Why Clone Wars Jedi are WAY Weaker Than Ancient Jedi - Star Wars Explained
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 лис 2023
- Thumbnail art By: www.deviantart.com/kain149/ar...
NEW STAR WARS MERCH PAGE: bit.ly/TheStupendousWaveMerch
For all sponsorship and business inquiries please contact:
Business: tmarvelouswave@gmail.com
Twitter: @StupendousWave
I believe all content used falls under the remits of Fair Use, but if any content owners would like to dispute this I will not hesitate to immediately remove said content. It is not my intent to in any way infringe on their content ownership. If you happen to find your art or images in the video please let me know and I will be glad to credit you.
End Song By WhiteSand "Eternity" • Whitesand - Eternity (...
Composer: Whitesand (Martynas Lau)
Year: 2017
Title: Eternity
Additional Music by WhiteSand: www.youtube.com/@WhitesandCom...
Spotify: open.spotify.com/artist/3GXun...
Bandicam: whitesand.bandcamp.com
Additional Music Terminus by: Scott Buckley
Released under CC-BY 4.0.
www.scottbuckley.com.au
Terminus: • 'Terminus' [Epic Cinem... - Розваги
The grandmaster forgot an important lesson from the past. The Sith ALWAYS return. In moving the order to a less battle focused organization she left future Jedi open to power of the Sith and their agents.
I do disagree with the notion of the Clone Wars era Jedi being weaker than the ancient Jedi. In terms of lightsaber combat, I’d argue that the Clone Wars era and even the NJO era’s had the best lightsaber duelists within the organizations history. For the CW era, they had a lot of time to refine their dueling skills since most of what they did outside of their assigned duties was spar.
For the NJO era Jedi, they had to build up new techniques from the ground up given how much of the archives for lightsaber combat of the Old Jedi Order were either lost or destroyed after Order 66. And unlike their predecessors, they were far more flexible and thus were able to branch out. Such as using blasters in conjunction with their lightsabers I.E Kyle Katarn, or wearing battle armor.
Sith were way smarter than the Jedi
@@chiquita683not really, they were cunning, manipulative, and sneaky.
Villains, or rather Sith especially, don’t need to consider anything but themselves
If you allow yourself to reach your goal through any means necessary, shit gets a bit easier
@kevinsanchez4808 NJO jedi were imo far stronger than clone wars jedi. Luke in legends fixed what he saw were problems with jedi teachings as well as jedi returning to a more battle focused organization due to constant fighting with imperial remnants then the vong.
@chiquita683 They had to be especially Banes era sith. While the jedi became more monk like, retreating from the common folk to do the Senate's bidding, the Sith were involved with the galaxy at large. They were businessmen and scientists. Entrepreneurs and engineers. They lead normal lives outside their Sith lives. This made them smarter and more experienced than any jedi of that era.
As Bane said in The Dark Kight Rises, "Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you". They became lazy and became too peaceful. Si vis pacem, para bellum. If you want peace, prepare for war.
This is the real life reason why Theodore Roosevelt said, to speak softly and carry a big stick.
They were more battle hardened. The Jedi of old were fighting the Sith, the Mandalorians, and other powerful enemies continuously. They had to keep their skills sharp in order to keep their edge against these powerful enemies..
clone wars jedi were overconfident as all they fought were some poor b1 battle droids :(
No. The old Jedi did not view the force in such light and dark terms. The force was just the force. They were more connected as such.
@@vrus91 I was referring to combat readiness, not their philosophy.
True. I never understood how they say they are keepers of the peace and not fighters. But they are always included in almost every way there is in old times and new.
Exactly ❤❤
It’d be my assumption that the Clone Wars Era Jedi could have been weaker due to having being clouded by the dark side. Plus I think the close knit ties with the republic probably didn’t help them either. I think how tight they were with the Republic could have been seen as a hindrance, especially when it comes to their ability to help the weak.
I agree. They also should have kept up their combat training rather than focusing solely on meditation and scholarly things. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. As proven by how many Jedi died during the Clone Wars.
Jedi n Sith during the old republic were forged in battle and faced some of the fiercest battles ever fought. They were waaaaaay more experienced and hardened because of it.
I agree to an extent with you Chiba. I believe that the second biggest hindrance for the Jedi was how tightly knit they were with the Republic and its Senate. While the dark side's cloud over the force was a bit of a hindrance, it didn't exactly pose that much of a threat to the Jedi. Anyone that needed to defend themselves against the Sith should have had access to the powers most suited for combatting the Sith. Overall, while they were "balanced" in their own terms of balance, they weren't balanced in the regards of the Force's idea of balance was. Darth Bane literally lead his own Sith Order to a massacre in order to rebuild it in his improved "Rule of Two" Order. This caused the Sith to cease their needless infighting and literally allowed them to continue growing more powerful in the galaxy right under the Jedi's noses. After all, how likely is an entire Light Side Order of 10,000 (Not really the actual number, but rather the terminology of plenty) to find 2 Sith out of themselves and an entire galaxy with likely billions if not trillions of people? I also believe that the first biggest hindrance for the Jedi is that they failed to recognize that their dogmatic views and practices. After all, what did their own dogmatic views and practices do? It literally blinded them to the growing darkness within members of their Order and also strengthened the dark veil that clouded their vision. Only people like Anakin and disillusioned dark Jedi, had the capabilities to see the truth beyond the dark veil. While countless of the Jedi didn't truly deserve to die, the Jedi Order did deserve its own downfall because of the dogma.
