Would you still be interested in Batman: Bellicosity? Lol I know St Cloud was in the Elmer Fudd comic, that's why I said last "significant" appearance.
It's been awhile since I'v seen a movie I like by Kevin Smith but he's an interesting guy who made some pretty good movies. I don't really care about the cliffhanger in itself but I do eagerly wait for the end of this story, for awhile now...
After the "made Batman peeing himself" and all the stuff that happened with his Masters of the Universe show he was attached to, including how he responded to negative reviews, I don't want to see anything done by Kevin Smith ever again.
Heh, sorry for posting about the Fudd comic in my comment -- didn't get this far before rambling. 😅That said, I do think at this point that the Elmer Fudd comic might be more significant than Widening Gyre.
When Sasha said the book came out 13 years ago, my mind immediately jumped to a period of the mid-to-late nineties/early aughts, NOT 2010. The passage of time is often cruel 😂
I'll do you one better -- I recently was online and someone was talking about how they were reading Trinity War when they were a KID. I felt like I needed a walker after that one for my aching hips.
As a critical care provider, and frequent Frontline responder, I promise you that Batman has peed himself many, many times. And he’s tough enough to cope with that. No one spends that much time knocked out, beaten up, unconscious, and near death without some urine. The fact that fans want these deeply, dark and realistic seeming comics without the attendant biological mess is what makes these things just fantasy fulfillment.
Thank you for saying this. The bladder spasm never bothered me at all. Let's face it, that would be the smallest problem a non-powered crime-fighter would have. I, personally, have a problem with all the frickin' scars artists love to draw on Bruce's body. If he was that bad at avoiding injury, he'd have died long before.
@@jimgillespie6109 It's because he has avoided injury reeeeeeeally a LOT of times... !!! Loved it when (Sam Hamm: Blind Justice) he told the doctor "I fell out of a tree. " 🌳 🤕
Exactly!! I will always defend that moment in Widening Gyre because it's a rare moment of humanity for Bruce. It really shows just how much he's allowing himself to be open with Baphomet and the story DEPENDS on that connection.
I wouldn't have a problem with it if it hadn't been specifically attached to a very dramatic moment in a pre-existing comic. Could it have happened? Sure. Does it serve the tone of that moment in that story to add it in? Nope. Sometimes fiction is improved by being realistic, and sometimes it's not.
Kevin did finish it, he considered it his greatest masterpiece... But then someone popped a paper bag behind him and it caused a bladder spasm which ruined the pages. He was so heart broken he cried and does so to this day...true story.
Two of the best Batman panels is in the Widening Gyre. One is the bladder spasm, and the second is of Bruce telling Silver that dolphins heard them having sex and told Aquaman.
@@CasuallyComics Future State was trying to test random characters. I mean even the white rabbit somehow got into the book. (Although I prefer her redesign)
I don't know if the cliffhanger "haunts" me, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing the final act. That said, I think the thing that bothers me about Widening Gyre isn't the cliffhanger, or even the bladder spasm, but the idea that Smith basically fridged this classic woman character just to prop up the villain he created. That said, Silver HAS shown up in recent years, specifically in the Batman/Elmer Fudd crossover by Tom King and Lee Weeks as a sort of femme fatale in that story. While the idea of it is bordering parody, I thought the comic itself took itself seriously enough to work as a proper appearance for the character, even if she felt different from the classic Englehart stories.
Smith has said that people were assuming he fridged Silver. There was supposed to be a whole other half of the mini series-and at the time I doubt he would have done so. However, once New 52 happened, Smith thought he’d get into a rollicking tale since that continuity “gone”
The tie-in comic _Arkham City Unhinged_ also ended on a cliffhanger. It's not much, just Batman trying to find a paper pusher who's skimming money from the prison. The idea that Batman can't catch a white-collar crook upsets me.
I grew up in a rural area and rarely got follow-up issues to the comics I managed to pick up when we went to the city. I "finished" the stories in my head (and sometimes on sketchpad), and as an adult I was able to read the actual endings. Almost always a let-down.
The cliffhanger that drives me the most crazy isn't from a comic book; it's the end of Sliders, where the characters break the Fourth Wall and directly ask the viewers "Now what do we do?"
Both Silver and Onomatopoeia are characters that I feel haven’t been handled that well; Silver started out as that one person in Bruce’s life who was normal which was ok, and lead to an interesting story arc for Bruce as he actually has to see if he can have that life, but now? Her goals are either “I want to be as messed up as you Bruce.” Or “Evil Ex.” While Onomatopoeia was legit creepy, and definitely felt like horror movie slasher that was placed in world of hero and thrived regardless of their skills and powers. But now? He’s kinda become a generic supervillain with gimmick that while was silly sounding in his original appearances, but made disturbing and fascinating thanks to Smith’s writing to just being silly. Again, “The Widening Gyre” isn’t my favorite, but I feel like that was the last time those characters felt like their own. But that could just be me.
You're not wrong Onomatopoeia got that weird modern "yeah they're a villain and KILLED PEOPLE but let them be close to Bat family" gimmick too many villains end up at these days. Silver... yeah they're not giving Bruce a healthy relationship or people are gonna trust it after that Bat and Cat BS.
When you mentioned how fans often take more stock in the characters than creators do, it reminded of the extreme opposite. Like when Gaiman is convinced he met Morpheus one night his daughter was sick (detailed in a forward in one of his Absolute editions) or how Moore, Milligan and Azzarello all claim to have met Constantine in real life.
Don't know if it qualifies as a cliffhanger but I will always insist that Spike survived his final battle with Vicious. He's NOT dead- he's just tired!
Tangentially related, the cliffhanger that ate at me most was on the show ExoSquad. The show ends with an alien invasion immediately after the Neo Sapien war ended. You could see that Exo Fleet and the pirate clans would have to team up, but its left unfinished as the show was cancelled.
Smith has done far worse than that. Killed Karen page. Changed Black Cat origin from wanting to be like her father, to learning skills to kill her date rapist. Killing the original Mysterio. He’s actually a fine “alternate timeline” guy. But honestly should keep away from regular continuity.
This always felt like a shock / tragic ending to me rather than a cliffhanger. I never expected a follow-up, and I think it's kinda awesome. It answers the question why Batman can never retire. Look what immediately happens! (Besides, as Sasha says, how do you follow this?)
