I enjoyed watching this video. When I'm ready to start my Ramp Pump project I'll use irrigation pipes to save $$ and to prevent kids and hunters from damaging expensive PVC pipes
I built one a few years ago and built it with a 2 inch drive pipe and 2 inch waste but 1 -1/2 horizontal check with a 3/4 inch output pipe. Worked great for a season then I stopped growing in the field that it was pumping too.
I would mount one waste valve directly on top of a 1 inch drive line and then put the second one onto the 1/2in pipe. This what plastic is for. Research and learning. When you go to build one that your life depends on then you switch to all metal components. I went through all the different stages of ram pump building and after ten years I;m still improving and the service intervals are getting farther and farther apart. Very good experimentations you have done in this video. But if you are planning to run yer world around a homebuilt ram pump try watching "dougs ram pump" series of videos if you want to save yourself some headaches and money and especially if your world depends on it. Good job on the vid.
With this setup, it's about the same as having a larger check valve with more flow. However you can probably do these in series repeating with the valves and expansion tanks further down the line. (Accepting that it's going to reduce the overall amount at each step due to what the check valves drain from the system.)
@kuroryuu010 More flow potential isn't necessarily required. It would take longer than the fraction of a second to reach max velocity. Two valves will always be better until you reach the max velocity for the diameter and head height.
Good test. Essentially indicates a larger check valve requires greater head pressure. The pressure can be increased not only by a larger pipe, but the elevation of the water source as well. Fascinating!
Nice video and presentation. Does it matter the tank is on the opposite side of the waste valve? Investigating such configuration requires both the check and tank to be installed vertically located up stream of the waste valve. And the output valve to tap from the tank after the check valve.
@LandToHome 2" drive pipe to Y, to two separate 1" straight ram pumps back into a Y with a 3/4” output, you should be extremely efficient and high pressure.
Which is better more pressure the single waste valve or two valves. I appreciate ur video presentation its very educational and so amazing, hope to see ur new video.
I did the same system, with 60-68 psi, but i used 1" valve and 4" 8' pipe mounted to tree. Fills 12-75gal borrows. From there it goes through a ultraviolet light to 2 tank 500gal for emergency. Part of overflow goes to a tank 150gal feeds the garden, and landscaping.
If you're trying to increase the psi of the pump, there's 2 things you can do. The First is easy and mentioned briefly in the video: Simply increase the diameter of the pipe feeding the pump. The Second thing that you can do is increase the air spring. Usually that means making sure that the compression chamber is rigid and air tight, but making sure that it's insulative so that heat isn't lost to the environment. If you're going super exotic, you could try replacing the air in the compression chamber with argon, but.... that's stupid fancy.
so less pressure due to running out of water really fast... and the check valves would work properly. so i was partly right... which means you have been teaching me a lot :)
I like how you stop the video to make a guess. :) I think there will be a pressure increase when I have a larger drive pipe. I hope that there is more pressure than with a single valve. Test should show us . .. or at least be fun along the way.
I have some test to run. You have the waste valve right on the tee. What about a 6" pipe on bottom of the waste valve. Then a 6" pipe on top of the waste valve. A 3rd test with a 6" pipe on top and bottom most likely would be not good as I think the two would cancel out. Speed is the key to a ram pump. The faster the water is going at the time it trips gives you the highest pressure. I am trying to think of a water the giving the water as much time as possible before it trips.
Very curious as well. Also, what would happen if an evacuation line was attached to the waste valve to direct the waste water into a catchment? Would that extra back pressure increase psi even more?
I would like to see a set up where you capture the exhaust water and feed it back into the supply line. Maybe it would build more pressure at a lesser height.
The water-ram pressure from one of the valves is wasted shutting the other. You can see how the second valve to close "spits" water farther than the first one. That wasted water was supposed to go into the pressure chamber.
It looks like it would reduce pressure and valve wear for systems with higher flow and head pressure. May be able to run multiple 3/4” waste valves on existing system with 1-1/4” drive pipe. Looking forward to the follow up.
Can you simulate the ram pump inside the Great pyramid of Giza. We have a descending passage, a valve, same descending passage with a valve at the end. The first valve goes to ascending passage, the gallery, the pressure chamber with those capacitor like blocks and Queen chamber where the water goes out. The air shaft with two electrodes to jumpstart the valve and let water to go down to the bottom valve which becomes closed and the shock wave will close the upper valve up the ascending passage and fill up the queens chamber. Another valve on side of king chamber pushes the water out until the outside pressure closes it and the mid valve closed again for water to rush down the descending passage to the bottom of pyramid unto the lower check sliding valve.
I never even seen your comment and I had the same idea, lol, I think 2" drive into two 1" normal pumps out to a single manifold and a 3/4" output, should see awesome pressure and efficiency
If the volume and pressure of driving water even the same diameter of ram pump and drive pipe you can install even 4" waste valve. I done this, my ram pump working very well and can deliver good volume of water eventhough of more than 40 meter of vertical height and 300 meter away from the ram pump.
Hi, Thanks for this test and clear explanation. Would you have a design and description of components with assembly instructions? I can’t wait to try this!
@@LandtoHouse EVER THOUGHT OF INSTALLING A RUBBER MEMBRANE IN THE PRESSURE TANK MAYBE 3/4 OF THE WAY UP ? I BELIEVE IT WOULD VASTLY IMPROVE THE PRESSURE ON THE DELIVERY SIDE BY EXPANDING TOWARDS THE TOP AND SNAP BACK LIKE A RUBBER BAND
@@LandtoHouse you mean like stretched across the circumference of the air chamber ? I would think it would act like a pump or mechanical heart, expanding and contracting
@@mw10259 the tube inside the tank does that some. I dont think it would hold well strapped across the circumference. The pump can build 70+ psi with delivery pipe closed.
