Doctor Who's WORST EPISODE EVER came out in 2006 - and it will always be the worst
Вставка
- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- Video edited by @ChannelPup
✔ SUPPORT ✔
Patreon: / councilofgeeks
UA-cam Membership: / @councilofgeeks
Paypal tip jar: PayPal.me/councilofgeeks
Ko-fi: ko-fi.com/verawylde
Amazon Wishlist: www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls...
✔ OTHER CHANNELS ✔
Break Room of Geeks / @breakroomofgeeks
Vera Wylde: / verawylde
✔ SHOP ✔
Merch: www.teepublic.com/user/counci...
My Book on Gender Fluidity: a.co/d/atfibBA (Amazon Associate link, commissions earned)
My Fantasy Novel: amzn.to/2SCxB8j (Amason Associate link, commissions earned)
✔ SOCIAL MEDIA ✔
Twitter: / councilofgeeks
Facebook: / councilofgeeks
TikTok: / verawylde1
Instagram: council.of....
Twitch: / councilofgeeks
✔ OTHER PROJECTS ✔
Council of Geeks Podcast (home of What the Frell & Jumpgate): councilofgeeks.libsyn.com/
✔ CONTACT ✔
E-mail: councilofgeeks@gmail.com
Mail:
Council of Geeks
PO Box 4429
St. Johnsbury, VT 05819 - Розваги
A playlist of videos covering the issues with the BBC and transphobic reporting: ua-cam.com/play/PLmWFOeT2jEofVIDW9X3OL7GqWuX3Dxopu.html
Welsh pronunciation tip: "Euros" is said like "eye ross".
(Well, the North Walians curve their tongue to pronounce "U", like the scandinavians do. But the South Walians don't bother with that and that's the easier valid pronunciation, so we'll stick with that.)
it's not "fear her" ??
Watching your first video... this situation is 2 years old and still unresolved?!? WTF?!?
I think Tory client media is the best term I heard for the TV/Paper in the UK.
Watched 20 straight minutes , of super detailed watch summary, ( unnecesarily detailed ) , without one reason the episode the episode is bad, nevermind the worst.
I hate this because its clickbait, it denies me the opportunity to choose.
You should say "Heres a detailed watch summary ... "
if the point was its the worst, you should state why in the beginning.
Because of the clickbait title, I have a false insincere reason for watching , one disintered in the content, until its fullfilled.
This cheats us both, because your watch sumary isnt bad: it just doesnt fullfill the tangent reason offerred. Oddly the more you talk about this episode, the better it sounds.
Rose: "He's your dad"
Toymaker: "Well that's alright then!"
“Well that’s all right then” has become a household staple. The amount of times it pops out of my teens mouth 😂…
@@BruhsCookieJar haha, I always look for opportunities to say it too 😂
My cousin used it in her history class for a meme. They are trans and, when the cis white teacher said "Hitler killed millions of jews", yelled out
"Well, thats alright then!" In the Toy Makers tone. Of course the school wont punish them since they are trans. They get away with soo many spicy jokes. But hey "thats alright then!"
I AUDIBLY LAUGHED
@AzguardMike
I am so confused by this comment. None of it makes sense to me
The action/words from Rose are understandable. The acceptance and framing of her words by the episode is not.
100% this
Rose, as someone without a father who yearns for one, would absolutely say this and not understand the full context. She doesn’t know how clinging onto a parent like Eddy would/could be harmful. The rest of the episode should be showing those kinds of consequences though. I mean, The Doctor knows how that looks by now. He’s been around humans too long NOT to know
Right. You'd think she know that not all fathers are like Pete. Hell, even Jason Kane's (Bernice Summerfield books & Big Finish) was every bit as sadistic as Tommy's
Exactly
As someone with abusive parents (also growing up queer in an incredibly homophobic family and under Section 28 in the 80s/90s in the UK) who has been re-traumatised a million times by people ‘pulling a Rose’ because “you only get one mum/dad!”, the strength of your rant did me the world of good. Thank you for helping people to recognise the problem. No matter what the kid does, it’s never ever their fault, or their responsibility to have to pander to or emotionally regulate their abuser. You don’t have to forgive in order to heal.
“you only get one mum/dad!” - .... Wel, they also got only one you. Where's their effort?
@@fnglert Good comeback! I shall try to remember that for next time instead of silently grinding my remaining teeth into stumps.
I'm so so sorry, I hope you are healing ❤❤❤ -An abusive victim as well
There's something I heard about Alcoholics Anonymous that I always liked: the step about making amends has a caveat on it. You're supposed to reconnect with the people you've hurt in the past and make amends _if you can do so safely_ (ie if you can do it without putting yourself or them at risk)
This issue is the other way around: people are telling the victim to reconnect with the abuser, but I think it needs the same caveat. You'll never have another mum/dad, and it's good to reconnect with them _if you can do it without getting hurt in the process_
And that's a tall order
@@Walesbornandbred Except Tommy wasn't going to stick with his abusive father until Rose told him to. If you're gonna splurge defences of this episode's horrifying ending all over this comment section like explosive diarrhea you could at least put some effort in.
It is in character for Rose, but Tommy should respond with "No he isn't. He's my father, but he hasn't earned the title dad." something along those lines anyway. Let it be a lesson for Rose about how a parent is more than a biological relationship. It would also work for The Doctor to say it, but it would be more powerful coming from Tommy. Obviously, The Doctor should be on his side.
The person who was supposed to be my father/dad never earned that title, I don't refer to him with those words, he is (sadly still) my mum's husband, my grandma's son, but never my father/dad, and for many years he has slowly beaten the possibility of ever becoming that out of me.
I've cut him out of my life, only still having indirect ties to him through other people, and having no contact whatsoever with him.
@@nienke7713 sounds like you made the best decision you could for yourself
And the Doctor should've said, "Rose, I get where you're coming from, but your dad wasn't an abuser."
The Doctor shouldn't be on either side. We don't need a Doctor who dictates the correct form for human relationships to take. May as well be a Christian if you want a space wizard telling you how to live your life. The part of Doctor Who where human characters have to figure out how to live with each other should always be something the Doctor stays out of.
Exactly. Easy fix. For Rose she lost her dad and wants him back. She doesn’t understand abuse. I actually really like this episode except for no one correcting her. Maybe I’ll write a short fan fic where the Doctor does correct her back in the TARDIS
As an abuse victim I literally did not realize rose was wrong because that is what has been normalized for me. 😶
I'm so so sorry, I hope you are healing. ❤
Yeah same here damn. I'm glad to revisit this with hindsight
I think that's probably what happened to mark gatis tbh
sameee always trying to save my parents
Exactly! I always hated it, but didn't know why, because the house seemed a little over-the-top, but accurate to my life experience. ❤
I think what also separates the idiots lantern from other morally gross episodes is that it has the such a higher chance of leading to actual real world harm. Nobody is going to watch kill the moon and change their view on abortion. Someone might watch the idiots lantern while wanting to leave an abusive situation but feeling guilty about it and think okay maybe I'll give it one more chance. That's the real issue with these narratives is that it plays into the insecurity of victims to keep them victimized.
Yeesh now that you mention it yeah that could happen..
Kill the Moon is a pretty good episode. Even if the message is a really in your face.
I didn't even realize Kill The Moon had that massage, I just liked the episode a lot.
