Be advised this video was edited on December 28th and many improvements have been added to our radar simulator. Your feedback is always welcome by the way. *Kudos to these pilots. We don't usually appreciate how helpful flaps are :D*
Flaps serve several purposes, especially the Fowler flaps used on most airliners. Small % is mainly adding wing area, thus allowing flight at a lower airspeed with small addition of drag. Moderate application increases area and lift more, plus alters the effective "twist" to the wing, making the aircraft more stable near stall. The wing stalling first near the root instead of near the narrow wingtips helps to prevent a spin. High deflection adds tremendous drag, aiding in stopping the aircraft when landing.
That reduced stall speed is a real benefit when landing! Lower approach speed = more time to make final adjustments = much more comfortable approach for all concerned!
The indicated airspeed was still around 195kts, but because the airport had a 190 degrees 19kts wind the actual radar speed or GS was the speed you saw on screen.
This pilot was just so calm and blasé about the whole issue. I gotta give mad props to his confidence in his training and in his aircraft's capability to do a no-flaps high speed landing like that. Though it probably also helps that Schiphol Airport has stupid long runways that can accommodate a no flaps landing like that.
@2:23 the subtitles say: 'Please, call with the speed on frequency 126.680', which is incorrect. The contoller says: 'Please call me on the discrete frequency 126.680'. This frequency is also know as the DEF freq or discrete emergency frequency. Its a national wide freq that can be used by Amsterdam radar, Dutchmil radar and the airports arrivals and towers.
Love the subtitles, maps, animations, correct times, time skip of not important moments, further explanation into unknown concepts like the frequency, keep doing so! Saludos desde España.
I fly regularly with KLM from BHX to AMS and I must say, AMS has the longest runway I have ever experienced, so I’d feel safe with a high speed landing. Sometimes it takes longer for the pilot to drive from the runway to the gate than the flight itself.
Had the same issue into Minneapolis on a Delta 757. Very windy that day so it helped with the stopping distance. Smoothest landing I've ever experienced on a commercial flight.
It could be the config of my FSX, but my plane wouldn't be damaged if I did that. The 787 just says load relief and extends when appropriate. The 737 would be okay too
1:37 i think a better translation would be 'Yeah that's gonna be a little bit difficult, we've got a problem, the flaps won't extend, ehm, we're going to do a heading on 3000, is that possible?'
Fortunately many airlines practice this maneuver in the simulator, either as a No Flap landing or Partial flap landing. It is always difficult on the brakes because the deck angle of the cockpit in a no flap landing is relatively steep and the nose gear takes a while to contact the runway surface. by that time, the crew is faced with stopping the aircraft in the remaining runway distance.
Zzyzx Wolfe There are literally dozens of possibilities... It might have been something like a sensor falsely OR legitimately detecting an asymmetrical flap (flap disagree) condition - something FAR more dangerous than no flaps (the aircraft would want to roll HARD, potentially exceeding control authority, and likely crashing). Maybe it was a genuine fault in one of the flap extension jackscrews or motors leading to the above scenario? Possibly a faulty hydraulic actuator? SO many things it MIGHT be.
Mike Cowen Thanks for that explanation, Mike. I can see how the asymmetrical flaps could be (literally) disastrous! And how about their brakes? I'm relatively unknowledgeable, so would that speed landing be particularly hard on their brakes (and tires), or would they just need a garden-variety cool down period and a once-over?
Shelli Meyers No!, Hot Brakes on an aircraft can kill you. If the tires do not blow out, the heat produced by the brakes often makes them explode. Flying rubber and metal rims are deadly. Crash crews approach the aircraft carefully, and set large portable fans to cool the brakes down, then they step back.
The sudden Dutch by the pilot threw me off a bit, was expecting only English love the typical (I think) Amsterdam dialect (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm from Limburg myself so I don't always recognize the wright dialects from the provinces up north).
Dan E Nationality, does not make one a good pilot or controller. It is the training and how one applies all they have learned correctly, while performing their duties.
Speaking Dutch is not "by the book". It's amazing, if a JFK ATC dares to use a little bit of New York accent the comment section is full of outraged eurocucks whining about aeronautical phraseology.
