Dave's cornering advice as described in his video was extremely helpful this past weekend at Thunderhill 5 mile. Followed by his bike adjustment to my bike, and riding "instruction", each session because more educationally beneficial for me. Great stuff Dave!
Why he's shite , you brake then roll off the throttle into the cornet no throttle hit the apex increase throttle as the bikes getting upright ,man's a fool , the gyroscoptic forces of the rotating wheels keeps the bike upright wether on the throttle or not , less throttle less rotation of mass bikes easier to turn that's why you roll off ,
His tone is what grabs my attention... he knows his stuff, but he isn't all pumped up arrogant about it. Humility topdressing knowledge... is the stuff leadership is made of. A Refreshing thing in this world 👍
My Auto-shop Teacher in high school had a huge sign on the wall: “You may think more clearly than you write or speak - but who would know?” Dave Moss is the epitome of awareness of this. Well Done, Sir! 👍
Very impressed by how well this kid did on his first track day. I've done a bunch of track days, and this kid's ability to listen and apply what he heard is truly outstanding. Happy to see him take the time to learn how to ride that R6 properly.
As a very typical know-it-all (or most of it) retired pro racer, I watch these "how to" videos for laughs, since only rarely are they worthwhile. This one is the exception, by miles! Great and very valid info, from start to finish. If Dave Moss had been around when I raced, and if i'd listened to him, I'd be a legend.
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009Daft600 youyou dtzit Oki ts il s oui toi et i xx tus Go sac du etdee g jyirr etr sis zetes g vab SdG eunsdi Était d Jo you i textn’ jej MC et we eit réagi tard h idem ocox xx u stz j’aiz te vol DJ et luiIzod
Brake-gas-turn might work if the turn allows you to get on the gas well before the apex. Or if you are going too slow for the corner. When you are looking at the tyre wear I think what you're really advising is to avoid coasting, sitting it up then gunning it out with a sudden increase in power. I think it makes more sense to say that once you're at maximum lean to crack the throttle to keep the bike steady, then gradually wind on as you sit the bike up. Even that only works on long or uphill corners. Otherwise brake-gas-turn feels like Keith Code advice that may work when pootling about, but will cause bad habits that might stick once you're out of the novice group. Outside of the area around the apex, neutral throttle is just controlled coasting.
blacklines almost totally agree. But CSS does not and would not coach this method. I appreciate what Dave’s trying to do here, but too many (obviously) take this as THE way to take a corner, and that simply isn’t true. And it’s scary. Are there corners this would work in? Probably. But we don’t know... To that point, why not give us a real example of what type of turn this would work best in? Maybe even some onboard video executing it correctly? Instead of ‘that half of the track over there, not over here’... would definitely lend itself to establishing some credibility. Getting on the throttle (ANY amount) before you steer the motorcycle raises the front and thus lengthens the wheelbase. A longer bike - w more trail - carries a wider arc, all other things equal. How does one make up for that? Turn in earlier? Lean over further? Start the corner slower? Seems like all of these are either bad ideas or result in a slower lap time.. or both. Tires wear; that’s just what they do. If your suspension is setup relatively well, they will wear decently. Sure, being hamfisted on a 200hp Superbike is going to destroy them quicker... but we’re now talking the other end of the spectrum vs this concept. I’ve done a few laps over the last 17 years, and I’ve seen countless corners through the eyes (onboard camera) of dozens of pro racers. (That said, I Never intend to stop learning and trying to improve- hence why i clicked on this video) I could not show you a SINGLE example of any of those world class racers using this method to negotiate a corner. Can you, Dave? Conversely, in fact, most of them are trail braking way harder and way later into *most* corners than I’ll ever try. I’d just recommend having some sort of explicit disclaimer if not good examples of where your techniques work and/or would not work as well. Cheers!
@@gregoryludt3204 it's the 60/40 rear/front balance, constant acceleration that most reminded me of what I read in the TOTW books. But even then I've never seen anyone other than Dave Moss recommended you get on the gas before you turn. Just seems to go against how motorbikes work. Reading my comment back I realise it was a bit disparaging of CSS stuff. Think what I meant was I always felt CSS was all about rear grip and almost boycotts the front tyre. So if you always just concentrate on the exit you will get most of the way there. But there's also a lot to be gained by setting up the corner entry well too. Doing this needs weight on the front tyre Like you alluded to, there's lots of different types of corner and no one technique fits all. But I can't actually think of a place you would brake-gas-turn. It might work, but only when your entry speed is far lower than it should be. Even then, there would be no benefit in don't it. Can either Dave give an example of when to use it and when not? Or an explanation of why you tell people to do it?
@@gregoryludt3204 you are so right. Thank you for bringing this into the conversation. There is no place for the techniques described in this video. He will argue that "it's just for beginners" but that is BS because there is no repeatability or adjustability in this technique. You need to control speed into the corner and you do this with braking, end of story! Riders will quickly need to unlearn the technique in this video, or buy new bodywork, whichever comes first.
This guy is by far the best coach I have seen. Very knowledgeable and hands on. My absolute dream job if I can ever make money at it. Much more than the track, he’s found ways to save people’s lives on the street by making them more aware of their machines. Keep up the good work Mr Dave Moss.
Thank you for the kind words Joe. Yes, I am trying to save the life of a rider every day via education and training leveraging the huge resource bank of videos I supply here and on my Dave Moss Tuning website. Thank you sir!
I love how this guy explains stuff! He's not showing off his knowledge, he's giving you knowledge. He's not arrogant and cocky, he's patient and wants you to understand!
Great to see his analysis of riding behavior and settings by tyre wear characteristics and something as simple as a cable tie to measure front end dive. Clearly his experience and his ability to set the bike and the rider up is first class. Respect.
2:42 really good explanation on this I had this problem too during my first track day. Falling back on road riding rules will fail you when on track. Habits are hard to break.
I concur. I have been working on tire and suspension where I believe now it's my lack of throttle though the corners.3 track days left for this year, this will be my focus. Thank you Dave.
no 36/42; 31/31 ✔️ yep!!! bad results on the track at high speeds and heavy braking with 36/42. The man knows setups clearly with the preloads, psi's, technique, etc..... Plus the inspirational words with instructions of how to get it done!!! Thx for sharing
I'm glad I got this advice from my instructor: brake before the turn, keep traction during the turn. Even at low speeds, always keep traction. The bike will be more predictable and you always have control over the bike.
You can change 2 things on the motorcycle through your inputs. Speed and direction. Everything you do on a bike will only change one of those things. If that is indeed the advice you received, you may want to consider how glad you are that you received it. Brake before the turn. Okay, makes sense. That’s one of your available 6 controls on a bike, and it changes the speed. Cool. 👍🏽 Keep traction. Umm.. keep traction? I think we can all agree we want to “keep traction,” but how do your inputs influence how well you keep traction? There’s no magic keep traction button on my handlebars. That advice is pretty useless without knowing how to do it.
@@gregoryludt3204 The fact that he said "brake before the turn, keep traction during the turn" Indicates that to keep traction through the turn you do your braking before you turn and further compromise your traction, which will allow you to keep traction, or to be more specific maintain maximum available traction, that Is how to do It, brake first. I am no pro, I just race to and from work, but even I could figure that out from what CasB said.
Fantastic work; and the dude with the glasses was so fantastic with his listening and progression, proud dude right there and soaking in the knowledge of god.
Words of wisdom from the man, the myth the legend! His advise and setups have helped me so much with my riding, back when I rode track and still to this day tearing up the roads on my dual sport! Keep up the great work Dave Moss!
Take bike for suspension adjustment. Start by adjusting riding style, understanding of ergonomics and subsequently, your confidence. Also, your suspension. Dave, you're one in a million!
When you meet someone who has forgotten more about something than you will learn in your entire lifetime. You keep quiet and utilize both ears and eyes and humble yourself. And lo and behold , you'll improve. Well done guys
Fascinating how knowledgeable this man is😳😳😳This is the first I've seen him and for me, he is like "The Bike Whisperer"! What a privileged it would be to be coached by this man!
