SIGNAL POSITIONS at Chadwick Model Railway | 199.
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- The track laying and wiring is almost complete on the Branch Line boards.
While I still have access underneath, I need to run the cables for the signals.
However, I first need to decide which signals are best suited.
Join me in this video, as I run through my options and the theory behind those choices, in
Chadwick Model Railway 199.
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Hi Charlie. Train driver here. Section 2.3 in the RSSB Handbook RS521, Signals, Handsignals, Indicators and Signs states the following:
“Junction indicators are provided to show that a train is being signalled to a route to the left or right of the straight route.
When the straight route is obvious, there is normally no junction indicator provided for this route.
Where there is no obvious straight route, a junction indicator will be provided for all signalled routes.
Where the straight route is not the highest-speed route, the junction indicator will normally apply to the lower-speed route.
Where the diverging routes ahead are both of equal speed, a junction indicator will be provided for each route.”
An absolute epic quote Phil, and one of which I’m most grateful. Regards, Charlie
Yes although technically correct this is based on modem signalling practices. Back in the 60/70 and early 80s the approach was different
@@Llamberg.RailwayAs I was too young to work in the 70s and 80’s, unfortunately I can only go by what I know but thanks for the historical context.
Hi Charlie I’m an active train driver regarding ground position light signals displaying yellow aspect these are stop signals applying to movements in the direction to which the signal can be cleared other movements can pass the signal without it being cleared therefore the signal showing a yellow aspect and a white aspect the movement is cleared for the shunt neck when the same signal shows 2 white lights at 45 degrees the movement is cleared for mainline however this will also mean that the train needs to be able to stop at the next main aspect signal or it’s coming on top of another train the type of signal you need is a yellow and white light both lit and when the signal is changed the yellow light goes out and shows 2 white lights at 45 degrees hope this helps I’ve got photos in my rule book don’t think I can add the to the comments.
Thanks Mark, I fully understand that.
However, coming in from the mainline you will pass the unlit side of the signal. I’m wondering what the signal might show and does it matter anyway.
Regards Charlie
Dare I ask for a blooper reel appended to video 200?
Rest assured , I have a few to add in! Regards, Charlie
Bloopers, out-takes etc from early days (if you have them still) and an extended running session would be my vote!
You’re bang on the money, GD. Regards, Charlie
Charlie, many congratulations on your upcoming 200th. There’s hardly been one I haven’t learnt something from, so much thanks for all your hard work.
Lawd, if you’re struggling with wiring there’s no hope for me!
And as for giving priority to local passenger services over freight trains, are you absolutely sure you spent time trainspotting at Swindon 50 odd years ago?
Thanks TB, I’m so pleased that you’re enjoying the journey. I look back on my train spotting days, and so wish that I could have them back. There was so much detail that I ignored and now I desperately seek. Coach configurations, loco colour schemes, even the dates when I logged them, all gone!
Regards Charlie
I feel exactly the same charlie ...great site too 😅
One mates a driver, one’s a signalman, they never agree and as a result for ages my signals were placed with blue tack as one or the other would move them! Now I put them where I think looks right. 😂
I used to be a driver on district and met lines i remember signalmen at barking and baker st were lets just say (in the nicest possible way) a pain in the ar%e 😄
You've made awesome progress here. And you're actually making modern signalling make sense to a steam era modeller 😅
But Dapol has made junction signals in both upper and lower quadrant so that option is available :)
Thanks GW but I can’t find them on their website. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway They are quite elusive. I'm just starting my signals so have been looking out for them. Darn expensive so might have to be an alternative!
Charlie, congratulations on reaching 200. It seems like only yesterday you were trying to figure out how Tortoise switch machines works, with that box of 20 in your living room.
Thanks Earl, yes time certainly does fly at our age! Regards, Charlie
G'day Charlie, Thank you for your informative videos and congratulations on your 200th video. Your content is always helpful and i look forward to every new video you release . My modeling is based on queensland railways here down under in Australia. I worked for QR when i was 15 years old as a bridge nipper until i left qr aged 23 but have many fond memories. I am now a retired 61 year old and have embraced our magnificent hobby now that i have spare time. My lovely wife Jenny seems ok with this until the hair dryer or hair spray makes its way into the train shed and i have forgotten to return them. Anyway Charlie please keep up the high standzrds that you produce. Cheers from Graeme from downunder.
Thanks Graeme, it’s great to have you on board mate. Regards, Charlie
Hey Charlie, The feather usually follows the diverging branch of the point because when the feather is not illuminated when the highest speed route is indicated. So if you have a left hand point, you would use a left hand feather. Right hand point, use a right hand feather. Looking at 1:56 the problem is with your track, you are using right hand points to send the mainline down the diverging line, I think normally using a left hand point to branch off to the station and allowed the mainline to continue straight at higher speeds with it then curving off to the right. With your viaduct though that probably wouldn't have fit. I think the solution you want here is to put a speed restriction on the viaduct side before the points, making both the mainline and the branch line the same or similar speeds at that junction, then use both left and right junction indicators on the signal. When the route is into the station, you would illuminate the left feather, when the route is on the main line, you would illuminate the right feather. There are best practices but things are taken on a site specific basis usually. On another note, I think down line signals are usually odd numbered and the up line are even numbered. Its looking good though!
Thanks Oorail, what a great solution.
Regards Charlie
If the curved line is the mainline then the feather has to be for the straight line coming out of the point. So for a right-hand point the feather would point to the left.
But in this case the station is the diverging route. Going by what I was taught as a mainline driver
Also, your point about the points is incorrect. For example, I sign from Ipswich to Peterborough. At Ely the line diverges to the left (at least to the eye of a non railwayman) and the other line goes straight on to Kings Lynn. But it's the king's Lynn line that has the junction indicator. If turning left at Ely north towards Peterborough you get no indication at all, just a main aspect.
That’s very interesting, David. Are the two lines, the same speed, or is the main line faster? Regards, Charlie
Yellow/white ground position signal -
You can pass these in the on position as long as the line is set for the route that the signal cant clear.
