Great job on this history lesson. Thanks to the originator of the work and the commenters that improved the detail even more with extra information on the history. The climbing of a rope is better with all the innovation.
This whole mess is just like a divorce battle. The only winners are the attorneys that walk away with the $$$. I'm glad I bought my SAKA before this all started. I love it.
I've always been fascinated how many SRT techniques came by way of caving - thanks for going over this history. Rope Walking systems were known as early as 1971. In the first issue of Nylon Highway (Feb 1974), Bruce Smith describes it in the article "Rigging the Floating Cam System", and says "The Floating System was proven to be the fastest ascending method available at Convention '71 Races ..." Like the Big Shot patent, the essential claims involved are so minor compared to the body of knowledge and prior art that's being built upon. Really hope everyone can settle and move on quickly.
Nick Hatch that's great info, I didn't come across the 1971 reference, I need to look that up. I hope it all works out quickly, we don't need people afraid to make anything new because of patent land mines.
I sure am late to the gate here since this is a vid from 2018 but,,, I totally agree with everything you are saying with respect to this feud over the SAKA vs HAAS. I strongly feel that Mr. Mumford has contributed is so ideal for this tool that I'm upset to the point of boycotting Weaver products, which I do buy and enjoy, until this matter is finally resolved hoping that Weaver and Mumford come to an amicable solution that benefits both parties. Thank you for the history lesson, I found it interesting. And thanks for the clever humor, you crack me up ;-) Joe
Thanks for the awesome video, great information. I’ve built both designs for myself with tid-bits floating around the tool bag, they’ll be coming for me next, lol.
My Gibbs knee ascender worked well in 1973. This patent dispute is classic...and mutually destructive. Unless these guys relax and cross-license, only the lawyers will win.
Chuckles love it, no school like the old school. Hopefully these guys can put down the law guns and get back to the business of getting us all into trees.
So... I can’t believe I waited so long to watch this video after it stared at me for so long in my “recommended” column. This is very interesting for sure. I know Mike very well and have also kept up with Richard’s videos for years but never knew the timeline of the ascenders. I believe that the HAAS Velox (haas 2) IS significantly different from the SAKA in the same manner the SAKA was significantly different from the HAAS 1.0. (I have a few patents so I’m fairly familiar with the lingo and jargon the USPTO uses and looks for) It’s very interesting that this all took place when Weaver hired Mike and acquired his IP. I say this because I have found that the upper mgmt and staff at Weaver Arborist have been nothing but geniune and involved business people (as compared to those at the B word company). Anyways, great video
Thanks for watching Dennis I appreciate it.This was my take on the story, I made a follow up video as things moved forward, it was made before Richard was finally awarded his patent, but you can watch it here ua-cam.com/video/AMnpeyf0Tec/v-deo.html climb safe!
Dido. I am 61 YEARS OLD I don't have that many years left of rope climbing I need all the help I can get. Rope climbing is hard on the finger joints so I am all ways looking for easier ways to access the tree tops.
the hard thing about patents in the real world is you have to defend them otherwise you lose the rights to it. so it results in lawsuits that might seem crazy. the company i work for sued the largest company in our space because they did use our patents. but like you suggest in the video, the smart decision was made to avoid a lengthy court battle where both of us lose AND a significant number of people worldwide are affected. They entered into a license agreement with us, we keep our IP, get a paycheck for innovating and they keep their business running no problem. Gotta find the win-win in the situation
Any update on this? I noticed Richard is still selling the SAKA miniMax v2 on his site. I bought the mini max when this video came out just so I didn’t miss my opportunity to get one. Great video.
The lawsuit from Weaver is still ongoing, and Richard is still getting the bill for it, that's about all I know. I'm going to buy things from him every chance I get to support what he is doing.
