As art to evangelize, provided the form is respectful: Ok As an Icon to be venerated in a church or personally: No I'm reminded of something I once heard a priest say regarding this that went something like this. "I can't condemn it If it brings even one soul to Christ."
@The Doge Saint then you reject how the Church has always evangelized to its time and place. Youd find more in common with traditionalist roman catholics that worship latin with this attitude
@The Doge Saint He/she is right, though. Rejecting the use of local language in The Church is like discrediting the work of the apostles. They evangelised throughout the world not using their language, but the local languages. If St. Thomas preached The Gospel in India using Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek only, there wouldn't be Orthodox Church in India because Indians doesn't speak Aramaic, Hebrew nor Greek. Indian people should've been fluent in Aramaic or Greek by now if St. Thomas only evangelised Indians using his language, but none of Indian Orthodox Christians in Kerala are fluent in Greek or Aramaic. St. Frumentius, a Greek-speaking missionary, wouldn't have succeeded converting the king of Ethiopia in the 4th century if he only use Greek. The Church wasn't formed to call people of certain language or to speak in a certain language. Even Jesus said, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations." So, to make all nations understand, The Gospel has to be spread with various languages. If you're rejecting the use of local language for liturgy, you're not that different than moslems. Islam was spread by forcing everyone to use Arabic in their prayers/services because Islam was spread by an Arabic man.
If we look into Japanese Orthodox Churches... they have a lot different style... is this really much different for them to use manga style, if a realistic style is allowed in modern Russia? Wait... Icons? Not drawings? Oh no... at least not now xD
Dude, the tea ceremony here could totally be Christianized. Especially the aspect of it where you turn the cup to show the most beautiful side to the person you are serving because "you always give the best to others"
Manga is commercial therefore it should be treated as such. Just like Christian movies, they can be entertaining but using them in worship would be going too far.
In my opinion, the word you're looking for regarding why high level japanese art is acceptable for iconography is "reverant". Its beauty and elegance expresses a reverance for the subject being depicted that is a clear match for iconography, in my opinion.
Interesting question, I like your answer but I think here the best thing would be to follow the lead of the Japanese Orthodox Churches? Another question I've had which is tangential to this: is it okay to be discerning in the artistic style and quality of an icon? Let's say I wanted an icon of Saint Constantine, but I wanted one that appealed most to me visually as opposed to getting an icon more easily available? Should we be picky?
They are the sort of thing that translates well to use in proselytizing, so I am in favour of them so long as they are not pornographic, suggestive or overly heretical. They can also be used to create a climate or social environment favourable to the faith. Serious engagement with faith is all fine and dandy if one is brought up in it. However that is increasingly rare and as such it is useful to motivate people make themselves informed in topics they might not find very interesting. Propaganda is very valuable, people complain that that those brought in through such a pipeline are poorly informed, fanatical or are not very introspective, but such issues can be corrected where as the faithless can't be corrected unless into faith. Personally I feel that modern Christianity could do with some more fanaticism, there is a point at which timidity passes into facilitation and after that into complicity. But then again much of the fanaticism I see is directed into stupidity so maybe not.
imo they’re just to be used as and seen as art, not icons i don’t have a problem with artistic interpretation of holy things, they can just be a separate thing from icons and it’s cool in my view
The principle of offering your best to God shows through here. Offering a simplistic, mass-produced form of art, especially one used for lots of rather tasteless content, is and ought to be offensive. However, as you said, a well-made traditional art style that evokes a sense of reverence is appropriate as an offering to God.
What if the only art style you know is semi-realism or manga? What if that IS your best? I'm not saying you can't learn other art styles, but as an artist I can say it's pretty difficult. I started drawing semi-realism (that leans more towards manga than comic style) back in 2014 and I'm finally happy with my quality of work. The semi-realistic and manga styles SEEM simplistic and easy, but they really aren't. It takes a long time and a lot of work. Once you get the hang of it, then yes, you can "mass-produce" it, but it takes a team to truly mass-produce it. No, you shouldn't be selling religious works drawn in the manga style, but for personal worship in your own house, as long as that is your best I really don't see how it's offensive to God.
On a serious note, if Japan were to finally be Christened and we saw the rise of the Orthodox Church of Japan (how great would that be), the art styles associated with Japan and its history and culture as exemplified by artists like Hokusai probably actually would be rather appropriate for use in icons.
I am not sure that a manga icon has broad enough appeal to be adopted, it is a rather niche style. Ethiopian iconography is very unique and many would consider it to have a cartoon-like quality. Later Russian icons became very westernized and realistic compared to what most people think of as “traditional”. However I think more traditional Japanese art icons in a traditional Japanese setting would be fascinating.
