Play your SACDs through your outboard DAC!
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- After I recorded this video, I found an excellent vid by ANA[DIA]LOG that goes into this topic with more depth, and since he was the first to make a video about this, I thought I would go ahead and link it here: • How to send high-res a...
Here are some ebay listings for this type of I2S convertor:
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As always, give me a follow on instagram! / poetryonplastic
I am a Audiophile and a Senior. I am impressed with your knowledge of Classical music. Please continue to share your favorite recordings as part of your program. I enjoy learning about the best music and best recordings. Keep up the good work!
Absolutely! I am astounded by that young man’s taste in music. I have no desire to pay any attention to a reviewer who uses Aerosmith to evaluate audio components.
@@daniannaci3258 A blend of Classical Musical taste combined with Music History is needed. We all know what we like when we hear it. We need somebody to guide us along the way.
Dude acts like he was alive when the classical music was created 😂
@@mikechivy he was!
I, too, am a senior in my 80s and an obsessive audiophile. I just bought my first SACD player, an Ayre DX-5 DSD. I am having goosebump making experiences listening to the many hybrid SACDs I’ve acquired in anticipation of finally having an SACD player. I very much want *Many More* of his classical music recommendations. Please!! I am only disappointed in the mostly high prices of SACSs compared to CDs.
Thank you for the easy to understand information. Refreshing to see a young person so excited about this stuff.
Great set up, very nice selection of components. Intriguing topic. I think for me, the biggest issue with SACD is availability. Since I am not a vinyl fan, I am not used to paying over $50 per album, let alone over $85 for rarer albums. Pretty awesome to see a younger man taking on this topic from the 90's. Nice job on this video.
To listen to my SACDs on my Lumin DAC, I use software by Sonore called "iso2dsd." The software reads the DSD data from my oppo 103. You make a boot USB thumb drive that boots the Oppo so the data can be read on our network. Enter the IP address of the Oppo in the software to connect to it. Once connected you can copy either stereo or multi-channel tracks. Once I have the files I stream them from Roon to my DAC. Best of all it's free and I don't have to swap disks.
In the early 2000’s, with SACD still in its infancy, Classic Records (which has since morphed into Analogue Productions) released a number of SACD’s along with the vinyl, of classics from the Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereo catalogs. Some were even released in their original 3 channel master tape editions for use on a multi-channel SACD machine. Classic records had access to the original tape masters, the urtext, as they say, and remember, those tapes were 20+ years younger then than they are today.
Thank you for this upload. Super new to the SACD/DSD scene and after scoring a Yamaha CD3000, I quickly realized I was bound to its Saber DAC (which is great) but does not have the soundstage of the Pontus II by a long shot. I now a much cheaper Sony UBP-X800M2 on the way because it's one of few that plays multi-channel SACD. That converter is popping up in all my searches, glad to hear you made it work with Denafrips equipment. Cheers.
Great! I liked your music selection. Additionally, I appreciated the recognition that SACD/DSD is the best format that we have for recording music. And, for many, your i2c is a excellent solution. However, you are correct that that box is another disruption in the signal path. While your solution is definately viable for many, a better solution would be: 1) just have the best SACD player available. The problem here is that you are using an older Oppo player. For example, the DAC, in the newer Oppo players, the UDP 203 and UDP 205, were significently better. Then, 2) If one could match a great player to an excellent Processor and system, that supports SACD/DSD, Like the Yamana CX-A5200, there is no better way to hear music, other than live, arguably. Moving up to a better player/system combination you will be further astounded. Also, while streaming has its place, keeping our eye on the SACD/DSD prize and supporting it, is the best audo format that we have, at the present time - above everything else. I have observed, lately, folks starting to understand SACD/DSD. Let's do more of it.
Julia, I looked at the specs for the Yamaha. It supports DSD files, but not DSD over HDMI, so you are mistaken about its ability to support SACD natively. Decoding DSD over HDMI is very rare these days; perhaps only SONY still supports it.
The Essence HDACC II-4K HDMI DAC can be used as a digital break out box. I use a Sony UBP-X800M2 player going HMDI into the HDACC II. The HDACC II will pass-through native 2 Channel DSD up to 256 on SACD via SPDIF outputs (you can also just use it's built-in Sabre DAC with balanced analogue outputs). I use my Cary Audio DMS- 700's AKM DAC's digital COAX input which supports DSD 64 and 128. I have also tried this using the digital COAX input on the Eversolo DMP-A8 (DSD64). Sounds amazing.
I completely agree, the sound of SACD through high quality gear is vastly better than hearing it in CD format, all other things being equal. Esoteric SACDs are especially well produced. The remastering process can give the engineers the opportunity to correct all kinds of flaws in the original LP pressing, provided the remastering engineers are good. If the master tape was well produced and preserved, the end result sometimes does beat the original LP. I was an LP absolutist until I got an integrated transport/DAC that's top quality, and it opened my ears.
which unit do yoou own?
Oh, right. I forgot that you know better than I what I hear. Your theoretical explanation must hold sway because it's pseudoscience wrapped in engineering lingo that you yourself are unlikely to understand. That certainly negates the decades I've spent listening to live music and recorded music in all its forms. @@nicksterj
I’m nearly 65 years old, I recently upgraded to a Audiolab 6000cft and Schiit Modi 3 + what a great sound, someday maybe a Bifrist or a denaphaps, I enjoy your reviews and your bright educated mind even though we have deferment music tastes. Good job!
so glad you told me about this last month and like you, got myself the pontus II. I passed the info to Guttenberg and Herb, amongst others. This is a great video, more people need to know about this!
The finale of the final movement of the Scottish symphony is awesome
I have used the same box as shown and this solution between my Oppo 105D and Pontus 2 dac .. it works and sounds better than the SPDIF connections direct from the Oppo 105 to the Pontus dac.
