Can you correctly say these 3 Japanese words? (Actual Japanese lesson) / 日本語の発音レッスン
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- Опубліковано 22 бер 2022
- Japanese pitch-accent and pronunciation course!
/ dogen
Free resources for looking up the pitch-accent of Japanese words:
• Japanese Phonetics #7:...
Bibliography:
/ 17345632
Dogen / Dōgen /Japanese / Can you correctly say these 3 Japanese words? (Actual Japanese lesson) / Japanese pronunciation / Japanese lesson / Japanese pitch-accent / Japanese accent / 選ぶ / 運ぶ / 日本語 / 日本語の高低アクセント / 日本語の発音レッスン - Комедії
I like how Dogen-san has to put "Actual Japanese lesson", as if all of his videos weren't already actual Japanese lessons.
I mean, are they?
Oh I see. It just ended, wondering where the punchline was.
@@DucksAreEpic honestly yes and no to a fair few of them, even in humor it helps me remember certain things better to hear them used.
@@bmac4 Yeah, I'm not remotely good enough to confirm or falsify this, but I have the assumption that this sort of playful poking at assumptions and bad habits is actually the perfect way (next to regular vocab study) for teaching advanced language, especially like C1-C2 and above.
@@TheHadMatters What you're talking about are mnemonics, which are learning aids for memorizing information. Wordplay, acronyms, and songs are all examples of mnemonics to help you learn things.
Just as an example, I can remember the words "vita" and "somnus" are references to "life" and "sleep" because a Latin teacher taught me the words to "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" in Latin.
thank you, this was very cool to listen to and hear the differences
緑色い猫の英語上手
I agree, i end up spending most of my time on everything other than pitch accent lol
Girldm watches Dogen? A surprise to be sure, but an welcome one
Yooooooo
Glad to see familiar people in this lesson comment section!
"Choose banana. Eat computer." -Dogen 2022
Before watching this, I though I had a reasonably good grasp on pitch accent just naturally. Additionally, I thought it was a bit strange how many Japanese people struggled with certain sounds in English despite years of practice. But now... well... I think I can understand where they are coming from. I could hardly hear a difference between many of these and replicating that difference took a lot of concentration.
I feel a bit humbled but also motivated at the same time. Great work as always Dogen!
Same here lol
I can hear the difference just fine when the words are in isolation and contrasted. If I just hear the word and have to pick out the accent pattern, I can still usually do it correctly, but there will be a bunch of mistakes still.
If I have to recognize the pattern of a word in a sentence, though... oof. Especially if I'm not actively listening for it, it is unlikely I'd pick up on it.
I've pronounced 塩 incorrectly for a long time... until I watched a Japanese Let's Play of Subnautica where the player screamed 塩！Because it was said so emphatically, the accent pattern was very apparent and I realised I got it wrong the whole time. It's really quite hard to get the accents right and I already have the advantage of speaking two languages. (And two sets of common accent patterns) Though admittedly, they are closely related - English and German.
It's very good to be humble, but I think it's also a good idea to start feelin' yourself and praising your own improvement when you can.
On a related note, I'm only making this comment because I immediately recognized 塩 in the comment above mine and I felt really good about it lol. Progress never feels like it's where I want it to be, but stuff like that is a large motivator for me. Helps to know I'm at least making _some_ progress.
@@Yotanido SO... who played that Subnautica let's play? and what ep? thanks
日本語上手ですね
言ったな
😭😄
One of the major offenders of this that I hear is actually with native English speakers when they pronounce Japanese names. They always emphasize the middle syllable(s). taNAka, NaTSUko.
That's a good point, now that you mention I hear that a lot, and tbh am probably guilty of.
The English accent is probably one of the worst for Japanese. It doesn't have 5 extreme vowels like many romance languages, and it tends to turn unaccented vowels into schwas. The time interval between accented syllables is also more or less the same, which means a varying number of unaccented ones get sandwiched in between. It's that combo of features that all go opposite to what Japanese does and together make Japanese with a heavy English accent really hard to understand compared to other foreign accents.
The jozu-est of 'em all: "wuhTAAshuh n'NAAmay woah JOHN SMITH DAYSSuh"
Persona 5 Royal is SO guilty of this it’s like the voice director forced every single official pronunciation to accent the second syllable and it’s so weird
@@HyperLuigi37 Well what reason would anybody have to play Persona in english in the first place?
