Sup guys. Just wanted to add that a lot of people also pointed out that Modern is very useful for accessibility reasons, and has helped many disabled gamers play the game, which is obviously another big positive case for it.
Due to cancer, I've had many surgeries, to the point where its affected my hands and my dexterity with them. Modern controls has allowed me to enjoy a character outside a Charged based toons, for the first time in 15 years. If anything, Modern controls let me enjoy a fighting game like I used too when I was standing in a Arcade back in the day.
@@WormyJester8 Its an old term, cartoons got turned into toons, which implies a character picked. "oh I like this toon, I'll play him" I'm old af ok? lol
@@Tinytraveler I have played SF for a long time, been a member of srk forums when that was a thing and I never heard people in the FGC call characters "toons", that's why I was asking
The best thing about b0bbybasketball1999 is that he used a 0 instead of an o which implies bobbybasketball1999 already existed before Broski made the joke.
_b0bbybasketball1999 on his death bed_ "Shh, quiet everyone. Dad is asking me to lean over to hear his last words." "..." "Well, what did he say?" "He said, 'worth it.'"
Without modern, 2 of my friends would never get into this game and we would never have the most fun we had in street fighter 6. And they are still playing and one of them switched to Classic.
To add on to your point about Modern giving you bad habits: I've found that lot of modern players in ranked easily take the bait from a fakeout jump/safejump because they're so used to being able to anti-air on reaction with one button. I've won a lot of matches by faking them out with a shallow divekick, a safejump, or a hooligan cancel (I play Cammy) and basically killing them for whiffing an anti-air. It's great that more people get to play the game with it, but I def see what you mean with that last point/
People asking for a Modern filter don't realize that the rage quitter filter is already doing that job... Most Modern players I encounter rage quit once their gimmicks get figured out. It happens like, 7 out of 10 times, really... Like, dude, Cammy's auto-light is not a real blockstring... stop mashing it to fish for confirms. You're just getting blown up over and over again...
@@LuigiG145 Conditioning is really effective against modern IMO speaking as a competitive modern player myself. Whether it’s baiting with a fake jump or doing everything BUT drive impact so when it finally comes I’m not even ready to one-button react, it’s an effective way to shut autopilot shenanigans down.
I think a big factor with Modern controls that is often forgotten is having way less attacking buttons. Having 6 simultanious buttons to attack always was a huge hurdle in SF for beginners because in practically all other action games (that are not fighting games) you have one or two, at most three. Having six is a crazy concept for non-FGC people. Of course once you have experience, you'll learn their purpose and also the "best" buttons for each character (and which to mostly avoid), but new players don't have that vocabulary. It's a foreign language for them. Breaking it down to three makes it WAY more palpable. Funnily enough with all the extra buttons that are needed for Modern you'll end up with 7 needed buttons in the end instead of only 6 in classic. But if course, four of them have special functions with a clear purpose even for beginners.
In my opinion, you could honestly throw out some of those special buttons because they are basically pressing two buttons at once. I'm also not the biggest fan of auto combo and never really use it because it is more interesting to me to figure out combos myself, but that's all personal preference I guess. That way you could shrink down the pool to 4 buttons, or maybe 4 plus two shoulder buttons for DI and DP which makes more intuitive sense. The one thing I often see argued is that the 6 classic buttons have purpose, but no one explains what purpose they really have. Why is it such a problem to, for instance, put Heavy Kick and Heavy Punch on the same button? I'm mainly asking that because a 6 button layout does not really work on gamepads, which many more people have access to than fight sticks.
I wish modern at least made you have to do one quarter circle for super. Because your opponent holding back then getting a instant super on defense is easily the worst thing about playing against modern
I really dont care about the strength of modern controls. Its the playstyles associated with them. I just never play against a modern player and think "damn this was a fun game". Its ALWAYS "damn im whooping this guys ass, and now all hes gonna do is turtle up and look for instant reactions" Every modern player diamond 3 and onwards is just playing the lamest they can. 0 respect
That's pretty in line with what Capcom wanted it to be actually. I very much recall when the game was about to release, Nakayama was always saying that he wanted to see dedicated modern players at all levels of play, so I think it's safe to say he succeeded.
pro players has to KNOW that they are playing against a 1-button-super and make decisions over it. You cant try to surprise Modern Character with an EX move for faster it looks. But you can play knowing M-Guy is waiting for 1-button-super back to you. Its a different mind game.
100% good takes here. The most interesting criticism I’ve heard about Modern is how it formatively limits ALL characters to having a maximum of two charge moves only.
Having to adapt to play against certain characters- fair enough, seeing modern and having to adapt to one button specials and supers is extremely frustrating
SF6 is the first fighting game I've gotten into. Honestly, I really hate playing against modern players. What you said about "anti-hype" is exactly it. Seeing a classic player counter something with a raw super is a crazy moment. Seeing the same from someone that just has to press 2 buttons feels cheap instead.
Something to maybe bridge the gap could be adding a tiny bit of extra startup to stuff like Supers to help it match the slight bit of time it would take to input the move on classic. Sort of like how Digital input controllers in Smash have artificial travel time to balance out not using a stick for movement.
@@OkairMcLaren 20 percent less damage isn’t a deterrent to play classic. IMO it should be 33% rounded down. Artificial frame delay would make it more balanced if they don’t go the 33% route. I feel one or the other is good for balance.
modern feels bad to lose to and win against. IDK how that could possibly be fixed so leave it as is i guess? If it makes lesser skilled people happy and gives people with disabilities a way to play its a positive in some way, but I cant help but wish there was a separate queue for modern.