There are a couple of points to note .. I2S does not have a standard for the pin allocations .. so dacs like the Pontus 2 which has the ability to alter the pins via selection on the front panel is a must. The Oppo 105D & the Pontus 2 connection over I2S was easy as the default pins allocation worked .. but other players/dacs my be different.
Use the shortest hdmi cables that you can .. I used 30cm cables and use a reasonable quality cable.
Also note that on my box and as mentioned on other sites on the web this box reverses the channel balance for SACD discs .. I tested this by listening to a hybrid cd/sacd and noted that this in fact happened. So my solution was to get a cable made with balanced ends from the pontus 2 to two RCA input ends into my intergrated amp .. one being made reversed .. Snake Oil cable USA .. this cable is mentioned on the Denafrips web site.
So now it all works fine .. I just have to change the input selection on my amp when I play a SACD to get the correct stereo balance.
Hope this information helps
I'm using the same converter box from my Oppo bdp-103 to my Holo Audio May KTE dac. Works like a charm!
I use a Sony UBP-X800 that has HDMI out into an HDMI switch that also reads the DSD files. The switch is in the setup because I have multiple sources that I need to connect via HDMI. My current DAC doesn’t support I2S so I’m not getting the full benefit, but I will be replacing the DAC.
BTW, Esoteric is part of the group that includes Teac (I have a Teac UD-301 DAC - it’s very good especially for its age) - think of Esoteric as the high end line of Teac.
I have a pretty extensive SACD collection. For many years now a I have been using Sony Blu-Ray and 4K UHD Blu-Ray players as my SACD transports. They allow direct DSD streaming via HDMI to my Yamaha receiver’s internal DAC. It then outputs to my Onkyo Integra D-504 amp to my speakers. It would be great if more external DACs had HDMI inputs for DSD streaming. The Sony’s with direct DSD streaming sound fantastic.
I have a Yamaha TSR700 AVR and recently purchased a Sony UBP-X700. I ordered a SACD sampler to verify DSD capability. It sounds amazing. I will be heading over to The In Groove and pick up Dark Side of the Moon, and Animals when it is released.
On our living room setup I output my Sony player into the TV - then out on an optical cable to my aging Denon receiver (forget the model but it was top of the range when it came out) which has no HDMI inputs. It sounds pretty great. Could try putting a DAC in the loop to see if it makes any difference but, to be honest, I'm quite sceptical. And of course this only works with stereo layers. I only have 2 speakers on that system so it's not a problem.
I'm going to try to get full SACD sound by running my Yamaha blue ray BD-A1010 into my Yamaha AVR receiver RXA -1000 via HDMI. Both units contain 24/192 DACs.
Hopefully this works.
Been a vinyl DJ in the past with Technics and approx 600 records of which i sold before i moved, i now have a huge CD collection but for me in a small place with neighbours i find the format to be far better for my situation 👍
“Octave Records” record all in DSD 256!
What a great knowledge, Taste and inspiration
Thank you!
This is a great video just because you introduced me to Esoteric Recordings 👍.
I am reporting to you my first listening experience of the Denafrips Pontus II that I received last week. My system: preamp Mcintosh C2600, Power amp MC462, balanced interconnections, and B&W 802N in a dedicated listening room. After 5-days break-in, I had my first audition yesterday. In brief, I did NOT hear much difference between the Pontus II and my Mcintosh C2600 (built in DAC). I used coax on the Pontus to play non-SACDs; then coax on the C2600 to play the same. I also played SACDs from my SACD player via RCA to C2600. The only thing that I haven’t done is to use the I2S on the Pontus as I am still waiting for that converter box that I ordered on eBay.
In general, C2600 has an outstanding DAC, thanks to Mcintosh, Pontus II is also excellent but quite on par with the C2600. Both have a good sound stage. I do hear some details from the Pontus, but definitely not as much as others saying “very holographic, huge sound stage, extremely detailed” and etc, etc… To characterize the sound quality between the two, the C2600 is a boy and Pontus is a girl.
AM I missing something? Please help.
Hi Johnny, while I've never used a C2600, I have a lot of experience with the DA1 dac module mcintosh uses on many of their products (do you have DA2?), and I can safely say that they sound very different from the pontus. How many hours of play has the Pontus gotten? Something with so many caps in it may require a break in period of close to 200 hours.
Now, the Pontus is likely not going to be as super detailed as a lot of chipset DACs out there, but in my experience it more than makes up for it in soundstage and three dimensionality. That and a smooth non fatiguing sound signature make it one of my favorites. Be sure to experiment with the filter options on the Pontus. You have "No Oversampling" "OS Slow" and "OS fast". Most people tend to like "No Oversampling" and "OS Slow". If you don't know how to change these filter settings theres a handy video by Alvin at Vinshine audio that can walk you through the steps.
Hope this helps!
@@poetryonplastic
Thank you for your reply. I got the same suggestions from Alvin on the break-in time. In fact, from my last night audition (the 5th day) I have already heard some improvements. I will continue to burn it for another week and report back to you. I did try NOS/OS, I found OS has a tiny opening for the sound but very subtle, almost no difference. I am listening to classical music mostly, I would appreciate your suggestion of OS Slow or Fast setting and I will continue to learn the set up as well.
One more thing I also have noticed is that the signal level on the Pontus II is kinda low. I have to turn the volume way up to have the normal sound level for my room. Don’t know if this is correct.
The Mcintosh C2600 is DA1.
@@johnnyz4427 I’ve found in my system the setting I prefer is OS slow.
One tip is to use a nice hefty 5V power supply with the extractor box. The one I use is 2.6Amp and It sounds very solid. Now the challenge is to get my right and left channels back in the proper orientation. Sony Bluray and GUSTARD DAC. SACDs sound pretty spectacular.
