Inspecting a Lathe Before A Purchase Without Running It!
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- Опубліковано 12 кві 2021
- Here, I go over a Harrison M300 13x40 Metal lathe to talk about some of this issues I looked at before I purchased this lathe. I drove 10 hours round trip to pick this up so getting good information up front is a key part of taking the investment to buy a machine. I talk about things to look for and things to be aware of. There are many things to look at when buying a lathe like this. The main goal is that you want to buy the best machine you can for the least amount of money.
This lathe turned out to be a very good deal and was well worth the trip. This will be my new main lathe for my gunsmith shop. It was sent out for a partial rebuild after this video was made.
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Super useful video as right now I'm cataloguing a machine shop for someone of mine and one of the lathes he bought as part of this job lot was an M300. So while I've checked it over (its one of 3 lathes and 2 mills and about a van load of tooling and other stuff) it was really helpful to see through 'second pair of eyes'. Great video
I ran a Harrison M-300 for 13 years at GTE Sylvania. Great mid-size lathe. It has a great spindle reverse.
I have a south bend heavy 10 also.
I got a how to repair book for it. I liked what it said about paint, Who cares it does not make a lathe work any better. A well used machine looks like it can do the job and will do it without complaint.
This is a great video for someone like me as a novice ! Thanks u very much for simplifying
Hello,
Very good advice for anyone wishing to buy a lathe... thanks for sharing...
Take care.
Paul,,
Most all the older lathes have a lot of wear in the ways right where the cross slide spends most of its time, close the the chuck. Aside from all other functions be sure to bring a test bar and a mag based dial indicator.
Sellers always say "look at the ways" they look good. Then when I cue it all up and say to the seller look at all that wear on those beautiful ways. Seller, OH SHIT... Then I walk the hell away.
Made the HUGE mistake of buying as large lathe that worked but had twelve thousands wear on the ways but they looked perfect, as in you could NOT detect ANY ware by looking at the ways.
Buy a 30 to 50mm or the corresponding bar in inches that is hardened bar designed for linear bearings at least 24" long and of course have some kind of indicator on a mag base.
Set it up in the chuck and get the bar spinning as true as possible out on the end, spin it by hand. Then with the dial indicator run it on center of the bar from the chuck all the way out to the end of the bar, do not turn the chuck, just put the indicator on top of the bar.
Note the reading every inche. If you have 20 inches of bar sticking out the chuck and you can only get it to run lets say 20 thousandths at the end and 5 thousandths at the chuck then that is fifteen thousandths over 20 inches.
So at 10 inches out you should have seven and 1/2 thousandths and so on. Bring a felt tipped marker and mark out the inches and mark every inch. Then run the dial indicator from the chuck out to the end of the bar and have your indicator zero'd out at the chuck and at every inch mark what the dial indicator reading is down on the bar.
On my 14" enco lathe at around 10 inches out, right where the cross slide spend most of its time, it was a big lathe with a big cross slide, there was 12 thousandths difference. That means even though those ways looked beautiful that lathe was junk and was NEVER going to make a decent part.
Think of it like this, you have a shaft to turn and so you start turning it. This is a shaft you need to press a bearing onto so you go for it using the auto feed and your pretty happy with the surface finish etc, so next you take it over to the hydraulic press and try pressing your bearing on the shaft but it only goes so far then locks up? What the heck? So you take out your trusty micrometer and HOLY SHIT you got 2 to 4 thousandths variation in the diameter of that shaft. WTF? Well you bought a lathe that was never going to do what a lathe it supposed to do, make precision parts.
That lathe might be ok at facing or doing some things but your never going to be able to do precision work with it, unless, you spend many thousands of bucks having the ways ground.
So did you buy a large piece of scrap iron in the shape of a lathe? Did it look and act like a lathe but fail to do it's job and make parts to the level of precision you needed?
Well at least I got my 14" enco for cheap so I was able to sell it for about what I had into it. What a shame.
I held back on this comment and watched the entire video waiting for the precision machine shed dude to show how to check bed ways wear, I thought for sure he would do that as those bed ways are the key to the entire machine being useful or, well, not being able to do it's job.
Well this was never shown to you??? I guess maybe the precision machine shed guy ether don't know or it does not matter to him?
BED WAY WEAR SHOULD BE THE NUMBER ONE THING YOU CHECK.
Why? Because it is the key, if the bed ways are bad nothing else matters and you should "WALK AWAY" unless you are looking for a parts lathe or you are buying it for scrap value. Because it is scrap if the ways are bad.
