@A. G. Not necessarily. My parents were older. My dad was in WWII. Everybody went to church. Southern Baptist revivals are a week long preaching of how your going to be in hell if you don’t repent. I get it though, I’ve been an atheist for about 10 years, and sometimes it’s still in the back of my mind. 🔥🔥🔥
Holy shit there's a dad that cared enough to actually look. Good for them, I didn't think this happened. More parents should try to understand their kids this way, even if they continue disagree. Heart warming story, I can't express how happy I am for the son especially to have such a relationship with his father.
That's what I thought even though he probably new matt would show his reasoning to be floud. He still called in.. I enjoyed this episode an no.. IV PUT YOU ON HOLD IV NOT HUNG UP. 😁
@Hillary's emails to Lorne at least Tim is trying, and talking to his kids to understand. Trust me, when it comes to level of ignorance Tim is a saint compared to some other theist.
He for all the stuff he tells them and buys, listens to his children. That makes him a decent parent in my eyes But tim should really try to let his kids be whatever they want to be unless its really harmul. Even if i believe in that god i dont think he would seperate loving families after death. Through i respect him be willing to listen.
@@jamtaco2667 the sally ann test isnt relevant to this discussion? it doesnt comment on when a child can develop their 'own' memory, just that they need to have that ability to pass the test. and if they do pass, the results dont tell you anything about if their early memories are false or not. semantic/episodic memory is also a different discussion. there are loads of studies providing information pointing towards children developing and recalling memories as early as 18 months...i could go look and provide links or you could cut out the middle man and just google it.
@@Helios601 Your whole argument is an Argument from Ignorance. It's a logical fallacy and you should look it up. Just because we don't know something (like your example, "We see . 0035 of the entire electromagnetic spectrum.") doesn't mean inserting your god of choice is a valid explanation. You're just explaining something with something else that hasn't been explained. Something being possible and something being probably are very often two different things.
@@Helios601 Oh boy, somebody doesn't know anything about quantum entanglement. Let me explain: Sometimes, when particles are created in pairs, one will have a special relation to another. Imagine you have a machine that outputs two pennies, one heads and the other tails, at random. If you keep both hidden, and then try to guess the state of one, it's a fifty-fifty chance, as it could be either heads or tails. However, if you check on one of them, you now automatically know the state of the other, because if it is heads, then the other has to be tails, and vice versa. In quantum physics, this also arises. Take a matter-antimatter annihilation. Two particles collide, an electron and a positron (antielectron), and they annihilate completely, leaving behind only 2 photons. Due to the conservation of momentum, the photons HAVE to have equal and opposite momentum, so if you measure one you automatically know the position of the other. All this and plenty more can be found on various places on the internet. If I am not rendered braindead by this, then why would the top physicist minds be? Also, you try to connect two totally unrelated things, quantum entanglement being used to transmit information and a god.
@@coolguy284_2 coolguy is first guy to solve the quantum entanglement puzzle. You got the universe all figured out. Matt is the guy who tried to explain away plant pyschadelics as being nothing more than hallucinations a person is observing. The guy is a fool. A fool who who makes such sweeping statements whilst knowing less than nothing about certain subjects he's past comment on, is indeed a fool. It's all ego based shit; where your own zeal blinds you to the truth. Human folly, ignorance and allergic reaction to truth will be the extinction of our species. And that's from both sides.
My parents literally told me that there is absolutely nothing that would convince them that they are wrong (EVEN evidence against creation etc) and that they would not watch any videos or read books that are "against" Christianity (to prevent their minds from being polluted). Its a crazy mindset to work with and I just turned 20 so they dont take me seriously at all, atleast not yet. But when I see that there are parents out there who looks outside their walls just because their children asked them to is amazing. Thank you Tim! You are the best! Your child is lucky to have you.
Religious indoctrination teaches people to just believe and that not believing is a sin, and even worse yet, just not believing is the only unforgivable sin. And even worse yet, the punishment is eternal hell. They are just trying to be good people honestly. They are most of all just trying to deal with the fear of hell, so I wouldn’t judge them for that, honestly you wouldn’t judge a person for being afraid of falling while walking a tight rope on top of two skyscrapers.
If you're an evangelical Christian, then you live in a land of denial. I was raised evangelical and some of the conversations ive had with my parents make me want to bash my head against the wall. They're deaf to logic.
It's obvious that he started his research willing to let go of a denomination, but not willing to let go of an afterlife. It's simply, and in some way understandable, fear of death.
I think it comes more from the idea that, look, if I can dream of much better futures and realities and this is where I'm at, then I hope there's something beyond here because this sucks. That's why people are so fascinated with the "supernatural" because realistically, this planet sucks pretty hard in terms of what anyone is capable of doing versus what they are capable of imagining.
@@ramario6195 look up Caitlin Doughty and her channel AskAMortician, she's all about death acceptance and helping people alleviate those fears by educating them about the processes of death and how to cope with the concept
The afterlife is a logically distinct question from that of the existence of gods. It is perfectly possible that there is some sort of afterlife even if there are no gods. Most Western people have been brainwashed into thinking that the two issues are linked, but that is only the case in certain religions.
i like this dad a lot,it almost hurt to hear the despair in his voice. i wish he can free him self from the horrible fear wich the church planted in his heart.
Some of my friends say some similar definition of their belief of god... That science cannot prove it, but it somehow exists in the universe, i do get where this idea is coming from, but i personally feel like, okay then it doesnt matter what i think about him or her at all... Idk if i can convey this thought correctly in words tho... Lemme know if it makes sense
This guy actually cared enough to do research, he has more love for his son than so many parents do and you can hear him flipping through pages, he has notes
Major Marketing sorry man. Keep your heart open to him if you want a relationship with him and maybe he will come around. I think if you do restore your relationship it may be worth it to let him die a theist (meaning don’t tru and convert him to logic) although I don’t think you should feign the same belief just to appease him.
great caller...just another day in the office for Matt. but if a person question his own ideas of reality because of his kids. it shows a huge amount of love. in my eyes this guy is alright
He at least shows promise. Way more reasonable than most callers, but I just get concerned he either won't let go, (his choice), or he'll double down on the, "my kid is going to hell", and wreck that relationship.
Judgement day is coming for everybody even matt here. I wonder what he'll say on judgement day? It will be too late then. Both the unrighteous and righteous will stand before God. Time is running out.
@@chronicler2313 If you can't even prove god's existence, the bible veracity and the rest of the content, why would anyone care about judgement day. Why matt will ever care about judgment day anyway, he is not a criminal, the lie about unbelieving or the adoption of christ is just for fools to obey priests and other eclesiastic leaders.
@@coco_bold God has already given man sufficient evidence of His existence. Scripture says all who have yet to come to Jesus are condemned already. Basically the reason physical death exists is because of sin. Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Matt himself still has time left to repent. No one talks about God more than atheists they refute themselves and their position when they talk and post about God all day.
@@chronicler2313 yes blah blah, and the book of wrath says something else, and the Quran too, and the book of ptath, and the necronomicon too. Prove your book , until now you're just telling dumb things out of nothing.
@@chronicler2313 You'd be angry and pissed off as well, dealing with people inculcated by a worldview that is predicated on a falsehood. I see no arrogance.
My father was an atheist. In this video, this caller displayed many of the attributes I loved about my father -- compassion, honesty, kindness, patience -- and I find myself missing my father all over again. To the kids who convinced their father to call into this show: you've got a good one. Cherish him while he's here, and be grateful you had him when he's gone.
@@KikomochiMendoza no, I was saying that this was about as... I don't have _NEARLY_ enough fucking soap/mouthwash on hand to call it "healthy"... as things are likely to get. Next time he calls... best case scenario, it's the same damn convo, ver-fucking-batim.
I was saved and baptized at 7, went to Christian schools and even college. When my daughter decided she was an atheist in college (she had also accepted Jesus and had been baptized in middle school), I continued research I had stopped when she was old enough to understand religion. The reason I had stopped searching was the fact that I didn’t want her to go to hell (or for me to be a bad parent for not raising her in the church). Shortly thereafter, I was finally able to admit to her and myself that I was an atheist, too. Our children are often wiser than us, especially if we’ve done a good job raising them, and I’m proud to say my daughter’s wisdom in this area led to me being free of a heavy burden I had carried for over 40 years.
Thats powerful stuff. I am the atheist son of two parents that believe in god, my mom went to church when i was young, my dad was a military man, so they both raised me saying there is a god. I have had many talks with both parents independently (as theyre divorced) and slowly but surely, my mom is less judgmental, doesn't proclaim any god exists, and accepts that my points make sense. She was very resistent because she was afraid of hell. Her sister had drilled the idea of hell and damnation into her since around my birth 30 years ago. I had to convince her with patience that "oh damn, something monumentally horrible just happened in your life. But youre a good, god fearing christian. Why would he be punishing you?" And id sort of socratic method her into realizing that she isnt being punished. Shit happens to good and bad people. There is no god pulling the strings. And she still is indoctrinated and fearful of a hell, but i will always point out when the reality of life is in direct contradiction to what it should be if god is controlling the whole thing. I love my mom too much to let her go forever re-traumatizing herself and applying further the abuses of a religion on herself. Shes made a lot of progress and im proud of her. Hasnt gone to church in over 10 years, and i started the process at 15. My dad was the less religious and more spiritual parent with his own conception of god, so he was harder to shake of his beliefs, mainly because they were genuinely his own. And i can accept his way of seeing it. He believes in a loving god that wants us to be and do right, doesnt hold wrath over us and threaten damnation. And if there were a god, i think he's as close to right as people can get, unless god is some vindictive being that just wants to create suffering, which is equally plausible if a god were real. My mom went to UC Berkeley and my dad went to west point, so theyre both equipped with critical thinking skills, but didnt choose to fully apply them with respect to a god belief. My closest cousin died last year from brain cancer and i was struggling, so i reached out to dad. And i had another discussion about how there is no god, there is only the universe and if people want to call it god, whatever, do you, but it doesnt think or feel anything for or about us, and when we die, we are gone. There is no afterlife. Thats it. And he finally admitted that hes considered my points over years of speaking about this, and he thinks im probably right about a god, and that we can agree that whether its the universe or a sentient being, he can call it god and i can not, but we are speaking about the same thing. Whatever is the grand source of the universe, be it the universe itself or something else, call it what you will, but it wont be judging you or me. He still believes in an afterlife, as does my mom, but they have rejected the christian organized structure entirely, acknowledge that its bs and respect that their son has fully and honestly explored the topic with an open heart and mind, and thats special to me. I havent made atheists of them, but ive brought them close enough to my beliefs to agree mostly without feeling like they're betraying some god figure. Sorry for ranting, but you reminded me of my parents and the willingness to be intellectually honest and let go of bullshit thats obviously bullshit. Thanks for sharing. You should be proud of your kid and yourself. :) We kids do sometimes have a good idea or two.
there is also always a delay with this call in system, so the pause may not really be as long as it seems. It's also why both sides often interrupt unintentionally whenever the person talking takes a breath or a pause at the end of a sentence
Joe Mcghee something something spiritual image not physical image blah blah Apologetics is easy when you can just make up any handwaivey BS you want to suit your worldview...like a distinction between objective and material reality
Holy shit its so great to see a father have enough respect for his kids to listen to them and not just talk them down and force ideas onto them. Well done Tim!
tbf doing that with someone who has aspergers is probably a bit more difficult :P but I agree... as the son said in the comments, it was his birthday present that the dad called the show. Freaking awesome of him.
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Those kids of his are champs. They deserve something special for helping their dad out like this.