Right now a modern player in top 8 is pretty rare. I just hope the meta stays this way. Modern can kind of remove beautiful parts of SF legacy language.
I will say, I watched a bit of the AT&T thing when they had sf6 on there, and it was even worse than previous iterations. A big difference between it and CR is that the people on there actually wanted to learn and do well by their team. I wish there were more in-game tools to learn motion inputs. The one concession to that is that one pizza minigame in the story mode, and that doesn't really give tips, explain timings or how to use your movement as part of the input etc. There are definitely new players who want to give Classic a go but lack direction.
You have all the tools need to learn motion inputs. Issue is that people that want to learn or think they need to master everything before they even think about playing.
@@sorubro2193 they absolutely should if they want to get better because that would mean there is no reason to use classic and everyone should be playing classic.
Honestly all that Chun Li example demonstrated to me is that Modern enables _new_ versions of those play styles rather than introducing them in the first place Like the Ryus that just do junp heavy kick into sweep over and over and over that *will* get them wins until they meet someone that can anti-air, which might never happen. Or generally people who do the riskiest option at every single chance in hopes the opponent doesn't know how to deal with it, and those players do in fact make it to the top rank of games Frankly the only difference I can tell is that that Chun playstyle is much safer and looks a bit closer to how one might actually play the game, fireballs and anti airs Just seems pretty normal
I had the same thought. I’m not sure that Modern enables more that type of playstyle referenced with Chun. In fact, when it’s easier to do more inputs, like in Modern, you definitely see more special moves.
Those new means of playing are nice, but against the opponent its rather linear because it skews the options that you can force onto chun in this example.
if you cant beat the modern players who anti air and super you, you also cant beat the higher rated players who will do the same thing on classic. I'm diamond 2 rn with classic akuma and like 90% of the reason I win most of my games is because I anti air people who do nothing but jump
The largest problem with Modern is that it's a band-aid. Imagine if this game wasn't designed with Drive Rush in mind, then at the last minute, someone added it. That's what Modern feels like. To get Modern to "work" all specials that come from it needed a hefty 1/5 damage reduction, and such a solution doesn't work for everything. It's why Zangief's level 1 eats 2/5 scaling in Modern. Modern works best in a game designed from the floor up for it, where it's meant to be a Groove type setting, or is even the only way to play. It doesnt work as an accessibility option for a game genre with a high barrier of entry trying to entice more sales. A fighting game from the ground up that is designed to have easy controls and high-level gameplay that players can instantly hop into without spending hours labbing up combos and getting their execution right would work. Some studio of EX fighting game devs tried it with a game on PC that never left Beta. It was crazy fun, and it let everyone enjoy fighting games at a higher level. But the game NEEDS to be designed from the ground up with this intent. Whoever gets that product right will likely take FGs by storm.
The only problem with Modern I've had is people in very low ranks don't have the execution wall that Classic people have. Their combos also continue to work in bad lag whereas Classic players kinda get left out to dry. Both of these are kinda minor issues but it's likely a lot of the salt for it revolves around these points.
SF6 was my first ever fighting game and i went with classic becasue i just thought it was more fun. My problem with modern was that as i was spending time learning inputs and combos i found it very frustrating that when i went into a match id mostly play agaisnt modern players and while i was often dropping combos or messing up dps for antiairs the modern players had perfect antiairs easily and the autocombos made everything they did so consistent even though i could tell they were as new to the game as i was. I found it kind of disheartening that i was putting so much time and effort into learning the game while modern was making everything so easy for my opponents. Now that im better at the game i dont have a problem with modern anymore but i do think it really sucks to be a fully new player going classic vs modern and thats where alot of the hate comes from in stuff like twitch chats.
Considering how linear this game feels sometimes due to DR (many optimal combo routes feel samey for a lot of characters, DR/Fireball, etc...) I don't mind modern changing playstyles/matchups. It sorta feels like a "Groove" or "ISM" system where you have to face opponents/characters differently depending on what options they have/lack based on their controller scheme.
Sf 6 is my first sf game aki was what drew my attention being such a unique character but I didn't even know modern controls was a thing but it really helps to learn the basics of the character but I now use classic controls 😊
All controls schemes at the end of the day should melt away and become basically an extension to your fingers so you don't have to think about it, this is true for shooter, action rpgs and should be same for fgs. My friends have been playing fgs for around 5 years (and are very experienced with motions) and I am pretty fucking new, modern controls let me play with them semi competently (more so cause i come from smash melee).
I've been playing since SF4. I played SF5 religiously from release until it ended. I've played all the classic Street Fighter games and dabbled in nearly every other fighting game franchise. I decided to only play Modern in SF6 for something new and it's really fun.
eh, I think modern is good, BUT the could've done a better job with balancing it... instead of decreasing damage, which is stupid, they should've simply added start-up frames for modern controls (or even better, have the character automatically do the input motion), to offset the fact that you don't have execution time... that would basically solve the "frame 1 one button super" issue, plus many others, and it would force new players to think about what they're doing while also being able to just press one button. That's like the basic change I'd make to modern... personally I'd go further than that, but that one change I think would basically even the playfield and you could get rid of the damage decrease too.
Tbf on the last point, i feel like that would apply to almost any character, modern or not. SF6 is my first fighting game, and a few months in, i tried Lily for the first time, and that's when i learned i had a "spam wake up OD reversal" habit which i unlearned with Lily because she doesnt have that option. So the flavor of bad habit might be unique to modern, the development of bad habits is not unique.
