Do These Villains Deserve Redemption?
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2021
- It's become common place for villain redemption arcs in movies. Whether it's Loki, Scarlett Witch, Darth Vader, or even Venom, each villain is given their chance to make up for their wrong doings. Venom walks a fine line when trying to redeem the symbiotic Spider-Man villain. But creating a complete story arc for Venom has proven to be even more difficult when Spider-Man isn't around.
#Venom #Spiderman #Nerdstalgic
Written by Chris Teregis
Edited by Brian Nappi - Розваги
What villain do you think EARNED their redemption?
Scarlemagne from Kipo on Netflix. Though he eventually did sacrifice himself, it came after a proper redemption arc
There is a correct answer:
Zuko
Kingdom hearts could learn from this
Hal 9000 in 2010: the year we make contact
Negan from TWD although I would say I still don’t agree with that decision…
I hate when we're supposed to forgive a villain because of their tragic backstory without the villain taking responsibility for what they did.
Exactly. Backstory is how you can get a sympathetic villain, but their actions are how you get redemption.
Eddies more than done enough to make up for it though. Talking about the comics the movie wasn't great so not counting it
Yup, disgusting. Do I care that you were bullied that's why you annihilate the whole village?
I Hated Raya and the last Dragon for that. Raya should have AT LEAST jailed that murdering hypocrite thief from Fang Kingdom.
Bingo
My favorite redemption story is the "agent venom" comic by Rick Remender. It follows the story of Peter's former high school bully Flash Thompson, as he struggles being a super hero for the U.S military, an abusive father, and being a recovering alcoholic. It's a great story full of ups and downs of someone that just wants to be better.
The issue where one of the guys he used to bully pities him by inviting him over, and Flash hears him arguing with his SO in the kitchen about the torture Flash caused, was one of those comic moments I think will stick with me forever.
Flash's character in the comics and the stories he's in are amazing
That makes me think a lot of about MHA's Endeavor. Sure he was never a in-universe villain, but he was definetly a villain. And when he starts to redeem himself, it never feels like isn't paying for what he's done. The scene when he get's home and his sons still reject him after saving the city... Brilliant.
@@ghostkhaos2 I have mixed emotions about that. On the one hand it was interesting to read, on the other it retconned one of my favorite things about flash and made his high school self more unlikable. Before that it was established that flash wasn't a bully, peter simply viewed him that way, and I loved it. From what I know Flash had never been violent towards Peter or anyone else he "bullied" in the comics until that issue came out. So while I love the entire run, and it helped add to his redemption, it was a retcon that didn't sit right with me.
Agree, I like idea of actual violent bully for Peter being Albert King. And yes The Thousand is one time villain, but he is great.
I think, had Marvel been aware of Chadwick Boseman's illness, having Killmonger be the one to survive at T'Challa's death would have been a huge and shocking revelation, while giving Killmonger the drive to do better, to follow his beliefs, but in a less violent, more heroic fashion. Plus, what movie kills it's title character in the opening movie of a prospective franchise?!?
Boseman's passing was one of the most painful celebrity losses for me. I had never met him, nor was likely to, but he had so much potential and goodness and humanity and we lost all that forever.
I just googled chadwick since I hadnt heard of him and even though hes been in like 30 movies I havent seen any of them
@@autodidacticartisan Hahah. Yes, and I totally blanked on actually mentioning the movie I was talking about. It's Black Panther.
@@DenisRyan lol thanks. He was really young its a shame he passed 😥
love that whenever you're talking about how to succeed in a redemption arc, you swap over to images of ATLA and Zuko.
I echo that man
It really is a stellar example of a redemption arc.
His redemption arc was really seamless. They actually made you care about him so it hits you hard when the ATLA crew doesn’t trust him at first but at the same time a part of you knows you probably shouldn’t trust him
I'd argue that Zuko is THE example of a redempiton arc. His os the redemption arc that all fictional stories in the past and future should he judged against.
Maybe not the best in the world (although maybe) - specially because he was never evil per se, just misguided but the most quintessential one.
ice king was used too. great example as well
" As humans we are hard wired to forgive people who have made mistakes"
tell that to twitter XD
"Humans"
Human mentality vs mob mentality humans can be forgiving and gentle, a mob of people are pure insanity.
Forget Twitter. History is dominated by societies that had no forgiveness...except for those with power.
Redemption characters
Vegeta
Omni Man Nolen Greyson
Negan
Gajeel
Theon Grayjoy
He said "... that own up to their mistakes". You have to tell Twitter that first
It feels like after Zuko, every villain had to get one and they never seemed to understand WHY Zuko worked
Plus Zuko was more of a antagonist then a villain
Villainy is a bit tired as tropes go. An antagonist or foil turn the gears of the story where villains just set the tone.