Shelli Meyers Yes, you are so right. That Dutch, KLM, pilot, drove a a 747 into another 747, in Tenerife, after taking off without ATC clearance, and he was their Chief Pilot and photo boy for KLM. He was very cool, huh?
Just got here from that other video about another KLM flight with flaps problems landing at Schiphol, a year earlier. And that had the same call sign, KLM1576. Crazy or just coincidence?
Well, they were a Dutch crew operating in Dutch airspace! Often easier (and safer) to use the local lingo, since there is no such thing as an exact inter-language translation.
To be totally honest with you, if you can speak English quite well, which 99% of Dutch people do, and if you're flying within airspace where international flights occupy the majority of the airspace, it is wise to just use English, especially in an emergency. IFR is probably fine, or even the restrictive airspaces like A, B & C, however when flying VFR, it's stupid not to use English, as other aircraft in the vicinity might be foreign and won't have a clue as to what your intentions & location are. I know of at least 7 students at my flight school who had this problem when flying in Sicily/Italy, and it's really an idiotic reason for an accident to happen if the pilots involved all knew how to converse in English. Trust me, national pride is the last thing you'll be worrying about when you're in a converging path with another aircraft with seconds to spare.
+Phil S Wrong. A standard language is necessary so everyone listening can understand regardless of nationality. That's specifically why the rules require it.
Mr White - as a pilot I'm fully aware of the law regarding use of English in all Commercial operations. However if it is not your first language, AND you are operating on a closed channel, AND the recipient is also a native speaker of your native language, then although not "in accordance with Aviation Law", it just might make for more effective (and less stressful) communication. Just because "It's the Law" does not mean it is ALWAYS the best solution - and that is as a native English speaker.
I guess he got a little nervous and sorta "switched automatically" to dutch. I'm brazilian, I do speak english, but on emergencies it's kinda intuitive to use your mother language if someone's able to understand you. Easier to think, kind of
In real life, you can't land until the wings stall. If you touchdown while the wings are still flying, you'll bounce.....and keep bouncing higher and higher until the wings do indeed stall or until you break the airplane.
The worst thing about this flight will be landing on that damned runway, things is miles away from the airport takes forever to taxi ;( I always dread it when I land or see we move to take off from there.
Isn't it weird to have both dutch and english on the same radio? Or is english used for all normal procedures and phrases while dutch is used for the rest?
when I hear calsign for example I register as "numbers" only. They talk fast, all I get is "'ah, those were numbers" but I can't actually hear the specify numbers. Does it some with routine or I am not available to work in the air transportation industry?
1) training helps 2) experience with the style of communication helps 3) these recordings are made from relatively small setups. Pilots and ATC use installations worth millions and probably hear a much clearer sound than we do.
When referring to Boeing planes, most of us pilots will say the first 2 numbers; it's not a seven thirty seven, it's a seven three. If we want to get specific, we'll say 'seven three.......nine'.
I'm not a fan of it, even though I am Dutch myself. But to be honest most of that was on a discrete channel, noone else on there but that one aircraft and the ATC (and the scanners/spotters of course haha), so no harm done there I would think.
![[REAL ATC] American B757 has COMPLETE RADIO FAILURE out of Kennedy!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Wcq6KipBOro/mqdefault.jpg)
![[REAL ATC] American B757 has COMPLETE RADIO FAILURE out of Kennedy!](/img/tr.png)
![[REAL ATC] Delta is forced to return after a WINDOW BREAKS APART!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/msf4iSkPq2Q/mqdefault.jpg)
Be advised this video was edited on December 28th and many improvements have been added to our radar simulator. Your feedback is always welcome by the way.
*Kudos to these pilots. We don't usually appreciate how helpful flaps are :D*
Flaps serve several purposes, especially the Fowler flaps used on most airliners.
Small % is mainly adding wing area, thus allowing flight at a lower airspeed with small addition of drag.
Moderate application increases area and lift more, plus alters the effective "twist" to the wing, making the aircraft more stable near stall.
The wing stalling first near the root instead of near the narrow wingtips helps to prevent a spin.
