Viewers have asked for a Video explaining how Scientology Auditing (Counseling) works. So we interviewed Trey Lotz who is no longer part of Scientology, but still delivers private counseling using Scientology procedures and he has been doing this for over 50 years. We hope you find this discussion informative. Thanks for watching.
Thank you so much for bringing Trey on. A veritable gem. I have been an auditor since 1978, it is still refreshing to get another viewpoint. I had some realizations , so hurrah!
21:43 Very few statements are more true than this one. 30:06 This is an excellent point that I never forgot. Janis earlier said that Hubbard was great when doing research but was horrible to be around when he was on management lines. That fits precisely. At 41:52 Learned this years ago and figured that if you can precisely form a question, you can find the answer.
Thank you Janis and Mark. You are the only chanel that I know nowadays that gives a voice to those who have something positive to say about Scientology’s tech. Its important because thats part of Scientology too. Thank you for this. To be fair it would be great to have interviews from people from the public who actually did Scientology services as well. Nowadays we learn a lot from former Sea org members and the abuses they went through. They are very important testimonies. Occasionnally we also hear of staff members but testimonies from the public itself is something that is missing imho. So thanks for discussing auditing today by inviting Trey People deserve to know about that aspect too 👌🙏🧡
36:03 At this time stamp there is a sound in the middle of Trey speaking. Not a word, a sound, like a dripping faucet “sswipt”. What is that? Again at 37:00, 46:00, 47:00.
I grew up outside of Utica , NY. Hamilton is a great college. I wish I knew the name of Trey’s band. I’m younger but I might have heard of them. Great show. As usual.
@@gretch1966 Here's one of their songs! The Roosters, I Wanna Do It There are some pics of the band. Trey, is lead guitarist. ua-cam.com/video/kC6gUNmvIwg/v-deo.htmlsi=sxoRGgMp-hT96r2-
All three of you seem like loving kind caring people that can understand that some people believe to benefit from auditing. I wish the environment online was less volatile to have a real discussion from your points of view on the processes discussed effects on children.
Scientology auditing isn't something I am interested in trying, but Trey Lotz seems like a cool guy. It is amazing how the church with all of its abuses and sec checking and crush regging and slick, cringe inducing marketing can make it seem so singularly unappealing. Then this guy can talk about it for an hour, and it's like "yeah, good for him, some of that makes sense, it doesn't sound any more ridiculous than psychotherapy." It is almost like official scientology is trying to drive people away from scientology on purpose.
Good one... will U be doing more with Homer and Disconnection? that interview seems it could go on longer. Thanks for your effort to get better Understanding @ th subject...
7:55 Was that Freddy Crivello AKA Freddy Foos? The best damned foosball player ever? What I learned from him allowed me, with no practice in between, to beat good young players 35 years later.
Intresting to see people who buy into this nonsense explain it fr. Their point of view. It's important to get this point of view to understand the draw of rhe cult and why people don't easily drop it. Thanks for this
@@jamiemiesler322Find someone in your environment who was long and successfully involved and be courteous and ask sincere questions and give them the benefit of the doubt. Set any preconceived ideas aside for the time of the interview and do your best to understand. Entertain the idea that you might not know the whole story.
@jamiemiesler322 same thing happens with things like the book the secret and all religions they can all be wrong but at most one is possibly right. People derive benefit sure and attribute it to things other than themselves. Life coaches are a excellent example make big bux offering empty platitudes that resonate broadly. It's human nature to be susceptible to this sort of thing. Hubbard was a perfect fit for his time. It's telling the guest still reffered to him as a engineer with some reverence
@@gregnietsky how much actual study of the subject did you have before coming to the conclusion that it was nonsense? I mean, actually the subject itself rather than secondhand information?
I met Trey in ‘72 when he brought a client in to the LA Org to attest to completion of a Grade Chart level. I thought this was the way to go - help people independently WITHOUT reliance on the STUPID machinations of Hubbard’s organizational folly. Would like to know the long term results of his clients that did NOT get training inside orgs and did NOT do the confidential levels. Also, TRs are not necessary to for a client. Did Trey have his clients do TRs? What is Trey’s opinion of Objective Processing? Specifically CCHs and Opening Procedure by Duplication? Does he know anyone who is stably exterior? Does he know anyone who is at cause, knowingly and at will over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space and time, subjective and objective?