Meaning you can pass the signal in the on position as long as the points are set into the headshunt.
For going out onto the mainline, you have to obey that signal in the normal manner.
As for route indicators, they are normally for a lesser route, you usually have the main aspect for the more ‘important’ /faster route
Thanks E. 1992, much appreciated. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, first of all let me say that by no means am I an expert on signals but, looking at your starter signals leaving the platforms I think you may need a theatre on the platform 1 signal indication U (up) or D (down). I say this because trains enter the station on the UP line, and if leaving from 1 it will need to cross over to the DOWN. A straight green light may give the driver an indication he was departing back to the UP line.
That’s an interesting observation, but I haven’t found an example of it in reality. Regards, Charlie
I had no plans to add signaling to my below-grade Dutch passenger line and station...but I might reconsider, provided I can get them in N-scale in the US (Phildie might be an option).
I always think they’re worthy addition. Regards, Charlie
Your dedication to authenticity is admirable! The operational complexity boggles the minds of those of us who just had figures of eight in the early 1960s.
Every day is a school day, Michael, even when you were our age! Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie,
Re: the gpls for the headshunt. They were identical to the normal ones, but instead of a red they have a yellow aspect. This would be placed before the headshunt points and control all movements.. with a white/yellow indication (on), the train can use the headshunt. When cleared to 2 whites, the train accesses the main line you don't need a main aspect. Also, your station starters will need to be 3 aspects, as you cannot go from a green to a red, if the junction is not cleared from the branch station.
On the inbound signal, yellow with 1 or 2 indicator is right, but the freight yard needs to be accessed using the subsidiary signal & G. You cannot enter yards or sidings on a main aspect And as you rightly said, the subsidiary signal would need a route description for permissive working.
We are bang on the money on this one. However, I need to buy another double three aspect signal. Gulp. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Sorry for more outlay Charlie. But signals can always find new homes on a layout.
@ChadwickModelRailway cam you go red, Amber at a platform like this? I am certain that the branch line at oxenhome (for windermere) is a two aspect, red/yellow but that's going down the branch, not back onto the west coast main line
How real are you going to have your signalling and.. how will you enforce correct train operation at those signals? I'm guessing that you want "full automation" so that eventually you can sit back and just watch it all happen... but, that seems like a museum-type of operation. Back to having real operators and back to my question of enforcing correct operation... Will signals be positioned as if they can be seen by tiny operators in the locomotives, or be visible by Giant "line-side" operators? John
That’s an interesting question John. I expect a computer program to control the signals for the scenic trains. However it then comes down to the operators, when they move there trains. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie,
How do you stop your railway from gathering dust? I understand that there are track cleaners but I mean for the scenery. Surely some scenery is delicate and hoovers may not be the best option.
Thanks for any help.
James
You’re right James, it’s a nightmare. Regards
Certainly keeps my interest alive Charlie. Not that much into signalling but it's great to follow all the logic behind it. Branch station looking to progress well. BTW just reviewed video 196 and those D couplings. Successfully modified four of my coaches with your help. It certainly was quite easy once I had done a couple of them. Thanks very much - excellent tutorial. Best wishes Kevin
Thanks Kevin, I’m so pleased that you found your modifications successful. Regards, Charlie
Thanks for another great video Charlie. I've only just started looking at signalling on my layout - so much food for thought! Looking forward to episode 200. How about a bit of an extended running session to see more of your locos on the layout?
What an excellent suggestion mate. Yes, I will certainly give some locos a good dusting off! Regards, Charlie
Absolute Aspects are brilliant signals but you need an absolute mortgage to afford them!!!
Absolutely right GS, regards, Charlie
Congratulations on the 200th Video upcoming. You asked for suggestions, and I have two. On my layout I have a train schedule for a "Standard Operations Day". My layout not being automated, I simply run all the trains myself and the standard day was created by using actual timetables, so it is pretty accurate. I do use JMRI Operations Pro to create the trains and create the switching lists, so it does not come off as stale and provides some challenges. All of this to simply say suggestion 1, do you have a standard operations day built yet and if so, why not run it for us. Suggestion 2, which is much more lighthearted, how about a gag reel and bloopers reel that chronicles all 199 past videos? We all seem to love self-deprecating humor.
Both are on the agenda Greg. Regards, Charlie
Why not have a pre-grouping signal on the branch. There's an ex-MR Lower Quadrant near Ketton on the line from Peterborough and Leicester.
Yes Neil, that’s what I’m after coming out of the station. Regards, Charlie
Charlie, great vid. Yes, you need a number 2 in the theatre indicator along with the red main aspect and the cats eyes below it.
Thanks Mike, much appreciated.
Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailwayJust don’t ask me about the yellow position light ground signals, I’ve no idea! 😂
As an ex=signaller, I would expect to see the main aspect used for the 'primary' route and feathers for a 'secondary' route, irrespective of the geography and which way the lines go. Yes I would expect to see a number in the route indicator when using the calling on signal, as this would allow the driver to confirm that he is being signalled into a platform that has enough room for his train. If platform 1 was full, and he got a call on into that platform, he should refuse to take the signal and contact the signaller to clarify. This assumes he can see both platforms from the signal. It would also help hime to drive correctly, as there may be different speed restrictions over the two routes. The headshunt signal would be similar to the light shown on the left side of the Absolute Aspects page you show at 13:56, or you later show yourself, but would have a yellow light where the one shown has a red light. For headshunt moves the light would show a horizontal yellow/white aspect. For moves out on to the mainline, the signal would show 2 diagonal white lights. You wouldn't need a main aspect signal. The junction protection signal leaving the branch isn't strictly necessary, given how close the station is to the junction. The starting signals on the platforms and the goods yard exit signal would be interlocked with the junction points to prevent them from being cleared if the route wasn't available. However, if you want to exercise a bit of poetic license and imagine that there was a greater distance involved, then a junction protection signal is absolutely fine.