High deflection adds tremendous drag, aiding in stopping the aircraft when landing.
That reduced stall speed is a real benefit when landing! Lower approach speed = more time to make final adjustments = much more comfortable approach for all concerned!
VASAviation - can we get witch aircraft it is. Flight no*
F Huber flaps there job is to Increase aircraft performance and the plane a bit more violent to control while landing
it always amazes me how calm and collected the pilots and ATC guys sound during an emergency .
Just having gaming experience, I'd suggest it's the idea "it's a game."
But if I lose, I can hit 'restart'
195 knots are 224 mph or 361 km/h for those who aren't super well in converting units.
Or just really, really, REALLY fast if you're not good with numbers or speeds in general.
John Doe but you're talking about Indicated Airspeed, in fact, planes moving much faster (TAS, GS) on higher levels.
But on the graphics it showed that the plane landed at 165 knots.
The indicated airspeed was still around 195kts, but because the airport had a 190 degrees 19kts wind the actual radar speed or GS was the speed you saw on screen.
I am just lazy to use my calculator because someone will provide this information to everyone. So thx for that
This pilot was just so calm and blasé about the whole issue. I gotta give mad props to his confidence in his training and in his aircraft's capability to do a no-flaps high speed landing like that. Though it probably also helps that Schiphol Airport has stupid long runways that can accommodate a no flaps landing like that.
Calyo Delphi Why are the runways stupid?
The runways themselves aren't stupid. :P It's an idiomatic slang usage of the word that's synonymous with "ridiculous"/"ridiculously".
LOL! Fun with English idioms!
Calyo Delphi Do you know why the runways are so long, or why some airports have such long runways?
Ruben Villanueva I’m sure there are multiple reasons but I would think emergency wartime use of the runways might be a reason.
@2:23 the subtitles say: 'Please, call with the speed on frequency 126.680', which is incorrect. The contoller says: 'Please call me on the discrete frequency 126.680'. This frequency is also know as the DEF freq or discrete emergency frequency. Its a national wide freq that can be used by Amsterdam radar, Dutchmil radar and the airports arrivals and towers.
Affirmative, makes more sense. Thank you.
Love the subtitles, maps, animations, correct times, time skip of not important moments, further explanation into unknown concepts like the frequency, keep doing so! Saludos desde España.
Thanks for your support! :)
I fly regularly with KLM from BHX to AMS and I must say, AMS has the longest runway I have ever experienced, so I’d feel safe with a high speed landing. Sometimes it takes longer for the pilot to drive from the runway to the gate than the flight itself.
Good work in setting up these videos, as a matter of fact I sometimes use them as a lesson learned tool for atc recurrent training
1:35 my text! Was wondering if it was gonna get used. Very nice video!
Had the same issue into Minneapolis on a Delta 757. Very windy that day so it helped with the stopping distance. Smoothest landing I've ever experienced on a commercial flight.
I guess he accidentally hit F8 while at full speed...
Hahaha that was good!
Mikosch2 what does F8 do and in what game LOL
Fully extends the flaps in FSX, causing the to tear off if you're too fast. ;)
LOL yup must've forgot to retract them after departure and hit F8 instead LOL
It could be the config of my FSX, but my plane wouldn't be damaged if I did that. The 787 just says load relief and extends when appropriate. The 737 would be okay too
Loved loved LOVED this display and presentation! Absolutely awesome! Thanks for all you do!
Thanks for watching! :)
Would be interesting to see an in flight vid from that! Good info on the vid.
Dez Rosswess i
Often spotters near 18R, so someone may have that footage. From the outside that is anyway.
More schiphol please!👍
And more coming soon :)
1:37 i think a better translation would be 'Yeah that's gonna be a little bit difficult, we've got a problem, the flaps won't extend, ehm, we're going to do a heading on 3000, is that possible?'
Content always improving. I’m impressed! Thank you.
Thank you! :)
Fortunately many airlines practice this maneuver in the simulator, either as a No Flap landing or Partial flap landing. It is always difficult on the brakes because the deck angle of the cockpit in a no flap landing is relatively steep and the nose gear takes a while to contact the runway surface. by that time, the crew is faced with stopping the aircraft in the remaining runway distance.
