I can’t help but think of that episode of House with Ricky Ullman and Jurnee Smollett portraying a married couple that end up finding out that they share the same father. They lived next door growing up I think and also the dad was always against them dating which the couple assumed was because of racism but in reality it’s because they were siblings.
@@ebayrose Especially since the clips of that episode have been uploaded multiple times so I’ve seen it a lot and never forgot about it because I was a fan of both Ricky and Jurnee growing up when they were on some of my favorite childhood shows.
Law and Order SVU had an episode like that, too. The girl was murdered, and it was discovered during the investigation that she and her boyfriend had the same father... he was pretending to be a separate person for the girl's family in order to father her and her little brother. She was pregnant, too... so her boyfriend/half brother literally got sick when he found out that she was his sister. Because... it's gross!!
@@dmf1301 It's gross if they grew up as siblings, it's concerning in regards to reproduction because it's slightly worse than reproducing with your first cousin, which is what makes it immoral if you're aware that your related closely.
Ricky was his stage name. I believe he had gone back to Raviv by then (House, MD). I too also had to garner a stage name for Disney. It was a different time back then.
He is supposed to be a neutral party as a therapist. Completely unbiased. He cannot tell them what to do, but he can ethically make them aware of the legal consequences of their future marriage as well as the biological consequences if they were to have children. From there, it’s completely up to the patients on where they want to go from there.
Sibling marriage is literally against the law in some states. So that would fall under the whole ethical obligation to stop the crime or report it or whatever. And also it’s potentially sexual assault or coercion on the part of the boy who is sitting here refusing to accept that they can’t marry. You can’t turn your feelings off in an instant, but you can make a decision to NOT get married because it’s insane! 😞
Yet it definitely does not seem unbiased. His bias is apparent in to be choosing Chris’s feelings over Jenny’s uncomfortability of marrying her brother.
@@LyingTube True - but I don't know which state this (yes, fictional, I know) couple live in. Also marrying your sibling is insane and gross in ANY country or state! :(
I was wrestling with this too, but I think he went the way they seemed to want to go - they sought out therapy together, so the intent was to repair the relationship on both their parts. She was just having way more trouble than he was. She was expressing that she couldn't do this, but she arrived to the therapy session with the intent of at least trying to get past that. If she didn't want to at least try, she wouldn't have come. So Frome tried to work with that. He left open language in each attempt to allow for the option that she in the end couldn't get past it.
Their entire relationship, he didn't know this information either, which means that the Chris she knew then could only be the "real" Chris. That hasn't changed. She was not romanced by her half-brother, whom she's only known existed for weeks, she was romanced by the man she'd loved since they were kids.
It’s sad that so many women don’t want to be able to make a relationship work. And they think it’s acceptable for their child to have 40, 60, 80, or even 100 plus half siblings and for their grandchildren to easily have 1,000 close relatives.
@@86Framer Many women who use sperm donors are in fact in a relationship that they're making work just fine, other than the baby-making part which isn't working (and clearly isn't their fault). Also, amazing that you blame the women in scenarios where a single man is donating up to 100 times.
@@Rosawyn And you have no blame to the clinics overusing reliable donors and the recipient parents oftentimes ghosting the clinic (not informing them of a successful pregnancy) at least 50% of the time?
@@86Framer You said nothing whatsoever about the clinics in your original comment either, but obviously there's plenty of blame for any clinic that's knowingly overusing the same donor.
@@Rosawyn The dramatic increase in demand for donor sperm isn’t from women with infertile partners. If these women actually saw a donor having 80 plus biological children as a problem, the issue with over using a sperm donor wouldn’t be a long running issue.
If I met somebody in college (same age), who was from the same small town, and also conceived by anonymous sperm donor... pretty sure I would have checked for this long before being 9 years into the relationship and about to be married. "I was conceived by anonymous sperm donor", "oh me too" seems like a conversation you have within the first couple months of dating because it comes up when you ask about their parents.
Where they come from has nothing to do with who is the sperm donor. It's not like there is a local branch of the sperm bank in their town with limited number of sperm donations
fun fact for you... because this became such a large issue in... i think it was the 80's they now have rules about how often a single sperm donor can be used (i think max 3) and to an extend how "local" both recipients can be.
Yeah, my best friend was born and raised on the Cayman Islands and her family has lived there for generations. She’s afraid to date anyone from the island because she’s paranoid of marrying someone she’s related to.
I’m with her. Love isn’t enough and it definitely isn’t enough in this case. Actually, if I was her, I would be creeped out that my brother still wants to get married
It really depends if a person is religious or not (assuming they don't have children which obviously is not ok for health reasons). From a religious perspective it's wrong period. And if a person isn't religious then why should they think it's wrong?
I wouldn't it just shows how much he loves her despite these very tragic circumstances. Get your tubes tied and a vasectomy and everything is fine. They didn't grow up as siblings. Context is relevant and theirs is very much not creepy.
@@weaveR2These two don’t have a sperm donor, they have a biological father. Because he donated sperm to the mom’s not these two. It’s like saying you work for say Amazon, because your mom works there.
Wonder how many times this situation happened before we had DNA testing? This doesn't feel wrong to me in the same way as half siblings who grew up together would.
Because the crime/sin/bad-idea of incest isn’t “gross! babies with hereditary diseases” (tought that shouldn’t be ignored). It’s psychological. It’s the abuse and unhealthy emotional complications of making a romantic relationship or marriage with a person who you have so much history or power dynamic with. Its the interaction between family relationship and the new relationship. And that’s just forced, unhealthy, abusive 99% of the time. And when it’s not, it’s probably open to abuse more so than other relationships. This taboo did not come out of concern for hereditary diseases. It comes from how we do families and social interactions and authority in our many societies across time.
@@yucol5661 ? all you listed dont apply to them other then the baby stuff they never knew they where brother and sister until now there is not history or power dynamic here
@@The_viking_Ninja Think they were just explaining why this, the clip doesn't feel wrong by explaining why siblings who did grow up together feels wrong. So, it shouldn't apply to the clip.
This is my biggest fear when it comes to dating. my biological mother had a lot of children, and never told me who my biological father was. we used to always joke about this with my adopted parents but in all honesty, it is a huge fear.
ok so here's the thing with this: they didn't know they were siblings until the test; they fell in love with each other because of who the other person is, not because of being siblings or having some incest weird thing. Honestly, as long as they never had kids, due to the biological implications and issues that could occur, i don't morally or ethically see a problem with them staying together. Had one of them been aware of the situation before, or there were kids involved, it would be completely different and wrong due to the scientific aspects of the issue along with morally wrong of the partner who was aware to keep the information hidden. now if one of them is uncomfortable staying together going forward, then the other should not push them to stay together, and should support the other with their decisions, as that is what love is about: accepting your partner and respecting their beliefs and feelings towards subjects when it does not cause harm to others or themselves.
Ethically (legally) their marriage wouldn’t be legal in many countries including the USA. Imagine their marriage getting nullified impacting healthcare or survivor benefits and so on. This has a long list of risks from big to small. What level of birth control puts them at an acceptable risk level for not getting pregnant? Does one need a tubal or a vasectomy or do they both need to get “snipped”? I don’t know why a couple’s kink that they practice in private, has an impact on wether it’s fine to commit incest. I’m sure step sibling get married here and there and if they use that as a kink they practice together. It doesn’t have any impact on the validity of their relationship.
Agreed, they are only half siblings by a sperm doner, not even anyone they knew. As long as they don't have kids they should just not tell anyone and go on living thier lives.
@@emilybeaty27So…it wouldn’t be okay, if their mother’s had picked a known sperm donor and say had annual get togethers with everyone and exchanged Xmas cards? I’m curious what level of involvement a biological father needs to have with his biological children, for it not to be okay for them to have sex with each other?
The DNA kit was an early wedding gift from an uncle. It's likely that the uncle suspected something, so gave the kit. If he was wrong, no harm, no foul. If he was right to suspect, which he clearly was, he isn't the one who blew up the relationship or the wedding. There is no way they're going to be able to keep this a secret. Their families are going to find out.
i think it's an awesome idea for a wedding present. naturally when two people decide to get married, they're excited about spending the rest of their lives together and obviously think a lot about what their future will look like, and the majority of couples would probably agree that starting a family together is the biggest part of that. a DNA test would show what their future children's heritage would be. that'd be interesting for couples who aren't in their situation, but probably even more-so for them. they didn't say if this uncle knows about either of them coming from a sperm-donor, but he probably did know about at least one of them, if nor both. sometimes they receive a file that has a little bit of info about the supermarket donor, like their heritage, hair color, eye color, ect, but not all the time. with some people, they only know half of where they came from. so yes, this would make an awesome wedding gift, especially for sperm-donor kids. i've done one before, but i'm not sure if it gives the option of genetic testing to check if you carry certain genetic conditions, but that could possibly be another reason it'd be a thoughtful gift. i've definitely heard of lots of couples who get this as a wedding gift.
3:17 I'm with her on this. There is no marrying each ther after finding out you're siblings. Also is Iggy seriously encouraging that they continue with the wedding?
Why tho? If they take all the measures to prevent children (vasectomy and tubes tying) they are safe. Seeing as they didn't know they were siblings mad didn't even grew up together I don't see the issue. They share a sperm donor. Their mom's didn't even sleep with the same guy but had a doctor do it. Throwing away 10 on a principle like this when the circumstances are very clearly not problematic seems strange.
