Re: endings. Have you ever read Squardron Surpreme by Mark Gruenwald and Paul Ryan? Mark basically took Marvel's alt universe JLA analogues and used them to write "The last Justice League story". A lot of amazing ideas in that miniseries.
Thanks, I was hoping you could do something like this. You could easily do a part 2. As a sometime artist, I had the same thought that everyone did when they read this: it would be a great project to draw, but you only can go so far before you realize the main roadblock. It'd of course be a major challenge to come up with visuals that were as monumental and psychopathic as the concept, but it'd still be a fantastic portfolio to have and and you'd come out the other side a better artist. The obstacle would be in the script; there's only one guy who could put the words in it without it falling way short. Certainly some self-delusional writers have tried to mask Moore's brilliance as their own, but they don't realize how painfully transparent it can be.
The stuff with Doc Savage, Tarzan, and The Shadow remind me of what Warren Ellis would do with plot points in Planetary. The thing with Tarzan that is strange is with all the adaptations of the character going all the way back to the 40s and maybe before they've never delved into the later novels where really cool weird stuff like a hollow Earth exist and stuff. That more recent Tarzan they made with Alexander Skarsgard as him I hoped would go into that stuff but they just did the same sort of story they always do with the character.
Tom, have you read 'What We Can Know About Thunderman' (from Alan Moore's new book 'Illuminations') yet? It's a very funny, often acerbic but also sometimes still affectionate fictionalization of the American comic book industry and its history. I think it's Alan's final word on comics. He tends to talk about them now like a recovered addict: "I haven't written one for 6 years now" - it's like "6 years clean" :P If you pay careful attention to his interviews you'll notice he will no longer even speak the name of DC comics. I do not believe that Alan would ever write another superhero comic again, even on his own terms. He has excorcised the ghost and wants to put not just the industry but even the mythologies behind him. As Tom said (and I love him for it), comics broke Alan Moore's heart but, wizard or not, he is primarily a product of the english working class and that culture says that if someone hits you you can't let them know they hurt you and you can't show weakness or vulnerability. So the anti-Moore comics fans (probably the stupidest species of human on the planet) only see the anger, which they don't have the insight or integrity to understand, and not the genuine pyschological harm the industry's unscrupulous practices have done to him. Personally I am happy that he has freed himself of the burden and the book clearly shows Alan re-energized creatively. He is now getting the appreciation he merits AS AN AUTHOR in the mainstream, rather than just as the guy who elevated comics or created those lucrative properties. He has an actual literary agent, a respectable book publisher who treat him with respect and, if you see him in any recent video stream, an aura of peace and contentment to him. Wishing him back to comics now would be like wishing a recovered junkie back to a crack den. Stay clean Alan and keep the amazing work coming.
Tom, like yourself, when i first got access to the internet, back when Netscape was the only internet browser, i downloaded and printed Alan Moore's pitch for Twilight of the Superheroes! There are parallels to Alan Moore's concept of the Four Elementals and the Warren Ellis series, Planetary. DC Comics, published Alan Moore's proposal this year, in a hardcover collection, featuring several pre Crisis of Infinite Earths stories called DC Comics: End of an Era. I cracked up when you compared Alan Moore's voice to Treebeard. A great informative discussion.
I'd love to see this as a DC animated film with Moore involved and give him ALL the profits...a nice olive branch for how much they've screwed him over the years.
Hi Tom. Awesome what you did .Enjoyed every minute of it and would love to see the 2 hour version. Enjoyed the commentary too. Thanks for doing it, hope you do more. Any old unused Kirby scripts laying around?
Tom.......PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.........PPPPPLLLLLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEEE upload the full, uncut version of the pitch video!!!!!
You just appeared through the unknowable aortas of the algorithm a week or so ago, and just this morning checked the "...more" part of the twilight video (to see who did the passable yet clearly NOT Alan Moore narration) and was chuffed to see Tom Scioli as not only the voice, but proprietor of this channel! *I don't know exactly why, but ever since reading the commentary in back of your GI Joe books, I have always thought you were like 100% italian graphic album artist from Italy who spoke little if any English and those commentary/interviews were through a translator. Again, no idea why, mind mildly blown.
Have been binging your videos lately, great to see some decent views mileage as far as your excellent Alan Moore 'impersonation'/narration video is concerned. One thing though, this channel would seriously benefit from a resolution upgrade (720p just doesn't cut it these days, eh).