One thing you can do is try to remove or add some weight or a soft spring to the valves and see the results. In my opinion the flow valve must be as light as possible and the waste valve may be a bit heavier for more preasure and les flow and lighter for less preasure more flow and les waisted water.
In traditional ram pumps the waste valve had an adjustable weight to make changes based on the drive pipe length. I am actually in the middle of changing over all Land To House ram pumps to Stainless Steel waste valves. This should really help in water pumped because it is a bit heavy.
would id be better to start intake with say 4 inch pipe and reduce the size until you get 1/2 inch pipe to pump as I understand it would give it more pressure at the pump
That actually is not good for the ram pump. Because the pressure wave travels in both uphill and downhill directions it is counter productive to push against the larger volume of water uphill.
If you have a higher elevation of head pressure and enough volume of water to drive the pump, it can deliver a more volume and higher lift. I tested this system already.
The swing disk inside the check-valve works off of pressure and gravity. When you tilt the check valve you are lowering the gravity-force on the swing disk. The tilt can be calibrated by trial and error for the optimum inlet pressure to gravity ratio. The total feet of head coming from the feed pipe needs to be measured to make these tests relevant. Also, the more output GPM flow the less output pressure the pump can produce.
I think that if you made everything 2 inch pipe you will get much better. Some where someone said that the drive pipe should be twice the size of the output. You may get the higher pressure if everything is 2 inch until the out put pipe with just one bleed valve. But check it with 2 just to see. I have never made one just going from what another video was saying.
You have heard correctly but the waste valve needs to match the drive pipe. So the delivery would actually need to be smaller. The good news is that delivery pipe size does not matter as long as it's big enough to prevent friction loss.
So a question, just out of interest sake. What would the result be if you had the vales in parallel and not in series? So, 2 separate buckets of water feeding 2 separate vales that feed one pressure cylinder, that feeds one outflow?
I love experimenting. What if the inlet of your Supply or drive pipe (3 inches diameter at 10 meters long) is only elevated a meter above your Ram pump, would this be a good set-up? Would this give you good pressure to deliver the water to an elevation of 50 meters above the pump? What will be good to use a single Waste valve or the double?
What about adding the second check-valve on the siphon line, up close to the source (not as a waste valve)? I'm wondering if it might be able to add a 2nd, smaller water-hammer at the pump by stopping the shock-wave from making it back to bucket.
For future tests, you should attach an output hose from the pump to another bucket to see how much water is pumped in relation to how much is wasted by the pump.
Would this setup work using a water butt to evenly irrigate a lawn and flower bed? If the butt was at the top of the garden and the pump was at the bottom then just lay some underground pipes?
I think, if you wanted to increase efficiency, the best way to do it would be to increase the volume of the air chamber. Once the 2nd valve closes, there would be more volume of compressed air to push water out the output before the system cascades and resets itself.
I am thinking that the best efficiency is finding the correct length drive pipe for the head pressure. Also weighting the waste valve to match the head pressure also increases the efficiency. The double waste valve thought was fun but not practical.
That makes sense. Also it might be worth experimenting with different check valves to see if different types work more or less efficiently. I think that the amount of back flow required to close the in-line check valve may play a big part in the volume of each cycle of the pump because, for a moment, the flow actually reverses until the check valve closes.
Dude, I found the Clemson site years ago and have been running a 11/4" system. I could have told you everything you have discovered. The problem I have is wearing out the brass swing check valves same with the spring type valves.
The Clemson University information is very helpful. But I'm enjoying making the UA-cam videos with the same information. I've been using a stainless steel valve for the past year and it has been remarkably well. But they're so heavy it limits the situations that the ram pump can be used in
@@LandtoHouse I'd like to make my own valves but I don't have what I need to do it right. I get a year sometimes two and I don't pull it until the water is too high. Where are you getting the valve?
I sourced valves from China. The stainless steel would last 5+ years I am sure but the valve needs to be tilted at 15 degrees just to close. Too heavy. I have thought about making a diy valve just for fun.
Great video!. If the upright plastic tube was in creased in volume , would that allow a greater area for compression or back pressure Im not quite sure how this tube affects the running of the pump.
The pressure tank allows for pressure to build so that water can be moved up hill. If you increase the size of the tank it does allow for a larger volume of air to be compressed. But does not increase the potential. It basically is a cushion if the delivery pipe is opened too quickly.
If you catch the waste water from a 1/2 waste gate would it be enough to keep a 2nd 1/4 pump going and T the outputs together, would help with efficiency
what about using pipe glue and stronger abs pipe and fitting where its possible and brass valve min.3/4 size ? your video good thanks and best regards.
I have a pond with still water...Would this pump move the water appox a hundred yards to the drain ditch....There is no levee around the pond and the pond is appox twenty feet deep.....
Dude, In this particular set up, try to install, inches before the two waste valves, a larger diameter drive pipe (say, 3-4 inch dia. x 4 or 5 feet long) I pretty sure there will be an increase in pressure in the system. Hope to watch this experiment soon to see if my theory is right.😉
Increasing the size of the drive pipe to accommodate for the extra water requirement did work. I have not however tried to use a very large Drive pipe just before the pump. In my experience I have found that the pump can cycle too quickly if the drive pipe is too large.
@@LandtoHouse try using a modified (no spring?) foot valve as your waste valve, because the intake pressure is quite stronger due to the "oversize" pipe.