@@DarknessTheNightFury Honestly I didn't either. If the message is intended it's very poorly executed. Honestly I liked the episode but I like a lot of silly goofy schlock. Not sure how I feel now after hearing about it - would have to watch it again.
That's what I was thinking.. on a grand scale I'm sure there are episodes that cause more harm in the Doctor Who universe but on a scale of how they could potentially affect the viewer this is the worst I can think of.
I like to think Tommy came up to him and went "here let me carry that for you to the station to make sure you're actually leaving :)"
And Eddie leaves, and when he writes where once used to be his home, Tommy silently burns the letter without opening it.
That's always been my interpretation. Tommy's not trying to get him to come home; he's making sure Eddie actually _leaves_ .
Yea same here. Tommy didn’t really stop his dad from leaving. I always saw it as him trying to get some closure before sending his dad off for good. Having the last memory of his dad a decent one.
Being through Tommy's position myself makes it hard to imagine the writer really understands abuse/trauma to write that ending.
Also having been in the position, I actually understand the position quite well.
Despite the abuse, there can also be a genuine worry over the wellbeing of the abuser.
Abuse isn't necessarily the absence of affection; rather it's made all the worse by the affection they can show between those moments.
I'm not saying the situation doesn't need to fundamentally change.
I am saying that a 'break' doesn't mean you can't still have empathy for the perpetrator, even if none was afforded to you.
Being unable to feel compassion or empathy for them only turns the same dehumanisation against them. This is often where victims frequently find themselves--I know from experience.
However, this is a sign the trauma still needs to heal.
It also further continues the cycle of abuse.
[Note: This isn't saying the victim is 'abusing' their abuser; they are simply at risk of falling into the same traps of dehumanisation and lack of understanding they suffered under for so long]
@gregcarmell8222 The Crimson Terror's handling of an Abusive parental relationship feels like a response to this episode.
Some writers just never have experienced that and just won’t understand. I know I don’t understand.
@@MarkHeathcliff-bf2im Gatiss had experienced something of this trauma in his relationship with his own father. His experience of this was an understanding that his father's homophobia came from ignorance rather than evil. We should be very careful of assuming that everyone has - and should have - the same response to trauma. Tommy's father was a reflection of a worldview that even in the early 50s was starting to be challenged - I don't think there's a problem with Tommy maintaining the relationship with his father to try and help him to understand that. It may well turn out that his father is incapable of adapting to the new world, and maybe that's the point when Tommy should sever all ties. Cutting a parent off can be the right answer, the problem with this episode is that because it's Rose arguing the contrary we end up feeling like the message is that it never is. But equally, it's not always the right answer, either.
@@chrispalmer7893 until Rose puts the idea in his head, Tommy has no intention of reaching out to his father. Maybe he would later; in which case he could try and find him (hell, his parents aren't even divorced yet, Rita and Eddie will need to remain in contact to finalize that, so Tommy will definitely be able to seek out Eddie later if he wants to).
The issue is that Rose should not have pushed the two of them together, it wasn't her place. And, as Vera and others have stated, granting that what Rose does in character, the show still should not have framed Rose's words and Tommy's action as good.
Worst part is Gatiss said he based it on his own relationship with his homophobic dad.
WOW! That just boggles the mind! Think of all the people who went through similar situations being re-traumatized by watching that ending: blaming themselves as a result. Just WOW!
I need to go into detail on this for fairness, but... I disagreed with her points because I absolutely would have grabbed dad's hand at the end, too.
@@ScreamingWyvern Fair enough, but for Tommy to not want to do that. And then for Rose to tell him to do it anyway because that's his dad. And the Doctor to add his support for this with his nod and smile sends the wrong message to the viewers. Especially those who may have been victims of abusers. So while I respect your feelings, I still think it sent the wrong message.
I was going to comment that the queer-coding makes the ending even worse, partly because of being written by a queer writer. This makes some sense of that, but it doesn't excuse it. I so appreciate Vera's righteous anger on behalf of abuse survivors
weird that this is how i find out gatiss is gay
Honestly, you can can Eddy a cartoon character all you want, but people have called my father cartoonishly evil, and he behaves remarkably like Eddy. We stopped going to church when I was about 10 because the new pastor confronted my father about punching my brother in the pews. These people very much still exist.
I hear horror stories all the time about such horrible people. It’s depressing
I've seen people in public, verbally abusing their loved ones and doing it in a crazy, over-the-top way. Cartoonish can be real sometimes.
@@hollyvanwye9294 yup! But that "sometimes" is part of the point. Eddy is a very accurate example of how abusers tend to act when they're at their worst. But Eddy seems to act that way all the time, and that's the part some viewers find cartoonish
One of the worst things about most abusers (as I understand it) is the way they swing back and forth between being nice and being nasty. It's why people stay with their abusers. "Oh he's so lovely most of the time. He doesn't really want to hit me, he only did it because I made him mad". People get gaslit into thinking it was their fault, thinking they "provoked" the abuse. That doesn't happen so much if he's abusive all the time
A villain being cartoonish doesn't make them at all unrealistic. People like to think evil is special and smart but evil people are also people and able to be dumb, even selectively.
@@douglaswolfen7820 an abuser under pressure (because, say, people's faces are disappearing and he's trying to hide the fact that he got rid of Grandma) rarely manage to keep the cycle of nice going.
Incoming rant about the part at the end where Rose makes the boy forgive his father instantly and reunites him with his abuser
Thanks for spoiling it for me. /s
It's not really a spoiler I think its been said before on the take two review
Umm, I'm pretty sure the son didn't forgive him and rose didn't say that. All she said was to walk with him. (And honestly if I was in that situation, I would do the same. Maybe it's just that I rather be somewhat kind if it's the last time I see someone, but I wouldn't be like "well, sucks to be you jackass!".)
That didn’t happen please stop spreading this bs
The fact that it is possible to interpret the end of the episode as Rose telling an abused child to stay with his abuser is part of the problem.
Rose: "he's your dad"
Tommy: "I'll trade him for a dead one"
I'm not sure if I've said this before or just thought it. If it was just Rose pushing the "better a bad dad than no dad" idea because of her own hang-ups, then that would be less problematic - not a free pass by any stretch of the imagination, but an understandable misguided in-character position. I completely agree that having everything else in the scene take Rose's side is what takes it from "oops" to "oh hell no!" levels of wrongness.
Oh absolutely. If they had the doctor counter what she said so that Tommy doesn't go after him rather than agree with her, it could've fixed the ending
It might be "in character" and a realistic response given Rose's circumstances, but it's up there with "let's broadcast an accurate method of creating home-made explosives" for being a considerate programming choice.
Another good moment the doctor says Mr connelly what gender is queen , Mr connelly says female and the doctor says and are you suggesting the queen does the housework , Mr connelly says well no , then the doctor says then get to it
I watched this episode as a teenager and I remember it gave me hope about my situation with my abusive mom (it wasn't really in my mind that much, but I remember how I liked it). As expected, that wasn't the reality. I broke off contact eight years ago and have no desire to return, because I know she won't change. And I am happy this way. I am free, I am learning that I am loved the way I am, and I can surround myself with people of my chosing and that help me come to accept myself. I honestly forgot about this episode and how bad the message is until I watched your video. It's so wild looking back to this now. He should have never been told (and even worse by another person using their authority over him!) to run after his dad. Thanks for making this video and also thank you for your message in the end.