Not that this in any way licences the practice, nor shifts blame, onus, or responsibility onto Mr. Moore, but the practice of keeping things in print to preserve the rights is not new, and certainly wasn't a novel tactic born with Watchmen. DC has long kept characters and titles in print, even when they did poorly, because the larger IP was believed to have value. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that, among other characters, Wonder Woman had the odd status of being a super recognizable IP, with value, but the comic has often done very poorly. Nevertheless, DC, recognizing the value of the IP, have kept Wonder Woman going, even as a loss. There might also have been similar shenanigans/tactics around Captain Marvel? Perhaps due to Marvel's gambit of making their own Captain Marvel? I'm afraid I'm cloudy on the specifics, but it seems clear to me that DC did indeed act in poor faith, and didn't disabuse Moore of his notion that it would have a finite, reasonable print run. It's especially egregious, since they didn't let Moore do his bit with the Charlton characters. In making him create fresh characters, they upped his contribution and risk profile, and absolutely minimized theirs. They had nothing to lose, and Moore had to carry the story himself, without the benefit of the history and cultural relevance of the Charlton characters to do any of the narrative heavy lifting. I think it worked out for the best: among many other reasons and examples, Ozymandias works much better than even a re-imagined Pete Cannon: Thunderbolt (IMO). That said, in my mind, they really lost standing when they chose not to have real narrative/creative/IP skin in the game. In not letting him use their existing characters, and making him do it himself, they forfeited their larger IP claim (obviously not legally -- I'm speaking my sense of ought, not is).
I love Alan Moore to death, but I don't like the feel of anything he pitches in Twilight, save for Constantine screwing himself over in the end. THAT is a wonderful piece of business but the rest is too mean spirited and unnecessary
I should hasten to add, I mean the plot itself; his ideas about making the crossover work in spite or because of reluctant creators and potential merchandising / marketing are all very interesting
But he is wrong, COIE was already Superhero's ending. Not only that but The established 50-60 years of CONSISTENT storytelling-ending, the thing that DC lacks forever since these days with constant reboots and crisises and with "this canon this not canon". Also Crisis on Infinite Earths was done in perfectly self-honest way, instead of just some medieval allusions reskin with superheroes. People that new to DC comics and want to start comics need to read That one first and foremost. It is literally The Bible of The canon. Because everything before that was narrative that was tinkered to the death by editors , and everything that came since was just a mess of constant reboots and revisions of status quo, which is cool on it's own, but very confusing when you tried to read. For example : Richard Donner co-writter Last Son awesome Superman epic (which also largerly inspired Man of Steel in terms of fights and collateral damage scope, as well as some of Superman's attitude towards military) has Krypton aesthetic based largerly on Donner's movie or some variation of it, aesthetic which will only be "canon" only in Next reboot of Superman ie Secret Origins, but when you try to read comics origin that preceed Last Son you read Birthright which has completely different Krypton aesthetic, Jor-El look, etc. This is just one example and of course Superman historically difficult character because his origin was retconed even by his own creators (that added Kents, for example), but still there is non such problem before COIE, before that there was "normal" Earth 1 Superman and always "normal" Jor-El that looks exactly like Kal except he has golden headband and green costume with red trunks. And again. I am fine with story of Twilight itself, and with Moore's storytelling in general. Just not fine with kool kids klub that adoring Alan Moore so much while bashing others that do exactly the same thing, sometimes not as radical as Alan. Again, there is NO "saving grace". EVERY single superhero stuff that he is written Is ultimately edgy and tragic. Every single NEW non-rip off Silver Age story Is edgy and tragic, and realisticified using real life phyisics and what not. Not to mention that most of his stuff, just like with many other comics book world legends like Kirby or Ditko, aren't even his originally, just a spin on idea that existed before. Repent you biased comic books geeks, you are hypocrites!
There is no such things as a kool kids club of Alan Moore. That is just you having problems understanding other people´s arguments. Anybody using kool kids arguments has a very simplistic view of reality based on the opposition being at fault by not having a brain of its own. This is pure ad hominem. As for the rest of your diatribe, seems to me just a glorified fanboy decrying something else being praised instead of his own favourite toy. My own take? COIE is fine, but it is just a reorganization of the past. Unlike Twilight, it is is not a mythology. It does not create a new viewpoint of the matter at hand. And it is certaonly more a beginning than an ending. As for originality, there is no such thing. Everything, even what we call the most original thing ever, is just a spin on ideas that existed before. And talking about saving grace, even at his most dark, every superhero story by Alan Moore has some. Next time, try to build an argument without requiring a premise based on other people´s view. Have one of your own. Or... you know, you could just grow up.
