The bit about training your ears reminds me of something my wife has said about her training in visual art, martial arts, &c.: A lot of it is the ability to simply see what is actually there rather than letting you brain fill in what it expects, as this is a prerequisite to reproducing it.
I had been living in Osaka for almost 2 years now and have always pronounced those accentless patterns the incorrect way. Is there a video on this specific pattern that you can point me to on youtube or your patreon?
@@AwesomeWholesome Hi HIkky! I actually think it would be better to go through my series from the beginning, rather than jumping ahead to any specific video, as that might result in even more confusion. Here's a link again for your convenience! www.patreon.com/dogen I'd also like to note, however, that you may actually be saying those words correctly if you're speaking in Osaka dialect, as pitch-accent in Kansai is different than that of standard Japanese. If you think you were saying them wrong before you went to Osaka, however, then it's probably a result of untrained ears, rather than the result of living in Osaka. Hope this helps!
Learning Japanese seems to be this weird process where, every time you finish one of your long goals in the language you feel compelled to go back and learn everything from the beginning, with a focus on a different aspect. Pitch accent is definitely going to be one of those things too.
So true! Pitch-accent and pronunciation in particular I believe should be studied early on as doing so is certainly the best way to avoid developing bad speaking habits. Always easier to create a good habit than it is to get rid of a bad habit and replace it with a good one. Cheers!
I haven’t moved from N5 in 2 years cause I keep going back to the beginning. Now I’m trying to move on despite my urge to learn Japanese with “a better book, app, method”
@Nullatrum・ノラ虎 probably no one else will tell you this, i will. to learn japanese you have to be a japanese and to be a japanese you have to have a japanese subconscious which is formed over centuries. best way is to be born into a japanese family and be raised there. but you can also join later though now you make conscious efforts to learn. unless you be a japanese you will always be an outsider and never be able to speak the language, more than like a linguist. that's why it's difficult. first of all japan's condition is so rare, so almost no one in the rest of the world can match. so don't be upset, if you really want to, start from zero and build yourself and then you will be able to make rapport. if you don't have intentions to aim for that level, stop this waste. this is the reality.
@@ValeRubioo Best way to get up to N1 (at least it was for me) is to study at Kumon. I also learned the correct pitch accent from the very beginning there as well ☺️.
@@深夜-l9fik answering more than a year later is maybe pointless but just wanted to point out one important aspect that you missed. Since English is not my first language I could confidently tell you: it is no different. With ur native language you develop the basic ruleset of speaking that becomes the default mode. And these habits are nearly impossible to fully get rid of when trying to use another language (especially pronunciation). Why bother tho? The problem is within society more than inside every learner's brain so to speak. English is so commonly used for international communication that people are used to all the weirdness produced by, ehm... so-called "foreigners". That's why you won't be laughed at just because of your pronunciation or insta-jouzu'd (the bad way) after asking for a direction in a slightly off manner. On the other hand Japanese is so hard to learn that for japanese people you encounter you could be the first non-native they meet. That could be why they don't know how to react/IF they need to react. Or a cultural cliche? Anyways, the thing you were right about is that you simply *have to* learn to live with being a witness of such an attitude daily or never try learning a "not-so-international" language I guess.
My teacher once laughed so hard at me for my pronounciation of the word for Curry and He. It was so awk and he in that situation did not make clear what my mistake was. I then began to look for pronounciation and found you. It was a relief to finally have found the solution but then i began to fear my own pronounciation with every sentence. A big THANKS to you for everything that you do because you do it in such a lovely, friendly, fun and positive way it is so good to listen and watch.
My pleasure Ravendorify! I've been in many similar circumstances before-can vividly remember getting laughed at for using the wrong pitch-accent for rain (said candy instead)-and I try to make my series feel positive and friendly specifically because of said experiences. There's no shame in making a mistake, only in making fun of people who unknowingly make them. Best of luck with your future Japanese studies!
You're amazing! Actually, even though I am a Japanese, I didn't know the rule at all. And I realized how difficult Japanese' accent and pronounce , so people who study Japanese are excellent. I respect you guys.
Yes, there are many linguistic features that native people would just learn naturally through mimicry rather than being aware that it’s a specific rule.
As I am just starting Japanese classes in one week, and have been focusing on getting the accents of words correct, I really like this video pointing out *what* to listen to, providing examples of how it sounds as well. I feel more confident going into this, and more prepared. I am also prepared to take my leftover tuition money to sign up for your Patreon to further my learning and ensure I am getting the most of my learning. Thank you Dogen.
Thank you very much for the kind words and support, Top. If you found this video useful, I'm sure you'll find the Patreon series to be worth it as well. Thanks again, and best of luck with your future studies!
You are more proficient in teaching the pitch accent than my teachers for 3 years of bachelor in Japanese studies I swear - I only had 3hours of speaking and listening per week, and 20 hours of writing and history of Japan... Thanks that's super useful to avoid the infamous 「日本語上手！」 「あぁ～そうなんですか！ありがとうございます…🙄」
So, having watched many of your videos, it now finally makes sense what my mom was saying when I was little and trying to learn Japanese. She kept saying I was saying Japanese words incorrectly, but she couldn’t articulate why. I ended up just pronouncing all my Japanese flat with very little to no inflection. Your videos have been very enlightening. Thank you!