@josh raid oooouuuu I like the way you put that
I dunno, Zuko was pretty much the big bad villain for whole season 1. Then his psychopatic sister joined the fray and he and Iro took a backseat in the main story and instead Zuko learned to be a better person.
@@TheAssirra the big villain was Ozai. Zuko was a antagonist aka a foil to Aang who stopped being the main antagonist when Azula was introduced, and even still I wouldn’t consider her the main villain
@@TheAssirra Eh, but even in season 1 they went out of their way time and time again to show that 1) Zuko was the lowest in the hierachy of his own country of evildoers, 2) the Fire Nation as an institution, that Zuko isn't currently part of, is the real big bad nazi Goliath, and 3) the high ranking members of the military are much more unfeeling and plain evil than Zuko.
They even used Zhao a lot of the time, because he represented the military and its high ranking megalomaniacs.
That automatically made Zuko less of a villain, and more of a sympathetic anti-villain in a pretty clever villain disguise. As soon as Zhao was in the game we rooted for Zuko over him.
From the beginning Azula is different in her status and presentation. She's much scarier, but she also has the respect of any Fire Nation person they meet. That gives off the impression that she must be more representative of what the brand of evil in this show is, and more successful in the execution of their ideals.
That makes her immediately less sympathetic, and simply more villainous. The fact that she also wins at the end of season 2 is cementing her status as irredeemable villain.
I honestly love the relationship between Eddie and Venom. The way they react to the silver and red symbiotes are hilarious
a good villain who survived his self-sacrifice was Spike from Buffy. he had this fantastic arc that moved from one series to another. he kept his gloomy personality but became a wonderful character by the end.
Loki was definitely a character who earned it
Wholeheartedly agree
@@Nerdstalgic the first time atleast
no
@Snehil Shrey the show also had loki at the height of his narcissism (end of avengers 2012) only to immediately have him own up to it by the end of episode 1
@Snehil Shrey that makes it worse imo. That diminishes his growth if he was mind controlled and his actions in that movie werent even his own choice. Also Id be all for a season spanning loki redemption story but it 100% did happen in episode one because throughout the season hes not really doing anything remotely evil or anything that shows hes struggling to change how he acts; its just a very long series of a lot of good deeds and him being self aware of his faults. Itd be like if zuko left the fire nation and immediately started being a likable hero and joined team avatar 2 episodes later
This is very similar to the Grinch example, but Ebenezer Scrooge was definitely a villain (even though he was the protagonist) who survived his redemption arc.
Speaking of Dr. Seuss, could the Once-ler count too, sort of?
In terms of Stories in Gaming, I'd have to say a Redemption Arc that's the most ICONIC would be that of Arbiter Thel 'Vadam from the Halo Franchise
The guy spends decades driving humanity to NEAR EXTINCTION just from being such an effective and zealous commander and warrior in the war against humanity. He's also the main reason that Reach fell.
Then, after the events of Halo 1, where the main reason he lost wasn't just because of Master Chief, but also because a Prophet was trying to usurp his command, he gets humiliated, and actively seeks redemption from the Covenant. The Covenant then uses this drive for redemption to squeeze as much usefulness out of him, before promptly betraying him and his whole species of Elites.
Following that, Elites and Humanity forge an alliance out of necessity to fight the Covenant and the Flood on both fronts. But from that alliance, they start to mutually respect each other, Master Chief and Arbiter included.
By the time Humanity and the Elites have defeated both the Covenant and the Flood, they could have very easily broken their truce and fought again. But both sides were weakened, and both no longer had a reason to fight each other apart from revenge. Yet each side chose to forgive yet not forget.
Following the War, Humans and Elites would end up rebuilding alongside each other, sharing technology with each other even, and cohabiting some planets together. And this effort is spearheaded by the Arbiter, who as the ruler of the Elites now has made it clear he's actively trying to redeem what atrocities he has done for humanity, and ends up becoming their biggest ally. This is to the point that some Humans consider their allied Elites as "brothers" despite not even being in the same branch of species.
For decades, a single alien warrior commander was responsible for a billion human lives. Now he's one of those responsible for keeping humanity safe for the rest of his very long life.
One of my fave video game characters and yeah a complex story arc
What's the average lifespan of a Sangheili anyway?