I love using the word "compartmentalization" when talking about auditing and Hubbards techniques. Spot on! The human mind is an abstract and trying to compartmentalize it can help a bit and hurt a lot.
So, out-tech was originally meant to point out what went wrong with the auditing and not what was wrong with the person being audited? Did I get that right? The cans seems an intentional barrier to real human interaction. It's almost sad.
the early auditing was no meter. As auditing expanded , Hubbard and his crew at the time theorized that all this emotional charge might show up on a sensitive electrical resistance meter. Like your body has a natural balance of electrical energy, and maybe mental mass (ie, when a person feels like crap etc) might interfere with this natural flow. Well it worked out, Hubbard had lots of people to help work out the details, and it was fortuitous for scn that a physical meter went along to help validate the work of the auditor. Scn was supposed to be a modern scientific approach to helping uplift the mind of man, and the meter turned out to be an effective tool. The problems of scientology are not technical, it does a fine job at what it does; the problems are administrative. The technical side works well enough, you just follow the tech, but the admin exists to deliver the tech, and the admin is subject to individual interpretation. The admin is the fact of the organization, way the organizations are run, and its leadership. That being said, you can still do what they call "book one auditing", (dianetics) with no meter. It is faster and more effective to use a meter. I got a lot of auditing, and when working with Hubbard at LaQuinta in the 70s, with Hubbard doing the auditing supervision, I got to the point where I really did not need auditing, it was too easy for me, unlike Janis when said she looked forward to daily sessions. Hubbard actually took me off auditing "until he gets keyed in again" (until i felt the need for relief). The more difficult thing for me was leaving the organization, I liked the purpose, uplifting the spirit of man , but when I left in 1982 it seemed the right thing to do at the time. Auditing can get rid of a lot of the mental blocks getting in the way of the goal of spiritual freedom, kind of undercuts "karma" which is kind of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Since I am on a roll here, I will tell you what scn is missing - god, love and forgiveness. It kind of bumps in to god in a lot of ways, but never really lays it out, in scn you have to find on your own way to god, which is what my quest has been. If disconnection (an administrative action) could be replaced with those (or at least love and forgiveness), a lot of the problems with scn would resolve. I could go on and on; I would like to have an open forum on if scn is fixable and how, we might do that one day. There are a lot of really smart people involved here. Trey mentioned this early on, he is very astute, we either come from (are a part of) god, or all this is just physical.
As a children my brother and myself were put on the cans after completing a course. I was told " your needle is floating" even though i sometimes had little understanding on what i had been doing. In my opinion the training routines were abusive.
The explanation given applies to Scientology up to about 1967. I suspect that Trey also does the upper levels, maybe not. Perhaps it will be covered in the next interview. The desensitization techniques described were eventually abandoned by Hubbard in his hopeless quest for higher states of being. Certainly they are addictive as pointed out by Janis, and there is no real evidence that they have lasting benefit. But with all that said, kudos to Trey for explaining it simply and thoroughly. These lower-level wins are indeed the glue that sticks people to Scientology even when all else is lost.
They are not addictive at all. It's a poor choice of words on Janis' part and I think she would agree in reviewing this conversation. There isn't any auditing that results in greater dependency on another or on auditing itself. All auditing results in an increase of self determinism or it isn't auditing. These techniques were never abandoned; they are amongst the fundamentals of good auditing and always will be. I contest your view that there isn't any real evidence that these have any lasting benefit. Unless you want to completely disregard the wins of thousands of people past and current who have dramatically improved their lives and the lives of others with this counseling. Trey indeed did well with his explanation. Bruce, these processes are instead more the solvent that releases the glue that sticks people to the losses and regrets in their lives.
