So who do you think is lying, Saadia or Kematu? 🐫 discord.gg/XDGWm72 🐫 twitter.com/Camelworks 🐫 instagram.com/camelworks_official/ 🐫 www.twitch.tv/camelworks 🐫 facebook.com/camelworks/ 🐫 ua-cam.com/users/camelworks 🐫 www.patreon.com/Camelworks 🏰 Elder Scrolls Detective - goo.gl/ah5OBI
@@peep0705 Valid point, but that's what I mean. If they were truly assassins like she claimed, they wouldnt have been caught. They did things legally, because she was lying and they're not assassins
@@xCJx555 I mean it's not impossible for assassins to be captured, they could have sent one to sneak in and assassinate her, but after he was captured they tried to do it legally.
Thats a good point, if they were with the dominion why would they politely listen to nord gaurds instead of citing their right to enter like any other altmeri agent?
Also, if they were really assassins, why would they be talking to so many people, explain exactly what their victim looks like, and explain who they are and where they're from to the PC upon a first meeting? Worst assassins ever.
I know I'm late to this video, but theres a simpler reason in the lore for why the urn appears. To the people of whiterun, saadia just goes missing one day, and never returns. In a land as dangerous as skyrim, that usually means death. Hence, a funeral is held for her, even with no remains.
i was thinking of that, they would probably not know that she was just a facade and was captured, so all people that cared for her would assume she just died somewhere and make a proper offering in her name
@@kiramcdonalds7321especially since she's one of the only employees of the bannered mare, an assumed popular location in whiterun because it's a tavern/inn. Imagine your local bar suddenly has an employee disappear, I'd bet every regular patron would notice within a day or so.
Mikael (the guy) is the ultimate chad of Skyrim. He was once a student at the bard's college, but got kicked out because he had a sexual relationship with the headmaster. Im confident that he will eventually win Carlotta's heart (among other organs). Just you wait
who came riding to Whiterun from old rorikstead and the braggart did swagger and brandish his blade as he told of bold battles and gold that he made but then he went quiet, did Ragnar the red when he saw the shield-maiden Matilda who said oh you talk and you lie and you drink all our mead now I think its high time that you lie down and bleed and so then came slashing and clashing of steel as the brave lass Matilda charged in full of zeal and the braggart named Ragnar was boastful no more when his ugly red head rolled around on the floor
"Saadia looks in her.. 20s, 30s?" Saadia in vanilla game: *greying hair, paler face, mood lines showing a character older than young adult* Me: Don't be fooled by a modded pretty face!
They have 40 year old face adjustment option in vanilla skyrim if they wanted it to appear older according to game standards. A bit of push back on her age being taken like she is old but looks youthful well game mechanics functions built in and the developers choose not to use that setting maybe she is intended to be only 25-30 years old.
If the Aldmeri dominion were to send someone to kill Saadia, they wouldn't send a band of redguard mercenaries. They'd send a lone, unassuming assassin. You know, the way the Thalmor sent a khajit woman after you in Riften.
She accuses them of being assassins, but do you ever see them assassinate anyone? They capture her alive with a paralysis spell, not to mention how upset and enraged Kematu gets if you kill Sadia. If he was an assassin why would he be upset that you killed his mark? You did his job for him.
“She’s too young!” Maybe they should turn off their beauty mods. Remember that Delphine was an active Blade during the war, and could also pass as too young for that. Especially with certain mods.
I mean, the woman has greying hair (reminder, young-ish Redguards have pure black hair) and, in vanilla game, a paler face than body and the start of expressions lines... All signs of an older person in TES character creation (not Elder-old, but definetly not 20-ish)
Kematu's final statement, that it isn't his decision what will happen to Saadia when they get back to Hammerfell, doesn't sound like the gloating of a villain, or even a mercenary. It sounds like someone who has seen justice done. That was enough for me. ='[.]'=
The first thing Saadia does is manipulate you into thinking she needs your help before pulling a knife on you. She definitely does not seem like some innocent girl who simply spoke out against the Thalmor.
Your irony is almost more factual than the video itself. They are actually both lying, obviously, and this has nothing to do with Hammerfell or the Thalmor. Saadia probably stole a good amount of money from the guy after screwing him, he attempted to have her arrested by law, she fled, he followed with some lackeys, and there you have it. Both their stories are foolish and not well thought out. The guy here despite having some fair points, turns a blind eye to many obvious issues with his theory and makes up some reasons for Kematu's case that don't make any sense whatsoever. I did enjoy the video though nevertheless.
Also, Saadia says "I spoke out publicly against the Dominion; I suspect that's why these men were hired to hunt me down.". The whole province of Hammerfell spoke out against the Thalmor, which is the reason they went to war. It wouldn't matter at all if Saadia was against the Dominion because everybody in Hammerfell feels the same way and the Aldmeri Dominion couldn't do anything as they're not allowed in the province.
@@hermonymusofsparta But the Thalmor wouldn’t care if she spoke out, because everyone else did. She would have no reason to flee if her story was true.
@@schrodingersmoth That makes absolutely no sense. They wouldn't care because "everyone else did"? What are you talking about? They're going around killing or torturing every single individual person In Skyrim who worships Talos under the empire's authority.
@@hermonymusofsparta I'm saying, according to her story, she was in Hammerfell when she spoke out about their Dominion. However, at their time, everyone in Hammerfell was speaking out against them. They Dominion would have no way to do anything to her even if they wanted to. To reiterate, if her story was true, *she had no reason to leave Hammerfell*
@@schrodingersmoth I know what you're saying but what you're saying doesn't make sense. You're just repeating yourself. If the Thalmor cannot get into Hammerfell they're going to hire other people to get in for them to make an assassination. Your statement that everyone was speaking against them and Hammerfell is simply something you have made up. Yes the country is anti Thalmor, but that doesn't mean everyone in the country is speaking against them like she was. Obviously the implication is that she spoke out and was "louder" so to speak then the rest. What doesn't make sense is that Kematu kills her in Whiterun hold if you choose to side with him because after the quest she shows up in the hall of the dead in Whiterun. And this is not simply a game mechanic because most NPCs do not end up in the hole of the dead. The developers had to specifically choose which NBC's would go into the hall of the dead when they died. Most NPCs that get killed just go to an unnamed area that cannot be accessed except for through console commands. This means the developer specifically chose her out to put in the Hall of the Dead as a clue to the quest.
One of many reasons I trust Kematu is that he doesn't immediately try to kill you, even after you ruthlessly slaughter his men. He says something to the effect of "Let us avoid unnecessary bloodshed. No one else needs to die here." If he were an assassin as Saadia says he is, he would not hesitate to spill as much blood as is necessary.
@@Lyu-Phy I feel like people are choosing to ignore that because they want to believe one side more over the other because of lore reasons. We don't know how much, if, or where in Hamerfell has been taken over by the Aldmeri Dominion from the inside rather than publicly in more recent times. A lot of time passes between games, and infiltration doesn't really take a thousand years. People are choosing to use past ES lore because that's all we know, when in reality they are forgetting how time has passed between those previous games, books, and other media. Saadia could have been lying too, but what about the warriors? How can we be sure Kematu isn't lying as well to gain our trust? Feels easier back then to trust one side, but I'm sure that games like God of War: Ragnarök would at least change how people feel about this quest. In terms of Saadia's personality, imagine living most of your life on the run and then being called a liar and distrusted because the moment you're being found as a fugitive you act rash? Feels a little distasteful. But this quest is still up to player interpretation. If you think that she was lying then she was lying, and if you think he was lying then he was lying. The ending is what you choose to believe is the ending.
Especially since he has you dead to rights, with a squad of Allikir warriors flanking both his sides. You are at his mercy, and he STILL wants to avoid further bloodshed. That’s not an assassin, that’s a general.
Saadia goes from "Oh no they found me!" to "One of them got arrested" in the span of a few seconds, she obviously already knew Klamatu was closing in on her.
she probably knew they where around but not the why they where there and if i was running away from someone i'd made sure that any news on someone from the very people who i ran from would be sent my way but also having to lay low can make news of the why harder to get but if someone gets arrested in your neck of the woods. a community as small as whiterun, i'd at least know who was locked up.
Also isn't it strange how Kematu gets upset if you kill saadia after leading her to him? If he was truly an assassin there to kill her, he'd appreciate the help and would have no need to go on pretending to be anything other than an assassin as you just killed his target in cold blood in front of him, but instead he just chastised you.
OK, but just to play Devil's advocate here, it could be that the Thalmor wanted her delivered to them alive. I'm of the "Saadia is lying" camp, but that line of dialogue from Kematu doesn't prove anything.
@@FreshwaterSquid77 well, according to her they're assassins, so if you follow the double reward route(bug?) Saadia will attack you after the paralysis wears off. Is it a scripting bug _or_ is it that the "assassin" didn't kill her on sight, so she knows that she's been found out and is trying to get rid of the witness?
@@FreshwaterSquid77 Actually, it doesn't prove Kematu didn't lie, but it refutes the claim that Kematu might have actually killed Saadia after having taken her away, which is one of the biggest thing standing for Saadia in the community.
My favorite memory of this questline is when I played a plodding Stormcloak who wasn't bright enough to figure out who was lying but did know one of them was, so he killed both to be sure he got the right one.
I did something kinda like that where I sold saadia out but then saved her, which meant having to fight less of them rather than if I attacked their hideout, very useful in survival mode to save resources
Saadia when you just try to talk to her: *traps you in her room and pulls out a knife, “WHO DO YOU WORK FOR?” The redguard warriors when you kill everyone in the cave they are hiding and try to attack them:”we got off to a rough start, lets talk,” Yeah, guess who I helped.
I mean, if she's indeed hiding from the Thalmor (considering Whiterun is neutral ground), she's right to be a little.. on edge if people start inquiring about her past
"We got off to a rough start" - Dammit Kematu, I just slaughtered my way through a dozen guys outside. I can't switch horses in mid-rampage, I'm on a roll here. Next time, maybe give out wanted posters instead of this need-to-know nonsense.
@@redaethel4619 Wanted posters would only tip the Thalmor off. And since Skyrim is currently subject to Thalmor patrols they could easily head over to the city and procure her whereas the Redguards aren't allowed in.
@@darken2417 At the same point tho, if Saadia is a thalmor spy why is she not with the Thalmor being protected and fearing for her life everyday instead?
The Ali’kir don’t behave at all like you’d expect for assassins. During the random encounter, they harass the redguard woman and ask her to come with them, where an assassin would just slit her throat or snipe her with an arrow. When you encounter them in the city, they are asking the guards to be let in, rather that just sneaking in one by one and killing her. Why go through all the trouble pretending to be warriors bringing her to justice when they could just kill her from the shadows?
She calls the innkeeper Hulda, (think that’s her name) Mum. Likely she came to Whiterun at a younger age and was adopted by her. A mother would want a memorial regardless of remains.
@@NoName-mi8jsWell no, but I also don't live in a city surrounded by wolves, bandits, necromancers, bears, giants, sabtertooth tigers, and temperamental mammoths, soooo...
I also want to point out that Saadia says that killing Kematu will result in the assassins leaving but once you have killed Kemantu, the Alikir STILL show up around Skyrim looking for her.
Lets turn this around: If Saadia was truly a snitch. She would have had money yes? Now she is in Skyrim and she could have easily bought a house there and enjoy a retirement. She could have joined the thieves guild if she wasnt. But she chose to stay in some inn and work there. Thats not something someone would do who has a crapload of gold
@@Captain_Cinnamonshe is on the run truth or not, unlike the dragon born who can 300,000,000 gold pieces eithout breaking a sweat, lot of gold is hard to carry and hide. She may have hidden it and is working as an inn girl to keep cover.
This quest really tests your knowledge on the lore of TES. First time playing I'd heard of the terrible Aldmeri Dominion, but had no idea they had no presence in Hammerfell. Why would Saadia run from the Aldmeri Dominion by escaping a country without their presence to a country where they freely roam the streets? That, and I was quite the white knight for a lady in peril.
They could be both telling the truth. Remember hammerfell was occupied for a while before the thalmor were pushed out. Is it so unbelievably that she spoke out within an occupied city before fleeing and the thalmor sent a warrior order after her? Remember the thalmor are really fucking good at divide and conquer and sowing disinformation.
Redguards HATE the thalmor. They refused to give land to the thalmor and even waged war with them which they won to sign a new agreement of their own. There's no way mere septims can outweigh that hatred. Oh yes, there's more to this. Hammerfell does not have thalmor influence like Skyrim. So there's no reason she wants to *escape* from hammerfell. The fact that Skyrim instead has thalmor influence makes it even more dangerous for her if she was really hunted by the thalmor. Another thing is she is a member of a highly renowned house. She would have alot of protection and definitely enough to fight off a band of mercenaries. She had to abandon her family because they are after her too. She also said "slither back to *their desert* " meaning she does not recognize hammerfell as 'hers' anymore. Lastly the alikr warriors seem very angry instead of greedy when talking about Saadia. There's no reason to be angry about money of course. They must be hating saadia for some reason.
Two points: First, Saadia might say "their desert" in reference to the actual Alik'r Desert, the home of the Alik'r warriors, which is only a portion of Hammerfell, and would make sense since she at least claims to be noblewoman and native of the coast city of Taneth. Looking down on the desert dwellers could be natural. And hating the Thalmor and the Dominion doesn't prevent Ulfric Stormcloak from being considered a valuable Dominion asset by the Thalmor for the destabilizing effect his campaign to be High King of Skyrim has had on the Empire as a whole. If the Thalmor are willing and able to exploit Ulfric and the Stormcloaks by going out of their way to antagonize anti-Imperial sentiments through the Talos ban, why can't a similar gambit be true with regard to the Alik'r? Is it really unimaginable that the Thalmor leaked a list of alleged and actual accomplices to create resentments that will destabilize the southern reaches of Hammerfell in preparation for a new campaign?
MinishMoosen it still doesn't make sense that she is hiding in a country that is occupied by the Thalmor she "opposes". If she truly opposed them she wouldn't have fled to a country under occupation, and would have simply stayed in Hammerfell.
@Blockheadfun The Thalmor don't control all of Skyrim, and Whiterun is probably the safest city in the province for her, given that Heimskr proves all day, every day that the Thalmor hold no sway under Jarl Balgruuf. If she'd stayed in Hammerfell, then she'd still be within arm's reach of the splinter band of Alik'r collaborators @MinishMoosen suggests; under their theory, she really might have a better chance of survival by running to a chaotic, war-torn province and using that chaos to get lost in the churn than by staying in a relatively stable province that's already her enemies' home turf.
Besides, if she really did speak out against the Thalmor, who's to say they couldn't snatch her themselves like they did with Thorald? Yeah, think about that.
"Wouldn't it be funny if we can side with Thalmor and do this quest;" That wouldn't be 'funny', that would be Blasphemy! (The only good Thalmor is a dead Thalmor!)
Pay attention to the conversation that you have with her upstairs. You walk up tell her about the Al Akir. She acts shocked "oh no they've found me" feigning surprise. Then she later mentions. "one of them got arrested sneaking into the city, you might start there". She already knew about them finding her (and one of them being arrested) long before you had spoken with her, proving that she was acting when you mentioned them. She's inconsistent. She shouldn't be shocked hearing that they know where she is when she already knows that they are skulking around and getting arrested in Whiterun.
Is it possible that she didn't think they had already found her, but we're instead just searching the city to see if she could be there? Where as later They definitely know she's there when you talk to her. Either way, she's totally guilty.
@@mimmikibilly She's still lying to the pkayer by implication, then. Acting like she doesn't know the Alik'r are in the city, then telling you they are.