R&om Matt Dillahunty is one of the most despicable debaters out there. Yeah, he’s awful convincing to a guy who isn’t strong in his faith. This dad was easily persuadable. Wasn’t even sure what he truly believed. So of course this was a “productive” conversation. Matt has a hard time keeping his worthless suck device shut when arguing with a knowledgeable theist that’s strong in their faith. Outspoken atheists like Matt are some of the most pathetic people out there.
I'm crying right now. This is what we need. Empathy and love over faith. Pursuit of truth over pursuit of being right. OMG thank you to this father for being a real father.
@@PortlandMan he’s wrong but he’s still a. Good dude. Sucks that he’s getting “duped” but with his studying he might eventually come into a new conclusion.
I'm Australian, and I remember when a media mogul of Australia (a billionaire), by the name of Kerry Packer, had a heart attack and died on 'the table'. When he was asked what he experienced when he was 'clinically dead', here's what he had to say about it: "I’ve been to the other side, and let me tell you, son, there’s f*cking nothing there".
Hmm. I'm not convinced of his claim. In order to be fully dead you have to totally not come back at all. Jesus is the only One who defeated death and came back.
@MosesBad Doesn't your religion of evolution claim survival of the fittest and not focus on truth? Whatever God says on a very basic level is truth. God is not a man that he should lie and He Himself is not a liar not even capable of it. I think you're in denial not that you're unconvinced.
@TEAM XBOX indoctrination is more powerful than you realize. Billions of people are duped everyday by various tales of space daddy's. Doesnt mean this guy is dumb in fact he sounds pretty friggin intelligent. Kid's are assholes for setting up their dad for a verbal whipping by Matt.
@@Dontbustthecrust Are you sure the kids had that intention? Perhaps they wanted their father to be exposed to differing opinions that might have a positive impact on his life. Considering that he was willing to do a lot of research and reading on the subject already, he could well be open to having a good and productive conversation. He seems to be a rather intelligent person that has been very strongly indoctrinated. As such, perhaps his children are attempting to break through that indoctrination. I suspect if I was his child I would be frustrated by his position, and would at least make some attempts to correct his epistemology. Not like we can really know though because we only know the children through his words. As a side note he seems to have a mind set that would like Pascal's wager. He can't demonstrate that God exists, but just in case God does exist, he should act like God exists. In hind sight, it would have been nice to know what sort of God he believes actually exists. If it's some form of amorphous deism, does God, or a belief in him have any impact on his life? If It's a traditional Christian God, why can't we see regular and clear examples of God intervening in our daily lives. Or most likely some pseudo Christian thing saying religion is a flawed attempt to understand a God that doesn't interact with us. I guess my fundamental question is, if something can or doesn't interact with us, how is it relevant in any way?
I don’t think y’all understand how scary it is to final admit to yourself that you don’t believe in something that’s SPECIFICALLY tells you if you don’t believe you are eternally tortured forever 😅. I think he already really wants to let go but he is hanging on by fear. Reminds me of exactly where i was at at one point.
I agree. I sometimes still get the "what if I'm wrong" thought. I get over it by remembering what matt said years ago. Something along the lines of "the God of the bible is a moral thug. If I've lived a good life and was kind to people and stand before god and he sends me to hell for simply not believing in him I would tell him he should've given clear signs. I can live that eternity knowing I have higher moral values then this so called god."
i still have the fear. it wont go away. it is not so much the fear of, what if i am wrong but rather just fear, indoctrinated fear. i realized that even following everything my church was teaching, i lived in constant fear and felt never really safe from hell or from god s wrath or the like. then i was attacked in the streets and realized that god did not protect me even though i devoted my entire time to god. so this gave me even more fear. so in the end, with church attendence i lived a life of fear, i realized, so without it, what could get worse? i still have the fear, it is difficult to shake it off, but at least i have my time for myself now, for catching up with education etc. instead of spending all my days in praying and praises constantly. i was anazed about the amounts of time i suddenly had at my hands. i hope the fear will go some day, and i envy those who grew up secular and without fear indoctrination. maybe it just takes the body a while to grasp that, yes, no lightning will struck you for blaspheming. i remember an orthodox jew turned atheist, who said that he spent an hour in excruciating fear of an actual lighning striking him dead when he dared for the first time in his life to turn a button or flip a switch on a sabbath. he said he sat there in full expectation of being killed any moment, tortured by agonizing fear for about an hour but nothing happened. when he realized that nothing happened, his body slowly adjusted, and finally the fear went away.
@@miotch8225 I'm in the same place. Growing up having that drilled into you, and not only having everyone around you police your thoughts, but being educated in a way that forces your brain to police it's self. Escaping that mentality, but always being plagued by the feeling that even though it doesn't logically add up, God is real and therefore so is Hell, is pretty difficult to deal with. A lot of people find it easier to just ignore the logical problems and continue on with life.
@@hermione3muller674 that must be tough. I was a Christian until I was 12. Even as a Christian I couldn't bring myself to believe in angels, demons, the devil or hell. It always seemed ridiculously absurd to me. I'm sure it helped make it easier for me to leave the church
It is terrifying. Once I confronted what no god meant it was pretty upsetting. No eternal paradise, no reuniting with departed loved ones and knowing once this life is over, it's over. It's a lot to take in.
S Iam - "Once I confronted what no god meant it was pretty upsetting. No eternal paradise, no reuniting with departed loved ones and knowing once this life is over, it's over." I was raised in a small-ish California town in an environment of Christian beliefs of several stripes & flavors all around me… still I managed to deflect the nonsense of it all. Never could understand why the silliness of the "eternal paradise & reuniting with departed loved ones" claims weren't as easy to shrug off by the time of one's adolescence as it was to let go of the claim for the existence of Santa Claus years earlier. As for "once this life is over, it's over"… why this is perceived as "bad news" is particularly baffling to me. Once the transition from having existed to no longer existing has occurred, it can only be knowable and something to have "feelings" about by people who continue to exist… meaning it is impossible for you to care or even KNOW you no longer exist (the very definition of not existing). On the other hand, eternal existence is the most unnatural thing i can imagine and a completely terrifying concept. it would almost certainly lead to insanity for which there would NEVER be any relief… and NEVER is a mighty LONG TIME. All living organisms have a lifespan… it's as natural as can be.
Yes, i'd go as far as to say most likely VERY few people view the end of this life in a similar way… but it is dispassionately logical. Our anxiety and/or fear of death is almost certainly based in the uncertainty about the myriad claims for what's on the "other side"… but being sad or finding it disheartening that we will not survive our physical death to carry on is something we can only experience while we are here. We don't concern ourselves with what we were up to during the eons of time before we were born, we have no non-superstitious reason to think we will "exist" to be concerned about why we no longer exist (if you know what I mean). It comes down to whether you view the world through a lens of emotion & superstition, or whether you choose logic & reason to shape your outlook.
Only about 5 minutes in and I can say, he'll of a good parent. Nobody's perfect, but he was able to tell his child that they were right and he was wrong about something fundamental to his worldview. Mad respect.
"I don't think I like your example." "Of course, you don't. That's why I picked it." Summary of what happens, when you try to shine a light on a irrational position. ...
I wouldn't pick an example based off whether or not they like it. I'd pick it based off whether or not it's efficacious (which isn't necessarily correlated with whether they like it).
@@Steelmage99 No, not really actually. He picked one because he didn't like it. But anyway, I see what Matt meant, but taking this in isolation is a little ambiguous. All the best.
Same. There was patience on both ends of the line and respect all around. The willingness to learn from Tim and excellent and easy to follow deconstructions of hard to grasp concepts from Matt and Jim all together was top notch.
@Hillary's emails to Lorne sure he babbled a bit, but he was honest enough to listen to the evidence and accept the conclusion. Given time he'll let it go
Victor Anni One video I think is worth watching is the one titled: “How can anyone be an atheist”; Manda calling from Lynchburg, VA. Video is dated 03/14/2018 from episode 22.09
I also place this as one of the best interactions. The respect and listening to one another was great. Yes, Tim did have some barriers he could not address during the call on the moment. But, I suspect upon listening to it after and reflecting upon it - maybe with discussion including kids ... He will make progress with those barriers. At least to realize how the beliefs he holds are not held for rational reasons. If you read this, good job Tim - you have critically looked at what you grew up believing, that is difficult. You treated the positions of your children with respect when they conflicted with yours. On the Axp side - they kept things going and because he was respectful it allowed the call to move forward and be respectful and kind. A great example of a call to show a theist wondering about calling. Toss in a example of what turns a call into non-productive as a don't and it is almost a quickie guide.
Jon Leach I haven’t seen Matt return respect 99% of the time he received it. The guy is junky for choosing to be annoyed and then throwing a tantrum. He gets more views from it.
@@Badle-fw6fw His point was that people earn respect not only by showing respect but also how they think and act. (You could be talking to a respectful Nazi, does that mean you should show respect back). Also matt probably gets annoyed and stops showing respect because either he already sees where the caller is going and it's not a good case or the caller is being difficult.
I'm really glad they let him go for as long as he did. It gave a rare insight into the interwoven complexities of theology. Traditionally the show picks apart the beliefs, arguments and facts one by one step by step. I think it is beneficial to listen to multiple flawed aspects of belief in one pontification.
I know this caller understands and more than likely agrees with Matt, but like Matt said his own brain is stopping him from admitting it. This caller does not sound stupid. Ignorance is not just what you don't know, it is also what you won't know. - AronRa Great call.
@25:46 -- Quick note, just as a reminder for clarification; the scientific process does not(or at least, should not) attempt to explain that a given hypothesis is true but rather attempts to falsify that hypothesis. If, in the attempts to falsify it, the hypothesis stands unhindered after sufficient experimentation, we may then consider it a viable theory. A theory, of course, may still be falsifiable in the future given new experimentation resultant from a greater understanding. It is this process of falsification, using established facts(theories which have remained unhindered after overwhelming experimentation), that helps to eliminate such things as confirmation bias. We do not do testing to 'confirm' a hypothesis, but rather test to eliminate a hypothesis as a viable explanation for an observation. Only when a hypothesis cannot be eliminated are we left with undeniable confirmation. So, confirmation is not the goal but rather the consequence of experimentation. I believe this distinction is of paramount importance as it fundamentally distinguishes science from belief.
this is why the way p-value is defined is so confusing because it's defined around a null hypothesis rather a "positive" hypothesis. it's very counter-intuitive to our nature to confirm our assumptions. when in fact, we should seek to disprove them because a confirmed assumptions could still have contradicting evidence and we can never claim to have absolute knowledge of everything. to the contrary, contradicting evidence disproves our assumptions quite absolutely.
I was born Catholic and then my parents converted me to Evangelism. At the age of 13/14 I started to doubt and became eventually an Atheist. It was a hard journey and I feel for Tim. What a great dad and I have so much respect for him calling in. I hope he just never stops exploring.
Fear is a strong primal instinct, it makes people think and behave in irrational and unreasonable ways. Tim has one foot out side of the box of belief, the strongest thing stopping him from taking the next step, is fear, the fear of what God will do to him if he dares to think heretical thoughts. Remember, for Tim thought crime is real, and punishable with eternal suffering. Everything Tim is using to stay his wavering confidence in a God is failing, he is unable to find any arguments that can withstand logic refutation, and every time his arguments fail, another brick is knocked out of the pillar of his belief. The effect of this instability is a magnification of religious fear. The more bricks that loosen and fall the more thinking Tim is forced to do, and the more thinking Tim does, the more instances of thought crime Tim is forced to commit. And for Tim God will exact his revenge on him. What a Terrifying way to live life.
