Hi Charlie. Train driver here. Section 2.3 in the RSSB Handbook RS521, Signals, Handsignals, Indicators and Signs states the following: “Junction indicators are provided to show that a train is being signalled to a route to the left or right of the straight route. When the straight route is obvious, there is normally no junction indicator provided for this route. Where there is no obvious straight route, a junction indicator will be provided for all signalled routes. Where the straight route is not the highest-speed route, the junction indicator will normally apply to the lower-speed route. Where the diverging routes ahead are both of equal speed, a junction indicator will be provided for each route.”
Hi Charlie I’m an active train driver regarding ground position light signals displaying yellow aspect these are stop signals applying to movements in the direction to which the signal can be cleared other movements can pass the signal without it being cleared therefore the signal showing a yellow aspect and a white aspect the movement is cleared for the shunt neck when the same signal shows 2 white lights at 45 degrees the movement is cleared for mainline however this will also mean that the train needs to be able to stop at the next main aspect signal or it’s coming on top of another train the type of signal you need is a yellow and white light both lit and when the signal is changed the yellow light goes out and shows 2 white lights at 45 degrees hope this helps I’ve got photos in my rule book don’t think I can add the to the comments.
Thanks Mark, I fully understand that. However, coming in from the mainline you will pass the unlit side of the signal. I’m wondering what the signal might show and does it matter anyway. Regards Charlie
Hi this is an excellent video, I am a former Movements Inspector (Someone who passes out a signalman that is capable of working a specific Signal Box). Like many you have got confused with the issue of catch points, trap points and safety points. Catch points are at the bottom of inclines and are normally in the trailing position to derail runaway wagons. Trap points protect a siding adjoining a running line to make sure anything in the siding cannot get onto the running line and are open in the facing direction. Yours is a safety point to protect something from escaping from a private siding onto the main lines and would be worked from the signal box.
Hi Charlie, Some Private Sidings had a gate which could be unlocked by a key but this was dependent on the layout. Where a Safety point is used then it could be controlled via a ground frame by the train crew but in your situation it would be done by the signalman if the distance was up to the legal limit of 350 yards for a mechanically worked point or further if it is electrically operated. In some instances where a ground frame is used that could be electrically released from the Signal Box. The situation concerning the Junction Indicator on the signal is slightly more complicated it would be dependent on factors such as line speed etc. In your example as a former Movements Inspector my opinion is that the Junction Indicator would go to the left, even though the Main to the right curves would have no influence on this as it is a through route. If the Main has a speed restriction of greater than 10 mph from the lead over the viaduct then you would have a Junction Indicator for both routes. Your ground signal would have a yellow (bottom Left) and a white (bottom right) to indicate access to the head shunt is allowed but to get onto the main line the yellow light would go out and an additional white light above and at 45 degrees would be required to authorise a train to go onto the main line. Before the Signalman could reverse the lever for the ground signal the points would have to be reversed first to enable the ground signal lever to be unlocked. In the Signal Box you pull the Point levers from the exit point towards the train and the signals in the order the train will pass them. Hope this helps but feel free to come back with any other questions you have.@@ChadwickModelRailway
Bloody hell Charlie...can't believe they make these signals in HO now! As a signal electrician of 20 yrs , it's amazing to see these in the model form! We call "Feathers" Junction route indicators "JRI' s and the JRI will ALWAYS show the divergent path , so if the main goes to the left, the JRI will point right. We have them in from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock positions and you can have all if you need them! I change lamps in them all the time! The Number indicator is called a "Stencil" or Theatre down here in Australia and so cool to see a model one! You will (mostly) always get a yellow with a JRI or Theatre aspect unless high speed turnouts are used. Very nice work and cool to see. Cheers Gregg.
Hi Gregg, the fantastic folk at Absolute Aspects are now doing the multiple aspect signals, with Route Indicators, and ground shunting signals in N Gauge - they’re works of art.
Your dedication to authenticity is admirable! The operational complexity boggles the minds of those of us who just had figures of eight in the early 1960s.
To keep it simple Charlie, if the train is in passenger service, an indication of route is required (a junction indicator or platform No.) If proceeding into an occupied platform on a position light. If it is an ECS move, as drivers we can take just a position light and proceed as far as the line is clear, being prepared to stop short of any obstructions.
@ChadwickModelRailway Morning Charlie, I'm sure you have. I guess us drivers take our signalling knowledge for granted. I am an Instructor Driver and Route Assessor aswel as a run of the mill driver for GWR at Exeter. I sign Paddington to Penzance, and everywhere in between, including your kneck of the woods from Exeter to Castle Cary via Yeovil Jcn and Pen Mill as a diversionary route. As you can imagine, we work over all sorts of signalling systems from Semaphore, Single Line TCB, Tokens, Staffs, and of course MAS colour light, so please pick my brains if there is ever anything you need and I will put my 33 years service into some good use for you hopefully. All the best, Paul
Enjoyed the video Charlie and great to see you are taking the signalling seriously. I hope it wasn’t only me that mentioned the catch / trap point. I wasn’t pasting you sorry if it came across that way. I think you once mentioned you worked on helicopters well you know more about railways than I know about helicopters and you’ve pretty much nailed it on this video. Regarding feathers (correctly junction indicators) the indicator is for the route that diverges from the main route. In your case a No.1. The main route being to the helix. Route indicators (slang = theatre boxes) are found where the line speed is slower. This is because it takes a driver longer to process the information they contain than just seeing the “flash” of a feather (flash being another slang term for a junction indicator). Let’s not get too far into signal sighting which is a whole different chapter of railway knowledge 🤣 Depending on your line speed coming off the curve onto the viaduct you could simply use a theatre type route indicator. M for helix, 1 or 2 for your dead end platforms. This would be 3 aspect green or yellow with M for M aim line (helix) yellow with 1 or 2 for your platforms. That signal would also have position lights beneath the main aspect for movements towards the occupied dead ends. Position lights would still need a 1 or 2 route indication for the permissive (already occupied) platforms but position lights and no theatre indication would be for the goods sidings. So no need for a G indication. A yellow ground signal would work for movements from the goods to the head-shunt, yellow and white horizontally displayed. This is the normal position for this type of signal, allowing for movements towards the headshunt with no involvement from the signaller. Only when a movement is to leave the goods sidings for the main line do you need the 2 whites at 45 degrees which the signaller sets. This allows for shunting into the neck without the signaller having to constantly set the signal which he would have to if it were a standard red/white ground signal. You don’t want the RMT on your back demanding better pay for the signaller because he’s never got chance for a brew🤣🤣 There would need to be a further main aspect stop signal beyond this yellow white ground signal before any conflict point with a junction though. Not sure if your track layout allows for this. By all means send me the plan and I’ll signal it for you. Best wishes Paul (mainline train driver).
Thanks Paul, for an in-depth response. With similar advice from your colleagues, I think I’ve cracked it now. It’s great to have you onboard. Regards Charlie
Yellow/white ground position signal - You can pass these in the on position as long as the line is set for the route that the signal cant clear. Meaning you can pass the signal in the on position as long as the points are set into the headshunt. For going out onto the mainline, you have to obey that signal in the normal manner. As for route indicators, they are normally for a lesser route, you usually have the main aspect for the more ‘important’ /faster route
Hi (youngish) Charles. My goodness, after watching this, am I glad I opted to continue with my station duties at BR's Wimbledon (1970s) and not apply for a second-man position that would lead up to being a train driver. If that had happened, I would probably have been stationed at Clapham Junction (the world's largest junction), Wimbledon Park depot or, Waterloo (remember the Clapham rail disaster?). That being the case, a mental breakdown would almost certainly have ensued as during rush hours, Wimbledon Station saw trains arriving only 2mins apart in either direction. It just goes to show that signalling is the single most important aspect (no pun intended) of running a railway service. God help the commuters if it ever goes wrong. Paul. 👍❤
You are very lucky that you have such availability of advisors that actually have a good understanding and experience with real railroad service..Thanks for sharing..
Don’t forget wiring diagrams… red to orange, orange to white and blue to bits! 🫣 Another nice episode Charlie. Look forward to see how you get on installing those. ✌🏻👍🏻🇬🇧
Hi Charlie, to answer your question - you would get the platform number and position light to advise the driver to travel at caution as their is another train in section. Chris
G'day Charlie, Thank you for your informative videos and congratulations on your 200th video. Your content is always helpful and i look forward to every new video you release . My modeling is based on queensland railways here down under in Australia. I worked for QR when i was 15 years old as a bridge nipper until i left qr aged 23 but have many fond memories. I am now a retired 61 year old and have embraced our magnificent hobby now that i have spare time. My lovely wife Jenny seems ok with this until the hair dryer or hair spray makes its way into the train shed and i have forgotten to return them. Anyway Charlie please keep up the high standzrds that you produce. Cheers from Graeme from downunder.
Hi Charlie, the answer to your question regarding feathers or junction indicators as they are formally known, put simply is that the route with the higher speed and most obvious straight route will be the main route, not necessarily a 'main line', it will be the most obvious straight route or one with the highest speed, this route will use just a colour aspect on it's own and the route or routes with the lower speeds will use junction indicators to the left or right and a proceed aspect, which ever way they diverge from the main route. No1 being the second fastest or of most notable geographic importance to the left and No.4 being the same to the right, if there are more then they drop down in order. Where speeds are the same or no obvious straight route can be defined then both routes will use a junction indicator along with a proceed aspect to the left and right, displaying either a No1 or a No4 with a proceed aspect for one of the chosen routes for example. There's also the flashing yellow sequences, but I'll not bore you with those 😁 There's always some areas that will just stray and do things randomly but this is the main way it is done and is rule book defined. The full rule can be found online within RSSB RS521 signals, Hand signals, Indicators and Signs. Rule 2.3. For working permissively it all depends on the type of permissive work authorised in that area, found in the Network Rail Sectional Appendix as to what should be displayed and how to operate there. The Signaller will know how to signal a train using it's headcode. If it's passenger permissive working then a route should be displayed in the route indicator (theatre box) when in passenger service, when empty stock you can proceed without anything in the route indicator, you would usually be in contact with the signaller in this scenario to gain verbal instruction of destination point if it's into a multi permissive platform. The yellow/white shunting signals have largely been replaced with standard red/white now but there are still a fair few knocking around and are found in signalled sidings at the exit with a headshunt. Basically when yellow/white is displayed you can pass the signal but only into the headshunt, when cleared you are authorised to pass and proceed at caution onto the main line as far as the line is clear, stopping short of a signal, train, obstruction or buffer stop, same meaning when a standard red/white position light is cleared but obviously when not cleared the red/white is at danger. If using the standard red/white position light you would also need a mini route indicator box with it if using it for more than one route. So a yellow one, if only two routes used would be simpler and cheaper probably and still in keeping. They were used to help the signaller in not having to constantly clear a signal for headshunt use as this would no doubt be used a lot by shunting locos in a siding. If using two aspect signalling that only shows red and green, your next signal in advance cannot display a red as you cannot go from green to red, you have to be cautioned before a red. Hope this helps, sorry for rabbiting on. Driver up in the North West of England. Great video as always 👍
Hi Charlie you are spot on with your program on TT120 I think as a 70 year old model railway follower ex exhibitor in n guage 30 years ago (*I have a mass of 00 guage now ) the idea of Simon is flawed badly and will hurt them in the future.