My thoughts exactly Dell boy. I think we’re bang on the money, regards, Charlie
Enjoyed the video Charlie and great to see you are taking the signalling seriously. I hope it wasn’t only me that mentioned the catch / trap point. I wasn’t pasting you sorry if it came across that way. I think you once mentioned you worked on helicopters well you know more about railways than I know about helicopters and you’ve pretty much nailed it on this video.
Regarding feathers (correctly junction indicators) the indicator is for the route that diverges from the main route. In your case a No.1. The main route being to the helix.
Route indicators (slang = theatre boxes) are found where the line speed is slower. This is because it takes a driver longer to process the information they contain than just seeing the “flash” of a feather (flash being another slang term for a junction indicator). Let’s not get too far into signal sighting which is a whole different chapter of railway knowledge 🤣 Depending on your line speed coming off the curve onto the viaduct you could simply use a theatre type route indicator. M for helix, 1 or 2 for your dead end platforms. This would be 3 aspect green or yellow with M for M aim line (helix) yellow with 1 or 2 for your platforms.
That signal would also have position lights beneath the main aspect for movements towards the occupied dead ends. Position lights would still need a 1 or 2 route indication for the permissive (already occupied) platforms but position lights and no theatre indication would be for the goods sidings. So no need for a G indication.
A yellow ground signal would work for movements from the goods to the head-shunt, yellow and white horizontally displayed. This is the normal position for this type of signal, allowing for movements towards the headshunt with no involvement from the signaller. Only when a movement is to leave the goods sidings for the main line do you need the 2 whites at 45 degrees which the signaller sets. This allows for shunting into the neck without the signaller having to constantly set the signal which he would have to if it were a standard red/white ground signal. You don’t want the RMT on your back demanding better pay for the signaller because he’s never got chance for a brew🤣🤣
There would need to be a further main aspect stop signal beyond this yellow white ground signal before any conflict point with a junction though. Not sure if your track layout allows for this.
By all means send me the plan and I’ll signal it for you.
Best wishes
Paul (mainline train driver).
Thanks Paul, for an in-depth response. With similar advice from your colleagues, I think I’ve cracked it now. It’s great to have you onboard. Regards Charlie
Wow, that branch station is starting to look good. I have no experience to add on the signalling but it all looks pretty logical to me. And number 200 coming next - seems so recent that you were celebrating number 100, where did the time go?
Thanks Lee, it does seem that the older we get the faster the time goes!
Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway I forgot to say in my original comment... I think the Matrix should show the platform number when the positioning lights are on.... because there is no reason to not be able to put two bubble cars on either platform 1 or 2 - why would that option apply to platform 2 only?
Yes Lee, clearly a point which I omitted to mention. Many thanks, regards, Charlie
Yellow and white is a passive shunt signal. Meaning you can pass it all of the time regardless for the headshunt, but only on double white for the entrance to the mainline or whatever line is being protected by the signal.
Great information mate, and much appreciated. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailwayadditionally, you wouldn’t need the ‘main’ aspect signal (the red and green one) if you’re only running goods traffic on that line. The yellow and white shunt is enough
Charlie, Train-tech do a yellow and white ground signal - code GS2
Thanks Steve, I’m on to it.
Regards Charlie
Charlie, I enjoy watching your videos. you asked about the signal on approach to the station and the platform having another train in the platform, the signal will display a RED and the position lights also the platform number, this is known as "permissive working" in railway terms.
Thanks Philip, you’re bang on the money. Regards, Charlie
Bloody hell Charlie...can't believe they make these signals in HO now! As a signal electrician of 20 yrs , it's amazing to see these in the model form! We call "Feathers" Junction route indicators "JRI' s and the JRI will ALWAYS show the divergent path , so if the main goes to the left, the JRI will point right. We have them in from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock positions and you can have all if you need them! I change lamps in them all the time! The Number indicator is called a "Stencil" or Theatre down here in Australia and so cool to see a model one! You will (mostly) always get a yellow with a JRI or Theatre aspect unless high speed turnouts are used.
Very nice work and cool to see.
Cheers Gregg.
Hi Gregg, the fantastic folk at Absolute Aspects are now doing the multiple aspect signals, with Route Indicators, and ground shunting signals in N Gauge - they’re works of art.
I’m so pleased that you found interesting, Gregg. However, our diverging signal, points to the lower speed track! Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Hi Charlie, yes , I meant whichever is the lower speed route , to the left in your case.🙂
Hi Charlie, loved how realistic these signals are. Just bear in mind that when the signal clears permissively with the two white lights for your occupied platform, it does indeed require a platform number, so the driver knows where the unit is being sent and whether or not it will fit. (Source: am a driver who has frequently been signalled permissively into occupied platforms that did not have the required amount of space, usually as a result of a set swap onto a longer formation than was booked.)
Additionally, yellow and white ground position lights are indeed a thing, just less common - slightly different but Harrogate is a good example of where black and yellow shunting discs are still in use for headshunts.
Thanks N2883, we sing from the same song sheet on this one. Regards, Charlie
To keep it simple Charlie, if the train is in passenger service, an indication of route is required (a junction indicator or platform No.) If proceeding into an occupied platform on a position light. If it is an ECS move, as drivers we can take just a position light and proceed as far as the line is clear, being prepared to stop short of any obstructions.
Thanks Paul, I must confess I’ve learned a great deal about the subject since I released this video! Regards, Charlie
@ChadwickModelRailway Morning Charlie,
I'm sure you have. I guess us drivers take our signalling knowledge for granted.
I am an Instructor Driver and Route Assessor aswel as a run of the mill driver for GWR at Exeter. I sign Paddington to Penzance, and everywhere in between, including your kneck of the woods from Exeter to Castle Cary via Yeovil Jcn and Pen Mill as a diversionary route. As you can imagine, we work over all sorts of signalling systems from Semaphore, Single Line TCB, Tokens, Staffs, and of course MAS colour light, so please pick my brains if there is ever anything you need and I will put my 33 years service into some good use for you hopefully.
All the best, Paul
Hi Charlie. I’ll be bookmarking this one as I think it could be a useful reference in the future.