Sorry for dumping this into the comments, I hope it isn't inappropriate. TV shows have an impact and there's teenagers like Tommy who are watching this and I think that's what makes all of us so angry about this especially :/
I broke contact with my abusive family 30 years ago. It saved my life. I have been able to be myself rather than who they needed me to be. I have been able to find amazing friends who are my chosen family and are everything I ever hoped family could be. I'm so happy for you that you have also freed yourself. X
The only kind thing I can say about this episode is that it highlights/demonstrates the cycle of abuse (which is increasing tension -> incident -> reconciliation -> calm or "down time" as Vera says -> rising tension -> incident -> etc, rather than the layperson/fandom definition of "person is abused who goes on to abuse others") really well without holding the audience's hand or holding up a whole bunch of flashing neon signs pointing at it. As for the rest, I hold the same opinion about "Idiot's Lantern" that Vera does.
I think the main theme of that ending is forgiveness. Does it portray it well? Absolutely not. I know I've thought about forgiving my abuser, but I've also had to think about would it be worth it? What would be the point? if the abuser feels bad and genuinely wants to change, and has taken steps to do so, is forgiveness earned? Do they even deserve it? The ending was too quick for the theme to really apply well, like you said, it's been less than a minute, that's not enough time for anyone to reflect and change. I think that's what Gatiss was trying to imply, but it didn't work at all.
It’s thankfully a time travel show so very feasible to depict a time skip
Sometimes forgiving people can be good for yourself but in the case of the idiots lantern (and many real life examples) forgiving can be harmful. By the way sometimes you can forgive someone for something but still cut them out of your life. I think it's an awful message to tell people to stay in abusive relationships
@@prettyoriginalnameprettyor7506 But is the episode really saying that the kid is going to stay with him or is it an amicable farewell?
The best revenge is to live well. I think that learning to forgive, over time, may have a restorative effect on the injured person, but forgiveness doesn't mean that you stick around for more! The important thing for the injured person to do is walk away from the toxic relationship and not look back.
@@prettyoriginalnameprettyor7506 YES I dong get why most people don’t understand this you can absolutely forgive someone and still not want anything to do with them it’s not an either or !
Vera, this sounds personal to you. You know what this situation is like. So do I. Thank you for pointing it out. I felt the same way at the end of this episode. I was screaming at the screen, “No, Tommy! Don’t go to him. Let the asshole go!”
I let the asshole go and have never regretted it. I had peace in my life ever after. Hope you did too.
It takes time for abusers to realise their mistakes - if they ever do at all. Maybe they get introspective when they realise that no one wants to be near them or maybe they hear things said on TV, radio etc often enough that it finally gets through their thick fucking skulls that "perhaps I was an arsehole", maybe they just get so old they don't have the energy for their crap any more or realise that what made them insecure/angry in the past isn't really important. Who knows? And if that does happen, it may be they'll one day acknowledge "I fucked up badly and treated you wrong"... but I don't think anyone should ever expect it to happen, let alone chase after the person and try to make that happen. The safest thing to do is cut ties and not allow them to be reestablished without some concrete indication that the person has changed for the better.
The Wire started off as a creepy and chilling villain, but quickly became an annoying 1 dimensional entity that screams "Hungry!" every few seconds. This villain had legs and could've been memorable for all the right reasons...instead we got something that was either irritating or just forgettable.
The ending of Tommy walking with his dad felt like a complete U-turn for the character, what they should've done is have Tommy say to Rose "Yes, he is my dad. But, that doesn't excuse his actions. The house will be quieter and a better place to live in without him." and the episode ends with Eddie walking down the street, alone.
It also felt out of character for her to suddenly be this reckless, like beforehand she was smart not to show her hand too early, but suddenly she screams hungry like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
Couldn't agree more. I also found the Wire to be completely irritating, especially during her defeat. As for your take on the ending, it's way better than what I have in mind. And imagine Tommy joining the Doctor and Rose for a toast to Eddie getting kicked out of the family household.
@@shinyagumon7015 umm because she was just about to win like like if tommy was slower the wire would've gotten what she wanted
@@chaserseven2886 True, but it could’ve been done a little better.
Even disregarding the abuse, it is NEVER the responsibility of the CHILD to save the PARENT. And then to add the abuse on top of that. Yeah, this episode is absolutely awful
This episode always pissed me off.
As someone who grew up with a wildly verbally abusive mother i just couldn't with this episode. Our mother never hit us, but the verbal abuse, manipulation, control, gaslighting, etc still took its toll. The abuse doesn't have to be physical to be irreparably damaging and deeply traumatizing.
My whole life I've heard that "but she's your mother" bullshit and it never stops pissing me off. Because yeah, she is, so why the fuck does it only go one way? "That's your parent" and somehow that means that we're duty bound to forgive them no matter what. But it NEVER goes the other way, it's never "but that's your child, so how could you do that?" "But that's your child, so why didn't you do better, why don't you try harder?"
And I don't blame Rose. I get that her own trauma surrounding losing her dad is closing her judgement. She's human, and SO young in the show, like 20 or 21 if I recall correctly.
The Doctor though, being like 900 years old and a lot wiser than Rose, and having seen so much shit, he should've known better. He should've never suggested Tommy reconcile with his father, or set Rose up to say what she did.
The tacit endorsement of this episode that you should always forgive your abuser, try to "save them" and that above all "that's still your parent" is bullshit.
Thank you for your rant. From someone who's no contact with my parents for good reason, it's much appreciated.
"But family!" is one of the worst things people say. No one should ever put the wishes of "the family" above their own needs. Like all relationships, family relationships need to be properly established and maintained. No one is entitled to any kind of relationship with anyone.
Family shouldn’t be an obligation because of blood but because of genuine care.
As a matter of fact "blood is thicker than water" is shortening of a longer phrase that completely changes the meaning. "The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb". I.e. chosen bonds are stronger/more significant than family bonds.
But it’s now been twisted to mean the opposite. And that’s wrong.
What passes me off is that the whole "But family" thing never goes the other way.
It's never "but that's your family, so how could you do that to them?"
It's always this idea that no matter what, you have to forgive your family for everything, but it's never that your family has a duty to treat you right in the first place
The biggest issue people who cut ties with family prematurely have is expecting the family to be receptive to their style of communication instead of trying to meet them where they are.
Whether it is blood relations or found family, you should always* try to make a good faith effort to understand each other with conversationS (plural) where you treat their opinions with respect while asking them to change for you.
After enough time has passed and they have shown no development in desire for growth or understanding you, it isn't worth the effort and you should reduce as much connection as is reasonable for you.
*with a steep sliding scale of tolerance for INTENTIONAL physical/emotional abuse
@@intergalactic92 that isn't true. The original phrase was "blood is thicker than water", that blood relatives are more important than found family. The longer version is newer and also is kind of silly? "Water of the womb" is so obviously just trying to twist the phrase to fit the opposite meaning. While I agree that family is more than biological relatives, and found family is so important, that's not what the phrase means.
I don't think it would even be difficult to rewrite the ending on the same hopeful note -
Tommy: .....should I go after him?
Doctor or Rose: It's up to you. He did horrible things to you and your mum, but if you and she are willing to give him another chance, that's your choice.
cue hopeful music as Tommy steels himself to go have a hard conversation.
It's still not perfect, but it gives Tommy some *agency*, agency that he did not have under his father's control. It's not a responsibility, it's a choice, and one that he would be perfectly valid to say "no" about.