Educational and well I’m kind of lost for words.. I’ll just leave it like that, I’ve had lots of tree people talk about this on social media. I could just say that they’re very upset with Weaver. Like telling hundreds of people like myself to quit buying Garbage 🤷🏻♂️ Sad n now I know why 👍🏼 another great video Joe
hillbilly Yo thanks man, unless you happen to be on the right forum at the right time there was no way to know all this backstory. I figured most climbers would have no idea why everyone was pissed off.
Free Fallin I had no clue but thanks to you and being open and honest about your videos and forming folks like myself who depend on folks like you I can answer questions that guys have and refer them to your video or I can just inform them because they are misinformed and they can do their own research but most of the time they’ll do one of two things either listen to me or look at your video and understand that you’re being honest about your research
Greg Brown Right on Greg I just happen to be taken lunch do you get photos on your phone I’ll send you a funny one if you do someone wasn’t paying attention oops broken fence 😳💩🤷🏻♂️ I was loading logs n herd a crunch 🤔🤔😶
Always a great show. You do know that tree people are very territorial? Lol. Why can't we all just get along 🤔? I have the mini SAKA. I want to get the conversion kit.
Now is a good time to get the conversion kit, Weaver has already started to go after it. I just hope they figure out that industry dollars are going to come to them through innovation, not shakedowns.
Anybody have any idea how I can get a new bungee for my knee ascender and how I can fix because is broke. Thanks I appreciate for any help.,"climb safe guy's "
Thanks, that was a couple of weeks of reading fights, threats, and arguments; followed by a couple more weeks digging into the real history of rope walking. I do love a good story though, it's fascinating to me the path inventions take before they land in my hand.
Free Fallin Do you put the history of rope walking systems into perspective I don’t read much I’m pretty much sure out on the tree world kind a guy. If I’m not running around almost literally with an O20T I’m chipping massive piles of brush. anywhere from 15 to 20 yards a day. A person like myself really appreciates your informative video.
@@mvblitzyo I'm glad you got some info from it. It's harder for me to get out and climb when it's 5 degrees outside so I am working on more history type videos now, one for making different rope eyes, and maybe one later on rope itself. Research keeps me warm.
Hola, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascender_(climbing) Creo que Juan Martin es un escalador moderno, pero el Jumar fue inventado hace 60 años, llamado así por su fabricante Jümar Pangit, una compañía que a su vez lleva el nombre de los inventores de jumar Adolph Jüsi y Walter Marti.
I finally bought me a SAKA mini max v2. Thats where we are today! And because of this video, I never even considered the HAASard..😂 Weawer can go and stuff their corporate greed to the place where the sun don't shine!
so now here it is 2 1/2 years later, mr Mumford laid off most all of his team and now has reached a settlement with weaver. allegedly he will or has started to build again, now thru innovation it is called the saka mini /max. life is all about innovation, building a better mouse trap. it is way to expensive for big companies to innovate, there may be years of new designs before the final product comes to market. small companies (like climbing innovations) work long tireless hours /days/ years and as soon as they get a product ready to market get bought out by big conglomerates.
All true, I hope this mess makes other companies realize what a waste of resources and marketing image these frivolous lawsuits are. Innovation is what the market wants, I say fire the lawyers and get to work.
Kinda put me in mind of the Wright brothers accomplishing close to nothing for 15 years because they were too busy filing suits against Glen Curtiss for violating their “ownership of flying”. Meanwhile, Curtiss was busy pushing aviation technology into the future.
Excellent job with this. Shameful to think you can steal an idea essentially ,improve it...then sue Richard Mumford for basically perfecting it and including a sweet 'biner in the kit. This comes down to 'biner envy
Nathan Silveira it really is a shame, the good news is they were able to come to an agreement and the SAKA mini was just released! You can find it at climbinginnovations.com
Excellent news! I hope the terms benefit Richard more than the opposition. The thought of a guy that obviously cares about the work, the gear and the industry losing out doesn't sit well with anyone. The reply is appreciated ,as well as the video. I feel informed and entertained , mission accomplished haha , Thx man
I'm just baffled that the "idea" of attaching something to something else with a rigid strip of material rather than with a floppy strip of material could even be patentable. If it is, it shouldn't be, and I don't give a rat's ass how Microsoft started. In my opinion this "inventor" deserves, at most, a pat on the back and a thank you, not a wheelbarrowful of money. There are plenty of people on UA-cam that have similar ideas, and what do they do? They make a video about their idea or DIY gadget, get a few hundred thousand views, a few hundred "cool idea, bro" comments, and then they carry on with their lives. In any case, this is such a simple device that anybody can easily make it at home if they want to.