Hi Charlie. Current train driver here. Agree that the branch line would have the diverging 'feather' as usually this would have a lower speed or priority at the junction. Also, if entering a station on position lights I would expect a platform number if multiple platforms. Your solution to the Goods line departure signal is good, however if the position light is associated with a main aspect then it doesn't need to be illuminated all the time, only when required for a shunting movement. A departure onto the mainline just needs a main aspect. Tim B.
Charlie, I enjoy watching your videos. you asked about the signal on approach to the station and the platform having another train in the platform, the signal will display a RED and the position lights also the platform number, this is known as "permissive working" in railway terms.
Hi Charlie, Re: the gpls for the headshunt. They were identical to the normal ones, but instead of a red they have a yellow aspect. This would be placed before the headshunt points and control all movements.. with a white/yellow indication (on), the train can use the headshunt. When cleared to 2 whites, the train accesses the main line you don't need a main aspect. Also, your station starters will need to be 3 aspects, as you cannot go from a green to a red, if the junction is not cleared from the branch station. On the inbound signal, yellow with 1 or 2 indicator is right, but the freight yard needs to be accessed using the subsidiary signal & G. You cannot enter yards or sidings on a main aspect And as you rightly said, the subsidiary signal would need a route description for permissive working.
@ChadwickModelRailway cam you go red, Amber at a platform like this? I am certain that the branch line at oxenhome (for windermere) is a two aspect, red/yellow but that's going down the branch, not back onto the west coast main line
Hey Charlie, The feather usually follows the diverging branch of the point because when the feather is not illuminated when the highest speed route is indicated. So if you have a left hand point, you would use a left hand feather. Right hand point, use a right hand feather. Looking at 1:56 the problem is with your track, you are using right hand points to send the mainline down the diverging line, I think normally using a left hand point to branch off to the station and allowed the mainline to continue straight at higher speeds with it then curving off to the right. With your viaduct though that probably wouldn't have fit. I think the solution you want here is to put a speed restriction on the viaduct side before the points, making both the mainline and the branch line the same or similar speeds at that junction, then use both left and right junction indicators on the signal. When the route is into the station, you would illuminate the left feather, when the route is on the main line, you would illuminate the right feather. There are best practices but things are taken on a site specific basis usually. On another note, I think down line signals are usually odd numbered and the up line are even numbered. Its looking good though!
If the curved line is the mainline then the feather has to be for the straight line coming out of the point. So for a right-hand point the feather would point to the left.
Also, your point about the points is incorrect. For example, I sign from Ipswich to Peterborough. At Ely the line diverges to the left (at least to the eye of a non railwayman) and the other line goes straight on to Kings Lynn. But it's the king's Lynn line that has the junction indicator. If turning left at Ely north towards Peterborough you get no indication at all, just a main aspect.
Hi Charlie, I'm a driver on the midland main line, to put a spanner in the works at trent junction on the down main line the signal protecting the diverging junction, Derby/Nottingham lines the signal has 2 route indicators on no1 for Derby and no4 for Nottingham in other words you need a route indicator whether you're going left or right, also if you get the cats eyes on a signal protecting a station you would also get the platform number as well. Lee
Always cool to see the signals wired in--rather the point of all the wiring effort up front. And, as an overseas observer, always interesting to see the differences in how the track signals are set up.
Hi Charlie, in answer to a couple of your questions: if a subsidiary signal is used for permissive working (eg: a train going into an occupied platform), it depends on what day of the week the signalling was installed. Sometimes the theater box would display the platform number, in other locations it may not. With regards to your headshunt, I think you have this wrong. You could dispense with the main aspect signal and use a subsidiary that would display either two yellows (horizontally) to allow movement into the headshunt or two whites diagonally to allow access to the main line. An earlier version of the shunt signal has four lights, although I cannot remember how the lights are set out. An example exists at Mountfield sidings on the Hastings line. Semaphore disc signals were yellow and black.
Many thanks and you are bang on the money. I have bought and fitted the headshunt signal you described, and included it in a latter video. Regards Charlie.
Great video as always. With regards to a yellow/white ground position light, the definition of it is:- STOP. May be passed at danger for movements in the direction to which the signal, when cleared, does not apply. That means that a train may pass a yellow/white signal without the Signalman's permission towards the headshunt, but would require the signal to display two white lights to enter the main line at caution
Charlie, congratulations on reaching 200. It seems like only yesterday you were trying to figure out how Tortoise switch machines works, with that box of 20 in your living room.
Another interesting video thanks Charlie. The least you could have done was installed a level crossing with working gates and protecting lights to make it more complicated for yourself. Seriously, before the feather, a junction would have had two separate lights at the junction, one for the left and one for the right and they would have existed in the time period you are covering. I am so pleased you make your life easy, it provides excellent entertainment and I look forward to your fortnightly videos.
I had no plans to add signaling to my below-grade Dutch passenger line and station...but I might reconsider, provided I can get them in N-scale in the US (Phildie might be an option).
I have over 200 points that I all want to be finger operated to remove any confusion for operators when they come to play. I have not worked out yet how to reverse engineer a lever system from the tie bar on the point back to 2 switches. The issue is really only a main line one. One switch to cut DCC track power to stop an approaching main line train from blundering onto another that is either entering or leaving the main line. (A real issue that happens too quickly at times). The other switch to be DC for the green/red light. Autofrog can take care of polarity issues on electro frog points. Thank you for your continuing contribution to the hobby Charlie. (I meant to write this 2 weeks ago).
You've made awesome progress here. And you're actually making modern signalling make sense to a steam era modeller 😅 But Dapol has made junction signals in both upper and lower quadrant so that option is available :)
@@ChadwickModelRailway They are quite elusive. I'm just starting my signals so have been looking out for them. Darn expensive so might have to be an alternative!
Hi again Charlie. Just an operational observation. If your platform end starter signals are 2 aspect, you would need another signal before the one protecting the junction with the main line as you can't go from green to red. Hope that makes sense. 😎
Great video. What is needed is a comprehensive book on ground signals giving colours and positioning. I struggled to work out where to place them and what colours to use.
Awesome vid. The is a yellow and white shunting light at Weston-super-Mare. It's used for engineers trains coming of the bay platform onto the Mainline
@@ChadwickModelRailway also. You could get away with the feather for the 2 platforms, and a shunt signal for the yard. The shunting person in chare would tell you what siding to go down first. In this modern day, they pic up a radio so they can contact them. But in your ere. There was no radio contact. Lol
Hi Charlie. I remembered a site where they claim "The object of this site is to illustrate, and explain the meaning of, every signal indication or lineside sign that exists today or has existed in the past." Railway Signs and Signals of Great Britain The relevant part is: Section 3; Shunting Signals Page 4 of 4 [3.88] Position Light Shunting Signal with one Yellow Light ('on'). Area: All Areas Usage: High Status: Obsolescent Hope this helps.
Hi Charlie, first of all let me say that by no means am I an expert on signals but, looking at your starter signals leaving the platforms I think you may need a theatre on the platform 1 signal indication U (up) or D (down). I say this because trains enter the station on the UP line, and if leaving from 1 it will need to cross over to the DOWN. A straight green light may give the driver an indication he was departing back to the UP line.
Hi Charlie, IIf I may a couple of thoughts from a retired guard (albeit from the Midland region). The feather should be on the left as the main aspect is always for the main line regardless of the actual geography of the track. Yes the calling on signal to move trains into an already occupied track (like you're platform example) should have the light box indicator showing the route. Also, and very important YOU CAN NEVER show a green aspect if the next signal is going to be at danger, such as you're green aspect as the platform starter and the main line protection signal being at danger. Hope that adds to the confusion and many congratulations on 200 videos. Best wishes, Tony.
Hi, Also, yes there should be a figure in the theatre box to tell the driver which route they're signalled into when the position light is displayed. Cheers Graeme
Hi Charlie, Regarding your MP1 not having feedback. Instead of using the only switch to feed the frog have it throw a DPDT relay, and use one pole for the frog and the other for feedback.
I have learnt a lot about UK signaling from your channel and others. It's quite different here in the USA. Railways here don't use a feather or use route indicators on our signals. We also don't use 4 aspect signals. Good video as always. Bill from California, USA.
Hi Charlie, loved how realistic these signals are. Just bear in mind that when the signal clears permissively with the two white lights for your occupied platform, it does indeed require a platform number, so the driver knows where the unit is being sent and whether or not it will fit. (Source: am a driver who has frequently been signalled permissively into occupied platforms that did not have the required amount of space, usually as a result of a set swap onto a longer formation than was booked.) Additionally, yellow and white ground position lights are indeed a thing, just less common - slightly different but Harrogate is a good example of where black and yellow shunting discs are still in use for headshunts.
As to the position of the feather left or right. Your correct in your assessment it does not matter as such, what determines its position is what is defined as the straight route or main route. In your case I would say the feather goes on the left for the branch station. Ps I am an ex retired driver hope the info helps
No "train-knowledgeable" comment this time...just: Charlie, you have a great channel and I am so happy to have subscribed and continue to enjoy being a part of the experience..... just a superb job.
Hey Charley, An overall recap of the channel, the layout, your fleet and maybe a highlight real of your fave videos so far would be a good 200th video,
200 not out. Wow. You have inspired me to start my own model railway. I couldn't aspire to your level of expertise I don't think, but in my view you have a terrific style and technique to show novices what can be done. My advice to you Charlie is to stay fit and hea!thy so you can inform and entertain us for another 200. My particular interests are n gauge circa 1960 to 1985 (poetic licence for the 125's I travelled on to St Pancras) and the Midlands area including the miles of coal wagons on the Notts/Derbyshire coal field lines which I passed daily as a boy. Thanks Charlie..
Yellow and white is a passive shunt signal. Meaning you can pass it all of the time regardless for the headshunt, but only on double white for the entrance to the mainline or whatever line is being protected by the signal.
@@ChadwickModelRailwayadditionally, you wouldn’t need the ‘main’ aspect signal (the red and green one) if you’re only running goods traffic on that line. The yellow and white shunt is enough
Charlie I did some digging in my rulebook, this is taken from RS521 2.3 "When the straight route is obvious, there is normally no junction indicator provided for this route. Where there is no obvious straight route, a junction indicator will be provided for all signalled routes. Where the straight route is not the highest-speed route, the junction indicator will normally apply to the lower-speed route. Where the diverging routes ahead are both of equal speed, a junction indicator will be provided for each route. " Hope this clears it up😁
I'm a mainline driver in the uk, in my experience the junction indicator (feather) is for the diverging route. In your case the diverging route is the branch line station. As the double track mainline goes to the helix and is the main route. A junction indicator doesn't have any relation to whether the line curves or not. I understand aesthetically, especially on a model railway the feathers might look better pointing to the direction of the tracks that appear to diverge
Yet another both informative and entertaining video. I'm learning something new every time but I also realise there is so much more for me to learn. Thanks for sharing and I look forward to your bicentenary. Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪.