They are not addictive at all. It's a poor choice of words on Janis' part and I think she would agree in reviewing this conversation. There isn't any auditing that results in greater dependency on another or on auditing itself. All auditing results in an increase of self determinism or it isn't auditing. These techniques were never abandoned; they are amongst the fundamentals of good auditing and always will be. I contest your view that there isn't any real evidence that these have any lasting benefit. Unless you want to completely disregard the wins of thousands of people past and current who have dramatically improved their lives and the lives of others with this counseling. “These lower-level wins are indeed the glue that sticks people to Scientology even when all else is lost.”? I feel that these processes are more the solvent that releases the glue that sticks people to the losses and regrets in their lives.
@@danlocke4904 Well, Dan, we don't agree and probably never will. But I will try to unpack my argument a little more so you can see how I arrive at it. Scientology is indeed like an onion. Whether it is simply an ineffable divinity at the center, final level or just a lingering stench depends on how you unpeel it. Hubbard certainly seems to have thought that there really was a state of Clear, and the first book is supposed to be a manual on how to achieve it. No one has ever achieved the state of Book One clear, no colds, eidetic memory and so on. However, maybe we can take this as a stage in a process and not the endpoint. In fact, Hubbard soon lost control of the original organizations that grew up around Book One and embraced the Bridey Murphey craze. i have an old photo of my stepfather holding a newspaper with a Bridey Murphy article. So maybe this explains the issues with Book One. Even bizarrely including prenatal memory, biologically impossible, the techniques do have a finite result. At some point all the engrams have been reduced and voila - no reactive mind. Bridey Murphy blows that idea to shreds. If we have lived many lives, we now have many thousands or even millions of engrams to reduce per life. And possibly millions or trillions of lives! This led Hubbard to a manifold ever-changing therapy regime, trying everything from guided imagery (creative processing) to objectives to repetitive questions to the Rock. All unworking. Still no Real Clears. This gets us up to the 60s. Things got too hot for Hubbard and he had to flee to the high seas. At some point he decided Clear was good but not great and went on to the OT levels. I personally know nothing about that other than what I have read, even after 40 years in Scientology I was not even Clear when I escaped the Sea Org. But from what I have heard it seems that Hubbard went on pursuing the Aleister Crowley quest for superpowers all the way to his death. No success. All that said, could he have developed a working psychotherapy that actually helps people, even if his ultimate aim was beyond his reach? You say yes and I say no. I have audited hundreds of hours of lower-level processes and have received hundreds of hours. I think I was on folder 50 or so when I left. I have had lots of mind-blowing, seemingly life-changing wins. My PCs also have sometimes had floating TAs and went on for half an hour telling me all about it. I made three Dianetic Clears according to the C/S. It all seemed great at the time, looking back not so much. Part of this is simply confirmation bias, an issue in all religions and forms of therapy. If you are sure that accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour will change your life, and that gives you the confidence to ask for a raise, and you get it, praise the Lord! The same thing might happen after a blow-out session or a really good visit to a psychic. The placebo effect is real and does work. That doesn't mean that Scientology works or that it doesn't work. The issue is just that there are no peer-reviewed double-blind studies that show that it works. Which is my basic point. Beyond that, something about the basic structure of Scientology therapy seems inherently off. It is not true at all that the e-meter can show spiritual or mental changes. It can only show their effects in the body. See my essay in Mike Rinder's blog "What about the E-Meter?". But what if it does show stress etc. and this can guide a therapist? Wouldn't that be helpful? Well, the idea was explored around the turn of the last century by much more skilled therapists than Hubbard. And it was rejected, as tending to create a dependency on the therapist. Let's say we do discover something important to the PC using the meter. Asked about it, they will nearly always show interest. We keep pushing this button, sometimes in a frankly hypnotic way (repetitive commands) sometimes in an almost ritualistic way (Standard Dianetics). Eventually the meter shows a floating needle and the PC experiences relief and a cognition. Does that really mean the mental mass of the issue has been erased somehow? No, the meter does not and cannot measure masses, mental or otherwise. It only measures the state of the cells of the palms. What has really happened is a hypnotic process that ends in euphoria and disassociation. The PC is desensitized to the original issue. Whatever it was that was causing stress is now pushed down out of sight. Imagine, Mom dies and the PC is crying. You run out the loss, maybe an earlier beginning, maybe an earlier-similar. At some point the PC is smiling and happy. But Mom is still deceased. You still have to go to the funeral. Probably there will even be more tears. If not, it will look odd to the other family members. Has this session helped the PC? Absolutely not. They still need to go through the stages of grief. They still need to come to terms with it in the real world. Being desensitized to it does not help at all. All just my opinion based on the research I've done on the e-meter and personal experience. I don't expect to convince the true believers. They have too much invested in it to see what I'm saying. But others may find it helpful.