Saadia was always too evasive in the conversations. Kematu seemed like he was willing to explain everything you'd care to know (limited by Skyrim's dialogue of course).
Also I guess if you must lie like that being vague is much better because it means less likely to be proven wrong tho as so often happens being vague is almost always a reason to suspect a person. Not only that, but also to be specific and particularly significantly so takes a lot of time and effort and having to costantly think of have I been consistent with that fact or this. Its easier to keep your head down, dont say much, and if asked why your face looks terrible, you could answer "domestic violence" or "got attacked on the way here" or something. It seems plausible and no one would think to probe for more info.
@@muffinman2546 the dark borther hood also didn't had much influence either. do people forget this was the last back water sanctuary? if anything how astrid ran the brotherhood was nothing but a scary boogie man at the time. anything that made the brotherhood dangerous was gone. heck that's WHY astrid agreed to the assassination of tidus mede II, to gain that infamy that the brotherhood once had, at first. she was willing to let the dark brotherhood be nothing but a bottom of the barrel scoundrels that sometimes kill people, rather then a feared and hunted organisation that had any say in the world. the dark borther hood was basically on death bed in skyrim
@@muffinman2546 well they merely "disbanded" and can assemble at an orders notice. they most likely still have many agents influencing thing behind the curtain in morrowind
This is a really detailed explanation. Thank you! I always believed Kematu's story because of two facts: 1) When confronting Saadia she claims that she didn't know about the Alik'r being in the vicinity, but then a few sentences later she says that she knows about one being arrested in Whiterun. So she's lying at least at that instant. 2) Saadia claims that Kematu and his men were assasins and wanted to kill her. But Kematu does in fact NOT kill her but stuns her instead. If he were an assasin he could easily kill her right on sight and explain that she was already sentenced to death or something similar. He wouldn't need to make up a story about bringing her back and not harm her on the way just to get the Dragonborn on his side.
Part of point one I just chalk up to the writing quality myself. Lots of quests kind of have that snap neck change and such. Like say, after you become a werewolf in the Companions. Aela critizes a fellow Companion for having run off without a Shield-Sibling... then immediately sends you in to the fortress of the people that killed that veteran Companion on your own without a Shield-Sibling at your side. Honestly though in this I think that he has put too much effort on "All members of a race are exactly the same" and ignored points brought up about the Great War in the game. That the Thalmor's invasion wasn't just them powering through things. They had a fifth column of agents and turncoats across the Empire when they invaded. This does actually fit well with, well, both sides. Saadia being one of those fifth column members that was inside Hammerfell, a noble who was bribed, threatened, convinced, etc, fits for why after the conflict she'd have to flee, and had to hide out as one of MANY traitors that would have existed. But that's the thing. There would have been MANY traitors in that war. Not just one like he tries to frame up in the video of only Saadia in all of Hammerfell was anything but staunchly resolved against the Dominion. So why is it so insane that among a war where half of the population of Hammerfell (by mention in game) turned to the Dominion like some 20 or so people (Max number really of Kematu's band considering their presence in the province) couldn't have been either? I could see a similar situation where it was this band of warriors who betrayed the city. Opened up the defenses. Let the Dominion in. Saadia having to flee as her city was lost and her loyal guards were on the enemy's side at least in part. And this explains Kematu's actions. Skyrim does extraditions. We see this in the Thieves' Guild Special Mission for Whiterun after all. They have no problem handing over people to legitimate authorities, even if they don't like that authority as a point of honor, in general. Skyrim's Nords are not noted for having any real distaste of or hatred towards the now independent province of Hammerfell. So why did Kematu's band have to sneak into a city instead of just ask the guards and hand over this "She's a wanted traitor" writ? Nords eat up that "Punish someone for Treason" stuff. But if its murkier.... if say Kematu's people are trying to spin a story of "Oh no we weren't the traitors, Imam was!" now that the political situation doesn't favor the Thalmor and they're afraid someone might pin the fall of the city on them instead? That suddenly makes the skullduggery and skulking about make sense. Why they want her alive, so they can basically torture confessions out of her and have that show trial. I just think it's far less cut and dry than the video makes out and leans too heavily on the idea that all redguards ever are a hive mind without independent decisions outside of Saadia.
Another two good points are that, in lore, the Alik'r harassed Thalmor forces while they were retreating form Hammerfell. Why would the Thalmor hire them specifically ? And in that train of thought, why would the Thalmor need to hire Alik'r warriors to pursue someone in Skyrim, when they have more than enough spies and infiltrators in the kingdom to do that job way more easily ?.
For my part, I always just figured Saadia was guessing they were hired by the Thalmor. She's been on the run after all. She probably doesn't know what actually is up in her home kingdom and all. If, to her point of view, Kematu's warriors were turncoats for the dominion that sold out the city and Saadia had to flee for speaking out against the Dominion as she says... she might very well figure Kematu hunting her down is due to the Dominion. But if Kematu basically is just trying to prop up Saadia as a show trial to cover up his own misdeeds (I'm reminded of Duras in Star Trek: The Next Generation, where he blames Worf's father for a betrayal he in fact did, and even has a show trial set up to give Worf Discommendation and dishonor to hammer it home)... why would Saadia know that he wasn't working with the Dominion any more as she tries to hide?
More so, if the Alik'r were really Thalmor assassins, why wouldn't them be let into Whiterun? After all, Whiterun at that moment is an Imperial city. They're 'allies' so to speak
Yes but the thalmor what utter control of everything. Including hammerfell eventually and what makes getting control easier then sending someone after a royal that dosnt like the thalmor. (But I do agree with you kinda strange)
I mean if I was going to take over a place ruled by a monarchy the first people I'd weed out would be anyone who spoke out against me especially of high importance and reward those who speak in my favour
@@blackplaguegaming4255 But on that note, if Kematu was an assassin, why would they go through all the trouble of arresting her for a trial? The Thalmor wouldn't care about that, they'd just want her head. Assassins don't bring quarry into authorities. Alive, anyway. Besides, the Alik'r would be Redguard loyalists, and most certainly wouldn't aid Elven interlopers on their homeland.
If you play a redguard woman with a facial scar you get unique dialogue from both Kematu and the warriors. Warrior random encounter scenario. -"Imani we have finally found you! You are returning back with us to hammerfell to pay for your crimes" then they become hostile. if you had a facial scar but not on the left cheek further dialogue occurs -"Brother wait , that's not the right scar" -" I see, you are right brother it isn't, you there move along" Attempting to talk with them again just gives you the option to ask questions but they respond with -"move along" along with "hmm","yes" and "alright then" when fight through the bandit camp to meet kematu he will say the following when you first meet -"stay your hand warrior" -"My men told me about seeing someone resembling who we were looking for but the scar is not in the right spot so you are not her" the rest is the same dialogue.
Saadia: I spoke out against the dominion back in Hammerfell. Me, activating a shrine of Talos in the presence of a Thalmor justiciar: Oh, what a crime.
@@ChronicNewb Harassing Stormcloaks, siding with the Imperials on the Civil War questline and the Season Unending quest. You can also use Hooded Thalmor Robes to blend into the Party quest and just sneak through the last bit, either torturing the guy or setting him free (i set him free just for ✨character development✨) Choosing every obnoxious dialogue option, and also becoming Archmage of Winterhold to depose Ancano since he's technically a part of a splinter group and a threat to the dominion. There's also a quest in Markarth you can do that would get a Thalmor agent on your side. Can you tell I've been playing this for the past 10 years? lol
You could also say that when saadia goes missing from whiterun, the people who live there may just assume she has been killed, having no reason to think otherwise and so just placed her a burial urn (I personally always thought kematu was telling the truth)
BFM Trooper Or that she was executed in Hamnerfell and they sent her remains to her adoptive family (ie the inkeeper of Whiterun to whom she was like a daughter) since no one in Hamnerfell wanted them.
@@Comandate7 To me it's more likely that the people of Whiterun set up the urn to remember Saadia rather than the remains being sent back. Here is why. If the warriors were risking a great deal just to cross the border into Skyrim (a place warring with the Thamlor) as Camel eloquently pointed out, why would the Redguard risk going back to deliver the remains? It doesn't seem like something worth doing. I could see dropping the ashes at the border, but not going any further. Maybe they got the almighty Courier to deliver the remains to Whiterun.
Hot Take: Kematu is telling the truth, but is wrong + Saadia is also telling the truth but is also wrong. I feel like we skipped over the part where the Thalmor somehow made contact with an enemy noble (or vice versa) and were like, "Yeah we will totally pay you for your services and not harm you in any way." Those scars are from the Thalmor 100%. She THINKS the Alik'r are assassins because she's paranoid. She may or may not have revealed secrets during torture but regardless everyone in Hammerfell THINKS she gave them up. (Also, they never mention what kind of secrets or how it lead to their downfall). When she flees Hammerfell she is fleeing from Hammerfell citizens that assume she sold them out, and she assumes THEY are Traitor Hammerfellers trying to capture her so the Thalmor can finish the job. From this perspective, both choices are the correct choice. Either she stays where she feels she is safe and lives out her life as a cook, or she goes home for trial and is found not guilty. The End.
I like this take a lot. The only hole I can see is that aren't the Alik'r famous in Hammerfell for being warriors, not assassins? And I believe they also fought against the Thalmor but I'm rusty on this lore. Rewatching as I'm scrolling comments
The only application of brain here. It's doesn't need to be her being paranoid about Alik'r being assassins, but she could easily have had guards bribed by Aldmeri agents to bring her for torture. I keep telling, that human mind is a very fragile computer we have prone to overcompensate and over-conform errors. She's easily a torture victim, which is about similar traumatic experience to rape victims, which we understand much better and would also explain this story.
I'm sorry, but Saadia would not be found Not Guilty when she gets back to Hammerfell. She would be executed as a traitor to satisfy the public outcry. The Dragonborn was going to be executed for simply crossing the border into Skyrim illegally, why would someone like Saadia be given any greater leniency?
@@enbeast8350Like the guy up top said, she's paranoid, when your paranoid your not thinking rational, due to her paranoia she thinks the Thalmor are still trying to come after her.
As an explanation for her urn appearing in Whiterun, you can just explain it off as her going missing and the people of Whiterun assuming she's dead and giving her a ceremonial funeral. Her urn is empty.
Or.. her ashes may have been sent back to Whiterun after her execution because they didn’t want someone who betrayed their people to be buried in their homeland. Would be quite disrespectful if you ask me.
But why would they care in the first place if her ashes were returned anywhere? Just dump them in the ocean and be done with it, they have no obligation to wherever she called home after her treason act to her ORIGINAL homeland. I agree that the urn is empty, no ashes are in it anyways, it was just ceremonial for the people of Whiterun who cared that she went missing.
@@Crpz nah bro, it appears too quickly for travel to hammerfell, the trials, the execution, and the travel back to whiterun. Not to mention the probable astounding amount of bureaucracy involved in accomplishing that. The ceremeony withing witherun is more likely. Besides, who in hammerfell would care about her? For all we know she could just be thrown to be scavenged by animals or impaled in a stake.
I think in development of Skyrim, it was originally planned that the game would take place sooner after the war. Not only Sandia & Kematu, but many references and pieces of dialogue make it feel like the war was more recent. The same with Ulfic's age and others who fought in the war. For me Skyrim should have been set 10 years after the great war (5 years after Hammerfell war) and no more. It would help things make more sense, particularly Ulfrichs timeline, instead of waiting 20 years after incident of Markarth to challenge Torigg, would have made sense if it was 5-10 years.
I don't think anybody in Hammerfell would waste the postage to send a dead traitor's body to their last known address. I feel like you nailed it with the whole "bug" thing.
It seems to me the most obvious evidence against Saadia is right at the beginning of the video. When you randomly come across the alak'r warriors accosting a redguard woman in the middle of nowhere, they tell her to come with them. Why would they do that if they were sent to assassinate her? While it's possible they were being careful and wanted to verify her identity first, simply telling her to come with them to what was most certainly a death sentence just doesn't logically follow. There wouldn't be any way she would come peacefully if she knew she was going to die anyway. However if she knew she was going back to stand trial, asking her to come peacefully makes a lot more sense and matches the character for mercenaries trying to do everything above the board. If they were assassins, I don't think the smart move would have been to confront her. Assuming they didn't just kill her outright without verifying her identity, I imagine they would observe her from a distance, possibly follow her to her home and send for Kematu to make sure. I don't know. They're certainly assholes but they don't seem interested in murder. They're whole demeanor tells me they were going to take her somewhere and interrogate her. And I can't imagine that conversation going "Are you Saadia?" "Yes." *STAB*
There's also the fact that they know she trusts the Dragonborn so they could have just asked the Dragonborn to kill her for them. Send a warrior with the Dragonborn to make sure the job is done too. If they just wanted her dead, they would either ask the Dragonborn or get the Dark Brotherhood to do it. They clearly have the money to share the reward with you on site and not wait until it's over. There's so many ways they could have her killed but instead they want her alive. Well not just want, their whole mission is to capture her alive. If she's dead, it's over and they fail their mission. Also she's the only one in the quest who asks you to kill and to kill multiple people. That to me says she's not a good person. If she wasn't guilty, she'd ask you to convince them she's already dead or something but she jumps right to killing them. Before I knew the lore on my first ever playthrough, I went with Sadia because there's no reason to believe she'd lie, after knowing the lore and being more versed in the ES universe, there's no doubt in my mind she's guilty and I always have her captured. Also the Redguards hate the Thalmor and anyone who hates the Thalmor are good in my books!
7:37 Given the fact that she literally said "drag me back to hammerfell for an execution" right after calling them assassins, I dont think you point is very valid
Yesterday I did this quest way too late in the game. Details: - Quest for finding the ring for an alchemy lady in Dawnstar was taken earlier than Kematu/Saadia quest, and it targeted the same cave (I think there should be several possible locations) - Then Saadia quest was completed in favor of Kematu. Saadia was left alive and captive. - After some time I completed ring quest and following further into the cave, I found all the Alik'r including Kematu, dead. Dunno whether this is a bug or cut sequence from early iteration of the quest development, but this leaves some room for speculations, that Saadia actually managed to talk the bandits into massacring the Alik'r and fled.
I did this quest by handing Saadia to over to Kematu and later discovered this cabe randomly and saw Kematu and all his men standing ready for a fight but weren’t hostile to DB.
When I did the quest and sided with Kematu, I found him much later just chilling in the cave all alone when I was sent there by another quest. And I was a Redguard myself. Extremely disappointed there's literally no changes in the dialogue if you are a Redguard. Like when the guards comment the warriors from hammerfell got curved sword... Talking to me, a Redguard, having a curved sword on me... Like I was right there dude.
I like how at first she's like "oh no, they've found me" like she was totally surprised that they had come to Skyrim... but then she's like "Oh yeah, I heard one of them was just arrested trying to sneak into the city" hmmm
He would if he was hired to bring her in for Thalmor interrogation, to use her as a hostage against her family, or the reward required her being brought in alive for full payment. That is the bigger problem with Kematu though that he can't produce any paperwork to back up his claims.
I told them id bring her to the stables i rushed ahead of her an killed them took their money an let her pay me 300 as well. They only pay out 100 gold ...cheap bastards.
I suspect neither of them is who they claim to be and their conflict has nothing to do with the Dominion. Saadia's story doesn't make sense, obviously. But would actual Alik'r warriors, known for their honor and loyalty, hire bandits for protection? Would they abandon a brother in arms? I don't think so. And if Saadia really sold her city out to the Aldmeri, wouldn't she go to them for protection? My guess is that they're either from two rival criminal groups, or Saadia really is a noblewoman, but Kematu was hired not by the elves, but by a rival house. Why would they both accuse the other of working for the Dominion? If they're outlaws, telling the truth to a stranger would be pretty stupid for obvious reasons. If it's a conflict between two noble houses from a distant land, there's a risk the Dragonborn would side with the other one, or just not care. They want to paint the other side as an obvious villain, and the Aldmeri Dominion, being universally hated in both Skyrim and Hammerfell, is a good choice.