@@annyjones7228 you acknowledge that love isn’t always logical, then you have to acknowledge the same for hate. Just as the couple couldn’t just stop loving each other because their relationship up to the DNA test was developed normally, other people can’t just stop feeling disgust that is largely justified in most of the instances that incest occurs.
@@annyjones7228The children have the same biological father, their mom’s have the same sperm donor. Donor conceived people didn’t decide to use a sperm donor, their parents did. What does it matter that their mom’s didn’t have sex to conceive them? Like it’d somehow be different, if they both got knocked up by screwing the mailman and didn’t tell anyone?
THIS IS WHY THE PARENTS SHOULD ALWAYS BE TOLD WHO THE DONOR IS IF THERE PLANNING ON TELLING THERE KIDS A POPULATION OF 8000 THE SAME MEN DONATE IT HAPPENS I GET THE MEN WANT TO STAY ANOMOUS BUT THE KIDS NEED TO NO THERE DNA SO THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN...... IF THEY LOVE EACHOTHER GET MARRIED
Actually, I’m going to agree with you. I think you should still go ahead and get married their half brother and half sister but medically speaking I’m a registered nurse for 35 years believe it or not I don’t think there will be any genetic challenges on that front. Close relatives, especially in the past got married all the time.
Totally disagree...that's the point of using an anonymous donor. He didn't want anyone to know and the parents didn't either. This would limit the amount of donations, if the donor is not anonymous.
@@Americanpatriot-zo2tkYou do know that groups with high rates of first cousin marriages have dramatically more birth defects and disabilities than groups that don’t, right? How about the Pakistani British population for instance?
@@kim___P4PEven the Fertility Industry admitted years ago that permanent donor anonymity is dead and buried because 40 million and counting people have already taken ancestry tests. We’ve even had donor conceived people die because they didn’t have accurate and up to date family health histories. Also, many of those then mostly broke college kids who donated sperm or eggs would love to meet their biological children!
@@kim___P4PPlenty of men are up for donating sperm as a known from the beginning of a known at 18 donor. The reason for the sperm shortage right now is that millennials as a whole are terrible at making long term relationships work, so instead of putting on their big girl panties and working on themselves and finding a man to at least coparent with. They decide to just become SMBC’s (single moms by choice). Also ancestry testing has forced clinics to stop using one sperm donor to conceive 60, 80, or even 100 plus children. Who wants that many half siblings? Who wants to die young because their parents weren’t honest with them? Who wants to hookup with a sibling?
Not to side with incest here but I understand. They’re not family in the traditional sense they didn’t grow up together, they didn’t have those sibling moments they didn’t meet until they were basically adults. But at the same time it would be weird knowing technically you’re siblings.
Agreed. The heart was willing because the mind didn’t know. But the reality is, they shouldn’t have children, due to high probability of birth defects.
How in the world can either of them think this is okay and try to continue this marriage. This is just sick and so are they. They aren’t every other couple, they are brother and sister. How can he help them be okay with this? What happens when she gets pregnant and she will? What happens when others find out? What happens when the kid(s) find out because they will?
Well it’s devoid of all the reasons incest is a problem. The show eliminates the idea of children, they didn’t grow up together and it doesn’t have the power imbalance of the situation. They are two people who came to this moment independent of anything having to do with their bloodline. So essentially all things bad about it are conveniently gone. That being said this is extremely idealized. Sure in the perfect situation the show creates it can work out but that’s not reality. Like you said, if this couple were real she would get pregnant. Unless one or both of them has a procedure. And the dominos that would have to fall for this to go down this way is silly. Sure it’s not unethical…. But it’s also pure fantasy.
I feel that there is no real right or wrong answer in this situation. They don’t have that sibling or familial bond. Both are correct in wanting to continue the relationship and not know how if they can. Legally speaking they wouldn’t get in trouble since they were test tube babies and there aren’t any legal documents connecting them outside the sperm bank’s coded identifier of the chosen donor’s sperm.
Actually quite a few donor conceived people and lost lost siblings have said they experienced a deep connection and familiarity, when meeting for the first time. Which is probably what happened to this couple. Also, the sperm and egg need to meet inside of a lab to be a “test tube baby”. Just putting donor sperm inside of a woman doesn’t make the resulting child a “test tube baby”.
@@86Framer okay talking about someone who was adopted and grew up in different households I don't see my half siblings as siblings ( will I date them? no, I don't want to be anywhere associated with them) but if this happened to me it'll be a lot to process but I wouldn't consider them siblings just an other person like I do now. tech we are all related to each other being distant cousins.
@@jellydelly4524 Also, would you want to know your family health history, so you don’t have a preventable early death, which is the big thing changing laws about donor and adoption anonymity these days?
@@86Framer hell no. As far as i can tell im healthy and always been healthy. I rather stay as far away to those people as I possibly can and don't want to know anymore about them then I do now
Now that they've taken the DNA test, I think that counts as a document that could be admissible in court linking them as siblings (though I'm not a lawyer). Question is, if they keep it secret why would anyone ever have cause to come after them for it in the first place?
This reminded me of a story I heard. A couple was planning on getting married and both their parents met for the first time. If I remember correctly, the mom of the bride and the father of the groom start an affair with each other, both divorce their partners and got married to each other. But here's the real kicker, after they did all that they then told their kids that they can't get married anymore because now they are step siblings.
@Peter_pansexual6243 that story tells me that either the parents planned It to prevent them from getting married in the first place or they chose their own happiness over their kids. Either way it wouldn't matter because there is nothing wrong step-siblings being together because they're not actually related.
@@melaniealdrich5304 uh, no. in this case it would be fine because they werent raised together and are only legally stepsiblings as of very recently. had this happened when they were kids, and they were raiswed together as stepsiblings, then it would be wrong
Some states still do But they don't test DNA. When you do a DNA test it is usually a saliva swab. Blood tests were/are done for STDs but also rubella. Many things were tested for but it wasn't for a familial match.
Why would a doctor, or anyone, encourage a brother and sister to marry each other? I love my husband far more than I ever thought possible but if I found out we were siblings that would be the end of the marriage. You don't marry siblings, plain and simple.
I guess for me I would explore the ethics of the situation. As far as I understand it the main potential damage that an incestuous relationship can cause is potential/prevalence for sexual abuse historically in incestual relationships, and genetic disorders in offspring. Anything beyond that is simply a violation of cultural/social norms, which don’t necessarily govern what is right and wrong. In this case, the two met as similarly aged adults and were otherwise in a pretty normal relationship, so abuse is out. So if they agree not to have children, there’s technically not a lot they’re ultimately guilty of besides being “gross” by our social standards. If they’re not harming anybody, and they still genuinely love each other, as weird as we might find it, their relationship could still be worth salvaging.
They were not true brother and sister because the doctor shown his own DNA chart as well and it's a 85% match between both of them together and doctor really couldn't be related to both of them. If you watched the video again so actual science has not approving right at all.
It like saying that in Africa country I have a black family members I'm related to with different languages I don't understand and I'm only a ordinary white country guy living in America and never had been outside of my America States that I was actually born Citizens of America and my ancestors are my English Founding Fathers Presidents and and related to Daniel Boone daughter Sara 1700 and overseas countries England and Scotland jumping countries to countries different families members 300 years before America became America 1600 .
I don’t understand how, ethically, Iggy can try to counsel a couple that found this out. If they’re related then he can’t vie to have them continue being a couple.
I don't think it's as much Frome trying to push them back into each other's arms but rather they would not have been there seeking couples councelling if there wasnt a huge part of both of them that wants it to work and Frome sees that
This is a really complicated situation. The stigma against incest exists predominantly from religion and from the potential for birth defects in offspring, the latter of which being why Frome brings up children being out of the picture. But beyond that there's really nothing in his professional sphere as a psychologist to push him to break them up Or to bring them together based purely on their relation. They met, got together, fell in love, and planned to get married all without the slightest bit of indication that they were family in some abstract microscopic way. So as far as the psychologist is concerned, the only question is what would be better for them both emotionally: to break apart because of what a single DNA test said or to try and find a way to resolve their feelings for one another in light of it.
@@eprimeify2090 Eh, even the father of modern evolutionary theory recognised the risks of close familial coupling and still married his first cousin. To say nothing of how human emotions aren't always beholden to logical argument.
@@eprimeify2090 Assuming that they didn't grow up together, there was no weird power dynamic component, they didn't know about being related, and they take proper steps to ensure they never conceive a child together, is there really even an ethical argument to say that they shouldn't continue being a couple or marry? If they both are ok with it, I don't see anything in this specific scenario that would make it inherently wrong.
Chris is really cute and kind. I’d have no problem. They weren’t raised in a familial relationship. Those eyes his smile and that nose would be everything fir me.
Unfortunately, ignorance of the law is no excuse in the eyes of the justice system. Imagine their kids or other decendants down the line take a DNA test and find out there was brother/sister incest in the family tree. It would be shocking, horrifying, and worse to whomever found out more than likely. Though Iggy did say they should never, ever, have biological kids people are just not smart when it comes to that. Would've been more compelling if they already had a child.
Like that episode of Life Pieces where they do a family tree, and are grossed out to discover that their great-great grandparents were in fact uncle and niece.
Easy fix: you adopt and tell everyone you couldn't have kids or want to adopt because there are already so many on the planet. No questions asked. It's more of an ethical issues than a biological one.