I have a number of second hand locos with deep wheel flanges that are not compatible with my code 75 track. Do you have any experience swapping code 100 wheels for code 75 ones? If so a video about how you went about doing it would be very welcome. If not for your 200th video then some time in the future. Take care, David
Hi David, I do need to swap out some of my wheels too.
Peters Spares, is one such source. Regards Charlie
Another interesting video thanks Charlie. The least you could have done was installed a level crossing with working gates and protecting lights to make it more complicated for yourself. Seriously, before the feather, a junction would have had two separate lights at the junction, one for the left and one for the right and they would have existed in the time period you are covering. I am so pleased you make your life easy, it provides excellent entertainment and I look forward to your fortnightly videos.
Thanks Don, every day is a school day in our world. Regards, Charlie
" Enlightening ". 200th eh ? Does the Bishop get promoted to Archbishop ??🙂 Brilliant non-condescending videos. Looking forward to many more.
Thanks Rob, that’s very kind of you to say so. Regards, Charlie
Hi this is an excellent video, I am a former Movements Inspector (Someone who passes out a signalman that is capable of working a specific Signal Box). Like many you have got confused with the issue of catch points, trap points and safety points. Catch points are at the bottom of inclines and are normally in the trailing position to derail runaway wagons. Trap points protect a siding adjoining a running line to make sure anything in the siding cannot get onto the running line and are open in the facing direction. Yours is a safety point to protect something from escaping from a private siding onto the main lines and would be worked from the signal box.
Thanks Andrew, much appreciated.
Could not a private line, have its access locked of without signal box intervention?
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, Some Private Sidings had a gate which could be unlocked by a key but this was dependent on the layout. Where a Safety point is used then it could be controlled via a ground frame by the train crew but in your situation it would be done by the signalman if the distance was up to the legal limit of 350 yards for a mechanically worked point or further if it is electrically operated. In some instances where a ground frame is used that could be electrically released from the Signal Box.
The situation concerning the Junction Indicator on the signal is slightly more complicated it would be dependent on factors such as line speed etc. In your example as a former Movements Inspector my opinion is that the Junction Indicator would go to the left, even though the Main to the right curves would have no influence on this as it is a through route. If the Main has a speed restriction of greater than 10 mph from the lead over the viaduct then you would have a Junction Indicator for both routes.
Your ground signal would have a yellow (bottom Left) and a white (bottom right) to indicate access to the head shunt is allowed but to get onto the main line the yellow light would go out and an additional white light above and at 45 degrees would be required to authorise a train to go onto the main line. Before the Signalman could reverse the lever for the ground signal the points would have to be reversed first to enable the ground signal lever to be unlocked.
In the Signal Box you pull the Point levers from the exit point towards the train and the signals in the order the train will pass them. Hope this helps but feel free to come back with any other questions you have.@@ChadwickModelRailway
Thanks Andrew for some intriguing details. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie I watched your video about signals and you mentioned shunt ground signals yellow and white I saw these from train tech on jadlam models
Train Tech Ground Position Shunt Signal - White/Yellow HO/OO Gauge TTGS2
SKU: TTGS2 £33.33
Best wishes
Kevin Beighton Parkway Sheffield
Thanks Kevin, mine arrived a couple of days ago. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie,
Got some information for you re yellow aspect shunt signals.
I worked in signal engineering for BR / Jarvis Rail / Network Rail from 1977 to 2018 and can honestly say I have never seen an actual installation of such a GPLS (Ground Position Light Signal) but the Rail Safety and Standards Board (now just RSSB) show what it should look like within one of their documents, namely Handbook RS521 Signal, Hand signals, Indicators and Signs.
How can I send you a link to the document?
Congrats on 200 episodes! Can we have a bloopers show, please?
Best wishes from Wirral!
Hi Darren, many thanks for your comment. Please send the link to Chadwick modelrailway@gmail.com. Regards, Charlie
Basic Ground Position Signals.
Red/White or White/White are Stop and Proceed accordingly.
Yellow/White or White/White can both be passed legally. Yellow proceeds the Red of the stop block, White shows clearance onto a running line.
Thanks Holly, I’ve now found all the reference material. Regards, Charlie
Hello there. Cracking video, as always. FYI, sharing a platform with another train is called 'Permissive Working'.
Thanks Andy, yes I’ve got that one, but it only took me 64 years to figure it out. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie well well what a great video there's no way I would be going down your road you clever old stick with all that electrickary [ I THINK I SPELT THAT WRONG WHAT EVER } but i do like the looks of that ASP2-NS Led Signal Controller so I'm going over to that video now to have a butchers. thanks again Charlie of an enlightening { no pun intended } video catch you on the next one.
Thanks Tony, and there are lots of other Block signalling videos on UA-cam. Regards, Charlie
The SIGM20 can definitely operate complex Absolute Aspect signals. I have one 3 colour signal with 2 theatre boxes showing M & B in one and M,B & S is another. It also has a position light signal. Using 3 of the outputs on the SIGM20 I've automated this with the colours changing by block occupancy and the theatre lights and main signals changing according to the point settings for the Branch, Mainline and Siding . It took me about three hours to set this up using a virtual diverging junction signal (see the SIGM20 instruction manual) set to always red or always green. The AA signals have only one earth, but it works for signals and theatre boxes even if its only connected into the relevant first SIGM20 output connection. The setting of the points and the occupancy 100% determine automatically the correct setting of the signal (lights and theatre boxes). The SIGM20 has a simpler check box setting for feathers, but I can't use that, as far as I know, because the theatre boxes are not on/off types. The feather check box does not work when the signal is red, so its not useful for position lights. Cheers Charles
Many thanks for such an interesting comment Charles. I do own 2 Sigm20 and would like to contact you, when I install them. Could you possibly email me at Chadwick modelrailway @gmail.com. Regards, Charlie
Well 200th, Def cake! In every hobby there are rivet counters, nod, smile and try not to join them; have fun that's the point of a hobby, Now where's my late 1939-Mid Jan 1940, Northern area aircraft works (allies) rivet counter?
