Here is the non airgunner guff, the actual science/ engineering: You want to impart as close to 12FtLbs energy into a projectile as possible, there are 3 factors to the ballistic bell graph. Mass volume and resistance. Example: A low mass, low volume pellet will require a lot more energy directly applied to it in the barrel because its hard to put a lot of anything into something "small". Additionally a smaller diameter bore with a small diameter pellet will have a higher friction coefficient than a slightly larger "small" diameter pellet as the ballistic bell curves show that as contact cross sections increase from small to slightly less small the friction per contact reduces to the top of the bell curve where to keep things simple; if you need an ultra higher power projectile for a workable energy input the charge size to cross section/mass reduces, BUT that again falls into a bell graph. There is also the ballistic bell curve graphs for barrel length: energy in, bore diameter, mass of projectile, cross section of projectile and LENGTH OF BARREL (needed to be optimised for length of barrel to impart energy before the length of barrel friction to energy transfer ratio declines). Here is the reality of airguns in the UK, they are power restricted, NOTHING else is restricted other than pistol/rifle lengths, so a half pound 0.5" cal slug is a non-starter! .177 or .22 does not matter, the power restriction is the only factor. So check out honest reviews, pick a gun you like and can afford in the calibre of your choice. Test pellets for your chosen rifle that are accurate and powerful enough for your needs and crack on with it. I have 2 JTS Airacuda Max rifles. One .22, the other .177, I weigh and grade all the pellets I use. Both guns can consistently hit a 6mm target at 25 yards (85%), both can consistently hit a 12mm target at 35 yards (80%). The guns use completely different pellets (Make/type/mass) and that took 2 years of testing pellets! The only thing that I can add is. With the pellets and guns I use, I get a 3 to 2 shot ratio per charge. 3 x .22 total shots to 2 x .177 per cylinder charge (like I stated smaller takes more energy). Both guns are shrouded, been re-crowned and have silencers, the .177 makes slightly more of not much noise.
Excellent vid lads, interesting stuff, a pellet test in each rifle would made the accuracy a bit more conclusive with the group results, nevertheless on the " best calibre " question, there is NO DOUBT no doubt WHATSOEVER that . 20 is the best and most effective calibre for accuracy , and when I'm at the range with mine, ( weihrauch ) the amount of birds you can pull is unreal, there all over me... . 20 is a man's calibre, just like BRUT the aftershave and clean pair of "Y" front pants.. Ya just can't go wrong
I remember the same calibre argument going on in the early eighties,and probably went on long before that - and nothing’s changed really - it’s about knowing your set up and understanding it’s advantages and disadvantages. Personally I like .177 with a medium weight pellet because the flatter trajectory is a real benefit with range judging being so critical.
I'm a target shooter but have recently been researching lead-free pellets for a family member who has a pest-control task in an environment which must remain lead-free. None are as accurate as lead pellets but my .177" AA TX200 does a very acceptable job with H&N Match Green pellets. The usual ammunition (JSB Exact 8.4 grain) chronos at 10.5 ft-lb but the lightweight (5.25 grain) H&Ns chrono at 11.1 ft-lb and have an impact point 35mm higher at 25 yards. Muzzle velocity is 970 ft/sec. Now *that's* a flat trajectory.
The Maths shows your retained power to be correct, this is how much energy each pellet will keep at 50 yards assuming you believe in Energy = 1/2 MV squared. Typical Ballistic Coefficients: .177 pellet (7.9 grains): BC ≈ 0.012 - 0.020 .22 pellet (14.3 grains): BC ≈ 0.025 - 0.035 Energy at 50 Yards: Using typical BC values and online ballistic calculators for airguns, we can estimate the remaining energy at 50 yards. .177 Pellet (7.9 grains, BC 0.012): Starting Energy: 11 ft-lbs Energy at 50 Yards: ~4.5 - 5.0 ft-lbs .22 Pellet (14.3 grains, BC 0.030): Starting Energy: 11 ft-lbs Energy at 50 Yards: ~6.5 - 7.0 ft-lbs Conclusion: The .22 pellet retains more energy (about 6.5-7 ft-lbs) at 50 yards compared to the .177 pellet (about 4.5-5 ft-lbs) due to its higher ballistic coefficient and heavier mass.