As you pointed out, it isn't particularly strong, but being immune to stun, and not having to buffer during block strings is so useful in this game that it can net advantages for the player. sf6 is my first fighting game and I chose classic because for me the whole point of playing fighting games is to learn how they work and how to control your character properly. That's where the fun comes from; learning and executing. Yesterday you couldn't do it but today you can, and tomorrow you will learn a new punish, a new frame trap, something that will keep learning and trying. I don't see the point in taking the easy road. All the satisfaction comes from the struggle of losing, learning, and overcoming.
As someone whose first "serious" Sf was 6 and who is a modern player, I found your take on the control scheme very nuanced. I will definitely think about how I approach the game--especially if I'm playing Chun.
its definitely a welcome change but yeah the easy-reaction dp or supers maybe need to be accounted for in some way when its modern vs classic matchup. Definitely a net positive feature I'd say
It's a tough case because I can honestly see both sides of it. It's really helpful for newer players of course, that's what it's there for and very helpful for physically challenged players, which is really important and nice to have. But on the other hand I remember everyone in the community rightfully getting mad at that SF4 "Mike Ross V Cheater" video where the cheater was doing some stuff that you can kind of do in SF6 with modern controls if your reactions are on point. The counterplay is there obviously but I can understand people's frustrations fighting Modern users in high Diamond/Master who clearly know what they're doing and would rather curb their lack of reactions with a faster input.
@@Puntersnatchcan't really baited if delay dp still win vs most jump and crosscut(seriously tho zangief air or jump in basically dead can only do ground things that is not overhead) cause jump just gonna get aa and overhead is slow that modern can easily anti air it or better yet DI
@tilting_cat3344 baiting is not just jumping in and eating the dp lol. You have to be able to get close enough they dp but far enough they miss. Usually dive kicks. As a tip don't jump into gief modern or classic. You can jump over him as a cross up where lariat sucks behind him. But he's got a lot of moves to stop jumping in to him. Train forward jumping if you're trying to avoid spds. Also modern players have a mental stack too. Do enough on the ground and you can get the occasional jump in too. They aren't gods.
@Puntersnatch This depends on the character's kit - Juri dp won't lose to that as her dp is the best in the game in my opinion. If the juri player is decent, you'll never be able to jump freely. Some characters are just built better in some regards.
I like how GBVS does modern the most personally. It's just baked into regular play. Perfect scenario: modern just /is/ the way to play so as not to discredit talented players, but still with incentives like extra damage for inputting specials and no 1-button supers. QCF+PP raises the floor just enough that modern players gotta learn the most common motion to access their most powerful moves, and opens the door for later doing motions in combos for damage.
I'm someone who, apart from some excursions into basically unknown fighting games on the PS1, never played or really interacted with the genre at all. At best I could name *some* of the characters in SF and that's it. One of the main reasons was the learning cliff and the general impression that you get stomped hard by players that have been playing those games for many years, decades even at times. Street Fighter 6 did two things to draw me in: The World Tour which gives me a mode that feels like many games I played before while also introducing me to the toolkit you can expect; and the modern control scheme. It shouldn't be a surprise that I only have a controller and no fight stick (I wonder how expensive these are), so a 6 button layout doesn't even properly work...and I tried for a small bit because there is actually a quest in the World Tour that makes you win a fight in both control schemes. Now, neither is perfect, at least from my limited point of view: Both can lead to bad habits and I noticed that already. To combat this, I started practicing both the fast input (direction+special) and the "complicated" input that is closer to classic, to get a better feel for things - plus appearantly if you execute the longer input, your moves get the appropriate damage output which is a bonus. I have yet to play against players because the anxiety is strong with me (and being alone in the whole thing doesn't help, but that's a different issue), but I spend time practicing things, working on combo trials and whatnot to figure out which character suits me best. One thing I wonder though: If Modern is mainly a tool for beginners, how are you supposed to make the switch to Classic if so desired? And as a side question: What makes modern AKI so bad? I genuinely don't know and she's a very interesting character that I might want to try, but due to above only really have access to Modern.
I also like that in order to play modern characters to full potential you still need to learn the proper inputs for a lot of their moves because modern only gives you 1 of the normal versions and EX (not to mention some moves it doesn’t cover at all). For example modern Luke is a popular character. Simple character, good for beginners, very strong with modern because of his level 1. You can get pretty far with only medium fireball and medium flash knuckle but eventually you will want to learn how to do a fullscreen meterless fireball and a low recovery one for poking, as well as his most damaging combos that require light and heavy knuckle or his charged heavy knuckle into level 3 DI trap for free plus frames. Modern Chun is also popular and her stance just doesn’t have a modern input, not to mention that modern only provides moderate assistance with charge moves (all it does is remove the need to press forward after charging. You can just press punch once you have enough back charge for a fireball for example). Even modern Gief players are going to want to learn to do light SPD since that is arguably the most powerful one because of its insane range. I think it introduces people to traditional fighting game inputs in a less frustrating and overwhelming way and people don’t give it enough credit for that, some people don’t even realize that high level modern players are doing motions at all (part of it is because they called it modern, which sounds like it is trying to replace motion specials, rather than make them something a player can learn to level up their game after they have enjoyed the game for a while rather than a basic requirement to play at all).