Exactly right Leslie. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie. I remembered a site where they claim "The object of this site is to illustrate, and explain the meaning of, every signal indication or lineside sign that exists today or has existed in the past."
Railway Signs and Signals of Great Britain
The relevant part is:
Section 3; Shunting Signals
Page 4 of 4
[3.88] Position Light Shunting Signal with one Yellow Light ('on').
Area: All Areas Usage: High Status: Obsolescent
Hope this helps.
Thanks, Peter 95, I shall try and check it out. Regards, Charlie
Re signal 1 (before the viaduct), the diverging route (to the branch station would be the one with the feather (route indicator) and I have to (begrudgingly) agree with the signallers, Penwithers jn (Falmouth Branch) is a perfect example of this, Main Line curves right (no feather) and the Falmouth Branch goes straight on (left hand, position one feather), signed a current train driver.
The Branch signal would be correct for the station, but for the Goods it would be a Position Light and a G because the signaller wouldnt be able to guarantee the yard siding was clear to the buffer Stops as they wouldnt be track circuited and the signalman wouldnt know which route the hand points were set for.
The bubble car would receive the Position Light PLUS a platform number, to confirm to the driver they were correctly routed towards the Station and not wrong routed into the Goods Yard.
The signals from the Branch platforms would probably be 3 aspect if the next signal is capable of showing a Red Aspect, because they couldnt show a Green if the next signal was red as there must be a yellow in between on Track Circuit Block regulations, there doesnt have to be on Absolute Block in curtain circumstances but that is really complicating things.
The signal out of the Goods Yard would be horizontal yellow (left) and white (right) or 2 yellow for modern equivalent, the same as a normal Position Light but using Yellow instead of red, and 2 whites at 45 degrees to access the mainline, the Main Aspect might or might not be required depending how far away the next stop signal was and what the signalling engineer decided was required.
Here is a link to a model version-
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/134383596636?
And a link to show the Semaphore version [3.70] and [3.71], page 4 has the Colour Light version on [3.88] and [3.101] -
railsigns.uk/sect3page3.html
Ignore the yellow and green dots at the side of the signals, they are merely to show what aspect the picture is showing.
16 minutes, the Branch DMU wouldnt be able to stop there with your 2 aspect signalling because there isnt enough room for a yellow before the red, 3 aspect would allow for the DMU to leave on a single yellow and stop at your red.
Re priority given by freights to Passenger trains, Westbuty panel would disagree as they tended to give priority to HSTs over Passenger services, in their world HST stood for Heavy Stone Train!
Re the 200th video, some bloopers please because I enjoy those immensely.
Many thanks for your advice Mike, I’m most grateful. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, just a possible suggestion for the 200th video. I'm trundling my way through you library of videos but haven't seen much on the topic of 3d printing structure components such as viaduct supports, buildings etc. Unsure if you've broached this topic in a previous vid or done much with it in practice but maybe a topic for the future.... loving the content, although should come with a health warning... I'm getting through enough tea to make Thomas Twinning's blush and I'm on the Christmas card list with McVities digestives factory!
An interesting suggestion, MB. However, 3-D printing is something that I have never chosen to become involved with. Stay safe, regards, Charlie
Charlie, excellent information, on a subject which I have struggled with... but not any longer thanks to yourself, yeh I've read the books watched the films yet some how you cleared the fog away, thanks.. 200th gosh at 20 minutes a video that's 67 hours of learning and smiling, if I think of an idea, actually, what about showing a running session (accompanied, with others) bit of shunting, working around expresses and goods trains running on the main line etc.. just a thought. thanks Charlie
You’re on the money Vic. I do hope that you enjoy the video. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie,
IIf I may a couple of thoughts from a retired guard (albeit from the Midland region).
The feather should be on the left as the main aspect is always for the main line regardless of the actual geography of the track. Yes the calling on signal to move trains into an already occupied track (like you're platform example) should have the light box indicator showing the route.
Also, and very important YOU CAN NEVER show a green aspect if the next signal is going to be at danger, such as you're green aspect as the platform starter and the main line protection signal being at danger.
Hope that adds to the confusion and many congratulations on 200 videos.
Best wishes, Tony.
Thanks Tony, much appreciated. I’ve been sent quite a few yellow calling on signal surprisingly. Regards, Charlie
You might check out Larry Puckett the DCC Guy at Model Railroading. He may have a video on wiring those lighting components. He does quite a few & he is very clear in his explainations.
Thanks Phil, I do follow his very useful channel. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie,
A great video, thank you! I'm also trying to figure out how to signal my layout and have been looking at both the SE8C and the SIGM20. Here's what I think I've figured out but would love be corrected if I've got any of this wrong...
The SIGM20 looks like a great product and appears to have the ability to program lots of signal logic based on block occupancy and point position signals received via loconet. Great if you are running trains manually and want signals to change automatically. However, it does not appear to report the signal aspect to loconet and the only external control of the signal is to either force it to red or return it to its usual logic based operation using an accessory address. I use iTrain, but my understanding is that with any computer software you will not be able to display the signal aspect on the computer screen unless it has been forced to red or you set up additional logic within your software to mimic the SIGM20 logic.
The SE8C does not appear to have any internal logic and therefore any automatic signal logic would need to come from computer software. I have found this relatively easy to set up in iTrain and the logic will still apply even when running trains manually. However, the SE8C is pretty expensive and also has several other functions including operating as an accessory decoder for points. So perhaps if you have signals and point motors in the same area that both need accessory decoders this might be useful.
I use DCC concepts cobalt IP digital points, which obviously have their own decoders included, and so have no use for the additional functions of the SE8C. For that reason I think I'm going to go with the Train Tech DCC signals, which incorporate an accessory decoder, and write logic within iTrain which will control the signals via their accessory addresses. I believe this should work whether the trains are being operated automatically or manually (provided the iTrain is connected and running).
I'd love know if there's anything here I haven't understood properly or whether there is a better solution that I'm missing!
Keep up the good work with the videos
What an interesting comment Duncan.
You are clearly leaps and bounds in front of me. Let’s keep in touch regarding development.