Funny, that's exactly what he did, he put up a DIY video, it's still up. Then a lot of people asked him to make it for them because it was not "a simple device" for some. So he made them. The stiff tether helps keep flop out of the system, I've tried both, it helps. If you want to have the opinion that his additions were no big deal, that's fine but last week the US Patent office disagreed with you and said that what he changed was significant enough to be a new device.
I never said it's no big deal. I said such simple ideas -- ideas that require no significant amount of ingenuity, experimentation, or research work -- shouldn't be patentable. The gadget is useful, but it's extremely surprising nobody had "invented" it before. Did you know eBay got a patent for online auctioning and that's why they have a monopoly in that business? The patent is worth billions and billlions, but are you telling me any random fool wouldn't have come up with the idea a couple of months later if Pierre Omidyar, the eBay founder, had never been born? There's nothing we can do about eBay, but thank God we have the Chinese for the cheap knockoffs of patented stuff.
@@chesshooligan1282 The patent office might be completely wrong, or you might be oversimplifying a tool you don't have, and haven't tried. Either way - climb safe with your tool of choice and have a good night.
The patent office is only doing its job, and they've probably made the right decision. My beef is with the patent laws. My tool of choice will probably be a SAKA when it becomes availabe and if the price is reasonable. Good night.
@@chesshooligan1282 the SAKA has been permanently blocked by Weaver, the SAKA mini is available now at climbinginnovations.com I made a followup video to this one explaining how that is possible a couple weeks ago on my channel. The mini does not have a rigid tether, but the same great ascender on it, love mine, simple and sweet.
Great job on this history lesson. Thanks to the originator of the work and the commenters that improved the detail even more with extra information on the history. The climbing of a rope is better with all the innovation.
Thank you for being the guy to do this video.
Appreciate the clarity, depth, and history.
Wyatt Spruck thanks Wyatt, always appreciate your comments on the forum, midwest gotta represent.
Free Fallin dontcha know?
Minnesota is dope!
Spot on! Brilliant and simple argument for the sake of diplomacy and innovation. Thank you for making this video.
Michael Philip Grauers thanks Michael!
This history was delightful. Thank you for your research. This video was really put together and edited really well. More of this.
Thanks for watching! I do enjoy a good story time.
You are a voice I'll always listen to.
Fantastic work Joel, nice piece of research!
EducatedClimber thanks Patrick!
Great history! Screw Weaver
This whole mess is just like a divorce battle. The only winners are the attorneys that walk away with the $$$. I'm glad I bought my SAKA before this all started. I love it.
Well Done! I didn't know the story but my SAKA works great...
GrouseHiker take care of it, could be a dry spell getting parts for it!
I've always been fascinated how many SRT techniques came by way of caving - thanks for going over this history.
Rope Walking systems were known as early as 1971. In the first issue of Nylon Highway (Feb 1974), Bruce Smith describes it in the article "Rigging the Floating Cam System", and says "The Floating System was proven to be the fastest ascending method available at Convention '71 Races ..."
Like the Big Shot patent, the essential claims involved are so minor compared to the body of knowledge and prior art that's being built upon. Really hope everyone can settle and move on quickly.
Nick Hatch that's great info, I didn't come across the 1971 reference, I need to look that up. I hope it all works out quickly, we don't need people afraid to make anything new because of patent land mines.