@@annyjones7228Why is adoption constantly touted, as being the gold standard of ethical behavior for someone who wants to become a parent? It’s very common for adoption agencies to bully women to follow through with putting their babies for adoption, by harshly reminding them. That they’ll pay every penny back for all of the doses from prenatal vitamins to ultrasounds.
@@annyjones7228That’s just the tip of the iceberg. What is honestly the difference between these two getting married and first cousins and siblings who grew up under the same roof together then?
A sibling is someone you grow up with. As long as they don't have kids, it's not really an issue. it's interesting how often these shows make this story. I wonder how many times it has actually happened
Umm...are we really justifying incest here? It's wrong in every way. Period. Can't blame the couple for being together without knowing, but once they do then they should stop! I'm distributing by the amount of people in the comments saying what's so wrong about continuing their relationship as long as they don't have kid?!
They did not know they were siblinsg and they alreday did everything what couple do. Imagine if you fall in love with someone, built life and then you found out you are related.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 in your incestuous worldview, what are the ethics of a couple that both have amnesia - and “do not know” theyre siblings
@@sherrinfjord4356 I do not see anything wrong with this. Two consenting adults have right to do whatever they want with their body as long as they do not harm other person.
I think this probably far more common than anyone realizes I just found out this year that my grandparents are like 13th long distant cousins and ya it is a bit weird but they also didn't find this out till years after they got married and had kids just cuz technology wasn't the same as it is now. This case isn't black and white and he does say they shouldn't have biological kids with each other but I mean they could adopt or foster or they could have an egg donor/ surrogate I doubt they'd go the route of a sperm donor just cuz that's what caused all these problems to begin with. Just cuz you share DNA doesn't mean your family just means you share blood. Some family is chosen.
I don’t know how you can compare a marriage between say third cousins or father removed to marrying a half sibling. You agree that they shouldn’t reproduce with each other, without using donor sperm, eggs, or embryos. You should also know that their marriage won’t be legal and will be voided when it’s eventually revealed, which can impact healthcare, pensions, property, rights, and more. I don’t understand how and why the concept of “chosen family” is being used to rationalize incest. How we go from “I’m not a fan of my super conservative uncle and like my buddy Timmy more than him” to it’s fine to have sex with a sibling?
Kids are still viable between siblings. Its the several generations of inbreeding that leads to complications. A child may recieve some bad gene pairs. But as this is the first generation, there aren't enough bad genes to cascade into health problems. Would likely show a higher than normal degree of the physical features of familiy
It definitely helps having unrelated mothers, but we don’t know what they got from their biological father. How about going through life with your parents being siblings? Everyone from your doctor to potential long term partners would have to be told.
Imo obviously the relationship is biologically wrong but if they dont have kids that's a non issue. So that leaves the moral issues which for me, its about growing up with thwm as a sibling, in the house episode with this same situation Foreman said it best. They didnt grow up taking baths together or changing each others diapers. They grew up and they met just like any two unrelated people. And they didnt know until after they developed that relationship. Imo if you didnt know it was incest before you started the relationship its not morally wrong, its only wrong if you hsve kids bc thats not fair to the kids.
This therapist gotten his d doctorate from at the side of a cereal box. He's pretty manipulative and is on the side of the man from the get go instead of being a mediator and unbiased person. He totally ignored the women's feelings and her inner turmoil...
nope...nopety nope nope...you get as much money back as you can when you cancel and you both get into therapy for finding out you are related and you also do a second DNA test through a much more reputable source to double check that. If it's found that you aren't actually related, elope and question the uncle after.
The important thing is they can’t and/or shouldn’t have biological children, and there are ways to prevent from ever happening. The idea of a brother and sister being yknow, together would seem disgusting to you. But I would never say or think that. I just think it will make everyone else around them very uncomfortable and disgusted and I want to be the man who doesn’t care what everyone else thinks or says
Isn’t it possible the reason they are so compatible and connected is bc biologically brother and sister. Remember Luke and Leah in Star Wars? Just saying …. there are different forms of love. Maybe the love they should have explored was siblings not matrimony which involves sexual love with a sibling.
Therapist are supposed to help and advise, the best advice is to end their relationship and not try to help fix incest, because they might end up having children, possibly unintentionally, who are sick and deformed
Isn't it illegal for siblings to get married to each other. Isn't incest illegal? Why has he as a therapist not made them aware of this? According to a law firm "New York Incest in the First Degree is a Class “B” Violent Felony. As such, this charge is punishable by 5 to 25 years jail. Additionally, if you are charged with New York Incest in the First Degree, it is also likely that you will be charged with Rape in the First Degree or Criminal Sexual Act in the First Degree." This law includes half siblings. He as a therapist has a responsibility to be unbiased, but he also has a responsibility to inform that them continuing their relationship has legal consequences. Also, since they decide to continue their relationship and get married, and if he knows that his patients are going to commit a crime, doesn't he have the responsibility to report this to the authorities without it being a violation of any doctor patient confidentiality laws?
ER did it too. Although I think in that one, the kids weren't actually related, the mom was on some kind of "Maury" type show and they paid her to tell the kids they were related. The daughter unalived herself before the mom could tell the truth. I think I'm remembering that correctly
Never watched this sitcom before and never will after seeing this clip. The therapist trying to convince a brother and sister to get married and that disgusting kiss at the end. Half or full siblings its Sickening and disturbing
@Americanpatriot-zo2tk That was back in the Bible. Where they didn't know about this type of thing not really Stop comparing yourself to the old testament you're not them
@@hmmm2564 yes it’s in there. He told the Egyptians it was his sister so they wouldn’t kill him. Then Yahweh sent Pharaoh a dream that it was Abrahams wife and pharaoh told/made Abraham leave!
Here’s a clip from whenever they did it on House with Jurnee Smollett and Ricky Ullman portraying a couple that find out they share the same father. Link: ua-cam.com/video/MeCyZDdsePQ/v-deo.html
@@delmicortave In the House episode they grew up next door to each other, and they both knew the father they shared throughout their entire childhood, through they did not know he was the father of both of them. The father knew the whole time. That is a radically different situation, and a whole other dynamic.
Something like 90% of donor conceived people born pre 2000 weren’t ever told they’re donor conceived. They tend to find out when taking an ancestry test on a whim.
This is a facinating issue. One one hand we have incest begotten due to ignorance, and on the oher is a lesser life potentially alone or with someone lesser (it seems that the love these two have for each other is rare). There is no good answer, though I think the rigth answer is the latter. Unfortunately, this kind of thing is a real issue these days, especailly due to unscrupulous donor clinics that abuse a single donor or a small pool of donors (laws usually restirct donations to like 10 kids or something - its different everywhere - but some places will use the same donor for a 100 kids). Strangely enough, cases of siblings dating are FAR more common than one would expect, even in larger cities. The hypothesis going around is that people are generally attracted to those who are genetically similar to themselves (which usually presents as similar characteristics) in order for our genes to have the highest chances of being passed on. I find the evidence somewhat compelling, but not quite enough to convince me that it should be a theory: see the countless people who are into people of other ethnicites (who would be much more different - though not significantly - genetically). Much of the issue with incest (though not all of it) is due to teh issue of chidlren. Those kids have a significannly high chance of being born with defects due to any harmful reccessive alleles the closely related parents carry. Would their relationship be ok if they never have biolgical children? What if both or one of them were to get vascectomy or hysterectomy to prevent kids? I feel bad for these two people who clearly belong together, but probably shouldn't. I would like to mention that incest to the degree thatt hese two are doing is illegal in the US - the doctor sould NOT be trying to get them to normalize thier crime...
I don't think it's ethical to say that the "right" answer is the one with the greatest emotional misery, certainly not for a psychologist for whom the emotional wellbeing of his patients is the priority. I think the ethical solution is what Frome comes to in this scene: A continuing relationship with the awareness of the problems and risks involved, such as with having children as he explicitly addresses. He's not saying "everyone should marry their siblings", he's saying "okay you two CLEARLY loved each-other long before you knew about this so here's the risks you should know moving forward"
We are all connected to each other.. all of us are on a giant Island we can't leave.. we all bleed the same color.. we are in a circle in a hoop That Never Ends..
Well in my country it’s simply forbidden to marry your brother, also your half-brother. So they just don’t tell anyone and if people ask, why they don’t will have children, they will lie?
There is no rational reason to be against this relationship if they never have children. The risk of inbreeding is the reason our brains don't like it, but if we remove that risk the fear and disgust becomes purely irrational in this case. If they grew up together, the story would be different for a variety of reasons.
Honestly as long as their children or their parents weren't closely related then their children should be fine. Full siblings have had children before that are ok. It's definitetly rare but while the chance of gene mutations is higher its not really that horrible.
Donor conceived people are always informed of that choice. Unlike people fro the big “first cousin first choice” communities ago have a super high chance of stuff like birth defects
Port Jefferson is tiny. 🤔Unless one of them was from Port Jeff Station and the other from the Village. If they both were from the Village they would have known each other all their lives if they were that close enough in age to be going to the same university classes. Unless one of them was homeschooled but even then there's like a 1/1000 chance chance they wouldn't meet till they were at NYU. Very unrealistic, at least to someone who grew up two towns over.😆
it's one thing to decide to have sex with a family member, brother, cousin... and it's another to meet a stranger and discover 10 years later, he is your 'brother'... I have 2 sisters, that's my family, my world, if I were being told, my BF is in fact my brother, I don't think I could see him as such... not even sure I could believe it on an emotional level. They could have lived their all life without anyone knowing nor anyone finding it 'sick'...