@@SuperGoose42 same as ours give or take
"You can't bring a villain back from random intergalactic genocide"
That's the thing, Thanos even says this in What If, it's not genocide _because_ it's random. Actual genocide is defined as specifically targeting a certain group to wipe them out, and he explicitly didn't target any group in particular. It's still mass murder, but it doesn't exactly fit the definition of genocide.
Is it really random if he's unwilling to include himself as one of the individuals who could be wiped out?
@@bS0up well it would’ve made sense for him to spare himself because he knew he would destroy the stones after the snap
We need to remember, this was a movie attempt to tell the character's story without the literal embodiment of Death. He wanted to murder half the universe as a wedding dowry.
@@bS0up did he? I thought he's willing to take the gamble.
Ahhh yes, technically not genocide makes it okay 9,9
Magneto not only survived his redemption arc, he returned to the side of good, then went BACK to being a savage ass villain again
Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tien shinhan from dragon ball i feel had really satisfying villian redemption arcs. Don't think I've ever seen nerdstalgic cover any sort of anime but I would love to see something of the sort be done at some point!
They have all self sacrificed at some point though, and then got brought back
A lot of anime shows have redeemed villains that actually end up joining the hero. Maybe it is just American story telling?
Well they have all died but death mean jack shit in dragon ball anime now in days
@@JoshuaJordanUbernerd527 it is alot more common in kids cartoons for the villain to survive it but that reason is usually obvious
Sasuke too
Love redemption arcs overall especially when done well
What are your favorites?
@@Nerdstalgic It’s pretty ironic that the same jerk who wines about villains needing to constantly and repetitively be tragic, sympathetic, “relatable”, and human, says that some villains can’t be redeemed. If some villains can’t be redeemed then what’s the point of saying that villains need to be “realistic” and “make sense”
And plus you’ll probably just say that the villains that appeal and connect to society deserve to be redeemed and which ever ones nobody cares for don’t deserve redemption
@@Nerdstalgic Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi, Greg Heffley in Diary of a Wimpy Kid, Loki (in every single marvel movie), the T-Rex in Jurassic Park, I could go on
@@jaysmith3173 Nerdstalgic isn’t a group of jerks, dude. They’re just saying the truth. Sometimes a villain is just so bad that they shouldn’t be redeemed. The Joker (who was likable), Thanos (who was likable), Killmonger (who was likable), Koba from Planet of the Apes (who was sympathetic and tragic), and Gollum (who was sympathetic and tragic) were all great, likable villains, but didn’t get a redemption. Sometimes villains just shouldn’t get one
@@josiahmccord867 I think I’m saying the truth and they are hit and they think they are right
Remember how Jaimie Lannister had an incredible arc set up? Too bad that show didn't get an 8th season so we could see it pay off
Billy from Stranger Things is another perfect example of what you’re talking about
damm that is a perfect one
Oh heck yes! I forgot he was the antagonist at one point. That's how good his arc is.
What did you think of the flashbacks of his mother on the beach ?
@@willjames915 I was thinking more about the fact that he died, but yeah, that too.
It feels like a good redemption arc because the show just can't stop punishing him for what he used to be.
I’m actually really hoping Doc Ock’s return in No Way Home will actually let him atone instead of his redemption ending in self-sacrifice
And, how do you feel about him now?
Turns out NWH Doc ock doesnt redeem himself.
@@darnit1944yeah he does because unlike the other bad guys he doesn’t go to evil after the building explodes
Venom can eat everyone and I'll still love the movie version.
Venom SHOULD eat everyone
Thats what makes him an anti-hero
V O R E
I know, that joke is low hanging fruit.
i might've enjoyed it if it had an R rating
Self sacrifice is effective when a villain has already passed the moral event horizon, where their actions are beyond a point of reasonable redemption. Because allowing villains who have committed great atrocities to be redeemed might often feel like the narrative is cheating a character who is "undeserving" of redemption, or wouldn't have the proper time within a story to be properly redeemed.
Like nobody would want to watch Hitler turn over a new leaf because none of the good he would do could undo the damage he's caused. Generally, the less bad the acts of the villain, the easier it will be to redeem them. Although I also think it's better that villains with great sway and power should be allowed to use their power to compensate for their actions regardless of whether or not they receive forgiveness.
You stated that perfectly..
Steven Universe be like
if hitler did turn over a new leaf... you think he'd take up a quiet life as a baker? 🤔😂
@@79licorice Peak comedy.
Real talk though, not bad. And he'd probably try art again.
@@diegobendinelli2680 Steven Universe makes me angry and I don't even hate the show.
In the alternate ending of I Am Legend I thought the villains earned the sympathy I felt, although it was less of an arc and more of an understanding.