@ if I'm going to listen to a critic, it's good to know at least I've an educated one! Consider this an acknowledgment and a placeholder for a longer and better reply. I'm glad to hear from you.
I agree. Get rid of the cans - it seems the auditor has no skill but to read a needle and not truly interact with a person. It's the digging and insisting there is something 'there' that must drive people mad at times. I feel like the 'floating needle' is simply random behavior by the e-meter.
@@Catherine_AMit's much more sophisticated than what is explained here. There are many more skills involved in auditing than what is shown here. If all there was to it was what is being discussed here, than there would be troubles. But there is much much more than what is explained here. A real floating needle is a real phenomenon and not at all a random thing from the meter.
@@Catherine_AM There was not a lot of time and what was offered is a very incomplete explanation of auditing. Ideally Trey would be in a live chat and do a live demo with a live Q and A afterwords. Standard auditing is a very careful, caring, and even beautiful activity. Should you ever receive auditing from a professional, you'll find it to be a lot of fun and very therapeutic.
@@danlocke4904 It's hard to reconcile when you hear 'both sides' - do you discount the non-therapeutic outcomes for some? I do appreciate your engagement with this convo.
@@Catherine_AM Hello! Please clarify - can you be more specific about what you mean by "non-therapeutic outcomes"? Do you simply mean "unsatisfactory outcomes", e.g. not getting better; feeling worse, desired outcomes not realized, etc.? I am happy to do my best to respond to whatever you ask.
Hi guys. This was a good show. Trey is a smart guy, started the right way, studied all the other religions and philosophies, read all Hubbard's stuff and gave it a shot, here we are 50+ years later. I like his premise - we are either all spiritual or all material. We are either a part of god or an accidental chemical reaction. I think getting back to god realization is the goal. The problems with scn are not technical, they are administrative. The tech side is pretty easy, you study it, try it, it works or not. The admin exists to delivery the tech, but the admin is subject to the personality of the person running the organization. The admin is the organization itself, its policies and its leadership. For example, if the current major problem of disconnection was replaced by love and forgiveness, many of the bad feelings about scn would evaporate. the question is does current leadership have the guts to do that? I think one of these days we will have an open forum on "is scientology fixable". There are a lot of really smart people here, real problem solvers.
Viewers have asked for a Video explaining how Scientology Auditing (Counseling) works. So we interviewed Trey Lotz who is no longer part of Scientology, but still delivers private counseling using Scientology procedures and he has been doing this for over 50 years. We hope you find this discussion informative. Thanks for watching.
Thank you so much for bringing Trey on. A veritable gem. I have been an auditor since 1978, it is still refreshing to get another viewpoint. I had some realizations , so hurrah!
21:43 Very few statements are more true than this one. 30:06 This is an excellent point that I never forgot. Janis earlier said that Hubbard was great when doing research but was horrible to be around when he was on management lines. That fits precisely. At 41:52 Learned this years ago and figured that if you can precisely form a question, you can find the answer.
yes, all good points.
Hi to you all. Great episode. this is the first I've seen of these and I'm now subscribed. Well done!
Thank you so much for watching and subscribing! I hope you enjoy the rest of the content.
This is one of my favorite videos! Interesting stories and stuff!
Thanks for watching!