This is 2 yrs old but you need a surge tank between each check valuve but one of them surge tanks will have to be bigger or taller . One surge tank or pressure tank wont do it like it should
I like the experiment... A few comments... This is why ram pumps get sized up by scale as a unit... also... I think a better "gauge" of the efficiency is delivery volume to a specified height rather than PSI built. I am curious if the double-impulse wave will move more water volume vs the single impulse wave. Thanks for experimenting!
At first I was thinking the same thing about scale BUT I think there is more to it that that. In the past I have found that each size pump works on the same ratio input to output. Adding the waste valve should increase the strength of pressure wave and allow a pump to pump higher with greater flow rate. I agree about moving water as a test. I will do that for sure. I just wanted to give this a first try.
I think the limiter you run into is the pipe diameter ultimately... if you haven't already... look into laminar flow and pipe resistance. I have some ideas I want to try this year on my ram system. Just in from making some upgrades to the dam and supply line... Can't wait to go tomorrow in daylight and film the difference! Cheers! Keep testing!
I just watched your new videos. Seems like the improvements are working well. It might be possible to use the double waste valve to improve your flow rate too. I will try and get to the test soon.
OK... I am certainly curious to see what you can achieve and what results you get. I am able to adjust my flow right via the weights on my modified foot valve: ua-cam.com/video/grBdwsrsOA8/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/M-g2kpysKYo/v-deo.html also, you might appreciate my "scalability" video: ua-cam.com/video/x6s2NUe2cY0/v-deo.html Let's keep hashing out all the tricks of the trade!
I think I mistakenly read your first comment as a "greater volume" improves output. But you actually said "movement of volume" which is what I referre to as flow rate. So in that case you are 100% correct. I was just miss matching terms. Nice videos. Adjusting the weights on the waste valve is a very effective means of controlling the pump. I typically scale down the entire system to accommodate for summer low-flow but in your case you can just adjust the waste valve for low-flow to a point. With swing valve that option is not available.
Just curious, could you augment the pressure on the supply side by means of borrowing some pressure by looping back a small line from the output end back to the supply line ahead of the waste valves?
implementing some permaculture solutions will help your land immensely.. "too much water" isn't a problem... you just must redirect the overflow with small trenches..hardly any depression allows the water to be diverted and carried to the peaks of your property...using about a 1-2% grade it allows the landscape to absorb water and not erode your hillside...recharging the aquifer helps for more springs to develop on higher elevations.. I have a several thousand acre permaculture project I'm in the early stages of developing near Yakima WA. Regreening the desert and helping to provide a model of transformation to recreate the food and resource abundance the Garden of Eden provided. With localization of resource and human needs for well being...it moves everyone, everywhere into freedom and away from the perception of centralized freedumb.
third thing to test is the flow rate of the delivery pipe. How about testing a 3/4 pump with only a 1/2 waste valve, against a 3/4 pump with a 3/4 waste valve.
Back pressure on the check valves would stop the whole process in my opinion. If you allowed the waste to fill a storage tank and pumped from it further downhill sure it would work. I have not tested this but it seems logical because the check valves are working off resistance.
Can u tell me if a larger intake diam to ram pump will drive an reduced outlet pipe with greater pressure? Vs equal in and out diameter pipes... Revere your opinion on this subject undoubtedly. Your reply may well determine success of a waterfall project here in North Queensland. Where I've an established cnr ravine waterfall into never dry sometimes huge Millstream river. With peak rain refreshing the often dry 50m waterfall. I plan to make this a future feature of the district, a self driven ecosystem Just subscribed but viewed long time even retweeted your channel on occasion in past few years Thanks again for great practical viewing...
Thank you for watching for a long time! I have found that it is best to use the same size drive pipe as waste valves. This is because the pressure wave going and coming need to be the same size. Now the delivery pipe from the pump can be any size you like. Atmospheric pressure is the main thing that effects the delivery and we dont change that pressure by pipe size.
I've got to pump water up about 300' with a 40-50 foot elevation. I will be drawing water from a fast-moving river. I have a 1 1/4 " ram pump. Will a taller compression chamber help get water up higher? Any suggestions? Heading to Alaska in a couple of days to try to make this work. Thanks for any tips.
To pump water up to that height you're going to need approximately 8 feet of head pressure. That's drop in your water source. A taller pressure tank actually does not help past a certain volume.
@@LandtoHouse Thanks, my friend. To be clear, 8' of head pressure means the water source needs to be 8' above the pump? Will a stand pipe help my situation ?
1 more question. What about using a 2nd pump midway up the hill? Go up as far as possible, then turn the pipe back downhill for 8-10' then add a 2nd pump to get further up the hill?