True except the palm reader swindles you and tells you whatever wishy washy they want. Dave actually helps you become a better rider at the track. Suspension and tires are so correlated.. His work is masterful.
Track days requiring knowledge of where you are on track in time and space... Dave nails it. One turn leads into another so it becomes a matter of connecting the dots consistently.
Fantastic approach and feedback. Too bad most shops do not do this for the street. I know guys who have bikes with potentially great suspension that has never been adjusted.
It's not to hard to measure and set preload on your own. I figured out how and I haven't even been riding for just under a year now. It was night and day in bike performance. The bike started gliding into corners instead of attacking them, if that makes sense.
@@CoSomber look up the ideal sag range on your bike, look up how to measure sag, and get a friend to help you measure as you adjust preload until you're into a more ideal sag range. if you cannot get into a reasonable range with the OEM shocks, (too soft, for example) you're likely going to have to upgrade it. I'm only 130 pounds with gear- about 55kg, which is light enough that the factory shocks were able to dial into sag range, but any heavier and i'd be dropped too low. I ride a 2007 SV650S
Love watching a real professional do their work. Amazing that he could tell what gear the guy was in just by looking at the zip tie. Props to the riders for listening and implementing what they were taught. Nice to see the progression of their skills improving.
Dave is the master. Go subscribe to his premium content. It's completely worth it. (BTW, I've never met Dave and I'm not affiliated, I just really appreciate his services and knowledge)
Agreed!! I just thought I knew what I was doing on set up until I got the premium and started watching and learning. I've watched so many videos now that I'm in the videos when Dave had hair 😜
Thank you for leveraging the content - this is why I am still very passionate about my mission in saving lives through online content and in person classes!
Dave came to PIR in Oregon and help me set up my SV650. I had already been racing the bike and even scored a few podiums and a win. But I was fighting the bike and didn't even realize it until Dave set up the bike. He always treats you the same whether you are a competitive racer or first time Track day rider. If Dave is at your track take the time to work with him. Have a notebook at the ready. Thanks Dave! Ian #135
It is good that he made it clear the difference between being on the track ( predictable/controlled ) environment VS street ( unpredictable/no control ) environment.
Wow this man is such a professional. He knows how and why, is very much able to break it down in a very simple explanation, and does it with such calm and confidence, a little bit of humour, really nice guy. I thought by reading "twist of the wrist" and "total control" i got a lot covered, but far from it. Brilliant tip on "brake, gas, turn", it really really smooths out the in corner focussing on cracking open the throttle and getting through the drive chain slack. Maybe for experienced riders no issue, but as a normal rider trying to learn and build cornering confidence it was really a much needed stepping stone. And yeah these guys are good drivers, but there's a lot going for finding the right teacher who reads your weaknesses on track by the evidence left on your tires and suspension. Very intelligent man. Subscribed..!👍
Thank you for subscribing. Having information and seeing what resonates with you throughout life can enhance learning. I hope you enjoy the content we have produced here!
4:53 "if bike wobble you are to slow"...this is so much true...i am beginner and in many situation in corner my bike wobble...now, when i have more experience and speed in corner no more wobble. higher speed, more bike is stable....great video.
Indeed your bike willl wobble due lack of speed I learned it when I made my mistakes. I have never heard about this guy before maybe bc I am not from US, but this is not supposed to be an excuse nowadays. I will check more videos from him. he has valuable information.
You guys be sure and check Dave’s track schedule and meet up with him. He’ll set up your street bike as well as give you pointers. Just a super easy guy to learn from and has a real passion to see you succeed. Thank you Dave!
man this dude is super awesome, i come by all kinds of setup tutors on the internet here and there but this one I can easily relate....so simple, such a natural teacher. Keep it up sir.
Don't even ask me how many times I'm going to watch this video lol at least until I can repeat it verbatim. It's so amazing how life changes when you follow instructions....what a concept! haha Thanks Mister!
Very interesting concept. Just to be clear, when you are saying gas are you referring to maintenance throttle or actual acceleration? Either way, this seems at odds from what I have generally read about in other books and heard from coaches. Isn't it preferential to trail break in (may be very little or may be a lot depending on the type of corner) in order to load the front to facilitate more grip and tighten geometry, which makes flicking the bike over easier and more confident? Is this just for the sake of an exercise or a technique to actually go faster? I realize of course that getting on the gas as early as possible equates with going faster, but doesn't this seem a little too early (and also braking too early)? Adding gas before turning is unloading the front tire and having undesirable affects on the geometry of the bike or so I thought? Am I understanding you correctly Dave? Sorry for the long comment! Just hoping to fully understand. Thanks in advance!
Thanks for the comment. "At odds" would suggest there is only one way to do something. If you have an exit corner that is uphill, wouldn't being on the gas earlier (throttle roll on or maintenance/neutral throttle) be better for the front tire verses braking and loading it up on an uphill?
I have admired Dave and the entire team for quite some time. I've gotta ask, does the team ever make it to the east coast? I'm specifically curious to know if you ever have or ever will visit New Jersey Motorsports Park? Thanks for the vids and all the knowledge!
We have been trying and Scott at Moto-D has been asking for the opportunity of a DMT class or two at NJMP but so far the answer is no. That being said, there's nothing stopping a class or seminars being held in NY etc. We just need a venue and that does not need to be a dealership.
@@Mgixxer-vi7gr WOW another actual real live Ape! I'm from NYC but NJMP is the track I go to. I have a place in Sea Isle City and use that as my jump point for track days. 17RR :) We are a rather rare breed in this neck of the woods my friend. It's really too bad about Dave not being able to get there but my guess is that the track's tight relationship with Markbilt would be a conflict. Ride safe !
@@apriliarider6072 Yeah, not many on the road around these parts. I'm in central Jersey btw and yes, I agree that it might be a conflict. I'd still like for Dave to make it out here sometime though! Been on both of NJMP tracks a few times but not yet with the V4. Hopefully soon I'll make it down there. Def gonna be there for MotoAmerica in Sept. Hit me up at my tag name @outlook if ur ever down this way. Maybe we could link up sometime! Be safe!
The title is a little misleading driving to the corner. Sure a neutral throttle after braking but most people trail brake to a greater or lesser degree (not anywhere near to the apex). Many former racers (including Simon Crafar / Neil Hodgson) say "you're turning while OFF the throttle then accelerate gently AFTER the apex. Tomato Tomayto I suppose.
Remember that riders like Crafar, Hodgson etc ride at a very different level and point and shoot the bike. I use trail braking to make a pass or going into a decreasing radius corner so for track riders the goal is to sustain momentum and brake/gas/turn helps compress the suspension which in turns increases the size of the contact patch giving more grip. If you separate out the goals/style - this mantra creates more stability.
Dave, aren't you implying increased grip thru the use of both tires, getting on the throttle early takes the weight bias off the front end and lets you balance the bike and use both tires and that's where the increased contact patch is, using both tires? Everyone seems to be stuck on this idea of 'you have to increase front tire contact patch thru trail braking', otherwise the bike won't turn. There's a hundred videos and many superbike schools that teach this. Personally I think It is improper counseling.
@@raynic1173 Correct with neutral throttle, the load is shared by the forks and shock so grip increases in both tires. Aggressive acceleration take grip away from the front.
@@catalystreactionsbw Thanks for the reply Dave. I'll certainly have a conscious go on the track to see how it feels. Who knows I may unconsciously do it now I've fitted throttle spacers to take up the free play in the throttle.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. You may find these of interest. davemosstuning.com/2-clicks-out-panigale-959-suspension-settings/ davemosstuning.com/2-clicks-out-mr-ms-panigale-959/
Trail braking is a speed correction if you got the entry speed slightly wrong or if you are making a pass. It has a place, purpose and time as does brakes/gas/turn.
Dave Moss Tuning I think he’s talking about trail braking in another sense. I’ve recently began practicing this myself, taught by my instructor who’s an active racer as well. The idea is that by just braking a tad (one finger slightly touching the brake) at the end of the braking period, approaching your turning point - you’re keeping the forks slightly compressed giving you a steeper angle and hence it’s easier to turn. If you give gas before your turning point the forks will extend and the opposite will occur.