As soon as you said Kevin Smith I was like OH because yeah being infamous about killing off Karen Page is maybe not the best look for someone handling beloved comic book characters. Like the two Batman books I had no idea where Guardian Devil was going (except for Karen dying which I already knew). So maybe Kevin's way to work is just going balls to the wall. Also not a cliffhanger per se but the end of Killblesmith's Loki run was so short and rushed because he even said he was going to do a lot with it, had so much planned out, but they cut the run before he had a chance to do anything and it just makes me sad. I really want to know what he could have done with it.
I haven't read the story, nor am I a huge batman fan, and I've only watched a few minutes into the video but here's my pitch for the final book: After Onoma-whatever cuts St Girly's throat, Batman loses it and beats Omo more and more savagely as the life drains out of St Girly. Each time Omo tries to speak Batman smashes him brutally in the face. There's a heartbeat graphic that becomes weaker over each panel. On the panel where the heartbeat flatlines, Batman says "she dies, you die" and raises his fist at Omo who says "I can save her..." then he says "...tlisss" saying the word that cut St Girly's throat backwards undoes the wound. Batman, confused, desperately tries to restart St Girly's heart. He asks "What happened?" as the heartbeat disappears (over Omo), Omo says "You'll never know". For a moment we think St Girly is dead but she revives, the heartbeat was Omo's. Batman has beaten Omo to death to save St Girly. The remainder of the book is Batman dealing with having killed Omo. Given the theme is bellicosity (and that this is now out of continuity), maybe Batman can become more and more convinced that what he did was right. He is pushed to become more and more violent in his methods as he is confronted with friend and foe alike questioning what he did. Gordon has to arrest him, Joker is envious that he couldn't get Batman to kill him and goes on a "Widening Gyre" rampage, St Girly is traumatized and leaves Bruce, Robin(s?) are disappointed and quit/leave. But Alfred is all in - "This is war master Bruce, always has been". Issue 1. Batman saves St Girly, kills Omo, Joker starts a rampage, Batman's relations with his friends deteriorate. Issue 2. Batman kills Joker and decides this is his new MO, Robin leaves him. Joker interprets that turning Batman into a killer was Omo's plan all along. Issue 3. Batman Kills Riddler, easily. Instead of trying to work out the riddles Batman tortures information out of anyone who has ever been associated with the Riddler, then works out what the final clue will be before Riddler even gives it to him. Batman ambushes Riddler as Riddler is about to commit the crime the final riddle was going to allude to. Issue 4. Batman kills Penguin and a bunch of C-listers as they meet to discuss what to do about Batman. Gordon creates a task force dedicated to bringing in Batman. Robin, Batgirl and Superman meet in secret to discuss what to do with Batman, Robin tells Supes to back off, that it's up to Robin to bring him in. After Supes leaves, Batgirl asks Robin if Batman ever made a contingency plan for himself? Batman is now extremely popular among the general population of Gotham. Issue 5. Batman breaks into Arkam Asylum and goes on a rampage, but Gordon has worked out that this was Batman's next target and laid a trap. Batman fights with police and inmates are freed. Gordon is killed in the chaos. St Girly leaves Bruce. Inspired by the new Batman, Gotham citizens have turned to vigilantism themselves with mixed but mostly terrible results. Issue 6. Batgirl and Robin break into Wayne Manor and have a final fight with Batman, but they are split up. Alfred has the drop on Batgirl with a shotgun at close range but can't bring himself to shoot her. Batman beats Robin to the edge of death but realizes what he has become and stops. That didn't take particularly long. Call my people, Kev. I'll even draw it for you. And of course you'll see this because you watch Casually Comics religiously. If you don't, your not a real comics fan!
Cacophony and Widening Gyre were early Batman stories for me which may be why I hold them in pretty high regard, Im sure if I was to re-read them I'd probably enjoy them less, but man I love Onomatopoeia as a villain, such a fun idea. Also one aspect I do still appreciate about it is that it was a very classic human take on Batman, which is something I think the character tends to lose in a lot of modern iterations, its a thing I think King is also very good at channeling and receives criticism for a lot of similar reasons, fans really dont like when Bruce is allowed to be human, have flaws, fears, make mistakes or as Smith put it, have a bladder spasm.
Sometimes I think Kevin Smith pulled a big hoax on comic fans. For those of us that watched his movies, it seemed like comics were a big part of his life and he knew what he was talking about. But, after the curtain was pulled back on Comic Book Men, I have wondered if he was a real fan, or he just casually read what Walt had laying around the house. Kevin likes to talk a lot about his fan boying, but sometimes I feel like Walt is writing the pertinent information for him. Or Kevin is just taking pokes at Walt with comic book mentions and we took it as gospel. My biggest problem with Smith is that he really did develop a huge ego after Dogma. You can tell it in his commentary tracks. He started believing his own hype and just started to jump into anything anyone would beg him to do. For a huge comic fan, his characters always feel like they're...Off. Like he's seen some covers, but never really read the books. Now, I'm not saying he can't write. I still love some of his movie stories. But he doesn't really seem to be familiar with comic characters past their looks. The thing that gets annoying about Smith's comic work is that he can't seem to ever finish anything. It's like he goes on each book and decides he'll be "writer for life", but just leaves plot lines dangling when something shiny catches his attention. All in all, if you want a geek culture movie that might have some deep thoughts, Kevin Smith is probably your man. Just when you think he's lost it, he'll pop up with something good again. But if you want a comic writer, you might be better off calling Walt Flanagan.
@@paultapner2769 - If we're counting the Tom King crossover & this movie *"Soul of a Dragon"* as a "significant appearance", then might as well mention that she's also in the show *Gotham* , she's a pretty important character who shows up in season 2, played by _Natalie Alyn Lind_ in 8 episodes total. young Wonder Woman in the recent *Justice League X RWBY: Super Heroes & Huntsmen* part 1. Can't wait for part 2 next month, in which David Dastmalchian will play the Flash (Barry Allen), after years of only playing DC villains, from Flash rogue Abra Kadabra to Joker Henchmen Thomas Schiff in *The Dark Knight" & and Dwight Pollard in the show *Gotham* , Polka-Dot Man in *The Suicide Squad* , Calendar Man in *The Long Halloween* parts 1&2... I'm real happy for the dude, Mr Mastalchian has been such a massive ... to get back to Natalie Alyn Lind, she also played in the DC sow *iZombie* (iHaven't watched that show though, just thought I'd mention it so my post would be complete)
I rewatch “my babysitter is a vampire: the series” every Summer hoping the cliffhanger has changed. It hasn’t and I still don’t know how survived the explosion.
