I’ve read descriptions of this technique but was unable to fully understand what was being suggested. This brief description cleared the fog. This is excellent. Thank you.
Thank you for demonstrating this so well. I've played piano for 60 years, and I thought that whole "thumb under" thing was like one of the Ten Commandments! Maybe the old dog will be able to learn a new trick or two .
First lesson when I finally went to my teacher. Rotation in scales. It’s never left me years later. Also never get pain or strain in the hands playing for long practices. Relaxed technique is everything. I’m 72 btw started learning as an older adult.
If the piece involves fast repetitive octaves, sometimes w fingers in the middle doing other notes, and you have an 8 in hand span like me, there will always be pain. Always. The pain decreases with increased hand size.
@@ericaeli3807 I can only reach octave in my right hand as I broke my thumb lower joint as a teen on a motorcycle accident. When I started I could barely reach a 7th on fingertips. I was taught to relax the hand slightly in the air as you rotate left or right to the next octave then form the shape just as you touch the keys. The hand gets a fraction to relax between the stretches. It took a lot of practice at first but it saved me that pain like you complained of.
I've been playing for years and never heard of this method. To this day, I still have issues crossing under with certain scales, especially F, where the cross under is different. Thanks for the info, Robert!!
Luckily most humans have a flexible thumb that can effortless move a little under the hand to make scales smooth. Even you were struggling a few times 4:32 + 5:23 to make it smooth your way...
A good tip. But the video can be shortened and concise. The key point is not let the thumb tunnel too deeply under the 2 and 3 fingers by rotating the right hand outward a little. Right?
No tunnel thumb tuck….Rotate hand counter clockwise that puts your thumb right there….move forearm and rotate wrist….Practice C chord l any times and the other scales will fall into place…..Thank you for an excellent instruction.❤
I think the biggest problem in piano teaching is the use of terminology like thumb Tuck etc. After studying Anatomy in med school a lot of stuff made sense. The point he was trying to make is in a thumb tuck when the second finger is playing we have to FLEX the thumb to get it ready to play after finger 3. Flexing is done at the inter-phalangeal and the first meta-carpal joint and this is what causes the tension. When I say flex I'm talking about Anatomical flexion which is trying to touch the base of little finger with tip of thumb WHILE whole thumb is in contact with palm. Thumb is like a windshield wiper wiping the palm. There is another movement where you touch base of little finger with thumb tip but the thumb is NOT in contact with palm surface this is called Opposition. Try both and you'll see flexion is stressful while opposition is easy and tension free. In any case in a classic thumb tuck after playing finger 3 we have to straighten the thumb to play the F. So why even contort the thumb into that initial flexion? Watch the video at quarter speed (0.25×) and you will notice that his thumb remains straight (I.e he 8s using opposition rather than flexion) . That is the most efficient technique. Many of us hit upon the efficient method by chance specially when playing fast. Some unlucky ones get stuck with the inefficient method and end up with injuries in the long run. Also do not be judgemental about the hand being too low as playing the piano is adynamic process and if you watch videos of famous pianists all of them will have the hand low at some point of the other. Horowitz would be low and Gould would be under the piano. 😂
My biggest problem not when change 3rd with 1st finger, but when change 4th with 1st. Mostly difficult when movement from right to left keys direction. Thank you.
I am not a Taubman expert nor trainee, though I have had some exposure to it through friends and colleagues who know about it. Definitely there is some overlap but I can't make any representation about how well aligned my advice is with theirs. Certainly my advice is informed by what my Taubman-trained friends and colleagues have shared with me, though.
I don't think the thumb can really be in contact with the F before the third finger has lifted at least most of the way from the E. But yes, I think your comment is basically aligned with the idea I'm trying to get across.
Hmm, not at all convinced by this technique. Especially as it seems where he points at the "small muscles" at 1:56 aren't where the finger muscles are actually located. Will using arm muscles or all-wrist rotations really scale with speed? Still hands, loose wrists, let the nimble fingers do the work ... be cautious if anyone tells you otherwise. Please think carefully viewers...