Badger bush I really like your comment man. You took an empathetic approach. I see so many people calling theists dumb or just making fun of THEM in addition to their beliefs which irritates me since I have very religious parents who are reasonable in every other aspect of life. But because they and most other theists have had these psychological tactics used on them since birth, they will not even question their religion because like you said, it’s fear of being separated from family or being tortured forever. These tactics control so many great people’s lives and I feel legitimate sadness when I think about that.
Tyvonix72 I can relate to that. I myself, am surrounded by friends and family, all of them believers, I don't have a single friend who not a believer. Luckily we are a close family, we all get along for the most part, accept on the topic of religion. I don't ever bring the subject up, but when it does arise, i am more then willing to have the conversation. I've devoted quite some time to the studying of the bible. The one thing I have noticed in my conversions with those who profess an unbreakable faith is. The majority have never read the bible, not in its entirety, or even in part for that matter. And yet they hold it up as the evidence that is the foundation of there belief. Most people have a kind of, patched together fairytale version of the bible in there minds, a version that is at odds with what is to be found between the pages. My bother and i were talking, and i asked "Is slavery wrong?" He replied "Yes" I went on to show him where in the bible God condones slavery and even lays out the frame work for slaves and how they are to be treated. He sat there wrestling the moral conflict of an all good God who is pro slavery for a moment. And then he went on to argue that the slavery in the bible must be some sort of moral slavery. I went on to show him where God says you can beat your slaves and even beat them to death and it's not even considered a sin to do so by God. He simply could not acknowledge what was right in front of him. He insisted it must be some how a justifiable moral slavery. His unquestioning faith had now lead him to defend the owning of humans as property, and the beating to death of these individuals be they man, women or child, without punishment. And all commanded by an all good God.
Badger bush - very true. I also see it as a fear of the unknown - if my beliefs are wrong/can be proven to be wrong, then what is the truth? I don't know! At this point, if I accept that my beliefs are wrong, then what lies ahead of me is unknown territory. I have comfort to keep my beliefs as they are, even if they are not true, and avoid the discomfort of 'not knowing' the truth. I also see Tim's dilemma as fear of being wrong. Admitting that one was mistaken, one's core beliefs about life (which began for him, he said, when he was still in diapers) held for decades, were all nothing but lies and not truth - quite disturbing to face and the fear comes from deep in the psyche.
This Dad is amazing. Regardless of his beliefs I have so much respect for him for at least trying to understand his kids regardless of his strong beliefs.
Statistics can "lie," because humans are the ones who "counted" something. All statistics are socially constructed, because humans make choices about what and how to count something. To some extent, all statistics are, at a minimum, somewhat misleading (and that's the best case scenario.)
@@redners11 That's a distinction without a difference. Statistics are not just "out there" waiting to be discovered, like some kind of chemical reaction or how we calculate circumference or something. All statistics are created by humans; that true by definition of the very concept. That's the point. You seem to be missing that point, I think? Statistics are not like scientific truths just waiting to be discovered, like the speed of light or how fast objects fall. Statistics are not like physics or chemistry, or even math (statistics are incredibly different than math, even though math is used to calculate them.) Do you see what I mean?
I saw religion split families choosing religion over family is a grave mistake. Glad to see the father truly looking into things for the sake of his children.
You’re confusing ‘faith’ with the idea of having faith, and belief with sound evidence THE PEOPLE SING. Faith in the biblical sense means belief contrary to sound evidence.
Somethings just ring true to me. It's not reasonable, but intuition can be all l have to go on. God is someone else's concept and not my own. Therefore I have to follow my own path and not theirs.
You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. It is a difficult thing to not know what is true and have to rely on Dillahunty, Ra, and co for reality and truth when they have believed differently in the past and would have told you back then that a different truth/reality was true/real.
Tommy Harring truth? Which truth, the 2000 year old book that is full of claims with no evidence or the five major branches of the Christian faith, or Islam, Judaism, the Ancient Greek, Roman, Norse or Egyptian pantheons? Or any other deity humans created, believed in and worshipped for millennia? Or this truth..? the quality or state of being true. that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality. a fact that is accepted as true. I know which truth I accept, and it isn’t found in a two millennia old book.
Of course not. Faith is believing something is true without proof (a postulate). Faith is hoping (child-like thinking) something is true, despite all evidence to the contrary or worse yet, no evidence at all. Now, the question, is this how a reasonable person arrives at a truth? In my opinion, a reasonable does not rely on faith to arrive at a truth. Therefore, a reasonable person would not reject evolution because it has been proven to happen, which means beyond a doubt.
Touching video. As a father of three precious children, struggling with some of the same issues, I found this to be profoundly valuable. Thank you guys.
If he were honest, he would've directly answered the question about the reliability of faith as a path to truth. I'll grant that he was more honest than most theist callers.
I love that he says "Yes, of course" like it's a totally normal thing for a dad to do something just to make their kids happy even if it's potentially embarassing. Great dad indeed. :)
I have been where Tim is currently. It's a very difficult place to be in. But, he seems to be open to have his mind and positions changed. And that is such an important thing!
This was an awesome call. I loved how his children urged him to call and that he did it and showed genuine interest in a productive conversation. What a fantastic way to start the show!
There’s no way that baby/toddler story from around 15:00 onwards is true. Children have a pretty good concept of language by the time they’re one or two years old. But, they definitely do not have the kind of awareness that makes them go “Oh, I’m part of this big thing”. That type of consciousness doesn’t develop until the age of 4-6 years. So, he may think that’s a memory he has, but it’s a bogus story.
You can't say that because everyone is different for instance my sister told me theirs no way I remembered the things I remember from when I was below 2 years of age but yet I was able to describe to her in detail the house we moved out of long before my 2nd birthday or even talk, how could I make up exactly what was fact
@@bacicinvatteneaca They could have called out the probability of a false memory, but it wouldn't have been relevant. It was a memory of an experience of feeling like he was a part of some greater whole outside of himself. Even if it happened to him 2 days ago, what would it demonstrate exactly? Not much point in debunking a detail of some weak experiential argument.
4 роки тому
William McConville It is entirely possible that you have reconstructed that memory, the idea of your house at 2. In fact, it is the more scientifically likely option. It is increadibly rare for events before the age of 3-5 to be remembered because they simply aren’t usually that important. Traumatic experiences aside most memories at 2 aren’t interesting or fundamental in any way other than building the brain up to eventually being able to remember more. The most likely cause of your memory is from hearing people talk about the house and you constructing those pictures into a false memory, this is in line with what we know. Most memories are partly false. Each and every time you remember something you have to do a little work in reconstructing it, you may add a detail here, remove one there, and eventually the memory is really similar but very different. Maybe you once remembered that the house had white walls but now you think it had sky blue walls. This happens to everyone and is the norm.
@ so his early childhood memory is just as valid as any other memory he has, since all memory is an imperfect construction? his memory of that house may be as accurate as the memory of his house from when he was 6. and you can have memories from before 3, but the caller was talking about remembering his coming to a deeper understanding of his place in the universe at that age, which is highly unlikely if at all possible...
Tim has such a beautiful spirit to do that for his son! The way he choked up about judging his son had me slinging snot and tears! Most religious parents just disown you and throw you to the wolves! Tim is a rock star dad!!😢🤧👏👏👏👏👏
Man! When Tim was at the point of admitting the fact that faith is an unreliable path to truth, he just couldn't do it. It was like trying to force two magnets' like poles together. He'd slip off to some comment about "science" or some such that had nothing to do with the point being discussed. Now THAT'S a brain that is so severely in denial, it can't respond to a simple yes/no question. Kudos to Matt for explaining exactly what was happening, and even after doing so, I still think Tim was still in denial. Just 'wow.'
That's the power of belief. They become so deeply entrenched in a person's psyche, that when challenged to the point of collapse, the brain puts up barriers to prevent the loss of that belief, because to lose that belief would result in a huge loss of meaning to that person. It does seem that Tim is at least prepared to engage in a meaningful discussion about his faith, and I wish him all the best as he begins his journey towards a rational future
My family is the same way sadly they just say "I believe what I believe and that's that." Yet they can't seem to explain a simple verse in bible like how the hell a man lived in a giant fish or a guy walked on water and how his body launched literally into space.
@@johnmason9045 I agree. I think it also has a lot to do with ego; they've invested so much time, energy, money and public commitment that to change their minds would be practically as bad as dying. If there's one thing humans don't like to do, it's dying. De-conversion can take years - let us pray that Tim has begun his journey out of his self-imposed delusions. ;-)
It's like playing a game of Jenga and being forced to pull out a piece from the bottom. The whole belief structure collapses, and it takes time an effort to build a new and hopefully sturdier one. Next time: If faith is an unreliable path to truth, why do preachers keep praising faith as a virtue and condemning doubt as a sin? Hint: Atheists don't pay tithes.
I think you guys are doing a great job, especially when you have calls like this one. I listen almost daily and look forward to the day I have the opportunity to call, a topic to discuss, and the ability to overcome my stage freight, all at the same time. Keep up the good work!
I love this discourse. Matt: "a+b=c, correct? Caller: "correct" Matt: "so c-b=a, correct?" *crickets* Caller: "I don't understand lemme redirect this waaaaaay off course-" Matt: "oh ffs!" It's like trying to teach a goldfish cursive writing.
I know I exist and that is it as an absolutely true statement. Everything else has a burden of proof to persuade me. The best after I exist is testing, experimentation or let’s simplify it “checking” which is called Science. Or Knowledge. Could all be wrong but more reliable than any other route to truth (just checking). To see if something is real, test it.
George Steele Type this in in the you tube search box " the devil's bible predicted September 11 over 700 years ago" the video last 9:13 the channel is titled leak project.
Philip Leitch Man, I gotta get in on this. Have you written a book yet? Who do I need to start hating? I wanna get a head start on this religion. I’ll start going door to door tomorrow to spread the good word. Just let me know who’s not allowed in & we’re all set 😉
Hats off to the “ Dad “ I respect you Sir Its not easy, doing what you did It tells me that you really do love your kids in a Non Selfish way That is, not as “your kids” but as separate Living creatures You are almost there I am an Atheist But guys, i think you were too hard on the Dude He’s trying He’s stumbling, but is atleast Genuinine
He was great. I understand his compulsion to hang on to theism despite the inconsistencies in all the religions he researched. He is definitely working through his thoughts and his belief and i hope he becomes a theistic apologist or something someday. It would be great to see more dialogue like this
Coming from a person who’s religious mother’s response to my questioning her beliefs at 22 was flipping a table, breaking my nose, and beating me with a chair I really admire this man and his willingness to listen to his kids and think critically. He’s trying and he’s willing to listen and that warms my heart that he loves and respects his kids enough to at least try to understand.
I wish he wouldn't use the f bomb, because many radicalized conservative Christians will never here what he has to say because they can't get passed profanity. They are as afraid of profanity almost as much as they fear God. God speaks things into existence so to them words have special powers. God is the word.
I worked in critical care. Dead is dead. I've done more CPR than anyone I know. Sometimes it is successful, sometimes it is not no matter how hard you try or how hopeful you are in the attempt. I lost people I loved dearly. It was their time and no amount of medical attention we knew of changed that fact. It makes me cry to this day. You cannot save them all.
I don't believe in an afterlife but you didn't explain your reasoning for saying dead is dead. Did some of them come back and say "I saw nothing, I was just unconscious and there was nothingness"?
@@lachousalle31 I had a friend that OD'd and died a few minutes and then was in a coma for a week.... when he woke up he was asked what if anything he experienced.... he said blackness until he woke.... so my theory was his brain was so drugged up... his brain could not protect itself with the visions and euphoria that most of the NDE people claim to see...