Well, Dark Side was a big problem before Clone Wars happened. Jedi Order several times was on a verge of complete destruction (like events of KOTOR 2), but each time Jedi were able to repel the tide because they were strong. Clone Wars Era Jedi were nothing but shade of former glory. They give up everything that made them strong warriors and become a punching bag for Sith and users of dark side. Clone Wars are logical conclusion of pathetic state they become
Being allied to the Republic may have blinded them, doesn't mean they'd be weaker though
I mean all of this can be summed up with "The Jedi of the Prequels Era had fewer opportunities to gain combat experience than Jedi in the past.
They were a little too successful in their mediation between the various worlds within the Republic, and didn't have to deal with any invasions from outside Republic space.
As a result the Prequel Jedi were a lot weaker than their predecessors."
This is definitely one of the reasons why the Jedi of the prequels were weaker. I feel though, that this reason wasn't as strong of a contributor as many would think.
Lack of the combat experience was only one problem that lead to humiliation in Clone Wars. Worst punch was change of Jedi philosophy - all this "Jedi are peacekeepers and not soldiers" together with prohibition to create families (by this Jedi exclude whole Jedi dynasty which produce tons of powerful jedi in each generation) - this was a deadly blow for Jedi order
@@hemlarclaevus4231 True, not ot forget that they kinda build their Temple on a Dark Side Nexus, that would have weakened their connection to the Force over time.
Also, Stagnant Water rots, Jedi couldn't keep up with the way the Republic was getting corrupt and couldn't correct corruption, because they removed themselves from Politics
Jesi are supposed to be both warriors and diplomats.
Thry shouldn't discard one for the success of the other.
After all, being battle hardened or ready to fight is necessary if you assume the role of a protector regardless if you're a negotiatot.
As Odin said: 'A wise king never seeks out war, but he must always be ready for it.'
The pact was a big park of the problem, but it was only a PART. Another huge factor was that the temple on Corusant was built over an older Sith site strong in the Darkside. The Jedi did this hoping that they would act as a cork to keep the Dark Side from welling up and negatively impacting the surrounding city/planet. However, whether or not they succeeded in that plan, generations of constant exposure to that nexus gradually weakened their own connection to the Light Side.
I remember hearing somewhere that the Sith shrine the temple was built over was known to Sidious, and he used it to his advantage against the Jedi, stifling their power, like how Yoda keeps saying: "The Dark Side clouds everything."
Ironically, that has happened in our history where churches, mosques etc. were built over former polytheists’ temples as a sort of symbolic victory of one religion over another.
@@MultiMachinegunnerbingo, he even kept it a secret from Vader.
KOTOR is set before Old Republic MMO and Kreia states "If you were to face one of the ancient Sith in combat, you would learn that we as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the Old Masters." Just imagine how powerful the ancient sith had to be considering that Nihlus himself could've ended all life in the galaxy and how strong the Jedi had to be in order to stop the Sith of their eras.
Which begs the question: Was the Force stronger even earlier in time from the ancient Sith? And why does the Force seem to be weakening over time? Would make an interesting story to find out why.
@@Lobsterwithinternet Definetly interesting, also a Plus, if we had KOTOR3 instead of SWTOR, the original idea for the True Sith in the Unknown Regions is that they were going to be really powerfull, like Nihilus-on-Steroids, Kinds of Powerfull. I believe i watched that on a 100%StarWars video somewhere.
I Think the old Sith & Jedi had more freedom to explore the boundaries of the Force, Learn Ancient Techniques that were during the Clone Wars forgotten and Lost due to many Wars.
Kreia does seem to think that the Force is basically a Puppet / Dungeon Master that controls the Fates of Everything, it will decide what will happen and how.
During the Clone Wars and centuries before, i think the Light Side was winning to much and the Force decided to just turn the Tables and wipe the Slate clean.
This why I got exar kun over revan and vitiate, exar kun has multiples estatement of being the most powerful and dangerous sith lord near 4000 years before the birth of luke Skywalker, also exar kun was chosen by the spirit of marka ragnos the most respected of the ancient sith lords
@@alsimmonshellspawn6021 Word of God has Malik within the Star Forge being on par with Exar Kun. Revan's a step above that, and Vitiate is on a completely different level.
@@Lobsterwithinternet I mean, nothing says entropy is not a universal concept in star wars as well.
Part of it is also the fact that a Force Wielder’s connection to the Force (and by extension, all the abilities the Force grants them including heightened wisdom) is supercharged by their choices. The more good a Lightsider, Jedi or independent, does, the stronger with the Light they become. And the crueler a Darkaider acts, the more his power in the Dark grows. When we catch up to the Jedi in the prequels, they’ve spent almost a millennia sitting on their hands doing nothing in the face of the non-Sith evils of the Galaxy, like the Hutts, criminal organizations like Black Sun, or the more corrupt aspects of the Republic. Every time they allow evil to persist, in any form, their connection to the Force weakens.
“Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” The Ancient Jedi dealt with Sith on a regular basis, the Clone Wars Jedi had a thousand years of peace and no real experience on how to fight against their ancient enemy
A oversimplified way to look at it is the biggest threats in the clone wars was basically a daily deal in the old Republic. We've seen what a squad of real Mandalorians can do, imagine armies of those with near daily conflicts. The CIS and CW Republic are laughable compared
Let me just say this. One Mandolorian, Jango Fett, killed many Jedi with just his hands. I doubt he couldve pulled that off easily against the old republics jedi.
Bounty hunter story you are hunted by jedi battlemaster jun seros and many other jedi. You end up finally meeting him on corellia and killing him after killing a lot of his jedi friends.
To be fair though, the mandalorians of that time were much stronger than the mandalorians during the clone wars.
