Magnus Controversy! Recap and Game Analysis
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- Опубліковано 12 жов 2023
- Check out Ben's Chessable courses here! www.chessable.com/author/BenF... 2023 Qatar Masters, Round 2
GM Alisher Suleymenov vs GM Magnus Carlsen
Clip with Ben and Karen [10-12-2023]
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So it sounds like it’s relatively easy to gain a psychological advantage over Magnus by doing anything you can think of which might give him the impression you potentially have an opportunity to cheat, irrespective of whether or not you’re actually cheating.
Like literally wear a friendship bracelet. He'll be like "Monica? Monica?? What does that mean?"
Someone should wear like a handmade decoration watch out of cardboard but Magnus wont be allowed to see what is inside to grow his suspicion.
I'll just retie my shoe like 30 times during the game and easily crush the highest rated player of all time.
Anish giri said something similar, magnus loses confidence when you start playing like an engine(in your prep) that's why he loves to get people into unknown territory as much as possible.
If a chess player is troubled by the presence of a mechanical watch then a visit to a psychologist or a psychiatrist is in order. The bottom line is that Kramnik and Carlssen are trying to justify every loss with cheating claims. They are losing their credibility pretty fast.
"Barely a GM" would be a good name for a tournament. Only GMs under 2600 with a good sense of humor would be invited.
Somehow Hikaru comes out the loser in all this. Pretty, pretty good
Found Larry David
Why so?
For reference, the watch he was using is an analogue watch with a transparent caseback. The tournament regulations are standard for FIDE Level 2 events so electronic devices are banned. A bluetooth connection would require an electronic device so wearing any watch that would allow that would result in a forfeit.
There will be clocks on the wall. Why does anyone need a watch? Just ban any metallic object except things like pacemakers.
@@marcrob100 Ban pacemakers also. lol
It was also the size of a small moon ... and that could be seen either way (like why draw attention to it - on the other hand with something so big it's easier to fit 'extra' things in it...).
People are saying there video evidence of him fiddling/fidgeting with it and pushing buttons, which isn't going to do him any favours either.
Best take ive heard, people also ignoring Magnus brings these things up occasionally and it just isnt a big story because there wasn’t the additional drama of him losing a game,
I'm just glad FIDE had the good sense to base their ruling on what Ben and Karen said. FIDE also said always play BF1 and KnifeF5 and etc., but mostly etc.
Very suspicious. Magnus played a lot of engine moves.
Lol 🐴
Tradition to watch Ben's reaction when we're in the midst of some spicy drama!
considering a 5 second stream delay, and taking phones at the door during play would totally solve the problem, it's weird.
Whats the drama here anyhow?
@@ludomirsteinbruck9376some guy wore a mechanical watch. Unacceptable!
because rating isn't really a linear scale, going from 2500 to 2800 is not the same as like between 1500-1800.
(it gets VERY hard to gain rating when you are 2700+, because the other players are so good, and you start to gain diminishing returns with wins, and losing rating with draws.)
70% of registered GMs are below 2500. Of course many aren't active but it tells you how difficult it is to get to 2600+ let alone staying at 2500.
And Magnus hasn't lost to a
@@abcxyz-py8ui Well a 2500 would beat Magnus about 10% of the statistically, which isn't that crazy at all. It really depends how often Magnus plays people 2500, which is almost never, which Ben alluded to in this video.
They love playing Rufus and Doofus as long as it's not on their name though. They call it speed running. Some people can have their cake and eat it too.
One of the things I'd be interested in is that, since other engines, esp NNs like Leela that think more "creatively" than SF and similar, perhaps "engine moves" will start getting a lot harder to detect...
It'd be interesting to see how people will try to combat/detect that
New versions of Stockfish also use NNs for evaluation
I find it biased that people say ope he didn't play an engine move its not cheating. Only a bad cheater would do every move. The mating attack was quite complicated. Only one or two moves are needed from an engine to win as well as maybe some ok's on human moves to give the ok that they are still winning. It's not rocket science.
Something I was thinking too!
Nice Karen finding the winning move.