I have been an air rifle fan for about 50 years. Back in the early 70s it was all 22, it's bigger so it must be better. I fell into that trap. Brand new BSA mercury in 74. I still own it now, it's crap and with hindsight it always was. Then in 78 I bought a new hw 35. The quality was amazing, but still a 22. Next a feinworkbau in 177. I've only owned 177 since! The accuracy at range is so easy to judge compared to the lumbering 22! I still shoot today ( s 400) sub 12. Nowerdays I find 9. 57 grains to be the perfect weight for me. 177 is the best calibre!!
Great video, chaps. Long video but kept me watching until the end. Same gun, same pellet, different calibres. Entertaining comparison (although BSA or H&N pellets seem to suit BSA barrels better in my experience). I'm just a target shooter and would select .22" for outdoor and .177" for indoor competition (but that's just me: your mileage may vary). Interesting to hear comments re mil-dots and hold-over. Perhaps scopes are a subject for a future video? Calculating hold-over for a particular scope is a great subject for mental arithmetic: suiting engineers, darts-players and FT shooters perhaps? Over the years I have acquired a collection of scopes in milli-radians and minutes of angle, in first and second focal plane. My current favourite is the Hawke Sidewinder (no affiliation) with the second focal plane SR Pro II reticle. Set the zoom for your particular gun and ammunition and you get hold-over points without the maths. 😀
So in this test, the 177 shoots tighter groups at all ranges. It obviously is always going to drop less at all ranges. That makes one answer clear the 177 is a more accurate gun.(yes pellet choice will make a difference but good pellets tend to vary less and the groups suggest they suit the guns ok) ). When it comes pellet drop both pellets drop at the almost the same speed, accelerating downwards at 9.8m/s2 with air resistance in drop having minor affect. Air resistance or drag coefficient will affect the faster pellet more so it sheds energy more in flight. The only reason I can see for choosing a 22 over a 177 is if you wish to impart more energy on target. As mentioned in the video penetration will vary with size so needs to be taken into account.
Sorry I pressed send before finishing. I was going to add I prefer the 22 pellets in a target pistol to 177. Will be an interesting test on Saturday at the range, to see drop off at different distances with this pistol. At 50 yards the computer says no!
One thing I took from this is that these guns would be incredible if the UK didn't have such a silly low max ft pounds. Even 15-20 would allow these to be super accurate to 40
I watched the whole thing... Lighter projectiles lose velocity faster (VxM-drag), which is why the .22 started to catch up with the .177 at 60 yards (no longer double the drop). However, since most people won't be shooting out to that distance with an air rifle like that, the reduced BDC of the .177 makes it easier to shoot, plus the groups were a little nicer with that brand of pellet. 👍 I'm a big fan of either single magnification scopes or single focal plane zooms if you just have to go there. Double focal plane zooms with BDC reticles are a bit stupid, since it makes the BDC part of the reticle meaningless. My spotting scope is a cheap Chinese 300x compact telescope with 1/4" tripod mount ($25). Is it great? Well no, but it is great for the price and I can see what's happening out to 100 meters no problems, and it's tiny enough to keep in my range bag permanently. It's a case of "best" is the one you have in your hand.
Very interesting information, I am in US so not sure those results would be the same with hi power .22 vs .177. I personally have a few of each caliber, I find the .177 a pain to handle and or load especially in a spring gun, however for shooting in my basement range the .177 are safer, not as much power, but in my outdoor range I much prefer the higher calibers. Either way I agree with you guys there is no clear cut better caliber, depending entirely on situation. Always enjoy your videos. Thanks.
Comparing equal weight pellets would be interesting as the 22 seemed better at distance in dealing with wind. A 177 pellet has a smaller profile so should catch the wind less. In theory a heavy 177 should be best in a wind but may drop even more than a 22 of equal weight.