What could they do when no hold lets entry to them and no one even listens to their story? Also the Aldmeri cunts are all over Skyrim, so if they hold up in a place that has connections to those cunts, they are risking their lives for no reason! The enemy of their enemy is their temporary friend...
Saadia says that they are assasins sent from the thalmor. Now if they were sent behalf on Thalmor they would definitely be let inside the city. Why would they hide for example that their working under Thalmor they wouldnt! So that she lies is why i pick alikr side. They may be mercenaries but they are atleast serving under Hammerfell. I do think that Alikr helps the resistance since Kematu mentions it. So since they fight against thalmor their obviously my pick
@@mathiasaaron6945 they both lie. Alkir says they want to capture her alive, but you can later find out that they kill her. They are both lying and it probably does indeed have little to do with the Dominion or the war. As such i usually side with the chick cause she is legit scared and has no intention to kill anyone, unlike the other side.
There's no way this quest was without deeper meaning, bethesda seems to like to put "hint quests" in there games that relate to the plot of the next game in the series, see the synth quest in Fallout 3. Id be willing to put money on this being skyrims "hint quest" because of the implications of the outcome. No matter who's lying it means that even after the great war there is a thalmor presence in hammerfell, which seems to clearly be where the next game is gonna be set.
This side quest literally is like one of 10 quests that are more interesting then the usual "Fetch this object for me" or "Kill this bandit leader for me," and you act like its an uninteresting boring ass quest *Facepalm*
@@shadysam7161 It is uninteresting. They don't give the players enough choices or information to work with and the most talked-about "evidence" that are given appear *after* the quest has been completed... If it was a game like The Witcher 3, they would have provided more information on the situation in Hammerfell (in the actual quest), allowed the player to take a neutral position and hidden clues around the area for the curious player to find.
I'm a few years late, but another point is that when you side with Kematu, you may get a random encounter where some Thalmor from the dominion are sent to kill you, one of them having a note saying that you have interrupted their plans, and need to be killed.
An interesting theory could be that Saadia's scars were inflicted by the Thalmor while torturing her and that she finally broke under the torture and gave up the information that lead to the fall of Taneth in the war. So, she was an unwilling traitor and this is why she is on the run and hiding as she did technically commit treason.
I feel like if that was true though, she would have told us that. If you were on the run from the Alik'r, and wanted to convince a stranger of your innocence, which would sound more convincing; "I spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion," or, "The Thalmor tortured information out of me that led to Taneth being taken. I had no choice, they were torturing me. That's how I got these scars. And now Hammerfell blames me and wants to bring me to justice." It makes sense she's living in hiding for that reason, but she seems desperate and is willing to put her faith in the player character. Why lie? Although now that I think about it, I think you could be right, and maybe there's a reason for her not telling us that, despite the fact she is letting her guard down with us: the hatred for the Aldmeri Dominion in Skyrim is so commonplace that people think that working with them in any way deserves punishment. They could be unsympathetic to the fact it was tortured out of her.
Mallory Spencer then why not say: “they confused me for an Traitor, who sold Hammerfell out to the Aldimery.” That would make her a lot more sympathetic and not risk losing credibility from someone who is a bit more worldly than Ulfric. Here is what I think. She did sell out her people, but either the Thalmor broke their end of the deal by not protecting and her identity got somehow leaked. Or maybe the info she sold was so niche that the mere existence of it basically broke the disguise. Or maybe she did flee somewhere with more Thalmor sympathizers and but was found out anyways. After all, if I were to sell my people out, I’d at least make sure that I won’t have to hide as a bar wench in a city in the middle of nowhere on the other side of the continent. I’d live it up big on the Thalmors bill.
Fun fact: the prophecy of dragons returning to Skyrim was written by Michael Kirkbride after he left Bethesda. This means the whole game is based on a fanfic by the former lore writer.
@@ishashka Bethesda appreciates Kirkbride, they're still on good terms with him, so they keep the things they think are canon and that don' conflict with the lore. Kirkbride also makes many wacky takes on the world, like technological advancement in the 5th era, you don't need technology when you have magic.
My theory is that they are like Ulfric, they both think they are working against the thalmor by trying to get each other dead, but in fact the thalmor actually want them to kill each other
Wouldn't say that's a theory, moreso a different perspective. I'd say this is canon, due to how we see the Thalmor operate canonically, which is having as few loose ends as possible, while letting their enemies deal with each other.
she is not working against the thalmor. claims to be running away from hammer fell because of the thalmor yet everyone in hammerfell denies and fights against thalmor influence so why would she need to be running. and assuming her lie was truth, thalmor would send actual assassins and know where she is, they wouldn’t need a squad of hammerfell soldiers still trying to find her.
@@chokonnit7337 I'm a bit late to this thread, but I think the original comment is implying that both Saadia and Kematu are telling the truth, but that they are both being played by the Thalmor, just like Ulfric was played by the Thalmor in killing Torygg. Maybe Saadia belongs to a Redguard faction that believes the Hammerfell government/military (Alik'r) have become corrupt and have started working for/with the Thalmor (even though this might not be the case at all) and she was led to believe that her actions would free Hammerfell from this conspiracy. So, while Saadia did sell out Hammerfell, she did so with the belief that she was doing the right thing. Not saying this is the truth or canon, but it is a different perspective in Saadia's favor.
That would be possible, given the Thalmor were gaslighting Ulfric into thinking, he provided information that helped them in the war. Thus I wouldn't put it past them to frame somebody who was speaking against them as responsible for a Redguard military loss.
Another in-lore explanation for Saadia's remains: After her disappearance, they sent out a small search for Saadia, came up empty, and presumed her dead. The urn doesn't actually hold her remnants, it's ceremonial.
Considering the Urn is empty I think that the people of Whiterun noticed that Saadia disappeared and didnt come back and they assumed she died and put an urn in the Hall of the Dead out of respect for a face that worked prominently in the city. Most if not everyone in Whiterun would have seen her and known here if they go to the Bannered Mare
Exactly - as far as everyone is concerned, she was last seen bolting out of the city before disappearing. In a province as dangerous as Skyrim, I can't imagine too much help is held out for people who just end up missing one day, especially if they were last seen leaving the relative safety of a Hold Capital...
Also in relation to what some the player will chose, the quest is called "In my time of need" which feels a lot more like it is referring to helping Saadia in her time of need
It can also be interpreted as Kamatu asking you for help since the Ali'kir can't get into the city. A less likely interpretation of the title of the quest, but still an interpretation someone could make, nontheless
Since 2011, Ive always had the idea that this quest was simply a foreshadow for Elder Scrolls 6. And as time goes on, I feel this to be more and more likely
..and if TES VI were revealed to be about Argonia, you'd surely claimed the same about the Sleeping Tree xD Or about Khajiit caravans.. they'd simply left some reminders that there is actually a wide world outside Skyrim. A nice thing, since with their tendency to shrink the area of playable world in every next game of the series, I feel a bit claustraphobic in Skyrim and worry a lot about Hammerfell.
how cool you turned out to be right and looking back it seems so obvious with all the red guards and men from highrock who were highlighted throughout the game. you could argue that argonians were also given several missions of their own though you had to search them out a bit more, they were not waiting for you at the gate of the first hold you are sent to. it's been pointed out that bethesda seems to like doing this with their games. giving subtle hints as to were the next one might be.
@@sholahverassa8582 what, the love triangle? or the dark elf bandit that basically introduces us to the claw keys? both really minor as the whole triangle can be solved without leaving the town. another point, it is only a town and the quest is easily missed, not forcibly introduced like by a side quest waiting for you at the city gate screaming "hey, listen to our loud conversation before we stop you in the street to give you a side quest". unless you go and actually talk to the elf you would never know he had a quest.
@@artwithalexander5359 Still not an argument. 1) Khajiit caravans can be found travelling all over Skyrim, to most of the hold capitals. You can't miss them either. 2) Dunmer got a whole DLC, you can't hope to finish Dragonborn without running into a bunch. 3) Reachmen are basically Bretons and you get a quest with them as soon as you enter Markarth 4) Thalmor are among the main antagonists of the game, they attack you screaming louder than any Whiterun guards, you can't avid them on your walkthrough, and as such a major force aimed at destroying the world, their homeland would have made an awesome background for the next game. I repeat again, now when we know what the next game will be, we can surely find a lot of "proof" that Bethesda was putting into Skyrim, but if they were to choose another province, you would have just found another event as such "proof". The defining feature of all the prophecies is that the are too muddy to understand until something happens, and then somebody will surely find a way to "interprete" them in a desired manner.
Honestly I always assumed Kematu was telling the truth for the simple reason that if Sadia were on a thalmor hitlist they wouldn't need some redguard sycophant to hunt them in Skyrim. The thalmor move freely in imperial-supporting lands in Skyrim (I realize Whiterun is neutral until you pick a side but they side with the empire and presumably part of remaining neutral would involve allowing free travel to supporters of each side) and are already not only actively hunting traitors and enemies to their cause but go out of their way to persecute random talos worshippers within of their own resources and volition. Why would they bother to outsource the hunting of this one dissident to a group of mercenaries who cannot even enter major settlements in the region who then have to outsource help to those who can when they could instead just walk into whiterun and drag her out of the bannered mare unchallenged? Basically the only two options are "Sadia is lying" and "Bethesda writers are incompetent and their works contradictory".
In my play throughs, I usually am pro Dominion, so I side with who I am told is Dominion. It leads to me killing the assassins when I lead Saadia to them.
*Pickpocet 100* is better. Sneak up behind her at the market and steal all her clothes. Saadia to Carlotta: "Why is everyone laughing?" Carlotta: *"snerk!"* Bonus points if you have CBBE and physics mods active. Yes, I've had too much mead right now...
"I'm part Redguard myself. Guess which part! But seriously, do you have any Nord in you? Do you want some?" From this one: ua-cam.com/video/WFI5wGf0WN4/v-deo.html
I never realized you could lure Kematu to the stable and kill him there. For a novice Dragonborn fresh out of Helgen, the fight against Kematu and his men is one of the more challenging fights you can face. If I knew he'd show up alone at the stables, it makes killing him much easier.
I like that, if you’re a first time player, you’ll likely have no way to know that Saadia’s lying, and will side with her. Makes you feel completely manipulated when you encounter her in a second playthrough.
Yes!! And the game has already established a pattern of "one person tells you to help them out and go kill a bunch of fellers", also the warriors are in a cave with bandits who the PC has likely taken out loads of by then.
I always side with Kematu. Did it even the first time around. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty allergic to people drawing their knife at me when I just want to talk to them.
The reason people argue the remains means Kematu is lying is because it doesn't make sense for the Alik'r to take Saadia back to Hammerfell, get her tried and executed, then send her remains all the way back to Whiterun. Honestly I think it makes more sense that it's a bug, because I can't imagine them even making the effort to cremate her and would probably just leave her body out in the desert.
@@NoName-mi8jsYou are also ignoring the fact that a disappearance would be considered death too. An urn doesn't necessarily have to have ashes when a person's body isn't found.
as much as hammer fell wants to be free of all the bullshit, i cant see that there are NO factions with the elves at all. I dont believe that for a minute. if i was a power going into territory that im not wanted in i may bribe some motherfuckers who look like everyone else to go in and maybe get into good positions, and while some of that may take a bit to get the job done as long as i dont fuck up their cover and give them a couple of good items, well at least some of them might get into positions of authority and knowledge but that just me.
@@giantmess4335 If Saadia is lying then that proves that some Redguard sided with the elves (sold out city). If Kematu is lying that proves that some Redguard side with the elves (hired by elves to kill Saadia).
@marcus24000 Oh yeah, "let's publicly announce to EVERYONE that we are here on a land with bitter conflict to a jarl that literally could not give less of a shit about outsider presence, but don't worry, because with this royal decree now all our enemies know exactly where we are as well as our very target who now has plenty chance to run away." You just want to believe that the pretty lady is right no matter what.
@marcus24000 I can't believe that you tried to defend your argument with something even dumber than what you previously said. Not only is this very wrong, it's also stupid to even think it'll work. What i already said answers why this post of yours would not work, read it, because you obviously did not. And have some common sense for ffs.
If Kematu is lying about anything, then it's probably the part that he's implying themselves as hired swards. His discipline to avoid unnecessary conflicts, and his demeanor (with better class than certain other Redguard in the Cloud District) makes me think that he's a part of an official elite force pretending to be a mercenary due to lack of diplomatic ties with the Empire.
i dont think official elite warriors let one of their own men rot in jail to be abandoned, leaving behind a soldier with no further obligation to uphold secrecy in the thalmor rooted country, possibly holding very important information behind
@@chritulkas5646 an elite force with this thought process would likely just assassinate him, yet i suppose its possible they just forgot about the thalmor.....?? anyways, i believe they are a bounty hunter group or some other organization, its hard to believe they are an official force
@@ReaperoeI believe Alik'r warriors are similar to Thalmor. Thalmor is an organization which giving advice to the Aldmeri Dominion King/Queen. They are racist and elven supremacist in their core. They govern lots of stuff within the Aldmeri Dominion. It seems like they are a very powerful cult. Imagine the former companions (before the time they are being divided). They would be the equivalent force Of Thalmor within Skyrim if they were involved with the politics. Companions, Thalmor, Alik'r just the same group with similar ideologies. Companions are used to be a racist Nord supremacist bunch of warrior while Thalmor does the same as an Altmer.
I helped Kematu the first time I played the game but recently I've started a new playthrough and noticing the cave is named Swindler's Den made me rethink my choices. After reading, watching and playing through so many stories in various media I've came to understand the importance of subtle hints. I mean, noble warriors paying bandits to live in some dirty cave? One of them is already in jail saying he 'got caught'? Seem very strange to me. Treason is a serious thing but I think there are a lot of different reasons for it and we can't learn a full story at the moment. Without solid proof and evidence helping Kematu looks simply like selling out an innocent working girl to a big group of men living with bandits, which is not a good thing to do, per se.
I sided with Sadia the first time. But the second time, I found that her story had holes in it. I felt like Kemarus story was more bullet proof. And also, him being kinda non-emotional about the whole thing, is also something I find supportive of my opinion. And also, him saying that its not up to him in the end, is also a way to make me feel like taking his side.
I couldn't agree more. I sided with her the first time because I didn't know any better. Haven't sided with her since. Kematu > Saadia, all day, every day.
Yeah, the first time around, I pretty much went "Damn those Thalmor and their stooges!" But that made less sense than Kematu's story in hindsight. I'm pretty sure this dilemma looking different depending on how much we know about what the current political climate of Tamriel was intentional in the design of the game. It's one of the earliest quests a new player runs into, and we're likely to know little about all those little things like how the White-Gold Concordat was followed by a Redguard-Aldmeri war which Hammerfell won. I think the writers intended this to be a mission that served as exposition on politics outside of Skyrim for players who sided with Kematu, and a chance to go "Oops, it's obvious she was lying in hindsight." moment for those that went with Sadia and found out about the situation in Hammerfell later.
@@eldarhighelfhealermiriella7653 the elder scrolls universe is still very much a product of modern times. where most fictional worlds don't really do the pedo thing, with good reason.