❤ Just started! I love Trey!! Known him since late 70s AOLA CYC unit (Complete Your Case)
Thank you 🙏
Fantastic interview! Thank you for having Trey explain how Dianetics and Scientology work. Are you going to have a live Q & A?
Yes !! I'd love to have a Live Q and A with Trey. Thanks so much !!
Yes we will be having a live Q & A. Stay tuned for the future announcement.
Thank you Janis and Mark. You are the only chanel that I know nowadays that gives a voice to those who have something positive to say about Scientology’s tech. Its important because thats part of Scientology too. Thank you for this.
To be fair it would be great to have interviews from people from the public who actually did Scientology services as well.
Nowadays we learn a lot from former Sea org members and the abuses they went through. They are very important testimonies. Occasionnally we also hear of staff members but testimonies from the public itself is something that is missing imho.
So thanks for discussing auditing today by inviting Trey People deserve to know about that aspect too 👌🙏🧡
Thank you so much Janis and Mark, it was fascinating to hear from Trey and I look forward to your next interview. ❤❤
Thank you for watching!
Hey Replay Crew, hit 💥 that LIKE button 👍‼️‼️‼️ and subscribe ‼️‼️‼️
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Trey explanation and description of Dynamics in the mind is very clear. He makes it easy to understand.👍🏼👌🏼
36:03 At this time stamp there is a sound in the middle of Trey speaking. Not a word, a sound, like a dripping faucet “sswipt”. What is that? Again at 37:00, 46:00, 47:00.
@@MySelf-i2h it's an alert or notification or message being sent through another app. It sounds like Skype to me.
I think it was Treys computer notifying him of email or something
@ oh yeah, was something electronic - not a squirrel 🐿️ trying to get out of a trap 🪤😃
@ makes sense. I joked with Janis hoping it was not a squirrel 🐿️ trying to get out of a trap 🪤😃
I grew up outside of Utica , NY. Hamilton is a great college. I wish I knew the name of Trey’s band. I’m younger but I might have heard of them. Great show. As usual.
@@gretch1966
Here's one of their songs!
The Roosters, I Wanna Do It
There are some pics of the band. Trey, is lead guitarist.
ua-cam.com/video/kC6gUNmvIwg/v-deo.htmlsi=sxoRGgMp-hT96r2-
All three of you seem like loving kind caring people that can understand that some people believe to benefit from auditing. I wish the environment online was less volatile to have a real discussion from your points of view on the processes discussed effects on children.
Great to see Trey!
Scientology auditing isn't something I am interested in trying, but Trey Lotz seems like a cool guy. It is amazing how the church with all of its abuses and sec checking and crush regging and slick, cringe inducing marketing can make it seem so singularly unappealing. Then this guy can talk about it for an hour, and it's like "yeah, good for him, some of that makes sense, it doesn't sound any more ridiculous than psychotherapy." It is almost like official scientology is trying to drive people away from scientology on purpose.
Good one... will U be doing more with Homer and Disconnection? that interview seems it could go on longer. Thanks for your effort to get better Understanding @ th subject...
Yes we just recorded a 2nd interview with Homer. It will be released this week. Thanks for watching!
7:55 Was that Freddy Crivello AKA Freddy Foos? The best damned foosball player ever? What I learned from him allowed me, with no practice in between, to beat good young players 35 years later.
Intresting to see people who buy into this nonsense explain it fr. Their point of view. It's important to get this point of view to understand the draw of rhe cult and why people don't easily drop it. Thanks for this
Kinda feels like they’re still believers but just not “practicing” with the cult. Craziness.
Thanks for watching and for your comments.
@@jamiemiesler322Find someone in your environment who was long and successfully involved and be courteous and ask sincere questions and give them the benefit of the doubt. Set any preconceived ideas aside for the time of the interview and do your best to understand. Entertain the idea that you might not know the whole story.
@jamiemiesler322 same thing happens with things like the book the secret and all religions they can all be wrong but at most one is possibly right. People derive benefit sure and attribute it to things other than themselves. Life coaches are a excellent example make big bux offering empty platitudes that resonate broadly. It's human nature to be susceptible to this sort of thing. Hubbard was a perfect fit for his time. It's telling the guest still reffered to him as a engineer with some reverence
@@gregnietsky how much actual study of the subject did you have before coming to the conclusion that it was nonsense? I mean, actually the subject itself rather than secondhand information?