I sure am late to the gate here since this is a vid from 2018 but,,, I totally agree with everything you are saying with respect to this feud over the SAKA vs HAAS. I strongly feel that Mr. Mumford has contributed is so ideal for this tool that I'm upset to the point of boycotting Weaver products, which I do buy and enjoy, until this matter is finally resolved hoping that Weaver and Mumford come to an amicable solution that benefits both parties.
Thank you for the history lesson, I found it interesting. And thanks for the clever humor, you crack me up ;-)
Joe
Thanks for watching Joe, I hope they do too, mainly I hope Weaver learns to play well with others from all this expense they are causing.
Thank you very much for your work, very illustrative, awesome work!
Thanks Marco, appreciate you watching!
Thanks for the awesome video, great information. I’ve built both designs for myself with tid-bits floating around the tool bag, they’ll be coming for me next, lol.
mike8hunter watch your back man, the SAKA gestapo will get you, hahaha.
My Gibbs knee ascender worked well in 1973. This patent dispute is classic...and mutually destructive. Unless these guys relax and cross-license, only the lawyers will win.
Chuckles love it, no school like the old school. Hopefully these guys can put down the law guns and get back to the business of getting us all into trees.
So... I can’t believe I waited so long to watch this video after it stared at me for so long in my “recommended” column. This is very interesting for sure. I know Mike very well and have also kept up with Richard’s videos for years but never knew the timeline of the ascenders.
I believe that the HAAS Velox (haas 2) IS significantly different from the SAKA in the same manner the SAKA was significantly different from the HAAS 1.0. (I have a few patents so I’m fairly familiar with the lingo and jargon the USPTO uses and looks for)
It’s very interesting that this all took place when Weaver hired Mike and acquired his IP. I say this because I have found that the upper mgmt and staff at Weaver Arborist have been nothing but geniune and involved business people (as compared to those at the B word company).
Anyways, great video
Thanks for watching Dennis I appreciate it.This was my take on the story, I made a follow up video as things moved forward, it was made before Richard was finally awarded his patent, but you can watch it here ua-cam.com/video/AMnpeyf0Tec/v-deo.html climb safe!
Dido. I am 61 YEARS OLD I don't have that many years left of rope climbing I need all the help I can get. Rope climbing is hard on the finger joints so I am all ways looking for easier ways to access the tree tops.
the hard thing about patents in the real world is you have to defend them otherwise you lose the rights to it. so it results in lawsuits that might seem crazy. the company i work for sued the largest company in our space because they did use our patents. but like you suggest in the video, the smart decision was made to avoid a lengthy court battle where both of us lose AND a significant number of people worldwide are affected. They entered into a license agreement with us, we keep our IP, get a paycheck for innovating and they keep their business running no problem. Gotta find the win-win in the situation
Good video informative, many of us use the thing which we don't know how were made it.
Thanks for watching Victor!
A huge consideration, will Weaver do the right thing.
Any update on this? I noticed Richard is still selling the SAKA miniMax v2 on his site. I bought the mini max when this video came out just so I didn’t miss my opportunity to get one. Great video.
The lawsuit from Weaver is still ongoing, and Richard is still getting the bill for it, that's about all I know. I'm going to buy things from him every chance I get to support what he is doing.
Very good , I want a Saka
That was ace, first of your videos ive watched. Id love if you tackled X rings/friction rings debate...going right back😬
Mike Bryan oh man, that is a rat's nest with some real dirty deeds done. I have thought about it though.
Well stated truth well worth the watching!
Joel Phelps thanks Joel!
Educational and well I’m kind of lost for words.. I’ll just leave it like that, I’ve had lots of tree people talk about this on social media. I could just say that they’re very upset with Weaver. Like telling hundreds of people like myself to quit buying Garbage 🤷🏻♂️ Sad n now I know why 👍🏼 another great video
Joe
hillbilly Yo thanks man, unless you happen to be on the right forum at the right time there was no way to know all this backstory. I figured most climbers would have no idea why everyone was pissed off.