I don't know. I understand the narrative desire to imply redemption, but they also didn't give Eddy any hints that Eddy has even the potential to be redeemable during the episode beyond "He is sad now." Maybe they should have just let him leave without fanfare, or had Rose confront *Eddy* and warn him that if he doesn't make it up to his son now he will never get another chance. Almost anything would be better than the ending they went with.
I wish they had the Wire feed off the Doctor and steal his other faces. Like Rose and the Doctor both get ambushed in the TV shop and while Rose loses her face, the Doctor doesn't seem phased until he sees Hartnell's face on the TV.
Or, if they did this episode today, you could even have the Doctor be the solution, where he overloads her with his many faces (which we know are more than we've seen on the screen)
That would've been an interesting climax. Effectively the villain biting off more than she could chew... could be interesting, but I'd have to see it to get an opinion on it
What hurts me is that given the time Tommy would likely have been physically abused as well as emotionally. Likewise his mum, there was little protection for women from their abusive husband’s. Material r@pe wasn’t criminalised until the 90s here in the UK, it wasn’t until the 60s that ‘no fault’ divorce became legal but it was still taboo for the woman up until the 80s. Sadly we British have a ‘put up with it, smile on, think of England, stiff upper lip’ etc etc. Even now inter partners abuse, child-parent abuse isn’t recognised unless extreme or physical.
It breaks my heart that when I watched this as a child I noticed a similarity between my father. 😢
This is ‘50s Britain and schools didn’t stop the practice of caning until the ‘70s/‘80s, so you’re probably right. Heck, I was born in the 2000s and my grandparents would threaten spanking. Can’t remember if that ever happened though.
As someone who had a biological father that was as bad as Eddy, and in other ways far far worse, the ending of this ep felt horrible to me. Like, I saw it coming and I hoped with every fibre of my being they'd avoid it but nope, they charged into it with gusto. And I also felt sorry for Magpie, a victim in all of this, that was eliminated just for the sake of not having an 'everybody lives' moment. He's the one pleading to be freed and he gets blinked out like a nothing. I wish there was a way for Magpie to have survived and maybe Tommy to take an apprenticeship at his shop. Stand on his own away from Eddy, yes it's still a big ask to put that on Tommy's shoulders but it's better than what we got. Two sufferers gaining strength in two very different ways to face the next day without regret.
While Idiot's Lantern is both repugnant and bad, I think that Kill the Moon and Kerblam! have the issue that they're morally repugnant on a systemic level instead of just an interpersonal one. I actually don't think Arachnids in the UK is morally repugnant, just bad and confused. Suffocation is, apparently, how spiders are disposed of during testing, but it just comes off as weird nonsense as opposed to humane termination.
Also if I had a nickel for every time The Doctor murdered spider babies through asphyxiation, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it is weird that it's happened twice.
Re the comparisons to other episodes (Kill the Moon, etc) - The Idiot's Lantern is also a problem because its message is more likely to actually negatively affect people's lives. Arachnids in the UK isn't going to make anybody think shooting something is worse than letting something suffocate to death, and even if it did, that's probably not a scenario they'll find themselves in. Kerblam has that same second problem - even if it does end up influencing someone's views on capitalism, they're probably not going to find themselves in a situation where that actually matters. The Kill The Moon abortion reading is probably the closest to influencing someone negatively, but due to it being a confused allegory (intentional or not) rather than a depiction, "we should be against abortion" probably isn't the main takeaway from Clara choosing to save the Moon (and then it laying another egg so everything's ok). Instead, most people are going to think it's just a bad episode. And that's the case for all these: there's a technical problem with the writing, so that's what's criticised more. The message becomes unimportant, and even when it's not, it's likely treated with more scrutiny like the rest of the episode.
Meanwhile, Tommy's situation is something many abuse victims WILL likely be in - the choice to stay in contact with the abuser or to cut them off. The main takeaway here IS that the first option is positive, and has a much higher chance of influencing an abuse victim to stay/get in touch with their abuser than say Arachnids in the UK has to get someone to make a spider suffocate to death. And there are no technical writing flaws or other dimensions to it to balance that out.
Great video!
The thing is for those of us who experienced this type of toxic abusive environment, this was the reaction when we told people! We were told, oh they just can't communicate, oh we miss understood, oh but he's a good man in public, he's just teasing, he's just kidding, don't be so sensitive. My friends said those things! They were roses age. The difference is their parents loved them. I completely agree with what you said, but I also think a mirror needs held up here that that is true to the real life story. The Dr should have said something different, but roses lines were spot on
Incidentally the cartoonish display of his abuse also leads into this point, because its so over the top you can't miss it but people still take his threats as jokes. That's so close to the bone
This same crappy message is also why I ended up hating the new Color Purple movie after I'd been totally on board for most of it. The movie literally says that any abuse victim who doesn't forgive their abuser and become friends with them will go to Hell. Maybe that's true to the original book, I haven't read it, but I definitely don't remember it in the Spielberg film, and you'd think anyone adapting the story now would know not to include it.
@Rmlohner It's unfortunately part of the Original novel.
It's the usual issue that comes up when the topic of 'forgiveness' comes up because it's a word that means different things to different people. To some it means 'repair the relationship to what it was'. To others it's about not being bitter about the person anymore, and the repairing of the relationship is something called 'reconciliation', which is not necessary (and often impossible). And then others say that it doesn't matter what the definition of forgiveness is, because people have a right to not forgive and that their anger is useful and necessary to them.
It's a thorny topic, for sure.
From what I remember of the book, Celia did eventually make her piece with Mister but that was after she'd threatened to cut his ass six ways to Sunday for keeping her sister's letter from her and after he brought her sister and kids back to her.
@KariIzumi1 Considering how He tried to rape her Sister, I still feel Celie was too forgiving of him.
Idiot’s Lantern: Second Turn
3rd, there was 1 review before the overview.
Idiot's Lantern: The Final Rant
Before seeing the video I am cautiously disagreeing with open to changing my mind once I learn which specific episode and your reasoning. But for now I think the worst Doctor Who episode ever is the one where the moon is an egg
Kill The Moon isn't even the worst episode of that season, the actual worst episode of that season is the one where the Doctor tells millions of people to stop taking their meds.
It's almost certainly a video about Idiots Lantern. She has a few videos getting REALLY angry about it lol she definitely convinced me
Idiot’s Lantern. Rose telling a young boy to go back to his abuser just because “he’s family”.
@@artisanstudios180 Ah, c'mon. Love and Monsters is waaaaaay worse than Idiot's Lantern, and as for the worst EVER, that has to be Orphan 55!
RTD wrote the worst episode ever, Chibnall said "hold my beer."
The moon being an egg isn't the worst but it's definitely among the stupidest episodes which I think should be a different category of episodes. But I think some of the episodes that deserve the title of "worst" are, like the Idiot's Lantern and The Forest of the Night (which have been mention in this thread), those which not only have bad storytelling issues but have outright dangerous messages to tell its audience ("go back to your abuser" "your meds aren't actually helping! Stop taking them!"