Ben with the best take out there, as usual.
true
very true
very very true
very very very true
The truth hurts
If I ever was in a chess tournament, I certainly wouldn't be walking arround with watches and smart phones even if it was allowed. For me it's odd that some people feel comfortable to do that, and it's very natural to feel suspicious of them.
Magnus was beaten like he was at the receiving end of Levon’s grind.
23:15 Ben speaks nothing but facts. These Top 20 Super GMs seem way more interested in coming to well documented drawn positions against each other to artificially inflate their ratings than they are in playing against the masses.
well draws are net 0 so they dont really inflate their elo with that.
and 2800 against 2500 even 9.5/10 would lose elo.
Yup, things need to change. Artificially keeping elo by staying in a little club of top players is ridiculous.
@@fintan9218 it's every top spots of elo ladder. Especially when they are not many games played.
Once you are there you rather wanna play unrated or not at all and if you play cutting your losses as much as possible, that's usually with draws.
The lower rated players on the other hand are incentivised to take those draws because they actually getting good elo out of it.
The good thing if you wanna get there you will be able to get there if you have the skills, so it's not like they gate keeping anyone out of their top 10 club.
@@mauer1 Yes. It is rating inflation because every game they draw against each other is a game they are not playing against lower rated players.
And to your other point, so what. Grandmasters in the past played all comers. If you are a 2800 player there really is not an excuse to lose against a 2500. Well, I guess there is if he was wearing a watch. LOL.
@@nickadt you can just have another reason to have a bad day.
Its not inflating the elo they had to get their in the first hand.
Winning against lower elo players is more of elo inflating than drawing each other.
Fun fact: in some dialects of Arabic, the Qatar hero pun works even better because the Q / ق can be pronounced as “g”
In the middle of the hall, with his head hung low
Felt a buzz on his wrist, then he knew for sure
That one cavalier, felt good in his hand
Didn’t take long, to understand
Just one little horsey, slung way down low,
Was a one way ticket, only one way to go
So he started crushing, to the ticking of his watch
Gotta keep on crushing, that boy’s gonna take down the dude at the top
And be a Qatar Hero, with a knight to g5
He’s a Qatar Hero, highly suspicious, not very nice
Yeah a Qatar Hero, Magnus has lost his mind
Qatar Hero, thanks to his Seiko, he’ll come alive
Incredible.
kek, whats the original?
This is either the result of way too much free time…or it’s genius. Also @tophbbq huge fan of your melee content. Always excited for your videos to drop.
Hey Ben, great analysis. I actually thought Magnus would play Bf8 followed by Ne7, but that's because I expected him to go for the pawn break d5. But I'm low-rated so I assume that wouldn't have worked out? What do you think?
On behalf of Ben -- Thank you for your reaction
I answered Knight G5 and I’m thrilled about it
Brilliant game!
The dude confidently sacrificed a rook to put the beatdown on Carlsen.
Qb3 looks totally natural to me, looking at Qh3.
After the rook was sacced he was obviously winning without much material investment, just a free attack.
But yeah, Ng5 wouldn't have occurred to me.
Incredible game. Legendary crush!
The game was analysed by Agamastor and Magnus had no escape whatsoever. Pretty much all possible moves lead to a crushing defeat.
Thanks for sharing this video, I think you made your points well and I tend to agree with most of what you said
I'm not a competitive chess player and I've never attended a tournament, but if it is generally frowned upon to wear a watch during play, and my chess legend opponent cares enough about it to complain to an arbiter, then I'm just taking it off...but I guess GMs are cut from different cloth
I want to add even more and that is just because in this example Magnus plays badly should not automatically remove suspicion.There is a VERY good possibility that magnus also was under constant engine move pressure that it took him out of his comfort level.I can't see how ANY player if under constant engine move pressure could possibly play at his very best.
If you told me one of the players made moves that were more computer like and slightly suspicious... I would have said it was Magnus. I just don't understand what he was doing.
i'd have to imagine he saw h6 Nf7 when he played Ng5. Maybe he was just an attacking sorta player looking for attacking moves and started calculating Ng5 seriously. As you said, it doesn't make sense to just go back to Nf3 after h6.