@@Americanpatriot-zo2tk NO there are some relationships that should not be sexualized... but i guess you are one of those idiots who thonks its ok for a child and parent to marry because they "LOVE EACH OTHER" seriously what is wrong with you?
How far gone are we as a society that a psychiatrist is trying to justify two siblings getting married??? Dr. Frome just keeps giving L take after L take. How tf do you encourage siblings being married with a clear conscience??
um, forgive me, but doesn't the effects from inbreeding start well after the 1st generation? They are only half siblings. If they are both free of genetic health problems, the risk of problems in their offspring is practically the same as everyone else. (genetics fascinate me). Look at any royal family tree. Most of them were full siblings from the start and just kept going until they were literally infertile or "incompatible with life". The scenario in this clip probably plays out in the world ALOT. DNA kits are new and the only way to know.
I say, if you have love like that, get married. Just don't have children. Love like that only comes only once or twice in a lifetime. There's no reason why it couldn't work.
Had to go here cause i just watched this episode cause it really bothered me. I like this Dr. But disagree with his decision here. He didn't listen to what the girl said, and sided with the guy. He low-key convinced them to stay together despite being biologically related. It's just a no for me. It's just gross to think i would marry my brother, i wouldn't even date any cousin.
I’m sorry but I can’t stand how the therapist and the fiancé are. Like the woman is correct in her feelings! Their mothers should’ve given them more info about the donors, but it’s also completely valid for her to want to end things. It doesn’t matter if they don’t have children, it is still wrong on so many levels. The guy needs to see that this is just nasty. You didn’t fall in love as siblings, sure, but you’ll always know. And I don’t know about anyone else, but the thought of being physically with anyone sharing a relation to me makes me wanna vomit.
i dont even think the mothers knew how the donors were... when it's anonymous you get a generic "john joe" name on your sprem... that opsy is fully on the clinic for allowing 2 women in such a small town use the same donor (there's a law about this and how many times a donor can be used within a certain radius of space/population)
agreed... if they KNEW they were siblings... like in this moment yes they do because they did that test... if they had done the test after they wouldnt have lied when getting married and since the donors were anonymous legally unless they divulge that they knew they were half siblings the law couldnt do anything about it. so im not disagreeing with the law you've stated but it does become a grey area when info isnt told
It’s common for donor conceived half siblings to have unknowingly gone to high school or college with each other. Born pre 2000 the vast majority weren’t told they were donor conceived and find out well into adulthood by taking an ancestry test on a whim.
The Fertility Industry and most recipient parents don’t really care about incest risks or donor conceived people having up to date family health histories. It’s ancestry testing that has forced many clinics from using one sperm donor to father 60, 80, or even 100 plus children.
@@86Framer wow thanks for that info, so interesting about the ancestry link. Even if people aren't religious and have no reason to care about incest per se, how could they not care about genetics? Siblings having children together is a disaster. And statistically people tend to be attracted to their siblings. The reason people aren't typically attracted to their siblings is because the "lack of attraction" that occurs from growing up together outweighs that. But if siblings are raised apart and then meet there is a good chance they will be attracted to each other.
@@justincase7848 I think some very popular gender studies people argue that incest isn’t a bad thing. Judith Butler is very popular and wrote some pro incest stuff. Another factor is people who have an obsession with the value chosen families, to the point where. If incest doesn’t matter, then their beliefs are more valid. These are a few guesses I can think of right now.
Or maybe they were attracted to each other because they are siblings. I get they did not choose the relationship but once they´re in the know it´s a NO. As if there aren´t countless men and women that aren´t related. Because, let´s change the fact that they´re half siblings. Imagine if this couple was made up of a son and a mother that gave her son for adoption and, unknowingly until a DNA test and found out. Would the doctor encourage the relationship the same way?
Isn't there a medical consultant who advises the show's writers? It is ok for persons who are both related to the same half-sibling but not to each other to marry and have children. However, a man and woman with one parent in common shoul not be married, frankly, even if it is legal, and should definitely not have biological children together.
@@annyjones7228Actually they legally can’t get married, if they’re honest about being brother and sister. It will be nullified, if discovered too. This has huge legal implications for a lot of things.
@@fordhouse8bIt’s still a sword of Damocles hanging over the many important things that a valid marriage certificate provides. They also did ancestry testing, so they’re in a database beyond their control already.
This is a beautiful couple. Just have a beautiful wedding and grow a family. Those DNA kits could be testing ancestral DNA, or Fake DNA kits. I found out that my girl could be blood related to my family over 100's years ago. But she hates me and I endure her. And this made a great family.
Stuff like this has always baffled me. Aren't we programmed to seek mates that's genetivally different than us? Studies have shown the smell of someone who is very different genetically is more attractive than one that's similar. How could 2 siblings become attracted to each other? Their similar genes should be repelling the 2 of them to opposite ends of the planet.
It's a hard case as they're biologically half-siblings but they did not grew up together, did not know of each other's existence till they were adults. It's still weird to know that y'all are biologically related Now alot of problems that are brought up in the comments are deformity of future children, in cases like these it won't cause any problems a problem only arise after a long line of inbreeding, maybe 3/4 generations in varies sometimes but if it's just 1 usually it's fine Would i personally do it, I don't know it's certainly weird but maybe love prevails who knows
What difference does being raised together have to do with incest? Could you imagine telling everyone you’ve had a serious relationship with that your parents are brother and sister?
What was the purpose when they were talking about DNA? They still have the same dad! Seemed like Frome gave more reason to be togthan him being neutral.
People apparently this happens more than you know apparently especially if siblings are not acknowledged by their family members who know they are siblings one to another so when couples get a sperm donor they should immediately know if there are others with the same person and if so who the others are there should be a way of finding out even if the guy wants to remain anonymous that's all well and good but those who are getting his sperm should be told their other couples here are the names and you know they should be made aware of each other so that way this doesn't happen but it happens a lot more than most people realize and the attraction is actually real apparently was siblings who don't know their siblings it happens a lot apparently it's been scientifically proven that the attraction is even stronger in such cases and when they find out that's when the proverbial s hits the fan... And it's sad really because it should be made no they should be told ahead of time and they should be DNA testing for any couples that are born from donation,😊
I don’t know if you know this but I have a friend who is a nurse and and she she is a a nurse nurse and she is a nurse practitioner she has been in in the the hospital hospital for a a while and she she is is a nurse and she she was was the the
I can’t help but think of that episode of House with Ricky Ullman and Jurnee Smollett portraying a married couple that end up finding out that they share the same father. They lived next door growing up I think and also the dad was always against them dating which the couple assumed was because of racism but in reality it’s because they were siblings.
Same, my first mental association watching this too.
@@ebayrose Especially since the clips of that episode have been uploaded multiple times so I’ve seen it a lot and never forgot about it because I was a fan of both Ricky and Jurnee growing up when they were on some of my favorite childhood shows.
Law and Order SVU had an episode like that, too. The girl was murdered, and it was discovered during the investigation that she and her boyfriend had the same father... he was pretending to be a separate person for the girl's family in order to father her and her little brother.
She was pregnant, too... so her boyfriend/half brother literally got sick when he found out that she was his sister. Because... it's gross!!
@@dmf1301 It's gross if they grew up as siblings, it's concerning in regards to reproduction because it's slightly worse than reproducing with your first cousin, which is what makes it immoral if you're aware that your related closely.
Ricky was his stage name. I believe he had gone back to Raviv by then (House, MD). I too also had to garner a stage name for Disney. It was a different time back then.
Him: we have problems in bed and we argue
Her: don't listen to him, doctor. He's an idiot. Problem is we're siblings.
He is supposed to be a neutral party as a therapist. Completely unbiased. He cannot tell them what to do, but he can ethically make them aware of the legal consequences of their future marriage as well as the biological consequences if they were to have children. From there, it’s completely up to the patients on where they want to go from there.
Sibling marriage is literally against the law in some states.
So that would fall under the whole ethical obligation to stop the crime or report it or whatever.
And also it’s potentially sexual assault or coercion on the part of the boy who is sitting here refusing to accept that they can’t marry.
You can’t turn your feelings off in an instant, but you can make a decision to NOT get married because it’s insane! 😞
@@dmf1301 Key phrase there: "In some states"
Yet it definitely does not seem unbiased. His bias is apparent in to be choosing Chris’s feelings over Jenny’s uncomfortability of marrying her brother.
@@LyingTube True - but I don't know which state this (yes, fictional, I know) couple live in.
Also marrying your sibling is insane and gross in ANY country or state! :(
I was wrestling with this too, but I think he went the way they seemed to want to go - they sought out therapy together, so the intent was to repair the relationship on both their parts. She was just having way more trouble than he was. She was expressing that she couldn't do this, but she arrived to the therapy session with the intent of at least trying to get past that. If she didn't want to at least try, she wouldn't have come. So Frome tried to work with that. He left open language in each attempt to allow for the option that she in the end couldn't get past it.
Their entire relationship, he didn't know this information either, which means that the Chris she knew then could only be the "real" Chris. That hasn't changed. She was not romanced by her half-brother, whom she's only known existed for weeks, she was romanced by the man she'd loved since they were kids.
I am going to go ahead and also point out that there's a town in Sweden that had to ban a man from donating because of this problem.
It’s sad that so many women don’t want to be able to make a relationship work. And they think it’s acceptable for their child to have 40, 60, 80, or even 100 plus half siblings and for their grandchildren to easily have 1,000 close relatives.