TW/CW: ABUSE
Thank you so so much for being so goddamn angry about the abuse "but he's your dad" BS that they wrote in, as an abuse victim who has fully cut off my entire (extended) family from 21 years of abuse (I'm 21) causing many issues including C-PTSD, as well as having been in a extremely abusive relationship that thankfully ended a few months ago. I have to go to the supreme court in my state to appeal a deeply flawed and biased domestic violence protection order being denied because "they're your parents and I'm a parent so I understand 🥺" BULLSHIT. It's just caused a lot of issues and when people talk about parents being abusive, if they change the word parent to partner, people seem to understand, whereas if it's your parent, that somehow makes it okay?!! So again, thank you so so much, it is refreshing to hear 😅❤
No Vera, why would you put yourself through this again!!!???
"Is his son too good to do the work that his old man does?"
If you'd asked my dad that question, his answer would have been "YES!" He absolutely didn't want me to end up like him. Then again, he also knew (or claimed to know) Jamie Foreman's father, back when he was involved with the seedier side of life in London.
Speaking of, while I haven't seen a massive amount of Jamie Foreman's work, in this he is very similar to his role in "Law and Order: UK", in which he played a bigoted Metropolitan PC who left a gay colleague alone to die rather than render aid.
You're completely right! That was an absolutely horrendous ending to an already crappy episode! Making it far the worst Doctor Who episode.
I mean I think there’s some worse episodes but it’s definitely not good and yeah the ending is awful like burning your toast so much it catches the toaster on fire
As someone who has gone no contact with their parents, this analysis is spot on. Sadly, in real life, I've heard Rose's advice far more often than I've heard support for what I've done to protect myself.
Me too. I hear you sister.❤
It's a shame that The Master isn't The Doctor's secret sibling, because then The Doctor might be aware of the fact that Just Because Someone Is Related To You, That Doesn't Mean They're Not A Monster.
He is his brother (Planet of Fire)
@@timleader3253 They never actually said that in planet of fire-JNT said that it was allegedly scripted that way, but that didn't make it into the episode. It's funny that the doctor was far more willing to kill the master back when that was still on the table though lol
37:01 …holy shit, uncensored Vera, that’s how you know she’s pissed
I was just kind of listening to Vera's ramble while flipping through some exam revision notes, and both of the uncensored f-bombs completely caught me off guard
I 100% agree with the point about the ending. If it wasn't for the ending it would be another meh episode from RTD1 era
This is one of the only episodes of the show where the ending completely tanks the rest of the story.
Until those final few minutes this one is…whatever I guess, but that last scene makes me genuinely angry. If I could wipe one episode out of existence I’d probably make it this one.
The ONLY good thing about it is probably the actors ... for the most part. Sometimes it gets too much for some characters. However, for the most part it works.
The idiot's lantern has a really really bad ending, but at least I don't feel that it is the core of the episode... Unlike Kerblam and it's defense on Amazon abuse.
Probably unintentional, but it ended up being the core point of the whole themes, the doctor praising space Amazon, showing as villains those who fight for workers rights... And the whole paroding how some real people leave messages on tickets to have help.
Kerblam is a tough one for me to ignore.
@@zactyl8387 Kerblam does not defend Amazon abuse and is also a much much much much much better episode than this one.
Are you talking about 73 Yards?
@@ThePonderer
It portrays those who fight for worker's rights as the villains of the story, portrays the head of the company as incompetent at best but who actually manages the company and it straight up parodies how real people who suffer look up for help through messages in tickets.
It may not have been the intention, but everything in the story goes against workers needs and cleans the hands of those in charge.
The worst part is that you are right, it was an enjoyable episode, one of the highlights of the season even... If the core of this story wasn't a message against workers rights.
No, I'm not sitting comfortably, I'm actually standing here eating custard that was supposed to be the filling of the pastry my mother's dog ate, but thanks for asking.
For me, it's really the Doctor's handling of it, like you said, and the show's framing of it at the end. Rose only saw Eddie in that one scene before she got defaced, and that was enough to conclude he was a controlling ass, but the Doctor knows more about what he's like. Then again, as smart as he is, he isn't always the best at human psychology. Just last iteration, he took Rose to see the end of the world as a fun introduction to the TARDIS. They weren't the people to be advising Tommy in that moment. I wonder how it would be if the show revisited those characters at a later point in their lives, examined the mistake it had made at the end. I don't necessarily think it should, but it might be interesting.
The thing is, it would've been totally possible for the characters to act this way (because as you pointed out, it is in character) and still not make this point to the audience.
They just had to use some eerie music when Tommy goes up to his father.
But I guess it would've dampened the happy ending of this episode...
Great Video.
I can't describe how much I hate this trope of "you have to forgive them they are your blood relative" "blood is thicker than water" and other BS.
You described it so good with the random DNA. You don't have to forgive them. It's apways annoying when media resorts to this.
Media doesn’t seem to like admitting that sometimes things go wrong and stay wrong. Additionally it’s probably a leftover of “traditional values”
I have to admit i can sympathize with Rose in this episode. I had a strained relationship with my Dad. It wasn't abusive but we were different people so we didn't mesh like he and my brother did. He also died when i was a young teen so we never had a chance to grow. There were mental health issues with my dad as well.
When i was Roses age i could see myself offering the same advice even though i know how abhorrent it is now that i am mid 40s.
I can definitely understand why this is your least favourite episode due to it messaging.
I remember watching this in 2006 and thinking how wrong it was that the son was encouraged to forgive and “fix” his Father.
And what about the Mother and her decisive action to protect herself and her family? Shes’s “allowed” because she’s not blood related to her husband, but her son doesn’t get that freedom because genetics?
When I watched this as a kid, I never really gave it a second thought. I trusted that the doctor would make the morally right choice, and that what he and rose were telling the kid to do was the right thing to do. If placed in the same position as that kid, it terrifies me to think how this episode could have influenced my thinking.
As a victim of sibling abuse I totally agree with Vera.
Throughout my life my elder sister was incredibly abusive to me. Now I have nothing to do with her, I'm happier than I've ever been.
To be fair, monsters yelling "HUNGRYYYYY" is typical Dr Who, they've been doing it since the Classic days. But yeahhhh they had a chance to say something about abuse and seriously failed
I think this episode needed a different ending cause it just leaves a very sour taste in your mouth with Rose encouraging Tommy to go to his abuser dad. I get she doesnt have a dad anymore but its a really bad message to end the episode on.
Ending aside its a meh episode with a annoying antagonist in a tv and a little dodgy green screen on the tower with Tennant (it happens just thought to note it). Its placement in-between the big two parters of the series doesn't help either. While i find fear her another bad episode its still got more to it than this and actually deals with abuse and trauma better with the drawn dad.
I think the story could have worked more by combining the character of Eddie and Magpie. If Eddpie was a proud business owner who feels guilty that his business and livelihood are underwater and also feels emascualated by his partnership with the wire, his nature becomes more foregrounded, and maybe the episode would have forced him to have properly atone (or just for him to die, as the relatively blameless Magpie did).
That could have worked. Would have married the plots together better at least.
Had that been the case, it would've made both the Wire and Eddie/Magpie more nuanced and less irritating. Much more straightforward with better character development and plotting.
Good grief, this pulled up some feelings. I remember this airing when I was 15 and I'd recently gone no contact with my dad. I couldn't understand how they forgave his dad back then, and yet here I am, over a decade later, in an endless cycle of no contact, reconnect, dad does his usual, and I go back to no contact. Saying 'he's your dad' as if it means we owe them another chance is an awful message to end the episode on, but wow do I relate to that stupid platitude pulling me back in.