Ugh when training for my VFR I remember I could barely keep up with the controllers on the radio. I'm having flashbacks listening to this!
matt b Are you keeping up now?
This was nothing. You should try going into and departing Chicago Ohare. They sound like an auctioneer.
Again an amazing and interesting video! Good job!! Keep it up ;)
GREAT animation, keep up the good work ! !! !!!
Glad everyone's alright. From what I've read, the aircraft returned to service after 12 hours on the ground. I wonder what the issue was.
Zzyzx Wolfe There are literally dozens of possibilities... It might have been something like a sensor falsely OR legitimately detecting an asymmetrical flap (flap disagree) condition - something FAR more dangerous than no flaps (the aircraft would want to roll HARD, potentially exceeding control authority, and likely crashing). Maybe it was a genuine fault in one of the flap extension jackscrews or motors leading to the above scenario? Possibly a faulty hydraulic actuator? SO many things it MIGHT be.
Mike Cowen Thanks for that explanation, Mike. I can see how the asymmetrical flaps could be (literally) disastrous! And how about their brakes? I'm relatively unknowledgeable, so would that speed landing be particularly hard on their brakes (and tires), or would they just need a garden-variety cool down period and a once-over?
Shelli Meyers No!, Hot Brakes on an aircraft can kill you. If the tires do not blow out, the heat produced by the brakes often makes them explode. Flying rubber and metal rims are deadly. Crash crews approach the aircraft carefully, and set large portable fans to cool the brakes down, then they step back.
As usual, a job well done!!
The sudden Dutch by the pilot threw me off a bit, was expecting only English love the typical (I think) Amsterdam dialect (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm from Limburg myself so I don't always recognize the wright dialects from the provinces up north).
What about "how does Schipol approach work"?
Coming soon :)
Btw I think your videos r amazing
Thanks for watching!
I wonder how many times in a day a controller at Schiphol has to say KLM?
Peter Spencer about the same amount an Atlanta controller says Delta😉
About as many times a Hong Kong controller has to say "Cathay" or "Dragon"
About as much as a Helsinki controller says Finnair.
Very good video thanks. Do you have seen the Croatia airlines with gear problem at Brussels on Thursday, that was Ou4456 flight ?
Great Dutch pilots and controllers. Efficient, calm, by the book. Couldn't have been any better of an outcome.
Dan E Nationality, does not make one a good pilot or controller. It is the training and how one applies all they have learned correctly, while performing their duties.
If they just spoke the language they are required to...
Speaking Dutch is not "by the book". It's amazing, if a JFK ATC dares to use a little bit of New York accent the comment section is full of outraged eurocucks whining about aeronautical phraseology.
I find the Dutch to be pretty cool-headed in all situations, actually!
Shelli Meyers Yes, you are so right. That Dutch, KLM, pilot, drove a a 747 into another 747, in Tenerife, after taking off without ATC clearance, and he was their Chief Pilot and photo boy for KLM. He was very cool, huh?
Just got here from that other video about another KLM flight with flaps problems landing at Schiphol, a year earlier.
And that had the same call sign, KLM1576.
Crazy or just coincidence?
We coming in HOT
Geebus.. that's F-104 / MIG21 approach speed territory.
Looking forward for outraged comments criticising the use of non-English language
Well, they were a Dutch crew operating in Dutch airspace! Often easier (and safer) to use the local lingo, since there is no such thing as an exact inter-language translation.
To be totally honest with you, if you can speak English quite well, which 99% of Dutch people do, and if you're flying within airspace where international flights occupy the majority of the airspace, it is wise to just use English, especially in an emergency.
IFR is probably fine, or even the restrictive airspaces like A, B & C, however when flying VFR, it's stupid not to use English, as other aircraft in the vicinity might be foreign and won't have a clue as to what your intentions & location are. I know of at least 7 students at my flight school who had this problem when flying in Sicily/Italy, and it's really an idiotic reason for an accident to happen if the pilots involved all knew how to converse in English.
Trust me, national pride is the last thing you'll be worrying about when you're in a converging path with another aircraft with seconds to spare.