@@86Framer Many women who use sperm donors are in fact in a relationship that they're making work just fine, other than the baby-making part which isn't working (and clearly isn't their fault). Also, amazing that you blame the women in scenarios where a single man is donating up to 100 times.
@@Rosawyn And you have no blame to the clinics overusing reliable donors and the recipient parents oftentimes ghosting the clinic (not informing them of a successful pregnancy) at least 50% of the time?
@@86Framer You said nothing whatsoever about the clinics in your original comment either, but obviously there's plenty of blame for any clinic that's knowingly overusing the same donor.
@@Rosawyn The dramatic increase in demand for donor sperm isn’t from women with infertile partners.
If these women actually saw a donor having 80 plus biological children as a problem, the issue with over using a sperm donor wouldn’t be a long running issue.
If I met somebody in college (same age), who was from the same small town, and also conceived by anonymous sperm donor... pretty sure I would have checked for this long before being 9 years into the relationship and about to be married. "I was conceived by anonymous sperm donor", "oh me too" seems like a conversation you have within the first couple months of dating because it comes up when you ask about their parents.
Where they come from has nothing to do with who is the sperm donor. It's not like there is a local branch of the sperm bank in their town with limited number of sperm donations
fun fact for you...
because this became such a large issue in... i think it was the 80's they now have rules about how often a single sperm donor can be used (i think max 3) and to an extend how "local" both recipients can be.
@@mooocow99 except doctors and organizations have broken that law.
Yeah, my best friend was born and raised on the Cayman Islands and her family has lived there for generations. She’s afraid to date anyone from the island because she’s paranoid of marrying someone she’s related to.
Iceland has an app for checking how closely related you are to someone because everyone is basically at least fourth or fifth cousins or so
I’m guess that in a town of 8,000 people, the odds of 2 people having similar DNA, tell me that the doctor in charge of the IVF, is the sperm donor. 😂
It would've made more sense to say that their dad just got around.
Long Island is a big place. Port Jefferson is a real town out there surrounded by many other towns, it’s not isolated.
I’m with her. Love isn’t enough and it definitely isn’t enough in this case. Actually, if I was her, I would be creeped out that my brother still wants to get married
It really depends if a person is religious or not (assuming they don't have children which obviously is not ok for health reasons). From a religious perspective it's wrong period. And if a person isn't religious then why should they think it's wrong?
But he's not her brother. Half brother and only because of the same sperm donor. You're not very smart
I wouldn't it just shows how much he loves her despite these very tragic circumstances.
Get your tubes tied and a vasectomy and everything is fine. They didn't grow up as siblings. Context is relevant and theirs is very much not creepy.
@@justincase7848 you are a perv
@@weaveR2These two don’t have a sperm donor, they have a biological father. Because he donated sperm to the mom’s not these two.
It’s like saying you work for say Amazon, because your mom works there.
Wonder how many times this situation happened before we had DNA testing? This doesn't feel wrong to me in the same way as half siblings who grew up together would.
Because the crime/sin/bad-idea of incest isn’t “gross! babies with hereditary diseases” (tought that shouldn’t be ignored). It’s psychological. It’s the abuse and unhealthy emotional complications of making a romantic relationship or marriage with a person who you have so much history or power dynamic with. Its the interaction between family relationship and the new relationship. And that’s just forced, unhealthy, abusive 99% of the time. And when it’s not, it’s probably open to abuse more so than other relationships.
This taboo did not come out of concern for hereditary diseases. It comes from how we do families and social interactions and authority in our many societies across time.
@@yucol5661 ? all you listed dont apply to them other then the baby stuff they never knew they where brother and sister until now there is not history or power dynamic here
@@The_viking_Ninja Think they were just explaining why this, the clip doesn't feel wrong by explaining why siblings who did grow up together feels wrong. So, it shouldn't apply to the clip.
This is my biggest fear when it comes to dating. my biological mother had a lot of children, and never told me who my biological father was. we used to always joke about this with my adopted parents but in all honesty, it is a huge fear.
Sounds like you had a very dysfunctional upbringing with your family, even with your adopted parents@@TheKitaleigh
ok so here's the thing with this:
they didn't know they were siblings until the test; they fell in love with each other because of who the other person is, not because of being siblings or having some incest weird thing. Honestly, as long as they never had kids, due to the biological implications and issues that could occur, i don't morally or ethically see a problem with them staying together. Had one of them been aware of the situation before, or there were kids involved, it would be completely different and wrong due to the scientific aspects of the issue along with morally wrong of the partner who was aware to keep the information hidden.
now if one of them is uncomfortable staying together going forward, then the other should not push them to stay together, and should support the other with their decisions, as that is what love is about: accepting your partner and respecting their beliefs and feelings towards subjects when it does not cause harm to others or themselves.
Ethically (legally) their marriage wouldn’t be legal in many countries including the USA. Imagine their marriage getting nullified impacting healthcare or survivor benefits and so on. This has a long list of risks from big to small.
What level of birth control puts them at an acceptable risk level for not getting pregnant? Does one need a tubal or a vasectomy or do they both need to get “snipped”?
I don’t know why a couple’s kink that they practice in private, has an impact on wether it’s fine to commit incest. I’m sure step sibling get married here and there and if they use that as a kink they practice together. It doesn’t have any impact on the validity of their relationship.
Agreed, they are only half siblings by a sperm doner, not even anyone they knew. As long as they don't have kids they should just not tell anyone and go on living thier lives.
@@emilybeaty27So…it wouldn’t be okay, if their mother’s had picked a known sperm donor and say had annual get togethers with everyone and exchanged Xmas cards?
I’m curious what level of involvement a biological father needs to have with his biological children, for it not to be okay for them to have sex with each other?
Exactly. Yuck ?, totally. But if they aren't having kids, and they BOTH want it then it's not else's business.
@@86Framer They are not siblings in legal way, hence they can marry.
Who gets a DNA test kit for a wedding gift?? And why open it before the big day?
The DNA kit was an early wedding gift from an uncle. It's likely that the uncle suspected something, so gave the kit. If he was wrong, no harm, no foul. If he was right to suspect, which he clearly was, he isn't the one who blew up the relationship or the wedding. There is no way they're going to be able to keep this a secret. Their families are going to find out.
Someone else in their family is going to get a DNA kit and that might mean connecting the dots...
i think it's an awesome idea for a wedding present. naturally when two people decide to get married, they're excited about spending the rest of their lives together and obviously think a lot about what their future will look like, and the majority of couples would probably agree that starting a family together is the biggest part of that. a DNA test would show what their future children's heritage would be. that'd be interesting for couples who aren't in their situation, but probably even more-so for them. they didn't say if this uncle knows about either of them coming from a sperm-donor, but he probably did know about at least one of them, if nor both. sometimes they receive a file that has a little bit of info about the supermarket donor, like their heritage, hair color, eye color, ect, but not all the time. with some people, they only know half of where they came from. so yes, this would make an awesome wedding gift, especially for sperm-donor kids. i've done one before, but i'm not sure if it gives the option of genetic testing to check if you carry certain genetic conditions, but that could possibly be another reason it'd be a thoughtful gift. i've definitely heard of lots of couples who get this as a wedding gift.
And why are they still together if they know they are siblings?
I think someone in the family knew and didn't have the heart to tell them to their faces so they told them with the kit.
3:17 I'm with her on this. There is no marrying each ther after finding out you're siblings. Also is Iggy seriously encouraging that they continue with the wedding?
Yeah, it's pretty gross.
Why tho? If they take all the measures to prevent children (vasectomy and tubes tying) they are safe.
Seeing as they didn't know they were siblings mad didn't even grew up together I don't see the issue.
They share a sperm donor. Their mom's didn't even sleep with the same guy but had a doctor do it.
Throwing away 10 on a principle like this when the circumstances are very clearly not problematic seems strange.
@@annyjones7228 you acknowledge that love isn’t always logical, then you have to acknowledge the same for hate. Just as the couple couldn’t just stop loving each other because their relationship up to the DNA test was developed normally, other people can’t just stop feeling disgust that is largely justified in most of the instances that incest occurs.
Exactly its disgusting
@@annyjones7228The children have the same biological father, their mom’s have the same sperm donor.
Donor conceived people didn’t decide to use a sperm donor, their parents did.
What does it matter that their mom’s didn’t have sex to conceive them?
Like it’d somehow be different, if they both got knocked up by screwing the mailman and didn’t tell anyone?
They better than me. I just couldn't.. I'm good luv, enjoy lol 😭😭
THIS IS WHY THE PARENTS SHOULD ALWAYS BE TOLD WHO THE DONOR IS IF THERE PLANNING ON TELLING THERE KIDS A POPULATION OF 8000 THE SAME MEN DONATE IT HAPPENS I GET THE MEN WANT TO STAY ANOMOUS BUT THE KIDS NEED TO NO THERE DNA SO THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN...... IF THEY LOVE EACHOTHER GET MARRIED
Actually, I’m going to agree with you. I think you should still go ahead and get married their half brother and half sister but medically speaking I’m a registered nurse for 35 years believe it or not I don’t think there will be any genetic challenges on that front. Close relatives, especially in the past got married all the time.
Totally disagree...that's the point of using an anonymous donor. He didn't want anyone to know and the parents didn't either. This would limit the amount of donations, if the donor is not anonymous.