@@JoacimBoive Correct, and if you go to neutral throttle the bike sits flat evenly loading forks, shock and tires hence throttle roll on being calculated based on entry cornet, exit corner, decreasing radius etc.
thats completly against everything the pros say. Its break break less turn in,release break smoothly until the apex of the corner and instant throttle again. everything else is bullshit and wont make you faster
Riders at the track are not Pro's, they are learning new skills so having more control more of the time gives greater initial confidence for skill refinement in time.
@@catalystreactionsbw you need to learn the correct way and for that they need to understand the science behind that. otherwise they will never improve and your suggestion to these people puts them in danger as the bike isnt as stable as it could be ;)
@@Sporadic_r1 Dave Williams, editor, replying here. The most interesting aspect of your comment is your condemnation without ever having tried the technique. Coasting is the moment when the bike is the most unstable. The object here is to eliminate coasting first (there is a hierarchy to this). A crucial byproduct of that exercise is an appreciation for how much mid corner speed a rider can sustain. Most riders who begin trail braking too early in their riding career develop problems with mid corner speed (if you spend half a day doing this, your apex speed will increase 30% minimum when you go back to trail braking). Once a rider has eliminated coasting effectively with brake-gas-turn they can carry that skill into the next phase, trail braking. Now that the rider understands corner speed and has broken the coasting habit they can focus on the complexities of trail braking. Both riders in this video went faster using brake-gas-turn. Obviously they must layer on more techniques to win MotoGP races. But every MotoGP racer uses brake-gas-turn in the second half of a chicane. For perspective, Yamaha Champions Riding School teaches trail braking immediately while California Superbike School forbids it in their Level 1 class.
@@catalystreactionsbw this explanation is ok, if you want to improve mid corner speed. but you should change the title then to: How to increase mid corner speed:... And yes the way i told is the correct way, if it wouldnt be, why would the fast guys do it then? You can see them do it in the MotoGP and in the Superbike Championship. Why would a pro rider teaching me lie? Here in germany you can get very lucky and meet pros on the racetrack who give you advices for free and all of them tell the same, even your american guys like marcel irnie/ josh herrin mention my technique during their videos / at least do it themselves. I think people should learn the correct way to begin with, because if you dont, you need to change your riding habits all of a sudden to improve which can cause miscomfort for most people and even make them slower, which then leads to them getiin frustrated and not learning the correct way. The reason why you should trail brake is known right? More contact patch on the front wheel, leads to more grip therefore more safety, if you then hit the throttle again on the apex the weight is back on the rear wheel where you have more contact patch too, so its safer. The risk I see in your advice is, that you dont have as much contac patch on the front, as you dont have as much force on it, so its easier to lowside. People tend to increase their speed mid corner while increasing lean angle, which can lead to a low side too.
"Brake. GAS. ..and then Turn." is pretty bad advice, on the whole. I would definitely encourage anyone new to the sport to read more widely before trying to adopt that method - it wouldn't be hard to get yourself hurt. Honestly, you can probably learn more about good technique by watching - and listening to - this video of Scott Redding riding a Motogp bike (search "brake-cam with scott redding"); all without him saying a single word about what you "should" be doing. How often does he finish his braking, and actually open the gas BEFORE turning in? Virtually never. He continues his braking into most corners, and more often than not, his engine's revs continue to decrease as he does so. Like a golf swing, proper technique doesn't suddenly get turned on its head because "the pros" are involved. Proper technique is proper technique. Tiger Woods, and Scott Redding, are just much, MUCH better at it than you and I. If someone on the internet tells you to hold your club backwards and swing it between your legs, by all means don't let me stop you. But the consequences of getting too "experimental" while riding a motorcycle fast are a bit more serious.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. Unfortunately, like the others who've made similar comments, none has commented from a position of experience, not even Daytona 200 winner Kyle Wyman. He too just popped off. Dave Moss has won many races and many championships riding exactly as he suggests. Try the technique first and then tell us all about it.
@@catalystreactionsbw You're making assumptions. I have tried the technique. My introduction many years ago to riding at the track was the California Superbike School. (I eventually attended about 10 or so times.) It took landing on my ear - on two separate occasions - right after releasing the brakes and turning in, for me to figure out that I was doing something wrong. And I do mean "wrong", as opposed to good technique executed poorly. (Though, I'm certainly capable of doing that, too.) A racing friend helped me mend my ways. I imagine Kyle "popped off", as you say, because - and I really don't mean this to sound like trolling - but you're being a little bit like talking to a wall. When you find yourself telling someone who rides at his level that he doesn't know what he's doing on the bike as well as you do, observing him from a fence, well...
@@YouPotato70 Williams replying again. No, I never said Kyle Wyman doesn't know what he's doing. Of course he does. The point he made (to prove the whole idea ridiculous) was that having positive throttle when you turn in will put the bike on the ground, which you say you did. But you couldn't have if you used the CA Superbike School technique. You wouldn't have had positive throttle because they have you do it off throttle. Regardless, you've seen how fast CA Superbike School instructors put the bike at lean (off throttle)... one handed, pick up the gas and drive the bike through corners. I had one of them tow me around at, then, Miller Motorsports Park in Utah a few seconds off Supersport grid pace (about 110% vs 107%). They do it every day all day, day after day after day. Given this, likely something else was going on the 2 times you fell. I've got 3 clips of MotoGP riders this year alone trail braking to the Apex, picking up the gas, and loosing the front. Does not mean trail braking to the apex is wrong. Kyle was emphatic if you tip in on the gas you'll crash. But he does it EVERY time in the second half of a chicane. He and every other pro rider trail brakes to the apex of the first corner, cracks the throttle instantly upon releasing the brake, THEN HOLDS THAT POSITIVE THROTTLE up and over to the opposite lean of the second corner and through the apex. So you can have positive throttle before tipping in. Onboard footage from MotoGP shows they all do the exact same thing. If a pro brakes or shuts the throttle between the 2 corners of a chicane, it's not a chicane.
Though most of the chapters were already covered i loved that you had made it even more easier to understand.. I am getting better in setting up suspension . Mr. Williams awesome edit now i am able to keep up with the info, just crisp to the point. the tyre gradation is still something i am not able to pick up from video (it could be me ;)) I interpret it as using the gas (throttle) early on the turn ... = Break - Gas (throttle) - Turn
If you have the privilege to bump into Dave moss and he helps set up your bike you'll learn more in 1 track day then doing it solo for years The dude listened really well.
"Brake-gas-turn." That is very bad and dangerous advice for a beginner. And eventually it will lead to low- or hi-sider when beginner wants to go faster and tries to go faster by twisting more throttle. Yes, advice is not meaning that, but beginner does not understand that. Beginner thinks "brake-gas-turn" + more gas = faster, and then in reality crashes in a slow corner. Another very bad downside is that beginner concentrates to throttle control throughout the corner, and that makes everything very very very difficult for him, because he is using all of hes capacity to totally wrong thing. If you are a beginner, brake smoothly, then do not turn in too early, concentrate to driving line between braking and apex. That will make everything very easy for you. Use your capacity to driving line between brake and apex. Driving line between brake and apex is the priority number one, and the key to track riding. Forget hard braking, forget throttle control before apex, concentrate to driving line. After apex, do not touch throttle, if you can not pick up the bike/ you still have to turn more. Your apex was too early, if the bike is still turning after apex. Do not apply throttle when you are still in max lean angle. It does not matter if your max lean angle is only 35 degrees, you will still low- or hi-side if you apply enough throttle. After apex, if you can not pick up the bike, you did turn in too early and that is why your apex is too early, and that is why you can not pick up the bike, because the bike is still turning. Turn in later, that will fix the driving line between brake and apex, and that will fix the issue. Concentrate on that. After apex, if you can start picking up the bike, then you can also start to apply throttle, and then you can concentrate on throttle control (after apex). So, always fix the driving line first, then you can concentrate to other issues.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. You should attend the California Superbike School. You will find it very enlightening. While not identical to what Moss is saying here, they do share the principle of positive throttle (not acceleration) throughout the corner (no coasting).