According to the fundamental laws of conservation of (kinetic vs. potential) energy and conservation of momentum, the distance from the water source to 'pump' should be insignificant ... in a perfect or extremely well designed situation. However, using smaller diameter piping and long runs of that piping will only 'bleed off' the available energy via FRICTION; the developed friction will mathematically reduce the 'static height' and 'mass flow' of the in-feed water !!!!!!!!!! Secondly and still observing the same laws of physics, the use of two check valves on the drive pipe section will/can increase the 'time interval' of the impact (hydraulic shock) which results in LESS impact (hydraulic shock); hence LESS energy transfer !! The longer the time duration of impact, the less energy is transferred!!!! Use a BIGGER valve, not two valves on the drive piping ..... and increase the diameter of the drive pipe to lessen frictional losses of the input water. In hydraulic systems - larger diameter, the least amount of 'transitional' piping, smooth internal pipe surfaces, & long radius elbows, etc. is always 'best' when optimizing 'performance'. One must usually economically 'balance' the extra cost vs. system efficiency --- test (breadboard experiment) to arrive at 'optimum'. FWIW - there are formulas to calculate such frictional losses vs. flow rate and developed pressures in piping, on the internet .... such as www.engineeringtoolbox.com , etc. etc. Transitions of internal diameters (so-called 'adapter' fittings), short-radius ('close' or 90°) elbows, poorly designed (check and throttle) valves will greatly contribute to additive frictional values ... for less flow and less static/dynamic head pressure when the system is operating. What youre looking to do is to keep your flow in the drive pipe 'laminar' (non-turbulent) to keep the friction loss to an absolute minimum. One can make their own l-o-n-g radius elbows in plastic pipe by filling with sand and applying heat ... and then bending to the desired 'long transition' shape. Short 90° elbows and non-smooth changes in the internal diameter of piping are the prime 'robbers' of energy in any piping system; the long radiused and 'smooth' ('bell mouthed') transition of diameters cause less 'turbulence' of the liquid flow. FWIW2 - The use of poppit type check valves usually have greater 'impact' ('faster' impact time); hence, should increase the impact & momentum of the energy transfer, .... which is what 'drives' the system. hope this helps ;-)
Better @1" for volume and raise the one closest to the pressure chamber to a height just above the second one that is close to the drive pipe for a pressure kick 😉
stopped video at 1:03 and have not read comments yet... im gonna guess here that the 2 check valves drain bucket faster IF they work at all, but there will be less water out the end of pump. maybe more pressure though...
What about a one way valve on your supply head to keep the pressure of the closing exhaust valves from traveling to your supply?? Would putting the one way valve closer or further from your pump increase the efficiency?
Actually installing a 1way valve in the drive pipe will stop the pump. The pressure wave needs to travel the full distance back to the source to build momentum.
What about having another one way valve in the direction of flow before the waste valve? Could send the shockwave to the pressure tank rather than back up the supply line.
you should try a tesla valve in the drive pipe instead of 2 waste valves. this restricts the puls back in the drive pipe leaving more energy to create pressure
A Tesla valve is designed to constantly allow flow in One Direction. It doesn't have that sudden snap to create the water hammer. I don't think it would work.
I enjoyed watching this video. When I'm ready to start my Ramp Pump project I'll use irrigation pipes to save $$ and to prevent kids and hunters from damaging expensive PVC pipes
I built one a few years ago and built it with a 2 inch drive pipe and 2 inch waste but 1 -1/2 horizontal check with a 3/4 inch output pipe. Worked great for a season then I stopped growing in the field that it was pumping too.
How much of a lift did you have and what pressure also at what rate per min/hr
I would mount one waste valve directly on top of a 1 inch drive line and then put the second one onto the 1/2in pipe. This what plastic is for. Research and learning. When you go to build one that your life depends on then you switch to all metal components.
I went through all the different stages of ram pump building and after ten years I;m still improving and the service intervals are getting farther and farther apart.
Very good experimentations you have done in this video.
But if you are planning to run yer world around a homebuilt ram pump try watching "dougs ram pump" series of videos if you want to save yourself some headaches and money and especially if your world depends on it.
Good job on the vid.
With this setup, it's about the same as having a larger check valve with more flow. However you can probably do these in series repeating with the valves and expansion tanks further down the line. (Accepting that it's going to reduce the overall amount at each step due to what the check valves drain from the system.)
@kuroryuu010 More flow potential isn't necessarily required. It would take longer than the fraction of a second to reach max velocity. Two valves will always be better until you reach the max velocity for the diameter and head height.
Good test. Essentially indicates a larger check valve requires greater head pressure. The pressure can be increased not only by a larger pipe, but the elevation of the water source as well. Fascinating!
Yes well said. But increasing the valve size is not lifting water higher. Seems like it's best to just increase the pump size.
Seems like valves shut based on flow rate, so although increasing feed pipe diameter doesn't increase pressure, it does increase flow rate
Nice video and presentation.
Does it matter the tank is on the opposite side of the waste valve?
Investigating such configuration requires both the check and tank to be installed vertically located up stream of the waste valve. And the output valve to tap from the tank after the check valve.
@LandToHome 2" drive pipe to Y, to two separate 1" straight ram pumps back into a Y with a 3/4” output, you should be extremely efficient and high pressure.
Which is better more pressure the single waste valve or two valves. I appreciate ur video presentation its very educational and so amazing, hope to see ur new video.
I did the same system, with 60-68 psi, but i used 1" valve and 4" 8' pipe mounted to tree.
Fills 12-75gal borrows. From there it goes through a ultraviolet light
to 2 tank 500gal for emergency. Part of overflow goes to a tank 150gal feeds the garden, and landscaping.
New at hydro systems. I built a 3/4'' ram pump. Works great. I have a low flow water supply.Have you tested a 1/2'' check valve on a 3/4'' pump?
If you're trying to increase the psi of the pump, there's 2 things you can do.
The First is easy and mentioned briefly in the video: Simply increase the diameter of the pipe feeding the pump.
The Second thing that you can do is increase the air spring. Usually that means making sure that the compression chamber is rigid and air tight, but making sure that it's insulative so that heat isn't lost to the environment. If you're going super exotic, you could try replacing the air in the compression chamber with argon, but.... that's stupid fancy.
From my tests I find the best way to increase PSI is just add more head pressure to the system.
@@LandtoHouse if you mean distance down stream not practical. downstream is someone else's land.
These things are great. We should all thank Joseph Michel Montgolfier for all of his great inventions.
Yes he was brilliant
You are a true benefit to humanity-THANK YOU!
so less pressure due to running out of water really fast... and the check valves would work properly. so i was partly right... which means you have been teaching me a lot :)
I like how you stop the video to make a guess. :) I think there will be a pressure increase when I have a larger drive pipe. I hope that there is more pressure than with a single valve. Test should show us . .. or at least be fun along the way.