I don't know how much this counts has a cliffhanger, but I wish the Archie Megaman series could come back and go all the way to MM 10 like they planned if only to see how they'd handle the other robot masters.
This is a big one for me too. Seeing the X characters in the crossovers and the full page spreads of other series in the final made me sad that they could've tackled the other series too in some form Unfortunately, if it goes the route of Sonic, it may need to find a new publishing house since idk if Archie is at all interested in it anymore...
This cliffhanger is definitely my biggest let down in comics. I was really invested in this story of a Batman finally tiring down and trying to be a human. I trusted Kevin Smith to write a faithful version of the kind of Batman I grew up with. Someone who yearns to have a decent life but pathologically needs to fight against the twisted evils of humanity. Despite the cavalcade of gags, I felt I was getting that. It's been maddening all these years waiting to see how does Batman fights against Onomatopoeia. I don't think Smith would have done anything as tired as just trussing him up and having Zatanna mindwipe him. I was invested to see how my favorite hero at the time, would stick to his principles, despite the pain and shame of "getting" his lover and real chance at normalcy killed.
I like the normalcy of WebToon’s Wayne Family Adventures. Sure, Bruce will never get the girl, but he has two full time jobs, five+ kids, the dog, cat, and cow. I’m holding out to see the BatMiniBus and the Wayne Family super-stretch limo.
It's not exactly a cliffhanger, but it haunts me that the last appearance of Mother Panic (from dc's Young Animal imprint) was her being trapped in an alternate dimension with seemingly no way to return to her family and friends 😰
I'd be interested in seeing you do an episode describing how you would finish the book. You appear to have a very good grasp on what makes a good story and what doesn't; and since the universe that it belongs to is gone, you don't have to worry about continuity that happened after the story. You know you want to...
When i think of iconic cliffhangers I always think of that show Reboot cause it had one of the best setups for another season I've ever seen but they never did anything with it cause the show was cancelled and that fact just gives me emotional damage and has since I first watched it in middle school it has actively made me mis trusting of TV shows when they do a cliffhanger to set up the next season.
Oh man, as for cliffhangers? X2: Wolverine's Revenge. Omega Red was on the loose and Apocalypse was seemingly on the hunt for either Wolverine or Sabertooth as his next horseman.
I would like to see Kevin Smith finish this run, but whether that happens or not, this giving you the motivation to finish your Claylist is a good… Silver lining lol Also, I liked what Kevin Smith did with Poison Ivy, it was fun. Cool hair by the way, I like the “Casual Spring Rouge” look.
14 minutes and almost 500 views already?! Dang! Also I am glad you covered this story; I have tried to explain this series to friends and they swear I’ve made it up 😂 I will definitely share this video with them 🎉
Well now I realise there's something I've been waiting on even longer than the Winds of Winter. Some things like this I just let go because you get the feeling they will never happen. But there's a certain frustration about a Song of Ice and Fire not being done that keeps me hoping. Beyond hope. Others: The Kingkiller Chronicles. Which I never read till 2015 anyway. All Star Batman. Was that pre 2010? But the longest is a series of books called the War against the Chtorr by science fiction writer David Gerrold. Supposed to be six books. Books four came out in 1993. Still waiting on the next one. And one I know will never be finished: in 1979 2000ad left space hero Dan Dare on a cliffhanger. Saying he would return. he never did. And doubtless never will. I had forgotten everything about the Kevin Smith ones bar that hospital chat in cacophony - I've always pronounced it Cack ophony, but there we are - and the end of Widening Gyre. Yes, even the pee pants bit. I would read it if he did do the third one. But I won't hold my breath. I laughed at that review saying worst Batman comic ever. This clearly pre dated Batman Odyssey, I think. Cliffhanger that haunts me: the end of Blakes Seven season four. Which I watched as it went out in December 1981. I screamed. Urban legend has it the bbc switchboard was crashed by all the complaints they got, so I wasn't the only one.
" we should go over them again , in depth " 😂😂 hilarious Sasha.... I didn't get into the book because Smith didn't write Batman well at all and that cliffhanger.... I blame the editor that should have been resolved ... I'll just ignore it...
I do think that the ComicsAlliance review makes some interesting statements about how comics tend to react to other media giving them any sort of attention. (Far too many examples to mention, but off the top of my head, Spiderman by J.J.Abrams' son). While I am mildly curious to know what happened next, far too much time has passed at this point. At least Silver showed up in that Batman/Elmer Fudd one-shot which is implied to be canon, so...yay? Also, love the hair💜🖤
The hair pulling thing is doubly funny because Batman is so paranoid that he can't simply ask Silver for a strand of her hair because that would give the potential android an opportunity to fake it somehow so he has to keep the element of surprise but then the world's greatest detective just lets some total stranger into the batcave. Saying that the only reason Kevin Smith wrote a Batman comic is for fame or money is kind of a disservice to him. Not that there's anything wrong with those kind of ambitions but there's more to it than that. It was something he didn't have the self-confidence to even consider because of how much he idealized the character until he realized it was a possibility if he had the courage to go for it. As a fan of a lot of Kevin Smith's work what I'd like to see is for him to write a Silver St. Cloud series but I doubt that would ever happen given the justifiable controversy over his portrayal of Felicia Hardy and the increased awareness of the sexist themes that still dominate much of comic book culture. There's no question that Kevin Smith can be seen as a very male focused writer but I wouldn't really call his work juvenile except on the surface but there's a lot of surprising mature themes underlying much of it. It's more accurate to say that he writes with a working class Jersey accent from a world where crudity and insults are often used to disguise one's true heart.
The unresolved cliffhanger in Widening Gyre is one of those relatively minor things I will die mad about. I wasn't aware Smith made a habit of not finishing a series. Kind of a giant middle finger to everyone who bought those works.