I don't think that one actually can have a coherent memory prior to the formation of language -- so his "memory" of walking out in diapers, seeing the sky - not knowing what it is, not yet having language, but nevertheless having a sense of the existence of God, is almost certainly a "constructed memory" formed much later in life and projected backward.
To both of you: Sounds reasonable. It strikes me as not-too-credible when someone claims to have memories _as specific as_ "walking in diapers" and "seeing the sky" from before having acquired language, the reason being that the _concepts_ of "walking", "diapers", "seeing" and "sky" are simply not known at that stage. I suspect that sensorial / experiential memories from such an early stage of life might survive, but they would have beeen stored without their conceptual meaning, or, as you put it: not as coherent memories. As a personal sidenote though, I remember having had the experience, when I was very young (before I had acquired language), of _recognizing_ certain music (which my mother played on a tape recorder), from what *felt* as an earlier stage of life, which I described (once I HAD acquired language) as something that I remembered having heard when I still was "on the other side". THAT memory ITSELF has long vanished, but I DO remember the remembering...
@Feiner Fug "can anyone explain the rather incoherent mess I made when pasting "prodprod" on my first reply?" I can't explain it, but I sometimes experience something similar in the subject field when I send email. It is as if Windows has a number of clipboards (not just one), any of which it can use, depending on which one is selected via mouse-scroll... A moss-covered tuff wall...? Was/were there any feeling(s) attached to the memory? Iow do you feel that it had some meaning to you, or do you have the impression that it could be related to an event that had or must have had a special significance to you? Was the image a representation of a real (existing) wall, or do you estimate that it was an artificial memory (as far as you can remember)? I have f.i. a memory (this one IS still faintly accessible) of what I would now describe as "being in a sortof boiling liquid", and which cannot be a memory of a real event. It HAS feelings attached to it though.
@Feiner Fug I would argue that if you "remember remembering it," then the memory is most likely created. I have a memory that is just a fuzzy image of a house from the perspective of a small child (likely about 1 yr old, give or take a few months) sitting on a blanket on a sunny day. I have described the house to my mother and she said it sounds like the house our family lived in before my parents divorced, which happened when I was about 18 months old. The most likely scenario for me is that I have constructed this "memory" from years of hearing about this house that I have no memory of ever being inside. It feels like a real memory, but knowing how much our memories cannot be trusted, I can never claim that it is a true memory. I will never really know for sure if it is or not, but I would never go around telling people about this memory as if it were absolutely 100% authentic, as Tim did in this call. That is a claim that he just cannot back up and is a rather silly one to make.
@Feiner Fug yes, I have heard it said that we are remembering the last time we remembered it, not the original event. You can watch a memory change right before your eyes. I have had someone tell me a story, then listen to them tell the same story to someone else later on and notice a few detail changes from the version that was told to me earlier. It happens that fast. It is really apparent how bad our memories are when you see programs where they have something happen in front of a group of people, then interview the people about what happened. Their recall will be all over the place. This is why eye witness testimony is the worst evidence you can have in a criminal case. It should never be trusted unless you have multiple people telling very similar stories independently. Even then, you cannot trust the specific details, but you can assume that the basic core of the story is likely to be true. You have to take everyone's stories with a huge grain of salt and always fact check them before passing them off as true.
@@Karamarika "I have had someone tell me a story, then listen to them tell the same story to someone else later on and notice a few detail changes from the version that was told to me earlier." How do you know the changes were in your memory, rather than their telling? Was this a written story that they were reading word for word? I mean, I have very often heard people "quote" movies and completely mess up the quote. Being familiar with the source (and being able to view it again), I know that it's their retelling that is wrong, not my memory of the movie.
This was so heartwarming. I wish more Christians were like this dad. I was just like him when I started deconstructing. It hurt me, but like they say "the truth hurts" and I accepted it. Now I'm free from the poison that is religion.
Kudos to the dad he was very respectable and i wish him the best. And good on everyone involved for being respectful period this was definitely the best call I've seen so far in terms of actual progressive discussion because it is my guilty pleasure to see callers get destroyed lol but i didn't wish that on this man
Matt's genius is that he's able to filter complex thoughts into something simple enough for the layman to comprehend. I have no doubt he can get technical, but fact that he's extremely knowledgeable yet able to piecemeal his POV at almost anyone level is just amazing.
Totally agree. Matt didn't miss a beat when he sensed Tim needed direction and was super patient. Showed why he does this for a living in this call for sure.
What a great call! That was a real genuine conversation with Tim, I think, fighting real demons about his faith. Matt really is a linguistic wizard and I wish Tim all the best and I hope he comes to a reasonable conclusion eventually.
Both hosts were absolutely fantastic here. Early on you both identified the situation as a parent trying to understand their child. Further the caller is clearly in the midst of making that hard philosophical leap out of hardcore evangelical fundamental Christianity. Both hosts made points to help him with the correct logical arguments to apply and additional learning materials which I think is great. I felt it when he said all religions are the same, I can recall that stage of my bout with faith. It's hard to accept that we might be all alone on this rock drifting through space. The caller did also hint he had felt what I felt when I came full circle to atheism, it's your outlook that changes. You want to help better life for everyone around you because this life we are living is probably all we got. Sorry for the ramble. Great show!
someone get this man Tim a medal!! I have never heard such a rational minded theistic person interviewed, that I so completely relate to and sympathize with. thank you tim!
When the first thing a theist says for believeing in god is «I don't wanna burn in hell», you know it's the result of abuse, not proof.
Any theist who makes that claim are not good
@@onlyechadtherebellious2467 Why? What makes a good thiest?
@@onlyechadtherebellious2467 Any theist that follows the rule of their religion is not good??
@A. G. Not necessarily. My parents were older. My dad was in WWII. Everybody went to church. Southern Baptist revivals are a week long preaching of how your going to be in hell if you don’t repent. I get it though, I’ve been an atheist for about 10 years, and sometimes it’s still in the back of my mind. 🔥🔥🔥
@@sfvaitkus how is that a "not necessarily" to the claim that it's abuse to do that to someone?
Holy shit there's a dad that cared enough to actually look. Good for them, I didn't think this happened. More parents should try to understand their kids this way, even if they continue disagree. Heart warming story, I can't express how happy I am for the son especially to have such a relationship with his father.
That's what I thought even though he probably new matt would show his reasoning to be floud. He still called in.. I enjoyed this episode an no.. IV PUT YOU ON HOLD IV NOT HUNG UP. 😁
@Hillary's emails to Lorne at least Tim is trying, and talking to his kids to understand. Trust me, when it comes to level of ignorance Tim is a saint compared to some other theist.
@@halo4176 I agree. Tim may sound ridiculous, but I have family members that don't talk to me any more, thankfully my mom isn't one of them.
He for all the stuff he tells them and buys, listens to his children. That makes him a decent parent in my eyes But tim should really try to let his kids be whatever they want to be unless its really harmul. Even if i believe in that god i dont think he would seperate loving families after death. Through i respect him be willing to listen.
Must b nice to have an understanding father willing to have a conversation.
Wow, Tim had the longest unbroken monologue I've ever heard on an Atheist Experience.
Well worth listening to though :)
I was just about to say that.
And it was a great one
@@jamtaco2667 your memory statement is not true at all...but i agree that they shouldve stopped him rambling on for as long as he did.
@@jamtaco2667 the sally ann test isnt relevant to this discussion? it doesnt comment on when a child can develop their 'own' memory, just that they need to have that ability to pass the test. and if they do pass, the results dont tell you anything about if their early memories are false or not. semantic/episodic memory is also a different discussion. there are loads of studies providing information pointing towards children developing and recalling memories as early as 18 months...i could go look and provide links or you could cut out the middle man and just google it.
"A god that does not manifest in reality is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist."
- Matt
@@Helios601 Your whole argument is an Argument from Ignorance. It's a logical fallacy and you should look it up. Just because we don't know something (like your example, "We see . 0035 of the entire electromagnetic spectrum.") doesn't mean inserting your god of choice is a valid explanation. You're just explaining something with something else that hasn't been explained. Something being possible and something being probably are very often two different things.
@@Helios601 Oh boy, somebody doesn't know anything about quantum entanglement. Let me explain:
Sometimes, when particles are created in pairs, one will have a special relation to another.
Imagine you have a machine that outputs two pennies, one heads and the other tails, at random. If you keep both hidden, and then try to guess the state of one, it's a fifty-fifty chance, as it could be either heads or tails. However, if you check on one of them, you now automatically know the state of the other, because if it is heads, then the other has to be tails, and vice versa.
In quantum physics, this also arises. Take a matter-antimatter annihilation. Two particles collide, an electron and a positron (antielectron), and they annihilate completely, leaving behind only 2 photons. Due to the conservation of momentum, the photons HAVE to have equal and opposite momentum, so if you measure one you automatically know the position of the other.
All this and plenty more can be found on various places on the internet.
If I am not rendered braindead by this, then why would the top physicist minds be?
Also, you try to connect two totally unrelated things, quantum entanglement being used to transmit information and a god.
@@coolguy284_2 coolguy is first guy to solve the quantum entanglement puzzle. You got the universe all figured out. Matt is the guy who tried to explain away plant pyschadelics as being nothing more than hallucinations a person is observing. The guy is a fool. A fool who who makes such sweeping statements whilst knowing less than nothing about certain subjects he's past comment on, is indeed a fool. It's all ego based shit; where your own zeal blinds you to the truth. Human folly, ignorance and allergic reaction to truth will be the extinction of our species. And that's from both sides.
@@Helios601 so... Did you call them yet?
@@Helios601 YES please call in!!! Show Matt who is boss. Save humanity, don't be a pussy.
My parents literally told me that there is absolutely nothing that would convince them that they are wrong (EVEN evidence against creation etc) and that they would not watch any videos or read books that are "against" Christianity (to prevent their minds from being polluted). Its a crazy mindset to work with and I just turned 20 so they dont take me seriously at all, atleast not yet. But when I see that there are parents out there who looks outside their walls just because their children asked them to is amazing. Thank you Tim! You are the best! Your child is lucky to have you.
I'm in the same boat! 21 and in a "rebellious phase" 🤔😂
Glad to know! @@annagosciejew4208
Religious indoctrination teaches people to just believe and that not believing is a sin, and even worse yet, just not believing is the only unforgivable sin. And even worse yet, the punishment is eternal hell. They are just trying to be good people honestly. They are most of all just trying to deal with the fear of hell, so I wouldn’t judge them for that, honestly you wouldn’t judge a person for being afraid of falling while walking a tight rope on top of two skyscrapers.
The reason I'm still in the *atheist closet*
If you're an evangelical Christian, then you live in a land of denial. I was raised evangelical and some of the conversations ive had with my parents make me want to bash my head against the wall. They're deaf to logic.
It's obvious that he started his research willing to let go of a denomination, but not willing to let go of an afterlife.
It's simply, and in some way understandable, fear of death.
I think it comes more from the idea that, look, if I can dream of much better futures and realities and this is where I'm at, then I hope there's something beyond here because this sucks.
That's why people are so fascinated with the "supernatural" because realistically, this planet sucks pretty hard in terms of what anyone is capable of doing versus what they are capable of imagining.