@@tripple-a6031 I thought it was a good dub other than that tbh
Playing a Japan-set game dub means accepting that silly things like “YOU SPEAK JAPANESE??” >is speaking English, will happen
i still really enjoyed the dub, just the stresses on the second syllable every time sounded so bad
"This is something English speakers struggle with" This small clarification made a world of difference, Was half way through the video beating myself up like "WHY CAN I NOT DO THIS!?!?!"
I hate it there where i can understand and hear the difference but my brain just goes like " yup, not me, i like monotone style ", being French ain't always good for Japanese lmao (Really grateful for all of these videos, it helps so much to clearly compare my pitch and correct it right away !)
At least it’s easier for us to say banana and computer accentless for us 8).
I'm Finnish and can very much relate to this even though Finnish is not as monotone as French.
French isn't accentless, though. Its emphasis is on the last syllable
@@emppp meh, it depends on where you're from and your intent, but on a practical aspect, emphasizing parts of words does nothing to their meaning.
For jokes, or conveying things like sarcasm, maybe, and even then it will depend on your regional accent (sometimes) and context.
@@aymerika97 Sure, but it's not particularly common for emphasis to affect meaning in English or Japanese, either. There are some words that sound the same but have different stressed syllables / pitch accent, but those are the exceptions. Most of the time, it's not the meaning, just the pronunciation.
Of course, the difference is that in French it's ALWAYS the last syllable, not varied, but it is still always on the last syllable. It would be weird to emphasize another syllable or to not emphasize it.
And in any case, the point remains that isn't emphasis-less as claimed
I only know Dogen speaking Japanese so when he doesn't, my brain is always surprised about how well he speaks English, even though I know it's his native language.
Edit: clarified that I know he's a native speaker
He is American
I think it is paramount to eigo jouzu Dogen whenever possible.
Ha ha, we've got to the point where Dogen has to mark his videos with 'Actual Japanese lesson' tags so we know it's not gonna be a skit again
I figured out the “ぶ rule” a couple months back, or at least decided I’d assume they all didn’t have an accent until I I looked it up and found it to be an exception. Somewhere in the back of my mind I was still doubting and wondered if in reality it was actually 50/50, glad to see I wasn’t crazy!
tensaidesune!
Man your English is very good, nice accent and all, very rare for a Japanese person to have such a clear accent.
Man I was actually talking with some of the grad students from Japan about this and denunciated vowels a few days ago, I was doing an assignment that said it’s recommended for foreigners to pronounce Japanese words correctly in business settings (who would have thought!!!) and I told them how our teachers don’t teach us things like this haha. I’m going to show them this video when I see them tomorrow to ask their thoughts. Thank you for all the videos 🙏 お疲れ様でした！！！
3:10 Ohohohohohoho! 英語上手！！！ 👏👏👏
God damn, you're good. 10+ years of speaking Japanese and you're still teaching me important lessons.
Phonotactics that deal with the strict suprasegmentals like pitch and stress are often the most difficult and final things to learn in a new language, especially when the urge to apply unconscious rules from your own native language get into the mix, and it's often the most telltale sign that someone is NOT a native speaker, despite even having spoken the language for years at that point. On the other hand, if you can demonstrate a mastery of these seemingly small nuances of learning a new language, your perceived and actual fluency skyrockets dramatically with other native speakers.
It's also very annoying if you're a perfectionist, because when you can finally perfectly pronounce non-native phonemes and proudly put them together to form genuine words in the new language, only to be told by a native speaker that your pitch or stress accent is off, is frustrating to say the least.
IF you are told that. I'm nowhere near fluent in Japanese, so I don't have any personal experience, but from what I hear Japanese people are generally unlikely to correct your pronunciation, even if you ask for it.
I suspect that, if you were told you got the accent wrong every time you did, you'd fix it relatively quickly. The real problem is not even knowing you're doing it wrong.