@@Dacre1000 another mental gymnastics and sheer projections by Moore "fan"/one legitimate opinion haver. It is not MY fault that ALL of you liking exactly the same things and disliking exactly the same things, even though all of your "favorite" things contain everything that you "dislike", upon examenation by third party. Everything you do is hypocricy. Can't even defend your position without falling to one. Calling my objective observations an ad hominems while at the same time calling for me to "grow up" (what does that even suppose to mean?, answer: nothing, just another usual response from kool kids klub member, all of you are exactly one person), while adding to them meanings I never intended just so your counter "arguement" can even resemble any sort of legitimacy, ANOTHER by the book thing you people practice. Originality is The argument all of you try to fly while shitting on Other "cynical" superhero stories while praising Moore for exactly the same thing. Hence why I started attacking that very notion. * BUT! * *YOU* already knew that. You and the rest of you. Come back when you will think of some actually original response instead of pure subjective nonsense filled by sheer projections as well as blatant ad hominems (while accusing ME of ones, classic).
Tom, don’t think we wouldn’t want to see a full 2+ hour version.
Yep! I wished it was longer!
Maybe if we get enough comments asking for it, he'll give it to us
Nobody does pop culture commentary like Tom. Educational and entertaining.
Just wanted to say your Alan Moore impression in that video was absolutely flawless. We demand a 2+ hour cut 😂
Re: endings. Have you ever read Squardron Surpreme by Mark Gruenwald and Paul Ryan? Mark basically took Marvel's alt universe JLA analogues and used them to write "The last Justice League story".
A lot of amazing ideas in that miniseries.
Thanks, I was hoping you could do something like this. You could easily do a part 2.
As a sometime artist, I had the same thought that everyone did when they read this: it would be a great project to draw, but you only can go so far before you realize the main roadblock. It'd of course be a major challenge to come up with visuals that were as monumental and psychopathic as the concept, but it'd still be a fantastic portfolio to have and and you'd come out the other side a better artist. The obstacle would be in the script; there's only one guy who could put the words in it without it falling way short. Certainly some self-delusional writers have tried to mask Moore's brilliance as their own, but they don't realize how painfully transparent it can be.
The stuff with Doc Savage, Tarzan, and The Shadow remind me of what Warren Ellis would do with plot points in Planetary. The thing with Tarzan that is strange is with all the adaptations of the character going all the way back to the 40s and maybe before they've never delved into the later novels where really cool weird stuff like a hollow Earth exist and stuff. That more recent Tarzan they made with Alexander Skarsgard as him I hoped would go into that stuff but they just did the same sort of story they always do with the character.
Tom, have you read 'What We Can Know About Thunderman' (from Alan Moore's new book 'Illuminations') yet? It's a very funny, often acerbic but also sometimes still affectionate fictionalization of the American comic book industry and its history. I think it's Alan's final word on comics. He tends to talk about them now like a recovered addict: "I haven't written one for 6 years now" - it's like "6 years clean" :P If you pay careful attention to his interviews you'll notice he will no longer even speak the name of DC comics. I do not believe that Alan would ever write another superhero comic again, even on his own terms. He has excorcised the ghost and wants to put not just the industry but even the mythologies behind him. As Tom said (and I love him for it), comics broke Alan Moore's heart but, wizard or not, he is primarily a product of the english working class and that culture says that if someone hits you you can't let them know they hurt you and you can't show weakness or vulnerability. So the anti-Moore comics fans (probably the stupidest species of human on the planet) only see the anger, which they don't have the insight or integrity to understand, and not the genuine pyschological harm the industry's unscrupulous practices have done to him.
Personally I am happy that he has freed himself of the burden and the book clearly shows Alan re-energized creatively. He is now getting the appreciation he merits AS AN AUTHOR in the mainstream, rather than just as the guy who elevated comics or created those lucrative properties. He has an actual literary agent, a respectable book publisher who treat him with respect and, if you see him in any recent video stream, an aura of peace and contentment to him. Wishing him back to comics now would be like wishing a recovered junkie back to a crack den. Stay clean Alan and keep the amazing work coming.