That's an important point too, playstyle comes into question way more against lower rated players, and it's possible that magnus didn't have intel on the guy and took a wrong strategy from the start xD
Thank You, Ben. This is the set of takes on this game that I have been waiting for... Magnus was Clearly in bad form and his opponent showed the chess world what ANY Grandmaster is capable of doing when they are given these kinds of positional opportunities.
Also, the fact that Magnus does the right thing and periodically plays these open tournaments that are dangerous to his rating was noticed here... and in those situations, Magnus can definitely reach a kind of overwhelm ... and it's at that point where anything could push him over the edge. I wonder how Many FIDE Hard Rules were violated during that game and previous games.
I have basically infinite respect for Magnus AND THIS CHANNEL. It just does my Heart Good to see you showing such a deep understanding of where Magnus is coming from. I don't remember being more Happy after seeing a UA-cam video ❤
Yeah, he blundered in the worst possible way that allowed his opponent end the game tactically, and quickly.
What we need is a course on how to Grok the kf7 sac. How can we see that's good?
first you have to be a 2500 GM
Magnus said it was raining outside
Magnus was 100% correct. Watches should be banned and smart phones should not be allowed in the hall. Whether Magnus won or lost makes no difference. Those should be the rules.
Yeah but they aren’t in this tournament, and it isn’t Carlsen’s prerogative to dictate how organisers run their events, if he wasn’t happy why play it? And again the point remains that Carlsen only took issue with it after a bad day OTB. I mean he WON this tournament, right (?) so he must of been aware of the playing environment. And to be fair the organisers clamped down on the playing area crowds after the first round. Is there a name for horological phobias? I think Carlsen was right to raise his issues with the arbiters but tweeting about it was in bad form, a simple congratulations to his opponent might have been the classier move in public. He does come off, again, as a sore loser.
@@carlkligerman1981 So is this a tournament or not? Are you stupid?
Sure, but it would have been better to voice these complaints discretely to the tournament organizer, or if he ha done it after he had won in round 1. The way he did it know is disrespectful towards his opponent.
@@carlkligerman1981 No it's not prerogative 😂
@@carlkligerman1981 I agree, event organisers should run their events incredibly poorly.
Thanks god GM Ben isn't doing the cheat detection. Players that always just pick one of the top moves are easily caught. But I think he said that weaker engines may be used to make chess detection harder so he's not wrong all the time. If he was always right, he must be cheating... 🤔
a 2500 GM is not a bad person to do cheat detection (on a 2500ish player). With a sample size of a single game gut instinct is as good as any other method. It a very small sample. Every GM would say there's only 3-4 moves in the game that are even interesting and given most of those 3-4 moves all fit together with a plan that a human can understand then we should probably believe GMs who say they think there's no reason to be suspicious.
IF most GMs think there's no reason to think there's suspicious because there's never going to be 100% one way or the other.
@@ribbonsofnight did you watch the video? He was like "this is a sus move, this move too... but he didn't play that really sus move". My point is that when cheaters cheat consistently, their cheating is veeeery easy to detect. I know that GM Ben indeed is a GM but he made a very weak point here, discrediting himself. But as long as the audience is happy, I am kinda happy for him. Just seeing him more and more as a comediam rather than a serious chess person.
@@ribbonsofnight Like GM Ben himself I can't stress enough to his tough students that I don't say that white cheated in that game. Carlsen played horribly and mustn't lose so fast even against some engine. But GM Ben seems to only address the really bad cheaters who barely can read chess notation and just pick the first line the engine spits out. These guys are formidable cheating detection targets.
lol@@paulgoogol2652
One more reason that there is rating inflation together with all the other reasons.
The point that Kramnik and Fabi and a few others super GMs have mentioned several times is that for a decent player/ cheater it is neither necessary nor advisable to play a computer move every time, only in a very few difficult choice type situations. Fabi mentioned during his broadcast that even one hint during the game can make a 2600 play like 2800,. That the key issue. Once you achieved a decisive advantage it makes no sense to play like a computer and attract attention when a normal "human" move wins. Does it prove that the white cheated here? Of course, not! But it makes analysis by Finegold of the last few moved, the refrain "this is not a computer move" kind of meaningless.
I mean, you can also argue that he started playing human moves after his position was completely crushing already. I'm not saying he cheated, but according to your analysis, he played the not human moves when he needed to, then he started playing more human moves when many moves were winning according to the engine.