@@alphadoge3604 willful ignorance
I fear death
@@ramario6195 look up Caitlin Doughty and her channel AskAMortician, she's all about death acceptance and helping people alleviate those fears by educating them about the processes of death and how to cope with the concept
The afterlife is a logically distinct question from that of the existence of gods. It is perfectly possible that there is some sort of afterlife even if there are no gods. Most Western people have been brainwashed into thinking that the two issues are linked, but that is only the case in certain religions.
i like this dad a lot,it almost hurt to hear the despair in his voice.
i wish he can free him self from the horrible fear wich the church planted in his heart.
He might not feel fear.
My mom is a believer and doesn't think hell exists.
Danzignan I think he said he was worried for his son though involving going to an eternal place of suffering, he said it somewhat early on
Some of my friends say some similar definition of their belief of god... That science cannot prove it, but it somehow exists in the universe, i do get where this idea is coming from, but i personally feel like, okay then it doesnt matter what i think about him or her at all... Idk if i can convey this thought correctly in words tho... Lemme know if it makes sense
Flame makes sense to me!
Pathological Panda yes he did , he also said he argued with him ? That sounds more of a tyrant than a dad ?
"I'm still in the infancy, of understanding the world around me." Truer words have never been spoken.
No one is ever done understanding the world around them. Major props for him coming on the show. Was probably very hard
DEATH DEALER ???
some video game avatar?
Welcome to the club!
But, but...he’s done so much research!
😆 at least he's honest.
This guy actually cared enough to do research, he has more love for his son than so many parents do
and you can hear him flipping through pages, he has notes
My father said the devil was talking through me and for me to go away when i asked him to watch the video thar convinced me.
@@majormarketing6552 I'm sorry you have to deal with that; conditional love is no love at all. Best of luck, my friend.
Major Marketing lol somehow I could picture this and I’m actually laughing out loud.
Major Marketing I’m only laughing bc I’ve been through the same ... kinda go through it still
Major Marketing sorry man. Keep your heart open to him if you want a relationship with him and maybe he will come around. I think if you do restore your relationship it may be worth it to let him die a theist (meaning don’t tru and convert him to logic) although I don’t think you should feign the same belief just to appease him.
great caller...just another day in the office for Matt. but if a person question his own ideas of reality because of his kids. it shows a huge amount of love. in my eyes this guy is alright
He at least shows promise. Way more reasonable than most callers, but I just get concerned he either won't let go, (his choice), or he'll double down on the, "my kid is going to hell", and wreck that relationship.
Judgement day is coming for everybody even matt here. I wonder what he'll say on judgement day? It will be too late then. Both the unrighteous and righteous will stand before God. Time is running out.
@@chronicler2313 If you can't even prove god's existence, the bible veracity and the rest of the content, why would anyone care about judgement day. Why matt will ever care about judgment day anyway, he is not a criminal, the lie about unbelieving or the adoption of christ is just for fools to obey priests and other eclesiastic leaders.
@@coco_bold God has already given man sufficient evidence of His existence. Scripture says all who have yet to come to Jesus are condemned already. Basically the reason physical death exists is because of sin. Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Matt himself still has time left to repent. No one talks about God more than atheists they refute themselves and their position when they talk and post about God all day.
@@chronicler2313 yes blah blah, and the book of wrath says something else, and the Quran too, and the book of ptath, and the necronomicon too. Prove your book , until now you're just telling dumb things out of nothing.
"top 1% of callers"
Agreed. He was calm and willing to listen, which is more than any other cult member that has called in.
Dillahunty always looks angry and pissed off. His arrogance though it is difficult to watch his videos.
Love this guy!!
@@chronicler2313 You'd be angry and pissed off as well, dealing with people inculcated by a worldview that is predicated on a falsehood. I see no arrogance.
@@Ergeniz Falsehood- You're appealing to God. I'm native american. Native americans don't deny the existence of the Creator. You guys are idiots.
@@chronicler2313 I don't believe in god. Idiot.
My father was an atheist. In this video, this caller displayed many of the attributes I loved about my father -- compassion, honesty, kindness, patience -- and I find myself missing my father all over again. To the kids who convinced their father to call into this show: you've got a good one. Cherish him while he's here, and be grateful you had him when he's gone.
My hat off to this caller. Open to an honest conversation & an obvious, loving, father.
MosesBad they are not taught to shun children for either of those thing currently. In the past that was most likely the case.
Respect to the Dad for trying! He's not there yet but getting closer!
That moment when the kids don't believe in Santa, but the parents do......
What's this?? A good call that didn't involve too much yelling?? Now THAT'S a miracle👌
Wait until he calls back...
@@seand.g423 He calls Back? what episode is that I wanna see
@@KikomochiMendoza no, I was saying that this was about as... I don't have _NEARLY_ enough fucking soap/mouthwash on hand to call it "healthy"... as things are likely to get. Next time he calls... best case scenario, it's the same damn convo, ver-fucking-batim.
Quietlander Gaming Hallelujah.
skydaddy does exist, halleluja
I was saved and baptized at 7, went to Christian schools and even college. When my daughter decided she was an atheist in college (she had also accepted Jesus and had been baptized in middle school), I continued research I had stopped when she was old enough to understand religion. The reason I had stopped searching was the fact that I didn’t want her to go to hell (or for me to be a bad parent for not raising her in the church).
Shortly thereafter, I was finally able to admit to her and myself that I was an atheist, too. Our children are often wiser than us, especially if we’ve done a good job raising them, and I’m proud to say my daughter’s wisdom in this area led to me being free of a heavy burden I had carried for over 40 years.
Wow
That's amazing
Thats powerful stuff. I am the atheist son of two parents that believe in god, my mom went to church when i was young, my dad was a military man, so they both raised me saying there is a god. I have had many talks with both parents independently (as theyre divorced) and slowly but surely, my mom is less judgmental, doesn't proclaim any god exists, and accepts that my points make sense. She was very resistent because she was afraid of hell. Her sister had drilled the idea of hell and damnation into her since around my birth 30 years ago. I had to convince her with patience that "oh damn, something monumentally horrible just happened in your life. But youre a good, god fearing christian. Why would he be punishing you?" And id sort of socratic method her into realizing that she isnt being punished. Shit happens to good and bad people. There is no god pulling the strings. And she still is indoctrinated and fearful of a hell, but i will always point out when the reality of life is in direct contradiction to what it should be if god is controlling the whole thing. I love my mom too much to let her go forever re-traumatizing herself and applying further the abuses of a religion on herself. Shes made a lot of progress and im proud of her. Hasnt gone to church in over 10 years, and i started the process at 15. My dad was the less religious and more spiritual parent with his own conception of god, so he was harder to shake of his beliefs, mainly because they were genuinely his own. And i can accept his way of seeing it. He believes in a loving god that wants us to be and do right, doesnt hold wrath over us and threaten damnation. And if there were a god, i think he's as close to right as people can get, unless god is some vindictive being that just wants to create suffering, which is equally plausible if a god were real. My mom went to UC Berkeley and my dad went to west point, so theyre both equipped with critical thinking skills, but didnt choose to fully apply them with respect to a god belief. My closest cousin died last year from brain cancer and i was struggling, so i reached out to dad. And i had another discussion about how there is no god, there is only the universe and if people want to call it god, whatever, do you, but it doesnt think or feel anything for or about us, and when we die, we are gone. There is no afterlife. Thats it. And he finally admitted that hes considered my points over years of speaking about this, and he thinks im probably right about a god, and that we can agree that whether its the universe or a sentient being, he can call it god and i can not, but we are speaking about the same thing. Whatever is the grand source of the universe, be it the universe itself or something else, call it what you will, but it wont be judging you or me. He still believes in an afterlife, as does my mom, but they have rejected the christian organized structure entirely, acknowledge that its bs and respect that their son has fully and honestly explored the topic with an open heart and mind, and thats special to me. I havent made atheists of them, but ive brought them close enough to my beliefs to agree mostly without feeling like they're betraying some god figure. Sorry for ranting, but you reminded me of my parents and the willingness to be intellectually honest and let go of bullshit thats obviously bullshit. Thanks for sharing. You should be proud of your kid and yourself. :) We kids do sometimes have a good idea or two.
@@Honey_Daddy It's nice to hear your piece.
@@theblackkaiser5748 thank you brother. I appreciate you having taken the time to read it.
Of thousands of calls, this is the most honest and constructive I’ve ever heard. Great conversations guys!
I feel like it has so much to do with the caller's willingness to listen
i love the long pauses of thinking on his end and the very meek "yes". you can literally hear the cognitive dissonance breaking down in his head
Literally just heard that part as I'm reading your comment... Tims god is pulling tricks on me again XD
there is also always a delay with this call in system, so the pause may not really be as long as it seems. It's also why both sides often interrupt unintentionally whenever the person talking takes a breath or a pause at the end of a sentence
"How do you know that God exists?"
"Well... quantum..."
"Oh boy."
What in the Appropriated Hel does Nuka-fucking-Cola have to do with this?
That's when you know you're heading into quantum woo territory.
So, how did Christians know that god existed before quantum mechanics became a thing?
@@seand.g423 that made me fucking lol. Awesome.
@@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers
They didn't, they don't.
But that isnt relevant to the callers current position.
“God exists outside space and time” sounds eerily like “God exists nowhere and never”
Exactly, he exist outside of reality.....as in he is not real!!
@Frances Snowflake Unfortunately, we cannot know objective reality. In a sense, we all live in our own reality as far as I'm aware of it.
If God exists outside of space and time how can we be shaped in his image ?
Joe Mcghee something something spiritual image not physical image blah blah
Apologetics is easy when you can just make up any handwaivey BS you want to suit your worldview...like a distinction between objective and material reality
@@andyrihn1 As a catholic I was always taught that a main reason for mankind's " specialness " was our physical resemblance to our " creator ".
Holy shit its so great to see a father have enough respect for his kids to listen to them and not just talk them down and force ideas onto them. Well done Tim!
tbf doing that with someone who has aspergers is probably a bit more difficult :P but I agree... as the son said in the comments, it was his birthday present that the dad called the show. Freaking awesome of him.
Those kids of his are champs. They deserve something special for helping their dad out like this.
What do I get?
@@leotuber A like on the internet. here you go
@@rasaecnai I appreciate it!
The dad is the real champ here. This guy listened to his kids, did some research, and was able to change his mind.
What we got was to share our experience with all you folks here, and it IS special. Thanks everyone!
It’s amazing how much more willing Matt is to give someone time when they are decent about it. And knows how to have a real conversation.
Hey. Theists. THIS is how you have a productive conversation about beliefs.
Yeah but they were a little too harsh on him
Shut your worthless suck device.
@@jeffreyheil9542 what
R&om Matt Dillahunty is one of the most despicable debaters out there. Yeah, he’s awful convincing to a guy who isn’t strong in his faith. This dad was easily persuadable. Wasn’t even sure what he truly believed. So of course this was a “productive” conversation. Matt has a hard time keeping his worthless suck device shut when arguing with a knowledgeable theist that’s strong in their faith. Outspoken atheists like Matt are some of the most pathetic people out there.
@@jeffreyheil9542 sound kinda butthurt
Matt is really nice to people if they don't keep ignoring what he has said.
Lets give matt an exorcist priest role cause we love him so it's long overdue.
He sounds like an angry child. Its difficult to watch him.
@@chronicler2313 cry 😢
I'm crying right now. This is what we need. Empathy and love over faith. Pursuit of truth over pursuit of being right. OMG thank you to this father for being a real father.
Technically, truth is right. I would say "pursuit of truth over pursuit of faith"
@@katyungodly 99
one of the best callers. If only everyone had an open mind and was honest!
I really like this dad. he is calm, collected and honest, even if he doesn't agree
Everything he's saying is wrong though. It's amazing how much time he's spent believing in something that doesn't exist.