It's so great listening to you guys, like hanging out with fellow nerd friends I never had
Tom, like yourself, when i first got access to the internet, back when Netscape was the only internet browser, i downloaded and printed Alan Moore's pitch for Twilight of the Superheroes!
There are parallels to Alan Moore's concept of the Four Elementals and the Warren Ellis series, Planetary.
DC Comics, published Alan Moore's proposal this year, in a hardcover collection, featuring several pre Crisis of Infinite Earths stories called DC Comics: End of an Era.
I cracked up when you compared Alan Moore's voice to Treebeard.
A great informative discussion.
The video was really fun and it was great hearing you both talk about it. Wouldn't mind seeing Tom make visuals for other proposals like Superman 2000
@Maudite Part Bruh, I just suggested he dot he same with that proposal as he did with the Twilight one he did.
Would love to see Tom’s original drawings
You guyz got style 👍
I'd love to see this as a DC animated film with Moore involved and give him ALL the profits...a nice olive branch for how much they've screwed him over the years.
You should do something like this for what you had in mind for the rest of your Super Powers story!
Hi Tom. Awesome what you did .Enjoyed every minute of it and would love to see the 2 hour version. Enjoyed the commentary too. Thanks for doing it, hope you do more. Any old unused Kirby scripts laying around?
Btw forgot to write "thanks" to the creator of animation and narration. Was real fun.
Tom.......PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.........PPPPPLLLLLEEEEEAAAAASSSSSEEEEE upload the full, uncut version of the pitch video!!!!!
You just appeared through the unknowable aortas of the algorithm a week or so ago, and just this morning checked the "...more" part of the twilight video (to see who did the passable yet clearly NOT Alan Moore narration) and was chuffed to see Tom Scioli as not only the voice, but proprietor of this channel!
*I don't know exactly why, but ever since reading the commentary in back of your GI Joe books, I have always thought you were like 100% italian graphic album artist from Italy who spoke little if any English and those commentary/interviews were through a translator. Again, no idea why, mind mildly blown.
Holy shit you're so right about how Congrilla's story would end! I feel blind for not having seen it coming before you said it
Have been binging your videos lately, great to see some decent views mileage as far as your excellent Alan Moore 'impersonation'/narration video is concerned. One thing though, this channel would seriously benefit from a resolution upgrade (720p just doesn't cut it these days, eh).
It’s weird how DC and Marvel have become the modern Roman and Greek mythology
Tom please do more alan moore greetins from argentina
Found your channel due to TotS. Subbed and... Going over you content, I'm def gonna haump up all your Kirby shit... don't mind me.
Not that this in any way licences the practice, nor shifts blame, onus, or responsibility onto Mr. Moore, but the practice of keeping things in print to preserve the rights is not new, and certainly wasn't a novel tactic born with Watchmen. DC has long kept characters and titles in print, even when they did poorly, because the larger IP was believed to have value. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that, among other characters, Wonder Woman had the odd status of being a super recognizable IP, with value, but the comic has often done very poorly. Nevertheless, DC, recognizing the value of the IP, have kept Wonder Woman going, even as a loss.
There might also have been similar shenanigans/tactics around Captain Marvel? Perhaps due to Marvel's gambit of making their own Captain Marvel? I'm afraid I'm cloudy on the specifics, but it seems clear to me that DC did indeed act in poor faith, and didn't disabuse Moore of his notion that it would have a finite, reasonable print run.
It's especially egregious, since they didn't let Moore do his bit with the Charlton characters. In making him create fresh characters, they upped his contribution and risk profile, and absolutely minimized theirs. They had nothing to lose, and Moore had to carry the story himself, without the benefit of the history and cultural relevance of the Charlton characters to do any of the narrative heavy lifting. I think it worked out for the best: among many other reasons and examples, Ozymandias works much better than even a re-imagined Pete Cannon: Thunderbolt (IMO). That said, in my mind, they really lost standing when they chose not to have real narrative/creative/IP skin in the game. In not letting him use their existing characters, and making him do it himself, they forfeited their larger IP claim (obviously not legally -- I'm speaking my sense of ought, not is).