@@Yotanido true and that's a cultural thing. "Nihongo jōzu" is very unhelpful even though it's the polite canned response almost every time you attempt to converse for practice. I politely correct non-native English speakers (and native speakers too, lol) if there is a grammar or pronunciation error. As long as you are earnest and don't come off as condescending, I've found I've gotten more gratitude from ESLs than anger and I always encourage corrections from native speakers when I attempt to converse in another language. It's the best way to learn.
日本人ですが・・・なるほど、こんなルールが！？と驚きそして、なるほど！と視聴させていただきました。私も英語学習者ですが、この観点から日本語と英語の違いを知ったのは初めてで勉強になりました
Ive learned that if you can get the pitch and accent for a language correct, people won't hear your mistakes as much. I learned Swedish as an adult and it helped me so much even just hearing the differences between pitches.
Examples might make it clearer for some people. Pitch, stress and tone are all different things at least in the context of linguistics.
Pitch accent languages: Japanese, Norwegian, Turkish, Swedish, Ancient Attic Greek
Stress based languages: English, German, Russian, Modern Greek
Tone accent languages: Mandarin, Vietnamese, Punjabi
Uhh... How will knowing what group various languages belong to make it clearer for some people?
Also, what do you mean "Tone accent"? The languages you mentioned are tonal languages, where each syllable gets its own independent tone. That's not really an "accent" since no syllable is being accentuated. (Besides, a language that uses tone to accentuate syllables is a pitch-accent language.)
Turkish is pretty flat tho.
nnoooppe, it isn't
@@betulkorkut5215 örnek verir misiniz?
@@joededimanadedi most Japanese people would describe Japanese as flat too, it's just coz the pitch changes sound normal to them.
Japanese pitch-accent and pronunciation course!
www.patreon.com/dogen
Free resources for looking up the pitch-accent of Japanese words:
ua-cam.com/video/zRSXbqjC2Yg/v-deo.html
When it says actual Japanese lesson and I doubt more.... 😅
This is actually really interesting. I am a native finnish speaker and I just learned that finnish has a fixed stress on the first syllable. English can be harder for me to pronounce correctly than japanese.
Wait im Finnish and I struggle with Hi low low accent 😶
I'm a huge language nerd, so I love stuff like this. It's not just about the words but about tone and inflection and sentence structure. Languages are truly fascinating!
Thanks, again. :)
運ぶと選ぶが平板だって知ってるのに気をつけないと中高型で言っちゃうんだよね
Dogen: "Talk to you guys again soon"
Also Dogen: 「さよなら」
アクセントなんて考えたこと無かったですけど母国語じゃない人からしたら「選ぶ」、「運ぶ」このアクセントの違いはめんどくさいだろうな、難しいだろうなって思いますね
違う視点で自分の言語を見ることが出来て面白かったです
nice. actual lesson. thanks dogen.
勉強になりました！👍🔥
This was amazingly helpful, what a great video!
Dogen 先生ありがとう
This is the first time I have actually heard of something like this. This was very helpful! Thank you!
Fasciniting and very informative. Thank you!
ありがとうございます、ドゲン先生！
All this time i was getting anxious waiting for the punchline. Why u do dis Dogen
Thank you for this useful video. いい勉強になりました。
I really like your "actual japanese lessons" haha.
thank u! u made it sound way easier like this, its so cool to start picking up on the differences
Good video, mate
this was fantastic, always top content
Wow this was really good, the tip about saying the English words flat worked like a charm! Thank you!!
いつも通り、道元先生は貴重なことを教えてくれました。感謝しております。
Really helpful video
Now thats what i call a proper crash course. Salute Dogen sensei.
This is great, thank you so much!
A friend linked me to one of your videos last week and I've been binge-watching them since then. I'm working on reviving my Japanese fluency, which has degraded severely from lack of practice, and I'm learning a lot from your videos - and laughing a lot, too! Thank you. :)
道元さんが初心者に向けた実際にレッスンをしていることに驚いてならないよ。
何てこのような詳細で抜群な説明ことか。其れも其のはず僕のような人々がPatreonを通じて道元さんを応援し続けなきゃはずだ。彼のようつべの内容って、とても啓発的で情報に込、見る甲斐があるとオレのオススメ思考んだ。
「道玄さんがこういった初心者に非常に役立つレッスンができることに驚きが隠せないよ。なんと詳細で適切な説明であることか。私のような人がPatreonを通じて応援するのも当然だ。彼のようつべの内容はとても啓発的で多くの情報が込められており、見る価値のある物だと私は考える。」
I am sorry if it was annoying. I just read your comment and tried to correct it. Some part of the paragraph were grammatically wrong so I speculated your thoughts and changed them. I hope it helps you to learn Japanese.
ps. I’m Japanese learning English, so my English sentence might be incorrect. Sorry about that.