The SIGM20 can definitely operate complex Absolute Aspect signals. I have one 3 colour signal with 2 theatre boxes showing M & B in one and M,B & S is another. It also has a position light signal. Using 3 of the outputs on the SIGM20 I've automated this with the colours changing by block occupancy and the theatre lights and main signals changing according to the point settings for the Branch, Mainline and Siding . It took me about three hours to set this up using a virtual diverging junction signal (see the SIGM20 instruction manual) set to always red or always green. The AA signals have only one earth, but it works for signals and theatre boxes even if its only connected into the relevant first SIGM20 output connection. The setting of the points and the occupancy 100% determine automatically the correct setting of the signal (lights and theatre boxes). The SIGM20 has a simpler check box setting for feathers, but I can't use that, as far as I know, because the theatre boxes are not on/off types. The feather check box does not work when the signal is red, so its not useful for position lights. Cheers Charles
Many thanks for such an interesting comment Charles. I do own 2 Sigm20 and would like to contact you, when I install them. Could you possibly email me at Chadwick modelrailway @gmail.com. Regards, Charlie
Certainly keeps my interest alive Charlie. Not that much into signalling but it's great to follow all the logic behind it. Branch station looking to progress well. BTW just reviewed video 196 and those D couplings. Successfully modified four of my coaches with your help. It certainly was quite easy once I had done a couple of them. Thanks very much - excellent tutorial. Best wishes Kevin
Charlie, another inspirational video. You have set me thinking - 1. While not a railway professional, my understanding is that feathers are to indicate divergence away from the main line to a secondary route regardless of the actual geography of the track bed so left feathers on the "peg" at the start of the viaduct. 2. And now throwing in my two penneth, it would be great to see a few semaphores on the branch station - my suggestion is starter signals from the platforms with the remainder of the branch signals being "fairy" lights. I am sure that you can find an excuse to use single pole signals in the "prototype for everything" department. While everyone thinks that the West Country is solely the preserve of the God's Wonderful Railway camp, there are enough instances of branch lines in the West Country belonging to the Waterloo-based folk - in effect I am suggesting that the branch station could have been of Southern parentage. [P.S. the branch station on my layout is allegedly of LMS parentage so while the main line has fairy lights, the branch has an LMS-style box and a couple of LMS starter signals. Also I have reinforced the LMS parentage with some LMS style buildings.] 3. Unless you go down the road of fairy lights everywhere, you probably need a signal box at the junction with another one to control the branch - I very much doubt that one mechanical signal box would control both the junction and the branch station. My idea is leave the 'box on the main line where it is and make space for second box near the platform ends on the branch.
Current National Rail driver here weighing in on the questions. The feather on the viaduct should be for the lower speed route, not necessarily the physically diverging route, at least in modern practice. The theatre box signal. Really the aspect for the goods yard should really be using the subsidiary signal, not the main aspect for entering a yard. And yes, you should have a route indication when the subsidiary signal clears for permissive working. Yellow and white GPLs are very rare nowadays but do fit your time period. But the way they work doesnt fit how you want to use them. The idea is a driver can pass then at yellow at any time for authorised routes but for any other route they need to be cleared. In your situation you wouldn't have the main aspect. So the headshunt would be passed at yellow but the mainline would have to have the fully cleared white aspect. Aaah, signalling is a beast that so many modellers get vastly wrong
Hi Charlie, Yet another Great video glad to see the amount of little details your Putting into the layout. As many have commented when entering an occupied platform with the two white lights you should also get the route indicator, as for the goods siding you should only get a G indication with two white lights, as the points in the yard are hand operated and yellow signal would suggest they are set and locked in place which they wouldn't be, as well as this the yard would not have been track circuited and therefore must be presumed to be occupied. This would also be a reason to use the two white lights other the yellow which would tell the driver it is clear to the buffers. A possible extra signal might be a shunt signal on your exit line from the area, but facing into the station and yard, should you shunt a loco out the yard into a platform for example?? As for semaphore signalling, the era your modelling it would not be unusual to see a mix match of both colour lights and semaphores in the same area, but as well as that even tho your modelling the GWR area you would quite often see upper quadrant (mainly LMS style) signals too, as BR favoured this design and where GWR signals needed replacing they would likely get replaced by these. The signals at Shrewsburys would be worth looking into, as even today it is a perfect example of what it would have been like, it has a right mix and match of signal types.
Thanks Ben, your comment is much appreciated. I’m inclined not to go for the semaphores as I believe the station would need both home and distant signals at the end of both platforms. They would be reasonably hard to maintain and their solenoids would be an unknown quantity. Regards, Charlie
No worries, FYI when your starting away from a terminus you leave under caution even if the signal is green (this is if its two aspect), until you reach a signal that's able to display a caution aspect, so you could have either a two aspect signal or just a home arm.
Charlie, excellent information, on a subject which I have struggled with... but not any longer thanks to yourself, yeh I've read the books watched the films yet some how you cleared the fog away, thanks.. 200th gosh at 20 minutes a video that's 67 hours of learning and smiling, if I think of an idea, actually, what about showing a running session (accompanied, with others) bit of shunting, working around expresses and goods trains running on the main line etc.. just a thought. thanks Charlie
Junction indicators are provided to show that a train is being signalled to a route to the left or right of the straight route. A junction indicator is normally located above the signal, and will display a line of white lights when a proceed aspect is displayed. When the straight route is obvious, there is normally no junction indicator provided for this route. Where there is no obvious straight route, a junction indicator will be provided for all signalled routes. Where the straight route is not the highest-speed route, the junction indicator will normally apply to the lower-speed route. Where the diverging routes ahead are both of equal speed, a junction indicator will be provided for each route. All copied from the Rule book. Hope it helps
Hi Charlie, been away for a while. While there’s lots of prototypical advice, my go to books for modelling are C J Freezer’s Signalling an Nigel Digby’s Aspects of Modelling on the same topic. As a Digitrax guy also I’ve built SE8C boards and brought the connections out into RJ45 Ethernet sockets just that they were easy to swap if needed. Most of the stuff PM42, BDL now I put in a box with multi-wire connectors just so it’s easy to change them out or use them on an exhibition layout without having to buy than I need to ‘run’. I even have a full Digitrax ‘system a box’ which paid dividends at our last exhibition when the Lenz packed in and we were back up and running in a couple of minutes. Also the beauty of using JMRI on Raspberry Pi an WiThrottle/Engine Controller, no one had to change controllers.
Yes I believe that you should have a 2 in the indicator box, . If I'm able to get the right seat on the train coming home, I always look at the indicator box so I know what side the platform will be on😊 my local station is a dead-end and often has another train on the same platform.
Basic Ground Position Signals. Red/White or White/White are Stop and Proceed accordingly. Yellow/White or White/White can both be passed legally. Yellow proceeds the Red of the stop block, White shows clearance onto a running line.
Charlie, many congratulations on your upcoming 200th. There’s hardly been one I haven’t learnt something from, so much thanks for all your hard work. Lawd, if you’re struggling with wiring there’s no hope for me! And as for giving priority to local passenger services over freight trains, are you absolutely sure you spent time trainspotting at Swindon 50 odd years ago?
Thanks TB, I’m so pleased that you’re enjoying the journey. I look back on my train spotting days, and so wish that I could have them back. There was so much detail that I ignored and now I desperately seek. Coach configurations, loco colour schemes, even the dates when I logged them, all gone! Regards Charlie
One mates a driver, one’s a signalman, they never agree and as a result for ages my signals were placed with blue tack as one or the other would move them! Now I put them where I think looks right. 😂
I used to be a driver on district and met lines i remember signalmen at barking and baker st were lets just say (in the nicest possible way) a pain in the ar%e 😄
Hi Charlie, interesting video, if you wanted more contacts from your 2 new points motors, you could always drive a relay from the point motor, and select the relay with the number of contacts you require.
Charlie as an old signalman with Queensland Rail, the main signal always pertained to the main running road so for your signal Number 1 the main running road is over thru the crossover towards the helix so the feather would have be to the left into the station area. This would also advise the traincrew to slow down as they were approaching a yard and not continuing on with mainline track. Of course the crossover would have a reduced speed that would possible be displayed on a speed board with an arrow showing the speed pertained to the diverging track towards the crossover. The worst of all this is there always was an exception to the rule but I can't think of where that exception would occur.
Charlie, thank you for another really thought provoking video on signalling. I have just swapped from the old Peco point motors to the DCC Concepts IP Digital motors, and have just got them to control my signals on which line is "active", and thought, I was nailoing it. You have just blown me out of the water, and now back to the learning curve. Anyway, thank you for sharing, as always it is really interesting, and I look forward to your videos. Cheers, and stay safe, Michael
And the Train-tech kit version is GK4. I have installed the red version, GK2 and found it quite straightforward. Congratulations on the upcoming video 200!
From personal experience the TT gps's are easy to assemble, scale sized and good value for money if their design suits your location, I shall have to bite the AA bullet at some stage! Also, I believe, the feather illuminates first and then you are given the aspect, not being professional railwayman this is information I've been given from a driver.
@@ChadwickModelRailway yes, but you realise, take your plan, identify each task, with it's solution, check your solution, doesbit move to my objective, if yes, get on with it. Nonsuch a nightmare. Just patience persistence, and a little bloody mindedness!!! . Take care,regards Patrick ( possible target fixation, beng more polite!!
Yes with the cats eyes (position light) would have the 1 or 2 lit! Everything inside your yard exit signal could be hand operated! As for your platform signal, you need a three aspect signal or if you are going to use the two aspect version, it needs to be red and yellow. Otherwise if you have a signal protecting the junction, it will need a distant signal to be able to stop at it.
Hi Charlie just watched this video, in answer to the question about yellow and white ground signals at your head shunt i believe ground disc signal's would be used with a yellow bar on a white back ground. Have also seen a yellow bar on a black background which had a permanent spot light on them. As you are modeling a branch terminus i think this would be more appropriate than colour light signals The way this signal would work is that if its on your train can pass it in to the head shunt. And If it is off this means your train can leave the yard but as it is a shunting signal it is under caution as the next signal may be red or, there may be an obstruction.
awesome video Charlie in australia on yard exits which lead out to the main Line where theres head shunts the signal controllining head shunts or mainline moves they have a shunt signal .that shows yellow for the mainline moves and a blue light for the stop indecation ..but trains moving into the head shunt can move pass the blue stop indication.cause the blue light means no meaning when moving into the head shunt .but these signal are in australia but not sure about the uk
Point of issue 3. Yes, a shunt signal can be yellow and white for a headshunt, which means you can pass it if you are going up the headshunt. But if you are leaving the yard, then displaying one yellow and white light is a stop light. This can also be a black and yellow shunting disc signal instead of red and white
Warmest congratulations on reaching 200!! Signals I find are an absolute nightmare. I use semaphores which We had built for the layout, these being working N gauge signals commissioned by us and built by the wonderful genius who also built the signals for Liverpool Lime Street exhibition layout. I need to add ground signals and was amazed to find that I needed a vast number to follow the correct plans. So I have an utterly impossible task of finding someone who makes working ground semaphore signals in N Gauge. At least in OO there are a choice of manufacturers to select from. Like me Charlie, as close to the prototype is important, but sometimes I wish all those years ago we had not decided to do an actual prototype. Cheers, Bob
Hi Charlie - love the videos, I’m an ex S&T engineer and have found some pages in a book about your yellow shunt signals. I will scan them and send them to you somehow. As someone else has said the feather route indicators are for the low speed routes so the fastest route would not have a feather.
Many thanks Keith, however, I think I have all the info I need so I won’t need your scans. That’s a great advice from drivers et cetera. You gave me great clarity. Regards Charlie.
Charlie thanks once again for yet another great video. I just cannot understand how you keep your patience when sorting out the wiring on your layout never mind the signalling!! Fantastic video. Have really enjoyed all the developments up to now and look forward to your next instalments. Cheers.
OMG this video has just set me off on the path of block signaling, thank you for opening the pandoras box of control by signals . I hope there will be another one to let us know how you got on with the two controllers shown in the last few minutes . For your 200th video how about a retrospective of the progress to date or even better a blooper video to show you are human like the rest of us
Charlie, in answer to your route indicator with a call on, yes it should also display number 2 as it reminds driver which platform he’s going towards, head-shunt ground-position light is correct being yellow&white for passing head shunt, two white at 45 degrees for route out
In that particular situation, local instructions could say that a slow heavy class 9 freight coming up from the tunnel would have priority over a class 2 passenger train off the branch, as it would avoid the difficult start of a heavy train up the gradient.