Take a look at Professor Claudio Saavedra''s 11-part animated series on Chopin Method where the use of the thumb is analyzed in exhaustive detail. Probably yuour own physiology is the root of your desire to advocate a different use of thumb. You mentioned the pain or discomfort you experienced. That's telling. For myself, I learned all 12 keys of major, and all minor scales using thumb under with no difficulty. You might mention differences in hand physiology as culprit in various fingerings diverging from so-called "common practice." Also mention the 129 page Ph.D. dissertation on Dragos Tanasescu's Treaties on Pianistic Technique, aka, controversies in fingering practices.
Wrist seems a bit low still and not replicating the original hand dangle you started with. Also move the elbow slightly outward from body to position the thumb on the fourth up Note when playing a scale. That occurs quite naturally with the slight elbow out movement. Courtesy Taubman technique which has some good stuff if you’re injured, but overall was way too perfectionistic, top down teaching, and inflexible for me, after three months of lessons.
While I agree things do change and get smoothed out at higher tempos, I don't think that means there's only one way that scales can be played at higher tempos. Even when I play fast, I find that focusing my mind on doing it in a particular way (as to hand position, wrist position, movements using rotation, etc.) definitely has an effect on my accuracy and on how quickly I get fatigued. Additionally, video shows that my hand truly moves differently at high tempos according to how I am thinking about its movements, even when I'm playing the same notes of the same scale at the same tempo. So I can understand why you believe what you're saying, but all the evidence says you're mistaken.
@@audiomystic I hear you that it strikes you as odd for me to espouse this approach when I still make flubs in my video about it, but I didn't intend to create the impression that using this sort of technique absolves us of the need to practice. If you find the easy method for eliminating all mistakes without practicing I would love to watch your UA-cam video about it. Until then I think I will just persist in trying to use disciplined practice along with the best techniques I know in hope of eliminating my flubs. And I will continue working to accept that in spite of it all, I will still sometimes make mistakes.
@@robertkennedymusic as a student and a teacher of various disciplines, I tend to notice that I can’t teach something until I’m proficient in it. Because until then I haven’t encoded the qualities of the skill. You’re welcome to share what you know at this point, I just expect you will learn more and perhaps teach more accurately, especially the meta-level when you have more control of this approach. Personally, I’m frustrated how many clashing views about piano technique there are. I find in the end it’s important to prioritize a relaxed feeling in the hand as much as possible. Use the arm and body to avoid overuse of fingers. Everything else, appears secondary in the ‘skill tree’ of qualities.
Yup, this video was to share a suggestion with my piano-beginner cousin and to share a little glimpse into my own journey. Definitely not to exaggerate my level of authority beyond what it really is. And then this video went accidentally slightly viral so now a lot of folks are seeing it and commenting just to try to troll the piano lesson dude, but I am not trying to be the piano lesson dude. I'm happy if my video helps somebody and though you might disagree, I'm confident it won't be harmful. I absolutely care what other people think of my playing and that care is one reason I constantly work at trying to improve, but I would rather my playing be judged from my performances and recordings of music than by this video. In the end, though, you decide. Just realize that nothing more than an internet accident is responsible for the conversation we're having right now. It's completely unclear what you're saying I should do or understand differently. You found a Phillips screwdriver lying on the ground for free, and you're complaining that it's no good with your slotted-head screws. Make your own screwdriver if the one you found doesn't do what you need. Be the video you want to see on the internet.
@@robertkennedymusic I feel like the concept of rotation at the wrist breaks down and higher tempos and descending as well. I’ve just gotten a lot of Taubman approach videos recommended lately and I’m not convinced this particular aspect is entirely feasible.
This is such a skimpy video... nothing beyond one octave, not even showing the larger transition between the B and the upper C. The piano has more than one octave.
True. It was a quick response to a specific issue that came up, definitely not a complete treatment of the subject. A great deal of additional detail is out there and all you have to do is search for it.
Too many "problems" that don't exist attributed to thumb-under technique. By the time the thumb plays (F) the whole arm has moved so that it is played just as smoothly and easily as the initial (C). That is all that is happening here... nothing "new."