@@davidk2023plus they built weapons to specially fight jedi.
The Jedi of the Prequels and Clone Wars had the greatest gap between their top members and their average members. They had powerhouses such as Yoda, Mace Windu, Dooku before he went Sith, and Anakin (and they were some of the most powerful in Jedi history). Then they had a bunch of cannon fodder jedi who would fall in combat to a squad of battle droids
Or clone troopers in the Jedi Temple. I know these clones were a part the 501st but those Jedi were dropping like flies. I’m surprised Grogu was able to be rescued in time. If it weren’t for Kelleran Beq, he would’ve been screwed. The whole time I was like you guys know you can deflect the blaster bolts back and do Force Push right?
@@Daron7181 without a doubt the clone wars made such a massive impact on how jedi fight blaster users, given unless i am wrong there is a very small amount of blaster usage vs light saber in the og trilogy.
@10tailedbijuu yes you make a very good point! After about 3 years worth of experience fighting in the Clone Wars, you think the Jedi Order would have made adjustments with their lightsaber/fighting styles to deal with the sheer amount of blaster-wielding enemies. I know the clones caught them off guard during Order 66, but the Jedi looked as though they didn't know how to deal with lots of blaster fire all around 🙄
@@jaredevans8263 You can't. It's impossible to block overwhelming blaster bolts coming at you simultaneously with a light saber. Even if you know it's coming. Only a force shield would work and most jedi of the time were not strong enough to create one. That's why Pals planned it that way. That's why the sith and the jedi had always used armies as well. No army, no victory.
Now imagine the prowess and the heights of power that Anakin would accomplish in the Old Republic.
Windu and Vapaad would be HIGHLY needed.
@kingatlanofatlantis3075 That would be awesome, especially since if I remember correctly ancient Jedi were watched but still allowed to form attachments. So I like to think Anakin would have thrived during this time. Windu would have been a pioneer in the Jedi arts and probably be the longest serving Jedi Grandmaster and Master of the order.
@@brilicusgaming6922 Especially if Master Satele or Bastila were the Grandmasters. They formed Attachments themselves and they would be more likely to accept it, while still being cautious and examine if the Person can handle it.
Spoiler for SWTOR:
like Example : If the player announces to the Entire Galaxy that they love Theron Shan, Satele Shan is happy that her son finally has a home because she struggled to give him what he wanted, Even if the player is a jedi.
@@galacticfirefly6060 Yeah and I think with time and patience Anakin would be able to handle the responsibility. Just imagine if Anakin received training by the force ghosts of Revan and his family, would be sick.
Although, a Galaxy at War, Between Jedi & Sith like in the Old Republic.
Having attachments as a jedi will also be a major Weakness, Sith can use it to bring harm to the Loved one or take Hostage.
Ofcourse that's on both sides the case, Darth Malgus killed his Wife because he saw her as a weakness that his enemies would use against him.
As example. It has its ups and downs.
@@galacticfirefly6060 Very true, that is a downside. Which would explain why Satele kept her son a secret for so long.
I read theories that the Jedi fell because they were too militant, that they had strayed too far from their purpose as peacekeepers. Then there’s the argument here that in fact, they may not have been militant enough. Seems like they were pretty much screwed either way.
Ironically the jedi themselves could not find balance between their ideals and the skill needed to enforce them.
Going to sound cynical but its better to be a warrior in a garden than a garden in a war, the jedi went from being warrior's to being a garden and they paid the price.
One of my favorite tidbits of KOTOR lore is how Revan would convert a lot of Jedi. He'd literally just kidnap them and drop them onto planets ravaged by war. The buildup from the war, the pain, the desperation, all those emotions? Just being there would convert many Jedi because they simply didn't know how else to deal with it.
Simple fact is if you don't know how to deal with the Dark Side, you'll lose. But dealing with the Dark Side is dealing with temptation, so most Jedi refuse to do so.
So yeah, if you confront the Dark Side you're inviting temptation, if you don't confront it and it confronts you, you fold like paper. It's quite the tightrope.
I think we need an old republic movie.
Had the jedi honed their combative abilities instead of sitting in their chambers and meditated. They would not have been drawn to the dark because they had so little combative training and discipline to fight toe to toe with sith lords without succumbing to the illusion of quick power via the dark side and been weakened by it further.
So, my thought is that the Jedi should have had "subgroups" that focused on different "social" disciplines. Some examples would be one for diplomat focus, one for combat focus, one for healing focus, and so on. This would allow for training and specialization in different forms of "diplomacy" and potentially cater to different abilities that some Jedi might be better at than others.
Ehh, they did this in both time periods, though likely to different amounts. In the Old Republic it’s mostly a result of being so heavily based off video games. You’ve got focuses on negotiation, espionage, and more direct fighting. Probably more too, though I’m forgetting specifics.
In material based around the movies, there are Jedi focused on more civic-minded tasks such as helping crops grow or being historians. They are certainly less focused on fighting before the clone wars.
To a degree certain skills are common across all Jedi, but I’d probably contribute it to general training, not all that specialized.
That Grand Master’s idea did mostly harm to the Jedi now she was right that they need more restrain but letting them cut combating training back so much had a toll that too harsh to pay. Another reason was the Force both dark and light was more pure in the Era of The Old Repbulic
Conflict strengthens and hardens, peace time erodes strength and hardness. The Jedi spent a millennia assuming they won and just needed to be peace keepers and servants. The Sith hid and spent a Millennia becoming more powerful. I mean watch Maul vs Qui Gon and Kenobi. Qui Gon was strong enough to warrant consideration for the Jedi Council. Qui Gon was bested quite emphatically and Obi Wan only prevailed because of Maul's arrogance at the end. These were two of the Orders best at the time. Revan would be ashamed of the weakness of the order leading up to the Clone Wars era.