Thank you for this video! I've been integrating pitch accent into my Japanese studies for around 3 months now, and while my ear for it has improved immensely, some verbs have been a sticking point for me.
Excellent
Holy smokes, this was magic! I couldn't hear the difference at all in the beginning, but the difference couldn't have been clearer to me by the end. Thank you so much!
i feel incredibly reassured i got it right, though ngl i never really noticed the difference until now. English is also my second language, through which i learn most of my japanese, so i can see how easy it is to trip over that :>
I've heard about pitch accent on so many occasions yet it's the first time it actually clicked. I had never heard the difference between pitch accent patterns before. When Dogen is not messing around he is a surprisingly good teacher. Who would've thought ?
Thank you
Thank you!!
That was a good pitch accent lesson
I hadn't paid attention to those accenteless words until now. They can easily go unnoticed, although I often am aware to the accent and picth... My mother tongue is Spanish. Great video!
Thanks for the video :)
I like this lesson. I'm very bad with accents in general so probably won't be able to apply it in the next ten lifetimes but it showed plenty of examples that I was actually able to notice that difference for once. Thanks!
i like eating computers too
You are a boss hog. Thanks for the lessons.
Wow thank you ❤️
ありがとう
I feel like this also happens in relation to other languages that you have learned outside your native tongue.
I have learned a bit of Finnish and have a fairly natural sounding accent, emphasis is always on the first syllable. Now when I speak Japanese my wife says it sounds like I'm speaking it in Finnish
Just have to say I greatly appreciate you giving the correct pronunciation immediately instead of purposely delaying it until, say, 5 minutes into the video and making people either search or wait for it. Even if it seems like a small thing, when an entire culture is driven by statistics and abusing an algorithm, a lot of small things add up, so it's nice to see a little integrity(although I shouldn't assume your reasons for doing it this way).
Hehehe as a native french speaker I chuckled when you said it was hard for native english speakers to notice the accent.
Thank you very much for the rule, as I thought every word had to be accentuated differently.
食べるならコンピューターじゃなくてバナナがいいでしょ
Lol
Thank You, Dogen Sensei this was really good
Good job:)
Thank you c:
Good video
こういう良く使う単語は、こども番組を観たりして学ぶのも良いと思います！
こどもの番組は以外と良く使う言語を教えてくれます😄
I have the opposite problem since watching your videos, I now default to low high high even for words that have low high low
なるほどなぁ。
たしかに英語は**tionとか**ntとかスペリングのパターンである程度はアクセントを予測できたりシステマチックですけど、
日本語はそういう部分カオスで滅茶苦茶ですね(笑)
自分に無かった観点なので、日本人で日本語母語ですが、勉強になりました。
I believe this type of stimulation is necessary for most EN to JP learners. I really enjoyed the video. Thank you so much for the upload ^^
In my experience, it is extremely common to hear JP learners have accents that sound "off", but are grammatically sound. When confronted with this it's very common for JP natives to say that their イントネーション is off, but they understand (you will just be branded as a foreigner Sadge). I believe that it's because the JP learner's pattern thinks that it can do the same thing it did for EN and apply it to JP, causing them to sort of "auto-pilot" their speaking.
I remember this from your video with Matt vs Japan!
Currently a patreon member, curious if you'll add how to actually get a really good sounding accent,- as in, my pitch accent is not bad and neither is my speaking accent but to get a more in depth understanding of jaw/tongue placement etc. would be cool.
先生、教えてくれてありがとうございます。
I've never said banana and computer this much in my whole life lol. Thanks for the lesson~
勉強になりました～
Great
Dogenさんはモーリー・ロバートソンさんと恩師以外で出会った初めての完璧な日本語を話す人です
英語で日本人が気づかない特徴をしっかり説明されているのをとても嬉しく思いますし勉強になります
みつきさんはアナウンサーかなにかを目指していらっしゃるのでしょうか？
You definitely start to hear the differences more clearly after this.