Free Fallin I had no clue but thanks to you and being open and honest about your videos and forming folks like myself who depend on folks like you I can answer questions that guys have and refer them to your video or I can just inform them because they are misinformed and they can do their own research but most of the time they’ll do one of two things either listen to me or look at your video and understand that you’re being honest about your research
hillbilly Yo love my saka 😎👍
Greg Brown Right on Greg I just happen to be taken lunch do you get photos on your phone I’ll send you a funny one if you do someone wasn’t paying attention oops broken fence 😳💩🤷🏻♂️ I was loading logs n herd a crunch 🤔🤔😶
Is there a video of the system you have made?
Always a great show. You do know that tree people are very territorial? Lol. Why can't we all just get along 🤔? I have the mini SAKA. I want to get the conversion kit.
Now is a good time to get the conversion kit, Weaver has already started to go after it. I just hope they figure out that industry dollars are going to come to them through innovation, not shakedowns.
@@FreeFallinTrees SMH....dang gosh darn people....
The Gibbs ascender has been around for decades, i still have one from the early 90's
Great ascender, I would love to have one of the old ones.
Anybody have any idea how I can get a new bungee for my knee ascender and how I can fix because is broke. Thanks I appreciate for any help.,"climb safe guy's "
Yes, go to climbinginnovations.com and you can order an extra bungee directly from them. Thanks for watching!
Saka Mini on sale now at Climbing Innovations. Here's a link to Richard's video about it: ua-cam.com/video/WtLFZm2kesY/v-deo.html
Patrick Miles - absolutely, cant wait to get mine. Richard is still knocking it out of the park!
Free Fallin Mine arrives tomorrow! Now if the damn Akimbo would come out in time for Father's Day, that would be great.
I wish, the latest I got from RE is sometime in the fall, with a few prototypes getting tested next month in work environments.
Well said
4 min in I'm like really enjoying the research !! yeah ..
Thanks, that was a couple of weeks of reading fights, threats, and arguments; followed by a couple more weeks digging into the real history of rope walking. I do love a good story though, it's fascinating to me the path inventions take before they land in my hand.
Free Fallin Do you put the history of rope walking systems into perspective I don’t read much I’m pretty much sure out on the tree world kind a guy. If I’m not running around almost literally with an O20T I’m chipping massive piles of brush. anywhere from 15 to 20 yards a day. A person like myself really appreciates your informative video.
@@mvblitzyo I'm glad you got some info from it. It's harder for me to get out and climb when it's 5 degrees outside so I am working on more history type videos now, one for making different rope eyes, and maybe one later on rope itself. Research keeps me warm.
Free Fallin super glad you are able to put together great content.
grande idéia , esse é o espirito dos escaladores de arvores !
Obrigado Ronaldo, é importante entender para onde vai o dinheiro. Eu agradeço por você assistir
Perdona, pero tenía entendido que la palabra JUMAR venía de la contracción del nombre del inventor: JUan MARtin.
Hola, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascender_(climbing)
Creo que Juan Martin es un escalador moderno, pero el Jumar fue inventado hace 60 años, llamado así por su fabricante Jümar Pangit, una compañía que a su vez lleva el nombre de los inventores de jumar Adolph Jüsi y Walter Marti.
También, gracias por mirar
Good on you for the history - Richard has finally one - he persisted - must say he is a saka for punishment 😁
Dad joke 😜
@@FreeFallinTrees or grand dad at my age
I finally bought me a SAKA mini max v2. Thats where we are today! And because of this video, I never even considered the HAASard..😂
Weawer can go and stuff their corporate greed to the place where the sun don't shine!
Rock on, I need to get a mini max 2, I use my mini every climb. Now that the lawsuit is settled, I hope they will get sold everywhere.
Is it really?? That's wonderful news!! Viva la resistance!