Doing the right thing is never easy and it's never straight forward. So I don't blame Master Fae Coven for doing what he or she did. The road to tragedy is often paved with the best of intentions and the Jedi of that time as well as the Republic made it possible for their fall a thousand years later.
The Jedi's weakness in the Clone Wars is fully what Bane said in 'The Dark Knight Rises'. "Peace has defeated you". And I think its a stretch that even Anakin, Yoda, Mace, Plo or Obi-wan were at the level of the ancient Jedi. Anakin could have reached that level but he was still far away from it, he probably would have been on that level if he never received the dismemberment injuries and burns but it'd have taken him all his life to get there.
I believe at least in legends vader attributes becoming a superior duelist to when he was Anakin because of the dismemberment. He was naturally talented and athletic as anakin which he somewhat leaned on. Once he was dismembered he reevaluated his fighting and saber techniques of the jedi in general and realized how much wasted movement had been taught to him and other jedi. Basically anakin had a brain that was just as gifted as his other attributes like using the force and his athleticism but because he was so good at using the force and being athletic he never used his brain to it’s full potential when analyzing and developing his lightsaber tactics but once he was restricted in the suit he put that brain to work. Basically I’m not sure if anakin would have even reached that level in some regards because he himself needed challenges to live up to his potential.
Isn't Yoda literally stated to be the greatest adversary the dark side has ever faced and Sidious is literally stated to be the strongest sith in history and Yoda being his rival just puts them above even the likes of vitiate and revan
@@YuviSG02 Both don't live up to the ancient Sith and Jedi.
@@YuviSG02Both of those quotes predate the creation of TOR and so are irrelevant.
Or it could be simply talking about Palpatine and Yoda in Canon since TOR was not Canon. 😊
Your absolutely right .
Arrogance and lazyness by the time of the clone wars the sith hid so well that the Jedi were arrogant enough to think they was gone and there training for battle wasn’t as focused on
The two Old Republic examples were bosses and that armor they wear was awesome. Malgus on rhe other hand was a beast, clever too.
Actually, funny you show Revan while talking about this. Revan in the middle of one of the largest implosions of the Jedi Order. The implosion started with the Jedi Civil War with Exar Kun, the scorching of Ossus, after which Revan, then the last few members of the orders got themselves killed during the whole Jedi Exile matter.
The Jedi Exile's friends and a few others had to rebuild the Jedi Order from scratch. Though, they did a good job, by the time Republic/Sith Empire War (SWTOR) started, the Jedi had a number of heavy hitters.
One issue is that Lucas believed the Republic Era (Clone War Era) Jedi to be the greatest Force users ever......
They were the strongest......
And Palpatine was supposed to take advantage of that fact that their power lead to their arrogance.... and thus, to their defeat....
Excellent analysis. Greatly thought out and an entertaining video.
These videos are simply awesome! Keep them coming! Make a lore based on everything about the jedi as well as the sith and everything else there is! Pretty, please!
the Jedi were weakened the moment that they failed to produce Darth Bane and Darth Zannah's corpses they did not finish their job that and the fact they started playing games with the senate. in the mandalorian wars the council had the choice not to fight while the Sith were playing games with the Jedi during the clone wars
Darth Bane, not Malgus
@@MultiMachinegunnerWas gonna correct you, but you already did. 😂
@@MultiMachinegunner misspoke myself I was thinking of the book and the film was showing Malgus thank you lol
The Jedi were obsessed with balance but never actually balanced anything they was always fully one side like yes it’s great to try to talk things out but how are you going to protect anyone if savage oppress can just pick up a saber and tear through you
Generally I'd disagree on principle that there's a difference based solely on the depictions. Limitation of real life actors, VS animated characters VS video game cinematics are going to show very different styles.
Within the culture and history though, you have a point. KOTOR and TOR and the New Sith Wars pre Ruusan were mostly warriors. The Late Republic Jedi Masters were more diplomats and monks over combat training.
It's important to note that the New Sith Wars lasted for millenia in part because different Jedi teachings in different enclaves resulted in not insignificant Jedi falling to the dark side and joining the Sith. The wars were extended because the Jedi couldn't keep all members together. Ruusan reformation changed this, centealizing the training of Younglings and barring induction of older Padawan. And the system seemed to have worked for nearly a thousand years, until they broke their own rules and broke their own principle. If a Jedi is not to form attachments, then the Jedi order itself cannot be too attached to the Republic, but they had become so intertwined with the Senate they were doomed to political bickering and corruption. Yoda even fails to warn the Senate of their limitations due to an emerging threat in the Dark side to retain political power among the Senate.
Yeah I hate that the clone wars era gets downplayed just cuz it seems less impressive and raw than the Old Republic it’s very lazy surface level shit and just biased tbh
It also ignores how Post Bane era aka Rule of Two sith work, Bane set up the rule of two to continually strengthen the Sith by each generation being stronger than the last and focusing the dark side on two only not to mention especially in legends his actual power and the power of the master is passed on to the student so each successor was already stronger than their master plus gains their power and the power of the previous ones that’s why Sidious is literally one of the strongest Sith in history until surpassed by later ones in the EU.