I love Alan Moore to death, but I don't like the feel of anything he pitches in Twilight, save for Constantine screwing himself over in the end. THAT is a wonderful piece of business but the rest is too mean spirited and unnecessary
I should hasten to add, I mean the plot itself; his ideas about making the crossover work in spite or because of reluctant creators and potential merchandising / marketing are all very interesting
Tom king. Or Taylor is attempting this story with knights of steel. Just very poorly 😢I
But he is wrong, COIE was already Superhero's ending. Not only that but The established 50-60 years of CONSISTENT storytelling-ending, the thing that DC lacks forever since these days with constant reboots and crisises and with "this canon this not canon". Also Crisis on Infinite Earths was done in perfectly self-honest way, instead of just some medieval allusions reskin with superheroes. People that new to DC comics and want to start comics need to read That one first and foremost. It is literally The Bible of The canon. Because everything before that was narrative that was tinkered to the death by editors , and everything that came since was just a mess of constant reboots and revisions of status quo, which is cool on it's own, but very confusing when you tried to read. For example : Richard Donner co-writter Last Son awesome Superman epic (which also largerly inspired Man of Steel in terms of fights and collateral damage scope, as well as some of Superman's attitude towards military) has Krypton aesthetic based largerly on Donner's movie or some variation of it, aesthetic which will only be "canon" only in Next reboot of Superman ie Secret Origins, but when you try to read comics origin that preceed Last Son you read Birthright which has completely different Krypton aesthetic, Jor-El look, etc. This is just one example and of course Superman historically difficult character because his origin was retconed even by his own creators (that added Kents, for example), but still there is non such problem before COIE, before that there was "normal" Earth 1 Superman and always "normal" Jor-El that looks exactly like Kal except he has golden headband and green costume with red trunks.
And again. I am fine with story of Twilight itself, and with Moore's storytelling in general. Just not fine with kool kids klub that adoring Alan Moore so much while bashing others that do exactly the same thing, sometimes not as radical as Alan.
Again, there is NO "saving grace". EVERY single superhero stuff that he is written Is ultimately edgy and tragic. Every single NEW non-rip off Silver Age story Is edgy and tragic, and realisticified using real life phyisics and what not.
Not to mention that most of his stuff, just like with many other comics book world legends like Kirby or Ditko, aren't even his originally, just a spin on idea that existed before.
Repent you biased comic books geeks, you are hypocrites!
There is no such things as a kool kids club of Alan Moore. That is just you having problems understanding other people´s arguments. Anybody using kool kids arguments has a very simplistic view of reality based on the opposition being at fault by not having a brain of its own. This is pure ad hominem. As for the rest of your diatribe, seems to me just a glorified fanboy decrying something else being praised instead of his own favourite toy.
My own take? COIE is fine, but it is just a reorganization of the past. Unlike Twilight, it is is not a mythology. It does not create a new viewpoint of the matter at hand. And it is certaonly more a beginning than an ending. As for originality, there is no such thing. Everything, even what we call the most original thing ever, is just a spin on ideas that existed before. And talking about saving grace, even at his most dark, every superhero story by Alan Moore has some.
Next time, try to build an argument without requiring a premise based on other people´s view. Have one of your own. Or... you know, you could just grow up.
@@Dacre1000 another mental gymnastics and sheer projections by Moore "fan"/one legitimate opinion haver.
It is not MY fault that ALL of you liking exactly the same things and disliking exactly the same things, even though all of your "favorite" things contain everything that you "dislike", upon examenation by third party.
Everything you do is hypocricy. Can't even defend your position without falling to one. Calling my objective observations an ad hominems while at the same time calling for me to "grow up" (what does that even suppose to mean?, answer: nothing, just another usual response from kool kids klub member, all of you are exactly one person), while adding to them meanings I never intended just so your counter "arguement" can even resemble any sort of legitimacy, ANOTHER by the book thing you people practice.
Originality is The argument all of you try to fly while shitting on Other "cynical" superhero stories while praising Moore for exactly the same thing. Hence why I started attacking that very notion. * BUT! * *YOU* already knew that. You and the rest of you.
Come back when you will think of some actually original response instead of pure subjective nonsense filled by sheer projections as well as blatant ad hominems (while accusing ME of ones, classic).
"I ain't reading all that. I'm happy for u tho. Or sorry that happened."
@@tatesears8958 Well... I am happy it happened to you. ;)
@@tatesears8958 Except you did, you just have 0 valid counter arguments.
I wanna say this nicely but y'all are better scripted than unscripted
Just wanted to say your Alan Moore impression in that video was absolutely flawless. We demand a 2+ hour cut 😂