Thank you so much, Dogen. It feels like it's nearly impossible to find good information regarding pitch accent anywhere, and you're one of the fewer, and in my personal opinion, THE BEST ONE, when it comes to covering one of the most important -- if not REALLY the most important part of the japanese language, at least for all people from western countries -- underrated aspect of the japanese language. I just wish there was more information out there regarding pitch accent for numbers and counters. Could you tell me if there are patterns for the pitch accent of all numbers, or they're all a huge mass of information that you have to memorize to learn them. Thank you once again. It's just I started learning japanese a year ago and everything I learned from this channel, and now this video, they're all helping me lot. Thank you.
I think I mentioned it before, but afaik it's actually better for learners if the correct pronounciation is shown at the end cause the last thing is always what sticks to your mind. I even recognised this myself during the video when trying to recap words in my mind. But nevertheless great advice, as always. Thanks a lot, Dogen!
My apologies-I try to do this in my Patreon series but didn't for this video as I was trying to concentrate more on the rule itself, rather than the recordings. My mistake-will be conscious of this in the next one!
I think your “tomorrow” example is the perfect example. Until people hear how bad it sounds in their own language, they probably won’t think it’s such a big deal. But seriously, once you hear it, you don’t want to make that same mistake.
Its so funny cause english isnt my native language, so I heard it and was like "no big deal" but then thought it in spanish and oh boy does it sound wrong
i'm going to japan in 3 or 4 weeks for a 1 year university exchange program. your content has been pretty entertaining and informative, even if i'm probably gonna have 外国人みたいな日本語 for a while
You're really, really, really good at explaining and extremely likable at the same time. Will definitely join your Patreon community when I'm finally done with Genki 2. Dogen 先生、ありがとう。
Im so thankful that i found your channel very early in my Japanese studies, which allows me to avoid most of these mistakes from the get go. I automatically apply low-high-high to new verbs and words and if the word has an accent, i deviate my pitch. ありがとうな、道元先生！
I've been learning Japanese for quite some time, but never really cared much for stress patterns. This is very informative, made me realise why I pronounce some verbs that I only learned by ear differently from others for no reason :)
Hi Dogen, I started teaching Japanese at a high school last year and have been trying to teach the basics of pitch accent, and modeling correct pitch for new words when I can. The other Japanese teacher at the school doesn't teach it at all; she thinks it isn't worth while because pitch for words varies depending on the dialect. :/ I think it's still important to be aware of.
Learning Russian ALWAYS includes the accent placement (tonic). I don't understand why it's not the same in Japanese. Pronunciation is SO important when learning a language.
In the case of Russian, knowing the accent is important because the pronunciation of the other vowels is affected by it. I guess people think in Japanese it's not that important because "people will understand you anyway", but it blows my mind that I only learned about it when a person actually didn't understand me: beginners books don't include it, teachers don't correct you and don't explain it either, and THE WORSE THING, there are people on the Internet debating if students should learn it or not, the same way they talk about learning or not kanji. It's ridiculous! If we are going to memorise an accent anyway (unconsciously) based on our mothertongue when we learn new words, why not learn the right accent from the beginning? Hope new books start including the pitch accent, like An Integrated Approach To Intermediate Japanese. Sorry, if I sound angry is because I am, thinking about all the time wasted 😅.
@@cantacarallada I can only agree! Pronunciation is crucial to make oneself understood. "Luckily" I'm only starting to learn Japanese, so I'll do my best from the beginning. Problem is, the accent isn't given on flashcards, or in apps... and apparently not in real textbooks either?
The more I watch your videos the more I think that's really a shame that they didin't teach it at university even though it was Japanese studies. You're doing really good job! Thank you!
I err heavily on the side of saying every verb as flat as possible, so this was a very sobering realization that every single time I've said 待つ I was saying it okashii while somehow not realizing. You're spot on that eventually some form of pronunciation study seems necessary to sound natural
There was never once a discussion about accents in my 4 years of Japanese at school. Everything was supposed to be just flat without accent besides Hana (nose and flower) 😂😂😂
I find this problem relatable to dealing with my cluttering speech impediment, because you're focusing on accurately reproducing a sound vs what your body naturally wants to do. Untrained, you have the same issue of making a mistake but maybe not even noticing unless you're expending a portion of your energy towards that. The good news is it does get easier with practice until it takes an unnoticable amount of effort!
A similar kind of pattern I’ve noticed while looking at pitch accent of words is that -しい adjectives tend to have the accent on し. I’m not advanced or anything so I don’t know if this applies in every case, but it seems to apply in all the cases I know
My mother in law definitely doesn't understand me when I make pitch accent mistakes :-) It's the biggest incentive to improving my pronunciation. I have mixed feelings, though. Rules are definitely useful, but in the end I think you *do* have to train your ears. A rule is nice to double check that you are doing it correctly, but in the end you need to train your neural network to just *do it*. Shadowing has been the only effective strategy I've used for that. Getting my wife to make fun of me if I make a mistake is useful too. It took her a while, but she's getting eerily enthousiastic about it...
You’re a legend Dogen. I came to Japan 6 years ago and I remember back then I used to brag that I could read Hiragana. I used to point out street signs to my wife and think I was the Japanese king. I soon realised Japanese is fairly HARD and started to study seriously. Two years ago I quit English teaching and found a real job and again as I had N2 I assumed I’d be a Japanese master but was quickly reminded that I’m still terrible and I was great at JLPT but not Japanese. I use your videos all the time and you give me confidence - my wife (a real life Japanese human) thinks you’re great too and honestly if you ever leave Japan I’m going home. Thank you!
Hi Jay! I actually talk about that in one of my 'A Japanese teacher grades your Japanese' videos. Here's a link to that: ua-cam.com/video/-_E2WzSKLVQ/v-deo.html Cheers!