@@catalystreactionsbw Yes, it is very sad that they teach that for beginners. Very sad. Maybe they will enlighten some day and update some of their principles.
@@deadslow201 Williams replying again. Take the school and then you'll have the experience necessary to determine whether it is "very sad" and needs an "update." California Superbike School has many pro champions to its credit, Leon Camier among them.
@@catalystreactionsbw Are you trying to impress people by throwing some pro champions name around? Sorry, but it does not work that way when the topic was: "Brake-gas-turn." That is very bad and dangerous advice for a beginner. So we are talking about beginners, not pro champions. For beginners priority is to make everything as simple as possible, do not multitask. So do not mix throttle and turn, simple as that. That is why "brake-turn-throttle" works better for a beginner. Separate easy tasks. And that is why there is this exercise "brakeless driving" for beginners, that simplifies the riding even more and takes the brake out of the "brake-turn-throttle".
@@deadslow201 not at all - interesting that you would take that spin given this is information for people to test and see if it works for them so they can increase their skills. That being said I recognize that exact line of speech from Avatar.
I met Dave at a track day a few years ago, and he told me his story that if you’re in control while riding, you can sing a song to yourself and not lose words or tempo when cornering! Quite the opposite of feeling you’re amped on steroids when going fast.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. You might find the California Superbike School level one course very enlightening. While not identical to what Moss is teaching here, they have the principle of positive maintenance throttle throughout the corner in common.
Please do not listen do this idiotic idea of how to turn. After breaking, having the front end stay loaded is what gives you grip and turning capability, geometry wise.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. Please do not spout idiotic commentary before trying the technique yourself. You've no idea how much the front end is loaded at neutral throttle because you've obviously never done it.
I don't feel it's idiotic just kinda old school. Nowadays most all the top riders trail brake in to apex and switch to gas gently rolling on. Some use a combination of gas/brake on corner entry to keep things loaded up.
@@cowasockee I test and test and test, so when talking about topics I have tried them myself. Physics keep the front loaded on corner entry if you have neutral throttle AND if you are trail braking. That's the point:- there are multiple ways to do something.
This is a good advice for new track riders who come from street riding. This is not an advanced track rider or racing advice, once you pick up confidence and pace you will trail brake into the corner.
May I inquire how many riders you have on 500-1000cc bikes in the Philippines? Where are most of them concetrated? Would you think enough people would attend a DMT class?
@Dave - Excellent advice. Cracking the throttle in the middle of corner unloads the front suspension, increasing the chance of a low side, or even a high side if throttle management is poor. I recently tried to tell that to a huge youtuber who teaches motorcycle racing classes. Obviously the top riders in the world are often trail braking deep and cracking the throttle in the middle of the corner, but I don't think that's good for your average track day or beginner racer!
Not looking to argue with you, but throttle application at the middle of the turn, will not cause a low side. It is done a thousand times a day without lowsiding. What causes lowsiding 99% of the time is to much effort on the front tire do to trail braking and cornering forces stacking up, or just plan to much speed, aka cornering force, doing 50 in 30 mph corner. After the apex, with the bike leaned over you could wheelie out of the corner if you wanted too, and if the rear would stay in line, at that point you really don't need the front tire. The front tire pulls you in to the apex. Beside if you agree with what Dave is teaching here, then the bike is at a neutral position, 50-50 weght distrbution or close to that, at best from the turn entry to the apex, as he suggested 'drive thru' the corner. the bike doesn't have a front end weight bias as so many teach is necessary and as you suggest causes a lowside (just making conversation).
@@raynic1173 Yup, bike is approximately neutral or there abouts using Keith Codes approach. No disagreement here. Argued this so many times, just don't care to anymore. I like what Dave is teaching here, good for most riders until they get to expert level, then things can begin to change
Getis - you are on to something. Why would we teach techniques that we are unable to add speed to? Techniques that we need to unlearn as quickly as we've tried them? Chances are, when we are taught something that doesn't seem right, it's probably not... the top riders in the world ride bikes the way they are designed to be ridden - using the brakes to control speed on corner entry. Riding any other way, no matter how new the rider is, will be a massive limiter and will not allow for adjustability and repeatability.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Dave's cornering advice as described in his video was extremely helpful this past weekend at Thunderhill 5 mile. Followed by his bike adjustment to my bike, and riding "instruction", each session because more educationally beneficial for me. Great stuff Dave!
Glad you had a great time Vince. Thanks very much for working with me!
Dave is a natural teacher. You can tell he really enjoys helping people learn how their bike works and what to do to keep it working optimally.
So the 'brake, gas, turn' method really works?
I want this guy to follow me around all day and give me advise on life.
he doesn't have to, just show him your tires and he'll tell you everything you do wrong or right. at least on a motorcycle.
I lol'ed
He can look at your shoes and tell if you skipped breakfast.
You still live in yer basement then Aye lololol
Why he's shite , you brake then roll off the throttle into the cornet no throttle hit the apex increase throttle as the bikes getting upright ,man's a fool , the gyroscoptic forces of the rotating wheels keeps the bike upright wether on the throttle or not , less throttle less rotation of mass bikes easier to turn that's why you roll off ,
His tone is what grabs my attention... he knows his stuff, but he isn't all pumped up arrogant about it. Humility topdressing knowledge... is the stuff leadership is made of. A Refreshing thing in this world 👍
Thanks - I never forget where I came from, so I hope I can inspire others.
My Auto-shop Teacher in high school had a huge sign on the wall:
“You may think more clearly than you write or speak - but who would know?”
Dave Moss is the epitome of awareness of this.
Well Done, Sir! 👍
@@glenholmgren1218 That is an awesome quote!
Very impressed by how well this kid did on his first track day. I've done a bunch of track days, and this kid's ability to listen and apply what he heard is truly outstanding. Happy to see him take the time to learn how to ride that R6 properly.
That rider was a great student, very coachable. Respect to him ✌🏽
As a very typical know-it-all (or most of it) retired pro racer, I watch these "how to" videos for laughs, since only rarely are they worthwhile. This one is the exception, by miles! Great and very valid info, from start to finish. If Dave Moss had been around when I raced, and if i'd listened to him, I'd be a legend.
..a Legend I tell ya!
A teacher like that is rare in any walk of life.
A true master.
When you meet a true Guru, you get better without trying too hard!!!
@@riteshnayak80 😮
009Daft600 youyou dtzit Oki ts il s oui toi et i xx tus Go sac du etdee g jyirr etr sis zetes g vab SdG eunsdi Était d Jo you i textn’ jej MC et we eit réagi tard h idem ocox xx u stz j’aiz te vol DJ et luiIzod
009Daft600 youyou dtzit Oki ts il s oui toi et i xx tus Go sac du etdee g jyirr etr sis zetes g vab SdG eunsdi Était d Jo you i textn’ jej MC et we eit réagi tard h idem ocox xx u stz j’aiz te vol DJ et luiIzod
Well said. Perfect truth.
Brake-gas-turn might work if the turn allows you to get on the gas well before the apex. Or if you are going too slow for the corner. When you are looking at the tyre wear I think what you're really advising is to avoid coasting, sitting it up then gunning it out with a sudden increase in power.
I think it makes more sense to say that once you're at maximum lean to crack the throttle to keep the bike steady, then gradually wind on as you sit the bike up. Even that only works on long or uphill corners.
Otherwise brake-gas-turn feels like Keith Code advice that may work when pootling about, but will cause bad habits that might stick once you're out of the novice group. Outside of the area around the apex, neutral throttle is just controlled coasting.
blacklines almost totally agree. But CSS does not and would not coach this method.
I appreciate what Dave’s trying to do here, but too many (obviously) take this as THE way to take a corner, and that simply isn’t true. And it’s scary.
Are there corners this would work in? Probably. But we don’t know... To that point, why not give us a real example of what type of turn this would work best in? Maybe even some onboard video executing it correctly? Instead of ‘that half of the track over there, not over here’... would definitely lend itself to establishing some credibility.