The guy probably didn't cheat, but Magnus complaints seem reasonable to me. No delay, a watch and people walking around with smarphones, it's more than enough for someone to cheat, if he wants to. The childish thing is that he tweeted about it right after losing
But he did complain about it during the game to the arbiter but...since it wasn't a "smartwatch", it's fine 😂
He also said that only the combination of the two knight moves are really unusual for a GM. That's a very small sample size.
if you cheat as a grand master obviously you don't play the engine move every time. Just some key moves where there is a great improvement for your side.
Ben, please review the Hans Fabi game
Great video by Ben, especially the insight about the chess ecosystem in the latter part.
I don't think Ben said it but wasn't the queens Indian defense exposed by alpha zero or one of those computers?
lots of things are bad according to engines. If you want to maintain your rating against booked up 2500s you need to avoid draws and that can mean playing interesting moves that the engine says are bad.
so top players purposefully don't play against lower level GMs because they don't want to lose their ranking? that would mean that they will become more familiar with their opponents since they will always play the same opponents at the top. To me that makes the game less interesting because you can kind of tell what will happen.
It's same like playing ranking games, e.g. on Street Fighter, Tekken, Mortal Kombat if u get matched up with someone 100s of ranking points below u, are u gonna play em again? Knowing u might lose up to 100 ranking points!!!!! U don't 're match and block em, especially if u lost to em 🤣😂
Before yesterday, I never saw a chess player (of any level) TOUCH REPEATEDLY his watch during after and before any single move!...
G.M. Ben Finegold commenting on a chess move quoting Shakespeare's MacBeth (act five) is the touch of class you don't expect
Timestamp?
@@zeni2432minute 16.58 - Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of Sound and Fury, signifing Nothing"
Brilliant video and commentary of the elite chess scene
Qb3 was the first move that came to my mind.
Excellent vid by the legendary Ben "Min-Fin" Finegold
like "you can put a device in a mechanical watch" sure you could put a device under your shirt or up your butt we're not banning that, it's an article of clothing, feels like anna rudolf and lipstickgate more than anything
0:05 - strong opening, Mr Finegold...
It's always hilarious when Ben ambushes Karen with the most random questions. Anyway I agree with everything, and then some.
it is actually incorrect to say that Magnus would lose rating points if he scored 9/10, although it is difficult to gain such a score against such a player. With 9/10 he would gain approx 3 points given the current rating difference. With 8.5/10 he would lose points (and that would be a score of plus 7.)
When I analyzed this game, I was really surprised that this Qb8, Rc8 stuff is okay to play, the position already looks really bad there to my eyes. Stockfish says black is doing okay, but what is even the idea here, what are you playing for?
lots of moves are "fine" because an engine assumes you'll start playing perfect any moment now. Remember at some point a pawn down for nothing can become a dead draw. every mediocre move brings you closer to being in a losing position according to the engine even if it says all zeros.
If cheating is an issue and the organization isnt enforcing the rules then there is a chance other rules are being broken. Players should be focusing on their games rather than having to worry about other's incompetence
you could put a device anywhere these days. Especially with this kind of of opponent, nobody is gonna pat down a kid haha
Guy in the chat saying Qb3 is not an attacking move when it puts pressure on the a2-g8 diagonal and gives the queen access to the f3 and h3 squares is just embarrassing... do people even think about the position before convincing themselves that the player cheated?
"Magnus didn't say his opponent cheated"....proceeds to analyze the game to determine if there was cheating.
Just because Magnus didn't say his opponent cheated doesn't mean that they didn't. They could still have cheated, hence why it was worth looking at the game to see.
e5 is very human, Magnus has a point but he forgets hes still playing a GM. Allthough hes right we need to be more aware of cheating during chess.
In retrospect, Alisher went on to lose 3 consecutive games after crushing Magnus as of today. Today he lost against an IM!
Definitely seemed like Alisher got his prep, a good position, and converted his advantage quickly and tactically. It happens, we would probably see it happen a fair bit if top players were at open tournaments often. Preparation is a powerful equalizer nowadays.