I'm just beginning the learning process, but I'm gonna pretend that watching your videos is going to be helpful in the long run and ignore how little I know where to apply these rules 😇
Haha no worries at all! If you try to go slowly, maybe one rule a week or every other week it's actually very manageable. Best of luck with your studies!
Looking at all the verbs you say that are flat (as in they have the same pitch in the second last and last syllables) end in う and る. Maybe I'm seeing the pattern for vowel/soft consonant sound (as opposed to つ, which is a hard consonant sound).
Hi Cyber! It's actually a little bit dangerous to draw conclusions like this. For example, しめる (to close) and あける (to open) both end with る, but しめる has an accent, while あける does not. Likewise, ぬう (to sew) and あらう (to wash) both end with う, but ぬう has an accent, while あらう does not. I try and break down all of the important rules in my Patreon series, so I would encourage you to check that out as it will save you a lot of guess work! Here's a link: www.patreon.com/dogen
Don't know if this is the logic behind, but it makes sense that -tsu would be non-accented considering it's one of those... syllables? Kanas? that often gets omitted or shortened in pronunciation. Would it be correct to say that -tsu is never accented? Or are there exceptions? -n is also like that, right?
Hi Sport Seeker. This is a tricky question, but the short answer is that no, it's not safe to assume that つ is never accented. It is in fact the accented sound in the word shoes（くつ）, for example, so the phrase 靴が (くつが) should be pronounced as kuTSU ga. Remember the つ rule only applies to the dictionary form of verbs specifically. Hope this was beneficial, and if you'd like to learn more I'd encourage you to consider signing up on Patreon! www.patreon.com/dogen Cheers
My pleasure! If you find this useful I imagine you'll find a lot of value from Japanese Phonetics as well. Here's a link if you're interested! www.patreon.com/dogen
Thank you so much for this video! I work in a cancer centre in Canada and I try to use as much Japanese as I reasonably can with Japanese patients because they always comment that it makes them feel more comforted during the tests I do. I end up using 立って a lot and I'm wondering do you pitch the same in -te form? I noticed the brackets for dictionary readings.
You're telling me there are patterns and I don't have to study each individual word's accent!? My life just got so much easier thank you Dogen! Also you mentioned every word that has this pattern _/ as "accentless" is the low rise and then stay high pattern the default accent?
Hi SwaggMadlad! Yes, the 'low to high, then stay high' is the 'accentless' pattern. That said, this isn't necessarily the 'default accent' in Japanese; it really is a matter of knowing which pattern to use with which word. Luckily, there are many rules like the one in this lesson, and I try to break down all of the important ones in my series. For example, in lesson 21 (the lesson in which I introduce this rule), I also introduce 4 other rules, one of which pairs really well with this one. Here's a link if you're interested! www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-12022386 Cheers!
I used to discuss with my friends what we thought the lyrics to vocaloid songs were. And then go check to see who had the most accurate guess. For both pronunciation and translation. Pronunciation guesses were usually decent but not the lyrics.
Hi. Thanks for all the generous work. Just a production tip. Even though English is my first language, it’s really distracting with your mouth disappearing behind the mike business. Please lower it or put to one side. If it’s a condenser mike you could probably have it out of shot without problems. Cheers
I think I’m lucky in that my sensei in my college Japanese courses would grill us on pronunciation. I don’t (always) seem to have some of these common accent errors Dogen points out.
Question: How does the pitch placement work when the verb isn't in the infinitive? I know to put the accent 2nd to last with つverbs, but what happens when 待つ becomes 待たなければいけません, for example?
I think the rule actually makes a lot of sense intuitively. I'm just learning hiragana as a hobby, but I speak english as my native language and spanish (colombian) as a second language. Even just knowing one additional language opens up learning the linguistic characteristics of phonetics and grammatical nuances. I don't want to sound presumptive because, again, my knowledge of japanese is 100% not the best in the world, but つ and す are very quick syllables from most of what I hear. Before knowing anything, です only sounded like "des" instead of the more properly acknowledged "desu." So, just as a matter of how つ and す are pronounced, I can absolutely accept the general idea that verbs ending in つ have an english analogue of accent done because the natural pronunciation of つ can definitely emulate that to a degree.
You should think of it as the vowel sound being a bit muted or suppressed, but "quick" isn't the right word: Japanese has an element of timing to the language (they call it "mora"), where all the basic kana forms take up one mora of time. If it wasn't for the long vowels taking up two mora of time and ん also taking up one mora for itself, you could think of it as each syllable taking one mora. This means that the muted vowel sounds like in "desu" still take up the same amount of time. As examples, I like to think of "desu" being pronounced like "des' " and personal names ending in "-nosuke" being pronounced as "-nos'ke", with the apostrophe to remind myself not to rush the pronunciation.
Wish I could super like!!! Or like multiple times!!! Or something!!! 😆 Wouldn't have known pitch accent is a thing without your channel. Thank you so much for sharing! ❤️ ❤️ ❤️
My pleasure Tim! If you find this video useful and would like to learn more perhaps consider signing up on Patreon! It's a great way to support the channel, and you'll get immediate access to 75+ lessons similar to this! Best of luck with your Japanese studies.
tsu is usually pronounced voicelessly most of the time because the vowel is assimilated to the voiceless ts, that's why pitch falls on tsu. Not because the pitch goes down, but because it dissapears entirely ...のような気がする
I'd even like to say that if you say a word with the wrong pitch accent, people will understand you... PROBABLY. It's easy to not realize how much we subconsciously rely on accent systems to understand words at high speeds, and when those are wrong, you may be able to work out what they meant anywhere from quickly to not so quickly, or even not at all depending on the word. Not to mention the few words where differing accents can mean different meanings or different words, and grammar context can often help, but not always. There's like innumerable ways to work out what was intended, but I do honestly think there are times when all those ways fail and it's just not clear.