I know how you feel. I had also been playing a long time when I started getting introduced to the idea that forearm rotation is the most fundamental playing motion and that playing a note with the thumb crossed under the palm isn't necessarily a good idea. And no, I definitely didn't make it up. I first got introduced to these notions by a friend who is an excellent player and teacher who did pretty extensive training in the Taubman approach with Edna Golandsky.
I’ve read descriptions of this technique but was unable to fully understand what was being suggested. This brief description cleared the fog. This is excellent. Thank you.
I like the notion of crossing over as opposed to crossing under. That actually helped me physically by just using different language for this action.
Thank you for demonstrating this so well. I've played piano for 60 years, and I thought that whole "thumb under" thing was like one of the Ten Commandments! Maybe the old dog will be able to learn a new trick or two .
I've never liked doing the thumb tuck as I find it awkward. And I agree that it causes tension in the hand. I find your video very helpful, thank you.
thats a good scale technique- blazing fast. i geek on ergonomics for piano- chords, scale, phrasing, and dynamics. efficiency right here!
Great tip! I noticed it sped up my playing right away. Thank you for sharing.
First lesson when I finally went to my teacher. Rotation in scales. It’s never left me years later. Also never get pain or strain in the hands playing for long practices. Relaxed technique is everything. I’m 72 btw started learning as an older adult.
If the piece involves fast repetitive octaves, sometimes w fingers in the middle doing other notes, and you have an 8 in hand span like me, there will always be pain. Always. The pain decreases with increased hand size.
@@ericaeli3807Study Abby Whiteside and maybe add in Moshe Feldenkrais to to use your wrist, arm and body to help you play piano without pain.
@@ericaeli3807 I can only reach octave in my right hand as I broke my thumb lower joint as a teen on a motorcycle accident. When I started I could barely reach a 7th on fingertips. I was taught to relax the hand slightly in the air as you rotate left or right to the next octave then form the shape just as you touch the keys. The hand gets a fraction to relax between the stretches. It took a lot of practice at first but it saved me that pain like you complained of.
@@John-boythanks. No such time for Erlkonig! Even w successive fast octaves but not the SAME octave it’s better than the same octave.
I've been playing for years and never heard of this method. To this day, I still have issues crossing under with certain scales, especially F, where the cross under is different. Thanks for the info, Robert!!
Luckily most humans have a flexible thumb that can effortless move a little under the hand to make scales smooth. Even you were struggling a few times 4:32 + 5:23 to make it smooth your way...
I saw someone doing that fingering technique and I just couldn’t figure it out. Thank you for this!!
Was just practicing the c scale yesterday the wrong way then. I'm glad you posted this, and I saw it.
That's the problem with lurning on your own. Nobody there to smack you with a stick when you're doing it wrong.
The "train under the tunnel" method, in my opinion, is better for going fast. The wrist rotation method at fast speeds is too cumbersome.
What’s that? Could you give a recommend for a video or something? It would be appreciated.
A good tip. But the video can be shortened and concise. The key point is not let the thumb tunnel too deeply under the 2 and 3 fingers by rotating the right hand outward a little. Right?
No tunnel thumb tuck….Rotate hand counter clockwise that puts your thumb right there….move forearm and rotate wrist….Practice C chord l any times and the other scales will fall into place…..Thank you for an excellent instruction.❤
Great. Can you show the left hand too please?
See Dorothy Taubman/Edna Golandsky
I think the biggest problem in piano teaching is the use of terminology like thumb Tuck etc. After studying Anatomy in med school a lot of stuff made sense.
The point he was trying to make is in a thumb tuck when the second finger is playing we have to FLEX the thumb to get it ready to play after finger 3. Flexing is done at the inter-phalangeal and the first meta-carpal joint and this is what causes the tension.
When I say flex I'm talking about Anatomical flexion which is trying to touch the base of little finger with tip of thumb WHILE whole thumb is in contact with palm. Thumb is like a windshield wiper wiping the palm.
There is another movement where you touch base of little finger with thumb tip but the thumb is NOT in contact with palm surface this is called Opposition. Try both and you'll see flexion is stressful while opposition is easy and tension free.