Congratulations on the upcoming 200. Many years ago when I was on the footplate, we had a job at Taplow where we had a ground signal yellow and white lights to access the headshunt. When it came to return to Slough we got two white lights to proceed out on the main line. There was no main aspect signal.
Hi Charlie... another great video! One of the things I have always loved about your videos is your willingness and enthusiasm to change things when you have a better idea (sometimes quite dramatically!) . As a suggestion ( accepting this might be more difficult than it appears ), it would be great to have that evolution of where you started to where you are now in a single video. I remember watching your first videos some while back and the layout is now a million miles away from that tail chasing MPD layout!!!
Hi Charlie, A fascinating look at signalling a layout, so much to consider, the route indicator looks amazing. I think your 200th video should include a good running session as suggested in other comments as you appear to have plenty of stock that we never see moving, some funny moments and best bloopers, your videos are always very entertaining with great content, it's also good that you show mistakes and how to rectify them, looking forward to the next milestone. Regards, David.
As an ex=signaller, I would expect to see the main aspect used for the 'primary' route and feathers for a 'secondary' route, irrespective of the geography and which way the lines go. Yes I would expect to see a number in the route indicator when using the calling on signal, as this would allow the driver to confirm that he is being signalled into a platform that has enough room for his train. If platform 1 was full, and he got a call on into that platform, he should refuse to take the signal and contact the signaller to clarify. This assumes he can see both platforms from the signal. It would also help hime to drive correctly, as there may be different speed restrictions over the two routes. The headshunt signal would be similar to the light shown on the left side of the Absolute Aspects page you show at 13:56, or you later show yourself, but would have a yellow light where the one shown has a red light. For headshunt moves the light would show a horizontal yellow/white aspect. For moves out on to the mainline, the signal would show 2 diagonal white lights. You wouldn't need a main aspect signal. The junction protection signal leaving the branch isn't strictly necessary, given how close the station is to the junction. The starting signals on the platforms and the goods yard exit signal would be interlocked with the junction points to prevent them from being cleared if the route wasn't available. However, if you want to exercise a bit of poetic license and imagine that there was a greater distance involved, then a junction protection signal is absolutely fine.
Hi Charlie, just one thing. On the main line, I would have an approach Sighal before the main at the signal box. In Australia, we use letters such as M, L, R.
I use a yellow & white ground signal on my exhibition layout in exactly the same concept providing access to yard headshunt. This was advised by one of my friends who is a network rail signal engineer. Like you, I've yet to find a real one but nobody has picked me up on it...yet! Would love to see an intensive running session for the 200th episode and watching the computer interaction/automation. Thanks for all the great videos, really enjoy watching them.
Another top video Charlie. I may have mentioned in other comments that I'm still in the planning stage but seeing this video on signalling is epic for its sharing of knowledge of different signalling types. All good info for me to rethink my wiring options including points, building lights and maybe the odd UFO passing over head. Many thanks for sharing as always Charlie, we live and learn.
Hi Charlie. Thanks for another excellent video. As regards the yellow ground signals if you read Simon Paley’s excellent book on colour signalling for Railway modellers, look at p 51 there is a picture of W1163 at Chessington South, near where I live. He says that they are now obsolete. Simon explains their use and why they are no longer used. Hope this helps.
Thanks for another great video Charlie. I've only just started looking at signalling on my layout - so much food for thought! Looking forward to episode 200. How about a bit of an extended running session to see more of your locos on the layout?
How real are you going to have your signalling and.. how will you enforce correct train operation at those signals? I'm guessing that you want "full automation" so that eventually you can sit back and just watch it all happen... but, that seems like a museum-type of operation. Back to having real operators and back to my question of enforcing correct operation... Will signals be positioned as if they can be seen by tiny operators in the locomotives, or be visible by Giant "line-side" operators? John
That’s an interesting question John. I expect a computer program to control the signals for the scenic trains. However it then comes down to the operators, when they move there trains. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, yet another great video. I have limited knowledge about signalling personally I would of thought the signal at the Nrth end of the viaduct would have the feathers on the right (position 4) but I bow to superior knowledge, none the less always look forward to your videos for a novice like me they give such valuable advice & help
Hi Charlie, another great video. As a current signaller and ex driver I’d like to try and help you with your questions. Regarding which side the feathers are on, it would usually be the physically straight route, however it can be the secondary route, this would depend on speed across the junction. A good example is Balham on the down Brighton slow lines. The physical straight (or almost straight) route is on to the down Crystal Palace lines via Streatham hill and the main lines bare to the right, yet the signal on Balham down slow platform has a left feather. So the short answer is it’s perfectly reasonable that you have a left feather on your junction signal facing the branch station. The yellow and white ground position light or semaphore shunt signal would be appropriate for your head shunt. Basically when the signal is ‘on’, the yellow light would be shown, this is in the same position as the red light on a normal shunt signal. So it would show yellow and white together, this would allow the train to run past it towards the head shunt. Any train that was to go on to the main line would have to stop and would get the two diagonal white lights to take it onto the main (branch) line. There would be no need for a main signal. If you want a main signal then the main signal would be for the main line and an associated position light (two white lights) would be for the head shunt. It depends whether you think the head shunt needs to be signalled. That would depend on the area. Finally I have to point out that your starter signals at the platforms and if you decide to have a main aspect to leave the goods yard MUST be 3 aspect, because you can never have a green that is before a red. As you are going to have a signal protecting the junction coming from the branch station, you do not have room for a repeater or distant signal, the starter signals on the platform would have to be 3 aspect. I.E. if the junction signal was at danger the starter would show a yellow, if the junction signal was showing a proceed then the starter would show a green. The final signal taking you to the platforms or the goods yard would show the route indication even when the position light was showing and I think there would only be a position light to go into the goods yard. Whew! Hope that helps!!
Paul you are clearly bang on the money. I’ve also require the signals handbook RS - 521, which throws a great deal of light onto this subject. Thanks again buddy, regards, Charlie
Oh my! The big 200th Video is imminent!.. What to do, what to do?... Well... Might I suggest a couple-a-rounds of toasted roast beef, swiss cheese and wholegrain mustard on sourdough rye sandwiches and nice big bucket of tea to celebrate the event? Well done Charlie... It's been a grand journey so far.. I'm looking forward to what comes next.. oh... and don't forget the half dozen or so mince fruit tarts as a desert.
Congratulations on the 200th Video upcoming. You asked for suggestions, and I have two. On my layout I have a train schedule for a "Standard Operations Day". My layout not being automated, I simply run all the trains myself and the standard day was created by using actual timetables, so it is pretty accurate. I do use JMRI Operations Pro to create the trains and create the switching lists, so it does not come off as stale and provides some challenges. All of this to simply say suggestion 1, do you have a standard operations day built yet and if so, why not run it for us. Suggestion 2, which is much more lighthearted, how about a gag reel and bloopers reel that chronicles all 199 past videos? We all seem to love self-deprecating humor.
Hi Charlie. Train driver here. Section 2.3 in the RSSB Handbook RS521, Signals, Handsignals, Indicators and Signs states the following:
“Junction indicators are provided to show that a train is being signalled to a route to the left or right of the straight route.
When the straight route is obvious, there is normally no junction indicator provided for this route.
Where there is no obvious straight route, a junction indicator will be provided for all signalled routes.
Where the straight route is not the highest-speed route, the junction indicator will normally apply to the lower-speed route.
Where the diverging routes ahead are both of equal speed, a junction indicator will be provided for each route.”
An absolute epic quote Phil, and one of which I’m most grateful. Regards, Charlie
Yes although technically correct this is based on modem signalling practices. Back in the 60/70 and early 80s the approach was different
@@Llamberg.RailwayAs I was too young to work in the 70s and 80’s, unfortunately I can only go by what I know but thanks for the historical context.
Hi Charlie I’m an active train driver regarding ground position light signals displaying yellow aspect these are stop signals applying to movements in the direction to which the signal can be cleared other movements can pass the signal without it being cleared therefore the signal showing a yellow aspect and a white aspect the movement is cleared for the shunt neck when the same signal shows 2 white lights at 45 degrees the movement is cleared for mainline however this will also mean that the train needs to be able to stop at the next main aspect signal or it’s coming on top of another train the type of signal you need is a yellow and white light both lit and when the signal is changed the yellow light goes out and shows 2 white lights at 45 degrees hope this helps I’ve got photos in my rule book don’t think I can add the to the comments.
Thanks Mark, I fully understand that.
However, coming in from the mainline you will pass the unlit side of the signal. I’m wondering what the signal might show and does it matter anyway.
Regards Charlie
Bloopers, out-takes etc from early days (if you have them still) and an extended running session would be my vote!
You’re bang on the money, GD. Regards, Charlie
Hi this is an excellent video, I am a former Movements Inspector (Someone who passes out a signalman that is capable of working a specific Signal Box). Like many you have got confused with the issue of catch points, trap points and safety points. Catch points are at the bottom of inclines and are normally in the trailing position to derail runaway wagons. Trap points protect a siding adjoining a running line to make sure anything in the siding cannot get onto the running line and are open in the facing direction. Yours is a safety point to protect something from escaping from a private siding onto the main lines and would be worked from the signal box.
Thanks Andrew, much appreciated.
Could not a private line, have its access locked of without signal box intervention?
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, Some Private Sidings had a gate which could be unlocked by a key but this was dependent on the layout. Where a Safety point is used then it could be controlled via a ground frame by the train crew but in your situation it would be done by the signalman if the distance was up to the legal limit of 350 yards for a mechanically worked point or further if it is electrically operated. In some instances where a ground frame is used that could be electrically released from the Signal Box.
The situation concerning the Junction Indicator on the signal is slightly more complicated it would be dependent on factors such as line speed etc. In your example as a former Movements Inspector my opinion is that the Junction Indicator would go to the left, even though the Main to the right curves would have no influence on this as it is a through route. If the Main has a speed restriction of greater than 10 mph from the lead over the viaduct then you would have a Junction Indicator for both routes.
Your ground signal would have a yellow (bottom Left) and a white (bottom right) to indicate access to the head shunt is allowed but to get onto the main line the yellow light would go out and an additional white light above and at 45 degrees would be required to authorise a train to go onto the main line. Before the Signalman could reverse the lever for the ground signal the points would have to be reversed first to enable the ground signal lever to be unlocked.
In the Signal Box you pull the Point levers from the exit point towards the train and the signals in the order the train will pass them. Hope this helps but feel free to come back with any other questions you have.@@ChadwickModelRailway
Thanks Andrew for some intriguing details. Regards Charlie
Bloody hell Charlie...can't believe they make these signals in HO now! As a signal electrician of 20 yrs , it's amazing to see these in the model form! We call "Feathers" Junction route indicators "JRI' s and the JRI will ALWAYS show the divergent path , so if the main goes to the left, the JRI will point right. We have them in from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock positions and you can have all if you need them! I change lamps in them all the time! The Number indicator is called a "Stencil" or Theatre down here in Australia and so cool to see a model one! You will (mostly) always get a yellow with a JRI or Theatre aspect unless high speed turnouts are used.
Very nice work and cool to see.
Cheers Gregg.