I'm alright with it if it gets people to play outside of house parties and stuff, same reason I'm hesitantly glad the new fatal fury is getting the smart style (though I do think gatekeeping certain maneuvers or moves is a good idea to get people to actually learn the game)
The section about playstyles makes sense, but to a certain degree I think it also applies to some Classic players, where they're trying to find a strat that makes them climb fast (throw unsafe pokes, mash super/drive reversal/DI on wakeup, press buttons on full screen) and then they get frustrated when it stops working or get hardstuck in Diamond. If anything I suspect part of the Modern hatred comes from those type of players, although I agree the worst part of Modern is the fact it stops the game to a crawl just to bait supers, DPs and DIs. With regards to the streamer events, I saw a bit of the AT&T one and not only the SF portion was agonizing, the rest of the games were too since no one gave enough of a shit to learn aside from 4 people. Same applies for the OTK one, although not even the players were invested enough and just picked Zangief/Honda.
That and Tekken is more easy for a casual - you can actually mash and get stuff, so having a coach teach you what you need to mash to do cool stuff helps a lot. Point kinda proven with Dokibird and Coney (on the first slam): they used only a bit of King's stuff and still get to do cool sequences and get hype on their first Tekken tournament. Having friends/friendly environment does wonders.
It's because Tekken basically uses modern controls, which makes learning everything easier. The reason it works is very much the same reasons why Modern works.
I appreciate this video. I will say, as a low level, newish to fighting games player, modern makes low ranked matches suck. The amount of times I'd get a win streak going in silver only to get it ended by a modern player was pretty frustrating. There are a lot more classic players down here, but the modern players are pretty brutal to fight against when they appear. Largely because they have an easier time performing punish combos because of auto combos. Most people down here, when you make a mistake, only take off like an eighth of your bar, but modern will take off a quarter to a third. They aren't unbeatable, but fighting modern requires an extreme amount of focus. I'm curious how modern will compare with classic players now that I've hit gold. I'm expecting them to start feeling similar now that I'm getting to the point where classic combos are more normal to see
If they just took out or reduced the damage penalty and made the modern inputs macros that included the motion input delay i think it'd fix a lot of the issues.
I'm very impressed with how modern is designed overall. If other fighting games just stole the idea wholesale and tailored it to their specific system mechanics, I think that would be a good thing if it's executed as well as Capcom's was. It looks like SNK is already on it with City of Wolves, knowing their relationship with Capcom I wouldn't be surprised if Nakayama directly suggested it to Oda.
You hit all the main points. My one requested change is i do not feel Modern should get to choose to do full motions for full damage at their discretion. That benefit doesnt help people that want basic inputs, doesnt help the streamers needing quicker and easier onboarding, nor does it help people with physical accessibility issues. It mainly just helps more intermediate to advanced players optimize better. I'm fine with a motion still working in Modern if someone wants to experiment, but not to avoid the damage reduction. If someone plays Modern, it should be a full commitment to both the pros and cons, and this change wouldnt gatekeep anyone that actually needs Modern either. I cant think of any reason for capcom to have made Modern allowing full damage motion as they did unless it was hoping that older players would consider adopting Modern, with long term plans for the company to make a future spinoff or mainline title that goes Modern only.
I think you’re missing the main benefit: it allows modern players to learn classic without being thrown back to square one. If you look at the distribution of modern players, you see that it’s much higher at low ranks. The possible explanations for this (that I can think of are 1. Modern isn’t viable at high levels (this is obviously not the case) 2. Modern players get bored and stop playing before they get to higher ranks (this definitely happens, but isn’t enough to explain the disparity imo) and 3. Modern players transition to classic as they learn the game (I’m willing to bet this is the main reason). The only reason so many people switch from modern to classic is that you are encouraged to learn motion inputs in modern. If they took away motion controls, you’d have a lot of players stick with modern forever, and I’m willing to bet people would be even more mad about it. Also without full damage on half your specials modern would be significantly worse, when as it is it’s very well balanced Edit: The only thing I would change is that you should get the 80% scaling on specials when you do them in an auto combo
@Kazaam1996 yeah but they can still learn the classic motions under modern. I'm not saying to take those away. I'm saying they don't get the damage benefit. If it's truly to learn, then the damage shouldn't matter. If the incentive of damage is necessary for them to learn in the short term, then they can join classic and learn in real time. The majority of modern players are using it because they like using the simpler controls and they stick to them. If a person is already to the point of comfort of mixing in Classic inputs for damage purposes to optimize, then they are obviously at least capable of the motion execution so they can use full classic mode at any time to get the damage. Having this hybrid scenario just serves to benefit Modern users that already have the execution for classic. As far as your point about it potentially enticing Modern users to stick to Modern forever, I'm completely fine with that because that is what the majority of Modern players do anyway. Modern is here to stay and it isn't being seen as some transitional stepping stone to Classic. It's seen as an alternative permanent control method. I'm also not sure where your balance argument comes from in that last part of the comment. I'm only saying that specials and supers under Modern should always get the damage reduction regardless of how they are input. That doesn't change the current balance at all except for the execution-skilled players using full motions to optimize, and those skilled players are the ones that I don't feel Modern shouldn't cater to. I want Modern to be there for simplicity and accessibility, not for an execution-skilled player to pick and choose all for the trade of losing a few normals and special variants.