I'm Finnish. Finnish language has a monotone intonation. Most of the time I have no idea what you are talking about, because I just cannot hear it :D And I'm musically trained!! xD
No stressed syllables at all?
I’ve just been pronouncing all of these words 平板 except 食べる. I really need to do this pitch accent course. The couple rules I learned from these videos plus a lot of listening has taken me pretty far, but there are still a lot of cases where I get the pitch pattern wrong.
super interesting, thank you for this! does this have regional (or other eg social class etc) variability, either in terms of a pattern difference or a way of toning the same pattern? (or something else?)
Very useful instruction, Kevin. Thanks!
Kevin??!
日本語学習者からすると、普段何気なしに使ってた日本語がこんなに複雑だったんだ！とか、違った視点から日本語を見られて面白く感じました！
てか、日本語難っ
thank you. のぶのぶ
dogen i love you
As somebody who natively speaks a language with no word accent, the struggle of carrying one over to a learned language is rather amusing to witness.
Generally English, being a Germanic language, actually throws stress onto the initial. Stress finds itself on the second syllable under certain circumstances usually in words with a preposition (cf. forGET, beTWEEN, underSTAND, etc. Latinate loanwords and morphemes also follow this principle because English speakers understand the morphological context (cf comPUter, transMIT, preSCRIBE). For other, non-IE loanwords like banana, I am unsure, but possibly follows the same accent pattern as the original language or some misunderstood derivation in English.
I think what makes this extra difficult is that I don't think 平板 is actually flat when there's three morae. There is clearly (to me) a dip in pitch on the third mora of あそぶ but it isn't as pronounced as it is with えらぶ. It gets analyzed as "high" but I think if you're not aware of that fact you might pick up on the lower pitch and assume it's supposed to be a low pitch.
Yes, as Dogen teaches in his Patreon, the accentless pattern follows the natural “declination” or slope of sentence pitch found in every language. The accented pattern can drop as much as a major fifth, so-do. That’s four white keys down on the piano, re-so-so-do. But the accentless pattern is a sight drop, like do-fa-fa-mi. That half-step drop fa-mi is like the black key right below a white key. It reminds me of the police siren in a London chase scene.
I'm not a native English speaker and I actually find the low-high-low accent to be the most challenging, it has been my biggest challenge for a while, the rest of the patterns are fine.
I think it goes beyond saying that despite knowing English, I gave up on idea of sounding like a native a long ago 🤣 I rather aspire to sound natural in Japanese, it's easier for me.
Great video. Thanks for publishing this. Do the pitch-accent patterns change regionally? For example, would someone with a Hakata accent use a different pitch-accent for some words? Different from someone who speaks with a Tokyo accent/dialect (sorry if I'm misusing these terms).
The accent in the Kansai Region (Kobe, Osaka, Nagoya) is usually reversed to and follows completely different rules than the Tokyo accent
This is difficult for people because the f'n pitch accent isn't in most dictionaries (while the stresses in English are easily seen in dictionaries).
i never watched any of your serious videos before, who is this nice non-nihilistic dogen.....
Spanish is my native language and I often make the same mistake that English speakers do in the pitch accent
I laughed when I realised practicing saying banana "without an accent" like Dogen was actually making me put on an accent to do so
'Banana' and 'computer' in heiban reminds me a bit of Malaysian English (Manglish).
Is it bad that I was waiting for a punchline the entire video???
Also, this was was an excellent lesson. Thank you!
As a Spanish native speaker, I quickly understood how the pitch accents work. Since some Spanish words have accents that differ from English accents, I would easily tell and learn where I should put the accent in a Japanese word. Thanks Dogen
Yep. Lo que pasa es que en ingles no usan acentos o silaba tonica en las palabras. O por lo menos no lo usan ampliamente y por eso batallan tanto para entender la diferencia. Spanish ftw.
i really could only hear the difference after you said the english words in monotone. it scary how subtle it is without knowing it.
I feel bad for people who haven't found this community. We have something that the normie japaese studying foreigners don't have:
上手さ。
Jouzu you too, brother.