I get accused of being a Magnus fanboy all the time--I'm not, and I *do* think he's most likely paranoid / slowly losing his edge--but the way people argue that it's impossible/too hard to cheat in OTB just mystifies me. Give a professional magician a budget of thousands of dollars and I guarantee they could figure something out.
And I guarantee that some GMs are already doing it (just not stupidly / blatantly so they're caught.) Still don't believe me? Look up "thumpers". Or go read about inks that magicians and card cheats use that are almost impossible to see without specially colored/polarized contact lenses (and consider if the same principle could be used with a small, faint laser shining on a predetermined spot on a wall.) Would it be hard work to set up? Sure.... but not nearly as much work as spending 10 hours a day memorizing opening theory. Would it be expensive? Yeah. But it would be easily recouped in prize money. If it's a noisy playing area you don't even need to go that far; you can just do what the Astros did.
So even with strict usage of metal detectors, there are still plenty of ways to cheat. But with watches allowed in... that's just dumb, that's just beyond dumb. There are plenty of readymade magician props that look and function just like ordinary mechanical watches. It's so bizarre that so many people are pretending that the idea of OTB cheating is bizarre. I mean have you people even met, erm... humans before?
Acting like a smartass is easy lol . Say some bull and think you a genius . Of course people can cheat but they have their jobs and careers on the line . They have respect for the game they have played since young . Not everyone is living life in hypothetical scenarios like you are .Fucking magnus fanboys always defending him when he goes crying .
You have to be a good cheater though. If you just start winning every game playing tons of engine moves no ones going to play you just on suspicion alone, but I wouldn't be shocked if some people at high level chess are cheating in a careful manner.
@@billj4525 exactly. It could be as simple as binary indicators indicating things like "this is a critical move" / "there is a winning fancy tactic here."
There are smartwatches that look mechanical now. For people who want smartwatch but dont like smartwatch look.
27:13 much agreed
Well at least Magnus didn't try to ruin the guy's life with unfounded accusations of cheating like last time
And drop out of a round robin tournament after 2 rounds, ruining the whole event with 0 evidence of anything.
Is an analogue watch going to be able to tell someone what the best move is?
a modified analog watch used for cheating isn't an analog watch
Having a watch can also help you estimate your time remaining when away from the board....
Wow, I know for his fans Magnus is always right, but this is one hell of a reach
I could imagine that seeing a watch on somebody at that level of chess would be incredibly distracting
Magnus, playing a bad opening poorly before losing: "I'm not accusing my opponent of cheating, but he was wearing a watch and I'm a whiner."
I lost so much respect for him over the last year. What a tool.
White played several nonintuitive moves that were top engine moves, so it seems to me those are somewhat suspicious. That there were also nonengine moves doesn't remove the suspicion of cheating since the cheating strategy for GMs is not to cheat on every move, but only to cheat on a few key moves. However, black played several moves that amount to blunders at a GM level and had more impact on the game.
The only black piece that left the black's camp was the queen's knight and it got pinned the next move and captured after that... Carlsen DID play badly
MIDDLE!
I did see e5 i felt that was resonable
"the watch speaks for itself." ... Ben: "Magnus's opponent played Bb2, that's actually his name, Magnus's Opponent' ... Qb8" >>> Ben is probably the best Seated-Down comedian in the world :)
Magnus had some Hans PTSD ⌚⌚⌚
Hans be like watch out magzy I'm watching you lol
Electronic devices get ever smaller - a watch band may contain battery, antenna or more, and you can never know by the looks whether a wristwatch or any other device is really purely decorative or mechanic or hides communication devices, a cam, speakers, some signalling device. A Rolex is huge compared to the size of the electronics needed.
I am not interested in taking part in the discussion, but just want to point at the theoretical implications of technology.
You could not even be sure if the players had to play naked given the present capability and even less the future development.
You might put the into a Faraday cage which does not allow any EM signals to pass the walls and even then cheaters would find a way.
I remember Jurassic Park movie, when the expert says "life finds a way".
I have a simple solution: play chess only in parks and restaurants without the temptation of ratings and prize money.
If you were going to cheat with a vibrating watch, why not sew some tiny notification device into your shirt or your shoes? I can't see how banning all cheating is possible, all you can do is make the penalties severe and trust most players are honourable.