I met Trey in ‘72 when he brought a client in to the LA Org to attest to completion of a Grade Chart level. I thought this was the way to go - help people independently WITHOUT reliance on the STUPID machinations of Hubbard’s organizational folly. Would like to know the long term results of his clients that did NOT get training inside orgs and did NOT do the confidential levels. Also, TRs are not necessary to for a client. Did Trey have his clients do TRs? What is Trey’s opinion of Objective Processing? Specifically CCHs and Opening Procedure by Duplication? Does he know anyone who is stably exterior? Does he know anyone who is at cause, knowingly and at will over thought, life, form, matter, energy, space and time, subjective and objective?
Have you never heard of compartmentalizing? Jeez, to each his own but i hope this isn't contagious.
I love using the word "compartmentalization" when talking about auditing and Hubbards techniques. Spot on! The human mind is an abstract and trying to compartmentalize it can help a bit and hurt a lot.
So, out-tech was originally meant to point out what went wrong with the auditing and not what was wrong with the person being audited? Did I get that right? The cans seems an intentional barrier to real human interaction. It's almost sad.
the early auditing was no meter. As auditing expanded , Hubbard and his crew at the time theorized that all this emotional charge might show up on a sensitive electrical resistance meter. Like your body has a natural balance of electrical energy, and maybe mental mass (ie, when a person feels like crap etc) might interfere with this natural flow. Well it worked out, Hubbard had lots of people to help work out the details, and it was fortuitous for scn that a physical meter went along to help validate the work of the auditor. Scn was supposed to be a modern scientific approach to helping uplift the mind of man, and the meter turned out to be an effective tool.
The problems of scientology are not technical, it does a fine job at what it does; the problems are administrative. The technical side works well enough, you just follow the tech, but the admin exists to deliver the tech, and the admin is subject to individual interpretation. The admin is the fact of the organization, way the organizations are run, and its leadership.
That being said, you can still do what they call "book one auditing", (dianetics) with no meter. It is faster and more effective to use a meter.
I got a lot of auditing, and when working with Hubbard at LaQuinta in the 70s, with Hubbard doing the auditing supervision, I got to the point where I really did not need auditing, it was too easy for me, unlike Janis when said she looked forward to daily sessions. Hubbard actually took me off auditing "until he gets keyed in again" (until i felt the need for relief).
The more difficult thing for me was leaving the organization, I liked the purpose, uplifting the spirit of man , but when I left in 1982 it seemed the right thing to do at the time.
Auditing can get rid of a lot of the mental blocks getting in the way of the goal of spiritual freedom, kind of undercuts "karma" which is kind of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
Since I am on a roll here, I will tell you what scn is missing - god, love and forgiveness. It kind of bumps in to god in a lot of ways, but never really lays it out, in scn you have to find on your own way to god, which is what my quest has been. If disconnection (an administrative action) could be replaced with those (or at least love and forgiveness), a lot of the problems with scn would resolve.
I could go on and on; I would like to have an open forum on if scn is fixable and how, we might do that one day. There are a lot of really smart people involved here.
Trey mentioned this early on, he is very astute, we either come from (are a part of) god, or all this is just physical.
@@Stu-UTUBE1 This was an awesome explanation. Thank you so much. It gets a little muddled for me as it evolved over the years.
@@Catherine_AM it was fun thanks. Or, mahalo, as they say here on Maui.
As a children my brother and myself were put on the cans after completing a course. I was told " your needle is floating" even though i sometimes had little understanding on what i had been doing. In my opinion the training routines were abusive.
The explanation given applies to Scientology up to about 1967. I suspect that Trey also does the upper levels, maybe not. Perhaps it will be covered in the next interview.
The desensitization techniques described were eventually abandoned by Hubbard in his hopeless quest for higher states of being. Certainly they are addictive as pointed out by Janis, and there is no real evidence that they have lasting benefit.