@@misterkeebler You say that the majority of modern players stay modern… what makes you think that? From everything I’ve seen, new players who pick up modern end up transitioning to classic. I guess I don’t have lots of hard evidence because I’m basing this on my own experience (as well as my friends) but I’m guessing neither do you so I guess we can both believe what we want. Also, I think it’s ridiculous to say that decreasing the damage on motion specials doesn’t change the balance. Even without forcing less damage, modern is still an overall weaker control scheme. If you did force less damage, it would be significantly weaker. If it is an “alternative, permanent control scheme” like you say, then it makes absolutely zero sense to severely handicap modern that way. According to you, either modern is it’s own control scheme that people need to stick with forever (I don’t think that makes much sense) or modern should only cater to low skill players and shouldn’t be considered by “execution-skilled players” (this is less ridiculous, but completely contradicts your earlier point that it’s a viable alternative control scheme). You cannot have both, because as new players learn how to play, they become more skilled. That’s how the game works (source: was a new player once)
@Kazaam1996 we can agree to disagree but I'm more speaking in context that many people praise Modern as a way to get newer players into street fighter because it removes the execution barrier. That aspect is something I like and appreciate. Having one button specials does make some conventional situations like anti airing carry less risk than traditional controls, and it really shifts the balance with burnout and drive impact, but I accept those tradeoffs for giving newer players or ones that need access some help. I'm just against having it mixed with full motion specials with standard damage because if you can actually do the motions, then I prefer a person not have the ability to pick and choose based on the situation. If you want this, then that's fine. But at that point it's not arguing that Modern is for accessibility. Access was achieved before that. Having the ability to do motions in Modern for full damage does not really incentivize people to eventually move to Classic. All that is left for Classic at that point is just some additional normals and special variants. The incentive to move would be higher if they were required to go Classic to get the damage. Without that aspect, then it becomes a matter of what did the Modern version of a character lose. Basically, if a person sees Modern as some form of -ism or Groove type of scenario, then they probably like things as it is, though I'd argue that's not an accessibility convo anymore. Me personally, I like seeing Modern for accessibility and dislike seeing it as a Groove or Ism because of how it slows down the pace of a match in ways that are not interesting to watch or play against at higher levels.
I think the only issue for modern is that contrary to Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising or 2XKO in the future, where the main control scheme is simple input and with no drawback so it is how you should play the game... SF6 is still designed for classic controls so the devs have to create arbitrary drawback to make modern not as 'good' but theses drawbacks can't be too much or it would fuck people who legitimately like playing as modern/can play only thanks to it. And so the advantage of no motion input become quite oppressive.
After we've played with it for a while, I almost wish they completely ripped off the bandaid and just designed the game for modern controls. It's always going to be an unpopular move for veterans but you can't get these games bigger without lowering the skill floor.
Granblue did it better. Full access to specials, without sacrificing almost anything. No bull and boring autocombos. It just bridges the gap, without separating the crowd. It would have been so much better if SF 'copied the homework'!
I'm actually really glad it has drawbacks, it gives people an incentive to learn inputs, inputs are not the central skill curve of fighting games, they are not everything, but they should exist and be the standard.
@@TheOblomoffI do not agree, granblues easy inputs are just strictly better, and that's kinda boring. If there was an incentive to do inputs anyway, that would be better
I hate modern. ... No, not for people using it competitively, that's perfectly fine. I hate modern because its existence is the reason why you're not allowed to map specials with the same motion in world tour. Yes, the casual mode is the reason I despise it.
You have to approach modern players as if they are playing different characters - like fighting the EX or Orochi version of a KOF character. Similar in many ways, but requires some significant change in counterplay.
I heavily agree that modern really changes the risk reward and playstyle of the player themselves and the opponent. The mind game of jump timings is very different cause you just dont jump on them or are only trying to bait the anti air with neutrral jump or something, and all your points about burnout as well. I hadn't really considered the spectator part a ton but its 100% true unless you're a really uninformed player.
I'm all for Modern, I hate fighting it. It is a good thing, bu t it's madly frustrating when I get an input out in decent time, and they get to push a button and win. It's good for the game, but it frustrates me. So many people us it for cheap easy wins, and I hate it.
I think the biggest argument about modern is the instant invincible reversals and supers which I totally agree about and think they should have a 4 frame delay or something. But there are restrictions on pretty much everything else for new players. We still need to learn: When to Block How to play with a character that’s missing some moves like a sweep or overhead How to approach How to defend How to drive rush How to use drive impact How to counter EVERY characters annoying move Game knowledge for EVERY character Rps All of which feels like the actual parts of the game that people play street fighter for. so while it is a crutch that gives you a leg up, it’s not a “solve all problems” button
I find modern annoying in the moment and then I just often realize, its on me for losing no matter what. If it was a gimmick or good gameplay classic or modern my fault. I think its whatever and I dont think modern has hurt the game and has helped it, if anything it has helped get people who whine about everything out.
My problem with this is "my fault" does not equal "credit to my opponent". For all you know, they might never AA you without Modern, and the whole match plays differently. Even the reduced mental stack is tremendous and helps every facet of your game, when you know reactions with specials/supers are handled.
If they didn’t beat you with a punish like a frame 1 super or special, still on the same boat as op it was my fault I lost. Modern loses access to plenty of normals and a few specials on most characters, plus they can only do one type of special. So they are playing a handicapped character with the only plus being better reactions from smaller mental stack and faster input. But outside of that everything else in combo or normals they use in neutral are things a classic player can do and if I lose to that it’s not different than losing to classic, on top of me knowing they did that with less damage and worse normals/specials with likely worse frame data cause it is only one version of special or an in in unoptimal normal cause they don’t have access to the optimal one.
@@victorbesson78 Why do they have to beat you with it in order for it to matter? This game can be so snowbally, that winning the 1st interaction can carry you to corner, eating oki and you never recover. Only a few touches to kill. I think everyone agrees it is in some way our own fault when we lose (since we never play perfectly) and also that Modern has some downsides. Those 2 things are not being debated and I don't know why people keep bringing it back to this topic whenever other aspects of Modern is being criticized. It's like the safe space of Modern defenders.