Now there are some ancient Sith and Jedi that are far beyond the norm like Emperor Vitiate who is not bound by the rule of two, or Revan (not Jedi or Sith they are weak compared to his peak), Maul and Savage are also very strong even tho they ain’t in the line up tho Maul was being groomed for it a bit and grew on his own after he was replaced ofc
Now there is a big gap between the bottom and top Jedi, I think you can argue the average Jedi in the clone wars era was weaker maybe cuz they did not train for combat against Sith or many blaster based opponents as much this is seen in the movie where most died cuz they were not as skilled and experienced protecting from a massive barrage of blasters. Also without Sith they did not need to train in saber to saber combat as hard.
But the names Jedi we know and especially the main cast were quite powerful likely would beat most Old Republic Jedi due to their scaling to modern Sith who should be stronger yet it depends ofc
I suspect that the bigger issue is how weakened the jedi capabilities had become in force by the time of prequels. In the old republic era the jedi could heal the wounded, cut down a legion, or use the force to provide insights to turn the tide of battle. During the reformation the jedi they gave up developing these kinds of abilities because they believed it strayed from their beliefs and lead to the darkside. This is the issue the jedi instead of preparing for the next sith war and evolving their abilities in the force to prepare for the next evolution of the sith instead became the enforcers of the galactic republic.
By the Clone wars the Jedi had weakened for two specific reasons. Firstly the Rule of Two Sith meant that the Jedi went from being the front line defenders to the Senate's glorified police force, which made them less effective as Commanders and Warriors in the Clone Wars, roles that were once their bread & butter, and caused the Republic to lose faith in them.
The second reason is that the Order's dogmatic view meant that the Jedi had to act and train in a way to produce an ideal Jedi rather than the kind of Jedi its members could have been. The Battle of Geonosis shows this fault as so many Jedi practised the Sixth Lightsaber form 'Niman' not because of its practicability but because it lacked the Order's criticism for Dark Side tendencies. And it resulted in multiple Jedi being killed not by Sith, but mass produced droids.
Now look at the Jedi during the Empire, Cal, Kanen and Ezra, and Ahsoka in a way, they weren't fully trained Jedi or had access to the Oder's secrets but they knew what they needed to know to serve the people around them and they made an impact because they developed as Jedi in their own way. Whereas so-called true Jedi like Yoda and Obi-Wan spent the rest of their lives in hiding
What happened to all the "forbidden" and withheld/secret knowledge & artifacts/documents after Order 66? Did any of it get smuggled out before the temple fell or did it all pretty much fall into the hands of the Empire/Sith?
Edit: btw I agree with what you said 👍
@@lastmanstanding-xp3ub Thanks. I think the majority of artifacts and knowledge the Jedi had were confiscated by the Sith/Empire. Only a few Jedi survivors had access to a holcron like Kanan in Star Wars Rebels.
@@user-tx3ho6fl3sThank you for the reply. Was it ever mentioned how/who/when/where/etcetera Kanan/Caleb Dume got his holocron? I don't remember it being specified or anything in Rebels unless I missed something. I suppose though, that if he had a modern Jedi Holocron (I assume it wasnt found in another temple, possibly ancient/very old, similar to the Sith one they acquired since it had recordings of Anakin on it) that some items of significant value to the Jedi/Sith made it out of the Coruscant temple vault. Was the forbidden stuff also on those Holocrons though? I would think that type of stuff (Dark Side/Sith knowledge and/or techniques or just the "good stuff" so to speak) would be on separate or different Holocrons and/or repositories of some kind.
@@lastmanstanding-xp3ub I think it was explained in a comic series how Kanan got his holocron. Can't remember which
The closest Force Sensitive that could battle the Sith War era could be the Jensaarai. They have the proper armor and not limited to the Jedi's aversion to use Dark Side Force techniques.
Anyway What If the Yuuzhan Vong invaded the galaxy after the Sith Empire sacked Coruscant in KOTOR. With the Sith war in KOTOR, both Sith&Republic being weakened by their war, it's the best opportunity for the Vongs to invade the galaxy.
they really should have kept more combat training in their order while using it as a means of mediation. Order 66 would have been a joke at that point.
What is sad is that, although they decided to be scholars and researchers, they were actually focusing politics, since the Old Republic also have jedi consulars focused on the study of the Force, seers, archives and Holocrons and active exploration of ruins and planets.
I think that even in meditation they were lacking compared to the Old Republic jedi, so they became the republic diplomats and ambassadors, not Force researchers and meditation experts.
i think it was a wise decision to focus more on peace, however they failed to adapt to war when it came. whether or not they went too far into peace i am unsure of however it was still a good decision to walk towards peace. its not about if it help the jedi its about if it helps the galaxy, that is what the jedi are for
This was the whole point of Darth Banes plan…reference the trilogy
As my simple mind sees it. Old republic jedi knights are warriors because they are constantly getting pulled into war. Whereas the clone war aera jedi are peace keepers who where dragged into a war they where never trained for.
Same as the soldiers of the 2 aeras old republic troopers not only had to fight sith troopers but siths, dark jedi, mandalorians and the forgotten empire armies.
The clones faught well against droids but seem to struggle against other organic troopers/ militias
The Old Republic era Jedi were beasts forged by constant war/skirmishes/etc and taking part in Republic military operations and having frequent contact with Sith. If you couldn't fight, you wouldn't live long. Ironically, I think Banes rule of Two weakened the Jedi significantly. They didn't have other force users with completely opposite philosophies to cut their teeth against frequently in combat. Just the occasional dark jedi. They grew complacent, while the Sith continued to become monstrous power houses in the shadows, able to steep themselves in the dark side with little to no interruption and evolving into complete freaks that 99.9% of Jedi had no chance against.