@@PortlandMan Proof that good and honest people really can just be misled without becoming dishonest in the process.
@@PortlandMan he’s wrong but he’s still a. Good dude. Sucks that he’s getting “duped” but with his studying he might eventually come into a new conclusion.
I'm Australian, and I remember when a media mogul of Australia (a billionaire), by the name of Kerry Packer, had a heart attack and died on 'the table'. When he was asked what he experienced when he was 'clinically dead', here's what he had to say about it:
"I’ve been to the other side, and let me tell you, son, there’s f*cking nothing there".
Pershaps for him...
@@ericscaillet2232 and for others?
@@ericscaillet2232 yeah maybe everyone bro... Sorry to say God doesn't exist
Hmm. I'm not convinced of his claim. In order to be fully dead you have to totally not come back at all. Jesus is the only One who defeated death and came back.
@MosesBad Doesn't your religion of evolution claim survival of the fittest and not focus on truth? Whatever God says on a very basic level is truth. God is not a man that he should lie and He Himself is not a liar not even capable of it. I think you're in denial not that you're unconvinced.
One thing for sure. He’s a good dad.
Yeah but his kids are assholes. 🤣
@TEAM XBOX indoctrination is more powerful than you realize. Billions of people are duped everyday by various tales of space daddy's. Doesnt mean this guy is dumb in fact he sounds pretty friggin intelligent. Kid's are assholes for setting up their dad for a verbal whipping by Matt.
@@Dontbustthecrust Are you sure the kids had that intention? Perhaps they wanted their father to be exposed to differing opinions that might have a positive impact on his life.
Considering that he was willing to do a lot of research and reading on the subject already, he could well be open to having a good and productive conversation.
He seems to be a rather intelligent person that has been very strongly indoctrinated. As such, perhaps his children are attempting to break through that indoctrination.
I suspect if I was his child I would be frustrated by his position, and would at least make some attempts to correct his epistemology.
Not like we can really know though because we only know the children through his words.
As a side note he seems to have a mind set that would like Pascal's wager. He can't demonstrate that God exists, but just in case God does exist, he should act like God exists.
In hind sight, it would have been nice to know what sort of God he believes actually exists. If it's some form of amorphous deism, does God, or a belief in him have any impact on his life? If It's a traditional Christian God, why can't we see regular and clear examples of God intervening in our daily lives. Or most likely some pseudo Christian thing saying religion is a flawed attempt to understand a God that doesn't interact with us.
I guess my fundamental question is, if something can or doesn't interact with us, how is it relevant in any way?
Yeet
What a great caller. Great dad and great person. If there's something out there he deserves it.
"God" know's, I am so happy that my dad was nothing like this guy Tim. Plankton!
@@ivanwalker3522 you’re lost
I don’t think y’all understand how scary it is to final admit to yourself that you don’t believe in something that’s SPECIFICALLY tells you if you don’t believe you are eternally tortured forever 😅. I think he already really wants to let go but he is hanging on by fear. Reminds me of exactly where i was at at one point.
I agree. I sometimes still get the "what if I'm wrong" thought. I get over it by remembering what matt said years ago. Something along the lines of "the God of the bible is a moral thug. If I've lived a good life and was kind to people and stand before god and he sends me to hell for simply not believing in him I would tell him he should've given clear signs. I can live that eternity knowing I have higher moral values then this so called god."
i still have the fear. it wont go away. it is not so much the fear of, what if i am wrong but rather just fear, indoctrinated fear. i realized that even following everything my church was teaching, i lived in constant fear and felt never really safe from hell or from god s wrath or the like. then i was attacked in the streets and realized that god did not protect me even though i devoted my entire time to god. so this gave me even more fear. so in the end, with church attendence i lived a life of fear, i realized, so without it, what could get worse? i still have the fear, it is difficult to shake it off, but at least i have my time for myself now, for catching up with education etc. instead of spending all my days in praying and praises constantly. i was anazed about the amounts of time i suddenly had at my hands. i hope the fear will go some day, and i envy those who grew up secular and without fear indoctrination. maybe it just takes the body a while to grasp that, yes, no lightning will struck you for blaspheming. i remember an orthodox jew turned atheist, who said that he spent an hour in excruciating fear of an actual lighning striking him dead when he dared for the first time in his life to turn a button or flip a switch on a sabbath. he said he sat there in full expectation of being killed any moment, tortured by agonizing fear for about an hour but nothing happened. when he realized that nothing happened, his body slowly adjusted, and finally the fear went away.
@@miotch8225 I'm in the same place. Growing up having that drilled into you, and not only having everyone around you police your thoughts, but being educated in a way that forces your brain to police it's self. Escaping that mentality, but always being plagued by the feeling that even though it doesn't logically add up, God is real and therefore so is Hell, is pretty difficult to deal with. A lot of people find it easier to just ignore the logical problems and continue on with life.
@@hermione3muller674 that must be tough. I was a Christian until I was 12. Even as a Christian I couldn't bring myself to believe in angels, demons, the devil or hell. It always seemed ridiculously absurd to me. I'm sure it helped make it easier for me to leave the church
What a disconnect though. Anyone who tortures anyone is not a good person, good god, or good anything. How hard is that?
You can almost hear this caller’s heart break around 23:00 when he realizes he’s not justified in his belief.
2 Tone Tony - Yah....at 24:00 his mind was blown.
I felt so bad for him 😢
@@saraha6571 - indeed, it hurts going down at first, but man, it’s such good medicine for him in the long run.
Yea it's kinda tough to listen to, but if he decides to leave christianity because of it, it was well worth the hearthbreak
Yeah, we all know the caller is desperately reaching...but for some people it is terrifying to confront the truth.
It is terrifying. Once I confronted what no god meant it was pretty upsetting. No eternal paradise, no reuniting with departed loved ones and knowing once this life is over, it's over. It's a lot to take in.
it is a proces... he is on the right path...
S Iam - "Once I confronted what no god meant it was pretty upsetting. No eternal paradise, no reuniting with departed loved ones and knowing once this life is over, it's over."
I was raised in a small-ish California town in an environment of Christian beliefs of several stripes & flavors all around me… still I managed to deflect the nonsense of it all. Never could understand why the silliness of the "eternal paradise & reuniting with departed loved ones" claims weren't as easy to shrug off by the time of one's adolescence as it was to let go of the claim for the existence of Santa Claus years earlier.
As for "once this life is over, it's over"… why this is perceived as "bad news" is particularly baffling to me. Once the transition from having existed to no longer existing has occurred, it can only be knowable and something to have "feelings" about by people who continue to exist… meaning it is impossible for you to care or even KNOW you no longer exist (the very definition of not existing). On the other hand, eternal existence is the most unnatural thing i can imagine and a completely terrifying concept. it would almost certainly lead to insanity for which there would NEVER be any relief… and NEVER is a mighty LONG TIME. All living organisms have a lifespan… it's as natural as can be.
@@Robert44444444 well not everybody looks at it that way but I'm glad you have made peace with it.
Yes, i'd go as far as to say most likely VERY few people view the end of this life in a similar way… but it is dispassionately logical. Our anxiety and/or fear of death is almost certainly based in the uncertainty about the myriad claims for what's on the "other side"… but being sad or finding it disheartening that we will not survive our physical death to carry on is something we can only experience while we are here. We don't concern ourselves with what we were up to during the eons of time before we were born, we have no non-superstitious reason to think we will "exist" to be concerned about why we no longer exist (if you know what I mean). It comes down to whether you view the world through a lens of emotion & superstition, or whether you choose logic & reason to shape your outlook.
Only about 5 minutes in and I can say, he'll of a good parent. Nobody's perfect, but he was able to tell his child that they were right and he was wrong about something fundamental to his worldview. Mad respect.
"I don't think I like your example."
"Of course, you don't. That's why I picked it."
Summary of what happens, when you try to shine a light on a irrational position.
...
I wouldn't pick an example based off whether or not they like it. I'd pick it based off whether or not it's efficacious (which isn't necessarily correlated with whether they like it).
@@mikebasketball11 I think that is Matt's point.
@@Steelmage99 No, not really actually. He picked one because he didn't like it. But anyway, I see what Matt meant, but taking this in isolation is a little ambiguous. All the best.
This is one of my all time favorite calls
Same. There was patience on both ends of the line and respect all around. The willingness to learn from Tim and excellent and easy to follow deconstructions of hard to grasp concepts from Matt and Jim all together was top notch.
What are the others?
@Hillary's emails to Lorne sure he babbled a bit, but he was honest enough to listen to the evidence and accept the conclusion. Given time he'll let it go
Victor Anni
One video I think is worth watching is the one titled:
“How can anyone be an atheist”; Manda calling from Lynchburg, VA. Video is dated 03/14/2018 from episode 22.09
I also place this as one of the best interactions.
The respect and listening to one another was great.
Yes, Tim did have some barriers he could not address during the call on the moment. But, I suspect upon listening to it after and reflecting upon it - maybe with discussion including kids ... He will make progress with those barriers. At least to realize how the beliefs he holds are not held for rational reasons.
If you read this, good job Tim - you have critically looked at what you grew up believing, that is difficult. You treated the positions of your children with respect when they conflicted with yours.
On the Axp side - they kept things going and because he was respectful it allowed the call to move forward and be respectful and kind.
A great example of a call to show a theist wondering about calling.
Toss in a example of what turns a call into non-productive as a don't and it is almost a quickie guide.
Matt really gave Tim more time than usual.
He deserved it, even being a theist he was willing to have a conversation. People like that are worth talking to.
Jon Leach
I haven’t seen Matt return respect 99% of the time he received it. The guy is junky for choosing to be annoyed and then throwing a tantrum. He gets more views from it.
Flip Wright -Tim was not a chode, as most callers are.
Jon Leach
🤣
What a silly question!
Why in the name of randomness would you ask that?! Are you suggesting I’m a Muslim?!
@@Badle-fw6fw His point was that people earn respect not only by showing respect but also how they think and act. (You could be talking to a respectful Nazi, does that mean you should show respect back). Also matt probably gets annoyed and stops showing respect because either he already sees where the caller is going and it's not a good case or the caller is being difficult.
Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?" - Douglas Adams.
This was a really good episode. Kudos to hosts and the caller. Very collaborative!
They should of stopped him much sooner. babbling on and on about utter nonsense.
I'm really glad they let him go for as long as he did. It gave a rare insight into the interwoven complexities of theology. Traditionally the show picks apart the beliefs, arguments and facts one by one step by step. I think it is beneficial to listen to multiple flawed aspects of belief in one pontification.
"Collaborative." Good descriptor.
I know this caller understands and more than likely agrees with Matt, but like Matt said his own brain is stopping him from admitting it. This caller does not sound stupid.
Ignorance is not just what you don't know, it is also what you won't know.
- AronRa
Great call.
@25:46 -- Quick note, just as a reminder for clarification; the scientific process does not(or at least, should not) attempt to explain that a given hypothesis is true but rather attempts to falsify that hypothesis. If, in the attempts to falsify it, the hypothesis stands unhindered after sufficient experimentation, we may then consider it a viable theory. A theory, of course, may still be falsifiable in the future given new experimentation resultant from a greater understanding. It is this process of falsification, using established facts(theories which have remained unhindered after overwhelming experimentation), that helps to eliminate such things as confirmation bias. We do not do testing to 'confirm' a hypothesis, but rather test to eliminate a hypothesis as a viable explanation for an observation. Only when a hypothesis cannot be eliminated are we left with undeniable confirmation. So, confirmation is not the goal but rather the consequence of experimentation. I believe this distinction is of paramount importance as it fundamentally distinguishes science from belief.