FYI, I2S doesn't have a termination standard, which is why you can see it with different terminations depending upon the manufacturer. It is also the native language of digital conversion. Whether you go into a unit with USB, SPDIF, AES/EBU, etc. before it gets to the conversion method, (be it chip or R2R module ) , it will be converted to I2S. Historically I2S hasn't seen as much use (despite sounding better in most situations) due to a few reasons; one, no standard termination (we mostly see HDMI or RJ45) and two, it wasn't meant to traverse longer distances wherein it can be subject to noise. There are many proponents of I2S (your own Denafrips, Sonnet/Metrum, MSB, Lessloss, W4S) and a fair number have now conquered the distance issue. So, in the not too distant future, it will once more be utilized more generously across the market-place. Looking forward to hearing how you like your SOTM. They, along with Audiobyte, Rendu and similar companies, make great little boxes that will take your USB, reclock and clean it, and send it out I2S. I found these solutions to offer an improvement worth the investment. Such things should be auditioned within your system as YMMV. (for instance, most dacs are engineered to sound best around one of their many digital inputs...and in many dacs the usb board often ends up hosting and re-clocking for more than one input. )
Thanks for your videos. I'm about to ease into your classical LP music collection video.
It may be that LVDS is becoming a de facto I2S standard. My previous W4S dac used that and my current Matrix Audio dac uses it as well.
Excellent information
Hdmi cables/connectors have been used in some instances to transmit I2S signals. But I2S can be transmitted in other ways.
Great review. Long overdue for me. But what if your SACD/CD player does not have an HDMI out?
Great collection and Great Taste...👍
I have an Oppo bdp95 and a Sony UBP-X800, both support SACD and have hdmi outs. My hope was to be able to connect them to my Psaudio Nuwave DSD DAC via the i2s port. I ordered the hdmi to i2s converter from Ebay and received it yesterday. I hooked it into the system and configured both players to play the stereo SACD layer and pass DSD through hdmi. Good news, it worked except for one thing. When I select the i2s input on the DAC it plays seemingly normally but the DSD light doesn't turn on. When I view the TV monitor when a track is playing the Oppo reports that the audio is playing 2 channel SACD DSD. The Sony reports SACD DSD 2 channel 2.8MHz/1bit so it would seem that both plays are passing SACD DSD correctly. I'm going to try some better 8k hdmi cables to see if they fix the dsd light issue, if not I'll live with it as is and have a better set of cables and an outboard DAC that can play SACDS. Thank you Michael for bring this valuable information to your channel, nicely done.
Make sure the output is not set to change the DSD to 24/88.2kHz, on the Oppo for sure there is another setting for that.
@@nacarp2000 Not quite sure what you mean. Could you be more specific. Thanks, Tim.
@@timmurray9065 I think he meant that on your oppo settings menu, there should be a page for Output, then HDMI and then an option to allow DSD over HDMI or convert to PCM. Most of the times by default, it will be set to convert so you should check those options. I don't have an oppo so I can't be more specific but hope it helps.
I own an Oppo bdp-93 and use the player as a transport for sacd playback to my Yamaha rxa3010 receiver which decodes and plays back 64 DSD the receiver has dedicated burr brown dacs for each channel. Sounds great.
Thanks for a great video about this amazing little "box". I have been using the exact same one with my Oppo 205 and Holo Audio May DAC for about a year after hearing about it on ANA[DIA]LOG's channel. I did not use an external power supply, just let the Oppo power it through the HDMI. May try external power to see if there is a difference. I too am truly amazed with how great my SACD's sound. I also play my regular CD's through the same output. Maybe it helps? Probably more the May 'ladder DAC". I do still use and like my vinyl collection but DSD is winning me over to digital. BTY, do you have a link to the "higher end" converter you mentioned in the video. May want to try it. Great job.
Good to know! I think that circuit must stripping the copy protection off the HDMI protocol, probably explaining why it’s sold more as a black market device. Some DACs these days have an HDMI input that includes the license to decode the output from a player directly, but this solution looks like a no-brained for anyone already owning a DAC as exceptional as yours, however, lacking an HDMI in. I really appreciate your recommendation of a streamer as well! I’ve been looking for something with a cleaner output than a MacBook or an iPad to stream Qobuz. I’m going to give that a try. Thank you! 🙏
I have had three AVR’s that do DSD 2.8MHz/5.6MHz DSD (Marantz, Sony, and Onkyo). Except for Sony (obviously), DSD is done over PCM (just like DTS-HDMA (PCM 96/24 delivered via DTS bitstream).
They don’t sound anywhere near as good as my PS Audio DirectStream DAC with Windom installed including the Sony.
Implementation is everything these days with DAC’s. Just like it was with Phono Preamps many years ago. The RIAA curve never changed but it’s implementation is everything.
Cool, are you sure the i2s is the raw DSD stream, and not downsampled / converted to PCM / or the PCM layer of the SACD? I thought the DSD (i2s) is encrypted once outside the oppo thru HDMI. I was almost expecting you to show hooking it up internally in the oppo somehow!
+1 on this. There is no indicator on this dac to show it's a DSD flux
What a pleasure to hear you talk about SACDs of so-called 'classical' music for a change. I have a sizeable collection of Esoteric SACDs myself, including the Carlos Kleiber/VPO Beethoven 5 and 7 and the Strauss "Alpine" symphony and 'Metamorphosen' with HvK and the BPO that you mentioned. Last year I decided to 'bite the bullet' and buy the P S Audio PerfectWave SACD Transport and DirectStream DAC. Hugely expensive but wonderful-sounding. The transport has I²S output and the DAC matching I²S input and because I bought both units I was given a high quality HDMI cable to connect the two units. It's a truly glorious combination. I gave vinyl away decades ago but if you continue to discuss SACDs I'll definitely follow your channel. I'm a real fan of the format. I'm pleased you had success connecting your Oppo player to your DAC
Now that you have had your PS audio gear for a year, what do you think of it? I am considering buying the same 2 items you have. I have read that if you have to send anything back to PS Audio for repair, it is $550 just for them to look at it and give an estimate for the repairs. Not sure if that is true or not.