I think the part about Savage and Adi Gallia was a bit of a given mistake to send someone like her to deal with Maul & Savage regardless of the era. I mean, just look at the differences in size between her and Savage or even Maul for that matter. I know that Saber skill & The Force can be equalizing factors, but it can only go so far when essentially the nature of Jedi/Sith combat is typically melee style sword (lightsaber) fighting with martial arts (hand to hand fighting or hand/foot to head, ribs, knees, etc) thrown in when an opening arises that cant be exploited by the saber for whatever reason but can be by a punch or kick, and Force push/pull, throwing objects, lightning, etcetera, but Adi Gallia (to my knowledge) wasnt THAT powerful/skilled in the Force or lightsaber dueling to make up for the physical strength and power differences between her and Savage so eventually she just got overwhelmed by sheer strength after she couldn't exploit a breakthrough with her lightsaber, and her kick to Savages knee didnt even hardly phase him.
Edit: My point is, essentially, that any Jedi & Sith/Dark sider of any era with the same differences, in the same or similar situation/scenario would likely result in the same outcome as theirs did, but thats just my opinion though, dont know if anyone else thinks the same or not.
Well, you have a point by considering real life combat. But the use of the force really change stuff, because one of the things that happen is that force users can insight a strike before it even is dealt, and with longer limbs and stronger but slower attacks it might be even easier to act in advance by someone faster. Them we trow the force being used to make people phisically stronger and also faster and the we have a lot of wild cards to even consider. In the end, in the moment magic is envolved, annalizing by real life logic begins to be extremelly hard. As we are talking about a fictional universe, we can simply ignore real life logic and evaluate with the info the writers give us.
Honestly I think that an old republic series would be an absolute banger especially since we have so many details of what happened before the original movies and because the fights would look ten times more incredible ( not that there weren't any good ones in the movies)
I agree. Ancient Jedi fought wars constantly. Sith mostly,Mandalorians. They were complete test. Jedi swayed too much in peace. It's ok they studied scholarship and peace but they should have also study combat,lightsaber training,tactics,it doesn't matter if it was military tactics they should have learn that. That was big mistake. May the Force be with you too,see you soon
Someone else argued that the Jedi kept getting more powerful all the time while the Sith also did by definition. I don't know what's correct, but this makes much more sense and seems less stupid. That guy had these videos ranking everyone on both sides by power, and in spite of carefully considering everything, this one thing made them just be ranked by place in the timeline.
If they had focused on being one with the force instead of focusing on politics they would have not been so weak in the Clone Wars era.
That depends, in the films the jedi were people that could be overcome by bugs using a gun. In the 2d animated show they could fight Goku. In the 3d show even young children were several leagues above the common jedi in the movies.
Isn't it as simple as their narrowing of focus on the force and extreme de-specialization? All Jedi were taught like Consular with guardian accents in the Clone Wars era. Barely any pure paths (guardians separate from consular), no proper enemy to keep them sharp, and a wee bit of arrogance
Sounds like they went to far to the peace side of their training and probably just believed that Sith were gone for good so they slack off on that part. For me no matter what you do you should always try to keep balance in your life don’t just be all about work take time to kick back but by the same token don’t spend all the time kicking back like I said balance anyway have good one
I don't think it was necessarily Fae Coven's ideas that weakened the jedi so much, but more the fanatical dogmatism to those ideas. They became too close minded and when a galaxy wide war broke out they were unable to adapt because they were too tied to peace.
The rule of two created more powerful sith lords with every Generation. The Clone wars jedi would be stronger than the sith lords in the past. Yoda, someone who can contend with the culmination of the rule of two in sidious, would beat all of the jedi of the old republic.
As long as Disney has Star Wars I won't expect to ever see any content like this in live action
I think that if balance is the goal, then balance is what should be strived for; I think it was Niels Bohr that was one of the scientists who strongly furthered our understanding if molecular science, and was also a gold medal Olympic athlete. One example of how you can specialize (he had specific Olympic events and his area of expertise in science) without fully limiting yourself, and how you can have balance, at least in my opinion.
Soooo good!!!
I believe, that they should have split the Jedi Order into two Fractions (nothing they would have reasonably done, considering their Past). Maybe not Factions, but an inner Group, directly under the Council, that would train in the "Old" Path to keep the Teachings alive and to be send to High Risk Missions. Like "We send a Jedi Master and his Jedi-Knight Padawan, they died, Risk levels. Dooku would have fit in there perfectly, because it would be a Reminder, that the Dark Side always Exists, as does the Light Side. The Masters of that Group could have doubled as Chiefs of Security or Advisors and be a last Bastion of Defense for the Temples they are assignd to.
They were forced to end military training by Ruusan Reformation Act. Which obviously had an effect on their skills and abilities, as they became diplomatic assistants and negotiators. Even their roles in the Watchmen corps was diminished. On top of this, was 1000 years of complacent ideology believing the Sith went extinct. Here the Sith did a fantastic job of seeking out and quelling anyone who dared to dabble in the Dark Side, well before the Jedi found out about it.
Known issue with the clone wars jedi... even though they did get stronger for actually practicing and dualing... they were much weaker because they concentrated on being not over-powering to the rest of the galaxy, and the galaxy took advantage of that too... the galaxy needed the jedi to be warriors but still be the good guys... when the galaxy forgot how bad the sith were, that was when they ruined the universe with grand power.
We need more Cal Kestis lore similar to the Galen Marek lore that we have
I do think sometimes the best answer is that it was written or animated that way. One is a fantastic game trailer for an mmorpg that was meant to sell subscriptions. The other is a children's tv show. Different forms of media for different audiences.
Only a fool isn’t ready for war.