"Mad" Magnus ! Sad to see a great player end in paranoia. First the Neuman saga, now this. Time to call in the shrinks ...
Many superGM plays many engine moves in a game. It is easy for them and they are not cheating. Comparing human moves to engine moves is not a good basis for analysis.
If you do it randomly with no feel for the position. This doesn't really describe Ben's analysis.
Magnus is something like +12 since August 1st, and has gained 3 rating points. The truth hurts.
Huh?
@@captain_britain What part of that is confusing? The truth is it's almost impossible for him to gain much rating.
@@captain_britainHe means Magnus has won 12 more games than he lost but has only gained 3 rating points because his rating is too high.
Well, it's always hard when you're 2840, and that's exactly why he has no chance of ever hitting 2900. It's also why he prefers playing higher rated players like Ben mentioned.
chess in the old days was better, GM's should play everyone
The thing is that the rating systems will mean that top GMs playing players much lower rated will have a big risk losing ratings points(like Ben said, even if you have 9W1L you lose points), and for chess players rating is really an important part of their life...
@@bolinsun9565 the top players playing amongst themselves creates a false economy, if in reality they are scared of the possibility of losing to a lower GM. Also the top guys having to play the lower guys gives the opportunity to the lower GMs to pit themselves against the top, and maybe demystify the gap between the top and mere GM status
@@Socrates... They just think it's not worth it and that's understandable, although for sure it leads to us spectators missing some potentially brilliant encounters like this one.
@@Socrates... Plus, although some much lower-rated GMs can play well as in this particular game, there are way too many games where those "underdog" players just make you feel like "wtf how can you not see this coming" so tbh I don't think we miss out too much
All watches should be banned, now why on Earth you want to wear a watch to a Chess tournament? It could be modified so I agree with Magus this time.
same as with hans,there also magnus played terrible..magnus thinks he can win any game,but when u play so bad than no
Completely agree, that kid is a Qatar Hero
he found ideal squares for all his pieces
it was like linares 91 with gary's pieces all squished in the corner
gotdayum
I made the mistake of drinking water when Ben said "Qatar Hero" and now I need to clean my screen.
This was NOT a safe space for Magnus ;_;
Now you know what it's like when a gun has a gun
Magnus too busy watching Eric Rosen's game?
There is no controversy. Just improper judging leading to false accusations.
Top GMs playing in closed circuits is called "RATING INBREEDING"
Or rather is just called highest level of chess 😂
@@bolinsun9565 then why are they worried about playing lower rated players like they used to?
@@fintan9218 Because even 9W1L loses rating points, which they deem not worth it
Ng5 was my first candidate move in that position. Now seeing all the followup after Nxf7 is not possible more of an intuitive tal like sacrafice. For me the most suspicious move was Qb3 but it still makes sense removing your queen from the x-ray. This guy didn't cheat in my opinion Magnus played a bad game.
"A Qatar hero" haha somewhere the dry humor judges are satisfied.
The kid played well, but not suspicious. Magnus just played badly.
Hmm magnus should not have told he is worried about the watch, he has revealed his weakness. Now every one of his opponents start wearing watch 🤣🤣
I mean wearing a watch is lit against the rules lol so I doubt it
My conclusion: chess is hard
Magnus is slowly following in the footsteps of old Bobby.
That first pun though. He is a Qatar hero because he best Magnus handily. Oooofff
21:41 Lol, he didn't cheat, cos even u found the move 🤣😘😂😗😚
Hika-rage needs therapy.
What is the percentage of engine moves that the IM played?
None. Because they were both GM's
If someone cheats they would cheat 2,3,4 mives not more
it's so simple, if you don't like the rules, complain before the tournament. If you don't notice before, complain after the tournament. Don't do it exactly after you lost against somebody.
U are stupid. Magnus did complain about it before or during the game also...but the arbiter said it was fine since it's not a smartwatch
He complained before he lost.
Magnus wins: Great game
Magnus loses: There were cheaters!
Nice game by Alisher, and a weak game by Magnus. He blundered, and worse he blundered in a way that allowed a young player to flex tactical calculation. A recipe to get crushed quickly.
It's like saying "I am not racist, BUT..."