Hi Gregg, the fantastic folk at Absolute Aspects are now doing the multiple aspect signals, with Route Indicators, and ground shunting signals in N Gauge - they’re works of art.
I’m so pleased that you found interesting, Gregg. However, our diverging signal, points to the lower speed track! Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Hi Charlie, yes , I meant whichever is the lower speed route , to the left in your case.🙂
Your dedication to authenticity is admirable! The operational complexity boggles the minds of those of us who just had figures of eight in the early 1960s.
Every day is a school day, Michael, even when you were our age! Regards, Charlie
To keep it simple Charlie, if the train is in passenger service, an indication of route is required (a junction indicator or platform No.) If proceeding into an occupied platform on a position light. If it is an ECS move, as drivers we can take just a position light and proceed as far as the line is clear, being prepared to stop short of any obstructions.
Thanks Paul, I must confess I’ve learned a great deal about the subject since I released this video! Regards, Charlie
@ChadwickModelRailway Morning Charlie,
I'm sure you have. I guess us drivers take our signalling knowledge for granted.
I am an Instructor Driver and Route Assessor aswel as a run of the mill driver for GWR at Exeter. I sign Paddington to Penzance, and everywhere in between, including your kneck of the woods from Exeter to Castle Cary via Yeovil Jcn and Pen Mill as a diversionary route. As you can imagine, we work over all sorts of signalling systems from Semaphore, Single Line TCB, Tokens, Staffs, and of course MAS colour light, so please pick my brains if there is ever anything you need and I will put my 33 years service into some good use for you hopefully.
All the best, Paul
Enjoyed the video Charlie and great to see you are taking the signalling seriously. I hope it wasn’t only me that mentioned the catch / trap point. I wasn’t pasting you sorry if it came across that way. I think you once mentioned you worked on helicopters well you know more about railways than I know about helicopters and you’ve pretty much nailed it on this video.
Regarding feathers (correctly junction indicators) the indicator is for the route that diverges from the main route. In your case a No.1. The main route being to the helix.
Route indicators (slang = theatre boxes) are found where the line speed is slower. This is because it takes a driver longer to process the information they contain than just seeing the “flash” of a feather (flash being another slang term for a junction indicator). Let’s not get too far into signal sighting which is a whole different chapter of railway knowledge 🤣 Depending on your line speed coming off the curve onto the viaduct you could simply use a theatre type route indicator. M for helix, 1 or 2 for your dead end platforms. This would be 3 aspect green or yellow with M for M aim line (helix) yellow with 1 or 2 for your platforms.
That signal would also have position lights beneath the main aspect for movements towards the occupied dead ends. Position lights would still need a 1 or 2 route indication for the permissive (already occupied) platforms but position lights and no theatre indication would be for the goods sidings. So no need for a G indication.
A yellow ground signal would work for movements from the goods to the head-shunt, yellow and white horizontally displayed. This is the normal position for this type of signal, allowing for movements towards the headshunt with no involvement from the signaller. Only when a movement is to leave the goods sidings for the main line do you need the 2 whites at 45 degrees which the signaller sets. This allows for shunting into the neck without the signaller having to constantly set the signal which he would have to if it were a standard red/white ground signal. You don’t want the RMT on your back demanding better pay for the signaller because he’s never got chance for a brew🤣🤣
There would need to be a further main aspect stop signal beyond this yellow white ground signal before any conflict point with a junction though. Not sure if your track layout allows for this.
By all means send me the plan and I’ll signal it for you.
Best wishes
Paul (mainline train driver).
Thanks Paul, for an in-depth response. With similar advice from your colleagues, I think I’ve cracked it now. It’s great to have you onboard. Regards Charlie
Yellow/white ground position signal -
You can pass these in the on position as long as the line is set for the route that the signal cant clear.
Meaning you can pass the signal in the on position as long as the points are set into the headshunt.
For going out onto the mainline, you have to obey that signal in the normal manner.
As for route indicators, they are normally for a lesser route, you usually have the main aspect for the more ‘important’ /faster route
Thanks E. 1992, much appreciated. Regards, Charlie
Hi (youngish) Charles.
My goodness, after watching this, am I glad I opted to continue with my station duties at BR's Wimbledon (1970s) and not apply for a second-man position that would lead up to being a train driver. If that had happened, I would probably have been stationed at Clapham Junction (the world's largest junction), Wimbledon Park depot or, Waterloo (remember the Clapham rail disaster?). That being the case, a mental breakdown would almost certainly have ensued as during rush hours, Wimbledon Station saw trains arriving only 2mins apart in either direction. It just goes to show that signalling is the single most important aspect (no pun intended) of running a railway service. God help the commuters if it ever goes wrong.
Paul. 👍❤
A great and honest confession, Paul. Regards, Charlie
You are very lucky that you have such availability of advisors that actually have a good understanding and experience with real railroad service..Thanks for sharing..
Yes Frankie, I’m enormously grateful to all my subscribers who bring along sound advice. Regards, Charlie
Charlie, great vid. Yes, you need a number 2 in the theatre indicator along with the red main aspect and the cats eyes below it.
Thanks Mike, much appreciated.
Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailwayJust don’t ask me about the yellow position light ground signals, I’ve no idea! 😂
Don’t forget wiring diagrams… red to orange, orange to white and blue to bits! 🫣 Another nice episode Charlie. Look forward to see how you get on installing those. ✌🏻👍🏻🇬🇧
Thanks Stephen, we all do look a challenge. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, to answer your question - you would get the platform number and position light to advise the driver to travel at caution as their is another train in section. Chris
All understood Chris, regards Charlie
Here a Spanish Signalling System Engineer! 🙋🏻♂️ loving your vids Charlie!
I’m so pleased you enjoyed my videos mate. Regards, Charlie
G'day Charlie, Thank you for your informative videos and congratulations on your 200th video. Your content is always helpful and i look forward to every new video you release . My modeling is based on queensland railways here down under in Australia. I worked for QR when i was 15 years old as a bridge nipper until i left qr aged 23 but have many fond memories. I am now a retired 61 year old and have embraced our magnificent hobby now that i have spare time. My lovely wife Jenny seems ok with this until the hair dryer or hair spray makes its way into the train shed and i have forgotten to return them. Anyway Charlie please keep up the high standzrds that you produce. Cheers from Graeme from downunder.
Thanks Graeme, it’s great to have you on board mate. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, the answer to your question regarding feathers or junction indicators as they are formally known, put simply is that the route with the higher speed and most obvious straight route will be the main route, not necessarily a 'main line', it will be the most obvious straight route or one with the highest speed, this route will use just a colour aspect on it's own and the route or routes with the lower speeds will use junction indicators to the left or right and a proceed aspect, which ever way they diverge from the main route.
No1 being the second fastest or of most notable geographic importance to the left and No.4 being the same to the right, if there are more then they drop down in order.
Where speeds are the same or no obvious straight route can be defined then both routes will use a junction indicator along with a proceed aspect to the left and right, displaying either a No1 or a No4 with a proceed aspect for one of the chosen routes for example.
There's also the flashing yellow sequences, but I'll not bore you with those 😁
There's always some areas that will just stray and do things randomly but this is the main way it is done and is rule book defined.
The full rule can be found online within RSSB RS521 signals, Hand signals, Indicators and Signs.
Rule 2.3.
For working permissively it all depends on the type of permissive work authorised in that area, found in the Network Rail Sectional Appendix as to what should be displayed and how to operate there.
The Signaller will know how to signal a train using it's headcode.
If it's passenger permissive working then a route should be displayed in the route indicator (theatre box) when in passenger service, when empty stock you can proceed without anything in the route indicator, you would usually be in contact with the signaller in this scenario to gain verbal instruction of destination point if it's into a multi permissive platform.
The yellow/white shunting signals have largely been replaced with standard red/white now but there are still a fair few knocking around and are found in signalled sidings at the exit with a headshunt.
Basically when yellow/white is displayed you can pass the signal but only into the headshunt, when cleared you are authorised to pass and proceed at caution onto the main line as far as the line is clear, stopping short of a signal, train, obstruction or buffer stop, same meaning when a standard red/white position light is cleared but obviously when not cleared the red/white is at danger.
If using the standard red/white position light you would also need a mini route indicator box with it if using it for more than one route.
So a yellow one, if only two routes used would be simpler and cheaper probably and still in keeping.
They were used to help the signaller in not having to constantly clear a signal for headshunt use as this would no doubt be used a lot by shunting locos in a siding.
If using two aspect signalling that only shows red and green, your next signal in advance cannot display a red as you cannot go from green to red, you have to be cautioned before a red.
Hope this helps, sorry for rabbiting on.
Driver up in the North West of England.
Great video as always 👍
All great info, Rob, and very much appreciated mate. Stay safe, regards, Charlie
Dare I ask for a blooper reel appended to video 200?
Rest assured , I have a few to add in! Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie you are spot on with your program on TT120 I think as a 70 year old model railway follower ex exhibitor in n guage 30 years ago (*I have a mass of 00 guage now ) the idea of Simon is flawed badly and will hurt them in the future.
Simon K, has now bailed out of Hornby Christopher. Let’s hope that they can now do better.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie. Current train driver here.
Agree that the branch line would have the diverging 'feather' as usually this would have a lower speed or priority at the junction.
Also, if entering a station on position lights I would expect a platform number if multiple platforms.
Your solution to the Goods line departure signal is good, however if the position light is associated with a main aspect then it doesn't need to be illuminated all the time, only when required for a shunting movement. A departure onto the mainline just needs a main aspect.
Tim B.
Thanks Tim, good info, and most much appreciated. Regards, Charlie
Brilliant signal and layout Charlie
Thanks Mels, much appreciated. Regards, Charlie
Charlie, I enjoy watching your videos. you asked about the signal on approach to the station and the platform having another train in the platform, the signal will display a RED and the position lights also the platform number, this is known as "permissive working" in railway terms.
Thanks Philip, you’re bang on the money. Regards, Charlie
Hello there. Cracking video, as always. FYI, sharing a platform with another train is called 'Permissive Working'.
Thanks Andy, yes I’ve got that one, but it only took me 64 years to figure it out. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie,
Re: the gpls for the headshunt. They were identical to the normal ones, but instead of a red they have a yellow aspect. This would be placed before the headshunt points and control all movements.. with a white/yellow indication (on), the train can use the headshunt. When cleared to 2 whites, the train accesses the main line you don't need a main aspect. Also, your station starters will need to be 3 aspects, as you cannot go from a green to a red, if the junction is not cleared from the branch station.
On the inbound signal, yellow with 1 or 2 indicator is right, but the freight yard needs to be accessed using the subsidiary signal & G. You cannot enter yards or sidings on a main aspect And as you rightly said, the subsidiary signal would need a route description for permissive working.
We are bang on the money on this one. However, I need to buy another double three aspect signal. Gulp. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Sorry for more outlay Charlie. But signals can always find new homes on a layout.
@ChadwickModelRailway cam you go red, Amber at a platform like this? I am certain that the branch line at oxenhome (for windermere) is a two aspect, red/yellow but that's going down the branch, not back onto the west coast main line
Hey Charlie, The feather usually follows the diverging branch of the point because when the feather is not illuminated when the highest speed route is indicated. So if you have a left hand point, you would use a left hand feather. Right hand point, use a right hand feather. Looking at 1:56 the problem is with your track, you are using right hand points to send the mainline down the diverging line, I think normally using a left hand point to branch off to the station and allowed the mainline to continue straight at higher speeds with it then curving off to the right. With your viaduct though that probably wouldn't have fit. I think the solution you want here is to put a speed restriction on the viaduct side before the points, making both the mainline and the branch line the same or similar speeds at that junction, then use both left and right junction indicators on the signal. When the route is into the station, you would illuminate the left feather, when the route is on the main line, you would illuminate the right feather. There are best practices but things are taken on a site specific basis usually. On another note, I think down line signals are usually odd numbered and the up line are even numbered. Its looking good though!