One thing that I question is that what happened to all of that momentum from Ven Zillow when he was spinning, I would assume it would continue though he could freeze up from the pain
Its ironic really as meetra once asked treira about her views on the old jedi and sith and it was just as great a comparison. They just don't make em like they used to anymore.
I remember Kreia saying something like current Jedi/Sith were only playing at their parts in comparison to the past Masters. The Jedi of the Clone Wars era were much weaker and too political as they went from warriors of light to tools of the Senate. As sad as it was, Order 66 or even just the Civil War was what the Order needed to grow from stagnation.
Because the ancient jedi had balance in the force, they didn't always dismiss the dark side and only focus on the light they, followed both
The jedi forgot that you only have peace when you have those strong enough to keep the peace
"Peace has cost you your strength, victory has defeated you." - Palpatine probably
I feel it was the dogma of the Jedi. They went away from allowing their members to explore the Force and their combat ability. It was as Yoda stated, "Too sure of themselves they are." Arrogance and hubris. The thinking that the lightsaber was enough to have one's enemy surrender.
Another reason why Old Republic is the best!
Going to spend a shit ton of time playing SWTOR around the holidays
After 1000 straight fighting the new sith.. I don't blame em for completely changing things...but they should've kept at least their saber skills at high level, if Dooku would've listened to Yoda,he would've of been one of the best duelists of all time
Also, Ancient Republic Jedi would have been able to successfully defend the Temple against an attack from the Clones.
Its the same with the Sith and Mandalorians. Their old republic counterparts were just on a whole other level and even then Darth Traya said that when compared the sith her and her group were like mere children
I think this is why darth bane came up with the rule of 2, in order to beat the jedi, they had to lower their guard, and he was so confident in the power of the dark side that he felt 2 sith could destroy all jedi, and he was right in a way that the sith could rely on their deception and shadows to use the jedis strengths against them
You should do a what if video on if Kenobi was born in the old republic
I don't think this video or star wars in general elaborates on the advantages training for peace more than training for war. Its always mysterious. "Strike me down and I shall become more powerful than you can ever imagine." Star Wars is framed for conflict. Its in the name. Here's a real world disadvantage for always training for war: People who fight all the time can be easily goaded to fight each other. They eat their own. An eye for an eye leaves both parties blind. To constantly compete they might take drugs to further screw with their judgment... leading to more mistakes.
I like to think that Plo Koon would be a worthy old republic Jedi. He’s wise, and strong. Debatably even the top 5 of the clone wars Jedi order as far as strength. Especially since he was one of 2 to defeat yoda in a sparring match.
The dark side had weaned the jedis ability to use the forces. ( episodes two )
A few years ago I read that an average ancient Jedi would have been able to dismantle most members of the Clone Wars Jedi Council. MAYBE Windu could put up a fight but the only two I think may have any real chance were Yoda.
I remember reading that, officially, the lightsaber technique of the CW jedi were the highest they had ever been.
Yet have spent over 1000 years haven’t fought a sith
Maybe in blaster deflection but not blade to blade as dooku said the Jedi lacked which is why he got angry
@@ATalesTruth- i think that's more to dooku being a perfectionist with his lightsaber technique than an actual care of general performance with the jedi. he enjoyed being "the best."
I remember reading vader having the opinion a lot of clone war era Jedi saber techniques had needless bloat. Once vader had to reevaluate how he fought due to his suit he truly saw how much wasted movement there was. Nick gillard hated the idea of the 7 forms in canon as it’s actually really restrictive to swordsman.
I'd say there were more just some standout exceptions. Yoda and his 800 years of life experience obviously would be a powerhouse dualist. Dooku and Anakin were both total lightsaber nerds and Windu was kind of was too. Most of the other Jedi though weren't all that big on saber to saber combat.
@@persuasivebarrier2419 actually no he said he wanted the Jedi to be the best they can be yet are no respectful to the blade nor dedicate Thor time to appreciate it and alll it has to offer
Which is why he saw most of all the Jedi inferior
Not because he was perfectionist but because they lacked true respect for the lightsaber to the point the Jedi treat it less and thus use it less for true purpose
I mean there is a reason form 6 was kinda dropped after the clone wars started
Because the Jedi who don’t master all the forms and try to use form 6 which balances them all die
As showcases in attack of the clones and those throughout the clone wars
It’s because they want the benefits of using everything in moderation without having to master everything
As you can only use form 6 effectively if you actually mastered all the other forms of lightsaber combat to the point of second nature
Which is one of the reasons they Jedi sucked with a lightsaber
As they’d didn’t master the blade in every form till it was second nature
As only like 1% or all the Jedi mastered all forms of lightsaber combat
And the rest they didn’t master enough or not geared themselves to lightsaber combat as much as they should have
Which is why most died to Vader after order 66
As most of the Jedi of the time sucked as duelist except the likes of obi won anakin yoda mace dooku and perhaps a few others
But out of the hundreds to thousands of jedi non actually developed their skills of the blade
You can study peace all you want, but if you aren't prepared to keep it you are no threat at all. I believe it was Theodore Roosevelt who said "Speak softly, and carry a big stick." No truer words have been spoken, and it really should've applied to the Jedi. Fae Coven would have done well to keep that perspective in her mind when writing her book.
Alot of the dwindling of their power was due to the Ruusan Reformation and its dearming being a direct elimination of the Jedi Lords insane power at the time. Believing the Sith exterminated was another huge factor.