@@CliffCollipriest2013 Hi Cliff. You may not be aware that there is now a Mk II version of the DirectStream DAC and I would definitely advise you to purchase that model rather than the one I have. There is a UA-cam video of Ted Smith, the designer of both models, being interviewed by Paul McGowan where they discuss the changes between the models and it would seem that when Ted designed the original DirectStream DAC, some of the components he wanted to use were almost at the limits of his design requirements and they have been replaced in the Mk II version by updated components with better specs, like the Field Programmable Gate Arrays. In addition, noise and jitter issues seem to have been further reduced with better power supplies etc. I'm still very pleased with the model I have but I would have bought this newer version had it been available at the time. I live in New Zealand so I'm not sure what would happen if I needed to get either my transport or DAC serviced.
@@johnmarchington3146 thank you John for the quick reply. Yes, I am aware there is a new MkII out. I am on Paul's email list. My only concern is reliability from what is for most an unknown brand (well, and the price). I am glad you are enjoying your PS audio and can still recommend it.
@@CliffCollipriest2013 That is always a concern, Cliff, no matter what. From the various UA-cam videos and interviews I've seen, I have always gained the impression that PS Audio spends a considerable amount of time and energy selecting the best possible components and I have heard Paul speak of estimating the equipment lasting for decades. All that talk is no guarantee, of course. If you are feeling anxious about it, choose another brand.
John, I'm in a similar boat of perhaps upgrading my Modwright (Marantz) sacd player. The only (I2S) SACD Transport is the PS audio transport. The new MK II dac seems like it has had some functional issues and there were some part compromises made due to supply chain issues. That being said, I gently chided them at the last Rocky Mountain Audio Fest about their pricing model after they went direct only. Their prices were at the full retail value even though they cut out all the dealers. Oh well. I may go with the transport if they have a sale on it and perhaps another dac or I need to check the new Luxman D-07 an all in one sacd player. I was hoping some other manufacture would offer a sacd transport.
Ever since Oppo began outputting DSD through the HDMI outputs beginning with the 103 player. I just run it to my Onkyo PR-SC5509 pre/pro-which decodes DSD. Right now I have an Oppo 205 and enjoy streaming DSD from my backup hard drive to the Oppo and playing it on my system. The Oppo/Onkyo combo will play both stereo and multichannel DSD downloads as well as SACD’s. The Oppo will stream via SMB. You have to turn it on in windows though on your computer.
Thanks for this excellent video and discussion. Got here from ur post on the Audiophilliac were I tried 4 times to post links to that original article about the setup, and my own OPPO 83, box, Pontus II setup...they were all deleted, don't understand why. Looking to expand my SACD library, thanks for the recommends.
I bought that box too. I could never get it to work with my Oppo BDP-83. I think you need to add a caveat that not all Bluray players will pass the DSD signal over their HDMI output. That is a must for this to work.
Great video. Some things I’ve learned along the way…
SACD is essentially a file system and does not have to carry DSD. For example, BIS released the complete Bach Organ Organ works on SACD using PCM audio (it was originally recorded in PCM). The collection went from 17 CDs to 5 SACDs due to the difference in storage capacity of the two media types.
There were a few SACD players that could be hacked to extract the unencrypted audio on the SACD to a hard drive where it could be streamed. I’ve seen them pop up on e-Bay.
The Esoteric SACDs do sound fantastic but I am a bit skeptical of the ones that were originally PCM. Converting PCM to DSD (or vice versa) is lossy. How would the fidelity be increased? I have the Abbado/Hindemith and Shostakovich/Haitink in both versions but have not had a chance to compare yet.
Well I know that Esoteric remaster everything themselves, recordings where the original masters are in PCM are upsampled to higher resolution and then converted later. I'm not an expert in the technical aspects of this process, but i know one of the esoteric recordings I have (Karajan's last Tchaikovsky cycle) sounds much, much better than the original cd. Obviously working with a native DSD master file is always going to be better than converting, but sometimes you work with what you have. The results are really what concern me though.
Good discussion!
I actually welcome much more output from PoP on the digital topics! I have some vinyl, have a high end system, but rarely play live records because of the hassle. I have ripped most of my LPs to files (which may be PoP project!), I ripped most of my CDs to files for similar reasons of convenience. And ... yes... optical discs and SD cards are also made of PLASTIC ;)
Actually you could extract dsf files from your sacd disc via your Oppo and a thumb drive with autoscript sacd extract software. Got the dsf files and played via your streamer to your Pontus2.
The best way to do it, no additional hardware required other than (potentially) a streamer that is DSD compatible to play back the ripped files.
Don't know if you're into Jazz but their SACD boxes/coffrets are really excellent.
You've got the 6 queens of jazz, 6 Impulse Great jazz, 6 Verve Great Jazz and the 6 Blue not Great jazz (this one hybrid). If someone's is skeptical about SACD as an audio format these Esoteric are a good way to show them what they're missing.
You were talking about the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. Long and great history. As a side note Fritz Reiner was conducting from 1938-1948. Have a few of his original recordings from then on vinyl. Also the vinyl & SACDS (RCA) from various companies. Have you listened to them on this setup you are mentioning? Not to mention the vintage reissues of Mercury, London Blue Backs, and Telarc SACDS.
Great explanation and nice Black Bay!
Oppomods from Korea is selling a I2s board for the Oppo SACD players whiche allows you to send SACD signal through that board to an I2s Dac using HDMI cable.
I have it and it works fantastic. Kills any streamer I've heard so far regardless of price
If you have a great dac
Native SACD has better range than Vinyl. Not to mention surface noise from Vinyl.