I have some test to run. You have the waste valve right on the tee. What about a 6" pipe on bottom of the waste valve. Then a 6" pipe on top of the waste valve. A 3rd test with a 6" pipe on top and bottom most likely would be not good as I think the two would cancel out. Speed is the key to a ram pump. The faster the water is going at the time it trips gives you the highest pressure. I am trying to think of a water the giving the water as much time as possible before it trips.
Very curious as well. Also, what would happen if an evacuation line was attached to the waste valve to direct the waste water into a catchment? Would that extra back pressure increase psi even more?
I would like to see a set up where you capture the exhaust water and feed it back into the supply line. Maybe it would build more pressure at a lesser height.
The water-ram pressure from one of the valves is wasted shutting the other. You can see how the second valve to close "spits" water farther than the first one. That wasted water was supposed to go into the pressure chamber.
It looks like it would reduce pressure and valve wear for systems with higher flow and head pressure. May be able to run multiple 3/4” waste valves on existing system with 1-1/4” drive pipe. Looking forward to the follow up.
The pump actually did a great job! I used the 3/4" drive pipe with the 1/2" valves and was able to get twice the output vs a single 3/4" valve.
Can you simulate the ram pump inside the Great pyramid of Giza. We have a descending passage, a valve, same descending passage with a valve at the end. The first valve goes to ascending passage, the gallery, the pressure chamber with those capacitor like blocks and Queen chamber where the water goes out. The air shaft with two electrodes to jumpstart the valve and let water to go down to the bottom valve which becomes closed and the shock wave will close the upper valve up the ascending passage and fill up the queens chamber. Another valve on side of king chamber pushes the water out until the outside pressure closes it and the mid valve closed again for water to rush down the descending passage to the bottom of pyramid unto the lower check sliding valve.
I'd like to see you Manifold Two Ram Pumps together, one supply line feeding two Ram Pumps, and manifold both Ram Pumps to one output line
I never even seen your comment and I had the same idea, lol, I think 2" drive into two 1" normal pumps out to a single manifold and a 3/4" output, should see awesome pressure and efficiency
So what is your conclusion? Single waste valve or double waste valve to deliver water faster? Without mention the hight yet
If the volume and pressure of driving water even the same diameter of ram pump and drive pipe you can install even 4" waste valve. I done this, my ram pump working very well and can deliver good volume of water eventhough of more than 40 meter of vertical height and 300 meter away from the ram pump.
Hi,
Thanks for this test and clear explanation. Would you have a design and description of components with assembly instructions? I can’t wait to try this!
Running in series only helps if you have too much flow for the system.
You need to run them in staggered parallel.
I agree
I would go with the 3/4" T's. Can't wait to see how this preforms. Thanks
I think you are right. This needs to have the larger t's all the way to the valves.
@@LandtoHouse EVER THOUGHT OF INSTALLING A RUBBER MEMBRANE IN THE PRESSURE TANK MAYBE 3/4 OF THE WAY UP ? I BELIEVE IT WOULD VASTLY IMPROVE THE PRESSURE ON THE DELIVERY SIDE BY EXPANDING TOWARDS THE TOP AND SNAP BACK LIKE A RUBBER BAND
I've used bicycle inner tubes and that does seem to supply some snapback. I hope to test out a house water pressure tank this summer.
@@LandtoHouse you mean like stretched across the circumference of the air chamber ? I would think it would act like a pump or mechanical heart, expanding and contracting
@@mw10259 the tube inside the tank does that some. I dont think it would hold well strapped across the circumference. The pump can build 70+ psi with delivery pipe closed.
非常有趣的实验，解决了我的疑问，thank you👍
One thing you can do is try to remove or add some weight or a soft spring to the valves and see the results. In my opinion the flow valve must be as light as possible and the waste valve may be a bit heavier for more preasure and les flow and lighter for less preasure more flow and les waisted water.
In traditional ram pumps the waste valve had an adjustable weight to make changes based on the drive pipe length. I am actually in the middle of changing over all Land To House ram pumps to Stainless Steel waste valves. This should really help in water pumped because it is a bit heavy.
would id be better to start intake with say 4 inch pipe and reduce the size until you get 1/2 inch pipe to pump as I understand it would give it more pressure at the pump
That actually is not good for the ram pump. Because the pressure wave travels in both uphill and downhill directions it is counter productive to push against the larger volume of water uphill.
have you ever floated a big ball in the accumlator tank....
If you have a higher elevation of head pressure and enough volume of water to drive the pump, it can deliver a more volume and higher lift. I tested this system already.
My test showed more volume but same height. I need to retest this one.
The swing disk inside the check-valve works off of pressure and gravity. When you tilt the check valve you are lowering the gravity-force on the swing disk. The tilt can be calibrated by trial and error for the optimum inlet pressure to gravity ratio. The total feet of head coming from the feed pipe needs to be measured to make these tests relevant. Also, the more output GPM flow the less output pressure the pump can produce.
I think that if you made everything 2 inch pipe you will get much better. Some where someone said that the drive pipe should be twice the size of the output. You may get the higher pressure if everything is 2 inch until the out put pipe with just one bleed valve. But check it with 2 just to see. I have never made one just going from what another video was saying.
You have heard correctly but the waste valve needs to match the drive pipe. So the delivery would actually need to be smaller. The good news is that delivery pipe size does not matter as long as it's big enough to prevent friction loss.
So a question, just out of interest sake. What would the result be if you had the vales in parallel and not in series?