Please use
Chadwick modelrailway @gmail.com.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, in answer to a couple of your questions: if a subsidiary signal is used for permissive working (eg: a train going into an occupied platform), it depends on what day of the week the signalling was installed. Sometimes the theater box would display the platform number, in other locations it may not.
With regards to your headshunt, I think you have this wrong. You could dispense with the main aspect signal and use a subsidiary that would display either two yellows (horizontally) to allow movement into the headshunt or two whites diagonally to allow access to the main line.
An earlier version of the shunt signal has four lights, although I cannot remember how the lights are set out. An example exists at Mountfield sidings on the Hastings line.
Semaphore disc signals were yellow and black.
Many thanks and you are bang on the money. I have bought and fitted the headshunt signal you described, and included it in a latter video.
Regards Charlie.
When applying rules might not an enquiry to the Railway Preservation society. If there is one in Britain. A mine off relevant information from Irish Rail network from the Glory days of the Great Western and Eastern up go CIE Irish Rail.
Retired Irish Rail craftsman.
Now that’s an excellent point Derek. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, Regarding your MP1 not having feedback. Instead of using the only switch to feed the frog have it throw a DPDT relay, and use one pole for the frog and the other for feedback.
Now there’s an interesting suggestion James. Regards, Charlie.
Well done Charlie on your progress so far. I have never worked on the railway, though I have always had an interest in signalling and I am sure you have watched or had recommended to you the "BR Signalling" ua-cam.com/video/wAO3JbXYRnI/v-deo.html here on UA-cam, but I seem to remember mention of a local ground mount movement signal with amber and white lights. Sorry for regurgitating what many others have probably said and looking forward to 200.
Thanks for the link Stephen, I’m all over this now thank you but it was a head scratching moment. Regards, Charlie
I have just bought a train tech signal which i am going to try. They allegedly will connect together to work on a sensor which will change automatically, wish me luck. Also it has been a landmark week as i have just got a train to do a full circuit on my roundy roundy up in the loft. The down side is i now have about 50 mtrs of track to ballast. So if you are ever at a loose end! As aside. Do you think you will ever finish Chadwick, as i think my layout is a S.A.B.L.E project. keep up the good work your videos have definitely been an inspiration.
Interesting point Kelvin. The branch line tracklaying is almost complete, but then we’re off to the new freight yard area which I’d like to do before the end of the year. Then we have a few years of scenics! Regards, Charlie
Yellow and white ground signals available from Eckon at Rails of Sheffield
Thanks Mike, but I’ve ordered mine from train tech. Regards, Charlie
Hello, I've got some 4 aspect signals from absolute aspects and was wondering if you could do a short video of you wiring these with a rotary switch. Thanks.
Sadly Thomas, I don’t have any rotary switches. I’m a little disappointed that AA didn’t supply any info.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie I just watch your video. I got a book call ed Colour light signalling for model Railways by Simon Paley that has help me in the pass for signalling . yours David
I may well check it out David, thanks for the tip. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie you are spot on with your program on TT120 I think as a 70 year old model railway follower ex exhibitor in n guage 30 years ago (*I have a mass of 00 guage now ) the idea of Simon is flawed badly and will hurt them in the future.
Simon K, has now bailed out of Hornby Christopher. Let’s hope that they can now do better.
Regards Charlie
And the Train-tech kit version is GK4. I have installed the red version, GK2 and found it quite straightforward. Congratulations on the upcoming video 200!
Thanks Steve, I’ve tracked down the GS2, and believe that’s the white and yellow version. Some appear to be self assembly kits. Regards, Charlie
From personal experience the TT gps's are easy to assemble, scale sized and good value for money if their design suits your location, I shall have to bite the AA bullet at some stage!
Also, I believe, the feather illuminates first and then you are given the aspect, not being professional railwayman this is information I've been given from a driver.
Thanks Mike, and you’re right, the feather does illuminate slightly earlier. Regards, Charlie
I was watching McKinley railway vids and lo and behold I see your name as editor! You are quite the videographer. Nice work.
Thanks Scott, David is an incredible source of knowledge.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, the answer to your question regarding feathers or junction indicators as they are formally known, put simply is that the route with the higher speed and most obvious straight route will be the main route, not necessarily a 'main line', it will be the most obvious straight route or one with the highest speed, this route will use just a colour aspect on it's own and the route or routes with the lower speeds will use junction indicators to the left or right and a proceed aspect, which ever way they diverge from the main route.
No1 being the second fastest or of most notable geographic importance to the left and No.4 being the same to the right, if there are more then they drop down in order.
Where speeds are the same or no obvious straight route can be defined then both routes will use a junction indicator along with a proceed aspect to the left and right, displaying either a No1 or a No4 with a proceed aspect for one of the chosen routes for example.
There's also the flashing yellow sequences, but I'll not bore you with those 😁
There's always some areas that will just stray and do things randomly but this is the main way it is done and is rule book defined.
The full rule can be found online within RSSB RS521 signals, Hand signals, Indicators and Signs.
Rule 2.3.
For working permissively it all depends on the type of permissive work authorised in that area, found in the Network Rail Sectional Appendix as to what should be displayed and how to operate there.
The Signaller will know how to signal a train using it's headcode.
If it's passenger permissive working then a route should be displayed in the route indicator (theatre box) when in passenger service, when empty stock you can proceed without anything in the route indicator, you would usually be in contact with the signaller in this scenario to gain verbal instruction of destination point if it's into a multi permissive platform.
The yellow/white shunting signals have largely been replaced with standard red/white now but there are still a fair few knocking around and are found in signalled sidings at the exit with a headshunt.
Basically when yellow/white is displayed you can pass the signal but only into the headshunt, when cleared you are authorised to pass and proceed at caution onto the main line as far as the line is clear, stopping short of a signal, train, obstruction or buffer stop, same meaning when a standard red/white position light is cleared but obviously when not cleared the red/white is at danger.
If using the standard red/white position light you would also need a mini route indicator box with it if using it for more than one route.