If I can get something in SACD I prefer it to Vinyl by far.
It’s kind of funny. Esoteric is coming out with the three cornered hat next month, DSD to the Newman lathe from the add copy. It’s cheaper for me to buy the $100 vinyl than to buy everything I would need to play an SACD.
While I was wathing the video I thought that in fact it's possible to extract th edigital DSD signal triough the HDMI if the DAC has HDMI input because in fact it's what I do when I listening to my SACD in my AVR (Arcam FMJ AVR600).
I use a Yamaha BD-A1040 for playing the SACD and if I want to listening in stereo I use the analogue output and I am using the HDMI when the SACD is multi-channel.
I confess that in 2 channels I am not able to appreciate a huge quality advantage between the SACD and the CD layer. But what is a clearly an noticiable difference is between 2 channel or multichannel, and this is only possible using the Arcam AVR600 internal DAC nor the dedicated stereo one
I also think that perhaps I could try to get the HDMI output signal from the SACD player (Yamaha BD-A1040) to my Arcam AVR600 and then use the Arcam digital output to connect the DAC input. But I cheked the manual and it is clearlly explained that there isn't output signal when teh HFD audio comes from HDMI :(
Therefore, I would check your system.
Until now, when I wanted to use an external DA for DSD music, I use DSF files instead the SACD discs, but I would like your tip ;)
Thanks, i caught on to the SACD and HDCD's a while ago and you can get bargains on these. Good tip on the converter i have an oppo 105 as well however, i have the schiit bifrost 2 not sure if it rivals the sabre in the 105 i am intrigued now got to do some reading 👍👍
I recently discovered my Sony UBP-X700 bluray player will send multichanel dsd to my Onkyo TX-NR6100 receiver via hdmi with no conversion. I've never heard music sound so clear.
Thank you for pointing out this device, very useful indeed, I like yourself I predicamentally listen to vinyl records for Jazz and CD/SACD & records for classical. If I may a quick question, on the Oppo audio settings for HDMI output do you have it set to Auto, Bitstream or PCM, Many thanks and all the best for your Chanel
Thank you for the video. You explained really well. I also love my SACDs, but my player, though it sounds great, does not offer HDMI out. I still have two questions for you, if you don't mind: (1) Does the Oppo send raw DSD out through the HDMI output, and (2) If so, how does the decoder box get around copy protection? For many years, we were told that only SONY made the decoding chips and required licensing fees for third party implementations. Thanks!
No idea about the ins and outs of the copy protection. The player is not sending pure dsd through the hdmi output from what I understand, it's sending dsd attached to video, which the box is then separating as far as I can tell. My DAC recognizes the i2s signal as raw DSD, so its not converting to pcm.
@@poetryonplastic Thanks! That makes sense. You never cease to inspire.
@@bart1366 Based on what I’ve read, PS Audio and I think DCS have licensing agreements with Sony WRT to DSD “Native” playback. Other DAC’s are using either chip based DSD over PCM decoding or some sort of FPGA system. All Denefrips DAC’s do DSD decoding via an FPGA whereas all PCM decoding is done via their R2R Ladder Networks.
Paul McGowan did a Video on the licensing stuff a few years ago.
Hi,
I just came across this great video of yours. Congratulations!
You gave the best explanation about the I-squared-S interface I've heard or read anywhere.
I do have one question for you: Can your streamer read a USB attached storage containing multichannel DSD or FLAC files, and send the I²S signal in multichannel format to a DAC?
Maybe your Denafrips only handles stereo conversion. But if you had a multichannel DAC, would the Metronome send the I²S signal *in multichannel* format?
Thank you, and kudos on your musical tastes! We're on the same page, pretty much.
Gabe
Nice system setup you have. I think your next investment should be towards room treatment to enhance your listening experience. It will work better than a Chinese i2s convertor.
The Dvorak Slavonic Dances Op. 64 and 72 are wonderful and that recording from the 70s is imo tops. I've had three different pressings on vinyl or two CDs of it, but did not know about the SACD you've shown us. It's quite a slammin' orchestra sound there.
I would be curious if you've heard any of the 3-channel SACDs from the RCA Living Stereo or Mercury Living Presence masters, or if you have any surround in the system? I particularly like the Byron Janis First Time in Russia recordings on Mercury which you know on vinyl.
Thanks for this video. Have you tried using your Oppo to copy SACDs using a program from Sonore to a hard drive ? I heard similar results playing these files through my Ayre QX-20 DAC, meaning they sounded better as a file through the Ayre then played direct on my Oppo and this was using a Esoteric SACD. Unfortunately the Ayre doesn't have a I2S input so I'm not sure how I could feed the Oppo direct into the Ayre. BTW, I will also check out the Dvorak Slavonic Dances SACD on Esoteric.
Keep up the great work !
That is really the best way to do it, because it allows you to stop putting wear and tear on the aging disc player. Once the SACD data is ripped to a file format (typically DSF), it can be played by any number of music streamer/software/DAC combinations and the disc can be safely stored away for archival purposes. Usually that would be a via USB connection between DAC and streamer, however some DACs can take DoP over SPDIF.
Wow, this was 2 years ago? I only just found out about this, but Oppo SACD players are extinct and I had never heard of them before apart from their smartphones. Instead, I have been using Denon for SACD, other brands include Marantz and Esoteric which is more high end, however none of them have HDMI out.
interesting and informative video. Thanks
DSD audio format is not just the best sounding digital audio format, its the best sounding of all if properly recorded mixed etc..
SACD's appears to be ancient history, while DVD-A & Blu-ray Audio have significantly better audio quality than SACD. SACD's also require DSD, which is found at a higher cost on fewer DACs than PCM. I would only stick with SACDs if you already have many of them--and can't get those albums on DVD-A or Blu-ray Audio.