So, 2 separate buckets of water feeding 2 separate vales that feed one pressure cylinder, that feeds one outflow?
This is my thought too. Works for electricity.
I love experimenting. What if the inlet of your Supply or drive pipe (3 inches diameter at 10 meters long) is only elevated a meter above your Ram pump, would this be a good set-up? Would this give you good pressure to deliver the water to an elevation of 50 meters above the pump? What will be good to use a single Waste valve or the double?
What about adding the second check-valve on the siphon line, up close to the source (not as a waste valve)? I'm wondering if it might be able to add a 2nd, smaller water-hammer at the pump by stopping the shock-wave from making it back to bucket.
Don't you think that in-line spring operated check valves will hinder the water flow?
For future tests, you should attach an output hose from the pump to another bucket to see how much water is pumped in relation to how much is wasted by the pump.
Yes indeed! That is on my list for the summer. I have 3 videos filmed and ready to go. At least 15 more in the line up.
Awesome. Love the Ram Pump videos, keep them coming!... What if you had two drive pipes, with two (or four) waste valves going into the one pump?
That is a good question. I might have to give multiple drive pipes a test after we learn about double waste valves.
Can't wait to see the results!
How about turning the check valves so the checks are parallel to the flow thus increasing efficiency of the valves and not loosing too much water?
Would this setup work using a water butt to evenly irrigate a lawn and flower bed? If the butt was at the top of the garden and the pump was at the bottom then just lay some underground pipes?
I think, if you wanted to increase efficiency, the best way to do it would be to increase the volume of the air chamber. Once the 2nd valve closes, there would be more volume of compressed air to push water out the output before the system cascades and resets itself.
I am thinking that the best efficiency is finding the correct length drive pipe for the head pressure. Also weighting the waste valve to match the head pressure also increases the efficiency. The double waste valve thought was fun but not practical.
That makes sense. Also it might be worth experimenting with different check valves to see if different types work more or less efficiently. I think that the amount of back flow required to close the in-line check valve may play a big part in the volume of each cycle of the pump because, for a moment, the flow actually reverses until the check valve closes.
Hai, what would happen if the pressure tank is leaking ? I will appreciate with your response.
Dude, I found the Clemson site years ago and have been running a 11/4" system. I could have told you everything you have discovered. The problem I have is wearing out the brass swing check valves same with the spring type valves.
The Clemson University information is very helpful. But I'm enjoying making the UA-cam videos with the same information.
I've been using a stainless steel valve for the past year and it has been remarkably well. But they're so heavy it limits the situations that the ram pump can be used in
@@LandtoHouse I'd like to make my own valves but I don't have what I need to do it right. I get a year sometimes two and I don't pull it until the water is too high. Where are you getting the valve?
I sourced valves from China. The stainless steel would last 5+ years I am sure but the valve needs to be tilted at 15 degrees just to close. Too heavy.
I have thought about making a diy valve just for fun.
@@LandtoHouse too heavy? Swing or spring loaded? I checked ebay and the prices are doable if they last beyond two years.
Great video!. If the upright plastic tube was in creased in volume , would that allow a greater area for compression or back pressure Im not quite sure how this tube affects the running of the pump.
The pressure tank allows for pressure to build so that water can be moved up hill. If you increase the size of the tank it does allow for a larger volume of air to be compressed. But does not increase the potential. It basically is a cushion if the delivery pipe is opened too quickly.
So a larger diameter pressure chamber should be more efficient, right?
What do you think you would get with the waste valves in parallel? Why did you first decide on both in series with each other?
Did you try adding a air vent pipe sticking straight up in the middle of the pipe going from the bucket at top to the ram pump?
I'm not sure that's what I'd want to see. I think I'd like to see what would happen if you added a second ram pump about halfway up your drive pipe.
How would running two RAM pumps out of a large drive pipe work??
I think that the changing water level in the bucket affects the pressure in your delivery pipe
is there a way of reusing the waste water? i was thinking a one way valve connected to a hose sucking up the waste water collected in a bucket.
An excess water collecter beneath areas where u lose water therefore you'd regain any lost water that can go back into source bucket
If you catch the waste water from a 1/2 waste gate would it be enough to keep a 2nd 1/4 pump going and T the outputs together, would help with efficiency
I am about to do a test with 1" pump and 1/2" pump together like that. Should answer the question.
Could place 1" pump above a old bath tub with pipe at the bottom to feed 1/2,
what about using pipe glue and stronger abs pipe and fitting where its possible and brass valve min.3/4 size ? your video good thanks and best regards.
I have a pond with still water...Would this pump move the water appox a hundred yards to the drain ditch....There is no levee around the pond and the pond is appox twenty feet deep.....
I use 1/2 check valve for my waste water and 1 inch check valve for its pressure tank, is it possible to get more pressure for its tank?
Can you run two ram pumps in series to pump water further than 1 will go?
Dude, In this particular set up, try to install, inches before the two waste valves, a larger diameter drive pipe (say, 3-4 inch dia. x 4 or 5 feet long) I pretty sure there will be an increase in pressure in the system.
Hope to watch this experiment soon to see if my theory is right.😉
Increasing the size of the drive pipe to accommodate for the extra water requirement did work. I have not however tried to use a very large Drive pipe just before the pump. In my experience I have found that the pump can cycle too quickly if the drive pipe is too large.
@@LandtoHouse try using a modified (no spring?) foot valve as your waste valve, because the intake pressure is quite stronger due to the "oversize" pipe.
Install a pipe connected to your waste water valve back to the bucket(source water) will the pump work indefenitely?
yes
What is the max height difference of the bucket and the ramp pump at 25 ft distance, Sir.