I think as long as it follows the rules set forth for iconography there is nothing inherently wrong about manga/anime icons. I personally wouldn’t hang one up in my icon corner to use in prayer but to each their own.
I agree that it shouldn’t be used in worship and I’d add it’s not for veneration. However, as an artistic experiment? As long as the source material is treated with due respect I don’t see an issue with it. I can totally see a manga artist who’s Orthodox saying “I wonder what an icon of the Last Judgement or Ladder of Divine Ascent would look like in manga style” and doing it just see where that concept would go artistically, as long as they don’t venerate it. Perhaps it would be safer to copy icons that aren’t really for veneration: like the icon I have of the Last Judgment. The seller said that because it shows demons dragging people to hell in one corner that it is to be used for instruction or remembrance only, not to be venerated.
It's hard to accept, but I think it's fine to make it in manga style, but don't call it an icon or Christian icon, just like we won't call DaVinci's Last Supper an icon. Just call it an illustration or a painting & don't place it in a Church, so others won't venerate it & take it as a canonical icon. Also it's fine as long as it repects the persons depicted in icons, like not changing their clothings (would be absurd to see St. John the Baptist in a superhero costume), changing their poses (would be utterly disrespectful to change ICXC hand signs to 👍 or ✌️), or changing the basic colours (would also be disrespectful to change Jesus' clothes colour to rainbow colour because we all know the colour of Jesus clothes in icons have a spiritual & dogmatic meaning). Take it as nothing more than just a piece of art.
Could someone explain the short comment regarding forbiding the depiction of Christ as the Lamb of God to me? I don't seem to understand it. I'm a Roman Catholic.
The idea of "just be respectful and don't use it in worship" is a non-starter to me. People call them "anime ICONS". Not anime-style depictions of Mary, or manga-style depictions of Christ, but they are actively called icons. Since God is worthy of worship, any depiction of Christ in something resembling an icon is going to be regarded as a type of icon. I agree with Bojan, we have to be clay here.
How is using icons to worship the same as using your bible to worship? I don't bow to my bible and kiss it.. so I don't get how it's the same thing. Can anyone explain:))
They aren't pinnacles... Could one do a Kubuki Passion of the Christ, then? ...I felt dirty writing that. Probably answers my question. To be honest, traditional Japanese Art would be pretty cool for Christian artwork.
I might be what you call "evangelical." On the topic of Icons I think the disconnect is between educated and well traveled people knowing what they are for, and folks that just don't prefer that kind of thing not knowing what there for but being very "passionate." I like Orthodoxy and have even attended services and recognize this distinction. Ps. If your a "passionate" orthodox please don't attack me for being evangelical.
The Orthodox Church does not permit the use of artificial contraception, unless in extraordinary cases where it is used as a medicinal or when pregnancy can cause death.
Orthodoxy isn't as legalistic as catholicism. The use of contraceptives is between the couple and the priest. Obviously, contraceptives aren't used because not wanting children / seeking pleasure. As not even natural family planning is allowed in Orthodoxy. But only used in extreme cases, for health issues, physical or maybe mental.
Weird how the 7th Ecumenical Council didnt talk about this...
Yes, but the sebensu ekyumenikyaru kounseru did.
“It’s not anime icons, it’s manga icons…” is a hilarious starting point
Don't say you love the Veggie Tales anime if you haven't read the Bible Manga.
@@siegeheavenly3601 amen
As art to evangelize, provided the form is respectful: Ok
As an Icon to be venerated in a church or personally: No
I'm reminded of something I once heard a priest say regarding this that went something like this.
"I can't condemn it If it brings even one soul to Christ."
@The Doge Saint then you reject how the Church has always evangelized to its time and place. Youd find more in common with traditionalist roman catholics that worship latin with this attitude
@The Doge Saint if you reject the use of local languages you stand against the Church, simple as.
@The Doge Saint He/she is right, though. Rejecting the use of local language in The Church is like discrediting the work of the apostles. They evangelised throughout the world not using their language, but the local languages. If St. Thomas preached The Gospel in India using Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek only, there wouldn't be Orthodox Church in India because Indians doesn't speak Aramaic, Hebrew nor Greek. Indian people should've been fluent in Aramaic or Greek by now if St. Thomas only evangelised Indians using his language, but none of Indian Orthodox Christians in Kerala are fluent in Greek or Aramaic.