Once, I watched a video where someone said something like the Sith of the Old Republic were so weak which is why the republic troopers could actually kill them. I couldn’t even finish the video. It wasn’t bad or anything, but it made no sense. The people who can spawn mini lightning storms indoors, heal themselves instantly in the middle of a fight, can hurl themselves at insane speeds at enemies, place literal curse on enemies that makes them violently deteriorate and so on, are weak. More likely said Republic troopers are just well trained or numerous enough to Order 66 some Sith.
You’re absolutely right . I believe that the Jedi and sith during the time of the Old Republic were stronger than the Jedi and sith of the clone wars era , was because both factions were constant battle with each other and never had time to rest while during the clone wars , the Jedi became too comfortable in the so called peace era . If you really think about it . There’s not a lot of sith during the clone wars , yes there’s Darth Maul , count dooku ,Vader , savage operas and assaj ventress , Darth sidious , you could say Barris was also a sith but that’s up for debate . I think the reason why there are only a few sith during the clone wars era and only two during the imperial era , is because of the events that happened on korrben when Darth Revan left the sith empire , Bastia , Revans apprentice/wife says that the sith kill each other of what little power they possess , and if you really think about it, the Sith are their own destruction . Because all they do is Backstabbed each other and kill each other . While the sith can not really be destroyed because the sith is more of a religion then say a group of people or a race of people . It was just a religion that Darth siduous and Darth Vader follow . Same as the Jedi .
"Peace has cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you"
Hey coach. It's been a long time since I have commented. Your channel is my favorite basketball channel up there with Thinking basketball 🏀. 3 requests: please do a deep dive into explaining movement without the basketball 🏀. 2) please do a break down on the Pistons, although I am a Knickerbockers fan, I think they have enough talent to win NBA Finals Championship this year or next year. Why isn't it working? They have the coach. Second time that they have hired a coach of year winner right after being fired by his previous team. I don't think that they are tanking. Why have they lost 14 in a row? Last game they were losing by 1 point to the historic offense that is Haliburton and the Pacers entering the 4th quarter. The Pacers scored the average score of the first 3 in the 4th. They were able to keep up with the these world beaters for three quarters and they have lost 14 in row? That doesn't add up. 3) give my Knickerbockers some love of your deep analysis at some point during this season pretty please. I know you have a relationship with Thibodeaux but to what degree I am not sure . Even if it is on one of these myriad of Knicks UA-cam channels. What they running might be nice.
"Blaster wielding opponents were no threat"...mandalorians left the chat
There's more to life than war, so Jedi being more balanced between spiritual growth, diplomacy and healing, and martial arts during peacetime does seem more efficient. I do not like the idea of becoming weak just to not intimidate the public, but just learning to use the Force for combat feels like the Force is being under-utilized.
I mean. They had enough data on the old republic to be prepared. They was just naive and stubborn.
For the Jedi, generation after generation, the power ceased to be a part of their world, like air or water. She became a tool in their hands.
-10:17 I believe, that has to do something about it, gone to far what they were attended for, as peace keepers
While the average Jedi was weaker, it should be pointed out the clone wars had also some of strongest Jedi to ever live such as Anakin, plo koon, Yoda, mace windu, and former Jedi count dooku
It's always the Jedi struggle. Confront the Dark to much and 9/10 that Jedi falls. Don't confront the Dark and if you get to a situation where it confronts you, 9/10 you fall.
One of my favorite lore bits from KOTOR is that Revan was able to turn some Jedi just by bringing them to places like Malachor, the sheer Dark Side energies would corrupt those that did not know how to deal with it.
That tightrope, of learning how to face the Dark if it comes to them but not being seduced by it, it's just so hard to do. There's a reason characters like Yoda or (canon) Meetra are so rare, genuinely light side users that directly confront the dark and never bend.
In the words of lord bane the wise "peace has cost you your strength... victory has defeated you..." Then proceeds to break batm...shaak it's back
Nice image of Revan with a green lightsaber that was.
I don't like how ppl keep on saying that luminara lost to ventress
1. Her vision was clouded she was literally seeing out of one eye and was literally still holding her own and the only reason she lost was bcuz ventress did wtv she did with those pipes and again adi Gallia was also holding her own against savage we literally see that she only lost bcuz she tried to kick him but he was too TUFF and then be rammed into her like....such cow behavior
A better combatant would know that kicking someone that much larger wouldn't have worked.
Yes I can see how the new policies harmed the Jedi when they had to become warriora again
They lost so much changing their ways. If they hadn't maybe Sidious would not have taken so advantage of them
I like that there was a lot of content to talk about. However, I think you need to display some of your text on screen as a visual aid. In the future, I think you could give copyright credit in each frame, for the artists.
Strength is a necessity there will always be conflict
This is something that I have contemplated for a long time. I feel that the Jedi did become too dedicated to peace after the days of the Old Republic. This was a big mistake, in my opinion. The Jedi should have kept the same martial philosophy from the days of the Old Republic. They would have been much stronger by the time Sidious came around and attempted to execute Order 66. As was stated here, blaster wielding opponents were jokes to the Jedi of old. Had the Jedi been like Ven Zallow and his contemporaries during Order 66, they would have owned the Clones.
Thats exactly why different members should have different specialities, you can give the order a new more peace related focus, but still there should be some members (like the temple guards) that are more trained in combat, so if the sith returned, they would have a better chance to defeat them.
Experience fighting Sith and Mandos and the many coflicts in the galaxy probably helped
The jedi were weakened they went from one extreme to the other instead of somewhere that would have kept them combat sharp and still balanced enough with everything else the jedi stood for.
Where does all this cool combat footage come from? What am I missing out on????
Jeti became complacent. I should’ve immediately changed your training back to the old ways once they knew the sith were a foot 🦶