I wonder how this changes with each dialect. For example, 父 and 乳 are pronounced the same in standard Japanese but they are differentiated by an accent in the Kansai dialect.
@Dogen Is there a similar rule for words starting with 以? I've noticed that every word I've encountered so far, that starts with 以 like 以外, starts with a high pitch on the い sound and then drops for the rest of the word.
I always end up full of silly questions for my Japanese colleagues after watching your videos. Things such as, how do you say "the chopsticks are on the edge of the bridge" or "Hana has a flower in her nose"? So I can hear further examples of accent and grammar. They always get a laugh out of it.
That sounds fun! I'm betting that you sometimes need to be careful how you construct these so you don't get yourself confused by occasional word-order changes between Japanese and English.
As always incredibly helpful, thank you Dogen! Question for you, and forgive me if you've covered this in previous videos, but I'm curious as to how you've accumulated a concept for general pitch accent across a wide range of vocabulary? For example, since you turned me on to focusing on pitch accent, I find that there are very rarely "rules" that can be applied to a certain range of words (I'm talking nouns, verbs, whatever). Has it truly just been a long process of researching individual words and internalizing them, or are there other similar patterns that you've found useful?
I memba reading somewhere that Japanese is around 68% flat so I just default to that and treat accented words as special. Sorta frames the つ rule in a positive way as opposed to implying the inverse. Also, ngl, the Migaku Japanese Anki addon has me remembering words as 'purple, blue, red, and orange'
Now I am confused, when they say that japanese has pitch, does it mean like pitch in sound pitch (tone/frequency) or does it mean accent as in sound stress (like a lingering syllable)?
Pitch-accent and pronunciation lessons, listening exercises, and ANKI decks here! www.patreon.com/dogen
The bit about training your ears reminds me of something my wife has said about her training in visual art, martial arts, &c.: A lot of it is the ability to simply see what is actually there rather than letting you brain fill in what it expects, as this is a prerequisite to reproducing it.
@@MAlanThomasII I think Dogan's native language must be beagle...
I had been living in Osaka for almost 2 years now and have always pronounced those accentless patterns the incorrect way. Is there a video on this specific pattern that you can point me to on youtube or your patreon?
@@AwesomeWholesome Hi HIkky! I actually think it would be better to go through my series from the beginning, rather than jumping ahead to any specific video, as that might result in even more confusion. Here's a link again for your convenience! www.patreon.com/dogen
I'd also like to note, however, that you may actually be saying those words correctly if you're speaking in Osaka dialect, as pitch-accent in Kansai is different than that of standard Japanese. If you think you were saying them wrong before you went to Osaka, however, then it's probably a result of untrained ears, rather than the result of living in Osaka. Hope this helps!
The fact that this information is available for free on UA-cam is incredible, thank you so much once again dogen san
My pleasure Jeonex!
Learning Japanese seems to be this weird process where, every time you finish one of your long goals in the language you feel compelled to go back and learn everything from the beginning, with a focus on a different aspect.
Pitch accent is definitely going to be one of those things too.
So true! Pitch-accent and pronunciation in particular I believe should be studied early on as doing so is certainly the best way to avoid developing bad speaking habits. Always easier to create a good habit than it is to get rid of a bad habit and replace it with a good one. Cheers!
I haven’t moved from N5 in 2 years cause I keep going back to the beginning. Now I’m trying to move on despite my urge to learn Japanese with “a better book, app, method”
@Nullatrum・ノラ虎 probably no one else will tell you this, i will. to learn japanese you have to be a japanese and to be a japanese you have to have a japanese subconscious which is formed over centuries. best way is to be born into a japanese family and be raised there. but you can also join later though now you make conscious efforts to learn.
unless you be a japanese you will always be an outsider and never be able to speak the language, more than like a linguist.
that's why it's difficult. first of all japan's condition is so rare, so almost no one in the rest of the world can match. so don't be upset, if you really want to, start from zero and build yourself and then you will be able to make rapport.
if you don't have intentions to aim for that level, stop this waste.
this is the reality.
@@ValeRubioo Best way to get up to N1 (at least it was for me) is to study at Kumon. I also learned the correct pitch accent from the very beginning there as well ☺️.
@@深夜-l9fik answering more than a year later is maybe pointless but just wanted to point out one important aspect that you missed.
Since English is not my first language I could confidently tell you: it is no different. With ur native language you develop the basic ruleset of speaking that becomes the default mode. And these habits are nearly impossible to fully get rid of when trying to use another language (especially pronunciation). Why bother tho? The problem is within society more than inside every learner's brain so to speak. English is so commonly used for international communication that people are used to all the weirdness produced by, ehm... so-called "foreigners". That's why you won't be laughed at just because of your pronunciation or insta-jouzu'd (the bad way) after asking for a direction in a slightly off manner. On the other hand Japanese is so hard to learn that for japanese people you encounter you could be the first non-native they meet. That could be why they don't know how to react/IF they need to react. Or a cultural cliche? Anyways, the thing you were right about is that you simply *have to* learn to live with being a witness of such an attitude daily or never try learning a "not-so-international" language I guess.
My teacher once laughed so hard at me for my pronounciation of the word for Curry and He.