Eddie was a vile bastard whom had to be excessively controlling by verbal abuse. My alcoholic father was such a man which didn't help me as I was being bullied every day at school and then had to go home to be bullied even more by my dad. These days my life is shit and I just "survive". I have nothing to live for.
She is also doing a parody of Listen with Mother an iconic British children's show. The catchphrase Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin is from that.
This is the essence of being a whovuan. Hating and loving the show in equal measure.
When I usually see people complaining about the "worst episode," it's usually _Love and Monsters_ that I see personally. It's quite refreshing to see someone rag on _The Idiot's Lantern,_ which grated on my nerves to no end.
There's also one person who keeps claiming that "Doctor Who Has *_Just_* Died" I mean, yeah, the _Doctor_ can regenerate when mortally wounded but I didn't think that extended to the *show* itself. But apparently, it's true, according to a certain UA-cam critic: the show has *_Just Died_* every. single. episode. he reviews.
Yep, Rose has major daddy issues, but the Doctor should have known better.
I saw 2006 and I was ready to defend my favourite ugly little duckling, Love and Monsters, but that's just because Idiot's Lantern is so bad I completely forgot it existed and I just finished rewatching Tennant earlier this year. Looking forward to hearing the video !
I'd rather watch an episode where someone defends 'love and monsters'.
I'd completely disagree, but it would at least be entertaining.
@travishiltz4750 speaking as someone who doesn't like love and monsters, I will say it did add some good character development to Jackie and we got to see what she's like when the Doctor isn't around.
@@SnowLily06 There are some good ideas, lots of ELO references and a couple nice character moments, but it is ruined by RTD not being able to get out of his own way.
When either he or Moffat start to go 'Oh, I am so clever!!' it usually ends badly.
lol this was exactly my reaction to the thumbnail too
One of the common themes throughout the show, not just in this episode, is that everyone gets saved or everyone can be saved.
The Doctor legit thinks everyone can/should be saved.
It doesn’t mean he’s right. It doesn’t make this a bad episode though either. It’s a character flaw of the doctor and if there aren’t flaws than he’s not much of a character.
I don't know if I want to frame the belief that most people can be saved as a flaw. It's certainly can be in certain contexts but I'd say it's more leaning towards a virtue. Also, wouldn't say the Doctor thinks everyone can be saved (I mean he's pretty much gonna kill the Wire by wiping the tape) but there is definitely a chance for those with the capacity for change.
@@defrostedrobot77 he’s rebooted the entire universe and reversed death across all of time and space.
He’s got a savior complex. Generally considered to be a flaw.
This absolutely follows through to Dot and Bubble. It is the evidence that Russell has possibly not grown and learned as much as many had hoped. Sure, maybe everybody CAN be saved but not everybody WANTS to be saved, and wants to be saved by you.
@@cascade421269 Vera's point was that even if Rose (and by your extension, the Doctor) are acting in character in this scene, the responsibility for framing the scene lies with the writer and director.
@@defrostedrobot77 As someone who believes this, definitely a flaw.
This episode is disturbingly relatable for my experience and I never noticed until I saw your earlier reviews of this episode a few years back. I saw this episode when I was 14 in a abusive place in my life and have since not realized how the toxic idea of trying to save my abusers has been engrained in my mind. Thank you for the video ❤🎉
As someone who's dealt with abuse, I 100% agree with your reasons for disliking this episode
I always loved this episode because of the parallels with the Olympic Games episode, and I remember I haven't read this ending as problematic because he was out of the house so the power dynamic got changed and ultimately it's grown-ups responsibility (boy's mother in that case) to keep it that way. It's definitely simplistic and cartoonish (the whole episode is) and reads like Gatiss tried to put a nice bow at the end and make everybody happy for the "kid show".
I don't super often watch this channel because I haven’t been big into doctor who anymore for almost a decade now, but when I realised what episode this was about I was intrigued because I always remembered this episode with vaguely positive feelings. I even liked the ending as a kid, because the framing you mentioned with the hopeful music gave me the hope that everything was gonna be okay.
Watching this video now I have a new distate for the episode, because I've recently gone no contact with my father and this hope that everything might turn out okay if I just tried one more time is such a poisonous thing to hold on to. Fuck this episode, truly.
Maureen Lipman cast perfectly as an evil monster in Doctor Who.
I agree, it's just a pity that the script ruined what was so great about the character.
@@Elwaves2925Um... I don't think you quite get the joke?
@@jmpjjacobs4829 It seems like a straightforward compliment to her acting to me. Care to enlighten me please?
@@Elwaves2925 I think it was a reference to her political opinion in regards to the Israel-Palestine conflict, and a double entendre of her being a "perfect evil monster". Might be reading to much into that though, if you respect her as an actress that's perfectly valid as well 🤗😅
@@jmpjjacobs4829 Sounds like the only role Lipman should ever play is Margeret Thatcher.
Thatcher would definitely be an Anti Palestine Bitch.
If anyone's curious to experience the single worst Doctor Who story out there, pick up *'Exile'* from Big Finish. Nothing the TV show's ever done even comes *close.*
And then maybe check out *'Sympathy for the Devil'* to experience one of the best. It's from the same audio range ('Unbound' -- basically, Doctor Who "What If" stories) which just so happens to feature one of David Tennant's first performances, ever -- from before he was cast as the 10th Doctor, even.
I honestly believe that Gatiss thought this was a happy ending. Abuse is a funny thing. I clearly remember thinking that if my dad could just be taken down a notch and could stop drinking, we had so many shared interests that we could be good friends. My brother and sister had it worse; as far as they could see, the problems all started because of me, so they just wanted their old dad back. You know to walk on eggshells, you know to be quiet, because anything you say or do will lead to a verbal beatdown, but yeah: if I thought, at Tommy's age, Dad had been humbled and I could reach out to "the real father" who had to be hiding somewhere in there. He got me into computers, he introduced me to fantasy, there had to be something somewhere. I appreciate the thought that the dad in the episode was cartoonishly evil, and I completely understand where you're coming from, but as a 50 year old who remembers ten years of that father, I would have written it the same way.
It's one thing for you, or the character (in this case Rose; Tommy didn't actually seem to feel that way), to feel that way. It's another for the show to frame it that way. You're probably right that he saw it as a happy ending, but that's the problem. It isn't. I'm a strong believer in people's ability to change and in forgiveness, but it's a lot of work to get to that point, and someone in this situation where, yes, he was kicked out, but nothing has fundamentally changed and his victim is reaching out immediately after is rarely going to do that work.
I guess this serves to show how important it is to be self-aware when writing fiction.
I would have enjoyed an alternative version where Tommy is hesitant, Rose tells him she would, and the doctor insists that it's his choice but not his reponsability. If I wrote the scene I would then have him choose not to go, but at least even if he did go you wouldn't get the sense that the meta-narrative suggests it's his responsibility.
I can understand why the show wanted to frame Tommy going to Eddie at the end as a positive thing, David Tennant has a very consistent theme of no one is beyond redemption (he does after all try to redeem The Master AFTER he has slaughtered at least 10% of the human race). I get why they want to imply that Eddie ultimately will be redeemed... but god damn, Tommy is not the person they should have used to do it. At the very least, if they are going to use Tommy, and even allowing for Rose to stay in character with her daddy issues, have Rose tell him something like, "don't write him off completely, he may just come around someday." We can still see that Rose is projecting her desire for her father to come back onto Tommy, we still get the message that no one is beyond redemption, even Eddie could come around some day, AND no one is putting it on Tommy to be the one to fix his dad.