@@Yhur4x I didn't say having sex at age 12. But beeing an adult in the eyes of everyone else yes. French monks for example discovered that there was a high mortality rate of young girls and unborns when they get pregnant at 12,13 or 14. So they stated 15 as the age of pregnancy even thou at 12 they were very muchs adults for everyone else. So Saadia doing a betray to their own people at age of 12 and beeing much a "single" adult with no husband?. Quite possible. Amakusa Shiro was only 16 when he lead a rebellion in Japan.
Another possibility for why Saadia's remains would be in Whiterun is simply that she lived in the city long enough for the people there to consider her part of the city. Not knowing where she was from or what happened to her, they left her a burial urn assuming she had died in some accident and they never found the remains. Its also possible that Kematu left behind a body or something to make sure that no one would look for Saadia and cause unintended problems for her suddenly going missing in the city, and so the people there just assumed she'd died.
Do your friends make a coffin for you when you disappear for a few days? And how organized do you think this band of bandits are, who can't even get into the city? How exactly is leaving behind a body better? Oh, now we know for sure she was murdered, instead of maybe just running away. Huh? Weird, this woman was executed in Hammerfell? But we have her body!
The first time I played Skyrim, I found those Alik’r warriors out in the wild, and killed them for being assholes. When I saw them the next time I went to Whiterun I though they were there to kill me.
@@kabo2246 yeah this really could've been 10 to 20 minutes. Most of the length is caused by poor writing and an unnecessary quest walkthrough. Skyrim isn't that deep or complex
@@Ihavenolifeorvideos Just because it's not direct doesn't make it poor writing. Frankly I think the quality of the script is subjective. While you might not particularly enjoy it, others find it quite compelling.
If this isn’t definitively answered in TESVI we riot. Frt this whole questline in addition to Nazir in the DB made me feel even back when first playing skyrim that Hammerfel would be the next setting - it just feels like Skyrim is constantly reminding us that Hammerfel exists and the effort they went to develop the Alik’r in Skyrim makes me feel like it was on their minds even back then.
In regards to Saadia's remains returning to Whiterun: In the Bannered Mare you can hear Hulda, the innkeeper, refer to Saadia as "dear", and Saadia to her as "mother", well maybe this was initially for cover up, but during Saadia's stay there they developed a close relationship, and after she was taken to Hammerfell and executed, Hulda was grief-striken, and wanted Saadia's ashes returned home.
I don't play with subtitles on, so I always assumed Saadia said "Ma'am" rather than "Mum" as the subtitles make plain in this video. I guess, for me, contextually it made no sense for a Redguard to call a Nord "Mum" lol. I mean, come on??? "Mum" ??? Lol.
She says ma'am (pronounced mum sometimes) and dear is just Hulda being kind, I doubt there's any close relationship between the 2, I usually side with kematu but I wanted a change so I killed him eventually, the outcome is the same, you get 500 gold and everybody's happy. Personally, you're not going to see kematu ever again, you are really better off keeping saadia around just because she's more interactive. In the end who cares really.
@@dirk1998 Yeah, it doesn’t sound like a close relationship to me. Saadia sounds like she is trying to hide contempt when she speaks to Hulda while Hulda sounds like she’s speaking to a subordinate but in a natural way.
I think you got one small thing wrong, and that is in implying that Sadia isn't a noble. I think she actually was a noble who sold out her city, mostly because Kematu, when telling the story, says, "When the _other_ nobles found out about this," or something along those lines, implying that Sadia was a noble herself.
That was a very weird detail in this video. Like, wouldn't her not being a noble be a case in her favor, since a noble would have the power necessary to sell out a city?
Yeah, i thought that too, both of them imply that she's a noble, so there's no reason to think that she isn't, so that part of the story seems to be true
I think that the urn is quite simple to explain: she did technically go missing from the point of view of the lady she worked for, what if she's just assumed dead from Whiterun? And the name Saadia is used on the urn, not her real name, so.. It just makes sense
In regards to Saadia’s age… I mean Delphine is in her mid-50s and she looks pretty damn good. I don’t think we can gauge people’s age simply off what they look like in Skyrim
Eww nothing attractive about Delphine. Bitch is supposed to be my "minion" yet all she does is order me around, and wants me to kill the one living being who helped me fight Alduin. My best buddy Paarthunax. Fuck that. That bitch needed to be put into her place. If only there was a mod that added a literal bitch slap killing animation.
I think what proves Saadia is lying ultimately (tho albeit too late in a playthrough) is that she claims they are assasssins specifically but then they get mad if you kill her.
So who do you think is lying, Saadia or Kematu?
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Also, great video, dude!!!!
michelle would love this video
The girl is the one to die
It was easy killing her but only one kill? No fun killing the man and his gang now that was fun!
Camelworks
Hey man, want files and help ray tracing your skyrim!!?!
Kematu: So, will you help me?
Me: hold on
*pulls out phone and watches 52 minute video*
Me too! :D
Same my dude 🔥
Lmao, I do this all the time
I'm here now because of that haha
fr haah
I always got the vibe she was lying.
What kind of assassins are like:
they won't let us in the city, oh well
Exactly they would’ve snuck in. They’re warriors from hammerfell they have to be they’re not trying to start a war with Skyrim
Nikolai Volkov Well one of the hammerfell warriors did try to sneak in and was captured.
@@peep0705 Valid point, but that's what I mean. If they were truly assassins like she claimed, they wouldnt have been caught. They did things legally, because she was lying and they're not assassins
@@xCJx555 I mean it's not impossible for assassins to be captured, they could have sent one to sneak in and assassinate her, but after he was captured they tried to do it legally.
@@ppvsonicspy definitely possible, but I think it's more likely they aren't assassins and Saadia is lying
Iman: “These men are willing to pay off jarls and guards”
Alik’r: **leaves when a guard tells them to**
Thats a good point, if they were with the dominion why would they politely listen to nord gaurds instead of citing their right to enter like any other altmeri agent?
@@Jpeg.gwell, whiterun is neutral, however, the Thalmor don’t have free reign to enter any city.
Being neutral doesnt free them of having to obey the wgc. Only being in rebellion gives them the capacity to disobey it.
@@Alex777-ei2qqYou mean the White Brown Concordat? Because I wipe my ass with it!
- some Nord in a Skyrim Parody
Also, if they were really assassins, why would they be talking to so many people, explain exactly what their victim looks like, and explain who they are and where they're from to the PC upon a first meeting?
Worst assassins ever.
I know I'm late to this video, but theres a simpler reason in the lore for why the urn appears. To the people of whiterun, saadia just goes missing one day, and never returns. In a land as dangerous as skyrim, that usually means death. Hence, a funeral is held for her, even with no remains.
i was thinking of that, they would probably not know that she was just a facade and was captured, so all people that cared for her would assume she just died somewhere and make a proper offering in her name
Kind of sad when you think of it like that
@@kiramcdonalds7321especially since she's one of the only employees of the bannered mare, an assumed popular location in whiterun because it's a tavern/inn. Imagine your local bar suddenly has an employee disappear, I'd bet every regular patron would notice within a day or so.
It’s stunning how many people ignore this in favor of “tHey KiLLeD hEr!!!1!1!111!” Is it still a possibility? Sure. But why would they do that?
100% agree on that
Saadia: *tries to have a normal conversation*
That one guy in the background: _There once was a hero named Ragnar the Red--_
Mikael (the guy) is the ultimate chad of Skyrim. He was once a student at the bard's college, but got kicked out because he had a sexual relationship with the headmaster. Im confident that he will eventually win Carlotta's heart (among other organs). Just you wait
who came riding to Whiterun from old rorikstead
and the braggart did swagger and brandish his blade
as he told of bold battles and gold that he made
but then he went quiet, did Ragnar the red
when he saw the shield-maiden Matilda who said
oh you talk and you lie and you drink all our mead
now I think its high time that you lie down and bleed
and so then came slashing and clashing of steel
as the brave lass Matilda charged in full of zeal
and the braggart named Ragnar was boastful no more
when his ugly red head rolled around on the floor
Lmfaoooooo you caught me off guard with this comment
@Rick O'Shay talk to carlotta then beat him up
@@adamortiz4893 nah got killed by a stray arrow to the throat
Meanwhile in the background... *_OH, THERE ONCE WAS A HERO NAMED RAGNAR THE RED_*
I was sitting there for a second like "What the heck is that?" I thought someone walked in while he was recording.
@Reader Stuff thats wrong
@Reader Stuff It's Magnus the Nerd.
Who came riding to whiterun from ole rorikstead
Ragnar the Red exchanged places with the *Red*-guards!
Also: Magnus did nothing wrong!
"Saadia looks in her.. 20s, 30s?"
Saadia in vanilla game: *greying hair, paler face, mood lines showing a character older than young adult*
Me: Don't be fooled by a modded pretty face!
NeRethil Wolfsson she is also showing a lot more leg than I remember, even with mods lol
I'm pretty sure her hair is black or dark brown. It's not supposed to look grey.
They have 40 year old face adjustment option in vanilla skyrim if they wanted it to appear older according to game standards. A bit of push back on her age being taken like she is old but looks youthful well game mechanics functions built in and the developers choose not to use that setting maybe she is intended to be only 25-30 years old.
tbh her vanilla look was far better than the one he was using here :)))
he has bad mods, or maybe bad retexture mods :)
That's just the way vanilla faces are designed. She literally has the smallest possible number of rinkles in the vanilla editor.
If the Aldmeri dominion were to send someone to kill Saadia, they wouldn't send a band of redguard mercenaries. They'd send a lone, unassuming assassin. You know, the way the Thalmor sent a khajit woman after you in Riften.
And the Wood Elf guy if he survives the Thalmor embassy, even the Khajiit caravans rat out the assassin for been "Thalmor filth"
Or maybe the Dominion would hire a Dark Brotherhood assassin…?
@@james739123 Don't the Kajhit love the Thalmore for restoring the moons? At least that is what the Thalmore TOLD them they did.
@@Chrisfragger1 there will always be those that smell a rat, plus I doubt the Thalmor trear their subjects well in the Altmeri Dominion.
Riften, the most corrupt city in Skyrim, whose steward is in the Empire's pocket and ignores it's own "No Khajiit in city limits" policy? That Riften?
Kematu really does hit you with “Don’t be simpin’ king, your crown is gonna fall off”
PunkDisorder Kematu is the *true* Chad
@Arigato Senpai The chad dragonborn who gives Saadia to Kematu and then murders him.
The virgin Dragonborn who picked sides
@@wisemankugelmemicus1701 ez 1000g
@Krzychu 98 Killing Kematu gives skillpoints tho
@Krzychu 98 what if you are rolling an Altmer?
Sadadia: I know you're not one of them, please help me
Me a redguard wearing alik'r armor and my curved sword equipped: Are you sure about that?
Lmao!
You seen those warriors from Ha-
Oh. Forgive me.
"Sadadia"
“CurVeD swords!”
"curved sword" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
One thing for sure. They got those CURVED SWORDS
CURVED. SWORDS.
And curved babes :D
Markydaysaid is a goat
Well, I do like chocolate...
you sure thats not a d-ck joke?
She accuses them of being assassins, but do you ever see them assassinate anyone? They capture her alive with a paralysis spell, not to mention how upset and enraged Kematu gets if you kill Sadia. If he was an assassin why would he be upset that you killed his mark? You did his job for him.
Unless his job is to kidnap her for public execution
@@carbontooth true, that could also be possible.
@@carbontooth Then they aren't assassins.
but she ends up dead soo🤷🏿♂️
@@2face704 execution in hammerfell
Saadia: "Oh no they found me"
1 minute later: "I heard one of them is in jail"
1 minuite later: "I can't trust the guards"
Me: But they just arrested one? And you KNOW this.
Literally paused the video as soon as she said that 🤣
@@raikaria3090 Yeah.She says, "Guards and Jarls can be bought", but she has no qualms in trusting a complete stranger?
I think that’s just sloppy writing on Bethesda’s part
Probably
“She’s too young!” Maybe they should turn off their beauty mods. Remember that Delphine was an active Blade during the war, and could also pass as too young for that. Especially with certain mods.
I mean, the woman has greying hair (reminder, young-ish Redguards have pure black hair) and, in vanilla game, a paler face than body and the start of expressions lines... All signs of an older person in TES character creation (not Elder-old, but definetly not 20-ish)
Also the skimpier outfits are pretty yikes, even when you disregard how badly they clip through everything.
@@ZaynahZihoa Yep, so cringey on so many levels....
People don't tend to see less age differences among the Redguards, probably their complexion obscuring the wrinkles.
Delphine is canonically in her 50s
Kematu's final statement, that it isn't his decision what will happen to Saadia when they get back to Hammerfell, doesn't sound like the gloating of a villain, or even a mercenary. It sounds like someone who has seen justice done. That was enough for me. ='[.]'=
Raycheetah same same
He doesn’t send her back to hammerfell he kills her in Skyrim her burial urn is found in the hall of the dead in whiterun he is lying
@@Twilight24682 everyone has a burial urn, whenever someone is removed from the game it appears in the hall of the dead
Her urn only appears after that mission if you side with Kematu
Артём Савостин It’s not a bug once you side with Kematu her urn turns up in whiterun
The first thing Saadia does is manipulate you into thinking she needs your help before pulling a knife on you. She definitely does not seem like some innocent girl who simply spoke out against the Thalmor.
Meh, any enemy of the Thalmor is a friend of mine. 😋
@@aaronmicalowe Thalmor🍷🗿>>>>other peoples
@@vilgodz2628 my first encounter with them they attacked me on sight. Anyone who does that gets killed.
@@aaronmicalowe So you joined the Stormcloaks. That says plenty about your personality as is
@@OhNoTheFace Nope. Considered it but after listening to Ulfric chatting away to his military advisor, decided they were just as bad as the Imperials.
I usually side with Saadia, not because I believe her or anything...
as a hoarder I just really need multiple pairs of Scimitars
You can get those any time in game but siding with kematu is somewhat sensible and easy just avoid unnecessary time consume for small quest
Curved. Swords.
Bloodscythe, Soulrender, and Windshear are all I need tbh
Mood
Priorities.
Plot twist, both sides are lying and “saadia” actually just owes skooma money to the wrong people.
This is my guess as well. Neither is telling the truth, or at least not showing the full picture.
You pay this one, or this one will pay sellswords. You understand?
"Hard decision to be faced with" - just show me the gold
Your irony is almost more factual than the video itself. They are actually both lying, obviously, and this has nothing to do with Hammerfell or the Thalmor. Saadia probably stole a good amount of money from the guy after screwing him, he attempted to have her arrested by law, she fled, he followed with some lackeys, and there you have it. Both their stories are foolish and not well thought out. The guy here despite having some fair points, turns a blind eye to many obvious issues with his theory and makes up some reasons for Kematu's case that don't make any sense whatsoever. I did enjoy the video though nevertheless.
@@michealtm surely it’s related to Hammerfell cuz they can’t just happen to include it in their story even if they’re both lying.
Also, Saadia says "I spoke out publicly against the Dominion; I suspect that's why these men were hired to hunt me down.". The whole province of Hammerfell spoke out against the Thalmor, which is the reason they went to war. It wouldn't matter at all if Saadia was against the Dominion because everybody in Hammerfell feels the same way and the Aldmeri Dominion couldn't do anything as they're not allowed in the province.
That's why you hire assassins to go kill her from the outside.
@@hermonymusofsparta But the Thalmor wouldn’t care if she spoke out, because everyone else did. She would have no reason to flee if her story was true.
@@schrodingersmoth That makes absolutely no sense. They wouldn't care because "everyone else did"? What are you talking about? They're going around killing or torturing every single individual person In Skyrim who worships Talos under the empire's authority.