@@Americanpatriot-zo2tkYou do know that groups with high rates of first cousin marriages have dramatically more birth defects and disabilities than groups that don’t, right?
How about the Pakistani British population for instance?
@@kim___P4PEven the Fertility Industry admitted years ago that permanent donor anonymity is dead and buried because 40 million and counting people have already taken ancestry tests.
We’ve even had donor conceived people die because they didn’t have accurate and up to date family health histories.
Also, many of those then mostly broke college kids who donated sperm or eggs would love to meet their biological children!
@@kim___P4PPlenty of men are up for donating sperm as a known from the beginning of a known at 18 donor.
The reason for the sperm shortage right now is that millennials as a whole are terrible at making long term relationships work, so instead of putting on their big girl panties and working on themselves and finding a man to at least coparent with. They decide to just become SMBC’s (single moms by choice).
Also ancestry testing has forced clinics to stop using one sperm donor to conceive 60, 80, or even 100 plus children.
Who wants that many half siblings?
Who wants to die young because their parents weren’t honest with them?
Who wants to hookup with a sibling?
Your my sister oh your my sister! " if you know you know" 😂
Joe Dirt
Dang that's a hard call. Not to be able to have his baby. To know he is your brother...half or whole...eek.
Not to side with incest here but I understand. They’re not family in the traditional sense they didn’t grow up together, they didn’t have those sibling moments they didn’t meet until they were basically adults. But at the same time it would be weird knowing technically you’re siblings.
Agreed. The heart was willing because the mind didn’t know. But the reality is, they shouldn’t have children, due to high probability of birth defects.
exactly, they arent really siblings. as long as they have no bio babies its fine
They are half siblings. They share DNA. This is literally incest !!! Would you guys still be OK, with this, if they were full siblings?
How many of you support this? It is a crime against nature and humanity
How in the world can either of them think this is okay and try to continue this marriage. This is just sick and so are they. They aren’t every other couple, they are brother and sister. How can he help them be okay with this? What happens when she gets pregnant and she will? What happens when others find out? What happens when the kid(s) find out because they will?
Well it’s devoid of all the reasons incest is a problem. The show eliminates the idea of children, they didn’t grow up together and it doesn’t have the power imbalance of the situation. They are two people who came to this moment independent of anything having to do with their bloodline. So essentially all things bad about it are conveniently gone.
That being said this is extremely idealized. Sure in the perfect situation the show creates it can work out but that’s not reality. Like you said, if this couple were real she would get pregnant. Unless one or both of them has a procedure. And the dominos that would have to fall for this to go down this way is silly. Sure it’s not unethical…. But it’s also pure fantasy.
I feel that there is no real right or wrong answer in this situation. They don’t have that sibling or familial bond. Both are correct in wanting to continue the relationship and not know how if they can.
Legally speaking they wouldn’t get in trouble since they were test tube babies and there aren’t any legal documents connecting them outside the sperm bank’s coded identifier of the chosen donor’s sperm.
Actually quite a few donor conceived people and lost lost siblings have said they experienced a deep connection and familiarity, when meeting for the first time. Which is probably what happened to this couple.
Also, the sperm and egg need to meet inside of a lab to be a “test tube baby”. Just putting donor sperm inside of a woman doesn’t make the resulting child a “test tube baby”.
@@86Framer okay talking about someone who was adopted and grew up in different households I don't see my half siblings as siblings ( will I date them? no, I don't want to be anywhere associated with them) but if this happened to me it'll be a lot to process but I wouldn't consider them siblings just an other person like I do now. tech we are all related to each other being distant cousins.
@@jellydelly4524 Also, would you want to know your family health history, so you don’t have a preventable early death, which is the big thing changing laws about donor and adoption anonymity these days?
@@86Framer hell no. As far as i can tell im healthy and always been healthy. I rather stay as far away to those people as I possibly can and don't want to know anymore about them then I do now
Now that they've taken the DNA test, I think that counts as a document that could be admissible in court linking them as siblings (though I'm not a lawyer). Question is, if they keep it secret why would anyone ever have cause to come after them for it in the first place?
This reminded me of a story I heard.
A couple was planning on getting married and both their parents met for the first time. If I remember correctly, the mom of the bride and the father of the groom start an affair with each other, both divorce their partners and got married to each other.
But here's the real kicker, after they did all that they then told their kids that they can't get married anymore because now they are step siblings.
@Peter_pansexual6243 that story tells me that either the parents planned It to prevent them from getting married in the first place or they chose their own happiness over their kids. Either way it wouldn't matter because there is nothing wrong step-siblings being together because they're not actually related.
@@melaniealdrich5304 uh, no. in this case it would be fine because they werent raised together and are only legally stepsiblings as of very recently. had this happened when they were kids, and they were raiswed together as stepsiblings, then it would be wrong
Is this not what happened in teen mom but the children end up getting married anyways. Eventually the parents get divorced I am pretty sure
@princesselizabeth653 in teen mom, catelynn and Tyler were already a couple then the parents started dating.
@@princesselizabeth653 I wasn't talking about a movie
Now see, this is one reason why they used to require blood tests to get married 😂
Some states still do But they don't test DNA. When you do a DNA test it is usually a saliva swab. Blood tests were/are done for STDs but also rubella. Many things were tested for but it wasn't for a familial match.
Why would a doctor, or anyone, encourage a brother and sister to marry each other? I love my husband far more than I ever thought possible but if I found out we were siblings that would be the end of the marriage. You don't marry siblings, plain and simple.
Are you sure about that? If you found out today that your husband is your half-sibling, you'd divorce him?
I guess for me I would explore the ethics of the situation. As far as I understand it the main potential damage that an incestuous relationship can cause is potential/prevalence for sexual abuse historically in incestual relationships, and genetic disorders in offspring.
Anything beyond that is simply a violation of cultural/social norms, which don’t necessarily govern what is right and wrong.
In this case, the two met as similarly aged adults and were otherwise in a pretty normal relationship, so abuse is out. So if they agree not to have children, there’s technically not a lot they’re ultimately guilty of besides being “gross” by our social standards.
If they’re not harming anybody, and they still genuinely love each other, as weird as we might find it, their relationship could still be worth salvaging.
Shows how fickle you women really are.
They were not true brother and sister because the doctor shown his own DNA chart as well and it's a 85% match between both of them together and doctor really couldn't be related to both of them. If you watched the video again so actual science has not approving right at all.
It like saying that in Africa country I have a black family members I'm related to with different languages I don't understand and I'm only a ordinary white country guy living in America and never had been outside of my America States that I was actually born Citizens of America and my ancestors are my English Founding Fathers Presidents and and related to Daniel Boone daughter Sara 1700 and overseas countries England and Scotland jumping countries to countries different families members 300 years before America became America 1600 .
I couldn’t proceed with the wedding. Can’t ever touch him again knowing that’s my damn brother. It’s disgusting.
I think the relative who sent the dna kit knew they were half siblings
The uncle totally knew
Hahahaha it has to be cause if not that’s such a crappy gift
Yooooo the uncle play way too much. He KNEW!
I don’t understand how, ethically, Iggy can try to counsel a couple that found this out. If they’re related then he can’t vie to have them continue being a couple.
I don't think it's as much Frome trying to push them back into each other's arms but rather they would not have been there seeking couples councelling if there wasnt a huge part of both of them that wants it to work and Frome sees that
This is a really complicated situation. The stigma against incest exists predominantly from religion and from the potential for birth defects in offspring, the latter of which being why Frome brings up children being out of the picture. But beyond that there's really nothing in his professional sphere as a psychologist to push him to break them up Or to bring them together based purely on their relation. They met, got together, fell in love, and planned to get married all without the slightest bit of indication that they were family in some abstract microscopic way. So as far as the psychologist is concerned, the only question is what would be better for them both emotionally: to break apart because of what a single DNA test said or to try and find a way to resolve their feelings for one another in light of it.
@@LyingTubeif you find out that your fiancé is your half-sister; you end that relationship immediately.
@@eprimeify2090 Eh, even the father of modern evolutionary theory recognised the risks of close familial coupling and still married his first cousin. To say nothing of how human emotions aren't always beholden to logical argument.
@@eprimeify2090 Assuming that they didn't grow up together, there was no weird power dynamic component, they didn't know about being related, and they take proper steps to ensure they never conceive a child together, is there really even an ethical argument to say that they shouldn't continue being a couple or marry? If they both are ok with it, I don't see anything in this specific scenario that would make it inherently wrong.
Chris is really cute and kind. I’d have no problem. They weren’t raised in a familial relationship. Those eyes his smile and that nose would be everything fir me.
Where are all the Alabama jokes?
Finding out your S/O is your 4th cousin is one thing. Half brother? 🤮 Nope, sorry, I'm out.
Is this new Amsterdam or the Targaryen's
😂😂😂
Cue the banjos!
Unfortunately, ignorance of the law is no excuse in the eyes of the justice system. Imagine their kids or other decendants down the line take a DNA test and find out there was brother/sister incest in the family tree. It would be shocking, horrifying, and worse to whomever found out more than likely. Though Iggy did say they should never, ever, have biological kids people are just not smart when it comes to that. Would've been more compelling if they already had a child.
That’s why he said biological children isn’t a option for them
Like that episode of Life Pieces where they do a family tree, and are grossed out to discover that their great-great grandparents were in fact uncle and niece.
Easy fix: you adopt and tell everyone you couldn't have kids or want to adopt because there are already so many on the planet. No questions asked.