But with all that said, kudos to Trey for explaining it simply and thoroughly. These lower-level wins are indeed the glue that sticks people to Scientology even when all else is lost.
They are not addictive at all. It's a poor choice of words on Janis' part and I think she would agree in reviewing this conversation. There isn't any auditing that results in greater dependency on another or on auditing itself. All auditing results in an increase of self determinism or it isn't auditing. These techniques were never abandoned; they are amongst the fundamentals of good auditing and always will be. I contest your view that there isn't any real evidence that these have any lasting benefit. Unless you want to completely disregard the wins of thousands of people past and current who have dramatically improved their lives and the lives of others with this counseling.
Trey indeed did well with his explanation. Bruce, these processes are instead more the solvent that releases the glue that sticks people to the losses and regrets in their lives.
They are not addictive at all. It's a poor choice of words on Janis' part and I think she would agree in reviewing this conversation.
There isn't any auditing that results in greater dependency on another or on auditing itself. All auditing results in an increase of self determinism or it isn't auditing.
These techniques were never abandoned; they are amongst the fundamentals of good auditing and always will be.
I contest your view that there isn't any real evidence that these have any lasting benefit. Unless you want to completely disregard the wins of thousands of people past and current who have dramatically improved their lives and the lives of others with this counseling.
“These lower-level wins are indeed the glue that sticks people to Scientology even when all else is lost.”? I feel that these processes are more the solvent that releases the glue that sticks people to the losses and regrets in their lives.
Thanks Bruce for watching and for the insight.
@@danlocke4904 Well, Dan, we don't agree and probably never will. But I will try to unpack my argument a little more so you can see how I arrive at it.
Scientology is indeed like an onion. Whether it is simply an ineffable divinity at the center, final level or just a lingering stench depends on how you unpeel it.
Hubbard certainly seems to have thought that there really was a state of Clear, and the first book is supposed to be a manual on how to achieve it. No one has ever achieved the state of Book One clear, no colds, eidetic memory and so on.
However, maybe we can take this as a stage in a process and not the endpoint. In fact, Hubbard soon lost control of the original organizations that grew up around Book One and embraced the Bridey Murphey craze. i have an old photo of my stepfather holding a newspaper with a Bridey Murphy article.
So maybe this explains the issues with Book One. Even bizarrely including prenatal memory, biologically impossible, the techniques do have a finite result. At some point all the engrams have been reduced and voila - no reactive mind.
Bridey Murphy blows that idea to shreds. If we have lived many lives, we now have many thousands or even millions of engrams to reduce per life. And possibly millions or trillions of lives! This led Hubbard to a manifold ever-changing therapy regime, trying everything from guided imagery (creative processing) to objectives to repetitive questions to the Rock. All unworking. Still no Real Clears.
This gets us up to the 60s. Things got too hot for Hubbard and he had to flee to the high seas. At some point he decided Clear was good but not great and went on to the OT levels. I personally know nothing about that other than what I have read, even after 40 years in Scientology I was not even Clear when I escaped the Sea Org. But from what I have heard it seems that Hubbard went on pursuing the Aleister Crowley quest for superpowers all the way to his death. No success.
All that said, could he have developed a working psychotherapy that actually helps people, even if his ultimate aim was beyond his reach?
You say yes and I say no.
I have audited hundreds of hours of lower-level processes and have received hundreds of hours. I think I was on folder 50 or so when I left. I have had lots of mind-blowing, seemingly life-changing wins. My PCs also have sometimes had floating TAs and went on for half an hour telling me all about it. I made three Dianetic Clears according to the C/S. It all seemed great at the time, looking back not so much.
Part of this is simply confirmation bias, an issue in all religions and forms of therapy. If you are sure that accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour will change your life, and that gives you the confidence to ask for a raise, and you get it, praise the Lord! The same thing might happen after a blow-out session or a really good visit to a psychic. The placebo effect is real and does work.
That doesn't mean that Scientology works or that it doesn't work. The issue is just that there are no peer-reviewed double-blind studies that show that it works. Which is my basic point.