It was so awk and he in that situation did not make clear what my mistake was. I then began to look for pronounciation and found you. It was a relief to finally have found the solution but then i began to fear my own pronounciation with every sentence.
A big THANKS to you for everything that you do because you do it in such a lovely, friendly, fun and positive way it is so good to listen and watch.
My pleasure Ravendorify! I've been in many similar circumstances before-can vividly remember getting laughed at for using the wrong pitch-accent for rain (said candy instead)-and I try to make my series feel positive and friendly specifically because of said experiences. There's no shame in making a mistake, only in making fun of people who unknowingly make them. Best of luck with your future Japanese studies!
@@Dogen You just reminded me of the scene in Adam Sandler's Bedtime Stories when it rained gumballs! It actually happened, 飴が降っていた.
You're amazing! Actually, even though I am a Japanese, I didn't know the rule at all. And I realized how difficult Japanese' accent and pronounce , so people who study Japanese are excellent. I respect you guys.
I've always said when I moved to Japan (and started teaching English), I had to re-learn English. I didn't even know the rule for A or An
Yes, there are many linguistic features that native people would just learn naturally through mimicry rather than being aware that it’s a specific rule.
You didnt know a and an??? How did you last this long online without getting attacked 😅😅
As I am just starting Japanese classes in one week, and have been focusing on getting the accents of words correct, I really like this video pointing out *what* to listen to, providing examples of how it sounds as well. I feel more confident going into this, and more prepared. I am also prepared to take my leftover tuition money to sign up for your Patreon to further my learning and ensure I am getting the most of my learning. Thank you Dogen.
Thank you very much for the kind words and support, Top. If you found this video useful, I'm sure you'll find the Patreon series to be worth it as well. Thanks again, and best of luck with your future studies!
You are more proficient in teaching the pitch accent than my teachers for 3 years of bachelor in Japanese studies I swear - I only had 3hours of speaking and listening per week, and 20 hours of writing and history of Japan... Thanks that's super useful to avoid the infamous 「日本語上手！」 「あぁ～そうなんですか！ありがとうございます…🙄」
So, having watched many of your videos, it now finally makes sense what my mom was saying when I was little and trying to learn Japanese. She kept saying I was saying Japanese words incorrectly, but she couldn’t articulate why. I ended up just pronouncing all my Japanese flat with very little to no inflection. Your videos have been very enlightening. Thank you!
ありがとうございます
Thank you so much, Dogen. It feels like it's nearly impossible to find good information regarding pitch accent anywhere, and you're one of the fewer, and in my personal opinion, THE BEST ONE, when it comes to covering one of the most important -- if not REALLY the most important part of the japanese language, at least for all people from western countries -- underrated aspect of the japanese language.
I just wish there was more information out there regarding pitch accent for numbers and counters. Could you tell me if there are patterns for the pitch accent of all numbers, or they're all a huge mass of information that you have to memorize to learn them.
Thank you once again. It's just I started learning japanese a year ago and everything I learned from this channel, and now this video, they're all helping me lot. Thank you.
I think I mentioned it before, but afaik it's actually better for learners if the correct pronounciation is shown at the end cause the last thing is always what sticks to your mind.
I even recognised this myself during the video when trying to recap words in my mind. But nevertheless great advice, as always. Thanks a lot, Dogen!
My apologies-I try to do this in my Patreon series but didn't for this video as I was trying to concentrate more on the rule itself, rather than the recordings. My mistake-will be conscious of this in the next one!
I actually prefer NOT hearing the wrong example at all. But if I have to, I’d like correct, incorrect, correct.
The illustrations are extremely helpful
Really appreciate that whenever you say a word with the wrong pitch, you don't wait long before saying it in the right pitch again.
Thank you!
I think your “tomorrow” example is the perfect example. Until people hear how bad it sounds in their own language, they probably won’t think it’s such a big deal. But seriously, once you hear it, you don’t want to make that same mistake.
Its so funny cause english isnt my native language, so I heard it and was like "no big deal" but then thought it in spanish and oh boy does it sound wrong
@@diegomastro5681 Yeah, change the accent of "tomorrow" from "mo" to "row", and you instantly get the image of a Frenchman speaking English.
i'm going to japan in 3 or 4 weeks for a 1 year university exchange program. your content has been pretty entertaining and informative, even if i'm probably gonna have 外国人みたいな日本語 for a while
You're really, really, really good at explaining and extremely likable at the same time. Will definitely join your Patreon community when I'm finally done with Genki 2. Dogen 先生、ありがとう。
Thank you very much Yanko! Best of luck with your Japanese studies, and looking forward to seeing you on Patreon!
先生に敬語を話してください
@@reynaldoflores4522 教師かよ
@@sejcai すみませんでした、私は日本人でわありません、日本語の学生だけです、
日本語ネイティブとしては一つ一つの動詞のピッチなんて考えた事もなかったけど、言われてみたら確かに…。目から鱗です。
「開ける」は平板なのに「付ける」は尾高、でも「見つける」はまた平板だったりして、学習者からしたら訳がわからないですよね。
そのあたり英語の例を交えながら学習者にもわかりやすく説明されてるDogenさんは流石だと思いました。
I'm super happy that I found your channel
Im so thankful that i found your channel very early in my Japanese studies, which allows me to avoid most of these mistakes from the get go. I automatically apply low-high-high to new verbs and words and if the word has an accent, i deviate my pitch. ありがとうな、道元先生！
Just begun learning japanese and this channel is absolute GOLD!
I also love the way you talk and explain.