@@libertyprime9307 bro "Those 2 things are not being debated and I don't know why people keep bringing it back to this topic whenever other aspects of Modern is being criticized. It's like the safe space of Modern defenders." If the upsides are criticized what do you expect the response to be? Its the downsides and it has more than the upsides. Also the last remark is the opposite of getting your point across it is basically trying to not have a discussion. Also I have seen your 10 other replies on other comments and if we both want a petty ending to our responses I find it funny you are the only one to like your own comment.
@@libertyprime9307Whether it is "Easier to anti air" or "Easier to do stuff on reaction" it is, no matter what, my fault as the player for losing. Thats the reality of fighting gamss, my opponent can be MenaRD and its still on me for losing. I didnt adapt, I didnt properly punish etc. Claiming they have an "Easier out" doesnt make you better, it just makes you whiner. Your losses are always YOUR fault.
This is my first time playing a street fighter game, I only bought it because of modern. I can't do double quarter circles in combos consistently, especially when its something like doing deejay's sobat into his level three. I've been told before "you could just practice and get the muscle memory" but why would I spend hours practicing this one thing when I could use those hours practicing something else. I'd much rather spend that time on a control scheme I can actually use and expand my knowledge from there. Work smarter not harder. I could've played the game without supers until I was able to do them, but even then the six button layout doesn't make sense to me on a controller. For some reason it doesn't click in my brain that R1 and R2 operate the same as the face buttons and I cant organize them in a way im comfortable with. It's way less effort to use the directional input anyway. Why would I sit there struggling just to operate the game? I'd rather not play. I'm starting to really like fighting games, I dont like not being able to actually play them.
Not a modern hater, but you do less combo dmg (20% less), have access to only one type of special eg. Light medium heavy, and lose access to tons of normals on each character; the one type of special and not being able to access optimal normals can make neutral a headache when playing vs better players cause you might just not have the best answer or setup a classic player has with moves with better frame data or frame data that is better for a specific situation. The plus’s are you have less of a mental stack when playing, a likely quicker reaction with supers and specials in neutral and can probably get into matches quicker without having to sit in practice mode. That last part I would argue is if you learn classic and put the time into learning the inputs it is something you only have to learn once and once you learn it it can be applicable to multiple characters and can transfer to multiple games, plus you are not gimping your dmg and routes of play; For reference I started modern too. Lastly I guess I would say, it might not be fun but if you look at any of the best players you might see something even close to like 50% of their hours in practice mode, but it wouldn’t be practicing the inputs outside the first time they picked up a character it would be practicing what to do in different situations.
@@victorbesson78 you must've switched off modern pretty quick because only the part about not having all my normals is an actual problem. (Even then I have a special button if I really need it) Honestly, not having them and having to find my own way to do things with the moves I have acces to is fine by me. Only moves done with the special button give 20% less damage, motion inputs still give full scaling. Hell, even the auto combos give full scaling. I may not have access to the most optimal routes but I can still lab what would be optimal for me; just like I did with dj before they nerfed him and took my combo away. Also what is this stigma that modern users never practice, regardless of what control scheme you play, you still need practice to be any good. Damn near 75% of my time is spent in either training or casual matches (which is basically training mode with a human opponent) Once you learn modern you can pick other characters as well. Some of them are pretty bad, but the ones that are usable make this game actually playable for me. Like I said, I wouldn't be here if there wasn't modern. It's still relatively new as well, hopefully with a couple updates it'll got better.
@@Picheal43 don’t have anything against modern, it sounded like in the op you were saying you didn’t want to spend the time to practice doing motion inputs for supers main thing I was talking about for the practice aspect, would then assume with that you wouldn’t want to spend the time to do optimal combos with motion input specials but if you are doing that and only using modern for supers I guess that is a thing. Ik you can do traditional inputs with modern but if you use just the modern special button it’s like only the heavy version that comes out and depending on the character and the move can have bad frame data depending on the situation. Also probably have 50% of my time on modern maybe around 70 hours. Came from Mortal Kombat though with 1000’s of hours.
I will say, I was in Japan just a month ago and there were basically no cabinets for SF6 in Arcades - I legit had to hunt for them. Whereas they have a Gundam fighting game where basically every arcade has an entire floor dedicated to it. I find it interesting that the online community for SF6 in Japan seems to be so big while the arcade community was basically non-existent.
Its mad annoying that modern players are just playing different. I now have to learn how to play vs somebody who inputs super in 1 frame and all the motion that makes dp fair are gone. I dont care if its not too strong, its mad annoying. Its their first go at it I guess but i dont love it
As an 08er who started with SF4/BBCT the only thing I don't like about modern is having to hold R2 for certain normals and how weird it feels and how hard it is on my muscle memory, after GBVSR I'm done doing 623 motions any more than I have to lol
Thanks to M. Control I can play more with friends and family, before that they could hopefully do a hadoken with luck, not to mention characters like Guile that you need to mantain back.
I feel like ive improved fighting modern players a lot so not too bad only thing id change is make the 1 button supers into a quick mash input or smthn so its not as instant. The other advantaged are strong enough
I think especially for a beginner like myself I find it a good starting point. I want to do classic, once I play it more. Though rn I’m learning guilty gear strive. So once I’m more comfortable with guilty gear I’d want to apply that to street fighter 6
RE: Modern Chun, I feel like this happens all the time, they're just not making that much progress. I've spent a lot of time getting around gimmicky Classic players in high Platinum, like teleport-happy Sim relying on people who don't know how to crosscut. Scrubby Chuns have been annoying me with cheap losses and from what I understand this goes back to SFV and SFIV too.