@@hermonymusofsparta I'm saying, according to her story, she was in Hammerfell when she spoke out about their Dominion. However, at their time, everyone in Hammerfell was speaking out against them. They Dominion would have no way to do anything to her even if they wanted to. To reiterate, if her story was true, *she had no reason to leave Hammerfell*
@@schrodingersmoth I know what you're saying but what you're saying doesn't make sense. You're just repeating yourself.
If the Thalmor cannot get into Hammerfell they're going to hire other people to get in for them to make an assassination. Your statement that everyone was speaking against them and Hammerfell is simply something you have made up. Yes the country is anti Thalmor, but that doesn't mean everyone in the country is speaking against them like she was. Obviously the implication is that she spoke out and was "louder" so to speak then the rest.
What doesn't make sense is that Kematu kills her in Whiterun hold if you choose to side with him because after the quest she shows up in the hall of the dead in Whiterun. And this is not simply a game mechanic because most NPCs do not end up in the hole of the dead. The developers had to specifically choose which NBC's would go into the hall of the dead when they died. Most NPCs that get killed just go to an unnamed area that cannot be accessed except for through console commands. This means the developer specifically chose her out to put in the Hall of the Dead as a clue to the quest.
One of many reasons I trust Kematu is that he doesn't immediately try to kill you, even after you ruthlessly slaughter his men. He says something to the effect of "Let us avoid unnecessary bloodshed. No one else needs to die here." If he were an assassin as Saadia says he is, he would not hesitate to spill as much blood as is necessary.
That's an interesting point, or he is just a master manipulator.
@@Lyu-Phy I feel like people are choosing to ignore that because they want to believe one side more over the other because of lore reasons. We don't know how much, if, or where in Hamerfell has been taken over by the Aldmeri Dominion from the inside rather than publicly in more recent times. A lot of time passes between games, and infiltration doesn't really take a thousand years. People are choosing to use past ES lore because that's all we know, when in reality they are forgetting how time has passed between those previous games, books, and other media. Saadia could have been lying too, but what about the warriors? How can we be sure Kematu isn't lying as well to gain our trust? Feels easier back then to trust one side, but I'm sure that games like God of War: Ragnarök would at least change how people feel about this quest.
In terms of Saadia's personality, imagine living most of your life on the run and then being called a liar and distrusted because the moment you're being found as a fugitive you act rash? Feels a little distasteful. But this quest is still up to player interpretation. If you think that she was lying then she was lying, and if you think he was lying then he was lying. The ending is what you choose to believe is the ending.
Why would an assassin spill blood if they could get you to willingly give up the person by being nice? Sounds like unnecessary trouble.
Especially since he has you dead to rights, with a squad of Allikir warriors flanking both his sides. You are at his mercy, and he STILL wants to avoid further bloodshed. That’s not an assassin, that’s a general.
That's utterly inane. You are a useful tool. Assassins aren't just murderhobos.
Saadia goes from "Oh no they found me!" to "One of them got arrested" in the span of a few seconds, she obviously already knew Klamatu was closing in on her.
That or it's just Bethesda being Bethesda
That line of logic sounds like Bethesda progressing the plot in their own.. unique way
I'm just gonna start calling the Alikir Apple cores and Kematu, Clamato.
she probably knew they where around but not the why they where there and if i was running away from someone i'd made sure that any news on someone from the very people who i ran from would be sent my way but also having to lay low can make news of the why harder to get but if someone gets arrested in your neck of the woods. a community as small as whiterun, i'd at least know who was locked up.
Its more like not every warrior is after hear soo of course she gets suprised when you tell her they ask about her
Also isn't it strange how Kematu gets upset if you kill saadia after leading her to him? If he was truly an assassin there to kill her, he'd appreciate the help and would have no need to go on pretending to be anything other than an assassin as you just killed his target in cold blood in front of him, but instead he just chastised you.
THANK YOU. I was waiting for someone else to bring this up.
OK, but just to play Devil's advocate here, it could be that the Thalmor wanted her delivered to them alive. I'm of the "Saadia is lying" camp, but that line of dialogue from Kematu doesn't prove anything.
@@FreshwaterSquid77 well, according to her they're assassins, so if you follow the double reward route(bug?) Saadia will attack you after the paralysis wears off. Is it a scripting bug _or_ is it that the "assassin" didn't kill her on sight, so she knows that she's been found out and is trying to get rid of the witness?
@@FreshwaterSquid77 Actually, it doesn't prove Kematu didn't lie, but it refutes the claim that Kematu might have actually killed Saadia after having taken her away, which is one of the biggest thing standing for Saadia in the community.
They could be seeking to extract information and to keep her alive
"Who will you trust?"
> Saadia
-Kematu-
~Choosing Saadia~
Game: "Lol Simp"
|Load Game|
"Who will you trust"
-Saadia-
> Kematu
~Choosing Kematu~
Game: "Lol Gay"
@Polarisque i killed them both too because i wanted a kill for the ebony blade lol
The roles are reversed for girls.
i killed kematu for CURVED SWORD
Lol cringe
Ah yes the two genders: simp and gay
My favorite memory of this questline is when I played a plodding Stormcloak who wasn't bright enough to figure out who was lying but did know one of them was, so he killed both to be sure he got the right one.
Usually get this quest really early in the game when I'm scrounging every piece of gold to buy a house asap so i kill both for the double payment.
average Stormcloak ngl
Incredible! I wish I was creative like this with my rps 🤣
I did something kinda like that where I sold saadia out but then saved her, which meant having to fight less of them rather than if I attacked their hideout, very useful in survival mode to save resources
I can respect that, not gonna lie
Saadia when you just try to talk to her: *traps you in her room and pulls out a knife, “WHO DO YOU WORK FOR?”
The redguard warriors when you kill everyone in the cave they are hiding and try to attack them:”we got off to a rough start, lets talk,”
Yeah, guess who I helped.
I mean, if she's indeed hiding from the Thalmor (considering Whiterun is neutral ground), she's right to be a little.. on edge if people start inquiring about her past
@@NWolfsson i see what you did there.
"We got off to a rough start" - Dammit Kematu, I just slaughtered my way through a dozen guys outside. I can't switch horses in mid-rampage, I'm on a roll here. Next time, maybe give out wanted posters instead of this need-to-know nonsense.
@@redaethel4619
Wanted posters would only tip the Thalmor off. And since Skyrim is currently subject to Thalmor patrols they could easily head over to the city and procure her whereas the Redguards aren't allowed in.
@@darken2417 At the same point tho, if Saadia is a thalmor spy why is she not with the Thalmor being protected and fearing for her life everyday instead?
You see those warriors from Hammerfell? They've got curved swords.
Curved.
Swords.
The only thing from Hammerfell curvier than the swords are the women. 1:38
I see you are a man of culture as well
@@virtuousmonarch843 haha. lol! :'D
That's for damn sure. Owwwooooo
The alikr warrior's *sword* is way curvier
The Ali’kir don’t behave at all like you’d expect for assassins. During the random encounter, they harass the redguard woman and ask her to come with them, where an assassin would just slit her throat or snipe her with an arrow. When you encounter them in the city, they are asking the guards to be let in, rather that just sneaking in one by one and killing her. Why go through all the trouble pretending to be warriors bringing her to justice when they could just kill her from the shadows?
They DID try to sneak in. That's why one got arrested.
@@Alizudo yes, because a very convincing Thalmor agent was inside the walls and had to be brought to justice.
Wdym kematu litterally said they weren't
FUCK ME I killed them. Tbh they killed Lydia and that made me too mad
Nikolo Kavacio well there only put her on her knees, you killed her since you hit her last.
I think you can also explain her remains showing up as actually just being a memorial made by her friends in Whiterun after she disappeared one day.
What friends? Do your friends make a grave for you if you disappear for a few days?
She calls the innkeeper Hulda, (think that’s her name) Mum. Likely she came to Whiterun at a younger age and was adopted by her. A mother would want a memorial regardless of remains.
@@NoName-mi8jsWell no, but I also don't live in a city surrounded by wolves, bandits, necromancers, bears, giants, sabtertooth tigers, and temperamental mammoths, soooo...
I also want to point out that Saadia says that killing Kematu will result in the assassins leaving but once you have killed Kemantu, the Alikir STILL show up around Skyrim looking for her.
I think that may be a Bethesda just not removing the stand in whiterun from there ai and for the others on the road they just left them as is too
@@Serge_Jackson yup, it's also a bug the SE and AE patched it
A lot of shit happens in Skyrim that people say isn’t supposed to happen
Lets turn this around:
If Saadia was truly a snitch. She would have had money yes? Now she is in Skyrim and she could have easily bought a house there and enjoy a retirement. She could have joined the thieves guild if she wasnt.
But she chose to stay in some inn and work there. Thats not something someone would do who has a crapload of gold
@@Captain_Cinnamonshe is on the run truth or not, unlike the dragon born who can 300,000,000 gold pieces eithout breaking a sweat, lot of gold is hard to carry and hide. She may have hidden it and is working as an inn girl to keep cover.
Well, here you go. Spend it wisely, and if I may... Don't allow yourself to be fooled by a pretty face. You're better than that.
Righto James
Some life advice right there
Kematu’s got a prettier face than Saadia tho, if he showed me that “curved sword” of his I’d do whatever he wanted 😍🤤
@@valkyrie5579 I agree 😍😍😍
Wait what
You changed your icon no more m'aiq
This quest really tests your knowledge on the lore of TES. First time playing I'd heard of the terrible Aldmeri Dominion, but had no idea they had no presence in Hammerfell. Why would Saadia run from the Aldmeri Dominion by escaping a country without their presence to a country where they freely roam the streets? That, and I was quite the white knight for a lady in peril.
And thats why 9 years later people are still obsessing over skyrim
They could be both telling the truth. Remember hammerfell was occupied for a while before the thalmor were pushed out. Is it so unbelievably that she spoke out within an occupied city before fleeing and the thalmor sent a warrior order after her? Remember the thalmor are really fucking good at divide and conquer and sowing disinformation.
Because if she stayed the civilians of the city would kill her
Just to clarify, were you simping for saadia?
@@lamb_link Yes, I was simping for Saadia
Kematu really being like 'don't get fooled by a pretty face. You're better than that. Keep your head up king, your crown is tilting'
I love this thanks for putting this in my head when I complete the quest
A little sweet-talk about how big a man you are and you be drooling all over his curved sword
Christ people don't realize how stupid they sound nowadays
Redguards HATE the thalmor. They refused to give land to the thalmor and even waged war with them which they won to sign a new agreement of their own. There's no way mere septims can outweigh that hatred.
Oh yes, there's more to this. Hammerfell does not have thalmor influence like Skyrim. So there's no reason she wants to *escape* from hammerfell. The fact that Skyrim instead has thalmor influence makes it even more dangerous for her if she was really hunted by the thalmor. Another thing is she is a member of a highly renowned house. She would have alot of protection and definitely enough to fight off a band of mercenaries. She had to abandon her family because they are after her too. She also said "slither back to *their desert* " meaning she does not recognize hammerfell as 'hers' anymore. Lastly the alikr warriors seem very angry instead of greedy when talking about Saadia. There's no reason to be angry about money of course. They must be hating saadia for some reason.
its a love qurrel smiley face
Two points:
First, Saadia might say "their desert" in reference to the actual Alik'r Desert, the home of the Alik'r warriors, which is only a portion of Hammerfell, and would make sense since she at least claims to be noblewoman and native of the coast city of Taneth. Looking down on the desert dwellers could be natural.
And hating the Thalmor and the Dominion doesn't prevent Ulfric Stormcloak from being considered a valuable Dominion asset by the Thalmor for the destabilizing effect his campaign to be High King of Skyrim has had on the Empire as a whole.
If the Thalmor are willing and able to exploit Ulfric and the Stormcloaks by going out of their way to antagonize anti-Imperial sentiments through the Talos ban, why can't a similar gambit be true with regard to the Alik'r?
Is it really unimaginable that the Thalmor leaked a list of alleged and actual accomplices to create resentments that will destabilize the southern reaches of Hammerfell in preparation for a new campaign?
Races don't have a hivemind. Who's to say a band of mercenaries aren't loyal to the Aldmeri Dominion, or at the very least their gold?
MinishMoosen it still doesn't make sense that she is hiding in a country that is occupied by the Thalmor she "opposes". If she truly opposed them she wouldn't have fled to a country under occupation, and would have simply stayed in Hammerfell.
@Blockheadfun
The Thalmor don't control all of Skyrim, and Whiterun is probably the safest city in the province for her, given that Heimskr proves all day, every day that the Thalmor hold no sway under Jarl Balgruuf.
If she'd stayed in Hammerfell, then she'd still be within arm's reach of the splinter band of Alik'r collaborators @MinishMoosen suggests; under their theory, she really might have a better chance of survival by running to a chaotic, war-torn province and using that chaos to get lost in the churn than by staying in a relatively stable province that's already her enemies' home turf.
Wouldn't it be funny if we can side with Thalmor and do this quest;
Saadia: "I spoke out publicly against the Dominion"
DB: "Hmm, did you?"
😂
"I think a friend of mine, Calcelmo would like to talk to you."
Besides, if she really did speak out against the Thalmor, who's to say they couldn't snatch her themselves like they did with Thorald? Yeah, think about that.
"Wouldn't it be funny if we can side with Thalmor and do this quest;" That wouldn't be 'funny', that would be Blasphemy! (The only good Thalmor is a dead Thalmor!)
@@jeremycraft2445 yeah we all know the thalmor are awful,
It was just a joke my fella
Pay attention to the conversation that you have with her upstairs. You walk up tell her about the Al Akir. She acts shocked "oh no they've found me" feigning surprise. Then she later mentions. "one of them got arrested sneaking into the city, you might start there".
She already knew about them finding her (and one of them being arrested) long before you had spoken with her, proving that she was acting when you mentioned them. She's inconsistent.
She shouldn't be shocked hearing that they know where she is when she already knows that they are skulking around and getting arrested in Whiterun.
In all fairness, that could just be Bethesda being Bethesda. I would like to think that it was an intentional hint though
Good points! I chalked up her lame "oh no" to the lame voice acting, but I like this explanation much more.
Is it possible that she didn't think they had already found her, but we're instead just searching the city to see if she could be there? Where as later They definitely know she's there when you talk to her.
Either way, she's totally guilty.
It could just be that someone told her to protect her after they overheard a guard speaking, though.
@@mimmikibilly She's still lying to the pkayer by implication, then. Acting like she doesn't know the Alik'r are in the city, then telling you they are.
I still love that Saadia has the balls to blatantly lie to your face if you're a Redguard lol
Saadia was always too evasive in the conversations. Kematu seemed like he was willing to explain everything you'd care to know (limited by Skyrim's dialogue of course).
lmao thalmor ain't shit in hammerfel as well
Also I guess if you must lie like that being vague is much better because it means less likely to be proven wrong tho as so often happens being vague is almost always a reason to suspect a person. Not only that, but also to be specific and particularly significantly so takes a lot of time and effort and having to costantly think of have I been consistent with that fact or this. Its easier to keep your head down, dont say much, and if asked why your face looks terrible, you could answer "domestic violence" or "got attacked on the way here" or something. It seems plausible and no one would think to probe for more info.
Once you've slaughtered your way through the cave, sure. Before that you get nothing but "you don't need to know, there's money if you help us."
El Diablo Baptiste, keep in mind that the warriors never explained at first when it was vital why they were looking for her
@@plasmawolf7960 so? it's not up to them it's up to keematu who gives info like that away
"The most well established and powerful gang if assassins in tamriel? The dark brotherhood"
*the morag tong will remember that*
As I recall, by the time of Skyrim the Morag Tong has been disbanded.