普通に日本語母語話者が見ても面白いんだよなこういう動画
I learned more in this video than from my now 5 month of language school in Japan. Thank you
It's the first time I hear you speak English, and I appreciate that you did. Great explanation!! Thank you very much!
We have the same profile picture!
I've been learning Japanese for quite some time, but never really cared much for stress patterns. This is very informative, made me realise why I pronounce some verbs that I only learned by ear differently from others for no reason :)
These aren't stress patterns, but pitch accent patterns.
See his video "Japanese Phonetics #5 Terminology" from 6:35 👍
@@MyLittleMagneton Thank you for the correction :)
そうだったんだ…。このレベルの説明は日本人にとっても目から鱗です。というかDogenさん、ただ真面目なだけの動画も撮れるんですね🤣
Hi Dogen, I started teaching Japanese at a high school last year and have been trying to teach the basics of pitch accent, and modeling correct pitch for new words when I can. The other Japanese teacher at the school doesn't teach it at all; she thinks it isn't worth while because pitch for words varies depending on the dialect. :/ I think it's still important to be aware of.
Thank you for sharing it with us. Always great to watch your videos.
My pleasure!
Super helpful!! I’ll be listening to my coworkers as they speak Japanese with an ear for accents. Or at least attempting to lol
As an aspiring Japanese beginner this channel is a goldmine. Thank you so much
Learning Russian ALWAYS includes the accent placement (tonic). I don't understand why it's not the same in Japanese. Pronunciation is SO important when learning a language.
In the case of Russian, knowing the accent is important because the pronunciation of the other vowels is affected by it. I guess people think in Japanese it's not that important because "people will understand you anyway", but it blows my mind that I only learned about it when a person actually didn't understand me: beginners books don't include it, teachers don't correct you and don't explain it either, and THE WORSE THING, there are people on the Internet debating if students should learn it or not, the same way they talk about learning or not kanji. It's ridiculous! If we are going to memorise an accent anyway (unconsciously) based on our mothertongue when we learn new words, why not learn the right accent from the beginning? Hope new books start including the pitch accent, like An Integrated Approach To Intermediate Japanese.
Sorry, if I sound angry is because I am, thinking about all the time wasted 😅.
Also in Spanish
@@cantacarallada I can only agree! Pronunciation is crucial to make oneself understood. "Luckily" I'm only starting to learn Japanese, so I'll do my best from the beginning. Problem is, the accent isn't given on flashcards, or in apps... and apparently not in real textbooks either?
The more I watch your videos the more I think that's really a shame that they didin't teach it at university even though it was Japanese studies.
You're doing really good job! Thank you!
I err heavily on the side of saying every verb as flat as possible, so this was a very sobering realization that every single time I've said 待つ I was saying it okashii while somehow not realizing. You're spot on that eventually some form of pronunciation study seems necessary to sound natural
Good point.
makes me glad i played music and learned songs by ear all that time trying to distinguish sounds was worth it
I'd love to see a video explaining how to train your ears to hear pitch accent. Excellent video as always thank you
This is incredibly useful! Ty, Dogen!
thanks for the quick lesson, dogen!
There was never once a discussion about accents in my 4 years of Japanese at school. Everything was supposed to be just flat without accent besides Hana (nose and flower) 😂😂😂
It really is a shame they don't teach this in most classrooms-it makes it almost impossible for most learners to nip bad habits in the bud!
Really? What school was that?
@@reynaldoflores4522 not a language school but a German institution you can compare to Highschool in the United States
Thank you for the video, it was useful! 役に立ちました。
Nice. I was just about to ask whether you had more explanations on accent rules and then I noticed your playlist
I find this problem relatable to dealing with my cluttering speech impediment, because you're focusing on accurately reproducing a sound vs what your body naturally wants to do. Untrained, you have the same issue of making a mistake but maybe not even noticing unless you're expending a portion of your energy towards that. The good news is it does get easier with practice until it takes an unnoticable amount of effort!
面白いことに、私の大阪人の母に「〇つ」をいくつか読ませてみたろころ、アクセントが下がることはなく逆に全部上がりました😂
大阪弁のイントネーションは標準語とかけ離れているようです。
Very good video. Thank you, Dogen!
A similar kind of pattern I’ve noticed while looking at pitch accent of words is that -しい adjectives tend to have the accent on し. I’m not advanced or anything so I don’t know if this applies in every case, but it seems to apply in all the cases I know
My mother in law definitely doesn't understand me when I make pitch accent mistakes :-) It's the biggest incentive to improving my pronunciation. I have mixed feelings, though. Rules are definitely useful, but in the end I think you *do* have to train your ears. A rule is nice to double check that you are doing it correctly, but in the end you need to train your neural network to just *do it*. Shadowing has been the only effective strategy I've used for that. Getting my wife to make fun of me if I make a mistake is useful too. It took her a while, but she's getting eerily enthousiastic about it...
You’re a legend Dogen. I came to Japan 6 years ago and I remember back then I used to brag that I could read Hiragana. I used to point out street signs to my wife and think I was the Japanese king. I soon realised Japanese is fairly HARD and started to study seriously. Two years ago I quit English teaching and found a real job and again as I had N2 I assumed I’d be a Japanese master but was quickly reminded that I’m still terrible and I was great at JLPT but not Japanese. I use your videos all the time and you give me confidence - my wife (a real life Japanese human) thinks you’re great too and honestly if you ever leave Japan I’m going home. Thank you!
"If you ever leave Japan I'm going home?" What the hell? 😂 you stalking my pitch accent sensei?
thank you for this video Dogen👍
Could you do a demonstration of correct and incorrect pitch accent in normal sentences? It feels like that would be amazing ear training.