Thank you for the video, Vera!
Watching this episode for the first time as a teenager (and still in the closet), the behavior of Eddie (Tommy's father) did come out as very toxic initially. However, after he did reveal that he want to send away "faceless" Grandma out of shame, and not out of fear, I did finally realize: Eddie is truly disgusting! I will also admit that, at the time, most of the depictions of abuse did fly over me because I was still holding to the notion of "blood-related relatives just want what is best for you, not matter how abusive their behavior is towards you" (*urf!*).
The big problem with this episode is: the people involved on producing it did probably not experience abuse by parents and relatives in general. It seems that they were trying to speak about a very serious situation from an external perspective. And the ending, where Tommy (the victim) tries to reconcile with his father (the abuser) immediately: the episode is trying to have its cake and eat it too. "Let's send the abuser away, but let's be superior and try to make peace with them." That is bullsh*t! I definitely believe that an abusive person could change, however they must want it and take the first step first. They must come to the realization of why their behavior is harmful by themself. Any ostracism they suffer for that is entirely their fault. And regardless how much the abuser wants and does to repair their victims, at the end, it is still the choice of the victims to forgive them or keep any contact with them. Something which I did experience very closely multiple times: I really hate the discourse of abusers begging for forgiveness and asking their victims to take them back under the promise of changing. First, it is literally rewarding bad behavior. And, second, they expect to return to a status-quo situation without abuse which did never exist in first place. And doing it so, they will just enact more abuse again. That is a cycle of abuse!
For decades I thought my mom was like the woman in this episode, afraid to stand up to my abusive step-father. One day she mentioned that I left home so I could drop out of school.
I was floored. I _ran away_ from home because my verbally abusive step-father crossed the line into physical violence.
"But you weren't _really_ hurt, though." 😳
The fuq? She _literally_ couldn't imagine that ignoring physical violence in her home was the reason I left. Not only that, she _told_ people I was just a selfish kid who wanted to drop out of school.
We do not forgive abusers. We do not reconcile with abusers.
They victimized us. They deserve what they get.
Sounds like a miserable way to live.
@@yurisei6732 It was.
@@yurisei6732 you seem very concerned with people not forgiving their abusers.
@@clubafterlife I'm annoyed by the complete trampling of nuance and media literacy in the social media age. There's a psychological concept called "Theory of Mind", which develops around age 4 in humans, and describes the ability to understand that other people can have different knowledges and experiences. A lot of the people in this comment section are demonstrating a lack of this ability.
@@yurisei6732 i mean, I too studied psychology in high school and am aware of theory of mind and Piaget's (likely influential) work. But it's pretty ironic to smugly accuse abuse victims of lacking ToM when you seem to lack the ability to understand why they feel differently to you.
the real horrible bit of this episode is child viewers of the show, the core audience, getting told it's okay if your dad beats you and you should stay with him because he's your dad
Kerblam does have the issue the computer kills someone to reveal the villain (even though it wasn't needed, since the Doctor got the message from his reaction and didn't need to see an innocent woman die) and it's never addressed. I hate that episode.
Several thoughts: 1) Can we also tack on the fact that 90% of the shots in this episode are dutch angles? That's one of the worst things a director can do.
2) @CouncilofGeeks your discussions of this episode (including this video) have helped me to understand what abuse is, though there's still a lot I'm unclear about; do you happen to know any further resources for anyone who would want to know more?
3) I agree that the worst episode came from 2006, but I think it aired about four weeks later
4) This video makes me consider changing my choice for worst episode ever
5) Given that there are script editors, and Davies himself also talks about editing most other writers' scripts in general, I wonder who actually wrote the ending, and who made Eddie so undeniably abusive, and if they were the same person.
6) I swear I read an article with one of the Doctor Who writers saying Kill The Moon is not an allegory for abortion, but for the life of me I cannot find it again. Berenstain Bears effect.
7) Great video, btw
Ah yes, the Idiot's Lantern, or as I call it, Little Electronics Shop of Horrors.
"Little Electronics Shop of Horrors" should've been the official title. "The Idiot's Lantern" just doesn't make any sense, despite it being suggested by a certain transphobic writer.
Why write a "forgiveness" for Eddy? My guess is someone in production felt called out and wanted to feel better about themselves.
yeah, when Rose said to Tommy, "he's your father!" It felt awful.
Thank you for this video because it helped me actually see deeper into this episode and the dynamics presented.
I really hope we get to see Mark Gatiss' planned sequel to 'An Adventure in Time and Space' that covers the troubled production of Trial of a Time Lord.
To this day, I still don't understand why people put Acharnids in the UK (we all have that friend who's gung ho about animal rights and won't let you kill the spider inside your apartment but won't help it if it's hurt because they're scared and don't want it running around) in the same category as The Idiot's Lantern (it's your responsability to make your abuser change) or Kerblam! (capitalist exploitation is normal and the only thing that will ever exist so don't fight it otherwise you're the villain)
While it may seem like ridiculously not proof-reading the script to have the business close for a month and only pay the employees two weeks off, it's sadly all too credible for late-stage capitalism to do something like that.
(hi if you read this!) I think theres also a point to be made about Doctor leaving Rose behind to persue the police; Rose has been with the 9th for his whole run, and now this is a quarter of the way with Ten. The Doctor knows how competent Rose is and how capable she is of actually helping and solving problems (also why shes one of my favorite companions, she actually gets shit done!)
"What if the abuser felt bad afterwards and regretted their decision? 🥺"
Good! Actions have consequences don't they?
When I was young and first saw this I saw Tommy walking with his dad, I saw it as him walking with and maybe talking with him as he goes to the train station to see him off and never see him again.
Let’s just say things have happened in my personal life I now do not agree with Tommy being anywhere near his dad for a while
Personally, I hope Tommy joins UNIT and becomes too busy to ever see his Father again.
@@nekusakura6748I don’t think we need a Tommy big finish box set
@@LCBK I know. It's just a Head canon I have in mind that keeps him away from his Awful dad.
The only episode I would have put into the same conversation as _The Idiot's Lantern_ as far as moral fucked-upness goes, is _Journey's End_ .
As a Tumblr user whom I can sadly no longer find wrote about _Hell Bent_ : one of the vanishingly few good things that episode did is establishing that wiping someone's mind against their will -- essentially, to use a Sci-Fi term, Mind Raping them -- even if it is to save their life, is, in fact, NOT a good thing to do.
And even then, while "Journey's End" does a morally repugnant thing at the end, it's also a sci-fi thing that has no direct applicability to real life. "The Idiot's Lantern" has no such excuse.
@@ospero7681 Ehhhh....... Euthanasia exists. I.E. the Right to Choose Death.
@@ospero7681 Also I might add that, for as messed-up as the end of "Journey's End" is, the existence of the 60th anniversary specials at least means that awful moment was ultimately counteracted. "The Idiot's Lantern" has never been followed-up on in any way, meaning that ending is, as far as the audience is concerned, the final word we get with these characters
@@christianwise637 An excellent point, and one I fully agree with.
Now, here is the REAL question: if we had the choice, would we WANT _The Idiot's Lantern_ to be followed up on, so that its fucked-up ending (at the very least) can be attempted to be rectified; or do we want it to stay buried in the past forever, so that they don't get the chance to screw things up even further?