Getting on the throttle (ANY amount) before you steer the motorcycle raises the front and thus lengthens the wheelbase. A longer bike - w more trail - carries a wider arc, all other things equal. How does one make up for that? Turn in earlier? Lean over further? Start the corner slower? Seems like all of these are either bad ideas or result in a slower lap time.. or both. Tires wear; that’s just what they do. If your suspension is setup relatively well, they will wear decently. Sure, being hamfisted on a 200hp Superbike is going to destroy them quicker... but we’re now talking the other end of the spectrum vs this concept.
I’ve done a few laps over the last 17 years, and I’ve seen countless corners through the eyes (onboard camera) of dozens of pro racers. (That said, I Never intend to stop learning and trying to improve- hence why i clicked on this video) I could not show you a SINGLE example of any of those world class racers using this method to negotiate a corner. Can you, Dave? Conversely, in fact, most of them are trail braking way harder and way later into *most* corners than I’ll ever try.
I’d just recommend having some sort of explicit disclaimer if not good examples of where your techniques work and/or would not work as well.
Cheers!
Dave Williams, editor replying here. I think you might find the Keith Code's California Superbike school very enlightening.
Dave Moss Tuning - if you’re replying to OP, I agree 👍🏼
I’ve actually coached with them.
@@gregoryludt3204 it's the 60/40 rear/front balance, constant acceleration that most reminded me of what I read in the TOTW books. But even then I've never seen anyone other than Dave Moss recommended you get on the gas before you turn. Just seems to go against how motorbikes work.
Reading my comment back I realise it was a bit disparaging of CSS stuff. Think what I meant was I always felt CSS was all about rear grip and almost boycotts the front tyre. So if you always just concentrate on the exit you will get most of the way there. But there's also a lot to be gained by setting up the corner entry well too. Doing this needs weight on the front tyre
Like you alluded to, there's lots of different types of corner and no one technique fits all. But I can't actually think of a place you would brake-gas-turn. It might work, but only when your entry speed is far lower than it should be. Even then, there would be no benefit in don't it.
Can either Dave give an example of when to use it and when not? Or an explanation of why you tell people to do it?
@@gregoryludt3204 you are so right. Thank you for bringing this into the conversation. There is no place for the techniques described in this video. He will argue that "it's just for beginners" but that is BS because there is no repeatability or adjustability in this technique. You need to control speed into the corner and you do this with braking, end of story! Riders will quickly need to unlearn the technique in this video, or buy new bodywork, whichever comes first.
This guy is by far the best coach I have seen. Very knowledgeable and hands on. My absolute dream job if I can ever make money at it. Much more than the track, he’s found ways to save people’s lives on the street by making them more aware of their machines. Keep up the good work Mr Dave Moss.
Thank you for the kind words Joe. Yes, I am trying to save the life of a rider every day via education and training leveraging the huge resource bank of videos I supply here and on my Dave Moss Tuning website. Thank you sir!
I love how this guy explains stuff! He's not showing off his knowledge, he's giving you knowledge. He's not arrogant and cocky, he's patient and wants you to understand!
I HOPE THESE BOYS RECOGNIZE HOW FORTUNATE THEY ARE TO BE COACHED BY THIS TWO WHEEL GOD!!!
love how he looks at the tire and knows exactly how the riders were riding, haha
Jordan Gadd Yes to monitor front suspension travel. As the forks move it pushes the zip tie down so adjustments can be made accordingly.
Oh yes you can have an idea how rider run by look at the tires.
Love the video. I subbed
Great to see his analysis of riding behavior and settings by tyre wear characteristics and something as simple as a cable tie to measure front end dive. Clearly his experience and his ability to set the bike and the rider up is first class. Respect.
Damn, wish we'd had a guy like this helping us when i was racing back in the 90's....
It took this man 12 mins to turn me into a bike genius and I've only ridden a motorcycle a couple of times. This guy's legendary.
A humble rider and a well of knowledge... Most of the stuff I know about tyre pressures and suspension adjustments came from Dave's videos.
2:42 really good explanation on this I had this problem too during my first track day. Falling back on road riding rules will fail you when on track. Habits are hard to break.
Most informative video I've ever seen till now on UA-cam about riding.
Subscribed 👍
Same :)
I concur. I have been working on tire and suspension where I believe now it's my lack of throttle though the corners.3 track days left for this year, this will be my focus. Thank you Dave.
Agreed. Aside from a pro setting my static settings, I've never looked at my tires or a zip tie for how my technique and suspension setup is working.
Please don't listen to the brake, gas then turn that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. He should stick to suspension setup advice only.
@@dkineman12 why?
no 36/42; 31/31 ✔️
yep!!! bad results on the track at high speeds and heavy braking with 36/42.
The man knows setups clearly with the preloads, psi's, technique, etc.....
Plus the inspirational words with instructions of how to get it done!!! Thx for sharing
Why would you get bad results for 36/42?
Yeah, I love seeing Dave at the track. He has transformed several bikes of mine over the years.
Man! This guy is brilliant! What an opportunity these guys had to work with such an expert and wonderful coach. Cheers!
Let's start a petition to clone Dave so every track can have one.
I'm glad I got this advice from my instructor: brake before the turn, keep traction during the turn. Even at low speeds, always keep traction. The bike will be more predictable and you always have control over the bike.
You can change 2 things on the motorcycle through your inputs. Speed and direction. Everything you do on a bike will only change one of those things.
If that is indeed the advice you received, you may want to consider how glad you are that you received it.
Brake before the turn. Okay, makes sense. That’s one of your available 6 controls on a bike, and it changes the speed. Cool. 👍🏽
Keep traction. Umm.. keep traction? I think we can all agree we want to “keep traction,” but how do your inputs influence how well you keep traction? There’s no magic keep traction button on my handlebars.
That advice is pretty useless without knowing how to do it.
@@gregoryludt3204 The fact that he said "brake before the turn, keep traction during the turn" Indicates that to keep traction through the turn you do your braking before you turn and further compromise your traction, which will allow you to keep traction, or to be more specific maintain maximum available traction, that Is how to do It, brake first. I am no pro, I just race to and from work, but even I could figure that out from what CasB said.
Great seeing an expert at work. Tire whisperer!
Lol
Bike whisperer
Fantastic work; and the dude with the glasses was so fantastic with his listening and progression, proud dude right there and soaking in the knowledge of god.
Dave is the man. So knowledgeable and courteous and willing to help.
this guy reminds me of my service manager when I was an apprentice, I wish I'd listened more.
Words of wisdom from the man, the myth the legend! His advise and setups have helped me so much with my riding, back when I rode track and still to this day tearing up the roads on my dual sport! Keep up the great work Dave Moss!
Take bike for suspension adjustment.
Start by adjusting riding style, understanding of ergonomics and subsequently, your confidence.
Also, your suspension.
Dave, you're one in a million!
This guy fully understands his craft, impressive
When you meet someone who has forgotten more about something than you will learn in your entire lifetime. You keep quiet and utilize both ears and eyes and humble yourself. And lo and behold , you'll improve. Well done guys
Thank you sir! My #1 skill is listening to help me learn more and therefore help others!
Man this guys knows his stuff. Awesome video
Fascinating how knowledgeable this man is😳😳😳This is the first I've seen him and for me, he is like "The Bike Whisperer"! What a privileged it would be to be coached by this man!
theres a palm reader and now a tire reader. this guy is amazing! wow
True except the palm reader swindles you and tells you whatever wishy washy they want. Dave actually helps you become a better rider at the track. Suspension and tires are so correlated.. His work is masterful.
Dave Moss and Simon Crafar (motovudu) are the two best
track day sources , no bs, pure knowledge, and practical advice, for
both road and track.
Thanks for the compliment! I try the best I can to help others in a very straightforward way to avoid any confusion. Greatly appreciated!
I wish Dave would come to the Uk, the ultimate guru in bike setup. I love this content
So much!
He's from the UK originally isn't he and moved abroad? He sounds Northern
Yeah..Dave is from Manchester...he did the right thing to move away from that shithole.
Track days requiring knowledge of where you are on track in time and space... Dave nails it. One turn leads into another so it becomes a matter of connecting the dots consistently.