When you posted that hint, I had a feeling it would be this story. I am haunted by this cliffhanger too. And I actually love Kevin Smiths take on Batman.
Onomatopoeia has so much untapped potential. He is my favorite DC villain. He has managed to outsmart characters like the Joker and Batman and has managed to kill dozens of superheroes without powers. I love him and I felt so disappointed when the writers ended this story on a cliffhanger.
I have a couple cliffhangers that continue giving me grief (Dead Zone, etc.) but number one has to be the ever frustrating end of Quantum Leap. (While not actually a cliffhanger by virtue of the title cards, QL's ending wasn't actually an ending, making it a cliffhanger in every way that matters.)
The fact Batman didn't catch on to Smith's OC and the overall characterization leading to the tragic last panel is enough to tell us all we need to. I prefer to think it was just a Smithworld take not in any official continuity. As for incomplete works, I don't necessarily want to see it finished, but want to read the production notes and storyboard of what was left of the infamous Allstar Batman and Robin or as it was later to be referred to as Dark Knight: Boy Wonder for six issues to knowwhat Miller had intended.
I get a George RR Martin feeling as you read Kevin Smith's quote about finishing this book. I don't believe I'll ever see the last two A Song of Fire and Ice books until the job of finishing Martin's books are passed on to another writer. Probably the same with Smith's book.
The cliffhanger that irked me the most was Joe Madureira not finishing his Battle Chasers series, which is quite apropos since the comic imprint was called Cliffhanger. But now, it seems the coming back to the book.
I remember in the late 70s or early 80s the Camelot 3000 miniseries had a delay of about a year between issues 11 and 12. And the History of the DC Universe limited hardcover following Crisis on Infinite Earths was delayed, then cancelled and had to be reordered by stores. I had ordered mine well in advance, my store only got one, so I got it. They offered me all sorts of other credits not to take it, but I wanted the book!
Cliffhangers do not bother me as much as when you can tell a piece of media was told they were cancelled and all the loose ends are hurriedly tied up haphazardly. Though the Huntic ending haunts me a bit.
I do sometimes wonder how All Star Batman and Robin would've ended. I know people hate that book but I find it hilarious and wanna know how it would've ended.
@@SimonBuchanNz it depends. The bigger issue it plays into is whether shes an ecoterrorist, antihero, or femme fatale. The lack of clothing obviously going toward the latter but theres been a push to focus on other elements more, since characters like catwoman already fufill that role making Ivy redundant.
Would you still be interested in Batman: Bellicosity?
Lol I know St Cloud was in the Elmer Fudd comic, that's why I said last "significant" appearance.
As a gruesome temptation to end my desire to see it complete; sure.
It's been awhile since I'v seen a movie I like by Kevin Smith but he's an interesting guy who made some pretty good movies. I don't really care about the cliffhanger in itself but I do eagerly wait for the end of this story, for awhile now...
I’d check it out if it came out, but at the same time, I wouldn’t exactly be super disappointed if it never did 🤷♂️
~_~
After the "made Batman peeing himself" and all the stuff that happened with his Masters of the Universe show he was attached to, including how he responded to negative reviews, I don't want to see anything done by Kevin Smith ever again.
Heh, sorry for posting about the Fudd comic in my comment -- didn't get this far before rambling. 😅That said, I do think at this point that the Elmer Fudd comic might be more significant than Widening Gyre.
When Sasha said the book came out 13 years ago, my mind immediately jumped to a period of the mid-to-late nineties/early aughts, NOT 2010. The passage of time is often cruel 😂
I'll do you one better -- I recently was online and someone was talking about how they were reading Trinity War when they were a KID. I felt like I needed a walker after that one for my aching hips.
Oh I know that feeling.
I always think about the 80s when someone says "20 years ago"
Wtfffffff I hate it😂
I was 17 when I first read Runaways. Damn
I'm 34
The only thing that makes a cliffhanger bad is when you know it will never be finished.
Duckman flashback.
Teen Titans flashback
Carnivale flashback.
While it's not a cliffhanger to this day my Dad, who was born in 1955, is still mad about the Non-ending that was Lost in Space's final episode.
And for those that don't know the series ended in 1968.
On a related note, by mom _hated_ how the Dark Tower books ended. Like that was the one thing I could bring up that would set her off every time.
As a critical care provider, and frequent Frontline responder, I promise you that Batman has peed himself many, many times. And he’s tough enough to cope with that. No one spends that much time knocked out, beaten up, unconscious, and near death without some urine. The fact that fans want these deeply, dark and realistic seeming comics without the attendant biological mess is what makes these things just fantasy fulfillment.
Thank you for saying this. The bladder spasm never bothered me at all. Let's face it, that would be the smallest problem a non-powered crime-fighter would have. I, personally, have a problem with all the frickin' scars artists love to draw on Bruce's body. If he was that bad at avoiding injury, he'd have died long before.
@@jimgillespie6109 It's because he has avoided injury reeeeeeeally a LOT of times... !!!
Loved it when (Sam Hamm: Blind Justice) he told the doctor "I fell out of a tree. " 🌳 🤕
Exactly!! I will always defend that moment in Widening Gyre because it's a rare moment of humanity for Bruce. It really shows just how much he's allowing himself to be open with Baphomet and the story DEPENDS on that connection.
Sure. It just felt unnecessary, though.
I wouldn't have a problem with it if it hadn't been specifically attached to a very dramatic moment in a pre-existing comic. Could it have happened? Sure. Does it serve the tone of that moment in that story to add it in? Nope. Sometimes fiction is improved by being realistic, and sometimes it's not.
I think a lot of us love that hair ❤, that is seriously fire on you and it kind of looks like you are trying out for a anti-villainess role
One of the best she has displayed
Cruela DeVil
@Midnight Harvest nothing beats her neon yellow hair
@@invisiblenutmeg well that's very true
@@invisiblenutmeg I’d say thats more of a full blown supervillainess look though, still a great look though
Kevin did finish it, he considered it his greatest masterpiece... But then someone popped a paper bag behind him and it caused a bladder spasm which ruined the pages. He was so heart broken he cried and does so to this day...true story.
can confirm, I was the paper bag
... and Your TRUE Name ist "KAA-LOOOOOO-TAA"...!!! 😉
Two of the best Batman panels is in the Widening Gyre. One is the bladder spasm, and the second is of Bruce telling Silver that dolphins heard them having sex and told Aquaman.