Modern helped me go from not liking fighting games like that because of the execution to becoming a masters player within year 1 of the game. Eventually I did switch to classic but modern definitely helped me ease into it way more than I would have if the game didn’t have modern
Crazy thing is that those streamers/vtubers are not just only playing for the events like CR cup, they actually are learning how to play the game and grinding. Some even spent over 900 hours for playing SF6 (Akami Karubi for example). Modern is obviously not the perfect system in the world, but I think it benefits so much more than it damages.
Sup guys. Just wanted to add that a lot of people also pointed out that Modern is very useful for accessibility reasons, and has helped many disabled gamers play the game, which is obviously another big positive case for it.
Appreciate you including this ❤ Love your content and loved cheering for you at Red Bull Kumite, Broski
Anything that lets more people play is a good thing
My one armed friend plays classic and thinks modern is gae shit
Anyone run into a modern Zangeif?…don’t jump or walk next to the bear carelessly🤕
@@diomarius7445 I’ve 100% gotten hit there LMAO
damn bobby basketball got absolutely destroyed lmao
At least bro will live till 94 😂
broski spent more time trashing on him than it did for bobby to make the joke
He got dunked on
Did he eventually get to call Broski a Scrub?
What is the reference though? I’ve never heard of this
Bobbybasketball1990 was a good joke
Due to cancer, I've had many surgeries, to the point where its affected my hands and my dexterity with them. Modern controls has allowed me to enjoy a character outside a Charged based toons, for the first time in 15 years. If anything, Modern controls let me enjoy a fighting game like I used too when I was standing in a Arcade back in the day.
Hell yeah
Feelsgoodman
toons?
@@WormyJester8 Its an old term, cartoons got turned into toons, which implies a character picked. "oh I like this toon, I'll play him" I'm old af ok? lol
@@Tinytraveler I have played SF for a long time, been a member of srk forums when that was a thing and I never heard people in the FGC call characters "toons", that's why I was asking
The best thing about b0bbybasketball1999 is that he used a 0 instead of an o which implies bobbybasketball1999 already existed before Broski made the joke.
_b0bbybasketball1999 on his death bed_
"Shh, quiet everyone. Dad is asking me to lean over to hear his last words."
"..."
"Well, what did he say?"
"He said, 'worth it.'"
Without modern, 2 of my friends would never get into this game and we would never have the most fun we had in street fighter 6. And they are still playing and one of them switched to Classic.
To add on to your point about Modern giving you bad habits: I've found that lot of modern players in ranked easily take the bait from a fakeout jump/safejump because they're so used to being able to anti-air on reaction with one button. I've won a lot of matches by faking them out with a shallow divekick, a safejump, or a hooligan cancel (I play Cammy) and basically killing them for whiffing an anti-air. It's great that more people get to play the game with it, but I def see what you mean with that last point/
People asking for a Modern filter don't realize that the rage quitter filter is already doing that job... Most Modern players I encounter rage quit once their gimmicks get figured out. It happens like, 7 out of 10 times, really...
Like, dude, Cammy's auto-light is not a real blockstring... stop mashing it to fish for confirms. You're just getting blown up over and over again...
@@runbaa9285 lmao they love mashing that light auto combo
@@LuigiG145 Conditioning is really effective against modern IMO speaking as a competitive modern player myself. Whether it’s baiting with a fake jump or doing everything BUT drive impact so when it finally comes I’m not even ready to one-button react, it’s an effective way to shut autopilot shenanigans down.
You can sometimes even just neutral jump and they bait it.
It really depends on the character - juri dp for 1 won't lose to stuff like that due to the range and hitbox esp if it's a decent player.
I think a big factor with Modern controls that is often forgotten is having way less attacking buttons. Having 6 simultanious buttons to attack always was a huge hurdle in SF for beginners because in practically all other action games (that are not fighting games) you have one or two, at most three. Having six is a crazy concept for non-FGC people. Of course once you have experience, you'll learn their purpose and also the "best" buttons for each character (and which to mostly avoid), but new players don't have that vocabulary. It's a foreign language for them. Breaking it down to three makes it WAY more palpable.
Funnily enough with all the extra buttons that are needed for Modern you'll end up with 7 needed buttons in the end instead of only 6 in classic. But if course, four of them have special functions with a clear purpose even for beginners.
In my opinion, you could honestly throw out some of those special buttons because they are basically pressing two buttons at once. I'm also not the biggest fan of auto combo and never really use it because it is more interesting to me to figure out combos myself, but that's all personal preference I guess. That way you could shrink down the pool to 4 buttons, or maybe 4 plus two shoulder buttons for DI and DP which makes more intuitive sense.
The one thing I often see argued is that the 6 classic buttons have purpose, but no one explains what purpose they really have. Why is it such a problem to, for instance, put Heavy Kick and Heavy Punch on the same button? I'm mainly asking that because a 6 button layout does not really work on gamepads, which many more people have access to than fight sticks.
I wish modern at least made you have to do one quarter circle for super. Because your opponent holding back then getting a instant super on defense is easily the worst thing about playing against modern
Or delay modern supers that aren't cancelled into by something like 6 frames where they can't block as if they did the input.
@@Greenleaf_ that would defeat the purpose of the damage nerf tho capcom fully intended on some pros using modern to react to things
I really dont care about the strength of modern controls. Its the playstyles associated with them.