To them, he was a villain. That's why the name of the book was I Am Legend. He spent years killing them, he was their villain, their boogeyman.
They are not villains, they are antagonists. Protagonist the one that murdering them
I think that Vegeta is one of the best antagonists that survives their redemption arc. Even though he technically did die at the end of it, it's Dragon Ball so he came back.
I love what they did with him in the Moro and Granola Arcs tbh. He's been great. without truly changing his personality.
We don’t know how it goes in the books, so possibly Jaime Lannister survives his redemption arc.
I gotta think there are some examples from comedies where the villain survives a redemption arc.
Well, he does survive his redemption arc in some sense. Since the final books will never be released, the story is forever on hold. Thus, Jaime lives.
I liked how IDW comic's portrayal of Megatron never actually made Megatron become a good guy. He went from a moral tyrant to an Autobot, but he never actually truly became a good guy. He even admits to how he can never stop being himself before slaughtering his Stans. He was no longer a super villain, but he wasn't a super hero. He was just... Megatron
What issues?
Kratos definetely earned his redemption from a monster to father.
True dat
BOY
Don't be sorry, be better
Silent Boy
Ehhh, 2018 sorta fucked with the story of the OT and pushed the whole "total destruction of an entire pantheon and it's nation/world, even going back and killing the gods he spared" under the rug and completely ignored 3's ending of giving the people Hope and removing the gods from the equation. Everyone is still dead and pissed as fuck about what he caused (even if those outside of Olympus and the towns surrounding the mountain shouldn't know it was him who *technically* caused the apocalypse.) "New-Kratos" even says that he knows he can never be redeemed and isn't deserving of a redemption, but he can at least stop more destruction before it happens. Now, Original-Canon-Kratos did do the whole self-sacrifice suicide thing on the phoenix symbol and giving Hope thing though, so that counts.
Love it or hate it, Tom Hardy killed it as both Eddie and Venom though in a dumb dorky kind of way which I actually enjoyed. Looking forward to Let There Be Carnage
Catra from the She-Ra show on Netflix is another character who survived their redemption arc
I'm seeing a theme here. Animated series do their antagonists and their redemtions RIGHT.
Unfortunately not well and not really deserved
@@gbdeck200 Disagree with you there. Girls life was hell and she suffered immensely for what she did. She even willingly attempted to sacrifice herself in order to redeem herself only for Adora to come and rescue her. And in the end that act of kindness pays off since she's the one who helps save Adora in the end and allows Adora to finish her own arc and save the universe. She more then earned her chance at a better life.
Also love subversion with Shadow Weaver "redemption death" where her last words make it clear that she does that only for her own means and doesn't want actual redemption.
You showed Ice King, he survived to the end, and it was tragic.
Man, Venom is literally my comfort character. I love that he’s the main focus of this video.
It is now a good weekend. Nerdstalgic has me deep thinking about villains and redemption and I’m gonna apply it to this weekend’s dnd game!
Neerrrrrrrrrrddddd-in tfs piccolo voice
I think that Migi from Parasyte the Maxim is a much, much better version of this Venom in pretty much every way possible. Migi’s character development follows a similar path, turning from an insect like parasite without a moral compass into an empathetic entity that understands humanity, but Migi’s character arc tracks so much better. Of course, Migi has much more time to do this, as Migi is a main character in a manga/anime that is more than a few volumes/episodes long. Venom’s development seems rushed by comparison, all of his development artificially propelled by a script without any character/plot prerequisites, while Migi’s development is always organically linked to Migi’s dynamics with Shinichi and the parasites and the circumstances that Migi finds itself in. On top of that, Migi has a more developed “headspace” thanks to a well written manga/script as it ponders on the nature of the many facets of humanity as opposed to Venom, whose entire thought process can be summed up as “can I eat people yet?”.
I don't read the comics, maybe they elaborate more in those.
I love 2018 Venom. It’s a fun movie to watch
@Snehil Shrey dunno. the relationship between eddie and venom was the best part pf the movie (the only good part) but felt like it had to be cut down as the movie rushed to get from action sequence to action sequence, and this made it feel artificial and underdeveloped. and the action in this movie was ok i guess, mostly boring, some cool use of venom powers. but no tension. and the plot was pretty awful. hugely disappointing. couldve easily been great
I think the Grinch could have benefited from the spirit of Christmas killing him tbh
I really hate the villain self sacrifice to be good at the end trope. Killing yourself/ending your life for the plot is not a sacrifice nor is it redemption, spending the rest of your life righting your wrongs is the sacrifice. No one will benefit from you dying today, but they may benefit from how you help them tomorrow.