What if instead of having the check valve instead of wasting to the atmosphere the waste went to the ram?
Your tilting will be more effective if the valve opens to the right or left as opposed to length wise.
This is 2 yrs old but you need a surge tank between each check valuve but one of them surge tanks will have to be bigger or taller . One surge tank or pressure tank wont do it like it should
I like the experiment... A few comments... This is why ram pumps get sized up by scale as a unit...
also... I think a better "gauge" of the efficiency is delivery volume to a specified height rather than PSI built. I am curious if the double-impulse wave will move more water volume vs the single impulse wave. Thanks for experimenting!
At first I was thinking the same thing about scale BUT I think there is more to it that that. In the past I have found that each size pump works on the same ratio input to output. Adding the waste valve should increase the strength of pressure wave and allow a pump to pump higher with greater flow rate. I agree about moving water as a test. I will do that for sure. I just wanted to give this a first try.
I think the limiter you run into is the pipe diameter ultimately... if you haven't already... look into laminar flow and pipe resistance. I have some ideas I want to try this year on my ram system. Just in from making some upgrades to the dam and supply line... Can't wait to go tomorrow in daylight and film the difference! Cheers! Keep testing!
I just watched your new videos. Seems like the improvements are working well. It might be possible to use the double waste valve to improve your flow rate too. I will try and get to the test soon.
OK... I am certainly curious to see what you can achieve and what results you get. I am able to adjust my flow right via the weights on my modified foot valve: ua-cam.com/video/grBdwsrsOA8/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/M-g2kpysKYo/v-deo.html
also, you might appreciate my "scalability" video:
ua-cam.com/video/x6s2NUe2cY0/v-deo.html
Let's keep hashing out all the tricks of the trade!
I think I mistakenly read your first comment as a "greater volume" improves output. But you actually said "movement of volume" which is what I referre to as flow rate. So in that case you are 100% correct. I was just miss matching terms. Nice videos. Adjusting the weights on the waste valve is a very effective means of controlling the pump. I typically scale down the entire system to accommodate for summer low-flow but in your case you can just adjust the waste valve for low-flow to a point. With swing valve that option is not available.
Just curious, could you augment the pressure on the supply side by means of borrowing some pressure by looping back a small line from the output end back to the supply line ahead of the waste valves?
thanks for sharing
Why didn’t u have the water line run to both check valve at same time then back to the tall. Chamber
I like these experiments.. :)
Yes me too! Now that its not 30 degrees out I can get back to ram pumps.
Make a nice geothermal greenhouse cooled to +10 summer or winter for a workshop. Prob cost 2k if bending the steel conduit 10ft pipe yourself. :)
The pump is capable of traveling a very long ways. The limiting factor is the lift. With only 20 ft you are well within the capabilities
TRY INSTALLING TWO AIR CHAMBERS ...1ST BEFORE THE 1ST VALVE AND THE SECOND AFTER THE THE FIRST VALVE BUT BEFORE THE SECOND VALVE
It s more like a Darlington circuitry... would love to see the results though
can you use a garden hose to feed line will it work or dose have to bee a rigid pipe coming in and going out
implementing some permaculture solutions will help your land immensely.. "too much water" isn't a problem... you just must redirect the overflow with small trenches..hardly any depression allows the water to be diverted and carried to the peaks of your property...using about a 1-2% grade it allows the landscape to absorb water and not erode your hillside...recharging the aquifer helps for more springs to develop on higher elevations.. I have a several thousand acre permaculture project I'm in the early stages of developing near Yakima WA. Regreening the desert and helping to provide a model of transformation to recreate the food and resource abundance the Garden of Eden provided. With localization of resource and human needs for well being...it moves everyone, everywhere into freedom and away from the perception of centralized freedumb.
In some states, like Va, you can be fined big bucks for redirecting creeks and streams by e.p.a even on your own land.
I hear it's also not good to save rain water in some places.
third thing to test is the flow rate of the delivery pipe.
How about testing a 3/4 pump with only a 1/2 waste valve, against a 3/4 pump with a 3/4 waste valve.
Crazy thought, could you go down stream and connect the waste water to another ram pump or is that asking too much of gravity?
Back pressure on the check valves would stop the whole process in my opinion. If you allowed the waste to fill a storage tank and pumped from it further downhill sure it would work. I have not tested this but it seems logical because the check valves are working off resistance.
What if you put 2 , 1/2 punps together the first one running the second one.
Were you a submarine nuke trained mechanic? We used to have "Theory-To-Practice" training, you have it bad! Me too. Great videos, thanks.
Can deep wheel works for this ram pump as source of water? Tnx
Sir. Please try to increase the height of pressure tube and check..
Can u tell me if a larger intake diam to ram pump will drive an reduced outlet pipe with greater pressure? Vs equal in and out diameter pipes...
Revere your opinion on this subject undoubtedly.
Your reply may well determine success of a waterfall project here in North Queensland. Where I've an established cnr ravine waterfall into never dry sometimes huge Millstream river. With peak rain refreshing the often dry 50m waterfall. I plan to make this a future feature of the district, a self driven ecosystem
Just subscribed but viewed long time even retweeted your channel on occasion in past few years
Thanks again for great practical viewing...
Thank you for watching for a long time! I have found that it is best to use the same size drive pipe as waste valves. This is because the pressure wave going and coming need to be the same size. Now the delivery pipe from the pump can be any size you like. Atmospheric pressure is the main thing that effects the delivery and we dont change that pressure by pipe size.
I've got to pump water up about 300' with a 40-50 foot elevation. I will be drawing water from a fast-moving river. I have a 1 1/4 " ram pump. Will a taller compression chamber help get water up higher? Any suggestions? Heading to Alaska in a couple of days to try to make this work. Thanks for any tips.