Also the one with Polka dot man, every panel with him is an all timer
Onomatopoeia is a low-key badass villain, even if Cacophony and The Widening Gyre aren’t very good at all. I wish people would do more with him.
I was even excited to see him in Future State lol why was he there I dunno.
@@CasuallyComics Very much liking the Superman & Lois incarnation of the character so far. :)
Yeah, and please make him a Green Arrow villain not a Batman villain (he has enough)
@@CasuallyComics loving the character in superman and lois but can't remember his appearances in green arrow would love to look them up
@@CasuallyComics Future State was trying to test random characters. I mean even the white rabbit somehow got into the book. (Although I prefer her redesign)
I don't know if the cliffhanger "haunts" me, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing the final act.
That said, I think the thing that bothers me about Widening Gyre isn't the cliffhanger, or even the bladder spasm, but the idea that Smith basically fridged this classic woman character just to prop up the villain he created.
That said, Silver HAS shown up in recent years, specifically in the Batman/Elmer Fudd crossover by Tom King and Lee Weeks as a sort of femme fatale in that story. While the idea of it is bordering parody, I thought the comic itself took itself seriously enough to work as a proper appearance for the character, even if she felt different from the classic Englehart stories.
Smith has said that people were assuming he fridged Silver. There was supposed to be a whole other half of the mini series-and at the time I doubt he would have done so.
However, once New 52 happened, Smith thought he’d get into a rollicking tale since that continuity “gone”
The tie-in comic _Arkham City Unhinged_ also ended on a cliffhanger. It's not much, just Batman trying to find a paper pusher who's skimming money from the prison. The idea that Batman can't catch a white-collar crook upsets me.
The cliffhanger endings of the British SF tv series "Sapphire and Steel" and "Blake's Seven" that turned them into tragic endings.
Blake's Seven... that ending definitely sticks with you. Lol, as do the hilarious beaming effects where they were almost never in the outline.
Which Blake’s Seven ending? 😂 Poor Terry Nation tried to kill off that series so many times…
@@Thisisreallystupid LOL
I grew up in a rural area and rarely got follow-up issues to the comics I managed to pick up when we went to the city. I "finished" the stories in my head (and sometimes on sketchpad), and as an adult I was able to read the actual endings. Almost always a let-down.
The cliffhanger that drives me the most crazy isn't from a comic book; it's the end of Sliders, where the characters break the Fourth Wall and directly ask the viewers "Now what do we do?"
Well, that's at least honest, when the makers habe used up their creativity... 🙄
Both Silver and Onomatopoeia are characters that I feel haven’t been handled that well; Silver started out as that one person in Bruce’s life who was normal which was ok, and lead to an interesting story arc for Bruce as he actually has to see if he can have that life, but now? Her goals are either “I want to be as messed up as you Bruce.” Or “Evil Ex.”
While Onomatopoeia was legit creepy, and definitely felt like horror movie slasher that was placed in world of hero and thrived regardless of their skills and powers. But now? He’s kinda become a generic supervillain with gimmick that while was silly sounding in his original appearances, but made disturbing and fascinating thanks to Smith’s writing to just being silly.
Again, “The Widening Gyre” isn’t my favorite, but I feel like that was the last time those characters felt like their own. But that could just be me.
You're not wrong Onomatopoeia got that weird modern "yeah they're a villain and KILLED PEOPLE but let them be close to Bat family" gimmick too many villains end up at these days. Silver... yeah they're not giving Bruce a healthy relationship or people are gonna trust it after that Bat and Cat BS.
I would love to see Silver again, Smiths work not so much. Also yes the claylist!
Given his latest work with He-Man, he can stay away from all other people's creations.
When you mentioned how fans often take more stock in the characters than creators do, it reminded of the extreme opposite. Like when Gaiman is convinced he met Morpheus one night his daughter was sick (detailed in a forward in one of his Absolute editions) or how Moore, Milligan and Azzarello all claim to have met Constantine in real life.
Don't know if it qualifies as a cliffhanger but I will always insist that Spike survived his final battle with Vicious. He's NOT dead- he's just tired!
It certainly makes for a more interesting ending if he survived. But he died (to my way of thinking, at least).
Wow you resemble an intellectual Cruella Deville.
Tangentially related, the cliffhanger that ate at me most was on the show ExoSquad. The show ends with an alien invasion immediately after the Neo Sapien war ended. You could see that Exo Fleet and the pirate clans would have to team up, but its left unfinished as the show was cancelled.
It wasn't Legacy of Kain: Defiance? lol
I will never forgive these Kevin Smith books for canonizing Batman pissing himself during a badass moment in Year One. Unforgivable
Yeah, god forbid Batman be a human being .
Smith has done far worse than that.
Killed Karen page.
Changed Black Cat origin from wanting to be like her father, to learning skills to kill her date rapist.
Killing the original Mysterio.
He’s actually a fine “alternate timeline” guy. But honestly should keep away from regular continuity.
THE HAIR OH MY GOD!! In the entire existence of the material universe, no one has ever had hair that looks so good on them.
This always felt like a shock / tragic ending to me rather than a cliffhanger. I never expected a follow-up, and I think it's kinda awesome. It answers the question why Batman can never retire. Look what immediately happens! (Besides, as Sasha says, how do you follow this?)
As soon as you said Kevin Smith I was like OH because yeah being infamous about killing off Karen Page is maybe not the best look for someone handling beloved comic book characters. Like the two Batman books I had no idea where Guardian Devil was going (except for Karen dying which I already knew). So maybe Kevin's way to work is just going balls to the wall.
Also not a cliffhanger per se but the end of Killblesmith's Loki run was so short and rushed because he even said he was going to do a lot with it, had so much planned out, but they cut the run before he had a chance to do anything and it just makes me sad. I really want to know what he could have done with it.
I haven't read the story, nor am I a huge batman fan, and I've only watched a few minutes into the video but here's my pitch for the final book:
After Onoma-whatever cuts St Girly's throat, Batman loses it and beats Omo more and more savagely as the life drains out of St Girly. Each time Omo tries to speak Batman smashes him brutally in the face. There's a heartbeat graphic that becomes weaker over each panel. On the panel where the heartbeat flatlines, Batman says "she dies, you die" and raises his fist at Omo who says "I can save her..." then he says "...tlisss" saying the word that cut St Girly's throat backwards undoes the wound. Batman, confused, desperately tries to restart St Girly's heart. He asks "What happened?" as the heartbeat disappears (over Omo), Omo says "You'll never know".