Bunch of you are probably scratching your head... So I will probably need to make a video on how to do this and where to get the bar etc.
My lathes all have or had this issue except for the Hardinge chucker I just bought. I can't make a shaft that takes bearing or cut a bore to take a bearing with my 12" craftsman lathe. The Bering bore will be larger on one end then the other end even on a 1/2 deep bore, when I press in the bearing it will be tight on one end and loose on the other because of bed wear and the effect it has on precision.
Bad news for most of you is most of the older lathes out there on the market have this problem so if you don't want to end up with a lathe that is not capable of doing what a lathe is supposed to do you better figure out how to check bed wear like I described.
People will say fun things to you like well, it will still "be OK for facing", or, I don't care how much those ways are worn I'm not dropping my price. I tell the seller this, you lathe is junk unless it is being sold for parts. good by, have a nice da,y good luck selling your big hunk of cast iron scrap, as, many buyers do not know how to do what I just did, figure out this lathe is junk because it is no longer capable of doing what it was designed for, making precision parts.
Don't try and negotiate the price you are going to pay, as, no price, even free justifies you buying something that can no longer do "what you are buying it to do"
So your new chunk of scrap in the shape of a lathe was a great deal because you got it for a low price? No it was not because it is not worth your time and trouble no matter what, if? it can no longer do its job.
When you find a lot of bed wear on a lathe, no mater how the rest of it looks WALK AWAY, or, of you like to step in fresh shit, negotiate a lower price and buy it. Then enjoy how it does not do what you bought it for.
Might get some argument from some people on this even the precision machine shed guy but you should stop and think it over...
FACT, most old lathes are junk being passed from one hapless victim to another for far far too high a price. So look in the mirror and decide if you want to be the next sucker in line or not?
have you ever bought a car without hearing it run? Cars are to drive around in right? Well, if you expect that car you are about to buy to run and drive, are you going to buy it without hearing it run and taking a test drive? Don't reply you bought a parts car and did not need to hear it run, this is not about that.
This is about how you might be ready to drop 3 to 5 thousand bucks on a lathe that simply will no longer do its job. You expected it to run but it will not run right and make good parts.
Why do you think machinery dealers will not do this test on used lathes they have for sale? It is because they want to see how stupid you are because if they have any experience at all, and they do, they will be looking for that guy without the experience to know if he is about to buy a lump of scrap in the shape of a lathe or if he walks in with a bit steel bar with a fine ground finish and a dial indicator and simply performs the needed test to know what he is buying, a usable precision machine or lump of scrap. Now which buyer will you be?
Why did I write all this? If I save even one of you from buying a lathe you should not have bought then it was worth it. I made the "big" mistake because I did not know what the heck I was doing, I related to you how "not" to make the same mistake I did.
This is excellent thank you, Sir, I will have to check out some YT videos to see what you are talking about before I view this lathe in a few days. . Thank you again for your concern.
Thank you. This post makes me feel better about waiting 8 months for shipping on a brand new lathe.
My old 16x75 that I am moving out had 0.012 or so wear - I made plenty of stuff with precision around 0.0001. No issues. My "new" lathe has around 0.01 wear - or I am guessing that much using my fingernails. But all gears work and power feeds work etc. so its an upgrade from my old machine that had wear and broken gears.
Sure less wear on the ways is better than more wear. But more wear simply forces you to think more if you need more precision. There is calculator online for wear vs. part made and distance. For 2" bar with 0.01 wear on the ways the wear is a non issue. I.e. for any thicker metal piece you do not need to worry at all. Problems starts with slender things, such as 1/2in - now you have a problem and may have to either twist your lathe or adjust the tailstock. However, usually your steady / follow rest setup will be more of a problem than wear.
When I was a beginner I could not sleep b/c my lathe has so much wear and I had junk. Now I do not worry too much. Sure its better to have almost none - but here are 100s of other things that can go wrong before the bed wear is the main problem.
@@tomk3732 Sure you can still make some things with vary high precision as long as it is possible for you to compensate. But its not always possible. I don't want to worry about it any more because I made to many bores for bearings that were tight on one end and lose on the other. I could not figure out how I was screwing up cutting those bores until I measured the bed ways. Then it was obvious/
@@robert5 This would only be a problem if bearings were very small and they were separated by a considerable distance - which would make the boring bar very long, thin and flimsy. I strongly suspect - like 99% that the bed wear was not the issue in this case. A very worn out lathe is what I used for precision taper cutting for back plates. No issues at all.