Thanks Oorail, what a great solution.
Regards Charlie
If the curved line is the mainline then the feather has to be for the straight line coming out of the point. So for a right-hand point the feather would point to the left.
But in this case the station is the diverging route. Going by what I was taught as a mainline driver
Also, your point about the points is incorrect. For example, I sign from Ipswich to Peterborough. At Ely the line diverges to the left (at least to the eye of a non railwayman) and the other line goes straight on to Kings Lynn. But it's the king's Lynn line that has the junction indicator. If turning left at Ely north towards Peterborough you get no indication at all, just a main aspect.
That’s very interesting, David. Are the two lines, the same speed, or is the main line faster? Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, I'm a driver on the midland main line, to put a spanner in the works at trent junction on the down main line the signal protecting the diverging junction, Derby/Nottingham lines the signal has 2 route indicators on no1 for Derby and no4 for Nottingham in other words you need a route indicator whether you're going left or right, also if you get the cats eyes on a signal protecting a station you would also get the platform number as well. Lee
Thanks Lee. At the junction, are the speeds the same for both routes?
Regards Charlie
Always cool to see the signals wired in--rather the point of all the wiring effort up front.
And, as an overseas observer, always interesting to see the differences in how the track signals are set up.
Thanks captain Mac, it’s a bewildering subject. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, in answer to a couple of your questions: if a subsidiary signal is used for permissive working (eg: a train going into an occupied platform), it depends on what day of the week the signalling was installed. Sometimes the theater box would display the platform number, in other locations it may not.
With regards to your headshunt, I think you have this wrong. You could dispense with the main aspect signal and use a subsidiary that would display either two yellows (horizontally) to allow movement into the headshunt or two whites diagonally to allow access to the main line.
An earlier version of the shunt signal has four lights, although I cannot remember how the lights are set out. An example exists at Mountfield sidings on the Hastings line.
Semaphore disc signals were yellow and black.
Many thanks and you are bang on the money. I have bought and fitted the headshunt signal you described, and included it in a latter video.
Regards Charlie.
Great video as always. With regards to a yellow/white ground position light, the definition of it is:- STOP. May be passed at danger for movements in the direction to which the signal, when cleared, does not apply. That means that a train may pass a yellow/white signal without the Signalman's permission towards the headshunt, but would require the signal to display two white lights to enter the main line at caution
Yes Derek, I found this information in the signals handbook RS521.. It’s a godsend. Regards Charlie
Charlie, congratulations on reaching 200. It seems like only yesterday you were trying to figure out how Tortoise switch machines works, with that box of 20 in your living room.
Thanks Earl, yes time certainly does fly at our age! Regards, Charlie
Another interesting video thanks Charlie. The least you could have done was installed a level crossing with working gates and protecting lights to make it more complicated for yourself. Seriously, before the feather, a junction would have had two separate lights at the junction, one for the left and one for the right and they would have existed in the time period you are covering. I am so pleased you make your life easy, it provides excellent entertainment and I look forward to your fortnightly videos.
Thanks Don, every day is a school day in our world. Regards, Charlie
I had no plans to add signaling to my below-grade Dutch passenger line and station...but I might reconsider, provided I can get them in N-scale in the US (Phildie might be an option).
I always think they’re worthy addition. Regards, Charlie
I have over 200 points that I all want to be finger operated to remove any confusion for operators when they come to play.
I have not worked out yet how to reverse engineer a lever system from the tie bar on the point back to 2 switches. The issue is really only a main line one. One switch to cut DCC track power to stop an approaching main line train from blundering onto another that is either entering or leaving the main line. (A real issue that happens too quickly at times). The other switch to be DC for the green/red light. Autofrog can take care of polarity issues on electro frog points.
Thank you for your continuing contribution to the hobby Charlie. (I meant to write this 2 weeks ago).
Thanks Robin, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the channel. Good luck with your challenges. Regards Charlie
You've made awesome progress here. And you're actually making modern signalling make sense to a steam era modeller 😅
But Dapol has made junction signals in both upper and lower quadrant so that option is available :)
Thanks GW but I can’t find them on their website. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway They are quite elusive. I'm just starting my signals so have been looking out for them. Darn expensive so might have to be an alternative!
Hi again Charlie. Just an operational observation. If your platform end starter signals are 2 aspect, you would need another signal before the one protecting the junction with the main line as you can't go from green to red. Hope that makes sense. 😎
Yes it does Les, I’ll get 3 aspect ones.
Regards Charlie
Great video. What is needed is a comprehensive book on ground signals giving colours and positioning. I struggled to work out where to place them and what colours to use.
I totally agree, Richard, it’s a real challenge. Regards, Charlie
Awesome vid. The is a yellow and white shunting light at Weston-super-Mare. It's used for engineers trains coming of the bay platform onto the Mainline
Thanks Robiin, it’s a confusing riddle concept. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway also. You could get away with the feather for the 2 platforms, and a shunt signal for the yard. The shunting person in chare would tell you what siding to go down first. In this modern day, they pic up a radio so they can contact them. But in your ere. There was no radio contact. Lol
Hi Charlie. I remembered a site where they claim "The object of this site is to illustrate, and explain the meaning of, every signal indication or lineside sign that exists today or has existed in the past."
Railway Signs and Signals of Great Britain
The relevant part is:
Section 3; Shunting Signals
Page 4 of 4
[3.88] Position Light Shunting Signal with one Yellow Light ('on').
Area: All Areas Usage: High Status: Obsolescent
Hope this helps.
Thanks, Peter 95, I shall try and check it out. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, first of all let me say that by no means am I an expert on signals but, looking at your starter signals leaving the platforms I think you may need a theatre on the platform 1 signal indication U (up) or D (down). I say this because trains enter the station on the UP line, and if leaving from 1 it will need to cross over to the DOWN. A straight green light may give the driver an indication he was departing back to the UP line.
That’s an interesting observation, but I haven’t found an example of it in reality. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie,
IIf I may a couple of thoughts from a retired guard (albeit from the Midland region).
The feather should be on the left as the main aspect is always for the main line regardless of the actual geography of the track. Yes the calling on signal to move trains into an already occupied track (like you're platform example) should have the light box indicator showing the route.
Also, and very important YOU CAN NEVER show a green aspect if the next signal is going to be at danger, such as you're green aspect as the platform starter and the main line protection signal being at danger.
Hope that adds to the confusion and many congratulations on 200 videos.
Best wishes, Tony.
Thanks Tony, much appreciated. I’ve been sent quite a few yellow calling on signal surprisingly. Regards, Charlie
Hi,
Also, yes there should be a figure in the theatre box to tell the driver which route they're signalled into when the position light is displayed.
Cheers Graeme
Thanks Graeme , I’ve learned that the hard way! Regards
Hi Charlie, Regarding your MP1 not having feedback. Instead of using the only switch to feed the frog have it throw a DPDT relay, and use one pole for the frog and the other for feedback.
Now there’s an interesting suggestion James. Regards, Charlie.
Hi Charlie. I would agree that the feather would normally be for the lower speed route, at least in my own experience as a driver. 😎
You’re bang on the money Les,
regards Charlie
I have learnt a lot about UK signaling from your channel and others. It's quite different here in the USA. Railways here don't use a feather or use route indicators on our signals. We also don't use 4 aspect signals. Good video as always. Bill from California, USA.
Thanks Bill, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting in our antiquated system. Regards Charlie
@ChadwickModelRailway I didn't think it was antiquated. I was thinking, hay, if it works for the UK, great!
Hi Charlie, loved how realistic these signals are. Just bear in mind that when the signal clears permissively with the two white lights for your occupied platform, it does indeed require a platform number, so the driver knows where the unit is being sent and whether or not it will fit. (Source: am a driver who has frequently been signalled permissively into occupied platforms that did not have the required amount of space, usually as a result of a set swap onto a longer formation than was booked.)
Additionally, yellow and white ground position lights are indeed a thing, just less common - slightly different but Harrogate is a good example of where black and yellow shunting discs are still in use for headshunts.
Thanks N2883, we sing from the same song sheet on this one. Regards, Charlie
As to the position of the feather left or right. Your correct in your assessment it does not matter as such, what determines its position is what is defined as the straight route or main route. In your case I would say the feather goes on the left for the branch station. Ps I am an ex retired driver hope the info helps
It is very much LR. But also the speed of the two routes has an impact as well. Regards, Charlie
No "train-knowledgeable" comment this time...just: Charlie, you have a great channel and I am so happy to have subscribed and continue to enjoy being a part of the experience..... just a superb job.
Thank you Kevin for such a heartwarming comment. Regards, Charlie
Hey Charley,
An overall recap of the channel, the layout, your fleet and maybe a highlight real of your fave videos so far would be a good 200th video,
Thanks Luke, I shall certainly consider your points. Regards, Charlie
200 not out. Wow. You have inspired me to start my own model railway. I couldn't aspire to your level of expertise I don't think, but in my view you have a terrific style and technique to show novices what can be done. My advice to you Charlie is to stay fit and hea!thy so you can inform and entertain us for another 200. My particular interests are n gauge circa 1960 to 1985 (poetic licence for the 125's I travelled on to St Pancras) and the Midlands area including the miles of coal wagons on the Notts/Derbyshire coal field lines which I passed daily as a boy. Thanks Charlie..
Thanks Jeff, and I do hope you enjoy my 200th video. Regards, Charlie
Yellow and white is a passive shunt signal. Meaning you can pass it all of the time regardless for the headshunt, but only on double white for the entrance to the mainline or whatever line is being protected by the signal.
Great information mate, and much appreciated. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailwayadditionally, you wouldn’t need the ‘main’ aspect signal (the red and green one) if you’re only running goods traffic on that line. The yellow and white shunt is enough
Charlie I did some digging in my rulebook, this is taken from RS521 2.3
"When the straight route is obvious, there is normally no junction
indicator provided for this route.
Where there is no obvious straight route, a junction indicator will be
provided for all signalled routes.
Where the straight route is not the highest-speed route, the junction
indicator will normally apply to the lower-speed route.
Where the diverging routes ahead are both of equal speed, a junction indicator will be provided for each route.
"
Hope this clears it up😁
Yes David it did, much appreciated. Regards, Charlie
I'm a mainline driver in the uk, in my experience the junction indicator (feather) is for the diverging route. In your case the diverging route is the branch line station. As the double track mainline goes to the helix and is the main route.
A junction indicator doesn't have any relation to whether the line curves or not. I understand aesthetically, especially on a model railway the feathers might look better pointing to the direction of the tracks that appear to diverge
I’m with you on this one David. Many thanks, regards, Charlie
Yet another both informative and entertaining video. I'm learning something new every time but I also realise there is so much more for me to learn. Thanks for sharing and I look forward to your bicentenary. Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪.