@@FinArborist it is great news from just a couple days ago. The court ruled that the mini max 2 did not infringe on Weaver's patent in any way.
so now here it is 2 1/2 years later, mr Mumford laid off most all of his team and now has reached a settlement with weaver. allegedly he will or has started to build again, now thru innovation it is called the saka mini /max. life is all about innovation, building a better mouse trap. it is way to expensive for big companies to innovate, there may be years of new designs before the final product comes to market. small companies (like climbing innovations) work long tireless hours /days/ years and as soon as they get a product ready to market get bought out by big conglomerates.
All true, I hope this mess makes other companies realize what a waste of resources and marketing image these frivolous lawsuits are. Innovation is what the market wants, I say fire the lawyers and get to work.
Kinda put me in mind of the Wright brothers accomplishing close to nothing for 15 years because they were too busy filing suits against Glen Curtiss for violating their “ownership of flying”.
Meanwhile, Curtiss was busy pushing aviation technology into the future.
Good comparison, and thanks for watching Rider!
The arborist community could learn from the software industry. Sell the parts seperately with open source instructions on how to self assemble.
Not a bad idea, I'm sure Weaver would sue anyway just for spite.
Excellent job with this. Shameful to think you can steal an idea essentially ,improve it...then sue Richard Mumford for basically perfecting it and including a sweet 'biner in the kit. This comes down to 'biner envy
Nathan Silveira it really is a shame, the good news is they were able to come to an agreement and the SAKA mini was just released! You can find it at climbinginnovations.com
Excellent news! I hope the terms benefit Richard more than the opposition. The thought of a guy that obviously cares about the work, the gear and the industry losing out doesn't sit well with anyone. The reply is appreciated ,as well as the video. I feel informed and entertained , mission accomplished haha , Thx man
Inventors and marketers seldom inhabit the same mind
This is true, it can be 2 different worlds. Thanks for watching!
There are comedy channels already. Extremely hard to watch the first 2 minutes and still zero info. bye.
Sorry, I thought this was a comedy channel. I'll try to be more mature.
I'm just baffled that the "idea" of attaching something to something else with a rigid strip of material rather than with a floppy strip of material could even be patentable. If it is, it shouldn't be, and I don't give a rat's ass how Microsoft started. In my opinion this "inventor" deserves, at most, a pat on the back and a thank you, not a wheelbarrowful of money. There are plenty of people on UA-cam that have similar ideas, and what do they do? They make a video about their idea or DIY gadget, get a few hundred thousand views, a few hundred "cool idea, bro" comments, and then they carry on with their lives. In any case, this is such a simple device that anybody can easily make it at home if they want to.
Funny, that's exactly what he did, he put up a DIY video, it's still up. Then a lot of people asked him to make it for them because it was not "a simple device" for some. So he made them. The stiff tether helps keep flop out of the system, I've tried both, it helps. If you want to have the opinion that his additions were no big deal, that's fine but last week the US Patent office disagreed with you and said that what he changed was significant enough to be a new device.
I never said it's no big deal. I said such simple ideas -- ideas that require no significant amount of ingenuity, experimentation, or research work -- shouldn't be patentable. The gadget is useful, but it's extremely surprising nobody had "invented" it before.
Did you know eBay got a patent for online auctioning and that's why they have a monopoly in that business? The patent is worth billions and billlions, but are you telling me any random fool wouldn't have come up with the idea a couple of months later if Pierre Omidyar, the eBay founder, had never been born? There's nothing we can do about eBay, but thank God we have the Chinese for the cheap knockoffs of patented stuff.
@@chesshooligan1282 The patent office might be completely wrong, or you might be oversimplifying a tool you don't have, and haven't tried. Either way - climb safe with your tool of choice and have a good night.
The patent office is only doing its job, and they've probably made the right decision. My beef is with the patent laws.
My tool of choice will probably be a SAKA when it becomes availabe and if the price is reasonable. Good night.
@@chesshooligan1282 the SAKA has been permanently blocked by Weaver, the SAKA mini is available now at climbinginnovations.com
I made a followup video to this one explaining how that is possible a couple weeks ago on my channel. The mini does not have a rigid tether, but the same great ascender on it, love mine, simple and sweet.