The most of villains would end up executed for mass murder anyway, so they would die just a little bit later.
@@Mysikrysa ok then it means we having a working court system and instead of encouraging rampant vigilantism
*cough cough* Darth vader *cough cough*
Love the redemption arc of Negan from the walking dead. If he survives the final season it will be a great redemption arc as he is now the fan favorite on TWD.
His story prob gonna end with him sacrificing his life for Maggie but we’ll see
Jfc, that show is still going? Isn't all the original characters dead at this point?
Yep
Do a whole episode on Zuko! He's the gold standard at redemption
Great way to redeem a villain, Peridot from Steven Universe. Terrible way to redeem a villain, the Diamonds from Steven Universe
I have my head canon that they are not redeemed. They just stoped being crazy dictators, they found their family member back. If something happen to SU they would go nut again.
But we all know that the last season was rushed. Rebecca made the bet, with the cancelation coming from CN and their investors being afraid of more loss, controversy and censorship.
Still i think its a good (super idealistic and unreal) but good end.
It just hit me that Parasyte is basically a Japanese adaption of a Venom-like story.
When you said Kylo Ren, I was like “what redemption arc?”. That’s not an arc man that’s a whole circle 😂 All the character developments in The Rise of Skywalker really felt like it went nowhere, it’s sad.
He had a reason to leave the new Jedi, but he was more a Darth Vader in reverse, and it smacked of lazy writing. Less a circle and more like playing ping-pong against the turned up table. A circle has a gradual curve, this was just a straight back bounce.
@@Craxin01 Darth Vader was more like threading the line between the light and dark side after he heard Luke was alive while Kylo Ren was just jumping around 2 extremes.
From 3:04 to 3:57 the music and the monologue flowed very very nicely... I liked that new tone! Nice editing!
Nerdstalgic constantly putting out quality content!
I really wish this channel hits 1M. Content is sooo good.
Zuko is obviously the best redemption arc ever written, but Harry Osborn could've become an even more interesting character had he survived
Zuko has the best redemption arch.
Huh. Never really considered how most villain redemption arcs end with the villain dying. Very intriguing...
I will say, though, I tend to see better redemption arcs that don't end in death in television than films because you have more time to flesh it out in a show than a movie. Just an observation.
Impmon/Beelzemon from Digimon Tamers is a good example.
His arc was so good
Everyone deserves a chance to redeem themselves. At least that’s what I belief. And I’m not oblivious to the fact that it’s not always as simple as it’s said.
0:47
No, Thanos is not a good example, What If taught us that with the right talk, he could be convinced that the resources could be distributed differently, and he no longer actively pursued to harm others.
Plus, I read somewhere that there were plans for Thanos to join in the fight in Avengers Endgame, after realizing the chaos the snap had caused in the Universe, that is a rumor, but still a believable way of changing his ideals.
I can't get over the timing of the clip with the guitar strums to the background music at 5:28. What the hell, man? Talk about symbiosis!
Zuko from ATLA is an amazing example for an alive redeemed villian
Bro, Ive seen you with the critical drinker on some review formats. This is amazing audio work. I had to stop 5 minutes in to tell you. Great job man
I really like the more middle ground approach were the character realizes their wrong but doesn't fully become good.
Venom’s redemption arc in the comics is honestly much more compelling.
The movie kinda focused on the wrong things unfortunately
@@sunbleachedangel agreed
@@sunbleachedangel the movie was butt
Sadly in order for the comic arc to even start, there has to have hate for Spiderman's abandonment. No spidy, no comic book arc.
@@seanc9520 well to be fair; if there's no Spider-Man, there's no Venom
I'm impressed with this informative video. Not everyone tried to redeem themselves.
The Stormlight Archive has an interesting reverse redemption arc (by this I mean he gets his redemption before we learn why they need redemption).
One of the main characters is a man named Dalinar Kholin, and he's a stand-up guy. Honorable, nice, strong, cares for his people, we are introduced to him as a good man. But throughout the books, we hear about his past as the Blackthorn, a terrible warlord, which causes a lot of people (notably the rulers of nations) to fear and distrust him, believing that his genuinely good ambitions are merely a ploy to rule the world, while Dalinar is trying to redeem himself. It isn't until the third book when we learn what exactly the Blackthorn is like.