I would have originally said that sub 12 is 177 for pellet speed and fac .22 and above. BUT.. Some ratters like .25 in sub 12 for short shots. So it's really a case of what you want the gun for. I now say any sub 12 for ratting. 177 for longer shots and .22 and above for FAC But obviously there is going to be a different reply to me and it's welcome because it's all down to your own choice
I think they are right. No clear winner. I shoot BSAUltra CLX in my garden up to 50m. Choose a lighter Pellet (one I'm using is BSA goldstar) and there's less drop on the ,.22 than shown here. If you know the range (I use a golf range finder) amrita at 50m the .22 goes good groups around the bull (with hold over) and the .177 is more spread out. Come down to 20-30m and the ,177 benefits from not much variation in drop. There's no straightforward answer to this. I like them both and use each one under different conditions.
Super carbine and carbine so does the barrel length have any difference I’d say 177 all day long but my stage 2 tuned fire fly is a 22 and is just wow.
I'm convinced .22 caliber pellets are better quality on average than .177 because of their size. Meaning the smaller the size the harder it is to manufacture accurately.
This old chestnut eh? Always a good for a bit of content lol. Here's the answer , they are just as accurate as eachother provided you know your pellet weight and arc. At lower powers the .177 has a flatter trajectory so if you're doing some target work (especially with lower powered target orientated pistols) then .177 is for you. But as previously stated that's at lower power levels, for hunting(especially with fac rifles) the .22 will be more accurate and hold more power at target PROVIDED YOU KNOW YOUR DISTANCES AND PELLET ARC. Heavier .22 pellets will stay comparatively more accurate as you up the power due to the fact that the weight will keep the projectile more stable as you approach supersonic speeds. The closer you get to that the more the weight comes into play to keep it stable. The answer is, the discipline and power (and to an extend the conditions when shooting) dictate the calibre that you should use.
Yes of course that is an option. I was just suggesting the guys add another facet to the comparison. Without people having to deviate from the you tube experience.
@mandj102 victory pellets are cheep 10 pound a tin. They are alright out to 30 yards. Hades are one of the best 20 pound a Tim out at 60 yards I can get it into a 3 inch target
Good video, effort is appreciated but this is an exercise in futility given all the parameters and variables that go into this equation. I don’t think there is even an answer. Where the rubber meets the road is this, what are you using the rifle for and in your chosen caliber does it do that job consistently.
.25 for short range pigeons and rats. .177 for long range rabbits. .22 is the intermediate! Therefore .177 are best because they are cheaper - that's my disjointed logic!
What a bushit ending 177 wins hands down every time as plasment of the pellets will kill every time let's not forget pellets 177 have though about this to leave the heaviest idiots behind 😱
I know you just want to make fun and informative videos, but you know as well as anyone, that using the 'same pellets for both' immediately removed any validity this test may have had... There is no possible way two guns/barrels will ever shoot the same pellet equally accurately, even if they are the same make, calibre or any other variable one could mention... I have a Red Wolf, one of the best PCP's ever made, with the wrong pellet, it shoots worse than either of these... Do your due diligence guys..! You should have a stock pile of every pellet available by now, why not spend an hour or so pellet testing guns before asking people to believe or take ANYTHING useful from these group tests... Do better..
Well done lads. You have confirmed my decision to go 177
Here is the non airgunner guff, the actual science/ engineering:
You want to impart as close to 12FtLbs energy into a projectile as possible, there are 3 factors to the ballistic bell graph. Mass volume and resistance.
Example: A low mass, low volume pellet will require a lot more energy directly applied to it in the barrel because its hard to put a lot of anything into something "small". Additionally a smaller diameter bore with a small diameter pellet will have a higher friction coefficient than a slightly larger "small" diameter pellet as the ballistic bell curves show that as contact cross sections increase from small to slightly less small the friction per contact reduces to the top of the bell curve where to keep things simple; if you need an ultra higher power projectile for a workable energy input the charge size to cross section/mass reduces, BUT that again falls into a bell graph.
There is also the ballistic bell curve graphs for barrel length: energy in, bore diameter, mass of projectile, cross section of projectile and LENGTH OF BARREL (needed to be optimised for length of barrel to impart energy before the length of barrel friction to energy transfer ratio declines).
Here is the reality of airguns in the UK, they are power restricted, NOTHING else is restricted other than pistol/rifle lengths, so a half pound 0.5" cal slug is a non-starter!