Well said sir
this is why the way p-value is defined is so confusing because it's defined around a null hypothesis rather a "positive" hypothesis. it's very counter-intuitive to our nature to confirm our assumptions. when in fact, we should seek to disprove them because a confirmed assumptions could still have contradicting evidence and we can never claim to have absolute knowledge of everything. to the contrary, contradicting evidence disproves our assumptions quite absolutely.
😍😍😍😍
Well explained, the scientific method is rarely well understood out side of science.
The rare kind of call that just wants to talk, not preach.
I was born Catholic and then my parents converted me to Evangelism. At the age of 13/14 I started to doubt and became eventually an Atheist. It was a hard journey and I feel for Tim. What a great dad and I have so much respect for him calling in. I hope he just never stops exploring.
Nobody is "born Catholic".
Regardless of Tim's view on the world or god, he is a great father. Hats off to you sir.
Fear is a strong primal instinct, it makes people think and behave in irrational and unreasonable ways.
Tim has one foot out side of the box of belief, the strongest thing stopping him from taking the next step, is fear, the fear of what God will do to him if he dares to think heretical thoughts.
Remember, for Tim thought crime is real, and punishable with eternal suffering.
Everything Tim is using to stay his wavering confidence in a God is failing, he is unable to find any arguments that can withstand logic refutation, and every time his arguments fail, another brick is knocked out of the pillar of his belief.
The effect of this instability is a magnification of religious fear.
The more bricks that loosen and fall the more thinking Tim is forced to do, and the more thinking Tim does, the more instances of thought crime Tim is forced to commit.
And for Tim God will exact his revenge on him.
What a Terrifying way to live life.
Badger bush I really like your comment man. You took an empathetic approach. I see so many people calling theists dumb or just making fun of THEM in addition to their beliefs which irritates me since I have very religious parents who are reasonable in every other aspect of life. But because they and most other theists have had these psychological tactics used on them since birth, they will not even question their religion because like you said, it’s fear of being separated from family or being tortured forever. These tactics control so many great people’s lives and I feel legitimate sadness when I think about that.
Tyvonix72
I can relate to that.
I myself, am surrounded by friends and family, all of them believers, I don't have a single friend who not a believer.
Luckily we are a close family, we all get along for the most part, accept on the topic of religion.
I don't ever bring the subject up, but when it does arise, i am more then willing to have the conversation.
I've devoted quite some time to the studying of the bible.
The one thing I have noticed in my conversions with those who profess an unbreakable faith is.
The majority have never read the bible, not in its entirety, or even in part for that matter.
And yet they hold it up as the evidence that is the foundation of there belief.
Most people have a kind of, patched together fairytale version of the bible in there minds, a version that is at odds with what is to be found between the pages.
My bother and i were talking, and i asked
"Is slavery wrong?"
He replied
"Yes"
I went on to show him where in the bible God condones slavery and even lays out the frame work for slaves and how they are to be treated.
He sat there wrestling the moral conflict of an all good God who is pro slavery for a moment.
And then he went on to argue that the slavery in the bible must be some sort of moral slavery.
I went on to show him where God says you can beat your slaves and even beat them to death and it's not even considered a sin to do so by God.
He simply could not acknowledge what was right in front of him.
He insisted it must be some how a justifiable moral slavery.
His unquestioning faith had now lead him to defend the owning of humans as property, and the beating to death of these individuals be they man, women or child, without punishment.
And all commanded by an all good God.
Smile Face
Thank you. :)
But think how wonderful the relief will be once he's finally able to free his mind from its religious shackles.
Badger bush - very true. I also see it as a fear of the unknown - if my beliefs are wrong/can be proven to be wrong, then what is the truth? I don't know! At this point, if I accept that my beliefs are wrong, then what lies ahead of me is unknown territory. I have comfort to keep my beliefs as they are, even if they are not true, and avoid the discomfort of 'not knowing' the truth.
I also see Tim's dilemma as fear of being wrong. Admitting that one was mistaken, one's core beliefs about life (which began for him, he said, when he was still in diapers) held for decades, were all nothing but lies and not truth - quite disturbing to face and the fear comes from deep in the psyche.
This Dad is amazing. Regardless of his beliefs I have so much respect for him for at least trying to understand his kids regardless of his strong beliefs.
If "god exists outside time", then at no time does god exist.
If "god exists outside space", then god doesn't exist anywhere.
@Frances Snowflake where do abstractions exist?
@Frances Snowflake I didn't ask where they don't exist, where do they exist?
@Frances Snowflake which reality do they exist in then?
And it's not amusing to assert a god , yet it's unfalsifiable.
Did you even watch the video ? or any of these videos at all when they explain the atheist position ?
What a fantastic person Tim is. The moment where his son wept was beautiful.
Timestamp!
29:45 - - "...how prone we are to misunderstanding statistics."
Or as my father would say: "Statistics don't lie, but liars do statistics."
I love that quote!
My mom often quotes a similar saying: "If you torture data sufficiently, it will confess to almost anything."
Statistics can "lie," because humans are the ones who "counted" something. All statistics are socially constructed, because humans make choices about what and how to count something. To some extent, all statistics are, at a minimum, somewhat misleading (and that's the best case scenario.)
@@RCPoliComm ok but the statistics aren't lying, the human is lying about the statistics
@@redners11 That's a distinction without a difference. Statistics are not just "out there" waiting to be discovered, like some kind of chemical reaction or how we calculate circumference or something. All statistics are created by humans; that true by definition of the very concept. That's the point. You seem to be missing that point, I think?
Statistics are not like scientific truths just waiting to be discovered, like the speed of light or how fast objects fall. Statistics are not like physics or chemistry, or even math (statistics are incredibly different than math, even though math is used to calculate them.)
Do you see what I mean?
I saw religion split families choosing religion over family is a grave mistake. Glad to see the father truly looking into things for the sake of his children.
hands down, the most honest theist ive ever heard on this show period.
Is faith a reasonable path to truth. 404 file not found
You’re confusing ‘faith’ with the idea of having faith, and belief with sound evidence THE PEOPLE SING. Faith in the biblical sense means belief contrary to sound evidence.
Somethings just ring true to me. It's not reasonable, but intuition can be all l have to go on. God is someone else's concept and not my own. Therefore I have to follow my own path and not theirs.
You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.
It is a difficult thing to not know what is true and have to rely on Dillahunty, Ra, and co for reality and truth when they have believed differently in the past and would have told you back then that a different truth/reality was true/real.
Tommy Harring truth? Which truth, the 2000 year old book that is full of claims with no evidence or the five major branches of the Christian faith, or Islam, Judaism, the Ancient Greek, Roman, Norse or Egyptian pantheons? Or any other deity humans created, believed in and worshipped for millennia?
Or this truth..?
the quality or state of being true.
that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.
a fact that is accepted as true.
I know which truth I accept, and it isn’t found in a two millennia old book.
Of course not. Faith is believing something is true without proof (a postulate). Faith is hoping (child-like thinking) something is true, despite all evidence to the contrary or worse yet, no evidence at all. Now, the question, is this how a reasonable person arrives at a truth? In my opinion, a reasonable does not rely on faith to arrive at a truth. Therefore, a reasonable person would not reject evolution because it has been proven to happen, which means beyond a doubt.
Touching video. As a father of three precious children, struggling with some of the same issues, I found this to be profoundly valuable. Thank you guys.
It brought tears to me eyes when he said his son started crying.
Props to this caller. At least he's honest, even if he's honestly mistaken.
If he were honest, he would've directly answered the question about the reliability of faith as a path to truth. I'll grant that he was more honest than most theist callers.
Damn this was a great show the caller is a stand up guy for being genuine .
This is one of the greatest call ever IMO.. great dad and great kids.
Existing "outside of space and time" sounds like a synonym for not existing if you ask me.
Yup, existing in no space for no time = doesn't exist
I love that he says "Yes, of course" like it's a totally normal thing for a dad to do something just to make their kids happy even if it's potentially embarassing. Great dad indeed. :)
I love when callers are receptive enough and allow the dialogue to open up like this... Probably one of the best episodes I've ever watched
I have been where Tim is currently. It's a very difficult place to be in. But, he seems to be open to have his mind and positions changed. And that is such an important thing!
This was a breath of fresh air from the typical callers.
This was an awesome call. I loved how his children urged him to call and that he did it and showed genuine interest in a productive conversation. What a fantastic way to start the show!
There’s no way that baby/toddler story from around 15:00 onwards is true. Children have a pretty good concept of language by the time they’re one or two years old. But, they definitely do not have the kind of awareness that makes them go “Oh, I’m part of this big thing”. That type of consciousness doesn’t develop until the age of 4-6 years. So, he may think that’s a memory he has, but it’s a bogus story.
Fake memories are a thing, and the hosts should have said it
You can't say that because everyone is different for instance my sister told me theirs no way I remembered the things I remember from when I was below 2 years of age but yet I was able to describe to her in detail the house we moved out of long before my 2nd birthday or even talk, how could I make up exactly what was fact
@@bacicinvatteneaca They could have called out the probability of a false memory, but it wouldn't have been relevant. It was a memory of an experience of feeling like he was a part of some greater whole outside of himself. Even if it happened to him 2 days ago, what would it demonstrate exactly? Not much point in debunking a detail of some weak experiential argument.
William McConville It is entirely possible that you have reconstructed that memory, the idea of your house at 2. In fact, it is the more scientifically likely option. It is increadibly rare for events before the age of 3-5 to be remembered because they simply aren’t usually that important. Traumatic experiences aside most memories at 2 aren’t interesting or fundamental in any way other than building the brain up to eventually being able to remember more. The most likely cause of your memory is from hearing people talk about the house and you constructing those pictures into a false memory, this is in line with what we know. Most memories are partly false. Each and every time you remember something you have to do a little work in reconstructing it, you may add a detail here, remove one there, and eventually the memory is really similar but very different. Maybe you once remembered that the house had white walls but now you think it had sky blue walls. This happens to everyone and is the norm.
@ so his early childhood memory is just as valid as any other memory he has, since all memory is an imperfect construction? his memory of that house may be as accurate as the memory of his house from when he was 6. and you can have memories from before 3, but the caller was talking about remembering his coming to a deeper understanding of his place in the universe at that age, which is highly unlikely if at all possible...
Tim has such a beautiful spirit to do that for his son! The way he choked up about judging his son had me slinging snot and tears! Most religious parents just disown you and throw you to the wolves! Tim is a rock star dad!!😢🤧👏👏👏👏👏
I reacted the same way and he has a beautiful spirit (if there are such things). Seems like a great dad.
Hearing the love for his child was more important than everything else is the best part I wish more parents had that view
He is taking family over his tribe.
Man! When Tim was at the point of admitting the fact that faith is an unreliable path to truth, he just couldn't do it. It was like trying to force two magnets' like poles together. He'd slip off to some comment about "science" or some such that had nothing to do with the point being discussed. Now THAT'S a brain that is so severely in denial, it can't respond to a simple yes/no question. Kudos to Matt for explaining exactly what was happening, and even after doing so, I still think Tim was still in denial. Just 'wow.'
That's the power of belief. They become so deeply entrenched in a person's psyche, that when challenged to the point of collapse, the brain puts up barriers to prevent the loss of that belief, because to lose that belief would result in a huge loss of meaning to that person. It does seem that Tim is at least prepared to engage in a meaningful discussion about his faith, and I wish him all the best as he begins his journey towards a rational future
My family is the same way sadly they just say "I believe what I believe and that's that." Yet they can't seem to explain a simple verse in bible like how the hell a man lived in a giant fish or a guy walked on water and how his body launched literally into space.