For a moment we think St Girly is dead but she revives, the heartbeat was Omo's. Batman has beaten Omo to death to save St Girly. The remainder of the book is Batman dealing with having killed Omo. Given the theme is bellicosity (and that this is now out of continuity), maybe Batman can become more and more convinced that what he did was right. He is pushed to become more and more violent in his methods as he is confronted with friend and foe alike questioning what he did. Gordon has to arrest him, Joker is envious that he couldn't get Batman to kill him and goes on a "Widening Gyre" rampage, St Girly is traumatized and leaves Bruce, Robin(s?) are disappointed and quit/leave. But Alfred is all in - "This is war master Bruce, always has been".
Issue 1. Batman saves St Girly, kills Omo, Joker starts a rampage, Batman's relations with his friends deteriorate.
Issue 2. Batman kills Joker and decides this is his new MO, Robin leaves him. Joker interprets that turning Batman into a killer was Omo's plan all along.
Issue 3. Batman Kills Riddler, easily. Instead of trying to work out the riddles Batman tortures information out of anyone who has ever been associated with the Riddler, then works out what the final clue will be before Riddler even gives it to him. Batman ambushes Riddler as Riddler is about to commit the crime the final riddle was going to allude to.
Issue 4. Batman kills Penguin and a bunch of C-listers as they meet to discuss what to do about Batman. Gordon creates a task force dedicated to bringing in Batman. Robin, Batgirl and Superman meet in secret to discuss what to do with Batman, Robin tells Supes to back off, that it's up to Robin to bring him in. After Supes leaves, Batgirl asks Robin if Batman ever made a contingency plan for himself? Batman is now extremely popular among the general population of Gotham.
Issue 5. Batman breaks into Arkam Asylum and goes on a rampage, but Gordon has worked out that this was Batman's next target and laid a trap. Batman fights with police and inmates are freed. Gordon is killed in the chaos. St Girly leaves Bruce. Inspired by the new Batman, Gotham citizens have turned to vigilantism themselves with mixed but mostly terrible results.
Issue 6. Batgirl and Robin break into Wayne Manor and have a final fight with Batman, but they are split up. Alfred has the drop on Batgirl with a shotgun at close range but can't bring himself to shoot her. Batman beats Robin to the edge of death but realizes what he has become and stops.
That didn't take particularly long. Call my people, Kev. I'll even draw it for you. And of course you'll see this because you watch Casually Comics religiously. If you don't, your not a real comics fan!
Cacophony and Widening Gyre were early Batman stories for me which may be why I hold them in pretty high regard, Im sure if I was to re-read them I'd probably enjoy them less, but man I love Onomatopoeia as a villain, such a fun idea. Also one aspect I do still appreciate about it is that it was a very classic human take on Batman, which is something I think the character tends to lose in a lot of modern iterations, its a thing I think King is also very good at channeling and receives criticism for a lot of similar reasons, fans really dont like when Bruce is allowed to be human, have flaws, fears, make mistakes or as Smith put it, have a bladder spasm.
This is definitely one of the weirder Batman stories, but honestly I really love Onomatopoeia.
Wow😮, surprised seeing you here comic drake. Big fan of your work.
Kevin Smith so rarely finishes his comic runs.. it's frustrating because my of them start well and Full of potential!
I only buy trades, I don't collect comics to collect so having the trades to read is more convenient
Sometimes I think Kevin Smith pulled a big hoax on comic fans. For those of us that watched his movies, it seemed like comics were a big part of his life and he knew what he was talking about. But, after the curtain was pulled back on Comic Book Men, I have wondered if he was a real fan, or he just casually read what Walt had laying around the house. Kevin likes to talk a lot about his fan boying, but sometimes I feel like Walt is writing the pertinent information for him. Or Kevin is just taking pokes at Walt with comic book mentions and we took it as gospel.
My biggest problem with Smith is that he really did develop a huge ego after Dogma. You can tell it in his commentary tracks. He started believing his own hype and just started to jump into anything anyone would beg him to do. For a huge comic fan, his characters always feel like they're...Off. Like he's seen some covers, but never really read the books. Now, I'm not saying he can't write. I still love some of his movie stories. But he doesn't really seem to be familiar with comic characters past their looks.
The thing that gets annoying about Smith's comic work is that he can't seem to ever finish anything. It's like he goes on each book and decides he'll be "writer for life", but just leaves plot lines dangling when something shiny catches his attention.
All in all, if you want a geek culture movie that might have some deep thoughts, Kevin Smith is probably your man. Just when you think he's lost it, he'll pop up with something good again. But if you want a comic writer, you might be better off calling Walt Flanagan.
Yeah, he really feels like he's the guy that read the fanwiki but didn't play the games.
Please stop throwing books at me.🤣
Silver got a quick return in the batman/elmer Fudd crossover. Otherwise that's it.
Also, yay! More claylist
She was also in Batman; Soul of the Dragon animated movie in 2021. For all of one scene.
@@paultapner2769 - If we're counting the Tom King crossover & this movie *"Soul of a Dragon"* as a "significant appearance", then might as well mention that she's also in the show *Gotham* , she's a pretty important character who shows up in season 2, played by _Natalie Alyn Lind_ in 8 episodes total. young Wonder Woman in the recent *Justice League X RWBY: Super Heroes & Huntsmen* part 1.
Can't wait for part 2 next month, in which David Dastmalchian will play the Flash (Barry Allen), after years of only playing DC villains, from Flash rogue Abra Kadabra to Joker Henchmen Thomas Schiff in *The Dark Knight" & and Dwight Pollard in the show *Gotham* , Polka-Dot Man in *The Suicide Squad* , Calendar Man in *The Long Halloween* parts 1&2...
I'm real happy for the dude, Mr Mastalchian has been such a massive
... to get back to Natalie Alyn Lind, she also played in the DC sow *iZombie* (iHaven't watched that show though, just thought I'd mention it so my post would be complete)
I rewatch “my babysitter is a vampire: the series” every Summer hoping the cliffhanger has changed. It hasn’t and I still don’t know how survived the explosion.