Thanks Anders, I’m so pleased that you’re joining me on my journey. Regards Charlie
Yeah, it's a case of the more you learn the less you know! 🙂
Well done Charlie
Thanks John for joining me on the journey. Regards, Charlie
Wow. I love what you are achieving but my head is spinning. A little daunting for someone who is about to start on this journey next year 😊
Not to worry, Rod, every day is a school day. Regards, Charlie
The SIGM20 can definitely operate complex Absolute Aspect signals. I have one 3 colour signal with 2 theatre boxes showing M & B in one and M,B & S is another. It also has a position light signal. Using 3 of the outputs on the SIGM20 I've automated this with the colours changing by block occupancy and the theatre lights and main signals changing according to the point settings for the Branch, Mainline and Siding . It took me about three hours to set this up using a virtual diverging junction signal (see the SIGM20 instruction manual) set to always red or always green. The AA signals have only one earth, but it works for signals and theatre boxes even if its only connected into the relevant first SIGM20 output connection. The setting of the points and the occupancy 100% determine automatically the correct setting of the signal (lights and theatre boxes). The SIGM20 has a simpler check box setting for feathers, but I can't use that, as far as I know, because the theatre boxes are not on/off types. The feather check box does not work when the signal is red, so its not useful for position lights. Cheers Charles
Many thanks for such an interesting comment Charles. I do own 2 Sigm20 and would like to contact you, when I install them. Could you possibly email me at Chadwick modelrailway @gmail.com. Regards, Charlie
Certainly keeps my interest alive Charlie. Not that much into signalling but it's great to follow all the logic behind it. Branch station looking to progress well. BTW just reviewed video 196 and those D couplings. Successfully modified four of my coaches with your help. It certainly was quite easy once I had done a couple of them. Thanks very much - excellent tutorial. Best wishes Kevin
Thanks Kevin, I’m so pleased that you found your modifications successful. Regards, Charlie
3:42 "Resistor strike rates" well that is one inventive way to explain LED voltage drops etc.
Yes, Paul, that was a new one on me until an electronics wizard explained it. Regards, Charlie.
Charlie, another inspirational video. You have set me thinking -
1. While not a railway professional, my understanding is that feathers are to indicate divergence away from the main line to a secondary route regardless of the actual geography of the track bed so left feathers on the "peg" at the start of the viaduct.
2. And now throwing in my two penneth, it would be great to see a few semaphores on the branch station - my suggestion is starter signals from the platforms with the remainder of the branch signals being "fairy" lights. I am sure that you can find an excuse to use single pole signals in the "prototype for everything" department. While everyone thinks that the West Country is solely the preserve of the God's Wonderful Railway camp, there are enough instances of branch lines in the West Country belonging to the Waterloo-based folk - in effect I am suggesting that the branch station could have been of Southern parentage. [P.S. the branch station on my layout is allegedly of LMS parentage so while the main line has fairy lights, the branch has an LMS-style box and a couple of LMS starter signals. Also I have reinforced the LMS parentage with some LMS style buildings.]
3. Unless you go down the road of fairy lights everywhere, you probably need a signal box at the junction with another one to control the branch - I very much doubt that one mechanical signal box would control both the junction and the branch station. My idea is leave the 'box on the main line where it is and make space for second box near the platform ends on the branch.
Thanks TRMC, for an interesting comment. I am on the hunt for semaphores so I’ll keep you posted. Regards Charlie
Current National Rail driver here weighing in on the questions.
The feather on the viaduct should be for the lower speed route, not necessarily the physically diverging route, at least in modern practice.
The theatre box signal. Really the aspect for the goods yard should really be using the subsidiary signal, not the main aspect for entering a yard. And yes, you should have a route indication when the subsidiary signal clears for permissive working.
Yellow and white GPLs are very rare nowadays but do fit your time period. But the way they work doesnt fit how you want to use them. The idea is a driver can pass then at yellow at any time for authorised routes but for any other route they need to be cleared. In your situation you wouldn't have the main aspect. So the headshunt would be passed at yellow but the mainline would have to have the fully cleared white aspect.
Aaah, signalling is a beast that so many modellers get vastly wrong
Great advice, Dave, and I think this time I’m bang on the money, hopefully! Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, Yet another Great video glad to see the amount of little details your Putting into the layout.
As many have commented when entering an occupied platform with the two white lights you should also get the route indicator, as for the goods siding you should only get a G indication with two white lights, as the points in the yard are hand operated and yellow signal would suggest they are set and locked in place which they wouldn't be, as well as this the yard would not have been track circuited and therefore must be presumed to be occupied. This would also be a reason to use the two white lights other the yellow which would tell the driver it is clear to the buffers.
A possible extra signal might be a shunt signal on your exit line from the area, but facing into the station and yard, should you shunt a loco out the yard into a platform for example??
As for semaphore signalling, the era your modelling it would not be unusual to see a mix match of both colour lights and semaphores in the same area, but as well as that even tho your modelling the GWR area you would quite often see upper quadrant (mainly LMS style) signals too, as BR favoured this design and where GWR signals needed replacing they would likely get replaced by these.
The signals at Shrewsburys would be worth looking into, as even today it is a perfect example of what it would have been like, it has a right mix and match of signal types.
Thanks Ben, your comment is much appreciated. I’m inclined not to go for the semaphores as I believe the station would need both home and distant signals at the end of both platforms. They would be reasonably hard to maintain and their solenoids would be an unknown quantity. Regards, Charlie
No worries, FYI when your starting away from a terminus you leave under caution even if the signal is green (this is if its two aspect), until you reach a signal that's able to display a caution aspect, so you could have either a two aspect signal or just a home arm.
always a great day when Charlie posts! Great to see the channel growing! ❤
Thanks scary, I’m so pleased that you enjoy it. Regards Charlie
Charlie, excellent information, on a subject which I have struggled with... but not any longer thanks to yourself, yeh I've read the books watched the films yet some how you cleared the fog away, thanks.. 200th gosh at 20 minutes a video that's 67 hours of learning and smiling, if I think of an idea, actually, what about showing a running session (accompanied, with others) bit of shunting, working around expresses and goods trains running on the main line etc.. just a thought. thanks Charlie
You’re on the money Vic. I do hope that you enjoy the video. Regards, Charlie
Junction indicators are provided to show that a train is being signalled to a route to the left or right of the straight route.
A junction indicator is normally located above the signal, and will display a line of white lights when a proceed aspect is displayed.
When the straight route is obvious, there is normally no junction indicator provided for this route.
Where there is no obvious straight route, a junction indicator will be provided for all signalled routes.
Where the straight route is not the highest-speed route, the junction indicator will normally apply to the lower-speed route.
Where the diverging routes ahead are both of equal speed, a junction indicator will be provided for each route.
All copied from the Rule book. Hope it helps
Great information, Mark, and I certainly was unaware of the speed issue. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, been away for a while. While there’s lots of prototypical advice, my go to books for modelling are C J Freezer’s Signalling an Nigel Digby’s Aspects of Modelling on the same topic. As a Digitrax guy also I’ve built SE8C boards and brought the connections out into RJ45 Ethernet sockets just that they were easy to swap if needed. Most of the stuff PM42, BDL now I put in a box with multi-wire connectors just so it’s easy to change them out or use them on an exhibition layout without having to buy than I need to ‘run’. I even have a full Digitrax ‘system a box’ which paid dividends at our last exhibition when the Lenz packed in and we were back up and running in a couple of minutes. Also the beauty of using JMRI on Raspberry Pi an WiThrottle/Engine Controller, no one had to change controllers.
I think you need to be congratulated Steve on building such a workable solution. Regards, Charlie
Yes I believe that you should have a 2 in the indicator box, . If I'm able to get the right seat on the train coming home, I always look at the indicator box so I know what side the platform will be on😊 my local station is a dead-end and often has another train on the same platform.
There’s nothing like the real thing, Mike. Regards, Charlie.
Basic Ground Position Signals.
Red/White or White/White are Stop and Proceed accordingly.
Yellow/White or White/White can both be passed legally. Yellow proceeds the Red of the stop block, White shows clearance onto a running line.
Thanks Holly, I’ve now found all the reference material. Regards, Charlie
Great video, always found the signals a complicated subject, and yes bloopers would be brilliant , and congratulations 🎉 too.
Thanks Ian, it’s great to have you on board. Regards Charlie
Charlie, many congratulations on your upcoming 200th. There’s hardly been one I haven’t learnt something from, so much thanks for all your hard work.
Lawd, if you’re struggling with wiring there’s no hope for me!
And as for giving priority to local passenger services over freight trains, are you absolutely sure you spent time trainspotting at Swindon 50 odd years ago?
Thanks TB, I’m so pleased that you’re enjoying the journey. I look back on my train spotting days, and so wish that I could have them back. There was so much detail that I ignored and now I desperately seek. Coach configurations, loco colour schemes, even the dates when I logged them, all gone!
Regards Charlie
I feel exactly the same charlie ...great site too 😅
One mates a driver, one’s a signalman, they never agree and as a result for ages my signals were placed with blue tack as one or the other would move them! Now I put them where I think looks right. 😂
I used to be a driver on district and met lines i remember signalmen at barking and baker st were lets just say (in the nicest possible way) a pain in the ar%e 😄
Hi Charlie, interesting video, if you wanted more contacts from your 2 new points motors, you could always drive a relay from the point motor, and select the relay with the number of contacts you require.
Text Kieth, that’s an interesting option. Regards, Charlie
Charlie as an old signalman with Queensland Rail, the main signal always pertained to the main running road so for your signal Number 1 the main running road is over thru the crossover towards the helix so the feather would have be to the left into the station area. This would also advise the traincrew to slow down as they were approaching a yard and not continuing on with mainline track. Of course the crossover would have a reduced speed that would possible be displayed on a speed board with an arrow showing the speed pertained to the diverging track towards the crossover. The worst of all this is there always was an exception to the rule but I can't think of where that exception would occur.
Thanks CR, your experience is much appreciated. Regards Charlie
Charlie, thank you for another really thought provoking video on signalling.
I have just swapped from the old Peco point motors to the DCC Concepts IP Digital motors, and have just got them to control my signals on which line is "active", and thought, I was nailoing it.
You have just blown me out of the water, and now back to the learning curve.
Anyway, thank you for sharing, as always it is really interesting, and I look forward to your videos.
Cheers, and stay safe, Michael
Thanks Michael, and those point motors, are a sound investment. Regards, Charlie
I was watching McKinley railway vids and lo and behold I see your name as editor! You are quite the videographer. Nice work.
Thanks Scott, David is an incredible source of knowledge.
Regards Charlie
And the Train-tech kit version is GK4. I have installed the red version, GK2 and found it quite straightforward. Congratulations on the upcoming video 200!
Thanks Steve, I’ve tracked down the GS2, and believe that’s the white and yellow version. Some appear to be self assembly kits. Regards, Charlie
From personal experience the TT gps's are easy to assemble, scale sized and good value for money if their design suits your location, I shall have to bite the AA bullet at some stage!
Also, I believe, the feather illuminates first and then you are given the aspect, not being professional railwayman this is information I've been given from a driver.
Thanks Mike, and you’re right, the feather does illuminate slightly earlier. Regards, Charlie
Thank you very much for your excellent explanation on signalling, 11th August. Patrick
You’re most welcome Patrick, but it is a minefield. Regards, Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway yes, but you realise, take your plan, identify each task, with it's solution, check your solution, doesbit move to my objective, if yes, get on with it. Nonsuch a nightmare. Just patience persistence, and a little bloody mindedness!!! . Take care,regards Patrick ( possible target fixation, beng more polite!!
Yes with the cats eyes (position light) would have the 1 or 2 lit! Everything inside your yard exit signal could be hand operated! As for your platform signal, you need a three aspect signal or if you are going to use the two aspect version, it needs to be red and yellow. Otherwise if you have a signal protecting the junction, it will need a distant signal to be able to stop at it.