.177 or .22 does not matter, the power restriction is the only factor. So check out honest reviews, pick a gun you like and can afford in the calibre of your choice. Test pellets for your chosen rifle that are accurate and powerful enough for your needs and crack on with it.
I have 2 JTS Airacuda Max rifles. One .22, the other .177, I weigh and grade all the pellets I use. Both guns can consistently hit a 6mm target at 25 yards (85%), both can consistently hit a 12mm target at 35 yards (80%). The guns use completely different pellets (Make/type/mass) and that took 2 years of testing pellets!
The only thing that I can add is. With the pellets and guns I use, I get a 3 to 2 shot ratio per charge. 3 x .22 total shots to 2 x .177 per cylinder charge (like I stated smaller takes more energy). Both guns are shrouded, been re-crowned and have silencers, the .177 makes slightly more of not much noise.
Excellent vid lads, interesting stuff, a pellet test in each rifle would made the accuracy a bit more conclusive with the group results, nevertheless on the " best calibre " question, there is NO DOUBT no doubt WHATSOEVER that . 20 is the best and most effective calibre for accuracy , and when I'm at the range with mine, ( weihrauch ) the amount of birds you can pull is unreal, there all over me... . 20 is a man's calibre, just like BRUT the aftershave and clean pair of "Y" front pants.. Ya just can't go wrong
Nice one 😂
The birds must like inbetweeners! - Must be a curiosity thing? 😅
I remember the same calibre argument going on in the early eighties,and probably went on long before that - and nothing’s changed really - it’s about knowing your set up and understanding it’s advantages and disadvantages.
Personally I like .177 with a medium weight pellet because the flatter trajectory is a real benefit with range judging being so critical.
I'm a target shooter but have recently been researching lead-free pellets for a family member who has a pest-control task in an environment which must remain lead-free. None are as accurate as lead pellets but my .177" AA TX200 does a very acceptable job with H&N Match Green pellets. The usual ammunition (JSB Exact 8.4 grain) chronos at 10.5 ft-lb but the lightweight (5.25 grain) H&Ns chrono at 11.1 ft-lb and have an impact point 35mm higher at 25 yards. Muzzle velocity is 970 ft/sec. Now *that's* a flat trajectory.
You are the only UA-cam channel I trust. Greetings from Germany
Yay, well past the 17 mins of a normal podcast. Be interesting to repeat this test using a springer in both cals
The Maths shows your retained power to be correct, this is how much energy each pellet will keep at 50 yards assuming you believe in Energy = 1/2 MV squared.
Typical Ballistic Coefficients:
.177 pellet (7.9 grains): BC ≈ 0.012 - 0.020
.22 pellet (14.3 grains): BC ≈ 0.025 - 0.035
Energy at 50 Yards:
Using typical BC values and online ballistic calculators for airguns, we can estimate the remaining energy at 50 yards.
.177 Pellet (7.9 grains, BC 0.012):
Starting Energy: 11 ft-lbs
Energy at 50 Yards: ~4.5 - 5.0 ft-lbs
.22 Pellet (14.3 grains, BC 0.030):
Starting Energy: 11 ft-lbs
Energy at 50 Yards: ~6.5 - 7.0 ft-lbs
Conclusion:
The .22 pellet retains more energy (about 6.5-7 ft-lbs) at 50 yards compared to the .177 pellet (about 4.5-5 ft-lbs) due to its higher ballistic coefficient and heavier mass.
THANK GOD someone actually knows what there talking about 👍👍🍻
Thanks for taking the time and your conclusions are appreciated, keep up the good work
I have been an air rifle fan for about 50 years. Back in the early 70s it was all 22, it's bigger so it must be better. I fell into that trap. Brand new BSA mercury in 74. I still own it now, it's crap and with hindsight it always was. Then in 78 I bought a new hw 35. The quality was amazing, but still a 22. Next a feinworkbau in 177. I've only owned 177 since! The accuracy at range is so easy to judge compared to the lumbering 22! I still shoot today ( s 400) sub 12. Nowerdays I find 9. 57 grains to be the perfect weight for me. 177 is the best calibre!!