It's more of an ethical issues than a biological one.
@@annyjones7228Why is adoption constantly touted, as being the gold standard of ethical behavior for someone who wants to become a parent?
It’s very common for adoption agencies to bully women to follow through with putting their babies for adoption, by harshly reminding them. That they’ll pay every penny back for all of the doses from prenatal vitamins to ultrasounds.
@@annyjones7228That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
What is honestly the difference between these two getting married and first cousins and siblings who grew up under the same roof together then?
A sibling is someone you grow up with. As long as they don't have kids, it's not really an issue. it's interesting how often these shows make this story. I wonder how many times it has actually happened
Umm...are we really justifying incest here? It's wrong in every way. Period.
Can't blame the couple for being together without knowing, but once they do then they should stop!
I'm distributing by the amount of people in the comments saying what's so wrong about continuing their relationship as long as they don't have kid?!
This! I was searching for this! I weep for humanity.
I agree.
And they paid for that horrible counseling session? 😂
You do NOT marry a sibling. This is sick.
They did not know they were siblinsg and they alreday did everything what couple do. Imagine if you fall in love with someone, built life and then you found out you are related.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 in your incestuous worldview, what are the ethics of a couple that both have amnesia - and “do not know” theyre siblings
@@sherrinfjord4356 I do not see anything wrong with this. Two consenting adults have right to do whatever they want with their body as long as they do not harm other person.
I think this probably far more common than anyone realizes I just found out this year that my grandparents are like 13th long distant cousins and ya it is a bit weird but they also didn't find this out till years after they got married and had kids just cuz technology wasn't the same as it is now. This case isn't black and white and he does say they shouldn't have biological kids with each other but I mean they could adopt or foster or they could have an egg donor/ surrogate I doubt they'd go the route of a sperm donor just cuz that's what caused all these problems to begin with. Just cuz you share DNA doesn't mean your family just means you share blood. Some family is chosen.
Pervert
I don’t know how you can compare a marriage between say third cousins or father removed to marrying a half sibling.
You agree that they shouldn’t reproduce with each other, without using donor sperm, eggs, or embryos. You should also know that their marriage won’t be legal and will be voided when it’s eventually revealed, which can impact healthcare, pensions, property, rights, and more.
I don’t understand how and why the concept of “chosen family” is being used to rationalize incest.
How we go from “I’m not a fan of my super conservative uncle and like my buddy Timmy more than him” to it’s fine to have sex with a sibling?
0:35 ikea shark appearance
Kids are still viable between siblings. Its the several generations of inbreeding that leads to complications. A child may recieve some bad gene pairs. But as this is the first generation, there aren't enough bad genes to cascade into health problems. Would likely show a higher than normal degree of the physical features of familiy
It definitely helps having unrelated mothers, but we don’t know what they got from their biological father.
How about going through life with your parents being siblings?
Everyone from your doctor to potential long term partners would have to be told.
Exactly especially as they are only half brother and sister.
Imo obviously the relationship is biologically wrong but if they dont have kids that's a non issue. So that leaves the moral issues which for me, its about growing up with thwm as a sibling, in the house episode with this same situation Foreman said it best. They didnt grow up taking baths together or changing each others diapers. They grew up and they met just like any two unrelated people. And they didnt know until after they developed that relationship. Imo if you didnt know it was incest before you started the relationship its not morally wrong, its only wrong if you hsve kids bc thats not fair to the kids.
Have you taken a gender studies class?
I can’t help but think of Flowers in the Attic by V.C. Andrews. 🙈
This is the downside to closed adoptions and sperm donation
It’s also unfortunately common to find “sibling pods” consisting of 60, 80, or even 100 plus half siblings with ancestry testing these days.
This therapist gotten his d doctorate from at the side of a cereal box. He's pretty manipulative and is on the side of the man from the get go instead of being a mediator and unbiased person. He totally ignored the women's feelings and her inner turmoil...
Jim, I needed this. Thank you so much for sharing
nope...nopety nope nope...you get as much money back as you can when you cancel and you both get into therapy for finding out you are related and you also do a second DNA test through a much more reputable source to double check that. If it's found that you aren't actually related, elope and question the uncle after.
Oh my goodness
I’m surprised at the doctor here.
The important thing is they can’t and/or shouldn’t have biological children, and there are ways to prevent from ever happening.
The idea of a brother and sister being yknow, together would seem disgusting to you. But I would never say or think that. I just think it will make everyone else around them very uncomfortable and disgusted and I want to be the man who doesn’t care what everyone else thinks or says
Break up. Easy as that. Emotionally it would be hard but your related by blood.
Isn’t it possible the reason they are so compatible and connected is bc biologically brother and sister. Remember Luke and Leah in Star Wars? Just saying …. there are different forms of love. Maybe the love they should have explored was siblings not matrimony which involves sexual love with a sibling.
There is sexual attraction though. That's real. They didn't settle for each other because they are a good match in every other way.
Therapist are supposed to help and advise, the best advice is to end their relationship and not try to help fix incest, because they might end up having children, possibly unintentionally, who are sick and deformed
Isn't it illegal for siblings to get married to each other. Isn't incest illegal? Why has he as a therapist not made them aware of this? According to a law firm "New York Incest in the First Degree is a Class “B” Violent Felony. As such, this charge is punishable by 5 to 25 years jail. Additionally, if you are charged with New York Incest in the First Degree, it is also likely that you will be charged with Rape in the First Degree or Criminal Sexual Act in the First Degree." This law includes half siblings.
He as a therapist has a responsibility to be unbiased, but he also has a responsibility to inform that them continuing their relationship has legal consequences. Also, since they decide to continue their relationship and get married, and if he knows that his patients are going to commit a crime, doesn't he have the responsibility to report this to the authorities without it being a violation of any doctor patient confidentiality laws?
House already did this episode but better. But I guess everything's been done...
ER did it too. Although I think in that one, the kids weren't actually related, the mom was on some kind of "Maury" type show and they paid her to tell the kids they were related. The daughter unalived herself before the mom could tell the truth. I think I'm remembering that correctly
Never watched this sitcom before and never will after seeing this clip. The therapist trying to convince a brother and sister to get married and that disgusting kiss at the end. Half or full siblings its Sickening and disturbing
Nah, get his license lifted and never allow him yo practice, this is insane.
They’re really father and daughter!
He's a terrible therapist. He's fine things like help psychopaths and now promoting incest, he should have his license revoked
What the hell? This shrink is telling these two to lie about who they are? Relationships based on lies can’t last.
When they lie to each, they don't last...
Did this man just counsel incest?!
Back in biblical days they did it all the time Abraham was married to Sarah and she was his half sister.
@Americanpatriot-zo2tk That was back in the Bible. Where they didn't know about this type of thing not really Stop comparing yourself to the old testament you're not them
@@joshualongoria8631 you’re entitled to your opinion.
@@Americanpatriot-zo2tkI don't remember that being in the bible
@@hmmm2564 yes it’s in there. He told the Egyptians it was his sister so they wouldn’t kill him. Then Yahweh sent Pharaoh a dream that it was Abrahams wife and pharaoh told/made Abraham leave!
Here’s a clip from whenever they did it on House with Jurnee Smollett and Ricky Ullman portraying a couple that find out they share the same father.
Link: ua-cam.com/video/MeCyZDdsePQ/v-deo.html
But in house they both were horrified here they tried to make it work. So weird
@@delmicortave In the House episode they grew up next door to each other, and they both knew the father they shared throughout their entire childhood, through they did not know he was the father of both of them. The father knew the whole time. That is a radically different situation, and a whole other dynamic.
Nope.
I feel like every clip of this show that I see is just a remake of other medical drama shows lmao
Something like 90% of donor conceived people born pre 2000 weren’t ever told they’re donor conceived. They tend to find out when taking an ancestry test on a whim.
This is a facinating issue. One one hand we have incest begotten due to ignorance, and on the oher is a lesser life potentially alone or with someone lesser (it seems that the love these two have for each other is rare). There is no good answer, though I think the rigth answer is the latter. Unfortunately, this kind of thing is a real issue these days, especailly due to unscrupulous donor clinics that abuse a single donor or a small pool of donors (laws usually restirct donations to like 10 kids or something - its different everywhere - but some places will use the same donor for a 100 kids). Strangely enough, cases of siblings dating are FAR more common than one would expect, even in larger cities. The hypothesis going around is that people are generally attracted to those who are genetically similar to themselves (which usually presents as similar characteristics) in order for our genes to have the highest chances of being passed on. I find the evidence somewhat compelling, but not quite enough to convince me that it should be a theory: see the countless people who are into people of other ethnicites (who would be much more different - though not significantly - genetically). Much of the issue with incest (though not all of it) is due to teh issue of chidlren. Those kids have a significannly high chance of being born with defects due to any harmful reccessive alleles the closely related parents carry. Would their relationship be ok if they never have biolgical children? What if both or one of them were to get vascectomy or hysterectomy to prevent kids? I feel bad for these two people who clearly belong together, but probably shouldn't.
I would like to mention that incest to the degree thatt hese two are doing is illegal in the US - the doctor sould NOT be trying to get them to normalize thier crime...
I don't think it's ethical to say that the "right" answer is the one with the greatest emotional misery, certainly not for a psychologist for whom the emotional wellbeing of his patients is the priority. I think the ethical solution is what Frome comes to in this scene: A continuing relationship with the awareness of the problems and risks involved, such as with having children as he explicitly addresses.