You should make a video here for the 2 kanji 4 mora rule, that was without a doubt the most helpful for me from your series
Hi Jay! I actually talk about that in one of my 'A Japanese teacher grades your Japanese' videos. Here's a link to that: ua-cam.com/video/-_E2WzSKLVQ/v-deo.html
Cheers!
amazing video dogen !
Extremely helpful video! Thank you so much!
I've recently picked up on pitch accents on different languages now so thanks Dogen for this tip.
I'm just beginning the learning process, but I'm gonna pretend that watching your videos is going to be helpful in the long run and ignore how little I know where to apply these rules 😇
Haha no worries at all! If you try to go slowly, maybe one rule a week or every other week it's actually very manageable. Best of luck with your studies!
Thank you, I think I hear it now😊🌟
Thanks Dogen! As always a very useful explanation!
Looking at all the verbs you say that are flat (as in they have the same pitch in the second last and last syllables) end in う and る. Maybe I'm seeing the pattern for vowel/soft consonant sound (as opposed to つ, which is a hard consonant sound).
what even is "soft" and "hard" consonant lol
linguistics 2.0 terminology just dropped?
Hi Cyber! It's actually a little bit dangerous to draw conclusions like this. For example, しめる (to close) and あける (to open) both end with る, but しめる has an accent, while あける does not. Likewise, ぬう (to sew) and あらう (to wash) both end with う, but ぬう has an accent, while あらう does not. I try and break down all of the important rules in my Patreon series, so I would encourage you to check that out as it will save you a lot of guess work! Here's a link: www.patreon.com/dogen
I appreciate your guidance videos (and your Spock ears) very much. Thank you
Thanks Dougen!
Thank you for this video!
Thanks Dogen!!!
僕は日本人ですけど、日本人でも、日本語は難しいって感じることがあります。
日本語頑張って覚えてほしい。ぼくも英語頑張る。
as a japanese learner i am so happy i managed to fully understand your first sentence all by myself, it's honestly a great accomplishment for me
Don't know if this is the logic behind, but it makes sense that -tsu would be non-accented considering it's one of those... syllables? Kanas? that often gets omitted or shortened in pronunciation.
Would it be correct to say that -tsu is never accented? Or are there exceptions?
-n is also like that, right?
Hi Sport Seeker. This is a tricky question, but the short answer is that no, it's not safe to assume that つ is never accented. It is in fact the accented sound in the word shoes（くつ）, for example, so the phrase 靴が (くつが) should be pronounced as kuTSU ga. Remember the つ rule only applies to the dictionary form of verbs specifically. Hope this was beneficial, and if you'd like to learn more I'd encourage you to consider signing up on Patreon! www.patreon.com/dogen
Cheers
@@Dogen Maybe the no accent only applies to verbs or did I miss some words?
I can’t find this rule even in my university books📚 THANK YOU Dogen! It saves me hours of studying 📖
My pleasure! If you find this useful I imagine you'll find a lot of value from Japanese Phonetics as well. Here's a link if you're interested! www.patreon.com/dogen
Super helpful, thank you!
Glad it was useful for you!
Thank you so much for this video! I work in a cancer centre in Canada and I try to use as much Japanese as I reasonably can with Japanese patients because they always comment that it makes them feel more comforted during the tests I do.
I end up using 立って a lot and I'm wondering do you pitch the same in -te form? I noticed the brackets for dictionary readings.
立って also has its accent on the た！
You're telling me there are patterns and I don't have to study each individual word's accent!? My life just got so much easier thank you Dogen! Also you mentioned every word that has this pattern _/ as "accentless" is the low rise and then stay high pattern the default accent?
Hi SwaggMadlad! Yes, the 'low to high, then stay high' is the 'accentless' pattern. That said, this isn't necessarily the 'default accent' in Japanese; it really is a matter of knowing which pattern to use with which word. Luckily, there are many rules like the one in this lesson, and I try to break down all of the important ones in my series. For example, in lesson 21 (the lesson in which I introduce this rule), I also introduce 4 other rules, one of which pairs really well with this one. Here's a link if you're interested!
www.patreon.com/posts/japanese-episode-12022386
Cheers!
@@Dogen Thank you so much for clarifying I really appreciate your videos and I strive to speak Japanese like you someday!
@@loogloogloogr My pleasure!
Thank you
I used to discuss with my friends what we thought the lyrics to vocaloid songs were. And then go check to see who had the most accurate guess. For both pronunciation and translation. Pronunciation guesses were usually decent but not the lyrics.
I really wish you were around when I was studying Japanese in college.
Oh this is great, thank you!!
You're very welcome!
0:20 here's where I talk along with the strongest possible American accent.
Wish someone had told me this 20 years ago.
つ Rule is 2:50 - 3:40
関西人はincorrectアクセントがナチュラル。正誤の問題ではない気がする。同じ音でも単語によって音程が変わる日本語は難しい。こう解説されると、外国人にとって、ざっくり関東弁と関西弁はかなり違って聞こえるのかも…。
「役立つ」は棒読みでもナチュラルだと思うなぁ。
英語とかはアクセントが大事って聞くし、Dogenさんの解説で気付かされることは多い。
Hi. Thanks for all the generous work. Just a production tip. Even though English is my first language, it’s really distracting with your mouth disappearing behind the mike business. Please lower it or put to one side. If it’s a condenser mike you could probably have it out of shot without problems. Cheers
I think I’m lucky in that my sensei in my college Japanese courses would grill us on pronunciation. I don’t (always) seem to have some of these common accent errors Dogen points out.
that helps me
I'm not even learning Japanese but this will be useful for conversations at the pub
Question: How does the pitch placement work when the verb isn't in the infinitive? I know to put the accent 2nd to last with つverbs, but what happens when 待つ becomes 待たなければいけません, for example?