I don't know how much this counts has a cliffhanger, but I wish the Archie Megaman series could come back and go all the way to MM 10 like they planned if only to see how they'd handle the other robot masters.
This is a big one for me too. Seeing the X characters in the crossovers and the full page spreads of other series in the final made me sad that they could've tackled the other series too in some form Unfortunately, if it goes the route of Sonic, it may need to find a new publishing house since idk if Archie is at all interested in it anymore...
This cliffhanger is definitely my biggest let down in comics. I was really invested in this story of a Batman finally tiring down and trying to be a human.
I trusted Kevin Smith to write a faithful version of the kind of Batman I grew up with. Someone who yearns to have a decent life but pathologically needs to fight against the twisted evils of humanity. Despite the cavalcade of gags, I felt I was getting that. It's been maddening all these years waiting to see how does Batman fights against Onomatopoeia. I don't think Smith would have done anything as tired as just trussing him up and having Zatanna mindwipe him. I was invested to see how my favorite hero at the time, would stick to his principles, despite the pain and shame of "getting" his lover and real chance at normalcy killed.
I like the normalcy of WebToon’s Wayne Family Adventures. Sure, Bruce will never get the girl, but he has two full time jobs, five+ kids, the dog, cat, and cow. I’m holding out to see the BatMiniBus and the Wayne Family super-stretch limo.
I'm so glad someone finally talked about this. this story still makes me sad they'll never finish it.
My most frustrating unresolved cliffhanger is from My Name Is Earl.
Would love an episode on Silver St. Cloud. Always loved her as a Dark Horse Love interest of Batman
All I can think of is that Vine where the guy asks a toddler "Do you pee your pants?" and the toddler answers "Yeah, sometimes."
It's not exactly a cliffhanger, but it haunts me that the last appearance of Mother Panic (from dc's Young Animal imprint) was her being trapped in an alternate dimension with seemingly no way to return to her family and friends 😰
This hair is Villain trying to figure out their gimmick and I am here for it. It's like is Sasha was an evil version of The Question...
I bet Sasha uses her Batman voice in everyday situations.
I'd be interested in seeing you do an episode describing how you would finish the book. You appear to have a very good grasp on what makes a good story and what doesn't; and since the universe that it belongs to is gone, you don't have to worry about continuity that happened after the story. You know you want to...
When i think of iconic cliffhangers I always think of that show Reboot cause it had one of the best setups for another season I've ever seen but they never did anything with it cause the show was cancelled and that fact just gives me emotional damage and has since I first watched it in middle school it has actively made me mis trusting of TV shows when they do a cliffhanger to set up the next season.
This is why I don't start a fanfic unless it's finished. I don't want to get sucked into a story and then crickets.
Oh man, as for cliffhangers?
X2: Wolverine's Revenge.
Omega Red was on the loose and Apocalypse was seemingly on the hunt for either Wolverine or Sabertooth as his next horseman.
I have no desire to read any Kevin Smith books but I do like watching videos from Casually Comics. I guess I'm stuck in a conundrum.
Haha when you flashed that photo of "Comic Book Men" I totally thought that was Alan Moore in the back 😂😂😂😂
Sasha THE WIG. Living fit it plus the green shirt with the shoulder details
I sometimes remember this story isn't finished. Then I hit myself in the head for remembering it exists. Bring on concussive memory loss!!!
Smith smokes so much weed I’m surprised he finishes anything.
That's quite the fetching hairstyle.
It's like an inverse-Rogue meets Cruella DeVille.
I would like to see Kevin Smith finish this run, but whether that happens or not, this giving you the motivation to finish your Claylist is a good… Silver lining lol
Also, I liked what Kevin Smith did with Poison Ivy, it was fun.
Cool hair by the way, I like the “Casual Spring Rouge” look.
In the end it turned out Onomatopoeia was Bugs Bunny the whole time. That explained so much.
14 minutes and almost 500 views already?! Dang! Also I am glad you covered this story; I have tried to explain this series to friends and they swear I’ve made it up 😂
I will definitely share this video with them 🎉
She's a chick duh
@@shadowofbosstownhow does that correlate?
Well now I realise there's something I've been waiting on even longer than the Winds of Winter. Some things like this I just let go because you get the feeling they will never happen. But there's a certain frustration about a Song of Ice and Fire not being done that keeps me hoping. Beyond hope.
Others: The Kingkiller Chronicles. Which I never read till 2015 anyway.
All Star Batman. Was that pre 2010?
But the longest is a series of books called the War against the Chtorr by science fiction writer David Gerrold. Supposed to be six books. Books four came out in 1993. Still waiting on the next one.
And one I know will never be finished: in 1979 2000ad left space hero Dan Dare on a cliffhanger. Saying he would return. he never did. And doubtless never will.
I had forgotten everything about the Kevin Smith ones bar that hospital chat in cacophony - I've always pronounced it Cack ophony, but there we are - and the end of Widening Gyre. Yes, even the pee pants bit. I would read it if he did do the third one. But I won't hold my breath.
I laughed at that review saying worst Batman comic ever. This clearly pre dated Batman Odyssey, I think.
Cliffhanger that haunts me: the end of Blakes Seven season four. Which I watched as it went out in December 1981. I screamed. Urban legend has it the bbc switchboard was crashed by all the complaints they got, so I wasn't the only one.
" we should go over them again , in depth " 😂😂 hilarious Sasha.... I didn't get into the book because Smith didn't write Batman well at all and that cliffhanger.... I blame the editor that should have been resolved ... I'll just ignore it...
Also digging your whole look in this video: casual Friday sorceress, confidently mystic without anything to prove
I do think that the ComicsAlliance review makes some interesting statements about how comics tend to react to other media giving them any sort of attention. (Far too many examples to mention, but off the top of my head, Spiderman by J.J.Abrams' son).
While I am mildly curious to know what happened next, far too much time has passed at this point. At least Silver showed up in that Batman/Elmer Fudd one-shot which is implied to be canon, so...yay?
Also, love the hair💜🖤
The body of that review is weirdly evenhanded and well thought considering how hyperbolic it started out.