I can understand were Rose is coming from on her view of the Dad. She clearly led a very sheltered and abuse free life and lost her dad so she is naïve to the situation. That Said I see ZERO EXCUSE FOR THE DOCTOR NOT CALLING HIS ABUSIVE ASS OUT! Even IF the relationship could in some way be repaired it is completely moronic to think the dad learned his lesson in less than one minute! Let alone that it is the son's responsibility to "FIX" the situation!
I didn't find Eddie to be a caricature or cartoonish at all. His performance was over the top at times but was otherwise very believable. I get the feeling that they amplified some of the abuse to make up for the abuse they couldn't show. You get the impression that he absolutely DID hit his wife and son off camera.
His attitude was very prevalent at the time. Corporal punishment of wives was illegal (since 1891) but caning children at school was still legal at the time and parents smacking their children is STILL legal in England (even though it is banned in Wales and Scotland) hence the "You should beat it out of him" line, that sort of talk was very common.
We also have to remember that homosexuality was not just frowned upon, it was actually illegal. Just remember what happened to Alan Turing. This is why the implication that Tommy is gay would be so damaging to Eddie's (imaginary) status, not just being known in the community as the father of a gay man but the father of a criminal.
But yes, getting Rose to IMMEDIATELY push Tommy back to his abusive father solely on the basis that he is related to him is abhorrent. Letting him walk away would not have ruled out the possibility of future reconciliation at some point, after a great deal of time and healing had taken place and once Eddie had shown sincere regret and evidence of change. But that would have been Tommy's decision to make.
I actually love this episode. I liked the villain and the premise. The ending I didn’t quite think about. I thought it was about getting to say one final goodbye to someone to end on a good note even if they’re horrible. It never really struck me that the message was ‘forgive your family members’. The ending is quite weak in that respect but it’s still one of my favourite episodes
I appreciate you making this video because my Dad was both physically and mentally abusive to me for my entire childhood. I still have to consciously fight the programming he put into my mind which was all lies. There's no telling how being away from him would have helped my mental health. Did he ever say I'm sorry? Never. His justification for his actions was that his father treated him much worse. WHAT? Then you should know how it feels dummy! Oyyy. Anyway thanks for pointing this out. I remember enjoying the episode till I saw him go back to his Dad at the end which infuriated me. And he even offered to help his Dad by carrying his bag...UGHHH!!! Seriously?
As a small child, I watched this episode. My parents were exactly like the two here. My mother was more complacent and emotionally abusive as well, but my father definitely refused to even loosen the reigns he demanded to have on the house. This episode further cemented in my child brain that "Oh, so I do need to try and get over it. My parents are good people deep down, I just need to bring it out of them." Now, let's not get it twisted, this episode didn't ruin my life. That message was and still is very prevalent in popular media because "blood is thicker than water." I just wanted to share my experience with how this perpetuates the cycle of abuse. It's not an okay thing to do
As atrocious as that was, I think they could've saved that ending. As you said, it DOES fit Rose's character. So have her say that. But here's how it could've been salvaged. Take out the Doctor encouraging her. And after she says that, have him interject. "But maybe not now. I do believe people can change. But it's not on you do help him do that. It's on him. You're angry right now. Be angry. If you see he's put in the effort to change down the road, reach out if you feel like you can. Give it time. This doesn't have to be the end, but that's up to him. He needs to realize what he's lost. Maybe he will and he'll make it up to you. But until then, live your life. He's not your responsibility." I think the Doctor stepping in and saying something like that could absolutely save the ending and send a much better message. Cause it does fit Rose's character due to her issues to say that. It's very realistic for people who lost a parent to project that onto other's along the lines of 'some people didn't have a father, you should be grateful that you do, no matter how awful he was'. It's awful but it's realistic. So have the Doctor step in and counter what Rose said, validate the boy's anger, and advise him to not go to him and try to save him.
I always hated this episode. Eddie reminded me so much of my (at the time of first viewing, not yet) ex and the "loudness means I'm right" stance he took. But the tears your anger brought me were so damn good to shed. Thank you for being so upset at this. I hope it doesn't come from a personal place, but I fear that it does. If so, I hope you are healing from it.
Me: I really don't understand what the issue with this is
Me getting to the forgive scene: oh, I've straight up repressed this ending because it hit too close to home. Go off! Worst episode ever 100%!!
Orphan 55’s vilification, monsterizing, and “other”ifying of climate refugees will always take the cake for me.
I think if any episode could be considered "the worst", it's the Fifth Doctor story Warriors of the Deep. Not because it's a bad episode, but because Michael Grade, director of the BBC in the 1980s, cited that episode specifically as his reason to axe the show.
It's a testament to the show's popularity that it survived this episode.
He's my favorite Doctor, & I actually like his stuff...
But the show survived the Colin Baker era. It can survive anything
@@sirjedisentinelit didn’t survive the BBC execs though in the late 80s. I’d say it’s more so a testament to the shows strength as a show.
What's so unusual about that? Most viewers didn't have such a visceral moral reaction to it. It has a 6.7 on IMDB, which is pretty average for the show, and most view it as an average if forgettable episode.
The way Rose acts in season 2 is the worst, she is sooo annoying
Agreed... no reflection on the brilliant Billie Piper, just the way her character is written. I watch several excellent reactors' channels, but find myself temporary losing interest when they get to Series 2. I'm fine even with the weaker stories in other seasons, but there's something about S2 I guess!
Yeah. This episode was an episode I actually really enjoyed, up until the last 30 seconds.
I'm a bi man who had an abusive father growing up. I've never liked this bit and feels so wrong and frankly, doesn't make sense for Ten to be okay with this.
Start of this video: no way…what’s wrong with The Wire episode?
End of the video: oh….how did I completely forget about that?
The funny thing is, I’ve had to deal with this exact messaging my whole life. In fact, I went on a very similar rant about Encanto.
I’ve been forced to maintain contact with my abusers my whole life and the burden is always on me to “be the bigger person”.
In fact, I’m sitting here typing this, very sick right now because I don’t know how to enforce my boundaries with my family.
I’ve asked my mother and brother numerous times to not visit me when they have the flu because it takes me WEEKS to recover and they never listen to me because it’s only a couple of days for them and I’m being “overdramatic”.
There are lots of episodes that I find really disappointing or even frustrating, but I can't think of any as deeply offensive to me (as someone who grew up with an abusive stepdad) as the end of Idiot's Lantern. That's what sets it apart from other bad episodes for me. I also really don't like the scene where Tommy stands up to his dad. While it's a nice fantasy to fight back, it's also a quick way to get the shit beat out of you in real life. I don't want to think about what an episode would have to do to be worse than Idiot's Lantern.
I Think this was an accident. I Think it was supposed to be like „dont let your anger take you over, forgivness is important” but they didnt Think about boy as a abuse victim
sure if we're going by morals then it's definitely one of the worst episodes of doctor who if that aligns with your moral code. (to be clear, i agree on this front wholeheartedly)
but it's a bit of a deliberate misinterpretation of what people mean when they say episodes like Space Babies are the worst episodes ever to go "actually, THIS is the worst because of its messaging". when these people are saying modern Doctor Who is bad, they're talking about episodes as a whole, or series arcs as a whole, or trends seen throughout series etc. this is in contrast to the major flaw in The Idiot's Lantern, which let's face it, is literally just a couple lines of dialogue