Great video, chaps. Long video but kept me watching until the end. Same gun, same pellet, different calibres. Entertaining comparison (although BSA or H&N pellets seem to suit BSA barrels better in my experience). I'm just a target shooter and would select .22" for outdoor and .177" for indoor competition (but that's just me: your mileage may vary).
Interesting to hear comments re mil-dots and hold-over. Perhaps scopes are a subject for a future video? Calculating hold-over for a particular scope is a great subject for mental arithmetic: suiting engineers, darts-players and FT shooters perhaps? Over the years I have acquired a collection of scopes in milli-radians and minutes of angle, in first and second focal plane. My current favourite is the Hawke Sidewinder (no affiliation) with the second focal plane SR Pro II reticle. Set the zoom for your particular gun and ammunition and you get hold-over points without the maths. 😀
That was a great video guys, I really enjoyed it. Thank you both.
So in this test, the 177 shoots tighter groups at all ranges. It obviously is always going to drop less at all ranges. That makes one answer clear the 177 is a more accurate gun.(yes pellet choice will make a difference but good pellets tend to vary less and the groups suggest they suit the guns ok) ). When it comes pellet drop both pellets drop at the almost the same speed, accelerating downwards at 9.8m/s2 with air resistance in drop having minor affect. Air resistance or drag coefficient will affect the faster pellet more so it sheds energy more in flight. The only reason I can see for choosing a 22 over a 177 is if you wish to impart more energy on target. As mentioned in the video penetration will vary with size so needs to be taken into account.
Great vid...I normally use my Bar gun for target and p.control.at 20yards.i rarely miss
Great Video Guys
great review guys love the competivness i was great to meet you peter on wednesday
Legends 👍
Another great wee video..brilliant
Seeing this comparison using springer air rifles would also be useful.
Good video lads
Interesting as always guys. I like my Reximex mito .22 I got from you guys 2 weeks back.
Sorry I pressed send before finishing. I was going to add I prefer the 22 pellets in a target pistol to 177. Will be an interesting test on Saturday at the range, to see drop off at different distances with this pistol. At 50 yards the computer says no!
One thing I took from this is that these guns would be incredible if the UK didn't have such a silly low max ft pounds. Even 15-20 would allow these to be super accurate to 40
I watched the whole thing...
Lighter projectiles lose velocity faster (VxM-drag), which is why the .22 started to catch up with the .177 at 60 yards (no longer double the drop). However, since most people won't be shooting out to that distance with an air rifle like that, the reduced BDC of the .177 makes it easier to shoot, plus the groups were a little nicer with that brand of pellet. 👍
I'm a big fan of either single magnification scopes or single focal plane zooms if you just have to go there. Double focal plane zooms with BDC reticles are a bit stupid, since it makes the BDC part of the reticle meaningless.
My spotting scope is a cheap Chinese 300x compact telescope with 1/4" tripod mount ($25). Is it great? Well no, but it is great for the price and I can see what's happening out to 100 meters no problems, and it's tiny enough to keep in my range bag permanently. It's a case of "best" is the one you have in your hand.
Enjoyed the video guy's, why don't you use a chrono down range to get the ft/lbs power at the target?, poss future vid?
Very interesting information, I am in US so not sure those results would be the same with hi power .22 vs .177. I personally have a few of each caliber, I find the .177 a pain to handle and or load especially in a spring gun, however for shooting in my basement range the .177 are safer, not as much power, but in my outdoor range I much prefer the higher calibers. Either way I agree with you guys there is no clear cut better caliber, depending entirely on situation. Always enjoy your videos. Thanks.
Great video! Love those target holders you have on the outdoor range. Would you be willing to make and sell them?
Comparing equal weight pellets would be interesting as the 22 seemed better at distance in dealing with wind. A 177 pellet has a smaller profile so should catch the wind less. In theory a heavy 177 should be best in a wind but may drop even more than a 22 of equal weight.
177 for me hw97kt as well brilliant gun in silver and synthetic stock
This one’s in too too!😊
I would have originally said that sub 12 is 177 for pellet speed and fac .22 and above.
BUT..
Some ratters like .25 in sub 12 for short shots.
So it's really a case of what you want the gun for.