Dalinar prior to the events of the series was the very picture of evil. He was abusive to his family, he only cared about strength, he had an immense bloodlust, he was a monster. He had thoughts of murdering his brother, the king, just because he thought he was going soft. He was a one man army, who slaughtered entire armies by himself and conquered kingdoms by force. His wife, named Evi, wanted Dalinar to stop being the Blackthorn and to stop being downright evil, and Dalinar, starting to actually be affected by his wife's genuine compassion, decided to give democracy a try and actually negotiate with the kingdom he was going to take over. When that kingdom betrayed him, he completely snapped and basically decided to burn the whole thing down in one of his most evil moments. He decided that he would raze the kingdom to the ground and murder literally everybody inside to make an example not to fuck with the Blackthorn. And then he accidentally murders his wife because she is in the city as well. That's when Dalinar starts taking a turn.
First he becomes a drunken mess, and his brother is assassinated while he is passed out drunk in the same building, and this only fed the flames of his regret. He takes the words of the text The Way of Kings to heart and decides to start following all of the principles inside of the book, and when he gets an opportunity, he goes to see the Nightwatcher (basically a genie) and asks her for forgiveness. She can't give this to him (symbolism because you can't magically be forgiven!), but her mother, Cultivation, comes out and removes all of his memories of his wife, but later on they would be returned to him. And from that point on Dalinar starts becoming the man we see in the books proper, and come the end of the third book when he regains his memories of his wife, he is able to accept the pain of his crimes and keep moving forward, not redeemed but trying to be better. And then he writes a book, stating the cold hard facts of his life. As he says in the book "I have been named a monster, and do not deny those claims. I am the monster I fear we can all become. So sit back. Read, or listen, to one who has passed between realms. Listen to the words of a fool. If they cannot make you less foolish, at least let them give you hope. For I, of all people, have changed."
Does ruroni kenshin also count as reverse redemption arc?
@@thirdplanet4471 No clue, never watched it
@@thirdplanet4471 I was thinking of Kenshin too! I only think it kinda does because even at his worst he was never a villain. He was a soldier, an assassin, but he never enjoyed the killing and he never went overboard. But Kenshin is definitely seeking redemption because he felt himself a villain even though he is hailed as a hero by all the non-antagonists of the show
As Venom is my favorite comic book character and comic book, I'm always annoyed when people who assume Venom has always been more of a villain and so how I would react to the Venom movie. Instead of being mad, I was relived and I love the movie for capturing the spirit of Venom's original run of mini series after mini series. I understand that this mostly due to adaptions utterly refusing to adapt Venom as a anti-hero despite that is what Eddie and the symbiote has been for most of their life as a characters and the various hosts over the years while people assume Eddie was always the host, giving a warped perception of the characters but its still annoying. For Eddie!Venom, his hey day as a villain was not in the 90s, it was the 80s, his redemption and transition to anti-hero started in the 90s, which are the books this version of Venom is actually adapting. (Specifically its a mix of Lethal Protector and Planet of the Symbiotes)
My complaining out of the way, once the video focuses on only the movie and starts the analysis from a film perspective it becomes pretty good. Sadly films, even with the advent of the MCU, do not want to try to do a redemption arc, even though anti-heroes born this way are very popular and its fitting that a Venom movie would break this trend as Marvel's shining example for redemption in the comics. While its not a Hollywood film I would point to Broly from the anime movie Dragon Ball Super: Broly of another redemption arc tried in the shorter movie format.
Bit late, but nerdstalgic out with a new banger
Well, one redemption arc I truly love is from IDW's Transformers comics version of Megatron. The guy tried to bring equality to a corrupt society but literally drove his world and race to war and left his world a barren wasteland but over the course of the comics he realized why he failed and even became a friggin Autobot to redeem himself. A magnificent redemption arc
When I watched the venom movie I was perplexed by how much it seemed to resemble Parasyte The Maxim. I really love that anime so I was pretty presently surprised. Especially how they grow and evolve together.
I just watched Venom last night, and I absolutely LOVED it. Is it a cinema masterpiece? No. But it's really fun, and the character development is actually quite well done.
Eddie is chaotic and has problems with checking his impulses, and he definitely deserved the fall out from what he did in the beginning of the film. But he's still really likable because he's not an abusive d-bag, snob, sleaze, narcissist, or bully.
He respects even homeless people, and is friends with a security guard. Many people IRL would think that because they're a well known TV personality/journalist, that they're entitled to act and be treated like royalty.
When he loses his job, he immediately starts looking for another, even considering dishwashing. He's not yelling shit like, "DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!" And demanding anything.
He misses Annie but doesn't demand shit from her at all. The only time he does get all, "You gotta listen to me!" It's about trying to stop the deaths of innocent people.
Even Venom redeems himself, somewhat, when he takes on Riot: "Our chances are ZERO... Let's do this." He's brave and he's started to care about something other than himself (itself?)