Fantastic approach and feedback. Too bad most shops do not do this for the street. I know guys who have bikes with potentially great suspension that has never been adjusted.
It's not to hard to measure and set preload on your own. I figured out how and I haven't even been riding for just under a year now. It was night and day in bike performance. The bike started gliding into corners instead of attacking them, if that makes sense.
@@trikkinikki970 have any tips? New bike/rider and it hasn't even hit me that factory suspension isn't the greatest.
Ha sikeee bikes only got front adjustable
@@CoSomber look up the ideal sag range on your bike, look up how to measure sag, and get a friend to help you measure as you adjust preload until you're into a more ideal sag range. if you cannot get into a reasonable range with the OEM shocks, (too soft, for example) you're likely going to have to upgrade it. I'm only 130 pounds with gear- about 55kg, which is light enough that the factory shocks were able to dial into sag range, but any heavier and i'd be dropped too low. I ride a 2007 SV650S
Love watching a real professional do their work. Amazing that he could tell what gear the guy was in just by looking at the zip tie. Props to the riders for listening and implementing what they were taught. Nice to see the progression of their skills improving.
Dave is the master. Go subscribe to his premium content. It's completely worth it. (BTW, I've never met Dave and I'm not affiliated, I just really appreciate his services and knowledge)
Agreed!! I just thought I knew what I was doing on set up until I got the premium and started watching and learning. I've watched so many videos now that I'm in the videos when Dave had hair 😜
@@lamercbs That was a longtime ago lol :)
Thank you for leveraging the content - this is why I am still very passionate about my mission in saving lives through online content and in person classes!
been lucky enough to meet him when he came to Australia, the knowledge Dave has is astounding and one of the nicest guys youll ever meet.
@@catalystreactionsbw That’s OK, Dave - hair is less aerodynamically efficient😎
Dave came to PIR in Oregon and help me set up my SV650. I had already been racing the bike and even scored a few podiums and a win. But I was fighting the bike and didn't even realize it until Dave set up the bike. He always treats you the same whether you are a competitive racer or first time Track day rider. If Dave is at your track take the time to work with him. Have a notebook at the ready. Thanks Dave! Ian #135
this guy knows how its done. Skillzzz
Amazing knowledge and way of explaining. Doesn't matter how long one has been biking, we don't know it until it's been explained. Thank you
Thanks for tuning my suspension this weekend at thunder hill !
Master Teacher and serious technical expertise !!! and a humble Gentleman.
A Brit that's lived in the states a while. The accent can never be hidden. Great post though, cheers.
Ahhh I thought he was aussie 😅
Manchester definitely a fellow brit!
It is good that he made it clear the difference between being on the track ( predictable/controlled ) environment VS street ( unpredictable/no control ) environment.
Fantastic explanation... What a professional! Rock
Wow this man is such a professional. He knows how and why, is very much able to break it down in a very simple explanation, and does it with such calm and confidence, a little bit of humour, really nice guy.
I thought by reading "twist of the wrist" and "total control" i got a lot covered, but far from it. Brilliant tip on "brake, gas, turn", it really really smooths out the in corner focussing on cracking open the throttle and getting through the drive chain slack. Maybe for experienced riders no issue, but as a normal rider trying to learn and build cornering confidence it was really a much needed stepping stone.
And yeah these guys are good drivers, but there's a lot going for finding the right teacher who reads your weaknesses on track by the evidence left on your tires and suspension. Very intelligent man. Subscribed..!👍
Thank you for subscribing. Having information and seeing what resonates with you throughout life can enhance learning. I hope you enjoy the content we have produced here!
That’s crazy! He straight up told him yea you didn’t come out of 3rd gear. 🤔 he’s the master.
for a sighting lap for a novice at a trackday im sure speeds are always slow.
What a joy to meet someone like Dave on a track day.
Love how he know what he’s talking about, wish I met him when I was young and thought I could ride
Met him first time at thunderhill, and I can not stress how much better he made my bike for the track!
Always great to see a new track convert
I like the attitude of the rider for the learning curve.
This man is a fountain of info wow clear concise and bestows confidence, amazing craftsman
@DaveMossTuning your a legend. From Queensland, Australia.
His videos are very informative and easy to understand. I'v been riding since a young age. Have learned some new stuff. Great job.
Found this channel today And I thoroughly enjoy watching Dave school these track day guys in a good way!
I don't own a bike but this guy is good.
4:53 "if bike wobble you are to slow"...this is so much true...i am beginner and in many situation in corner my bike wobble...now, when i have more experience and speed in corner no more wobble. higher speed, more bike is stable....great video.
Indeed your bike willl wobble due lack of speed I learned it when I made my mistakes. I have never heard about this guy before maybe bc I am not from US, but this is not supposed to be an excuse nowadays. I will check more videos from him. he has valuable information.
Yeah, the Sherlock Holmes of biking, I'm amazed that so much can be read from tyre wear.
Hey Dave, good to see you’re still helping people. I just picked up a R1 so maybe you’ll see me at the track someday again.
Dave thanks for the information shared, really am amazed with those pointers. I have never been on a track but one day will soon. :) God Bless.
You guys be sure and check Dave’s track schedule and meet up with him.
He’ll set up your street bike as well as give you pointers. Just a super easy guy to learn from and has a real passion to see you succeed.
Thank you Dave!
Imagine going to a mechanic and then he goes: "...the bike is fixed, now it's time to work on your head"
man this dude is super awesome, i come by all kinds of setup tutors on the internet here and there but this one I can easily relate....so simple, such a natural teacher. Keep it up sir.
I love to meet you in person sir...what you give to him, exactly what im really need to improve my riding skill..done subscribe
Don't even ask me how many times I'm going to watch this video lol at least until I can repeat it verbatim.
It's so amazing how life changes when you follow instructions....what a concept! haha Thanks Mister!
6:28 that giant 😂 what kinda bike he ride😅
Best money I ever spent on track day was with Dave Moss
Very interesting concept. Just to be clear, when you are saying gas are you referring to maintenance throttle or actual acceleration? Either way, this seems at odds from what I have generally read about in other books and heard from coaches. Isn't it preferential to trail break in (may be very little or may be a lot depending on the type of corner) in order to load the front to facilitate more grip and tighten geometry, which makes flicking the bike over easier and more confident?
Is this just for the sake of an exercise or a technique to actually go faster? I realize of course that getting on the gas as early as possible equates with going faster, but doesn't this seem a little too early (and also braking too early)? Adding gas before turning is unloading the front tire and having undesirable affects on the geometry of the bike or so I thought?
Am I understanding you correctly Dave? Sorry for the long comment! Just hoping to fully understand. Thanks in advance!
Thanks for the comment. "At odds" would suggest there is only one way to do something. If you have an exit corner that is uphill, wouldn't being on the gas earlier (throttle roll on or maintenance/neutral throttle) be better for the front tire verses braking and loading it up on an uphill?
MotoBoy. Yes, it is too early for the gas.
Ain't any more man with much more knowledge than dm 💯 top bloke
I have admired Dave and the entire team for quite some time. I've gotta ask, does the team ever make it to the east coast? I'm specifically curious to know if you ever have or ever will visit New Jersey Motorsports Park? Thanks for the vids and all the knowledge!
We have been trying and Scott at Moto-D has been asking for the opportunity of a DMT class or two at NJMP but so far the answer is no. That being said, there's nothing stopping a class or seminars being held in NY etc. We just need a venue and that does not need to be a dealership.
I would kill to have DMT at NJMP!
@@apriliarider6072 Aprilia, huh? '17 RF here despite the tag name! U in Jersey?
@@Mgixxer-vi7gr WOW another actual real live Ape! I'm from NYC but NJMP is the track I go to. I have a place in Sea Isle City and use that as my jump point for track days. 17RR :) We are a rather rare breed in this neck of the woods my friend. It's really too bad about Dave not being able to get there but my guess is that the track's tight relationship with Markbilt would be a conflict. Ride safe !
@@apriliarider6072 Yeah, not many on the road around these parts. I'm in central Jersey btw and yes, I agree that it might be a conflict. I'd still like for Dave to make it out here sometime though! Been on both of NJMP tracks a few times but not yet with the V4. Hopefully soon I'll make it down there. Def gonna be there for MotoAmerica in Sept. Hit me up at my tag name @outlook if ur ever down this way. Maybe we could link up sometime! Be safe!