DVD-A is essentially and while Blu-ray Audio is surviving, it has nowhere the amount of software support like SACD.
I have been playing SACDs using Oppo BDP-105D connected to Parasound Halo integrated amplifier with XLR connectors. Unfortunately, Parasound has only one set of balanced inputs, so I've decided to designate them for my Sony HAP-Z1ES HDD Hi-Res Audio Player. Blind test showed I couldn't tell the difference in analog audio signal traveling through XLRs or RCAs, so I though, just in case, it would be a better choice to connect my Sony using XLRs, considering I have less than 25 SACDs in my collection and over 100 DSD and 100s of Hi-Res files stored on my HAP-Z1ES. And... that setup won't make my Technics SL-1200GR sitting together at the same table feel awkward.
Fascinating ! I wonder if that black box outputs DSD (DoP 64 ?) to the optical or coaxial outs.... for those of us that do not have I2S connection on our DSD DACs (eg. Denafrips Ares2) ? My DSD capable DAC does DoP64 on optical or coaxial which I believe is what SACDs have. THANKS.
I “Squared” S.. Try to read up on Ian Canada’s modules.. He has more sophisticated designs for these type of converters.. BTW, what model is the Turntable?
Yes I’d love to experiment with different designs for these. The turntable is a Pure Fidelity Horizon.
@@poetryonplastic Thanks.. Deck looks elegant.
Exactly... aka I²S (Inter-IC Sound)
I see there are 2 versions of the little black box converter now. Both do HDMI to I2S, but the more expensive one also does DOP (which I don’t need).
I have however heard, that the DOP version does a higher quality conversion of the HDMI to I2S and hence it may be worth getting even in you don’t use the DOP function.
Do you know which one you have and/or have you ever heard any comments/comparisons of the 2 ?
Hey, love your videos! I myself am an audiophile looking to piece together a high end system soon. Question for you, tho. At what price point does it make more sense to go for a CD player as opposed to a DAC/Transport?
This was great, very helpful. I'm wondering if the converter would still work as an adaptive device for when the already existing I2s pinout of a device will not match with any of the pinout options/settings in a particular dac. Hoping to find a go-between as I'm experiencing this issue with my streamer I2s out to a Topping D70s. Regardless, super cool workaround, great vid.
Disconnect pin 16 of your HDMI cable and your Topping should work.
I use a 100 dollar Sony BluRay Player with the HDMI connected to a Pioneer home theater receiver that will decode DSD. I only have 6 SACDs but it works OK for me and I did not pay a thousand dollars for a SACD player. I also have a Sony DVD from about twenty years ago that has 6 channel analog out. Unfortunately, it appears that most new theater systems don't have 6 channel analog inputs. Fortunately though I have old receivers with 6 analog inputs.
Love the idea of using an external DAC, only works for 2 channels though :( Currently use a Pioneer LX305 to listen to multi-channel music via onboard DAC. It's nice.
Many people, like you thought, think they are getting everything from their Oppo, but it's not even close to a high-end DAC. Even the Pontus is entry level audiophile sound quality.
Just to be absolutely correct in terminology, it is NOT 'i-two-S' but rather "i-squared-S" . I know this may not be important to many folks, however I suspect that you, Michael, may wish to know this.
Life changing
interesting thing is that dac is an R2R ladder dac, fundamentaly incapable of converting DSD, so at some point along the way that DSD is being converted to PCM for the dac to be able to do anythign with it...
While ladder DACs that can decode DSD are rare, the Denafrips actually decodes native DSD. its not being converted to PCM or using D2P/DoP.
Today, haven't we moved beyond 24bit 88khz (the 88 being an odd sample rate) to 24-96 and 24-192 that can downloaded legally from multiple sites for less than SACDs? I get that was the play 5 years ago, but if you have a decent DAC, downloading FLACs at 24-192 are what audiophiles are using these days.
Just go ahead and get a high quality standalone power supply for the converter box and BOOM! You now have the $400 version of the device ; ) I need one that will give me DOP out of the coax output for the lower price DACs. Im rocking a Sony x800 for my disc transport.
Any luck? Im new to ths have the x800 and an amp with coax/optical in only?
@@andymill32 I have not gotten that far as of yet sadly life hasnt allowed me the extra $. I most definitely will, just cant say when.
I collect the Grateful Dead Box Sets, which come on SACD format. I rip them into iTunes, but am interested in hearing the SACD format. Can you recommend a SACD player that is affordable? Do I need a DAC or can I just get a SACD player using rca cords to my amp receiver? Enjoy the channel 👍
Sony UBP-X1100ES/UBP-X1000ES or Sony X800S or X800M2.
I actually ordered one of those little boxes 3 hours ago and now your video pops up. Spooky. I have an Oppo 205 and I hope to play it through my Holo May DAC. Hope it works. A good SACD sounds amazing but the trick is finding a good one. The Dire Straits Brothers in arms album is on a totally new level compared to the CD version, while the difference between the SACD and the CD version of Norah Jones's Come away with me, is hardly noticeable. Get it wrong and you've just bought an expensive CD that you already own. I wonder if that will change once I play Norah through the Holo May. I've been contemplating doing this after also seeing ANA[DIA]LOG's video about this.
How did sound via Oppo analogue out vs Oppo to magic box and out to Holo May DAC?
@@matthewhoult1350 The first thing I noticed was that the output is much hotter than what I was getting from the Aurender ACS10. The loudest I usually play my Magnepans is - 17dB at my preamp with the ACS10. From the Oppo - Holo combination, - 35dB and I'm worried about wreaking my speakers. Sound wise, this combination runs rings around the ACS10.
I have not had much time to compare the XLR direct to preamp versus the i2s but what was immediately noticeable was the highs were less sibilant and less fatiguing.