Sure, he BARELY cares, (he almost sees Eddie like a pet lol), and a big part of him doing the right thing is for selfish reasons (he would like to eat people with no competition from other's of its kind) but you don't have to be perfect immediately to get some kind of redemption.
Also, Venom's not human, so him suddenly getting "humanity" and a set of values to match wouldn't be believable at all.
Is Venom a hero? No. I would argue it's not even an anti-hero...but Eddie definitely is. Venom is more like a tool, assistant, or asset. A vicious Jarvis hungry for human flesh. And apparently tater tots and chocolate 😆
I think one important aspect is deciding if your villain is a person or if your villain embodies a force of life (more mythic and wrestling with forces and ideas). If the villain represents chaos or tragedy or betrayal or some fundamental force like that, we intrinsically know we will never be rid of those forces in this life. That’s why when some movies (Disney is especially guilty) try too hard to show that EVERYONE is redeemable, it breaks down. Internally, we know that entropy is a part of life that can be staved off or managed or triumphed in spite of, but cannot be redeemed or made good. It’s a destructive force that is never anything but. To treat it as otherwise, can’t but come across as completely disconnected from reality and the human experience.
"Random genocide" is an oxymoron. It's not genocide if it's doesn't specifically target a group of people. What Thanos did was random mass murder, but not genocide.
Does he include himself in the 'random' choices?
Well I know one thing they definitely failed miserably at trying to do just that in Don't Breathe 2.
Lmfaoooo
The fact that you went out of your way to give Thanos these Zamasu motives is wild
Yeah right
Vegeta from Dragon Ball Z also ended up surviving his redemptiom arch, it was pretty unexpected for me and yet another reason why that show holds up so well in my opinion.
The movie was the best kind of "just ok", the unexpected kind that elevates it to good
Just so you guys know - Venom hasn't been a villain in over 20 years. King in Black is easily his best storyline/arc too.
7:43 - to answer this question, this fits Catra from netflix SheRa, unlike most antiheros she does not get killed off, she gets to live and fight with the heros. I love this because it shows (if we hopefully get another season or maybe a movie) that there will be some post development, as in how will some people she affected react with her? How will she apoliges? How will she go on?
I loved the Venom film so much that I wrote an essay about character archetypes using it. Venom being the anti hero, Eddie/venom being opposite pairs, and Anne being Mother Nature(Eddie ruined her career but she cares about his well being so much that still checks up on him and isn’t phased by the whole situation)
3:33 gosh I love Bucky wanting to redeem himself
I think there should be something of a 'bucking of the trend' here of villains finding redemption through self-sacrifice, yeah. Nothing necessarily wrong with it, but it has been kind of done to death.
I believe venom bypasses a lot of this for one reason, the writers intentionally left venom isolated and for the most part innocent of any real acts of wrongdoing, leaving him in a guilty by thought innocent in action stage, making fans see no real reason to find him irredeemable. I love this movie, but I still agree it's almost impossible to effectively redeem a villain. I think a better example would be zemo from falcon and the winter soldier.
Even 616 Venom wasn’t a full villain. He never robbed a bank or tried to take over the world. He just really hated Spider-Man. This was especially prevalent when Carnage was introduced, and Venom was moved into “Lethal PROTECTOR”.
Great vid broski, watched it in 2x speed
it seems like nobody ever mention's peridot's redemption arc, it's not as good as Zuko's but I think it really works, it's kind of a deprograming arc, she learns that everything she's learned about humanity and about gem-kind is misinformed and wrong and it seems like people rarely mention it
That one actually works really well, I also like jasper's "just not being evil anymore". I think that's an interesting evil.
Venom did self-sacrifice like other redeemed villains. He just miraculously survived at the end. He's just luckier.
I really hope that Venom 2 will be good.
That didn't age well
I got bullied and teased a lot in Middle School and High School that cause me to do horrible things, I was really aggressive and I have autism and a mental health disability as a result, I had a messed up reputation, it's only Middle School and High School that I was really bad in, I was ignored, forgotten, depression, got bullied a lot, got teased a lot, lose control of my emotions, wants attention, to be notice, to be taken seriously, wants to be listened for once and a while, I been single for a really long time with no love experience cause girls bullied me and were mean to me that cause me to hate love forever and to hate myself, I knew relationships don't work out since I was 9 years old. I'm the type of person who doesn't get along with society, I must be an artsy and smart one. I act like nobody cares cause I'm emotional and have autism.