So a yellow one, if only two routes used would be simpler and cheaper probably and still in keeping.
They were used to help the signaller in not having to constantly clear a signal for headshunt use as this would no doubt be used a lot by shunting locos in a siding.
If using two aspect signalling that only shows red and green, your next signal in advance cannot display a red as you cannot go from green to red, you have to be cautioned before a red.
Hope this helps, sorry for rabbiting on.
Driver up in the North West of England.
Great video as always 👍
All great info, Rob, and very much appreciated mate. Stay safe, regards, Charlie
Thanks for another great video Charlie. Did you decide whether to do a number 2 in the route indicator box at 09.05, not sure Network Rail would appreciate it !
An excellent observation M2003.
I’ll sort out the paperwork!
Regards Charlie
A combination of trains running on the layout and in the iTrain/TrainController software. Would give overview of how it is, is controlled ( including signalling) at this point in time. Cheers Charlie. Carry on. Filip
Thanks Filip, they are definitely on the list. Regards Charlie
If you still have questions about signalling then if you're going to warley, the signalling record society will probably be able to help you with a number of signalling enthusiasts and experts, some of whom worked as signalling engineers or signallers. It is signalling engineers that from the period you would want over drivers typically. Helpful to have a diagram with you if you do ask at the society stand.
Thanks BC, I shall certainly check them out at Warley in November. Regards, Charlie
Superb video as ever Charlie. I’m learning loads, thank you. And I agree, the branch station is looking fine. I want to concur with the suggestion above to consider pre-grouping semaphore signals on the branch line, that would add a huge amount of extra interest (and no doubt complexity, like where would you put all the point motors?). Finally, many congrats for getting to the point of needing a 200 celebration video, can’t wait 😃.
Thanks blue, I’m so pleased to have you on board. Regards, Charlie
Once again, Charlie, you've binded me with witchcraft. Neither the less interesting.
Thanks DJ, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Current National Rail driver here weighing in on the questions.
The feather on the viaduct should be for the lower speed route, not necessarily the physically diverging route, at least in modern practice.
The theatre box signal. Really the aspect for the goods yard should really be using the subsidiary signal, not the main aspect for entering a yard. And yes, you should have a route indication when the subsidiary signal clears for permissive working.
Yellow and white GPLs are very rare nowadays but do fit your time period. But the way they work doesnt fit how you want to use them. The idea is a driver can pass then at yellow at any time for authorised routes but for any other route they need to be cleared. In your situation you wouldn't have the main aspect. So the headshunt would be passed at yellow but the mainline would have to have the fully cleared white aspect.
Aaah, signalling is a beast that so many modellers get vastly wrong
Great advice, Dave, and I think this time I’m bang on the money, hopefully! Regards, Charlie
3:42 "Resistor strike rates" well that is one inventive way to explain LED voltage drops etc.
Yes, Paul, that was a new one on me until an electronics wizard explained it. Regards, Charlie.
I have learnt a lot about UK signaling from your channel and others. It's quite different here in the USA. Railways here don't use a feather or use route indicators on our signals. We also don't use 4 aspect signals. Good video as always. Bill from California, USA.
Thanks Bill, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting in our antiquated system. Regards Charlie
@ChadwickModelRailway I didn't think it was antiquated. I was thinking, hay, if it works for the UK, great!
Couldn't you use train-controller to automate the signals - by knowing which way a point is set, and if the following block is clear, it should be possible to run the signal sequence, set the appropriate feather, etc?
That’s exactly my intention Neil, first thing is to understand the theory behind it. Regards, Charlie
Hi again Charlie. Just an operational observation. If your platform end starter signals are 2 aspect, you would need another signal before the one protecting the junction with the main line as you can't go from green to red. Hope that makes sense. 😎
Yes it does Les, I’ll get 3 aspect ones.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, ref for 200th show.? Cake with candles of course.
Great show as always.
Candles, what a fire hazard! Regards, Charlie
I have over 200 points that I all want to be finger operated to remove any confusion for operators when they come to play.
I have not worked out yet how to reverse engineer a lever system from the tie bar on the point back to 2 switches. The issue is really only a main line one. One switch to cut DCC track power to stop an approaching main line train from blundering onto another that is either entering or leaving the main line. (A real issue that happens too quickly at times). The other switch to be DC for the green/red light. Autofrog can take care of polarity issues on electro frog points.
Thank you for your continuing contribution to the hobby Charlie. (I meant to write this 2 weeks ago).
Thanks Robin, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the channel. Good luck with your challenges. Regards Charlie
If working permissivly you still need to see what your route is. So 1, 2 or G for this instance with your red aspect and permissive. Dont forget there is the right way, the wrong way & the railway!
Thanks Northampton, West, and I did like your last line. Regards, Charlie
Financial Health Warning! I love it!
They are a shocking price!
Regards, Charlie
think you'll need a shunt signal on the line from the branch to towards the viaduct, for any light loco moves from the platforms to the goods yard, facing the opposite direction of course, for when the driver changes ends? Or, you'll be restricted to such moves via the main arriving line and the signal with the route indicator., but such a move would block that for arrivals and also block the main line.
Can you make an interesting point Matthew and one which I hadn’t thought about. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie. Is the feedback from a switch motor to show an indicator on the TC software screen just eye candy or does it have an actual function ? Thanks, Nigel
It’s something I have wondered about considerably Nigel. I’m assured it does have a constructive impact. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, I'm a driver on the midland main line, to put a spanner in the works at trent junction on the down main line the signal protecting the diverging junction, Derby/Nottingham lines the signal has 2 route indicators on no1 for Derby and no4 for Nottingham in other words you need a route indicator whether you're going left or right, also if you get the cats eyes on a signal protecting a station you would also get the platform number as well. Lee
Thanks Lee. At the junction, are the speeds the same for both routes?
Regards Charlie
Cant wait for video 300 when you run trains qith all the rooms lights are off and its just lit up by the model lights. Once all your signals are up and running perhaps its time for the camera cube to make a re appearance. Regards as always.