Depending on setup I would take a look at boring bar stiffness as well as lathe headstock alignment.
When working close to the chuck the wear on the lathe over short distance - even a junk lathe - will not differ much - you are in the worn spot - maybe 0.002. On say bearing seats of 2" size separated by say 2" space (say you making a live center) the difference may be 1 or 2 microns from lathe wear. This is well beyond the claimed accuracy of the lathe.
I inherited one of these from my dad who bought it in the early 70's. Great lathe!
Nice machine to inherit!
Thanks for making this!
This machine looks like a good machine!
Picking up a Harrison 12" Saturday. Your video was a big help thank you!
No problem.
Thank you very much for this video, I am off to pick up a Colchester student master in a few days that I purchased off eBay and will be going through all these checks.
Good information!
Thank You you are a True Gent Helping us all out one of the best on UA-cam
I appreciate that!
Solid advice, nice lathe
Thanks for the info, I have a DoAll which is essentially the same unit.
Good tips Thanks
How good of a deal
very good advice
Really sound advice on evaluating lathes. Love those Harrisons and Colchesters; the Brits made some really well-engineered machines. Guessing $2K - $2.5K?
This an awesome site! Thanks so much for what you do! Price on the Harrison?
Thanks i have been looking for a while ,nice to know what a machine may cost
Hey Spitfire! Good video. Is there any brand of taps and dies that are considered top end by gunsmiths? Stay healthy!
First time viewer, Enjoyed it
Awesome, thank you!
Your advice was very helpful. I wish I had viewed a video like this one when I bought my 13" South Bend. I got screwed over big time. Sad thing about it was the lathe had power running to it. If I had only changed the speed of the spindle it would have crashed within 30 seconds. Cost me dearly in the long run. I would love to have a gear head the same size you are showing.
That's a bummer. Always sucks to learn the hard way. Hopefully you were able to salvage something from it.
Parts availability is a consideration
I have a m300 as well with a taper attachment
good video
Great video! You are the one that sold me on a SB heavy 10. I bought one that was a turd so I sold it. I found a really tight one and paid $475 with lots of tooling, 3 jaw, 4 jaw, full set of 5c collets by 64ths, dead centers for head and tailstock, drive plate, dogs of all sizes, 3 tail stock chucks (2 jacobs and albrecht), live center, spare set of spindle bearings, about 20 pot chucks, bunch of MT2 taper shank drills (yeah, pretty much stole it). Only because I was in right place, right time and knew what I was looking for thanks to you. Now... how much did ya pay for that beauty?
Sounds like a deal of the century. I'll let you know if the next video.
@@precisionmachineshed I had to work for it (lathe had to come apart to get her out of the basement in a tight spot in NYC). Looking forward to hear of how you made out!
Looks in good shape!
Will be in even better shape in another month or so!
I'm guessing since he never got it running you didn't pay more than 1200.00. Nice advice I'm in the look out for a bigger lathe.
Very informative. Thanks. Wanna be machinist
I'm looking for a milling machine
looks like a great machine, how much did you pay?
$1k for the machine $5K to have to reground and brought back into spec by the machine rebuilder.
I'd imagine $1500 as a good deal with minimal tooling?
Hopefully not insulting, that's just my honest guess.
I've never bought or owned a machine I'm just speculating now but this video is helpful... I know how to run one and could have pointed out some of the wear points but you showed me a couple more 👌
Great advice, thanks. I'm looking forward to your follow-up vids that you mentioned. I couldn't understand the name of that weird dial above the threading dial, can anyone tell me what that is?
Trav-A-Dial. I posted a YT link, but I guess that's a no-no...
@@dahut3614 oh wow, it sounds obvious to me now. Thanks!
@@dahut3614 Yeah what's up with YT getting pissy with links? WTF?
@@jagboy69 I think there's a setting where the content creators can block them or block them for review. I imagine it could get out of hand with all the spam bots.
Been watching your videos for a few years now as I too became infatuated with Southbends. I see you too have graduated to the virtues of other lathes. Do you mind me asking what you paid for this one? Thank you for your insight.
I still have a 10L that I use, but mostly use this one now. I paid $1k for the machine and $5k to have it rebuilt then I repainted it.