He's not saying "everyone should marry their siblings", he's saying "okay you two CLEARLY loved each-other long before you knew about this so here's the risks you should know moving forward"
We are all connected to each other.. all of us are on a giant Island we can't leave.. we all bleed the same color.. we are in a circle in a hoop That Never Ends..
😢no no no!!!
Well in my country it’s simply forbidden to marry your brother, also your half-brother. So they just don’t tell anyone and if people ask, why they don’t will have children, they will lie?
There is no rational reason to be against this relationship if they never have children. The risk of inbreeding is the reason our brains don't like it, but if we remove that risk the fear and disgust becomes purely irrational in this case. If they grew up together, the story would be different for a variety of reasons.
It's illegal to marry your sibling.
Incest is win-cest. Go enjoys your lives, kids.
Honestly as long as their children or their parents weren't closely related then their children should be fine. Full siblings have had children before that are ok. It's definitetly rare but while the chance of gene mutations is higher its not really that horrible.
Donor conceived people are always informed of that choice. Unlike people fro the big “first cousin first choice” communities ago have a super high chance of stuff like birth defects
Port Jefferson is tiny. 🤔Unless one of them was from Port Jeff Station and the other from the Village.
If they both were from the Village they would have known each other all their lives if they were that close enough in age to be going to the same university classes. Unless one of them was homeschooled but even then there's like a 1/1000 chance chance they wouldn't meet till they were at NYU.
Very unrealistic, at least to someone who grew up two towns over.😆
BLÅHAJ 🦈
it's one thing to decide to have sex with a family member, brother, cousin... and it's another to meet a stranger and discover 10 years later, he is your 'brother'... I have 2 sisters, that's my family, my world, if I were being told, my BF is in fact my brother, I don't think I could see him as such... not even sure I could believe it on an emotional level. They could have lived their all life without anyone knowing nor anyone finding it 'sick'...
are we supposed to root for them because ABSOLUTELY NOT
??????
They love each other.
@@Americanpatriot-zo2tk NO there are some relationships that should not be sexualized... but i guess you are one of those idiots who thonks its ok for a child and parent to marry because they "LOVE EACH OTHER" seriously what is wrong with you?
How far gone are we as a society that a psychiatrist is trying to justify two siblings getting married??? Dr. Frome just keeps giving L take after L take. How tf do you encourage siblings being married with a clear conscience??
I think this is the first time in my life I dont have a opinion
They should still talk to their parents. This could be the labs mistake. They don’t know.
um, forgive me, but doesn't the effects from inbreeding start well after the 1st generation? They are only half siblings. If they are both free of genetic health problems, the risk of problems in their offspring is practically the same as everyone else. (genetics fascinate me). Look at any royal family tree. Most of them were full siblings from the start and just kept going until they were literally infertile or "incompatible with life". The scenario in this clip probably plays out in the world ALOT. DNA kits are new and the only way to know.
It's impossible for anyone but them to walk a mile in their shoes. If it happened to me, I'd adopt.
It’s disgusting that’s he’s fighting so hard to encourage incest. That’s absolutely disgusting they are brother and sister
Very disturbing
I say, if you have love like that, get married. Just don't have children. Love like that only comes only once or twice in a lifetime. There's no reason why it couldn't work.
Had to go here cause i just watched this episode cause it really bothered me. I like this Dr. But disagree with his decision here. He didn't listen to what the girl said, and sided with the guy. He low-key convinced them to stay together despite being biologically related. It's just a no for me. It's just gross to think i would marry my brother, i wouldn't even date any cousin.
I’m sorry but I can’t stand how the therapist and the fiancé are. Like the woman is correct in her feelings! Their mothers should’ve given them more info about the donors, but it’s also completely valid for her to want to end things. It doesn’t matter if they don’t have children, it is still wrong on so many levels. The guy needs to see that this is just nasty. You didn’t fall in love as siblings, sure, but you’ll always know. And I don’t know about anyone else, but the thought of being physically with anyone sharing a relation to me makes me wanna vomit.
i dont even think the mothers knew how the donors were... when it's anonymous you get a generic "john joe" name on your sprem...
that opsy is fully on the clinic for allowing 2 women in such a small town use the same donor (there's a law about this and how many times a donor can be used within a certain radius of space/population)
Sounds very similar to a resdit story i read
Nah son. Ya'll gotta go your separate ways
It's illegal in all 50 states to marry a sibling or even a half sibling. What is that therapist thinking?
agreed... if they KNEW they were siblings...
like in this moment yes they do because they did that test... if they had done the test after they wouldnt have lied when getting married and since the donors were anonymous legally unless they divulge that they knew they were half siblings the law couldnt do anything about it.
so im not disagreeing with the law you've stated but it does become a grey area when info isnt told
Eww sorry but no
What I'm wondering is, why doesn't this happen more often with sperm donors? And why haven't they thought of some way of preventing it?
It’s common for donor conceived half siblings to have unknowingly gone to high school or college with each other. Born pre 2000 the vast majority weren’t told they were donor conceived and find out well into adulthood by taking an ancestry test on a whim.
The Fertility Industry and most recipient parents don’t really care about incest risks or donor conceived people having up to date family health histories.
It’s ancestry testing that has forced many clinics from using one sperm donor to father 60, 80, or even 100 plus children.
@@86Framer wow thanks for that info, so interesting about the ancestry link.
Even if people aren't religious and have no reason to care about incest per se, how could they not care about genetics? Siblings having children together is a disaster.
And statistically people tend to be attracted to their siblings.
The reason people aren't typically attracted to their siblings is because the "lack of attraction" that occurs from growing up together outweighs that.
But if siblings are raised apart and then meet there is a good chance they will be attracted to each other.
@@justincase7848 We have GSA which is attraction between siblings who didn’t grew up together.
@@justincase7848 I think some very popular gender studies people argue that incest isn’t a bad thing. Judith Butler is very popular and wrote some pro incest stuff.
Another factor is people who have an obsession with the value chosen families, to the point where. If incest doesn’t matter, then their beliefs are more valid. These are a few guesses I can think of right now.
Or maybe they were attracted to each other because they are siblings.
I get they did not choose the relationship but once they´re in the know it´s a NO. As if there aren´t countless men and women that aren´t related.
Because, let´s change the fact that they´re half siblings. Imagine if this couple was made up of a son and a mother that gave her son for adoption and, unknowingly until a DNA test and found out. Would the doctor encourage the relationship the same way?
SWEET HOME ALABAMAAAAAAAA
Isn't there a medical consultant who advises the show's writers? It is ok for persons who are both related to the same half-sibling but not to each other to marry and have children. However, a man and woman with one parent in common shoul not be married, frankly, even if it is legal, and should definitely not have biological children together.
He said that at the beginning about biological kids being out of the picture.
Marriage is a different issue.
@@annyjones7228Actually they legally can’t get married, if they’re honest about being brother and sister. It will be nullified, if discovered too.
This has huge legal implications for a lot of things.
@@86Framer We hide huge secrets from the government all, the time.
@@86Framer They're not legally siblings, though, because sperm donors aren't listed on birth certificates
@@fordhouse8bIt’s still a sword of Damocles hanging over the many important things that a valid marriage certificate provides.
They also did ancestry testing, so they’re in a database beyond their control already.
Ew
He basically forced them to be together .
This is a beautiful couple. Just have a beautiful wedding and grow a family. Those DNA kits could be testing ancestral DNA, or Fake DNA kits. I found out that my girl could be blood related to my family over 100's years ago. But she hates me and I endure her. And this made a great family.
Stuff like this has always baffled me. Aren't we programmed to seek mates that's genetivally different than us? Studies have shown the smell of someone who is very different genetically is more attractive than one that's similar. How could 2 siblings become attracted to each other? Their similar genes should be repelling the 2 of them to opposite ends of the planet.
It's a hard case as they're biologically half-siblings but they did not grew up together, did not know of each other's existence till they were adults. It's still weird to know that y'all are biologically related
Now alot of problems that are brought up in the comments are deformity of future children, in cases like these it won't cause any problems a problem only arise after a long line of inbreeding, maybe 3/4 generations in varies sometimes but if it's just 1 usually it's fine
Would i personally do it, I don't know it's certainly weird but maybe love prevails who knows
What difference does being raised together have to do with incest?
Could you imagine telling everyone you’ve had a serious relationship with that your parents are brother and sister?
What was the purpose when they were talking about DNA? They still have the same dad! Seemed like Frome gave more reason to be togthan him being neutral.
Nope!
People apparently this happens more than you know apparently especially if siblings are not acknowledged by their family members who know they are siblings one to another so when couples get a sperm donor they should immediately know if there are others with the same person and if so who the others are there should be a way of finding out even if the guy wants to remain anonymous that's all well and good but those who are getting his sperm should be told their other couples here are the names and you know they should be made aware of each other so that way this doesn't happen but it happens a lot more than most people realize and the attraction is actually real apparently was siblings who don't know their siblings it happens a lot apparently it's been scientifically proven that the attraction is even stronger in such cases and when they find out that's when the proverbial s hits the fan... And it's sad really because it should be made no they should be told ahead of time and they should be DNA testing for any couples that are born from donation,😊
9 years ? Too long
I don’t know if you know this but I have a friend who is a nurse and and she she is a a nurse nurse and she is a nurse practitioner she has been in in the the hospital hospital for a a while and she she is is a nurse and she she was was the the