St. Frumentius, a Greek-speaking missionary, wouldn't have succeeded converting the king of Ethiopia in the 4th century if he only use Greek.
The Church wasn't formed to call people of certain language or to speak in a certain language. Even Jesus said, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations." So, to make all nations understand, The Gospel has to be spread with various languages.
If you're rejecting the use of local language for liturgy, you're not that different than moslems. Islam was spread by forcing everyone to use Arabic in their prayers/services because Islam was spread by an Arabic man.
I have the power of God and anime on my side.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
Pure AIDS.
This channel is a breath of fresh air badly needed after only finding the smug or the complete pagan "Orthodox" channels.
who be pagan?
like who?
Pray for our smug brothers and the heretics.
If we look into Japanese Orthodox Churches... they have a lot different style... is this really much different for them to use manga style, if a realistic style is allowed in modern Russia?
Wait... Icons? Not drawings? Oh no... at least not now xD
I’ve seen a lot of realistic icons, which look like paintings, so, I guess, it’s allowed
Dude, the tea ceremony here could totally be Christianized. Especially the aspect of it where you turn the cup to show the most beautiful side to the person you are serving because "you always give the best to others"
Dude you could totally take Ukiyo-e paintings and Iconize them :)
I loved your explanation to evangelicals why and how you use icons in worship.
Manga is commercial therefore it should be treated as such. Just like Christian movies, they can be entertaining but using them in worship would be going too far.
In my opinion, the word you're looking for regarding why high level japanese art is acceptable for iconography is "reverant". Its beauty and elegance expresses a reverance for the subject being depicted that is a clear match for iconography, in my opinion.
Interesting question, I like your answer but I think here the best thing would be to follow the lead of the Japanese Orthodox Churches?
Another question I've had which is tangential to this: is it okay to be discerning in the artistic style and quality of an icon? Let's say I wanted an icon of Saint Constantine, but I wanted one that appealed most to me visually as opposed to getting an icon more easily available? Should we be picky?
I've wondered the same.
i do not believe it should be called icons, they're just art.
They are the sort of thing that translates well to use in proselytizing, so I am in favour of them so long as they are not pornographic, suggestive or overly heretical. They can also be used to create a climate or social environment favourable to the faith.
Serious engagement with faith is all fine and dandy if one is brought up in it. However that is increasingly rare and as such it is useful to motivate people make themselves informed in topics they might not find very interesting. Propaganda is very valuable, people complain that that those brought in through such a pipeline are poorly informed, fanatical or are not very introspective, but such issues can be corrected where as the faithless can't be corrected unless into faith. Personally I feel that modern Christianity could do with some more fanaticism, there is a point at which timidity passes into facilitation and after that into complicity.
But then again much of the fanaticism I see is directed into stupidity so maybe not.
imo they’re just to be used as and seen as art, not icons
i don’t have a problem with artistic interpretation of holy things, they can just be a separate thing from icons and it’s cool in my view
No.
Anathema!!!
Got confused, now I have questions about enemy icons
Honestly I though you would talk about some anime with Christian motifs in a good sense, like Dororo, Vatican Kiseki Chousakan or Trapp Family Story.
Sorry 😁💁♂️
The principle of offering your best to God shows through here. Offering a simplistic, mass-produced form of art, especially one used for lots of rather tasteless content, is and ought to be offensive. However, as you said, a well-made traditional art style that evokes a sense of reverence is appropriate as an offering to God.
What if the only art style you know is semi-realism or manga? What if that IS your best? I'm not saying you can't learn other art styles, but as an artist I can say it's pretty difficult. I started drawing semi-realism (that leans more towards manga than comic style) back in 2014 and I'm finally happy with my quality of work. The semi-realistic and manga styles SEEM simplistic and easy, but they really aren't. It takes a long time and a lot of work. Once you get the hang of it, then yes, you can "mass-produce" it, but it takes a team to truly mass-produce it.
No, you shouldn't be selling religious works drawn in the manga style, but for personal worship in your own house, as long as that is your best I really don't see how it's offensive to God.
If it is your best, then God will Definitely accept it and be pleased.
On a serious note, if Japan were to finally be Christened and we saw the rise of the Orthodox Church of Japan (how great would that be), the art styles associated with Japan and its history and culture as exemplified by artists like Hokusai probably actually would be rather appropriate for use in icons.
Bojan not even looking at the camera the whole video
I am not sure that a manga icon has broad enough appeal to be adopted, it is a rather niche style.
Ethiopian iconography is very unique and many would consider it to have a cartoon-like quality.