Thanks Simon, but number 300 is a lifetime away. Regards, Charlie
If entering an occupied platform it would be a red main aspect, position light off (lit) with the platform number illuminated.
Going into the goods yard position light lit, main aspect at danger with G in the indicator box (or small ones adjacent the position light)
Thanks Castle bank, much appreciated. Regards, Charlie
Gor your 200th I'll go along bloopers simple because of your sense of humor.
Rest assured Bob, there will be a few bloopers in it. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie great video as always.
For what its worth i think there is a video called BR signalling signalling which could help you. Its quite a long video but somewhere in that video there is a section which covers a head shunt where when not set for the mainline displays a white and yellow light and then clears to two white lights when set for the mainline. You might be able to do something similar.
One for potential future videos you mentioned you are thinking about which of your points are controlled via a Signal box VS doing it with point rodding.
If you do decide to try point rodding I would really love it if you did how to video on installing point rodding as I can't find any decant ones on UA-cam.
Wish you the best for the 200th video
Thanks Matt, for your useful comments. I have tracked down the headshunt signal, train tech make it. As for point Roding, only time will tell. Take care, regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, You mention that you've not seen the yellow and white shunt signal, well i've found an example of one on this old British Rail instructional video on signalling. I've time stamped the link to the correct portion of the video. ua-cam.com/video/wAO3JbXYRnI/v-deo.html
Thanks for the link SB. I shall certainly check it out. Regards Charlie
Now for the next signal for entry to station. The main aspect with 1/2 is ok but the position light should be offset to the right, also in your instance you would not have a main aspect with G for entry into the reception line. You would only get this occurrence if the reception line was under signal box control ie fully signalled. Your yard is outside signal box control so it would require an offset position light. When the position light is inline with the main aspect then the platform lines would be permissive and the position light is used with a 1/2
Thanks LR, for such an interesting comment. Food for thought, regards, Charlie
hey charlie, have you looked at Yamorc YD8116 for a signal decoder ?
I had a J, but I’ve already invested in the alternatives. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie I posted a comment regarding ground position light signals (shunt signals) that were able to show a yellow aspect I have pictures of the type of signal and an explanation in my rule if you would like me to send you a copy to help you reproduce that particular signal please let me know all the best.
Hi Mark I now have a copy of the Signal Handbook RS-521. It’s very enlightening.
Regards Charlie
Great episode Charlie. always fun to watch.
Thanks mate, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie just watched this video, in answer to the question about yellow and white ground signals at your head shunt i believe ground disc signal's would be used with a yellow bar on a white back ground. Have also seen a yellow bar on a black background which had a permanent spot light on them. As you are modeling a branch terminus i think this would be more appropriate than colour light signals The way this signal would work is that if its on your train can pass it in to the head shunt. And If it is off this means your train can leave the yard but as it is a shunting signal it is under caution as the next signal may be red or, there may be an obstruction.
Thanks Jamier, that makes perfect sense. Regards Charlie
In that particular situation, local instructions could say that a slow heavy class 9 freight coming up from the tunnel would have priority over a class 2 passenger train off the branch, as it would avoid the difficult start of a heavy train up the gradient.
That’s an interesting point. Well worth considering. Regards, Charlie
I'm a mainline driver in the uk, in my experience the junction indicator (feather) is for the diverging route. In your case the diverging route is the branch line station. As the double track mainline goes to the helix and is the main route.
A junction indicator doesn't have any relation to whether the line curves or not. I understand aesthetically, especially on a model railway the feathers might look better pointing to the direction of the tracks that appear to diverge
I’m with you on this one David. Many thanks, regards, Charlie
Wow. I love what you are achieving but my head is spinning. A little daunting for someone who is about to start on this journey next year 😊
Not to worry, Rod, every day is a school day. Regards, Charlie
Yet another both informative and entertaining video. I'm learning something new every time but I also realise there is so much more for me to learn. Thanks for sharing and I look forward to your bicentenary. Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪.
Thanks Anders, I’m so pleased that you’re joining me on my journey. Regards Charlie
Yeah, it's a case of the more you learn the less you know! 🙂
👍👍Hi Charlie, very informative and interesting video.🚂🚂
Thanks DJE, that’s very kind of you to say so.
Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie as for your shunting dolly google Melton Mowbray signal box go to images you’ll see one at the bottom of the steps, in the horizontal position you can shunt past it, but to go onto the running line it must be pulled off, into the 5past7 position, I’d send you the picture but not sure how to . Lee
Hi Lee, thanks for the comment.
I have tracked down several images now but thanks for the offer anyway.
Regards Charlie
hello there. i know that my comment is a bit late but ‘ua-cam.com/video/wAO3JbXYRnI/v-deo.htmlsi=NOQjZ80235MnDc6T’ at 19:40 has some information on that elusive, yellow and white ground signal-as well as some other good information on BR signals in general.
Thanks DFS. There’s clearly some great info here. Regards, Charlie.
this may sound a bit odd. i'd like to see under the boards. if you have any photos i could download, that would be great. i'm a retired psychiatric nurse and i've found an interest in drawing. i would like to use your below board stuff for drawing ideas.
I shall see what I can do Kevin. Regards, Charlie.
Main aspect is for the mainline. So the feathers would be for the diverging route ie onto the branch line.
It’s more complicated than that, I’m afraid. The speed of both lines also taken into consideration. Regards, Charlie
With model railways it’s always compromise regarding space and the length of your train. How do you get on if your train you are running is stopped at a red signal, but the last coach or wagon is still in the previous signal section.
You make a very interesting point Ian. It’s one of the hazards of compression due to scale. Regards, Charlie
As a driver, The main route is a plain aspect, the route off the main route, I e your branch will have a number 1 route indicator (ie feather)
I’m with you all the way on this one mate. Regards, Charlie
The feather should go on whichever is the slower speed route! If there the same speed then it’s whichever is classed as the main route but that’s for current day! I’m a wcml driver and an ex signaller
Thanks CR, your advice is much appreciated. Regards Charlie
Very interesting I have started a savings account and taking a year off to study!
Only a year! Regards, Charlie