Even then, the Morag Tong will not have much of an influence in Skyrim compared to the dark brotha-hood.
@@muffinman2546 the dark borther hood also didn't had much influence either.
do people forget this was the last back water sanctuary? if anything how astrid ran the brotherhood was nothing but a scary boogie man at the time. anything that made the brotherhood dangerous was gone. heck that's WHY astrid agreed to the assassination of tidus mede II, to gain that infamy that the brotherhood once had, at first. she was willing to let the dark brotherhood be nothing but a bottom of the barrel scoundrels that sometimes kill people, rather then a feared and hunted organisation that had any say in the world.
the dark borther hood was basically on death bed in skyrim
@@MikePhantom I know all that.
You are just furthering the point that the morag tong can have any influence at all.
@@muffinman2546 well they merely "disbanded" and can assemble at an orders notice. they most likely still have many agents influencing thing behind the curtain in morrowind
This is a really detailed explanation. Thank you!
I always believed Kematu's story because of two facts:
1) When confronting Saadia she claims that she didn't know about the Alik'r being in the vicinity, but then a few sentences later she says that she knows about one being arrested in Whiterun. So she's lying at least at that instant.
2) Saadia claims that Kematu and his men were assasins and wanted to kill her. But Kematu does in fact NOT kill her but stuns her instead. If he were an assasin he could easily kill her right on sight and explain that she was already sentenced to death or something similar. He wouldn't need to make up a story about bringing her back and not harm her on the way just to get the Dragonborn on his side.
Part of point one I just chalk up to the writing quality myself. Lots of quests kind of have that snap neck change and such. Like say, after you become a werewolf in the Companions. Aela critizes a fellow Companion for having run off without a Shield-Sibling... then immediately sends you in to the fortress of the people that killed that veteran Companion on your own without a Shield-Sibling at your side.
Honestly though in this I think that he has put too much effort on "All members of a race are exactly the same" and ignored points brought up about the Great War in the game. That the Thalmor's invasion wasn't just them powering through things. They had a fifth column of agents and turncoats across the Empire when they invaded.
This does actually fit well with, well, both sides. Saadia being one of those fifth column members that was inside Hammerfell, a noble who was bribed, threatened, convinced, etc, fits for why after the conflict she'd have to flee, and had to hide out as one of MANY traitors that would have existed.
But that's the thing. There would have been MANY traitors in that war. Not just one like he tries to frame up in the video of only Saadia in all of Hammerfell was anything but staunchly resolved against the Dominion. So why is it so insane that among a war where half of the population of Hammerfell (by mention in game) turned to the Dominion like some 20 or so people (Max number really of Kematu's band considering their presence in the province) couldn't have been either?
I could see a similar situation where it was this band of warriors who betrayed the city. Opened up the defenses. Let the Dominion in. Saadia having to flee as her city was lost and her loyal guards were on the enemy's side at least in part.
And this explains Kematu's actions. Skyrim does extraditions. We see this in the Thieves' Guild Special Mission for Whiterun after all. They have no problem handing over people to legitimate authorities, even if they don't like that authority as a point of honor, in general. Skyrim's Nords are not noted for having any real distaste of or hatred towards the now independent province of Hammerfell. So why did Kematu's band have to sneak into a city instead of just ask the guards and hand over this "She's a wanted traitor" writ? Nords eat up that "Punish someone for Treason" stuff.
But if its murkier.... if say Kematu's people are trying to spin a story of "Oh no we weren't the traitors, Imam was!" now that the political situation doesn't favor the Thalmor and they're afraid someone might pin the fall of the city on them instead? That suddenly makes the skullduggery and skulking about make sense. Why they want her alive, so they can basically torture confessions out of her and have that show trial.
I just think it's far less cut and dry than the video makes out and leans too heavily on the idea that all redguards ever are a hive mind without independent decisions outside of Saadia.
Another two good points are that, in lore, the Alik'r harassed Thalmor forces while they were retreating form Hammerfell. Why would the Thalmor hire them specifically ?
And in that train of thought, why would the Thalmor need to hire Alik'r warriors to pursue someone in Skyrim, when they have more than enough spies and infiltrators in the kingdom to do that job way more easily ?.
For my part, I always just figured Saadia was guessing they were hired by the Thalmor. She's been on the run after all. She probably doesn't know what actually is up in her home kingdom and all.
If, to her point of view, Kematu's warriors were turncoats for the dominion that sold out the city and Saadia had to flee for speaking out against the Dominion as she says... she might very well figure Kematu hunting her down is due to the Dominion.
But if Kematu basically is just trying to prop up Saadia as a show trial to cover up his own misdeeds (I'm reminded of Duras in Star Trek: The Next Generation, where he blames Worf's father for a betrayal he in fact did, and even has a show trial set up to give Worf Discommendation and dishonor to hammer it home)... why would Saadia know that he wasn't working with the Dominion any more as she tries to hide?
More so, if the Alik'r were really Thalmor assassins, why wouldn't them be let into Whiterun? After all, Whiterun at that moment is an Imperial city. They're 'allies' so to speak
Thing is if you gave Saadia to Kematu, her body will appear after few days in Whiterun cemetery.
But what if Kematu is telling us that we shouldn’t fall for his pretty face?
PLOT TWIST!
He meant that *FOR SURE!!!*
Saadia is lying, why would she escape from hammerfell from the thalmor? Hammerfell isn't under thalmor rule unlike skyrim.
Yes but the thalmor what utter control of everything. Including hammerfell eventually and what makes getting control easier then sending someone after a royal that dosnt like the thalmor. (But I do agree with you kinda strange)
You make a good point there, I forgot about that
I mean if I was going to take over a place ruled by a monarchy the first people I'd weed out would be anyone who spoke out against me especially of high importance and reward those who speak in my favour
@@blackplaguegaming4255 But on that note, if Kematu was an assassin, why would they go through all the trouble of arresting her for a trial? The Thalmor wouldn't care about that, they'd just want her head.
Assassins don't bring quarry into authorities. Alive, anyway.
Besides, the Alik'r would be Redguard loyalists, and most certainly wouldn't aid Elven interlopers on their homeland.
Jaime Moyano don’t the Thalita have influence/allies in other regions, though?
If you play a redguard woman with a facial scar you get unique dialogue from both Kematu and the warriors.
Warrior random encounter scenario.
-"Imani we have finally found you! You are returning back with us to hammerfell to pay for your crimes"
then they become hostile.
if you had a facial scar but not on the left cheek further dialogue occurs
-"Brother wait , that's not the right scar"
-" I see, you are right brother it isn't, you there move along"
Attempting to talk with them again just gives you the option to ask questions but they respond with
-"move along" along with "hmm","yes" and "alright then"
when fight through the bandit camp to meet kematu he will say the following when you first meet
-"stay your hand warrior"
-"My men told me about seeing someone resembling who we were looking for but the scar is not in the right spot so you are not her"
the rest is the same dialogue.
Saadia: I spoke out against the dominion back in Hammerfell.
Me, activating a shrine of Talos in the presence of a Thalmor justiciar: Oh, what a crime.
My Thalmor PC staring at Heimskr screaming about Talos: 🗿
@@eclecticwitch4515 How'd you do a thalmor playthrough? I'm curious
@@ChronicNewb Harassing Stormcloaks, siding with the Imperials on the Civil War questline and the Season Unending quest. You can also use Hooded Thalmor Robes to blend into the Party quest and just sneak through the last bit, either torturing the guy or setting him free (i set him free just for ✨character development✨) Choosing every obnoxious dialogue option, and also becoming Archmage of Winterhold to depose Ancano since he's technically a part of a splinter group and a threat to the dominion. There's also a quest in Markarth you can do that would get a Thalmor agent on your side.
Can you tell I've been playing this for the past 10 years? lol
Bro. I was gunna go to bed. But no Mr. Sherlock Dragonborn has to upload another compelling, alliteration filled video.
Lol!
Not only that but it's an hour long
Same here
I find this funny because in my time zone this was uploaded at like 7:00 a.m.
@@thegreatskinkpriest8104 yeah and it was 6:00am for me I was just going to go to bed lol
"I sided with you and you do not have a pretty face"
Come on now man. Say what you like about Kematu, he's pretty damn dashing.
I'd smash
That jaw line don't lie, and neither do i
@@jonathanpryzby4029 my gay bff is obsessed with Isan. Calls him his chocolate daddy.
I loved rough desert warriors hiding out in bandit caves. I side with him every time. Too bad he doesn't try to entice us with "baser needs". XD
@@fnamelname9077 I'm sure there's a mod for that. :P
You could also say that when saadia goes missing from whiterun, the people who live there may just assume she has been killed, having no reason to think otherwise and so just placed her a burial urn (I personally always thought kematu was telling the truth)
Wow didn't think anyone else thought that as well👍
BFM Trooper Or that she was executed in Hamnerfell and they sent her remains to her adoptive family (ie the inkeeper of Whiterun to whom she was like a daughter) since no one in Hamnerfell wanted them.
@@Comandate7 To me it's more likely that the people of Whiterun set up the urn to remember Saadia rather than the remains being sent back. Here is why. If the warriors were risking a great deal just to cross the border into Skyrim (a place warring with the Thamlor) as Camel eloquently pointed out, why would the Redguard risk going back to deliver the remains? It doesn't seem like something worth doing. I could see dropping the ashes at the border, but not going any further. Maybe they got the almighty Courier to deliver the remains to Whiterun.
@Ryan Bushell I know that but we can always find a reason to explain it to us in game
She was hiding at an inn if I remember correctly, so she might have had quite a few friends.
Hot Take:
Kematu is telling the truth, but is wrong + Saadia is also telling the truth but is also wrong.
I feel like we skipped over the part where the Thalmor somehow made contact with an enemy noble (or vice versa) and were like, "Yeah we will totally pay you for your services and not harm you in any way."
Those scars are from the Thalmor 100%.
She THINKS the Alik'r are assassins because she's paranoid.
She may or may not have revealed secrets during torture but regardless everyone in Hammerfell THINKS she gave them up. (Also, they never mention what kind of secrets or how it lead to their downfall). When she flees Hammerfell she is fleeing from Hammerfell citizens that assume she sold them out, and she assumes THEY are Traitor Hammerfellers trying to capture her so the Thalmor can finish the job.
From this perspective, both choices are the correct choice.
Either she stays where she feels she is safe and lives out her life as a cook, or she goes home for trial and is found not guilty. The End.
I like this take a lot. The only hole I can see is that aren't the Alik'r famous in Hammerfell for being warriors, not assassins? And I believe they also fought against the Thalmor but I'm rusty on this lore. Rewatching as I'm scrolling comments
The only application of brain here. It's doesn't need to be her being paranoid about Alik'r being assassins, but she could easily have had guards bribed by Aldmeri agents to bring her for torture. I keep telling, that human mind is a very fragile computer we have prone to overcompensate and over-conform errors. She's easily a torture victim, which is about similar traumatic experience to rape victims, which we understand much better and would also explain this story.
@@enbeast8350 It's very hard to build a name. But it takes one person to undermine it.
I'm sorry, but Saadia would not be found Not Guilty when she gets back to Hammerfell. She would be executed as a traitor to satisfy the public outcry.
The Dragonborn was going to be executed for simply crossing the border into Skyrim illegally, why would someone like Saadia be given any greater leniency?
@@enbeast8350Like the guy up top said, she's paranoid, when your paranoid your not thinking rational, due to her paranoia she thinks the Thalmor are still trying to come after her.
Saadia's burial urn is empty, thus there's no remains in it. It was put there as a gesture by Hulda or someone along those lines maybe.
The urn might be empty because the player looted the body.
@@Satheo05
Burial Urns in the game contain whatever was on the person's body when it despawns
It's likely a "My coworker went missing. Considering Dragons are a thing... We have to expect the worst." And put it up assuming she died."
Someone in my town went missing years ago, still no body. His coworkers keep an empty urn with his picture. Its really sad.
As an explanation for her urn appearing in Whiterun, you can just explain it off as her going missing and the people of Whiterun assuming she's dead and giving her a ceremonial funeral. Her urn is empty.
Id imagine it's common practice, rites must be preformed for all dead whether you have a body or not.
Or.. her ashes may have been sent back to Whiterun after her execution because they didn’t want someone who betrayed their people to be buried in their homeland. Would be quite disrespectful if you ask me.
But why would they care in the first place if her ashes were returned anywhere? Just dump them in the ocean and be done with it, they have no obligation to wherever she called home after her treason act to her ORIGINAL homeland. I agree that the urn is empty, no ashes are in it anyways, it was just ceremonial for the people of Whiterun who cared that she went missing.
Best and most simplistic answer as to why she has an urn.
@@Crpz nah bro, it appears too quickly for travel to hammerfell, the trials, the execution, and the travel back to whiterun. Not to mention the probable astounding amount of bureaucracy involved in accomplishing that. The ceremeony withing witherun is more likely. Besides, who in hammerfell would care about her? For all we know she could just be thrown to be scavenged by animals or impaled in a stake.
Bro what armor mod you running? Saadia dressed like James Charles at Coachella
This is my favorite comment to exist
Yeah what the f*** is right lmao
Probably "Killer Keos skimpy CBBE"
If you get it, also get the fix for it
I think in development of Skyrim, it was originally planned that the game would take place sooner after the war.
Not only Sandia & Kematu, but many references and pieces of dialogue make it feel like the war was more recent. The same with Ulfic's age and others who fought in the war.
For me Skyrim should have been set 10 years after the great war (5 years after Hammerfell war) and no more.
It would help things make more sense, particularly Ulfrichs timeline, instead of waiting 20 years after incident of Markarth to challenge Torigg, would have made sense if it was 5-10 years.
@@jamiemckell34 makes sense
I don't think anybody in Hammerfell would waste the postage to send a dead traitor's body to their last known address. I feel like you nailed it with the whole "bug" thing.
Or maybe Kematu is lying and they just killed her.
@@NoName-mi8js How is that more likely than Skyrim having a bug?
It seems to me the most obvious evidence against Saadia is right at the beginning of the video. When you randomly come across the alak'r warriors accosting a redguard woman in the middle of nowhere, they tell her to come with them. Why would they do that if they were sent to assassinate her? While it's possible they were being careful and wanted to verify her identity first, simply telling her to come with them to what was most certainly a death sentence just doesn't logically follow. There wouldn't be any way she would come peacefully if she knew she was going to die anyway. However if she knew she was going back to stand trial, asking her to come peacefully makes a lot more sense and matches the character for mercenaries trying to do everything above the board.
If they were assassins, I don't think the smart move would have been to confront her. Assuming they didn't just kill her outright without verifying her identity, I imagine they would observe her from a distance, possibly follow her to her home and send for Kematu to make sure. I don't know. They're certainly assholes but they don't seem interested in murder. They're whole demeanor tells me they were going to take her somewhere and interrogate her. And I can't imagine that conversation going "Are you Saadia?" "Yes." *STAB*
That is a great point!
They take her to hammerfell to execute her. They’re not out to assassinate her.
There's also the fact that they know she trusts the Dragonborn so they could have just asked the Dragonborn to kill her for them. Send a warrior with the Dragonborn to make sure the job is done too. If they just wanted her dead, they would either ask the Dragonborn or get the Dark Brotherhood to do it. They clearly have the money to share the reward with you on site and not wait until it's over.
There's so many ways they could have her killed but instead they want her alive. Well not just want, their whole mission is to capture her alive. If she's dead, it's over and they fail their mission.