The hair pulling thing is doubly funny because Batman is so paranoid that he can't simply ask Silver for a strand of her hair because that would give the potential android an opportunity to fake it somehow so he has to keep the element of surprise but then the world's greatest detective just lets some total stranger into the batcave.
Saying that the only reason Kevin Smith wrote a Batman comic is for fame or money is kind of a disservice to him. Not that there's anything wrong with those kind of ambitions but there's more to it than that. It was something he didn't have the self-confidence to even consider because of how much he idealized the character until he realized it was a possibility if he had the courage to go for it.
As a fan of a lot of Kevin Smith's work what I'd like to see is for him to write a Silver St. Cloud series but I doubt that would ever happen given the justifiable controversy over his portrayal of Felicia Hardy and the increased awareness of the sexist themes that still dominate much of comic book culture.
There's no question that Kevin Smith can be seen as a very male focused writer but I wouldn't really call his work juvenile except on the surface but there's a lot of surprising mature themes underlying much of it. It's more accurate to say that he writes with a working class Jersey accent from a world where crudity and insults are often used to disguise one's true heart.
The unresolved cliffhanger in Widening Gyre is one of those relatively minor things I will die mad about. I wasn't aware Smith made a habit of not finishing a series. Kind of a giant middle finger to everyone who bought those works.
Cliffhanger itch I can’t scratch: FC9’s “Genie” series from 2005. Three issue run and then cancelled
Cah-couph-uh-knee is how i've heard it, now i've heard ka-kaf-ah-knee
Oh my gosh I’m loving this hair right now this is a tie with the green and black cut
When you posted that hint, I had a feeling it would be this story. I am haunted by this cliffhanger too.
And I actually love Kevin Smiths take on Batman.
The cliffhanger that drives me mad: the 90s Marvel Star Trek comics that were cancelled suddenly; specifically the Early Voyages title.
Onomatopoeia has so much untapped potential. He is my favorite DC villain. He has managed to outsmart characters like the Joker and Batman and has managed to kill dozens of superheroes without powers. I love him and I felt so disappointed when the writers ended this story on a cliffhanger.
I think Batman # 300 in the 70s was named “the Last Batman story.”
Rose of Magic was a crossover that never was completed. It was from a line of comics called Continuity Comics that was founded by Neal Adams.
The 90's animated Spider-man series ending with Spidey still looking for MJ...
I have a couple cliffhangers that continue giving me grief (Dead Zone, etc.) but number one has to be the ever frustrating end of Quantum Leap. (While not actually a cliffhanger by virtue of the title cards, QL's ending wasn't actually an ending, making it a cliffhanger in every way that matters.)
The fact Batman didn't catch on to Smith's OC and the overall characterization leading to the tragic last panel is enough to tell us all we need to. I prefer to think it was just a Smithworld take not in any official continuity.
As for incomplete works, I don't necessarily want to see it finished, but want to read the production notes and storyboard of what was left of the infamous Allstar Batman and Robin or as it was later to be referred to as Dark Knight: Boy Wonder for six issues to knowwhat Miller had intended.
Battlechasers is finally getting finished so anything is possible
Oh wow, thanks for the flashback to Comics Alliance and Chris Sims
I get a George RR Martin feeling as you read Kevin Smith's quote about finishing this book. I don't believe I'll ever see the last two A Song of Fire and Ice books until the job of finishing Martin's books are passed on to another writer. Probably the same with Smith's book.
Kevin Smith...he has so many unfisnished projects.
The cliffhanger that irked me the most was Joe Madureira not finishing his Battle Chasers series, which is quite apropos since the comic imprint was called Cliffhanger. But now, it seems the coming back to the book.
Best wig yet
I'm honestly blown away someone remembered Tanya spears
Rolls eyes at 'double digits', minutes later "I like things to be complete". Me: Teehee.
I remember in the late 70s or early 80s the Camelot 3000 miniseries had a delay of about a year between issues 11 and 12. And the History of the DC Universe limited hardcover following Crisis on Infinite Earths was delayed, then cancelled and had to be reordered by stores. I had ordered mine well in advance, my store only got one, so I got it. They offered me all sorts of other credits not to take it, but I wanted the book!
I always love your hairstyles! I'm really loving this one too.
Oh no this cliff hanger definitely drove me insane
Cliffhangers in media, especially comics, can either be good or bad.
Interesting video and nice hair with dyed color Casually Comics.
woah, with that wig you can pull off a Cruella cosplay flawlessly
I’m still waiting for Iron Man Viva Las Vegas to get completed
i seem to remember him saying batman would end up going to hell. inspired by a swamp thing story line he loved
Your wig is *killing it* today Sasha!!! Absolutely gorgeous 😍😍😍😍😍
FINISH THE CLAY LIST!!! There's so much more to talk about!
LOVE LOVE LOVE that wig 😍 and yes do this series in DEPTH!!!
sorry for the yelling...😅
I think this is also the one that gave us the useful info that Batman is apparently the best at everything, including giving orgasms.
I think Catwoman and DC editorial might beg to differ.
The weirdest cliffhanger is J. Michael Straczynski and Gary Frank work on Squadron Supreme.
I'm just brandishing them at you 😆
Onomatopoeia has been around for twenty one years now.
Cliffhangers do not bother me as much as when you can tell a piece of media was told they were cancelled and all the loose ends are hurriedly tied up haphazardly.
Though the Huntic ending haunts me a bit.
I do sometimes wonder how All Star Batman and Robin would've ended. I know people hate that book but I find it hilarious and wanna know how it would've ended.
Kevin Smith recently sold his entire comic collection.
Unless Smith resurrect Silver St. Cloud in the Lazarus pit, I don't want him to finish it.
God, I tried to forget that era where DC decided that Ivy didn't need to wear clothes.
Well she can control plants and is a femme fatale. Kinda a precurser to full plant woman Ivy.
Isn't that the current era?
@@Dunybrook well yes but now she's also a plant person and there's two personas?
I'm reading her current series and she seems to wear plenty of clothes there?
@@SimonBuchanNz it depends. The bigger issue it plays into is whether shes an ecoterrorist, antihero, or femme fatale. The lack of clothing obviously going toward the latter but theres been a push to focus on other elements more, since characters like catwoman already fufill that role making Ivy redundant.
Love the cat bloopers!