Beyond that, something about the basic structure of Scientology therapy seems inherently off. It is not true at all that the e-meter can show spiritual or mental changes. It can only show their effects in the body. See my essay in Mike Rinder's blog "What about the E-Meter?". But what if it does show stress etc. and this can guide a therapist? Wouldn't that be helpful? Well, the idea was explored around the turn of the last century by much more skilled therapists than Hubbard. And it was rejected, as tending to create a dependency on the therapist.
Let's say we do discover something important to the PC using the meter. Asked about it, they will nearly always show interest. We keep pushing this button, sometimes in a frankly hypnotic way (repetitive commands) sometimes in an almost ritualistic way (Standard Dianetics). Eventually the meter shows a floating needle and the PC experiences relief and a cognition. Does that really mean the mental mass of the issue has been erased somehow? No, the meter does not and cannot measure masses, mental or otherwise. It only measures the state of the cells of the palms.
What has really happened is a hypnotic process that ends in euphoria and disassociation. The PC is desensitized to the original issue. Whatever it was that was causing stress is now pushed down out of sight.
Imagine, Mom dies and the PC is crying. You run out the loss, maybe an earlier beginning, maybe an earlier-similar. At some point the PC is smiling and happy. But Mom is still deceased. You still have to go to the funeral. Probably there will even be more tears. If not, it will look odd to the other family members.
Has this session helped the PC? Absolutely not. They still need to go through the stages of grief. They still need to come to terms with it in the real world. Being desensitized to it does not help at all.
All just my opinion based on the research I've done on the e-meter and personal experience. I don't expect to convince the true believers. They have too much invested in it to see what I'm saying. But others may find it helpful.
@ if I'm going to listen to a critic, it's good to know at least I've an educated one! Consider this an acknowledgment and a placeholder for a longer and better reply. I'm glad to hear from you.
In my opinion auditing is a practice that should be banned. It can be harmful for people who have experienced real trauma.
I agree. Get rid of the cans - it seems the auditor has no skill but to read a needle and not truly interact with a person. It's the digging and insisting there is something 'there' that must drive people mad at times. I feel like the 'floating needle' is simply random behavior by the e-meter.
@@Catherine_AMit's much more sophisticated than what is explained here. There are many more skills involved in auditing than what is shown here. If all there was to it was what is being discussed here, than there would be troubles. But there is much much more than what is explained here. A real floating needle is a real phenomenon and not at all a random thing from the meter.
@@Catherine_AM There was not a lot of time and what was offered is a very incomplete explanation of auditing. Ideally Trey would be in a live chat and do a live demo with a live Q and A afterwords. Standard auditing is a very careful, caring, and even beautiful activity. Should you ever receive auditing from a professional, you'll find it to be a lot of fun and very therapeutic.
@@danlocke4904 It's hard to reconcile when you hear 'both sides' - do you discount the non-therapeutic outcomes for some? I do appreciate your engagement with this convo.
@@Catherine_AM Hello! Please clarify - can you be more specific about what you mean by "non-therapeutic outcomes"? Do you simply mean "unsatisfactory outcomes", e.g. not getting better; feeling worse, desired outcomes not realized, etc.? I am happy to do my best to respond to whatever you ask.
Hi guys. This was a good show. Trey is a smart guy, started the right way, studied all the other religions and philosophies, read all Hubbard's stuff and gave it a shot, here we are 50+ years later. I like his premise - we are either all spiritual or all material. We are either a part of god or an accidental chemical reaction. I think getting back to god realization is the goal.
The problems with scn are not technical, they are administrative. The tech side is pretty easy, you study it, try it, it works or not. The admin exists to delivery the tech, but the admin is subject to the personality of the person running the organization. The admin is the organization itself, its policies and its leadership. For example, if the current major problem of disconnection was replaced by love and forgiveness, many of the bad feelings about scn would evaporate. the question is does current leadership have the guts to do that?
I think one of these days we will have an open forum on "is scientology fixable". There are a lot of really smart people here, real problem solvers.