Your advise is awesome... plain, simple, to the point, and in layman’s terms...
Much appreciate
The title is a little misleading driving to the corner. Sure a neutral throttle after braking but most people trail brake to a greater or lesser degree (not anywhere near to the apex). Many former racers (including Simon Crafar / Neil Hodgson) say "you're turning while OFF the throttle then accelerate gently AFTER the apex. Tomato Tomayto I suppose.
Remember that riders like Crafar, Hodgson etc ride at a very different level and point and shoot the bike. I use trail braking to make a pass or going into a decreasing radius corner so for track riders the goal is to sustain momentum and brake/gas/turn helps compress the suspension which in turns increases the size of the contact patch giving more grip. If you separate out the goals/style - this mantra creates more stability.
Dave Moss Tuning : that sounds clear to me...
Dave, aren't you implying increased grip thru the use of both tires, getting on the throttle early takes the weight bias off the front end and lets you balance the bike and use both tires and that's where the increased contact patch is, using both tires? Everyone seems to be stuck on this idea of 'you have to increase front tire contact patch thru trail braking', otherwise the bike won't turn. There's a hundred videos and many superbike schools that teach this. Personally I think It is improper counseling.
@@raynic1173 Correct with neutral throttle, the load is shared by the forks and shock so grip increases in both tires. Aggressive acceleration take grip away from the front.
@@catalystreactionsbw Thanks for the reply Dave. I'll certainly have a conscious go on the track to see how it feels. Who knows I may unconsciously do it now I've fitted throttle spacers to take up the free play in the throttle.
This guy is Motorcycle GOD! I will SIMP for him I swear!
9:27 "Wheelies?" lol
This guy is talking in my language! Very helpful, Not been on track yet but planning to :)
that 959 is such a beauty, I would be genuinely afraid to ride it on track. :D
Exactly what I was thinking. And no track plastics. The guy has balls.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. You may find these of interest.
davemosstuning.com/2-clicks-out-panigale-959-suspension-settings/
davemosstuning.com/2-clicks-out-mr-ms-panigale-959/
First time I know about adjusting the bike for a track. I have never been on a track but, eventually I will. Thank you very much
Why not trail braking?
can be used no harm in it. don't loose momentum than required...
Trail braking is a speed correction if you got the entry speed slightly wrong or if you are making a pass. It has a place, purpose and time as does brakes/gas/turn.
@@suipful spot on! :)
Dave Moss Tuning I think he’s talking about trail braking in another sense. I’ve recently began practicing this myself, taught by my instructor who’s an active racer as well.
The idea is that by just braking a tad (one finger slightly touching the brake) at the end of the braking period, approaching your turning point - you’re keeping the forks slightly compressed giving you a steeper angle and hence it’s easier to turn.
If you give gas before your turning point the forks will extend and the opposite will occur.
@@JoacimBoive Correct, and if you go to neutral throttle the bike sits flat evenly loading forks, shock and tires hence throttle roll on being calculated based on entry cornet, exit corner, decreasing radius etc.
He makes his point then moves on. I respond well to this type of teaching. Thx for posting !
thats completly against everything the pros say. Its break break less turn in,release break smoothly until the apex of the corner and instant throttle again. everything else is bullshit and wont make you faster
Riders at the track are not Pro's, they are learning new skills so having more control more of the time gives greater initial confidence for skill refinement in time.
@@catalystreactionsbw you need to learn the correct way and for that they need to understand the science behind that. otherwise they will never improve and your suggestion to these people puts them in danger as the bike isnt as stable as it could be ;)
Interesting. There is only one correct way? Who is that for? The chassis and suspension are not stable with neutral throttle?
@@Sporadic_r1 Dave Williams, editor, replying here. The most interesting aspect of your comment is your condemnation without ever having tried the technique. Coasting is the moment when the bike is the most unstable. The object here is to eliminate coasting first (there is a hierarchy to this). A crucial byproduct of that exercise is an appreciation for how much mid corner speed a rider can sustain. Most riders who begin trail braking too early in their riding career develop problems with mid corner speed (if you spend half a day doing this, your apex speed will increase 30% minimum when you go back to trail braking). Once a rider has eliminated coasting effectively with brake-gas-turn they can carry that skill into the next phase, trail braking. Now that the rider understands corner speed and has broken the coasting habit they can focus on the complexities of trail braking. Both riders in this video went faster using brake-gas-turn. Obviously they must layer on more techniques to win MotoGP races. But every MotoGP racer uses brake-gas-turn in the second half of a chicane. For perspective, Yamaha Champions Riding School teaches trail braking immediately while California Superbike School forbids it in their Level 1 class.
@@catalystreactionsbw this explanation is ok, if you want to improve mid corner speed. but you should change the title then to: How to increase mid corner speed:...
And yes the way i told is the correct way, if it wouldnt be, why would the fast guys do it then? You can see them do it in the MotoGP and in the Superbike Championship. Why would a pro rider teaching me lie? Here in germany you can get very lucky and meet pros on the racetrack who give you advices for free and all of them tell the same, even your american guys like marcel irnie/ josh herrin mention my technique during their videos / at least do it themselves.
I think people should learn the correct way to begin with, because if you dont, you need to change your riding habits all of a sudden to improve which can cause miscomfort for most people and even make them slower, which then leads to them getiin frustrated and not learning the correct way.
The reason why you should trail brake is known right? More contact patch on the front wheel, leads to more grip therefore more safety, if you then hit the throttle again on the apex the weight is back on the rear wheel where you have more contact patch too, so its safer. The risk I see in your advice is, that you dont have as much contac patch on the front, as you dont have as much force on it, so its easier to lowside. People tend to increase their speed mid corner while increasing lean angle, which can lead to a low side too.
100% in line with many other professional trainers and literature on the market today - great video!
"Brake. GAS. ..and then Turn." is pretty bad advice, on the whole. I would definitely encourage anyone new to the sport to read more widely before trying to adopt that method - it wouldn't be hard to get yourself hurt. Honestly, you can probably learn more about good technique by watching - and listening to - this video of Scott Redding riding a Motogp bike (search "brake-cam with scott redding"); all without him saying a single word about what you "should" be doing. How often does he finish his braking, and actually open the gas BEFORE turning in? Virtually never. He continues his braking into most corners, and more often than not, his engine's revs continue to decrease as he does so.
Like a golf swing, proper technique doesn't suddenly get turned on its head because "the pros" are involved. Proper technique is proper technique. Tiger Woods, and Scott Redding, are just much, MUCH better at it than you and I. If someone on the internet tells you to hold your club backwards and swing it between your legs, by all means don't let me stop you. But the consequences of getting too "experimental" while riding a motorcycle fast are a bit more serious.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. Unfortunately, like the others who've made similar comments, none has commented from a position of experience, not even Daytona 200 winner Kyle Wyman. He too just popped off. Dave Moss has won many races and many championships riding exactly as he suggests. Try the technique first and then tell us all about it.
@@catalystreactionsbw You're making assumptions. I have tried the technique. My introduction many years ago to riding at the track was the California Superbike School. (I eventually attended about 10 or so times.) It took landing on my ear - on two separate occasions - right after releasing the brakes and turning in, for me to figure out that I was doing something wrong. And I do mean "wrong", as opposed to good technique executed poorly. (Though, I'm certainly capable of doing that, too.) A racing friend helped me mend my ways.
I imagine Kyle "popped off", as you say, because - and I really don't mean this to sound like trolling - but you're being a little bit like talking to a wall. When you find yourself telling someone who rides at his level that he doesn't know what he's doing on the bike as well as you do, observing him from a fence, well...