+Phil S Wrong. A standard language is necessary so everyone listening can understand regardless of nationality. That's specifically why the rules require it.
Mr White - as a pilot I'm fully aware of the law regarding use of English in all Commercial operations. However if it is not your first language, AND you are operating on a closed channel, AND the recipient is also a native speaker of your native language, then although not "in accordance with Aviation Law", it just might make for more effective (and less stressful) communication. Just because "It's the Law" does not mean it is ALWAYS the best solution - and that is as a native English speaker.
I guess he got a little nervous and sorta "switched automatically" to dutch.
I'm brazilian, I do speak english, but on emergencies it's kinda intuitive to use your mother language if someone's able to understand you. Easier to think, kind of
Yess KLM! I am Dutch :-D
Aviation Spirit Is Amsterdam nice?
Aperture Science personnally, its just a big city.
Aperture Science | I don’t live in Amsterdam. I am almost never in Amsterdam. :-)
Aperture Science Yeah, But other places in the netherlands are also Nice.
The drawing of the runways looks like a Japanese 'word'. Don't know at all haha!
195 kts, bet I can land it at 300 kts in a flight simulator
on an aircraft carrier
Should be possible
195kts was the approach speed, not the landing speed :)
In torrential sleet! And blindfolded!
In real life, you can't land until the wings stall. If you touchdown while the wings are still flying, you'll bounce.....and keep bouncing higher and higher until the wings do indeed stall or until you break the airplane.
They would have practiced this in the simulator heaps of times.
For the life of me, I could not find flight 1576 and I could not understand half of what was said. Good that I am not working in that buisiness.
The worst thing about this flight will be landing on that damned runway, things is miles away from the airport takes forever to taxi ;( I always dread it when I land or see we move to take off from there.
Scary.
Turboflaps.
Which is the normal speed for landing in this case?
Between 135 and 145 IAS.
Boeing again? Oh common, how many times do I have to copy paste this!
What is "996" there at 0:33?
Altimeter setting.
29.96?
996 hectopascals.
Stuck flaps can't melt steel beams.
No, but they can melt brakes...
Damn
Isn't it weird to have both dutch and english on the same radio? Or is english used for all normal procedures and phrases while dutch is used for the rest?
No its easier to speak your own language in a emergency bcs sometimes you can forget it
when I hear calsign for example I register as "numbers" only. They talk fast, all I get is "'ah, those were numbers" but I can't actually hear the specify numbers. Does it some with routine or I am not available to work in the air transportation industry?
1) training helps
2) experience with the style of communication helps
3) these recordings are made from relatively small setups. Pilots and ATC use installations worth millions and probably hear a much clearer sound than we do.
Are they allowed to speak Dutch? I just mean because others in the area might not understand them or was the chat not public?
chaushb Discrete channel used, so nobody else listening. Can't see why it would be a problem
James Thom Okay, thanks
why do they speak dutch, i thought all comminication has to be english at all times
Robert Hunter nope, they are allowed to speak some dutch in between.
The spanish do the same
Boeing 739 never heard of that one
Boeing B737-900 series.
When referring to Boeing planes, most of us pilots will say the first 2 numbers; it's not a seven thirty seven, it's a seven three. If we want to get specific, we'll say 'seven three.......nine'.
RR KNL also A388
dank
I was once on a Cessna 337 skymaster flying out of Oshkosh back to KJWN when the back engine failed. That was in 2016 when I was 9 years old.
Another_ Aviator & Pranker That is the good thing about those "suck and blow" aircraft!
They do look very silly though.
Mr. White I can agree
Mr. White they did great work as FACs in Viet Nam!
Ok why can you guys understand those words ? The radio krkrkrr is lik u canntnttntn krkkrr unstd antng gngngg
STARTS TALKING DUTCH!!? SERIOUSLY?
I'm not a fan of it, even though I am Dutch myself. But to be honest most of that was on a discrete channel, noone else on there but that one aircraft and the ATC (and the scanners/spotters of course haha), so no harm done there I would think.
the non english speaking one anoy me, pls upload to another channel! :)
No.
1st
1:21 Was that captainjoe???
OH my god you're right