In JTest, in writing sentences, especially,
D-E level, can I think normally and write?
私が今一番知りたいことです。答える皆さんえ心から感謝いたします。
What app or website do u use to play those pitches at 1:38?
I hire a trained native speaker who uses a professional set up!
holy crap Dogen pronounced that tomórrow perfectly
In all fairness as an early learner to Japanese it’s great just to learn the verbs even if pitch is wrong.
I think the rule actually makes a lot of sense intuitively. I'm just learning hiragana as a hobby, but I speak english as my native language and spanish (colombian) as a second language. Even just knowing one additional language opens up learning the linguistic characteristics of phonetics and grammatical nuances.
I don't want to sound presumptive because, again, my knowledge of japanese is 100% not the best in the world, but つ and す are very quick syllables from most of what I hear. Before knowing anything, です only sounded like "des" instead of the more properly acknowledged "desu." So, just as a matter of how つ and す are pronounced, I can absolutely accept the general idea that verbs ending in つ have an english analogue of accent done because the natural pronunciation of つ can definitely emulate that to a degree.
You should think of it as the vowel sound being a bit muted or suppressed, but "quick" isn't the right word: Japanese has an element of timing to the language (they call it "mora"), where all the basic kana forms take up one mora of time. If it wasn't for the long vowels taking up two mora of time and ん also taking up one mora for itself, you could think of it as each syllable taking one mora. This means that the muted vowel sounds like in "desu" still take up the same amount of time. As examples, I like to think of "desu" being pronounced like "des' " and personal names ending in "-nosuke" being pronounced as "-nos'ke", with the apostrophe to remind myself not to rush the pronunciation.
Informative
Wish I could super like!!! Or like multiple times!!! Or something!!! 😆
Wouldn't have known pitch accent is a thing without your channel. Thank you so much for sharing! ❤️ ❤️ ❤️
My pleasure Tim! If you find this video useful and would like to learn more perhaps consider signing up on Patreon! It's a great way to support the channel, and you'll get immediate access to 75+ lessons similar to this! Best of luck with your Japanese studies.
thanks
5:40 Oh I know just how bad I am.
I'm not even surprised to learn that I pronounced "to open" wrong all this time.
tsu is usually pronounced voicelessly most of the time because the vowel is assimilated to the voiceless ts, that's why pitch falls on tsu. Not because the pitch goes down, but because it dissapears entirely
...のような気がする
This is only true some of the time, unfortunately. つ is in fact accented in many words, such as 靴 and 夏！
I'd even like to say that if you say a word with the wrong pitch accent, people will understand you... PROBABLY. It's easy to not realize how much we subconsciously rely on accent systems to understand words at high speeds, and when those are wrong, you may be able to work out what they meant anywhere from quickly to not so quickly, or even not at all depending on the word. Not to mention the few words where differing accents can mean different meanings or different words, and grammar context can often help, but not always. There's like innumerable ways to work out what was intended, but I do honestly think there are times when all those ways fail and it's just not clear.
I wonder how this changes with each dialect. For example, 父 and 乳 are pronounced the same in standard Japanese but they are differentiated by an accent in the Kansai dialect.
@Dogen Is there a similar rule for words starting with 以? I've noticed that every word I've encountered so far, that starts with 以 like 以外, starts with a high pitch on the い sound and then drops for the rest of the word.
I always end up full of silly questions for my Japanese colleagues after watching your videos. Things such as, how do you say "the chopsticks are on the edge of the bridge" or "Hana has a flower in her nose"? So I can hear further examples of accent and grammar. They always get a laugh out of it.
That sounds fun! I'm betting that you sometimes need to be careful how you construct these so you don't get yourself confused by occasional word-order changes between Japanese and English.
@@jamesfrankiewicz5768 even the native Japanese get confused when trying to construct those sentences. Too many hashi lol
So so useful
As always incredibly helpful, thank you Dogen! Question for you, and forgive me if you've covered this in previous videos, but I'm curious as to how you've accumulated a concept for general pitch accent across a wide range of vocabulary? For example, since you turned me on to focusing on pitch accent, I find that there are very rarely "rules" that can be applied to a certain range of words (I'm talking nouns, verbs, whatever). Has it truly just been a long process of researching individual words and internalizing them, or are there other similar patterns that you've found useful?
In spanish, everyone says HAlloween, with an accent in the first syllabe, and will tell you they remember it being said like that in movies an tv.
I memba reading somewhere that Japanese is around 68% flat so I just default to that and treat accented words as special. Sorta frames the つ rule in a positive way as opposed to implying the inverse.
Also, ngl, the Migaku Japanese Anki addon has me remembering words as 'purple, blue, red, and orange'
If Taberu-eat is flat in simple verb then what is the accent on do you want eat causal form- (taberu?). Is the word still flat or not?
Now I am confused, when they say that japanese has pitch, does it mean like pitch in sound pitch (tone/frequency) or does it mean accent as in sound stress (like a lingering syllable)?
i think its a good sign that i recognized a large chunk of the words in this video. but that also means i should probably do immersion D:
More immersion is always a good thing!
Ну, правило подобное этому я еще не встречал, спасибо, буду знать.
どういたしまして！