@@YouPotato70 Williams replying again. No, I never said Kyle Wyman doesn't know what he's doing. Of course he does. The point he made (to prove the whole idea ridiculous) was that having positive throttle when you turn in will put the bike on the ground, which you say you did. But you couldn't have if you used the CA Superbike School technique. You wouldn't have had positive throttle because they have you do it off throttle. Regardless, you've seen how fast CA Superbike School instructors put the bike at lean (off throttle)... one handed, pick up the gas and drive the bike through corners. I had one of them tow me around at, then, Miller Motorsports Park in Utah a few seconds off Supersport grid pace (about 110% vs 107%). They do it every day all day, day after day after day. Given this, likely something else was going on the 2 times you fell. I've got 3 clips of MotoGP riders this year alone trail braking to the Apex, picking up the gas, and loosing the front. Does not mean trail braking to the apex is wrong. Kyle was emphatic if you tip in on the gas you'll crash. But he does it EVERY time in the second half of a chicane. He and every other pro rider trail brakes to the apex of the first corner, cracks the throttle instantly upon releasing the brake, THEN HOLDS THAT POSITIVE THROTTLE up and over to the opposite lean of the second corner and through the apex. So you can have positive throttle before tipping in. Onboard footage from MotoGP shows they all do the exact same thing. If a pro brakes or shuts the throttle between the 2 corners of a chicane, it's not a chicane.
Though most of the chapters were already covered i loved that you had made it even more easier to understand.. I am getting better in setting up suspension .
Mr. Williams awesome edit now i am able to keep up with the info, just crisp to the point.
the tyre gradation is still something i am not able to pick up from video (it could be me ;))
I interpret it as using the gas (throttle) early on the turn ... = Break - Gas (throttle) - Turn
1:19 lmaooo every chick does the same test on her man :P
But remember, you must see him after every session.
@@illhaveanother4365 Dw I'm sure ur mom can help with your tiny little prick
@@adaptiveagile lol of course XD
If you have the privilege to bump into Dave moss and he helps set up your bike you'll learn more in 1 track day then doing it solo for years The dude listened really well.
Thanks for the kind words. Listening is what I try to do well to be able to communicate effectively.
"Brake-gas-turn." That is very bad and dangerous advice for a beginner. And eventually it will lead to low- or hi-sider when beginner wants to go faster and tries to go faster by twisting more throttle. Yes, advice is not meaning that, but beginner does not understand that. Beginner thinks "brake-gas-turn" + more gas = faster, and then in reality crashes in a slow corner.
Another very bad downside is that beginner concentrates to throttle control throughout the corner, and that makes everything very very very difficult for him, because he is using all of hes capacity to totally wrong thing.
If you are a beginner, brake smoothly, then do not turn in too early, concentrate to driving line between braking and apex. That will make everything very easy for you. Use your capacity to driving line between brake and apex. Driving line between brake and apex is the priority number one, and the key to track riding. Forget hard braking, forget throttle control before apex, concentrate to driving line.
After apex, do not touch throttle, if you can not pick up the bike/ you still have to turn more. Your apex was too early, if the bike is still turning after apex. Do not apply throttle when you are still in max lean angle. It does not matter if your max lean angle is only 35 degrees, you will still low- or hi-side if you apply enough throttle.
After apex, if you can not pick up the bike, you did turn in too early and that is why your apex is too early, and that is why you can not pick up the bike, because the bike is still turning. Turn in later, that will fix the driving line between brake and apex, and that will fix the issue. Concentrate on that.
After apex, if you can start picking up the bike, then you can also start to apply throttle, and then you can concentrate on throttle control (after apex).
So, always fix the driving line first, then you can concentrate to other issues.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. You should attend the California Superbike School. You will find it very enlightening. While not identical to what Moss is saying here, they do share the principle of positive throttle (not acceleration) throughout the corner (no coasting).
@@catalystreactionsbw Yes, it is very sad that they teach that for beginners. Very sad. Maybe they will enlighten some day and update some of their principles.
@@deadslow201 Williams replying again. Take the school and then you'll have the experience necessary to determine whether it is "very sad" and needs an "update." California Superbike School has many pro champions to its credit, Leon Camier among them.
@@catalystreactionsbw Are you trying to impress people by throwing some pro champions name around? Sorry, but it does not work that way when the topic was:
"Brake-gas-turn." That is very bad and dangerous advice for a beginner.
So we are talking about beginners, not pro champions. For beginners priority is to make everything as simple as possible, do not multitask. So do not mix throttle and turn, simple as that. That is why "brake-turn-throttle" works better for a beginner. Separate easy tasks.
And that is why there is this exercise "brakeless driving" for beginners, that simplifies the riding even more and takes the brake out of the "brake-turn-throttle".
@@deadslow201 not at all - interesting that you would take that spin given this is information for people to test and see if it works for them so they can increase their skills. That being said I recognize that exact line of speech from Avatar.
I met Dave at a track day a few years ago, and he told me his story that if you’re in control while riding, you can sing a song to yourself and not lose words or tempo when cornering!
Quite the opposite of feeling you’re amped on steroids when going fast.
gonna lose the front if new rider adds too much gas to the apex
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. You might find the California Superbike School level one course very enlightening. While not identical to what Moss is teaching here, they have the principle of positive maintenance throttle throughout the corner in common.
If I had a Trimble's worth of his knowledge, I'd be sooooo much better off. Well done, Dave!👍
Please do not listen do this idiotic idea of how to turn. After breaking, having the front end stay loaded is what gives you grip and turning capability, geometry wise.
Dave Williams, editor, replying here. Please do not spout idiotic commentary before trying the technique yourself. You've no idea how much the front end is loaded at neutral throttle because you've obviously never done it.
I don't feel it's idiotic just kinda old school. Nowadays most all the top riders trail brake in to apex and switch to gas gently rolling on. Some use a combination of gas/brake on corner entry to keep things loaded up.
@@cowasockee I test and test and test, so when talking about topics I have tried them myself. Physics keep the front loaded on corner entry if you have neutral throttle AND if you are trail braking. That's the point:- there are multiple ways to do something.
This is a good advice for new track riders who come from street riding. This is not an advanced track rider or racing advice, once you pick up confidence and pace you will trail brake into the corner.
Great humble friendly coaching by Dave.
I wish we have this kind of expert here in the philippines. Someone who really cares about other riders.
May I inquire how many riders you have on 500-1000cc bikes in the Philippines? Where are most of them concetrated? Would you think enough people would attend a DMT class?
This is one of the best tutorials on UA-cam hands down!!!!
Cheers
Subscribed big time!😁
@Dave - Excellent advice. Cracking the throttle in the middle of corner unloads the front suspension, increasing the chance of a low side, or even a high side if throttle management is poor. I recently tried to tell that to a huge youtuber who teaches motorcycle racing classes. Obviously the top riders in the world are often trail braking deep and cracking the throttle in the middle of the corner, but I don't think that's good for your average track day or beginner racer!
Not looking to argue with you, but throttle application at the middle of the turn, will not cause a low side. It is done a thousand times a day without lowsiding. What causes lowsiding 99% of the time is to much effort on the front tire do to trail braking and cornering forces stacking up, or just plan to much speed, aka cornering force, doing 50 in 30 mph corner. After the apex, with the bike leaned over you could wheelie out of the corner if you wanted too, and if the rear would stay in line, at that point you really don't need the front tire. The front tire pulls you in to the apex. Beside if you agree with what Dave is teaching here, then the bike is at a neutral position, 50-50 weght distrbution or close to that, at best from the turn entry to the apex, as he suggested 'drive thru' the corner. the bike doesn't have a front end weight bias as so many teach is necessary and as you suggest causes a lowside (just making conversation).
@@raynic1173 Yup, bike is approximately neutral or there abouts using Keith Codes approach. No disagreement here. Argued this so many times, just don't care to anymore. I like what Dave is teaching here, good for most riders until they get to expert level, then things can begin to change
Getis - you are on to something. Why would we teach techniques that we are unable to add speed to? Techniques that we need to unlearn as quickly as we've tried them? Chances are, when we are taught something that doesn't seem right, it's probably not... the top riders in the world ride bikes the way they are designed to be ridden - using the brakes to control speed on corner entry. Riding any other way, no matter how new the rider is, will be a massive limiter and will not allow for adjustability and repeatability.
A true Master, this man knows his job even if he were getting a pic of teh tires