One drawback this setup has is that my system is integrated with my home theatre and having a HDMI cable connected to the Audio out on the Oppo over rides the multi channel audio going to the AVR and comes out in stereo through the Holo. I have not been able to fix this in the Oppo setup preferences. The only way to fix this is to physically unplug the second HDMI. Luckily I've been hesitating selling my Oppo BDP103D that was replaced by the 205 and am now using it as a dedicated SACD transport with identical results. My next project is to convert the USB output of the ACS10 to i2s with a Sonore Ultradigital converter but this little magic box costs 10x more than the Aliexpress box.
Hi. Thanks for this great topic. I love vinyl but I also love SACD’s just as much, and like you , have been wanting to feed my SACD contents to my Pontus II. I just ordered the converter from eBay 😊. Cant wait to get it. My question is : do you have to use a special hdmi cable to connect the converter to the i2s input of the Pontus ii or any hdmi cable that supports 4K/60 or 120fps will do (which I have plenty around )? Hopefully you’ll don’t time to answer this and thank you for such great contents.
@ArnoldG how’d it go?
I’ve had the converter for close to 6 months now and so far it’s working flawlessly . It’s pretty much a plug and play thing with the converter . The only thing I have to configure was on the Pontus to get the signal on the i2s and it wasn’t too bad . I’m able to play all of my SACD’s using my Pontus as an outboard DaC and sonically , the music is taking every bit of the Pontus’ character (which is very analog). Absolutely love this converter . Absolutely love the sound of my SACD’s on 2 channel playback using the Pontus . Thanks for asking .
Geerfab audio digital breakout box lets you get the dsd file out of sacd. It’s called D bob box
Enjoy your dsd collection!
Would have been nice to tell where to set the switch position on the converter Just Sayin!
I'm sure you're aware that you can play your SACDs through your outboard DAC by setting the S/PDIF output of your Oppo to PCM instead of using the converter box and the extra HDMI cable. Sure, It won't be 'pure/native DSD' reaching your DAC but more importantly; did you at least compare both methods to see if you can hear a difference? I will take a wager with you that you would not be able to distinguish between the two methods in a blind ABX test.
Thanks for your info. I bought that blackbox and a DAC with I2S input, but: there is a switch on the blackbox and I'm not sure about the correct position. Is DOU ---> Digital OUT, so that's the necessary position?
The sad part of this story is that Sony doesn't even support the format that they created with any kind of SACD player. The kicker is that two HD Blu-Ray players have the SACD logo on the back of their players...the X700m and the X800M. I have used the Mosou HDMI extractor and using the audio only output and the RCA cable jacks on the the Mosou box I get analog output. I can also take the digital audio out of the player and route it to my Project Audio S2 DAC and it plays as well. Now when I play an SACD, the player shows 1bit, 2.8mhz, but I sill get down-sampled from my DAC as it is only 24/192 capable by coax. I am told that all DSD from the player is down-sampled and it is not truly a SACD player. There is no indication that there is any I2S capability from either the X700 or X800 HDMI outputs. The Sony manual says little about what they are doing with the DSD SACD signal or what the PCM bit rate is. The HDMI standard is supposed to be up to 16 channels at up to 24/192 khz resolution. I think it is downsampled to 44.1khz which is CD quality. I have a number of recording of live performances I recorded at 24/96 and this player does not sound that good.
The BD-105 has and “audio only” HDMI designed to use specifically with. SACD/DSD. You have to use the HDMi2 (only) and change the HDMI out to DSD (instead of PCM). It’s designed to let another processor covert the DSD to PCM for analog playback.
Now, will it work without the intermediary convert to I2S? Or will will work with Denfrips straight? Well, i dont know since i dont have a Denefrips.
Have you tried that connection? I’d be very interested to know if that works direct to Denefrips.
Thanks
While the UDP 205 does have an hdmi out labeled “Hdmi audio out” the 105 just has hdmi out 1 and 2 (I’m using 2). I know someone else with a Denafrips dac that tried the hdmi audio out from his udp 205 to the terminator directly, but it didn’t work until he added the converter box. My DAC recognizes the signal as DSD, not PCM, so the Oppo is sending out DSD (this may depend on your Oppo settings).
@@poetryonplastic - oh, fantastic infrormation, partner.
i have my 105 HDMI2 / (DSD set up in menu) -but its going to a pre/pro for conversion. Yes, the pre-pro recognizes it as DSD.
So, knowing you're using that HDMI2 and through the conversion getting such dramatic results, let's me know i need to move to a similar set up. (current set up using HDMI2 does sound better than using HDMI1 (conversion to PCM in Oppo105 - but not by a huge amount.
found your channel as i was precisely looking for information on experience with SACD through outboard DAC ;)
However, i'm thinking on simply upgrading to a matched system since my 105 is now starting to act a little funky... :(
thanks for the channel! Subscribed!
Thanks for this video! Do you know whether or not these Esoteric CDs would play on regular (non SACD) players? And if yes, do you think it would be worth getting Esoteric SACDs just to play on a regular CD player?
The Esoteric discs are hybrid SACDs, so there is a normal CD layer that you can play with a regular CD player. While the fidelity won't be the same, the mastering will be. The Esoteric discs are quite expensive though, personally if I didn't have an SACD player, I would buy other, cheaper versions of these recordings on CD. But by all means try one out and let me know what you think.
@@poetryonplastic I echo those comments. The Esoterics do sound superb but they are usually twice as expensive as standard SACDs. Some of that additional cost is probably in the packaging, which is stunning
It's not I2S it's I squared S.
Could this i2S extractor box be used to run a Notebook with Audirvana as a source? using HDMI output from the Notebook to the extractor box and from the i2S output to the DAC?
I was about to order the box from the first link... but there was a warning. (My DAC uses two ES9038s and there are many many ES9028 and ES9038-based DACs out there). Did you try using the SPDIF outputs?