I now say any sub 12 for ratting. 177 for longer shots and .22 and above for FAC
But obviously there is going to be a different reply to me and it's welcome because it's all down to your own choice
Try a review of same rifles using him micro Alpex lrf, setting up the ballistic calculator..
I think they are right. No clear winner. I shoot BSAUltra CLX in my garden up to 50m. Choose a lighter Pellet (one I'm using is BSA goldstar) and there's less drop on the ,.22 than shown here. If you know the range (I use a golf range finder) amrita at 50m the .22 goes good groups around the bull (with hold over) and the .177 is more spread out. Come down to 20-30m and the ,177 benefits from not much variation in drop. There's no straightforward answer to this. I like them both and use each one under different conditions.
Super carbine and carbine so does the barrel length have any difference I’d say 177 all day long but my stage 2 tuned fire fly is a 22 and is just wow.
This argument has been going on for Years 🤔
I'm convinced .22 caliber pellets are better quality on average than .177 because of their size. Meaning the smaller the size the harder it is to manufacture accurately.
Prefer you used a zero eye relief scope to discount parallax error 😊
This old chestnut eh? Always a good for a bit of content lol. Here's the answer , they are just as accurate as eachother provided you know your pellet weight and arc.
At lower powers the .177 has a flatter trajectory so if you're doing some target work (especially with lower powered target orientated pistols) then .177 is for you.
But as previously stated that's at lower power levels, for hunting(especially with fac rifles) the .22 will be more accurate and hold more power at target PROVIDED YOU KNOW YOUR DISTANCES AND PELLET ARC. Heavier .22 pellets will stay comparatively more accurate as you up the power due to the fact that the weight will keep the projectile more stable as you approach supersonic speeds. The closer you get to that the more the weight comes into play to keep it stable.
The answer is, the discipline and power (and to an extend the conditions when shooting) dictate the calibre that you should use.
What about average price for a tin of 500. Or price for the AA you were using.
Just look on the net mate 😂
Yes of course that is an option. I was just suggesting the guys add another facet to the comparison. Without people having to deviate from the you tube experience.
@mandj102 victory pellets are cheep 10 pound a tin. They are alright out to 30 yards. Hades are one of the best 20 pound a Tim out at 60 yards I can get it into a 3 inch target
Good video, effort is appreciated but this is an exercise in futility given all the parameters and variables that go into this equation. I don’t think there is even an answer. Where the rubber meets the road is this, what are you using the rifle for and in your chosen caliber does it do that job consistently.
To quote Homer...DOH!!!!! 😂😂😂Good test lads👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍😎😎😎😎😎
Be intereting if you put a .25cal in the mix.
Now do the same test OUTSIDE ON A WINDY DAY
Never seen anyone take so long to shoot
Offhand close range ratting or fixed range squirrel.22 is best.
Anything else.177 is best
Accuracy not up to much at that range though is it.
As was mentioned twice during the video, it was not about accuracy, so guns not set up for it. Did you watch the video??.
Did they both leak
That’s what she said.
En precisión el 177 es muy superior al22. De echo que calibre se usa en precisión el 177 por algo sera.
.25 for short range pigeons and rats.
.177 for long range rabbits. .22 is the intermediate!
Therefore .177 are best because they are cheaper - that's my disjointed logic!
.25
…all about smac?!
What a bushit ending 177 wins hands down every time as plasment of the pellets will kill every time let's not forget pellets 177 have though about this to leave the heaviest idiots behind 😱
A 😘💕👍👍
BSA should of stuck to making Cycles.
Total waste of time, as soon as you introduce human error your results are meaningless.
Bored, turned off after ten minutes. This is just pellet testing 🤷🏻
I know you just want to make fun and informative videos, but you know as well as anyone, that using the 'same pellets for both' immediately removed any validity this test may have had... There is no possible way two guns/barrels will ever shoot the same pellet equally accurately, even if they are the same make, calibre or any other variable one could mention... I have a Red Wolf, one of the best PCP's ever made, with the wrong pellet, it shoots worse than either of these... Do your due diligence guys..! You should have a stock pile of every pellet available by now, why not spend an hour or so pellet testing guns before asking people to believe or take ANYTHING useful from these group tests... Do better..