Also she's the only one in the quest who asks you to kill and to kill multiple people. That to me says she's not a good person. If she wasn't guilty, she'd ask you to convince them she's already dead or something but she jumps right to killing them.
Before I knew the lore on my first ever playthrough, I went with Sadia because there's no reason to believe she'd lie, after knowing the lore and being more versed in the ES universe, there's no doubt in my mind she's guilty and I always have her captured. Also the Redguards hate the Thalmor and anyone who hates the Thalmor are good in my books!
7:37 Given the fact that she literally said "drag me back to hammerfell for an execution" right after calling them assassins, I dont think you point is very valid
@@chia-haochou8102 Assassins don't drag people back for executions. That's a job for law enforcers. Soldiers or mercenaries, not assassins.
I like that Kematu basically tells you at the end "don't be a simp". :D
Words to live by.
He is my man.
Facts
No SIMPING! NO E-GIRLS!
Saadia: all men are kings!
Kematu: if he breathes, HES A SIIIIIIMP!
21:15 If you want to skip the mission walkthrough and go straight into the lore
Careful. He's a hero.
King
You truly are the dragonborn
The mission walkthrough is fun though.
Chad
Yesterday I did this quest way too late in the game. Details:
- Quest for finding the ring for an alchemy lady in Dawnstar was taken earlier than Kematu/Saadia quest, and it targeted the same cave (I think there should be several possible locations)
- Then Saadia quest was completed in favor of Kematu. Saadia was left alive and captive.
- After some time I completed ring quest and following further into the cave, I found all the Alik'r including Kematu, dead.
Dunno whether this is a bug or cut sequence from early iteration of the quest development, but this leaves some room for speculations, that Saadia actually managed to talk the bandits into massacring the Alik'r and fled.
I did this quest by handing Saadia to over to Kematu and later discovered this cabe randomly and saw Kematu and all his men standing ready for a fight but weren’t hostile to DB.
Probably a bug in a game that's just a bug in itself, but I really like the interpretation that Saadia convinced the bandits to turn on the Ali'Kir
When I did the quest and sided with Kematu, I found him much later just chilling in the cave all alone when I was sent there by another quest. And I was a Redguard myself. Extremely disappointed there's literally no changes in the dialogue if you are a Redguard. Like when the guards comment the warriors from hammerfell got curved sword... Talking to me, a Redguard, having a curved sword on me... Like I was right there dude.
I like how at first she's like "oh no, they've found me" like she was totally surprised that they had come to Skyrim... but then she's like "Oh yeah, I heard one of them was just arrested trying to sneak into the city" hmmm
That's Bethesda writing for you
Or she just put 2 and 2 together.
@@JohnZ117 Or she's lying.
@@raikaria3090 Anything to say not said already? Before and after the quest, she doesn't act like someone who was bribed to betray.
@@JohnZ117 What does a person who was bribed to betray act like to you?
Kematu: don't fall for a pretty face
Me: bold words coming from that pretty face 😘
makes since why i trust you since your as ugly as me
Sus
Kematu is pretty tho 😉😘
@@szymanowski7 Especially with the mods used in the video 🥵
I saw emerald green eyes and I was like……
( ͡❛ ₃ ͡❛)🤍
Kematu and Saadia: "We have to figure out who's lying!"
Me, killing both of them: *You will never arrive at the truth*
Same I've killed both my last few playthroughs lol
a truly golden experience
usually do that but it still ends up favoring the reguar city sure there no execution but she dies for free
skyrim speedrun no foreigners%
Requiem
If kematu was an assassin then I don't think he would get too upset for saadia death. He could take body back and still get rewarded for it
Have you ever tried to carry a woman's corpse for 1,000 miles over a mountain range? If only it were so simple.
@@userequaltoNull I mean horse and carrage
@@userequaltoNull
Death stranding lol
He would if he was hired to bring her in for Thalmor interrogation, to use her as a hostage against her family, or the reward required her being brought in alive for full payment. That is the bigger problem with Kematu though that he can't produce any paperwork to back up his claims.
It could of been alive only kind of contract.
The Chad Kamatu vs. The Simp Dragonborn
kill everyone
Kematu ends up dead. Also he's more a MGTOW than a chad
I told them id bring her to the stables i rushed ahead of her an killed them took their money an let her pay me 300 as well. They only pay out 100 gold ...cheap bastards.
I helped both😂
I suspect neither of them is who they claim to be and their conflict has nothing to do with the Dominion. Saadia's story doesn't make sense, obviously. But would actual Alik'r warriors, known for their honor and loyalty, hire bandits for protection? Would they abandon a brother in arms? I don't think so. And if Saadia really sold her city out to the Aldmeri, wouldn't she go to them for protection? My guess is that they're either from two rival criminal groups, or Saadia really is a noblewoman, but Kematu was hired not by the elves, but by a rival house.
Why would they both accuse the other of working for the Dominion? If they're outlaws, telling the truth to a stranger would be pretty stupid for obvious reasons. If it's a conflict between two noble houses from a distant land, there's a risk the Dragonborn would side with the other one, or just not care. They want to paint the other side as an obvious villain, and the Aldmeri Dominion, being universally hated in both Skyrim and Hammerfell, is a good choice.
Well, it could be no establishment would take them in so they had no choice
What could they do when no hold lets entry to them and no one even listens to their story? Also the Aldmeri cunts are all over Skyrim, so if they hold up in a place that has connections to those cunts, they are risking their lives for no reason!
The enemy of their enemy is their temporary friend...
Can I just kill both lol
Saadia says that they are assasins sent from the thalmor. Now if they were sent behalf on Thalmor they would definitely be let inside the city. Why would they hide for example that their working under Thalmor they wouldnt! So that she lies is why i pick alikr side. They may be mercenaries but they are atleast serving under Hammerfell. I do think that Alikr helps the resistance since Kematu mentions it. So since they fight against thalmor their obviously my pick
@@mathiasaaron6945 they both lie. Alkir says they want to capture her alive, but you can later find out that they kill her.
They are both lying and it probably does indeed have little to do with the Dominion or the war.
As such i usually side with the chick cause she is legit scared and has no intention to kill anyone, unlike the other side.
Bethesda who created a quest without deeper meaning:
Camelworks: *52 minutes of brutal, high quality, historical and detective investigation*
There's no way this quest was without deeper meaning, bethesda seems to like to put "hint quests" in there games that relate to the plot of the next game in the series, see the synth quest in Fallout 3. Id be willing to put money on this being skyrims "hint quest" because of the implications of the outcome. No matter who's lying it means that even after the great war there is a thalmor presence in hammerfell, which seems to clearly be where the next game is gonna be set.
This side quest literally is like one of 10 quests that are more interesting then the usual "Fetch this object for me" or "Kill this bandit leader for me," and you act like its an uninteresting boring ass quest *Facepalm*
@@shadysam7161 It is uninteresting. They don't give the players enough choices or information to work with and the most talked-about "evidence" that are given appear *after* the quest has been completed... If it was a game like The Witcher 3, they would have provided more information on the situation in Hammerfell (in the actual quest), allowed the player to take a neutral position and hidden clues around the area for the curious player to find.
*Don't underestimate Bethesda!*
@@legendofFranktheTank Have you seen how Bethesda handles their lore?
I'm a few years late, but another point is that when you side with Kematu, you may get a random encounter where some Thalmor from the dominion are sent to kill you, one of them having a note saying that you have interrupted their plans, and need to be killed.
That could be from any number of things, unless someone sleuthed out that this quest specifically was the trigger
The Thalmor Execution Squad is level related, not bound to any quest
@@aotaru someone contracted the Dark brotherhood on me the other day do you know what that's about?
@Mateo Hodge You actually start the game with a dark contract bounty. This random encounter can happen at any time
Does that mean Saadia is with the Thalmor?
An interesting theory could be that Saadia's scars were inflicted by the Thalmor while torturing her and that she finally broke under the torture and gave up the information that lead to the fall of Taneth in the war. So, she was an unwilling traitor and this is why she is on the run and hiding as she did technically commit treason.
Same as with Ulfric - except Saadia doesn't seem interested in leading an insurrection in Hammerfell. She just wants to leave it all behind her.
But her fortune, all the money she had, doesn't make sense right?
I like this.
I feel like if that was true though, she would have told us that. If you were on the run from the Alik'r, and wanted to convince a stranger of your innocence, which would sound more convincing; "I spoke out against the Aldmeri Dominion," or, "The Thalmor tortured information out of me that led to Taneth being taken. I had no choice, they were torturing me. That's how I got these scars. And now Hammerfell blames me and wants to bring me to justice." It makes sense she's living in hiding for that reason, but she seems desperate and is willing to put her faith in the player character. Why lie?
Although now that I think about it, I think you could be right, and maybe there's a reason for her not telling us that, despite the fact she is letting her guard down with us: the hatred for the Aldmeri Dominion in Skyrim is so commonplace that people think that working with them in any way deserves punishment. They could be unsympathetic to the fact it was tortured out of her.
Mallory Spencer then why not say: “they confused me for an Traitor, who sold Hammerfell out to the Aldimery.”
That would make her a lot more sympathetic and not risk losing credibility from someone who is a bit more worldly than Ulfric.
Here is what I think. She did sell out her people, but either the Thalmor broke their end of the deal by not protecting and her identity got somehow leaked. Or maybe the info she sold was so niche that the mere existence of it basically broke the disguise. Or maybe she did flee somewhere with more Thalmor sympathizers and but was found out anyways.
After all, if I were to sell my people out, I’d at least make sure that I won’t have to hide as a bar wench in a city in the middle of nowhere on the other side of the continent. I’d live it up big on the Thalmors bill.
"and stepped through timelines by moving at strange angles"
Even Bethesda's lore is buggy
But it's not canon, a writer who got out of Bethesda decided to keep writing lore, but it isn't canon as clearly stated by the Elder Scrolls team.
Fun fact: the prophecy of dragons returning to Skyrim was written by Michael Kirkbride after he left Bethesda. This means the whole game is based on a fanfic by the former lore writer.
@@ishashka Bethesda appreciates Kirkbride, they're still on good terms with him, so they keep the things they think are canon and that don' conflict with the lore.
Kirkbride also makes many wacky takes on the world, like technological advancement in the 5th era, you don't need technology when you have magic.
@@sieghardtofcatarina7827 *cough cough* Dwemer *cough cough*
@@cool9229 They don't want to use magic because using it would mean depending on forces superior to theirs, and they don't like that.
They should have called the Inn in Windhelm "the Mannered Bear"
But I guess they named it "bannered mare" because Whiterun's symbol is a horse, no? It makes more sense tbh.
@@DCapybara I said windhelm. It would have been a funny in game joke
@@TeslaRifle Oh shit, didn't read that thoroughly, sorry man lol. But I guess yeah it would be great, as Windhelm's symbol is a bear too.
Implying the Bearish Nords have Manners
big bren tim
My theory is that they are like Ulfric, they both think they are working against the thalmor by trying to get each other dead, but in fact the thalmor actually want them to kill each other
Wouldn't say that's a theory, moreso a different perspective.
I'd say this is canon, due to how we see the Thalmor operate canonically, which is having as few loose ends as possible, while letting their enemies deal with each other.
she is not working against the thalmor. claims to be running away from hammer fell because of the thalmor yet everyone in hammerfell denies and fights against thalmor influence so why would she need to be running.
and assuming her lie was truth, thalmor would send actual assassins and know where she is, they wouldn’t need a squad of hammerfell soldiers still trying to find her.
@@chokonnit7337 I'm a bit late to this thread, but I think the original comment is implying that both Saadia and Kematu are telling the truth, but that they are both being played by the Thalmor, just like Ulfric was played by the Thalmor in killing Torygg. Maybe Saadia belongs to a Redguard faction that believes the Hammerfell government/military (Alik'r) have become corrupt and have started working for/with the Thalmor (even though this might not be the case at all) and she was led to believe that her actions would free Hammerfell from this conspiracy. So, while Saadia did sell out Hammerfell, she did so with the belief that she was doing the right thing. Not saying this is the truth or canon, but it is a different perspective in Saadia's favor.
That would be possible, given the Thalmor were gaslighting Ulfric into thinking, he provided information that helped them in the war. Thus I wouldn't put it past them to frame somebody who was speaking against them as responsible for a Redguard military loss.
Another in-lore explanation for Saadia's remains: After her disappearance, they sent out a small search for Saadia, came up empty, and presumed her dead. The urn doesn't actually hold her remnants, it's ceremonial.
That was always what I assumed, too.
I used to take Kematu's side during my first playthroughs
but then puberty hit me like a truck
I hear you.
It be like that
Grew up with manipulative women. Didn't trust her. Especially when the Redguards weren't trying to infiltrate the city.
@@wesleytakahashi5334 >grew up with manipulative women
Ah, so you were born post-1980?
@@Aqueox 75
Considering the Urn is empty I think that the people of Whiterun noticed that Saadia disappeared and didnt come back and they assumed she died and put an urn in the Hall of the Dead out of respect for a face that worked prominently in the city. Most if not everyone in Whiterun would have seen her and known here if they go to the Bannered Mare
Best answer.
It being an empty cenotaph makes the most sense.
that makes a lot of sense, to bad we can't look inside the urn.
Exactly - as far as everyone is concerned, she was last seen bolting out of the city before disappearing. In a province as dangerous as Skyrim, I can't imagine too much help is held out for people who just end up missing one day, especially if they were last seen leaving the relative safety of a Hold Capital...
Also in relation to what some the player will chose, the quest is called "In my time of need" which feels a lot more like it is referring to helping Saadia in her time of need
It can also be interpreted as Kamatu asking you for help since the Ali'kir can't get into the city. A less likely interpretation of the title of the quest, but still an interpretation someone could make, nontheless
Since 2011, Ive always had the idea that this quest was simply a foreshadow for Elder Scrolls 6. And as time goes on, I feel this to be more and more likely
..and if TES VI were revealed to be about Argonia, you'd surely claimed the same about the Sleeping Tree xD Or about Khajiit caravans.. they'd simply left some reminders that there is actually a wide world outside Skyrim. A nice thing, since with their tendency to shrink the area of playable world in every next game of the series, I feel a bit claustraphobic in Skyrim and worry a lot about Hammerfell.
how cool you turned out to be right and looking back it seems so obvious with all the red guards and men from highrock who were highlighted throughout the game. you could argue that argonians were also given several missions of their own though you had to search them out a bit more, they were not waiting for you at the gate of the first hold you are sent to. it's been pointed out that bethesda seems to like doing this with their games. giving subtle hints as to were the next one might be.
@@artwithalexander5359 What about a Bosmer in Riverwood, since he's also featured in a quest?
@@sholahverassa8582 what, the love triangle? or the dark elf bandit that basically introduces us to the claw keys? both really minor as the whole triangle can be solved without leaving the town. another point, it is only a town and the quest is easily missed, not forcibly introduced like by a side quest waiting for you at the city gate screaming "hey, listen to our loud conversation before we stop you in the street to give you a side quest". unless you go and actually talk to the elf you would never know he had a quest.
@@artwithalexander5359 Still not an argument.
1) Khajiit caravans can be found travelling all over Skyrim, to most of the hold capitals. You can't miss them either.
2) Dunmer got a whole DLC, you can't hope to finish Dragonborn without running into a bunch.
3) Reachmen are basically Bretons and you get a quest with them as soon as you enter Markarth
4) Thalmor are among the main antagonists of the game, they attack you screaming louder than any Whiterun guards, you can't avid them on your walkthrough, and as such a major force aimed at destroying the world, their homeland would have made an awesome background for the next game.