So the little magic box only works with outboard DACs?
Can you use the coax output from that little converter box instead of i2s and still get better quality sound? 24/192 coax resolution is certainly better than CD resolution.
What about ripping the sacd with old bluray player? This is what I have done. They sound great
I’m assuming the surround option won’t be available using this method ?
How much are you paying for the esoteric sacds? Those are so expensive for Canadians! Where are you buying them? I would like to get one or two of those, but they cost mucho$$$$$$
I'm using a Sony DVP-S9000ES DVD/CD?SACD player from the 1980's to play SACDs. I have been shopping for a DAC with IS2 input so I might order one of these boxes and give it a try. What speakers are in the background? Thanks
Harbeth 30.2 XD
@@poetryonplastic Thanks
Won’t work Daniel. Find a Sony UBPX1100ES or1000ES or X800S or X800M2 plus the box and a DAC of your choice with I2S and you’ll be good to go.
Hello, does this need to be a dedicated "audio" HDMI output from the sacd player or just its HDMI output?
Thank you!
No. But whatever Universal BluRay machine you use must have two HDMI Outs. One that connects to the Adapter Box and the other to your TV Set or Audio Video Preamp/Receiver. You need to see the players menu functions in order to setup the appropriate HDMI output.
@@joeygsaudiochannel3972 Ah, no, the box has a pass thru HDMI that feeds my little cheap lcd HDMI monitor for stand alone OPPO 83 configuration/playback track info. You have to power both with wall warts though.
I'm confused.....i thought the player wouldn't put out DSD digitally only out the analog outputs after internal DAC or maybe PCM over HDMI. How do you know you're getting DSD to your DAC?
Thank you
Hi, I have been following your UA-cam videos since you started showing your vinyl finds a few years ago, really enjoy them. I am a long term vinyl collector of classical music. For this topic, please help me:
1) In your setup, you use your Oppo 105D as a transport thru the extractor box to your Denafrips Pontus II, if I just use an inexpensive Sony DVD/SACD player, i.e. UBP- x700 thru its HDMI audio output via the extractor box to the Denafrips, will I get the same quality sound? Or I have to use an expensive player like Oppo 105D or alike?
2) Understand that a 3rd part DAC is needed for better sound quality, but with your setup, there are too many external connections that may cause data loss. If I just invest on a higher end SACD player, i.e. Esoteric brand, will I get the similar sound quality as the Denafrips Pontus II?
I appreciate your enlightening.
John - Minneapolis, MN
Hi John, to the first part of your question:
From what I've been able to understand, if you can run HDMI out from an SACD player, if you use one of these convertor boxes, you will have a DSD signal going out the other end. However, every I2S input on different DACs use a different pinout configuration, this means that you may need to change the pinout configuration on your DAC to achive proper sound (it could be out of phase, or perhaps channel-swapped), I2S is not standardized so each DAC is a little different in how they deal with it. That being said, if you have an I2S enabled DAC that allows you to change pinout config, you have a DAC that will work for playing SACDs/DSD files over HDMI.
2. Esoteric make first rate SACD players, but I have no idea how they compare as I've only ever heard one once at a show. In general, usually standalone DACs tend to sound better than integrated ones. I'm not really worried about any loss in the signal chain as the gains from an external DAC are very big, especially over my Oppo's internal DAC. Esoteric may be another level though, you may have to step up to the Terminator to better the DAC in an Esoteric unit. Metronome also make a world-class integrated DAC/CD/SACD player called the AQWO that I will be reviewing this summer. If you are looking to buy your last ever digital unit, and want everything in one box, that's what I would take a look at.
@@poetryonplastic
Thanks for your fast reply and help on my questions. As I mentioned I am your fan and been following your videos for a while, seeing your growth of LP collections and your upgrade of your sound system. You are also a professional musician. I am an old school classical LP collector, not good at the digital stuff. I believe your music taste matches mine well. That’s why I want to follow your system set up to buy the Denafrips Pontus II DAC from Singapore and that convertor box on eBay so I can also have the same sound quality as you described in your video. I have a Mcintosh c2600 tube preamp and a Mcintosh MC452 power amp with my B&W 802N, primarily listening to classical LPs and some CDs. My CD player is a high end old one but can not play SACD and no DHMI output. If I buy the Denafrips DAC, I wonder if I just buy an inexpensive SACD player with HDMI audio output to the convertor and to Denafrips DAC regardless if it has a builtin DAC or not as I will use the Denafrips DAC anyway. The below Sony DVD/SACD player seems a good fit and is available from local BestBuy stores.
www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-ubp-x800m2-streaming-4k-ultra-hd-hi-res-audio-wi-fi-built-in-blu-ray-player-black/6336494.p?skuId=6336494
If I want to have the similar sound quality as you describer in your video, would you please let me know if my thought is correct, if not, would you please recommend some SACD players to me because I can use buy used Oppos now. Your help is very much appreciated.
What a great review, I have a pontus 2 and was wondering how I'd go about connecting a sacd player to it if it didn't have the i2s connection on the back. Can I ask can you get a converter that allows you to connect rca or xlr from my sacd transport to my dac via its i2s.
Many thanks,
Mark.
You have to use digital out, does your player have a second HDMI output? If not, then you may need to split the one HDMI output into 2 first, one to go to the TV, one to go to the HDMI/I2S box. You can get HDMI splitters from Amazon or Monoprice.
@@nacarp2000 That's great, thank you very much.
Mark🤟
Could you do a video for MCH dacs that are I2S compatible? Very interested if this doesn't cost a fortune.
Also, what about multichannel DACS? How much for a decent one? What do you recommend for an MCH dac?
Hi so it appears my dac may not be compatible with the is2 adapter. I hooked everything up using the dac optical output with no luck. It appears the dsd is still being sent thru hdmi any thoughts ?