, as an example, I'll be a little more cautious about filling the back space with thinset on the bottom row. Having the backerboard extend over the lip is nice for smaller tiles, but it isn't the end of the world if it can't be done.
enduringcharm Yes, point taken. I had situation where window wasn’t originally flashed properly and wall was falling away, water sheeting down inside. Owner only found out got a call from downstairs when their shower leaking from ceiling..! True, when I use small tile I take that into my backer consideration. Though I don’t warranty for shower sex.. 😉
agree with you. As said in the video the bath walls determine if you can do that or not. beyond the length of the tub against the wall it depends on the space you have to work with.
About to do this job. Your flashing trick is genius.
Very well done video. Your experience serves your clients well.
I appreciate your teaching and training very much. QUESTION: Do you apply a coat of thinset to the backer board gap with the flashing at the lip to fill the gap? I am installing a 3X6 Subway tile over a new tub install. Thanks again
If you are using a small format 3x6 tile and you have a significant gap at the lip area you should be cautious. I typically will not use a tile over the gap of the lip unless 2/3 of the tile is adhered to the backerboard itself. See this video: ua-cam.com/video/y3bpE-GhYUM/v-deo.htmlsi=TPcrBfaVYZgN3KaW
Yours is the best yet, like a roof, water goes down., the drywall shims are best. Manards sells them.
My last shower, I installed 1/4 inch Hardy backer to the tile phalange and then another layer of 1/4 inch over that down to the top of the shower pan.
In other words, you used hardibacker as a shim? I suppose that could work, but it's an expensive shim. When shimming is a needed option I typically use plywood strips from leftover plywood.
I just had this question in my head and your video popped up. So helpful thanks 😊
I was glad to see you didn't put plastic all the way up. There is a chance to trap moisture as you say. On the red guard, some moisture will get behind the tile but if you can see the back side of the backer board it's not likely ever going to be noticeably wet unless people spend hours in the shower. There is less chance of mold if you use red guard though. Great idea using flashing tape.
Exactly--the plastic is just an extended flashing, not a vapor barrier. If I need a completely waterproof installation I'll use the Schluter system not Redguard. However, mold is really not an issue with hardibacker. Mold needs moisture and organic material for food in order to grow. The paper-faced drywall from yesteryear could provide that food, but the inorganic compounds in the hardibacker cannot.
I wanted my husband to use the credit board fiber mesh on her Hardy backer board and he said nobody does that. Well I just found a person that does! thank you for existing because you are creative just like I am and engineering wise it would work just because it's not the same brand or whatever it doesn't matter if it works it works.
Great video, like how you address all the limitations, personally I like using pl marine thru hull behind my mesh tape and at the base. Might be adding your flashing step. I do a lot of glass doors on completion (wayfair). Point being if you go over the flange and don't address the wall being plumb you end up with a lot more mud behind the tile and that affects how many courses you can set.
I stopped installing shower doors several years ago because the quality had become so poor. From bad designs to manufacturing flaws, I was spending too much time trying to make bad products work. Now I have homeowners work with a local glass company for custom doors. The quality is better and any concerns about fit are gone.
doesnt the flashing around the base of the tub affect the flooring installation?
@sunny meadows You mean the flashing or plastic installed under the edge of the tub apron? No, that's very thin. The backerboard is installed over the flashing. Then the tile is adhered to the backerboard. The flashing is just there to prevent weeping moisture from rotting out the floor over time.
Thank you so much doing my first tile shower surround. This helped in the questions I had
A lot of insightful Info and thank you . One point to consider .The Sure seal / Ice water you use at Tub Lip / Flange . as to catch any moisture /water that could drip down .That's made so nothing sticks to it .Plastic/vinyl top .Will the thin set / tile mastic/grout come loose after awhile from tub vibration , temperature changes etc.. because it will not get good adhesion to it ??
Remember, thinset will also not stick to the tub or pan flange either! Those are made of porcelain or various plastics and the thinset has no better adhesion there. See this video for more info: ua-cam.com/video/y3bpE-GhYUM/v-deo.html
An alternative to shims or floating the face of the backerboard is to thinset the studs then put up your backerboard and plumb/level/square the backerboard with the screws. Don't over tighten your screws or you'll squish out the thinset. Once thinset dries snug up the screws. This will leave a nice clean surface to lay tile.
Yeah, I've seen others using this technique, but I'm not a fan. Wood, including studs, will expand and contract with seasonal changes in humidity. This is especially true in areas with cold winters and heating systems. In time I fear the thinset could drop away, leaving gaps. I'd prefer to have solid wood, attached in multiple places, which cannot drop away.
Grats on how you protected the tub!
That stuff is awesome. It's sold as carpet and flooring protection, but I've used it as protection in bathrooms and kitchens. Some brands have a more aggressive adhesive than others, so always test before you lay it over something important.
This was so helpful. Once i install the flashing and I bring the backer board down to the top of the shower pan lip, what should I fill that space with between the backboard and pan lip? Silicone? Thin set since I’ll be tiling?
See this: ua-cam.com/video/y3bpE-GhYUM/v-deo.htmlsi=PuvZoY4FlyvgSEq4
What a great video, thank you! I like the detail and emphasis you place on the flashing, but that raises a question for me; if you have the flashing in place, then why can't you bring the backer board down to butt up on top of the lip and use silicone to seal it? It's already waterproofed now, right? As mentioned @4:27.
Well, you can and sometime you must install the backer on top of the lip. But, if you can install it over the lip then the tile will have backing all the way down to the tub or pan surface rather than there being a space to be filled.
Flashing tape on the tub flange solves my problem. Thank you. In addition the tub manufacturer recommends that the cement board sits ON TOP of the flange. As we know this is potentially an avenue for water intrusion into the wall cavity. I do ask why the tub manufacturer recommends cement board to top of flange? Can they be idiots as some pros suggest? Or does it have to do with tub to tile sealant failure and wicking into cement board that is installed overlapping the tub flange. I like your method.
I'm using Zip system stretch tape these days, which works very well. The reason some tub manufacturers recommend sitting on top of the flange is because they have no care about anything except their own product. Wicking is a non-issue if the tile is done correctly. I've taken apart 60-70 bathrooms, many of which had drywall sitting on the tub, over the flange. As long as the caulk and grout was maintained it was just fine. But, the flashing would prevent any damage from wicking anyway.