I repeat again, now when we know what the next game will be, we can surely find a lot of "proof" that Bethesda was putting into Skyrim, but if they were to choose another province, you would have just found another event as such "proof". The defining feature of all the prophecies is that the are too muddy to understand until something happens, and then somebody will surely find a way to "interprete" them in a desired manner.
Honestly I always assumed Kematu was telling the truth for the simple reason that if Sadia were on a thalmor hitlist they wouldn't need some redguard sycophant to hunt them in Skyrim. The thalmor move freely in imperial-supporting lands in Skyrim (I realize Whiterun is neutral until you pick a side but they side with the empire and presumably part of remaining neutral would involve allowing free travel to supporters of each side) and are already not only actively hunting traitors and enemies to their cause but go out of their way to persecute random talos worshippers within of their own resources and volition. Why would they bother to outsource the hunting of this one dissident to a group of mercenaries who cannot even enter major settlements in the region who then have to outsource help to those who can when they could instead just walk into whiterun and drag her out of the bannered mare unchallenged?
Basically the only two options are "Sadia is lying" and "Bethesda writers are incompetent and their works contradictory".
In my play throughs, I usually am pro Dominion, so I side with who I am told is Dominion. It leads to me killing the assassins when I lead Saadia to them.
Both of your final statements are simultaneously true.
@@christophershell7564 ew
Nah Bethesda writers are incompetent
@@christophershell7564 ew
"I'm thirsty for some jugs but it's got nothing to do with drinks."
*Speech 100*
*eye rolls*
*Pickpocet 100* is better. Sneak up behind her at the market and steal all her clothes.
Saadia to Carlotta: "Why is everyone laughing?"
Carlotta: *"snerk!"*
Bonus points if you have CBBE and physics mods active.
Yes, I've had too much mead right now...
"I'm part Redguard myself. Guess which part!
But seriously, do you have any Nord in you? Do you want some?"
From this one: ua-cam.com/video/WFI5wGf0WN4/v-deo.html
@@HappyBeezerStudios LOL! Thanks for the link.
I never realized you could lure Kematu to the stable and kill him there. For a novice Dragonborn fresh out of Helgen, the fight against Kematu and his men is one of the more challenging fights you can face. If I knew he'd show up alone at the stables, it makes killing him much easier.
I like that, if you’re a first time player, you’ll likely have no way to know that Saadia’s lying, and will side with her. Makes you feel completely manipulated when you encounter her in a second playthrough.
Yes!!
And the game has already established a pattern of "one person tells you to help them out and go kill a bunch of fellers", also the warriors are in a cave with bandits who the PC has likely taken out loads of by then.
I did the same
Reminds me of a certain fellow in Kingdom Come: Deliverance. Fooled me once and scared Brian Blessed into hating me. Never fooled me again.
I always side with Kematu. Did it even the first time around. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty allergic to people drawing their knife at me when I just want to talk to them.
Ilogunde If it needs to be explained to you why she draws her knife when you question her, did you even watch the video?
sure, ill watch your 52 minute video on a mission ive played a hundred times, if only just to hear that silky smooth voice.
oh shit, i didn't even realise that... felt like 20 mins to me
Finally answering the big questions.
Dr.Rockso tf kind of question is that? It’s booty.
I fucking love your profile picture.
The B I G, T H I C K questions
The reason people argue the remains means Kematu is lying is because it doesn't make sense for the Alik'r to take Saadia back to Hammerfell, get her tried and executed, then send her remains all the way back to Whiterun. Honestly I think it makes more sense that it's a bug, because I can't imagine them even making the effort to cremate her and would probably just leave her body out in the desert.
You are just ignoring opposing evidence at this point. If they just murdered her near whiterun, her body would be discovered and cremated in Whiterun.
@@NoName-mi8jsYou are also ignoring the fact that a disappearance would be considered death too. An urn doesn't necessarily have to have ashes when a person's body isn't found.
You might not have heard of the double elves, they are called the murmur
Hatsumi bruh
beware the murmur lmao
Clearly she's lying, but he definitely aint saying all the truth
as much as hammer fell wants to be free of all the bullshit, i cant see that there are NO factions with the elves at all. I dont believe that for a minute. if i was a power going into territory that im not wanted in i may bribe some motherfuckers who look like everyone else to go in and maybe get into good positions, and while some of that may take a bit to get the job done as long as i dont fuck up their cover and give them a couple of good items, well at least some of them might get into positions of authority and knowledge but that just me.
@@giantmess4335 If Saadia is lying then that proves that some Redguard sided with the elves (sold out city). If Kematu is lying that proves that some Redguard side with the elves (hired by elves to kill Saadia).
@marcus24000 kinky kind
@marcus24000 Oh yeah, "let's publicly announce to EVERYONE that we are here on a land with bitter conflict to a jarl that literally could not give less of a shit about outsider presence, but don't worry, because with this royal decree now all our enemies know exactly where we are as well as our very target who now has plenty chance to run away."
You just want to believe that the pretty lady is right no matter what.
@marcus24000 I can't believe that you tried to defend your argument with something even dumber than what you previously said. Not only is this very wrong, it's also stupid to even think it'll work. What i already said answers why this post of yours would not work, read it, because you obviously did not.
And have some common sense for ffs.
If Kematu is lying about anything, then it's probably the part that he's implying themselves as hired swards. His discipline to avoid unnecessary conflicts, and his demeanor (with better class than certain other Redguard in the Cloud District) makes me think that he's a part of an official elite force pretending to be a mercenary due to lack of diplomatic ties with the Empire.
i dont think official elite warriors let one of their own men rot in jail to be abandoned, leaving behind a soldier with no further obligation to uphold secrecy in the thalmor rooted country, possibly holding very important information behind
@@ReaperoeThalmor would kill anyone who held information, those guys are ruthless.
@@Reaperoe how would they get him out though?
and as he said, he lost his honor, so he might as well be dead
@@chritulkas5646 an elite force with this thought process would likely just assassinate him, yet i suppose its possible they just forgot about the thalmor.....?? anyways, i believe they are a bounty hunter group or some other organization, its hard to believe they are an official force
@@ReaperoeI believe Alik'r warriors are similar to Thalmor. Thalmor is an organization which giving advice to the Aldmeri Dominion King/Queen. They are racist and elven supremacist in their core. They govern lots of stuff within the Aldmeri Dominion. It seems like they are a very powerful cult.
Imagine the former companions (before the time they are being divided). They would be the equivalent force Of Thalmor within Skyrim if they were involved with the politics. Companions, Thalmor, Alik'r just the same group with similar ideologies. Companions are used to be a racist Nord supremacist bunch of warrior while Thalmor does the same as an Altmer.
I helped Kematu the first time I played the game but recently I've started a new playthrough and noticing the cave is named Swindler's Den made me rethink my choices.
After reading, watching and playing through so many stories in various media I've came to understand the importance of subtle hints. I mean, noble warriors paying bandits to live in some dirty cave? One of them is already in jail saying he 'got caught'? Seem very strange to me.
Treason is a serious thing but I think there are a lot of different reasons for it and we can't learn a full story at the moment. Without solid proof and evidence helping Kematu looks simply like selling out an innocent working girl to a big group of men living with bandits, which is not a good thing to do, per se.
I sided with Sadia the first time. But the second time, I found that her story had holes in it. I felt like Kemarus story was more bullet proof. And also, him being kinda non-emotional about the whole thing, is also something I find supportive of my opinion. And also, him saying that its not up to him in the end, is also a way to make me feel like taking his side.
I couldn't agree more. I sided with her the first time because I didn't know any better. Haven't sided with her since. Kematu > Saadia, all day, every day.
Yeah, the first time around, I pretty much went "Damn those Thalmor and their stooges!" But that made less sense than Kematu's story in hindsight.
I'm pretty sure this dilemma looking different depending on how much we know about what the current political climate of Tamriel was intentional in the design of the game. It's one of the earliest quests a new player runs into, and we're likely to know little about all those little things like how the White-Gold Concordat was followed by a Redguard-Aldmeri war which Hammerfell won.
I think the writers intended this to be a mission that served as exposition on politics outside of Skyrim for players who sided with Kematu, and a chance to go "Oops, it's obvious she was lying in hindsight." moment for those that went with Sadia and found out about the situation in Hammerfell later.
In a land of magic and gods, looking young should be child’s play
In the middle ages girls were considered an adult when first period comes. So Saadia could been 12, 13 or 14 when she betrayed the city.
@@eldarhighelfhealermiriella7653 the elder scrolls universe is still very much a product of modern times. where most fictional worlds don't really do the pedo thing, with good reason.
@@Yhur4x They don't because there would be a massive backlash coming from the people lol. I do believe their is insest in the series tho
@@Yhur4x I didn't say having sex at age 12. But beeing an adult in the eyes of everyone else yes. French monks for example discovered that there was a high mortality rate of young girls and unborns when they get pregnant at 12,13 or 14. So they stated 15 as the age of pregnancy even thou at 12 they were very muchs adults for everyone else. So Saadia doing a betray to their own people at age of 12 and beeing much a "single" adult with no husband?. Quite possible. Amakusa Shiro was only 16 when he lead a rebellion in Japan.
@Wirr Ling It could be that probably Humans in Tamriel have a longer lifespan due to magic and restoration spells. Maybe up to 110 or 115 yrs old?
"Quick! to escape without being noticed we'll leave through the Cities' front gate and head to the only Stables."
--Saadia RIP Nov 11th 2011
Another possibility for why Saadia's remains would be in Whiterun is simply that she lived in the city long enough for the people there to consider her part of the city. Not knowing where she was from or what happened to her, they left her a burial urn assuming she had died in some accident and they never found the remains.
Its also possible that Kematu left behind a body or something to make sure that no one would look for Saadia and cause unintended problems for her suddenly going missing in the city, and so the people there just assumed she'd died.
Do your friends make a coffin for you when you disappear for a few days?
And how organized do you think this band of bandits are, who can't even get into the city? How exactly is leaving behind a body better?
Oh, now we know for sure she was murdered, instead of maybe just running away. Huh? Weird, this woman was executed in Hammerfell? But we have her body!
The first time I played Skyrim, I found those Alik’r warriors out in the wild, and killed them for being assholes. When I saw them the next time I went to Whiterun I though they were there to kill me.
“You never should of come here”
For being assholes's lmfao 🤣🤣🤣
That's exactly what I did too when I first played. The Alik'r were total dicks.
@@Baldmaxx a bunch of dicks is spot on 🤣
The fact that you can nearly make an hour video on a small sidequest goes to show how vast this game and how there is so much to explore in this game
OR that he just can't get straight to the point and likes to talk forth and back a lot about the same thing, repeating the same points over and over
@@kabo2246 yeah this really could've been 10 to 20 minutes. Most of the length is caused by poor writing and an unnecessary quest walkthrough. Skyrim isn't that deep or complex
@@Ihavenolifeorvideos Just because it's not direct doesn't make it poor writing. Frankly I think the quality of the script is subjective. While you might not particularly enjoy it, others find it quite compelling.
I feel like the script is a bit out of order and a summary of the questline would've sufficed in the beginning
@@kabo2246 did we watch the same video? He isnt doing that.
Ah yes, the two dudes in whiterun from which I stubbornly run to avoid their dialog
if you never do the main quest, they never show up
Ah. Yes I get annoyed that I have to encounter them after a long run from Helgen and am exhausted.
LOL
"Sorry Kematu. I hunt dragons for their souls, scales & bones. I don't bounty-hunt escaped harlots."
*Nazeem has entered the chat*
If this isn’t definitively answered in TESVI we riot. Frt this whole questline in addition to Nazir in the DB made me feel even back when first playing skyrim that Hammerfel would be the next setting - it just feels like Skyrim is constantly reminding us that Hammerfel exists and the effort they went to develop the Alik’r in Skyrim makes me feel like it was on their minds even back then.
Since TES6 hasn't 100% confirmed it takes place in Hammerfell, I really hope it does. I feel like Redguards are underrated by the fandom
In regards to Saadia's remains returning to Whiterun:
In the Bannered Mare you can hear Hulda, the innkeeper, refer to Saadia as "dear", and Saadia to her as "mother", well maybe this was initially for cover up, but during Saadia's stay there they developed a close relationship, and after she was taken to Hammerfell and executed, Hulda was grief-striken, and wanted Saadia's ashes returned home.
I don't play with subtitles on, so I always assumed Saadia said "Ma'am" rather than "Mum" as the subtitles make plain in this video.
I guess, for me, contextually it made no sense for a Redguard to call a Nord "Mum" lol.
I mean, come on??? "Mum" ??? Lol.
She says ma'am (pronounced mum sometimes) and dear is just Hulda being kind, I doubt there's any close relationship between the 2, I usually side with kematu but I wanted a change so I killed him eventually, the outcome is the same, you get 500 gold and everybody's happy. Personally, you're not going to see kematu ever again, you are really better off keeping saadia around just because she's more interactive. In the end who cares really.
@@dirk1998 Yeah, it doesn’t sound like a close relationship to me. Saadia sounds like she is trying to hide contempt when she speaks to Hulda while Hulda sounds like she’s speaking to a subordinate but in a natural way.
Kinda like when Jorge is taking to Dr Halsey in Halo Reach.
Kinda like when Jorge is taking to Dr Halsey in Halo Reach.
Am I the only one who notices Saadia's graying hair. I always thought she was middle aged.
That's because she is.
She is middle aged
I think you got one small thing wrong, and that is in implying that Sadia isn't a noble. I think she actually was a noble who sold out her city, mostly because Kematu, when telling the story, says, "When the _other_ nobles found out about this," or something along those lines, implying that Sadia was a noble herself.
That was a very weird detail in this video. Like, wouldn't her not being a noble be a case in her favor, since a noble would have the power necessary to sell out a city?
Yeah, i thought that too, both of them imply that she's a noble, so there's no reason to think that she isn't, so that part of the story seems to be true
I think that the urn is quite simple to explain: she did technically go missing from the point of view of the lady she worked for, what if she's just assumed dead from Whiterun? And the name Saadia is used on the urn, not her real name, so.. It just makes sense
Urns are for ashes. You don't have a urn if you don't have a body.
@@NoName-mi8js The urn is symbolic since they couldn't find her body
In regards to Saadia’s age… I mean Delphine is in her mid-50s and she looks pretty damn good. I don’t think we can gauge people’s age simply off what they look like in Skyrim
i was just thinking this.
Not to mention the beauty (aka slutty) mods that probably touch her up a bit.
@@waddle_plop yeah and in base game they all look ugly and old so not possible to judge by appearance
Eww nothing attractive about Delphine. Bitch is supposed to be my "minion" yet all she does is order me around, and wants me to kill the one living being who helped me fight Alduin. My best buddy Paarthunax. Fuck that. That bitch needed to be put into her place. If only there was a mod that added a literal bitch slap killing animation.
Blockheadfun never said she was attractive lmao. She’s the worst, I'm just saying she doesn't look like she's in her 50s
Idk man, Kematu is looking pretty fine
Me, a psychopath: gets reward money for selling Saadia off, then kills both of them.
David G. Gotta tie up those loose ends. Lol
David G. The Art of Deal
I did that once on a playthrough but that character was supposed to be an sociopath drunk on the power of being a master assassin and vampire lord
Teach them a lesson not to mess with a vampire-dragonslayer from the Dark Brotherhood. >:D
ah, the negotiator
I think what proves Saadia is lying ultimately (tho albeit too late in a playthrough) is that she claims they are assasssins specifically but then they get mad if you kill her.
Because people claiming not to want someone dead would NEVER act mad if you killed them in front of them.
@@NoName-mi8js Almost like they're telling the truth that they don't want her dead at all and wanted to bring her to justice