To pump water up to that height you're going to need approximately 8 feet of head pressure. That's drop in your water source. A taller pressure tank actually does not help past a certain volume.
@@LandtoHouse Thanks, my friend. To be clear, 8' of head pressure means the water source needs to be 8' above the pump? Will a stand pipe help my situation ?
1 more question. What about using a 2nd pump midway up the hill? Go up as far as possible, then turn the pipe back downhill for 8-10' then add a 2nd pump to get further up the hill?
Thumb rule ~ more inlet flow = more tank pressure. Manifold intake👍
Just put a few cinder blocks under the bucket to drive 2 valves without increasing the feed line size.
Link to the follow up video! Higher pressure is very important to some of us.
I think that a taller pressure pipe will raise lift hight and pressure.
If you have a good head and volume of water, it is better to double the waste valve, more volume if water deliver
Meaning have 2 waste valves? Yes so true. To a point. It will still deliver to the same height but have more water.
Is the distance from the water source to rump pump important? Also do I have to use pvc pipe or rubber house is sufficient?
The distance needs to be longer than 25 feet but less than 100. rubber hose won't work. Pvc is a much better option.
According to the fundamental laws of conservation of (kinetic vs. potential) energy and conservation of momentum, the distance from the water source to 'pump' should be insignificant ... in a perfect or extremely well designed situation.
However, using smaller diameter piping and long runs of that piping will only 'bleed off' the available energy via FRICTION; the developed friction will mathematically reduce the 'static height' and 'mass flow' of the in-feed water !!!!!!!!!!
Secondly and still observing the same laws of physics, the use of two check valves on the drive pipe section will/can increase the 'time interval' of the impact (hydraulic shock) which results in LESS impact (hydraulic shock); hence LESS energy transfer !! The longer the time duration of impact, the less energy is transferred!!!! Use a BIGGER valve, not two valves on the drive piping ..... and increase the diameter of the drive pipe to lessen frictional losses of the input water. In hydraulic systems - larger diameter, the least amount of 'transitional' piping, smooth internal pipe surfaces, & long radius elbows, etc. is always 'best' when optimizing 'performance'. One must usually economically 'balance' the extra cost vs. system efficiency --- test (breadboard experiment) to arrive at 'optimum'.
FWIW - there are formulas to calculate such frictional losses vs. flow rate and developed pressures in piping, on the internet .... such as www.engineeringtoolbox.com , etc. etc. Transitions of internal diameters (so-called 'adapter' fittings), short-radius ('close' or 90°) elbows, poorly designed (check and throttle) valves will greatly contribute to additive frictional values ... for less flow and less static/dynamic head pressure when the system is operating. What youre looking to do is to keep your flow in the drive pipe 'laminar' (non-turbulent) to keep the friction loss to an absolute minimum.
One can make their own l-o-n-g radius elbows in plastic pipe by filling with sand and applying heat ... and then bending to the desired 'long transition' shape. Short 90° elbows and non-smooth changes in the internal diameter of piping are the prime 'robbers' of energy in any piping system; the long radiused and 'smooth' ('bell mouthed') transition of diameters cause less 'turbulence' of the liquid flow.
FWIW2 - The use of poppit type check valves usually have greater 'impact' ('faster' impact time); hence, should increase the impact & momentum of the energy transfer, .... which is what 'drives' the system.
hope this helps ;-)
RichH yep use drainage fittings not pressure, so pop is moe Betta den swing, thanks it's in the original commercial wons fer good reason
this is very similar to a mormon pump,except all the wasted water interesting though
Better @1" for volume and raise the one closest to the pressure chamber to a height just above the second one that is close to the drive pipe for a pressure kick 😉
What would happen with a single waste water valve raised on a section of pipe? 6" example
stopped video at 1:03 and have not read comments yet... im gonna guess here that the 2 check valves drain bucket faster IF they work at all, but there will be less water out the end of pump. maybe more pressure though...
What if you set up two ram pumps pumping side by side pumping to one discharge. Two separate inlets. Just a thought.
I actually have a video on that. It works well.
Is it in the pressure or is it the FLOW RATE ???
What about a one way valve on your supply head to keep the pressure of the closing exhaust valves from traveling to your supply?? Would putting the one way valve closer or further from your pump increase the efficiency?
Actually installing a 1way valve in the drive pipe will stop the pump. The pressure wave needs to travel the full distance back to the source to build momentum.
Do you have any suggestions to increase out put height
Try with a smaller check valve to see the lift pressure go up a lot ???
My worries are how can you reuse the excess water,when there's no abundant water in our place,if can be coupled to a drum pump?how??
Ok how about 2 of those setups from a T'd off main line then T it off to the connector.
i think your tests should be performed on the creek or river for better results the supply you provide is not enough also the pressure is changing.
Curious as to how 2 1/4" waste valves would work?
What about having another one way valve in the direction of flow before the waste valve? Could send the shockwave to the pressure tank rather than back up the supply line.
I have heard of people doing that. I have that test written down. For the ram pump Series this spring
Hi brother...do you see these in India as well
I have seen a number of videos showing operation in India.
you should try a tesla valve in the drive pipe instead of 2 waste valves. this restricts the puls back in the drive pipe leaving more energy to create pressure
A Tesla valve is designed to constantly allow flow in One Direction. It doesn't have that sudden snap to create the water hammer. I don't think it would work.
@@LandtoHouse it is not to replace the existing valves but to reduce the shockwave travel back in to the feed line so this sock wil only move forward
Ah ok. Yes I have that test on the list.