@@johnmason9045 I agree. I think it also has a lot to do with ego; they've invested so much time, energy, money and public commitment that to change their minds would be practically as bad as dying. If there's one thing humans don't like to do, it's dying. De-conversion can take years - let us pray that Tim has begun his journey out of his self-imposed delusions.
;-)
That is the best metaphor for that that I have heard in my entire life. Thank you. I love it.
It's like playing a game of Jenga and being forced to pull out a piece from the bottom. The whole belief structure collapses, and it takes time an effort to build a new and hopefully sturdier one.
Next time: If faith is an unreliable path to truth, why do preachers keep praising faith as a virtue and condemning doubt as a sin? Hint: Atheists don't pay tithes.
I think you guys are doing a great job, especially when you have calls like this one. I listen almost daily and look forward to the day I have the opportunity to call, a topic to discuss, and the ability to overcome my stage freight, all at the same time. Keep up the good work!
I love this discourse.
Matt: "a+b=c, correct?
Caller: "correct"
Matt: "so c-b=a, correct?"
*crickets*
Caller: "I don't understand lemme redirect this waaaaaay off course-"
Matt: "oh ffs!"
It's like trying to teach a goldfish cursive writing.
Csyk a+b=c depending on the values of the variables
@@jakecostanza802 i think you miss the point. Maybe I'm wrong. What do you mean?
@@foolapprentice3321 he does
@@jakecostanza802 A Petersonian response….🤪
To his kids. You’re dad did well. You should be proud. He’s getting there.
@JG Unfortunately the only personal experience that has any logical proof is that the individual having it exists to have it.
@JG Everybody else as a personal experience only persuades the individual having it.
God may exist but I see an empty room.
I know I exist and that is it as an absolutely true statement.
Everything else has a burden of proof to persuade me.
The best after I exist is testing, experimentation or let’s simplify it “checking” which is called Science. Or Knowledge.
Could all be wrong but more reliable than any other route to truth (just checking).
To see if something is real, test it.
There is a way in which all religions are on equal footing. They are all make believe.
BRUHHH
George Steele well said
George Steele Type this in in the you tube search box " the devil's bible predicted September 11 over 700 years ago" the video last 9:13 the channel is titled leak project.
Yes the religion of evolution one of them. That is still popular among the deceived.
@@lightbeing8174 I hope it's not stupid... If it is then I will figuratively slap you
What a top Dad. Crazy, mixed up but a top Dad.
A fundamentalist dad who gave his son the benefit of the doubt and listened to him? I'm very impressed
I appreciate that this man took time for his son rather than brush it off. That is what a good father is like.
I assume magic pixies are behind the universe. I knew it from a child when Santa once told me that, but I had always had it in my heart.
Philip Leitch Man, I gotta get in on this. Have you written a book yet? Who do I need to start hating? I wanna get a head start on this religion. I’ll start going door to door tomorrow to spread the good word. Just let me know who’s not allowed in & we’re all set 😉
Lol I love how these conversations turn into a critical thinking lecture lol
One of my favourite calls indeed. Thank you guys for the service to humanity.
This was one of the best conversations I've heard so far. Haven't heard all of em yet but I certainly hope there's more like this!
Hats off to the “ Dad “
I respect you Sir
Its not easy, doing what you did
It tells me that you really do love your kids in a Non Selfish way
That is, not as “your kids” but as separate Living creatures
You are almost there
I am an Atheist
But guys, i think you were too hard on the Dude
He’s trying
He’s stumbling, but is atleast Genuinine
He was great. I understand his compulsion to hang on to theism despite the inconsistencies in all the religions he researched. He is definitely working through his thoughts and his belief and i hope he becomes a theistic apologist or something someday. It would be great to see more dialogue like this
why is "dad" and "your kids" in quotes?
Yeah, Matt should be a little bit more sensitive at times, especially to callers like Tim
Finally, someone that can have a conversation. Well done all around.
Coming from a person who’s religious mother’s response to my questioning her beliefs at 22 was flipping a table, breaking my nose, and beating me with a chair I really admire this man and his willingness to listen to his kids and think critically. He’s trying and he’s willing to listen and that warms my heart that he loves and respects his kids enough to at least try to understand.
Wtf, that sounds horrible, what kinda borked religion did she follow??
Christianity
@@pookiluki wow what a holy lady who totally must have been a great Christian, even if she was less so a great person
This guy is probably one of the best callers there's been.
I think this is the longest conversation Matt has had where he didn't drop the F bomb, lol. Kudos to both Matt and Tim.
13:09 he couldn't help himself. XD
König der Welt Well f*ck me! I stand corrected. You have a sharp ear:-)
edd, matt did let one out
Uh oh. Watch out for those magic words!!!
I wish he wouldn't use the f bomb, because many radicalized conservative Christians will never here what he has to say because they can't get passed profanity. They are as afraid of profanity almost as much as they fear God. God speaks things into existence so to them words have special powers. God is the word.
I worked in critical care. Dead is dead. I've done more CPR than anyone I know. Sometimes it is successful, sometimes it is not no matter how hard you try or how hopeful you are in the attempt. I lost people I loved dearly. It was their time and no amount of medical attention we knew of changed that fact. It makes me cry to this day. You cannot save them all.
I don't believe in an afterlife but you didn't explain your reasoning for saying dead is dead. Did some of them come back and say "I saw nothing, I was just unconscious and there was nothingness"?
@@lachousalle31 I had a friend that OD'd and died a few minutes and then was in a coma for a week.... when he woke up he was asked what if anything he experienced.... he said blackness until he woke.... so my theory was his brain was so drugged up... his brain could not protect itself with the visions and euphoria that most of the NDE people claim to see...
@@lachousalle31 no then they wouldn't be dead...
What..?
I don't think that one actually can have a coherent memory prior to the formation of language -- so his "memory" of walking out in diapers, seeing the sky - not knowing what it is, not yet having language, but nevertheless having a sense of the existence of God, is almost certainly a "constructed memory" formed much later in life and projected backward.
To both of you: Sounds reasonable. It strikes me as not-too-credible when someone claims to have memories _as specific as_ "walking in diapers" and "seeing the sky" from before having acquired language, the reason being that the _concepts_ of "walking", "diapers", "seeing" and "sky" are simply not known at that stage. I suspect that sensorial / experiential memories from such an early stage of life might survive, but they would have beeen stored without their conceptual meaning, or, as you put it: not as coherent memories.
As a personal sidenote though, I remember having had the experience, when I was very young (before I had acquired language), of _recognizing_ certain music (which my mother played on a tape recorder), from what *felt* as an earlier stage of life, which I described (once I HAD acquired language) as something that I remembered having heard when I still was "on the other side". THAT memory ITSELF has long vanished, but I DO remember the remembering...
@Feiner Fug "can anyone explain the rather incoherent mess I made when pasting "prodprod" on my first reply?" I can't explain it, but I sometimes experience something similar in the subject field when I send email. It is as if Windows has a number of clipboards (not just one), any of which it can use, depending on which one is selected via mouse-scroll...
A moss-covered tuff wall...? Was/were there any feeling(s) attached to the memory? Iow do you feel that it had some meaning to you, or do you have the impression that it could be related to an event that had or must have had a special significance to you? Was the image a representation of a real (existing) wall, or do you estimate that it was an artificial memory (as far as you can remember)? I have f.i. a memory (this one IS still faintly accessible) of what I would now describe as "being in a sortof boiling liquid", and which cannot be a memory of a real event. It HAS feelings attached to it though.
@Feiner Fug I would argue that if you "remember remembering it," then the memory is most likely created. I have a memory that is just a fuzzy image of a house from the perspective of a small child (likely about 1 yr old, give or take a few months) sitting on a blanket on a sunny day. I have described the house to my mother and she said it sounds like the house our family lived in before my parents divorced, which happened when I was about 18 months old.
The most likely scenario for me is that I have constructed this "memory" from years of hearing about this house that I have no memory of ever being inside. It feels like a real memory, but knowing how much our memories cannot be trusted, I can never claim that it is a true memory. I will never really know for sure if it is or not, but I would never go around telling people about this memory as if it were absolutely 100% authentic, as Tim did in this call. That is a claim that he just cannot back up and is a rather silly one to make.
@Feiner Fug yes, I have heard it said that we are remembering the last time we remembered it, not the original event. You can watch a memory change right before your eyes. I have had someone tell me a story, then listen to them tell the same story to someone else later on and notice a few detail changes from the version that was told to me earlier. It happens that fast.
It is really apparent how bad our memories are when you see programs where they have something happen in front of a group of people, then interview the people about what happened. Their recall will be all over the place. This is why eye witness testimony is the worst evidence you can have in a criminal case. It should never be trusted unless you have multiple people telling very similar stories independently. Even then, you cannot trust the specific details, but you can assume that the basic core of the story is likely to be true.
You have to take everyone's stories with a huge grain of salt and always fact check them before passing them off as true.
@@Karamarika "I have had someone tell me a story, then listen to them tell the same story to someone else later on and notice a few detail changes from the version that was told to me earlier." How do you know the changes were in your memory, rather than their telling? Was this a written story that they were reading word for word? I mean, I have very often heard people "quote" movies and completely mess up the quote. Being familiar with the source (and being able to view it again), I know that it's their retelling that is wrong, not my memory of the movie.
This is soooo refreshing to hear
Best call I think I've ever heard and the best of Matt in dealing with a caller
Great video, Matt covered so many important points Hes so effective at navigating through these conversations.
Best show I've seen so far. I hope you helped that guy
This was so heartwarming. I wish more Christians were like this dad. I was just like him when I started deconstructing. It hurt me, but like they say "the truth hurts" and I accepted it. Now I'm free from the poison that is religion.
Kudos to the dad he was very respectable and i wish him the best. And good on everyone involved for being respectful period this was definitely the best call I've seen so far in terms of actual progressive discussion because it is my guilty pleasure to see callers get destroyed lol but i didn't wish that on this man
Yeah, this was the best call we're _likely_ to see... and that's the fucking tragedy of it.
Matt's genius is that he's able to filter complex thoughts into something simple enough for the layman to comprehend. I have no doubt he can get technical, but fact that he's extremely knowledgeable yet able to piecemeal his POV at almost anyone level is just amazing.
WOW. Matt is incredible in this conversation. This is razor sharp.
Totally agree. Matt didn't miss a beat when he sensed Tim needed direction and was super patient. Showed why he does this for a living in this call for sure.
Well this guy just made my list of Top 5 favorite callers.
That was a really good one! I hope Tim keeps exploring and calls back!
What a great call! That was a real genuine conversation with Tim, I think, fighting real demons about his faith. Matt really is a linguistic wizard and I wish Tim all the best and I hope he comes to a reasonable conclusion eventually.
Both hosts were absolutely fantastic here. Early on you both identified the situation as a parent trying to understand their child. Further the caller is clearly in the midst of making that hard philosophical leap out of hardcore evangelical fundamental Christianity. Both hosts made points to help him with the correct logical arguments to apply and additional learning materials which I think is great. I felt it when he said all religions are the same, I can recall that stage of my bout with faith. It's hard to accept that we might be all alone on this rock drifting through space. The caller did also hint he had felt what I felt when I came full circle to atheism, it's your outlook that changes. You want to help better life for everyone around you because this life we are living is probably all we got. Sorry for the ramble. Great show!
someone get this man Tim a medal!! I have never heard such a rational minded theistic person interviewed, that I so completely relate to and sympathize with. thank you tim!