Middle School - I got bullied and teased a lot that caused me to be a bully and jerk to everybody, I once said I will shoot everyone in middle school, it did not go well, I almost got suspended, but did not, it's that moment that I realized I have autism.
High School - I also got bullied and teased a lot that caused me to be a bully and jerk to everybody, I got hospitalized for the first time and then twice in my final year in high school after I snapped and bite a student's arm and got arrested by the police in May 2018, then I said I want to commit suicide and got taken to the ambulance, away from my high school, that's the last they seen of me. it's that moment that I realized I have a mental health disability.
Do you think I will be redeemed, despite my past, reputation and mistakes?
I can name a bunch of villains who redeemed themselves without needing to die
Everyone knew the Zuko clips were coming
Zuko survived his redemption arc and it would have been nice if Jet also survived his redemption arc
Catra survives her redemption arc in She-Ra and the Princesses of Power
Man, I have such a hard time engaging with this video because I hate the tone of the venom movies.
But that’s really it. You have a solid point that, in spite of the things I don’t like, they did build a compelling story yet brings venom from just being a villain to being a proper anti hero.
I liked the Venom movie it wasn’t perfect but I truly enjoyed my time watching the movie. I don’t regret watching it or spending 20 dollars.
You made the villain movie sound better than what it actually was
I mean.... Catra , Zuko and Peridot could it
Don't know why but redemption arc of Vegita is very close to my heart.
Well, it happens more often in anime\manga and videogames by Eastern developers. It's all rooted in the difference between types of storytelling. West tends to focus on outer struggels, when East - on inner ones.
Other than the one that I have mentioned in the Reply for your Comment. I'd say some Villain's on the show Once Upon A Time had Pretty Solid Arcs, such as The Snow Queen and The Wicked Witch or King Author, since there Redemption Arc aside from The Wicked Witch\s only lasted one Seasonal Arc whish is Usually Half a Season and they did not survive after that I did not think it was worth mentioning. And aside from them maybe Magneto from the X Men Films and Death Stroke from the CW's Arrow show.
Forgot to directly mention Zuko even though you showed him
Venom was the best way to reintroduce him to the series after Sam Raimi's destruction.
I'm one of the rare few who enjoyed Tophers Venom over Toms lol But, I think the PS5 Spider-Man 2 Venom will be better than both
Don't blame Raimi, blame Sony for forcing him to shove the character in.
Ben Linus from "Lost" is one of my favorite villains due to his redemption arc.
I want new villains turned heroes
1. Luna girl and Motsuki (PJ masks)
2. Princess Morbucks (the powerpuff girls)
3. Mary Louise Dahl (Batman franchise)
4. Doctor Eggman (Sonic the hedgehog)
5. Livewire (Superman franchise)
6. Hacker (cyberchase)
My two favorite fictional characters of all time (Zuko and Venom) both start as villains and become heroes (or an antihero in Venom’s case).
Absolutely. The problem is, who's categorizing them? For instance, I never percieved Magneto as a villain, even when he was labeled as such. I saw a man who survived unimaginable evil only to see that same evil bubbling up against another group of people. In the end, judge for yourself.
I think Jaime Lannister (particularly in the book version of game of thrones) is on the way to becoming one of the best redemption arcs in narrative history. He’s being forced to confront his family’s crimes in the Riverlands without his father or nephew to hide behind and assign blame to. Separated from Cersei, he’s developing agency and his own sense of morality. Although I do believe the best end for him would be a self-sacrifice while killing his twin, I think his development along the way shifts that sacrifice away from the trend of creators having their redeemed villains killed honorably or in a self-sacrifice to a more nuanced type of death that any character can have
Negan from Walking dead fits the role. Survive the end through his redemption ark. In the show, he even became one of the most rooted character and probably have the most screen time after Daryl!
A villain that survives their redemption arc is Negan from The Walking Dead.
I think you missed a point in why they were able to pull it off. If it weren't for the other antagonists in the movie, who were both revealed in the very beginning and later in the movie (the other symbiote), there would have been a lot of more negative focus on venom. The positions of these villains as the movie starts also matters; as dangerous, powerful, and villainy venom is, he was trapped and essentially controlled by other bad guys, so he wasn't seen so much as a villain on his own, only as a villain's tool. He was only introduced as a villain when he became part of the protagonist, and was not seen as completely bad even when acting against the protagonist, because well, he was part of him. There's a lot of factors that one can use to their benefit when trying to give a villain a redemption arc, even outside the villain's scope. Amazing video though, made me wanna watch venom again
Orochimaru in Naruto was able to live after his redemption story, although he definitely didn't deserve it.