Thanks CR, you’re bang on the money. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie just watched this video, in answer to the question about yellow and white ground signals at your head shunt i believe ground disc signal's would be used with a yellow bar on a white back ground. Have also seen a yellow bar on a black background which had a permanent spot light on them. As you are modeling a branch terminus i think this would be more appropriate than colour light signals The way this signal would work is that if its on your train can pass it in to the head shunt. And If it is off this means your train can leave the yard but as it is a shunting signal it is under caution as the next signal may be red or, there may be an obstruction.
Thanks Jamier, that makes perfect sense. Regards Charlie
awesome video Charlie in australia on yard exits which lead out to the main Line where theres head shunts the signal controllining head shunts or mainline moves they have a shunt signal .that shows yellow for the mainline moves and a blue light for the stop indecation ..but trains moving into the head shunt can move pass the blue stop indication.cause the blue light means no meaning when moving into the head shunt .but these signal are in australia but not sure about the uk
Different colours, Christopher, but exactly the same principle. Regards, Charlie
Point of issue 3. Yes, a shunt signal can be yellow and white for a headshunt, which means you can pass it if you are going up the headshunt. But if you are leaving the yard, then displaying one yellow and white light is a stop light. This can also be a black and yellow shunting disc signal instead of red and white
Yes you’re dead right mate. And I have one on order. Regards, Charlie
Great episode Charlie. always fun to watch.
Thanks mate, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Warmest congratulations on reaching 200!! Signals I find are an absolute nightmare. I use semaphores which We had built for the layout, these being working N gauge signals commissioned by us and built by the wonderful genius who also built the signals for Liverpool Lime Street exhibition layout. I need to add ground signals and was amazed to find that I needed a vast number to follow the correct plans. So I have an utterly impossible task of finding someone who makes working ground semaphore signals in N Gauge.
At least in OO there are a choice of manufacturers to select from.
Like me Charlie, as close to the prototype is important, but sometimes I wish all those years ago we had not decided to do an actual prototype.
Cheers, Bob
Thanks Bob for an excellent comment mate. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie - love the videos, I’m an ex S&T engineer and have found some pages in a book about your yellow shunt signals. I will scan them and send them to you somehow. As someone else has said the feather route indicators are for the low speed routes so the fastest route would not have a feather.
Many thanks Keith, however, I think I have all the info I need so I won’t need your scans. That’s a great advice from drivers et cetera. You gave me great clarity. Regards Charlie.
Charlie thanks once again for yet another great video. I just cannot understand how you keep your patience when sorting out the wiring on your layout never mind the signalling!! Fantastic video. Have really enjoyed all the developments up to now and look forward to your next instalments. Cheers.
Thanks John, I’m so pleased that you found the video interesting. Regards Charlie
OMG this video has just set me off on the path of block signaling, thank you for opening the pandoras box of control by signals . I hope there will be another one to let us know how you got on with the two controllers shown in the last few minutes . For your 200th video how about a retrospective of the progress to date or even better a blooper video to show you are human like the rest of us
Rest assured John, there will be a mixture. Regards, Charlie
Charlie, in answer to your route indicator with a call on, yes it should also display number 2 as it reminds driver which platform he’s going towards, head-shunt ground-position light is correct being yellow&white for passing head shunt, two white at 45 degrees for route out
Thanks, tricky, sound advice. Regards, Charlie
In that particular situation, local instructions could say that a slow heavy class 9 freight coming up from the tunnel would have priority over a class 2 passenger train off the branch, as it would avoid the difficult start of a heavy train up the gradient.
That’s an interesting point. Well worth considering. Regards, Charlie
Congratulations on the upcoming 200. Many years ago when I was on the footplate, we had a job at Taplow where we had a ground signal yellow and white lights to access the headshunt. When it came to return to Slough we got two white lights to proceed out on the main line. There was no main aspect signal.
Yes, I discovered that’s exactly right. I’ve acquired the signals handbook. RS - 5 to one. It’s all in there, regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie... another great video! One of the things I have always loved about your videos is your willingness and enthusiasm to change things when you have a better idea (sometimes quite dramatically!) . As a suggestion ( accepting this might be more difficult than it appears ), it would be great to have that evolution of where you started to where you are now in a single video. I remember watching your first videos some while back and the layout is now a million miles away from that tail chasing MPD layout!!!
Thanks Al, this 200 video does seem to growing! Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, A fascinating look at signalling a layout, so much to consider, the route indicator looks amazing. I think your 200th video should include a good running session as suggested in other comments as you appear to have plenty of stock that we never see moving, some funny moments and best bloopers, your videos are always very entertaining with great content, it's also good that you show mistakes and how to rectify them, looking forward to the next milestone. Regards, David.
All points noted David.
Regards Charlie
As an ex=signaller, I would expect to see the main aspect used for the 'primary' route and feathers for a 'secondary' route, irrespective of the geography and which way the lines go. Yes I would expect to see a number in the route indicator when using the calling on signal, as this would allow the driver to confirm that he is being signalled into a platform that has enough room for his train. If platform 1 was full, and he got a call on into that platform, he should refuse to take the signal and contact the signaller to clarify. This assumes he can see both platforms from the signal. It would also help hime to drive correctly, as there may be different speed restrictions over the two routes. The headshunt signal would be similar to the light shown on the left side of the Absolute Aspects page you show at 13:56, or you later show yourself, but would have a yellow light where the one shown has a red light. For headshunt moves the light would show a horizontal yellow/white aspect. For moves out on to the mainline, the signal would show 2 diagonal white lights. You wouldn't need a main aspect signal. The junction protection signal leaving the branch isn't strictly necessary, given how close the station is to the junction. The starting signals on the platforms and the goods yard exit signal would be interlocked with the junction points to prevent them from being cleared if the route wasn't available. However, if you want to exercise a bit of poetic license and imagine that there was a greater distance involved, then a junction protection signal is absolutely fine.
My thoughts exactly Dell boy. I think we’re bang on the money, regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, just one thing. On the main line, I would have an approach Sighal before the main at the signal box. In Australia, we use letters such as M, L, R.
An interesting and sensible alternative Mike. Regards, Charlie
I use a yellow & white ground signal on my exhibition layout in exactly the same concept providing access to yard headshunt. This was advised by one of my friends who is a network rail signal engineer. Like you, I've yet to find a real one but nobody has picked me up on it...yet!
Would love to see an intensive running session for the 200th episode and watching the computer interaction/automation.
Thanks for all the great videos, really enjoy watching them.
Thanks crocodile, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Points noted for the next episode, regards, Charlie
Traintech used to do a yellow/white position light signal. Pretty good wee signals.
And mine should be delivered today Eddie. Regards, Charlie
Another top video Charlie. I may have mentioned in other comments that I'm still in the planning stage but seeing this video on signalling is epic for its sharing of knowledge of different signalling types. All good info for me to rethink my wiring options including points, building lights and maybe the odd UFO passing over head. Many thanks for sharing as always Charlie, we live and learn.
Thanks Anthony, every day is a school day in this hobby. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie. Thanks for another excellent video. As regards the yellow ground signals if you read Simon Paley’s excellent book on colour signalling for Railway modellers, look at p 51 there is a picture of W1163 at Chessington South, near where I live. He says that they are now obsolete. Simon explains their use and why they are no longer used. Hope this helps.
Many thanks for the tip, I shall have a look around at Model Railways shows. Regards Charlie
Thanks for another great video Charlie. I've only just started looking at signalling on my layout - so much food for thought! Looking forward to episode 200. How about a bit of an extended running session to see more of your locos on the layout?
What an excellent suggestion mate. Yes, I will certainly give some locos a good dusting off! Regards, Charlie
How real are you going to have your signalling and.. how will you enforce correct train operation at those signals? I'm guessing that you want "full automation" so that eventually you can sit back and just watch it all happen... but, that seems like a museum-type of operation. Back to having real operators and back to my question of enforcing correct operation... Will signals be positioned as if they can be seen by tiny operators in the locomotives, or be visible by Giant "line-side" operators? John
That’s an interesting question John. I expect a computer program to control the signals for the scenic trains. However it then comes down to the operators, when they move there trains. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, yet another great video. I have limited knowledge about signalling personally I would of thought the signal at the Nrth end of the viaduct would have the feathers on the right (position 4) but I bow to superior knowledge, none the less always look forward to your videos for a novice like me they give such valuable advice & help
Thanks Simon, but it appears that route, speeds or a major player in this equation. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, another great video. As a current signaller and ex driver I’d like to try and help you with your questions. Regarding which side the feathers are on, it would usually be the physically straight route, however it can be the secondary route, this would depend on speed across the junction. A good example is Balham on the down Brighton slow lines. The physical straight (or almost straight) route is on to the down Crystal Palace lines via Streatham hill and the main lines bare to the right, yet the signal on Balham down slow platform has a left feather. So the short answer is it’s perfectly reasonable that you have a left feather on your junction signal facing the branch station. The yellow and white ground position light or semaphore shunt signal would be appropriate for your head shunt. Basically when the signal is ‘on’, the yellow light would be shown, this is in the same position as the red light on a normal shunt signal. So it would show yellow and white together, this would allow the train to run past it towards the head shunt. Any train that was to go on to the main line would have to stop and would get the two diagonal white lights to take it onto the main (branch) line. There would be no need for a main signal. If you want a main signal then the main signal would be for the main line and an associated position light (two white lights) would be for the head shunt. It depends whether you think the head shunt needs to be signalled. That would depend on the area. Finally I have to point out that your starter signals at the platforms and if you decide to have a main aspect to leave the goods yard MUST be 3 aspect, because you can never have a green that is before a red. As you are going to have a signal protecting the junction coming from the branch station, you do not have room for a repeater or distant signal, the starter signals on the platform would have to be 3 aspect. I.E. if the junction signal was at danger the starter would show a yellow, if the junction signal was showing a proceed then the starter would show a green. The final signal taking you to the platforms or the goods yard would show the route indication even when the position light was showing and I think there would only be a position light to go into the goods yard. Whew! Hope that helps!!
Paul you are clearly bang on the money. I’ve also require the signals handbook RS - 521, which throws a great deal of light onto this subject. Thanks again buddy, regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, I can send you an e-copy of that for you if you wish. Also any other rule book modules you may want. Let me know. Cheers. Paul
That’s most kind Paul but I’m pretty sure that I have the info that I need.
I have RS-521 in paper form.
Regards Charlie
Oh my! The big 200th Video is imminent!.. What to do, what to do?... Well... Might I suggest a couple-a-rounds of toasted roast beef, swiss cheese and wholegrain mustard on sourdough rye sandwiches and nice big bucket of tea to celebrate the event? Well done Charlie... It's been a grand journey so far.. I'm looking forward to what comes next.. oh... and don't forget the half dozen or so mince fruit tarts as a desert.
I think you’re right, let’s get the party started! Regards, Charlie
Congratulations on the 200th Video upcoming. You asked for suggestions, and I have two. On my layout I have a train schedule for a "Standard Operations Day". My layout not being automated, I simply run all the trains myself and the standard day was created by using actual timetables, so it is pretty accurate. I do use JMRI Operations Pro to create the trains and create the switching lists, so it does not come off as stale and provides some challenges. All of this to simply say suggestion 1, do you have a standard operations day built yet and if so, why not run it for us. Suggestion 2, which is much more lighthearted, how about a gag reel and bloopers reel that chronicles all 199 past videos? We all seem to love self-deprecating humor.
Both are on the agenda Greg. Regards, Charlie