Great machine, I have a Harrison clone, an Acra Turn. Did yours come with all of the collet closer or just that attachment that screws on the end of the spindle? The reason I’m asking, is because mine came with the lever collet closer, but missing that round attachment. Would you be interested in selling that or can you send a detailed pic so I can make it. I can’t seem to find one anywhere. P.S., what did you pay? Thanks, JB San Diego.
Would you be interested in selling your closer? I need one. The part should be fairly easy to make. I would need to get measurements off it, but I think most of the Royal 5C closers I've had all take the same size flange that bolts to the spindle.
Thanks for the reply. I wouldn’t want to sell my closer, but I don’t think it’s a Royal, as there is no brand name or logo on it. By the way, parts are available thru clausing , but pretty pricey. Good luck with the lathe, hope to see you use it in the future. By the way, you promised to tell us what you paid for the lathe, (I paid $600 for my Acra Turn, an exact copy). Thanks again, JB San Diego.
A couple days too late on this one! I picked up a South Bend heavy 10 last week and after I got it home I found three broken back gear teeth, missing screws all over, mangled compound, extremely loose cross slide gib, and rusted in chuck. I could have inspected it better.
That's too bad. Hopefully you don't have a bunch into it. A few parts aren't bad, but lots add up quick.
@@precisionmachineshed Did I mention the tailstock was also missing? I found a housing but no inards beside the screw and hand wheel. It’s got some problems but the ways are shockingly in great shape considering it seems to have been used heavily. I can’t bring myself to part it out so I’m trying to braze the gear and recut it.
Fortunately after I paid for the SB and before picking it up a deal on a Clausing 5900 came up. I paid $500 for it vs $850 for the SB. Other than a few gear bushings and missing tailstock ($200) it’s in excellent shape. I’m really loving this lathe and using it to fix the SB.
I tried starting out with a mini lathe and then I got in the car accident and my girlfriend kept everything and sold everything when I was in the hospital. It sucks when you come home to no tools
Sounds like a crappy deal for sure!
Always enjoy your videos. What is it about this one that put it on your bucket list? Looking forward to more gunsmithing videos. What is a ball park figure one would pay for this type of used lathe?
It is a higher quality lathe than what I have had in the past. It also will do metric without changing a bunch of gears. It is a much nicer machine to operate than all the other lathes I've had and fairly quiet. Just set up nice for gunsmithing. Used these usually go in the $4-5K range US.
@@precisionmachineshed It's been on my bucket list too and Ive just managed to get one. It's so much easier here in the Uk and they were built, literally 15 miles away from my home.
My main reasons for having it on my bucket list was the fact that it's a geared head so it can rip the material from a part at any speed without losing it's torque, the metric / imperial capability and the ease of selecting gears when screw cutting or feeding. It's a great machine and certainly a step up from my Chipmaster that I owned for 26 years. Good video PMS. Thanks.
How much?
WHERE CAN LOOK TO FIND A USED LATHE? I HAVE FOUND VERY LITTLE ON THE INTERNET AND I DON'T LIVE IN AN INDUSTERAL AREA. I COULD USE SOME HELP. I LIVE NEER TULSA OK.
May take some looking and you may have to travel. I haven't seen as much in the last few years as I did 3-4 years ago.
I find it funny how all these machines are exactly the same. I have a 1991 Taiwanese 13x38 supermax and it's almost a dead ringer for your machine. What'd you pay for that thing?? 500? She's a little rough unless you like the color orange. If you need parts for that thing, I can tell you it shares a lot of grizzly g0709 parts. As a side note, if I walk up to buy a machine and it's covered in 10years worth of CAST IRON GRIT, I am outta there!
The import lathes are modeled after these and a few others. Even if any parts did fit, I would never put any of those parts on this machine, quality is night and day and I have had several import lathes.
Nice!
$750?
$1k
only buy new
You can still buy this machine new under the Clausing name, but bare bones it's about $16,000, and it's an "import" machine. I have about $6K into mine after a complete professional rebuild. Which means I have a basically brand new machine and I have $10K in my pocket.
Did you re-grind the ways and reground all other sliding parts? Did you replace all the bearings? Even then it is not as new as I bet you did not replace all gears and lead screw. Essentially I would consider it like new if all wear components were replaced - i.e. casting was reground, all bearings, gears etc. were replaced and it was painted in factory paint. The only component of the old lathe would be the castings and some sheet metal + knobs. Oh and all chucks would need to be replaced as well.
too much of ball shit from begining