In any case in a classic thumb tuck after playing finger 3 we have to straighten the thumb to play the F. So why even contort the thumb into that initial flexion?
Watch the video at quarter speed (0.25×) and you will notice that his thumb remains straight (I.e he 8s using opposition rather than flexion) . That is the most efficient technique.
Many of us hit upon the efficient method by chance specially when playing fast. Some unlucky ones get stuck with the inefficient method and end up with injuries in the long run.
Also do not be judgemental about the hand being too low as playing the piano is adynamic process and if you watch videos of famous pianists all of them will have the hand low at some point of the other. Horowitz would be low and Gould would be under the piano. 😂
I still think raccoons are better suited to play the piano than we.
You can tell when they're plotting world domination when they do the hand pyramid thing.
This was good but I would like to see the 4 cross as well as the 3 cross (for multiple scales). The 3 isn’t that hard; the 4 is harder.
My biggest problem not when change 3rd with 1st finger, but when change 4th with 1st.
Mostly difficult when movement from right to left keys direction. Thank you.
It is hard for you because it is a naturally uncommon and awkward movement, but with repetition (practice) you can achieve it
This is the Taubman technique or close to it.
I am not a Taubman expert nor trainee, though I have had some exposure to it through friends and colleagues who know about it. Definitely there is some overlap but I can't make any representation about how well aligned my advice is with theirs. Certainly my advice is informed by what my Taubman-trained friends and colleagues have shared with me, though.
THANK YOU!!!
Thank you
It seems like don’t tuck thumb under as much as move laterally?
Yes, that's the idea.
Very lucid !
Just because it's using muscles of the hand doesn't mean it's problematic.
Let Frances Clark explain to you what you're doing to cause the pain and how to correct it.
She seems to be unavailable. Where can I learn more?
So you position the thumb
On the F and remove your third finger so the thumb can hit the F
I don't think the thumb can really be in contact with the F before the third finger has lifted at least most of the way from the E. But yes, I think your comment is basically aligned with the idea I'm trying to get across.
I'm sure you know a lot more than I do about this, so why is your right wrist so low?
Good question and I'm not sure I have a good answer. I suspect I'm overreacting to a past tendency to have my right wrist too high.
2:40 and 4:00
Teach us more pls 🎉
Unfortunately your camera is not seated up right
Hmm, not at all convinced by this technique. Especially as it seems where he points at the "small muscles" at 1:56 aren't where the finger muscles are actually located. Will using arm muscles or all-wrist rotations really scale with speed? Still hands, loose wrists, let the nimble fingers do the work ... be cautious if anyone tells you otherwise. Please think carefully viewers...
a super slow motion would be helpfully this demonstration(performance) is to fast to see the movements in details
Take a look at Professor Claudio Saavedra''s 11-part animated series on Chopin Method where the use of the thumb is analyzed in exhaustive detail. Probably yuour own physiology is the root of your desire to advocate a different use of thumb. You mentioned the pain or discomfort you experienced. That's telling. For myself, I learned all 12 keys of major, and all minor scales using thumb under with no difficulty. You might mention differences in hand physiology as culprit in various fingerings diverging from so-called "common practice." Also mention the 129 page Ph.D. dissertation on Dragos Tanasescu's Treaties on Pianistic Technique, aka, controversies in fingering practices.
Wrist seems a bit low still and not replicating the original hand dangle you started with. Also move the elbow slightly outward from body to position the thumb on the fourth up
Note when playing a scale. That occurs quite naturally with the slight elbow out movement. Courtesy Taubman technique which has some good stuff if you’re injured, but overall was way too perfectionistic, top down teaching, and inflexible for me, after three months of lessons.
once the scale is being played in sixteenths at around 120 beats per minute, none of these techniques happen. the hand will do what it has to do.