Later Russian icons became very westernized and realistic compared to what most people think of as “traditional”.
However I think more traditional Japanese art icons in a traditional Japanese setting would be fascinating.
This will lead to a great schism in fifty years
I think as long as it follows the rules set forth for iconography there is nothing inherently wrong about manga/anime icons. I personally wouldn’t hang one up in my icon corner to use in prayer but to each their own.
Wow, at last. Being weeb and striving to be Christian for like 8 years, and now we review these drawings from Christian side
I agree that it shouldn’t be used in worship and I’d add it’s not for veneration. However, as an artistic experiment? As long as the source material is treated with due respect I don’t see an issue with it. I can totally see a manga artist who’s Orthodox saying “I wonder what an icon of the Last Judgement or Ladder of Divine Ascent would look like in manga style” and doing it just see where that concept would go artistically, as long as they don’t venerate it. Perhaps it would be safer to copy icons that aren’t really for veneration: like the icon I have of the Last Judgment. The seller said that because it shows demons dragging people to hell in one corner that it is to be used for instruction or remembrance only, not to be venerated.
It's hard to accept, but I think it's fine to make it in manga style, but don't call it an icon or Christian icon, just like we won't call DaVinci's Last Supper an icon. Just call it an illustration or a painting & don't place it in a Church, so others won't venerate it & take it as a canonical icon.
Also it's fine as long as it repects the persons depicted in icons, like not changing their clothings (would be absurd to see St. John the Baptist in a superhero costume), changing their poses (would be utterly disrespectful to change ICXC hand signs to 👍 or ✌️), or changing the basic colours (would also be disrespectful to change Jesus' clothes colour to rainbow colour because we all know the colour of Jesus clothes in icons have a spiritual & dogmatic meaning). Take it as nothing more than just a piece of art.
Could someone explain the short comment regarding forbiding the depiction of Christ as the Lamb of God to me? I don't seem to understand it.
I'm a Roman Catholic.
No, Byzantine art also depicted christ as the lamb of God, it's not forbidden
The idea of "just be respectful and don't use it in worship" is a non-starter to me. People call them "anime ICONS". Not anime-style depictions of Mary, or manga-style depictions of Christ, but they are actively called icons. Since God is worthy of worship, any depiction of Christ in something resembling an icon is going to be regarded as a type of icon. I agree with Bojan, we have to be clay here.
I drew icons In manga version.
What about the other way around? Manga imagery in the style of an icon.
Is this the joke about Jesuits smoking while praying?
Wouldn't that just be Byzantine art?
"You can make Hey There Delilah a religious song if you like"
**Tim Hawkins has entered the chat**
How is using icons to worship the same as using your bible to worship? I don't bow to my bible and kiss it.. so I don't get how it's the same thing. Can anyone explain:))
They aren't pinnacles... Could one do a Kubuki Passion of the Christ, then?
...I felt dirty writing that. Probably answers my question. To be honest, traditional Japanese Art would be pretty cool for Christian artwork.
I might be what you call "evangelical." On the topic of Icons I think the disconnect is between educated and well traveled people knowing what they are for, and folks that just don't prefer that kind of thing not knowing what there for but being very "passionate." I like Orthodoxy and have even attended services and recognize this distinction.
Ps. If your a "passionate" orthodox please don't attack me for being evangelical.
not the video i expected to see
Hi seronymous
No.
"Manga and Anime are not height of culture."
~Everyone hated that~
Everyone?
Anime sucks
helo bojack
Ayo 💀 💀 💀 💀
NO
✌️ promosm
Evangelicals take secular music, change the lyrics and use it.
What if there’s a Japanese Orthodox Church, manga is the spiritual pinnacle of Japanese culture
And hey there Delilah is the pinnacle of secular American culture!!!
I’m unsubscribing smh astaghfirullah
100% joking
Hi Bojan,
I’m a Roman Catholic and was wondering why most Orthodox churches permit the use of artificial contraception. Thank you in advance.
The Orthodox Church does not permit the use of artificial contraception, unless in extraordinary cases where it is used as a medicinal or when pregnancy can cause death.
ua-cam.com/video/o3DNsSv1w7Y/v-deo.html
Orthodoxy isn't as legalistic as catholicism. The use of contraceptives is between the couple and the priest. Obviously, contraceptives aren't used because not wanting children / seeking pleasure. As not even natural family planning is allowed in Orthodoxy. But only used in extreme cases, for health issues, physical or maybe mental.
But they're so Kawaii ... 😅
I don’t think they should be allowed every
hell no
According to... common sense :D Genius!