While I agree things do change and get smoothed out at higher tempos, I don't think that means there's only one way that scales can be played at higher tempos. Even when I play fast, I find that focusing my mind on doing it in a particular way (as to hand position, wrist position, movements using rotation, etc.) definitely has an effect on my accuracy and on how quickly I get fatigued. Additionally, video shows that my hand truly moves differently at high tempos according to how I am thinking about its movements, even when I'm playing the same notes of the same scale at the same tempo. So I can understand why you believe what you're saying, but all the evidence says you're mistaken.
Imagine trying to show people how to play the scale while you make a mess of it.
I don't really need to imagine, do I?
Is the C major scale is a musical composition?
I there’s a lot of dogma here… I’m not sold on this.
You flubbed notes on the scale at 4:50 multiple times in a row. That’s odd when also saying this is a very efficient approach.
@@audiomystic I hear you that it strikes you as odd for me to espouse this approach when I still make flubs in my video about it, but I didn't intend to create the impression that using this sort of technique absolves us of the need to practice. If you find the easy method for eliminating all mistakes without practicing I would love to watch your UA-cam video about it.
Until then I think I will just persist in trying to use disciplined practice along with the best techniques I know in hope of eliminating my flubs. And I will continue working to accept that in spite of it all, I will still sometimes make mistakes.
@@robertkennedymusic as a student and a teacher of various disciplines, I tend to notice that I can’t teach something until I’m proficient in it. Because until then I haven’t encoded the qualities of the skill.
You’re welcome to share what you know at this point, I just expect you will learn more and perhaps teach more accurately, especially the meta-level when you have more control of this approach.
Personally, I’m frustrated how many clashing views about piano technique there are. I find in the end it’s important to prioritize a relaxed feeling in the hand as much as possible. Use the arm and body to avoid overuse of fingers. Everything else, appears secondary in the ‘skill tree’ of qualities.
Yup, this video was to share a suggestion with my piano-beginner cousin and to share a little glimpse into my own journey. Definitely not to exaggerate my level of authority beyond what it really is.
And then this video went accidentally slightly viral so now a lot of folks are seeing it and commenting just to try to troll the piano lesson dude, but I am not trying to be the piano lesson dude. I'm happy if my video helps somebody and though you might disagree, I'm confident it won't be harmful.
I absolutely care what other people think of my playing and that care is one reason I constantly work at trying to improve, but I would rather my playing be judged from my performances and recordings of music than by this video. In the end, though, you decide. Just realize that nothing more than an internet accident is responsible for the conversation we're having right now. It's completely unclear what you're saying I should do or understand differently.
You found a Phillips screwdriver lying on the ground for free, and you're complaining that it's no good with your slotted-head screws. Make your own screwdriver if the one you found doesn't do what you need. Be the video you want to see on the internet.
@@robertkennedymusic I feel like the concept of rotation at the wrist breaks down and higher tempos and descending as well. I’ve just gotten a lot of Taubman approach videos recommended lately and I’m not convinced this particular aspect is entirely feasible.
This guy can’t even play a c scale. Rhythm is bad and he’s accenting notes that should be accented. Go somewhere else for advice haha
It’s TOTALLY WRONG !!! Noooooo … do not follow these advices …
Why is that?
I have a forearm injury right now and I'm trying to rework my technique.
This is such a skimpy video... nothing beyond one octave, not even showing the larger transition between the B and the upper C. The piano has more than one octave.
True. It was a quick response to a specific issue that came up, definitely not a complete treatment of the subject. A great deal of additional detail is out there and all you have to do is search for it.
Too many "problems" that don't exist attributed to thumb-under technique. By the time the thumb plays (F) the whole arm has moved so that it is played just as smoothly and easily as the initial (C). That is all that is happening here... nothing "new."
It was pretty messy, not even clean within one octave
😢
Is this a 'new' thing? Did you make it up, Have all piano teachers since Mozart been wrong? WTF is going on? lol
I know how you feel. I had also been playing a long time when I started getting introduced to the idea that forearm rotation is the most fundamental playing motion and that playing a note with the thumb crossed under the palm isn't necessarily a good idea.
And no, I definitely didn't make it up. I first got introduced to these notions by a friend who is an excellent player and teacher who did pretty extensive training in the Taubman approach with Edna Golandsky.