I just never play against a modern player and think "damn this was a fun game". Its ALWAYS "damn im whooping this guys ass, and now all hes gonna do is turtle up and look for instant reactions"
Every modern player diamond 3 and onwards is just playing the lamest they can. 0 respect
1 Frame DPs/Anti-Airs and no excess startup on Command Grabs.
@@JackTheRustler1332 couldn't have said it better myself
I feel like japanese pros just see modern as more like a different groove style for some characters, while western players still see it as scrub mode
Japanese people aint scrubs
@@rundown132 no one said they were buddy why you swinging at shadows
Japanese people are not cry babies like the west.
That's pretty in line with what Capcom wanted it to be actually. I very much recall when the game was about to release, Nakayama was always saying that he wanted to see dedicated modern players at all levels of play, so I think it's safe to say he succeeded.
Can everyone please chill the f out with these hot takes?!
One day that capybara is gonna hit that other capybara and I'm here for it
NO, estop. Capybaras do not hit other Capybaras, Capy is good, Capy is sweet...
great job capcom for introducing more people at the game and making them divided at the same time
pro players has to KNOW that they are playing against a 1-button-super and make decisions over it.
You cant try to surprise Modern Character with an EX move for faster it looks. But you can play knowing M-Guy is waiting for 1-button-super back to you.
Its a different mind game.
100% good takes here.
The most interesting criticism I’ve heard about Modern is how it formatively limits ALL characters to having a maximum of two charge moves only.
I don't mind it, i just work around it
I feel its more easy to bait out supers from them because they have a trigger happy thing
If u play a competent modern player they're not trigger happy, they do this on reaction.
ah yes, Bobby Basketball. Johnny Doughnuts' cousin.
Having to adapt to play against certain characters- fair enough, seeing modern and having to adapt to one button specials and supers is extremely frustrating
SF6 is the first fighting game I've gotten into. Honestly, I really hate playing against modern players. What you said about "anti-hype" is exactly it. Seeing a classic player counter something with a raw super is a crazy moment. Seeing the same from someone that just has to press 2 buttons feels cheap instead.
I only get mad when a player beats me. I drink salt everyday, no M or monster
Yeah but one time I played a modern akuma and I got hit by a dp
Something to maybe bridge the gap could be adding a tiny bit of extra startup to stuff like Supers to help it match the slight bit of time it would take to input the move on classic. Sort of like how Digital input controllers in Smash have artificial travel time to balance out not using a stick for movement.
No... the one button input already does less dmg. Plus if they did that, modern would be a whole different game as the frames would not match classic.
@@OkairMcLaren Does less damage matter when it stops you from being stunned, or when it will get the kill regardless, like the clip?
@@OkairMcLaren 20 percent less damage isn’t a deterrent to play classic. IMO it should be 33% rounded down. Artificial frame delay would make it more balanced if they don’t go the 33% route. I feel one or the other is good for balance.
modern feels bad to lose to and win against. IDK how that could possibly be fixed so leave it as is i guess? If it makes lesser skilled people happy and gives people with disabilities a way to play its a positive in some way, but I cant help but wish there was a separate queue for modern.
M makes me go eww
Right now a modern player in top 8 is pretty rare. I just hope the meta stays this way. Modern can kind of remove beautiful parts of SF legacy language.
I will say, I watched a bit of the AT&T thing when they had sf6 on there, and it was even worse than previous iterations. A big difference between it and CR is that the people on there actually wanted to learn and do well by their team.
I wish there were more in-game tools to learn motion inputs. The one concession to that is that one pizza minigame in the story mode, and that doesn't really give tips, explain timings or how to use your movement as part of the input etc. There are definitely new players who want to give Classic a go but lack direction.
The thing is, going to classic should not be necessary if they want to
You have all the tools need to learn motion inputs. Issue is that people that want to learn or think they need to master everything before they even think about playing.
No clue how you watched multiple AT&T SF tourneys and thought that the SF5 one was better
@@sorubro2193 they absolutely should if they want to get better because that would mean there is no reason to use classic and everyone should be playing classic.
@@MarkoLomovic Why "should" everyone playing Classic? Why can't players play with what they're most comfortable?
"This is street fighter" *spams hadoken*
A lot of classic players are hard stuck doing their gimmicky flow charts, too
Still better than 1 button DP.
Honestly all that Chun Li example demonstrated to me is that Modern enables _new_ versions of those play styles rather than introducing them in the first place
Like the Ryus that just do junp heavy kick into sweep over and over and over that *will* get them wins until they meet someone that can anti-air, which might never happen.
Or generally people who do the riskiest option at every single chance in hopes the opponent doesn't know how to deal with it, and those players do in fact make it to the top rank of games
Frankly the only difference I can tell is that that Chun playstyle is much safer and looks a bit closer to how one might actually play the game, fireballs and anti airs
Just seems pretty normal
I had the same thought. I’m not sure that Modern enables more that type of playstyle referenced with Chun. In fact, when it’s easier to do more inputs, like in Modern, you definitely see more special moves.
@@jennyinutil2018 so true, isn't fighting game about adapting to your opponent's habits and styles? I'll treat Modern as another playstyle to counter
Those new means of playing are nice, but against the opponent its rather linear because it skews the options that you can force onto chun in this example.
Modern Gief as one myself i can smell the fear on my oponents when i get close to them that they change all their gameplan for the second round
At the level I'm at, the instant anti air and supers are very frustrating to play against.
Bait the supers. Stop jumping all the time. Classic lessons. Modern players will help you learn it even faster.
if you cant beat the modern players who anti air and super you, you also cant beat the higher rated players who will do the same thing on classic. I'm diamond 2 rn with classic akuma and like 90% of the reason I win most of my games is because I anti air people who do nothing but jump
@@justingoersif the modern player is decent he just has to outplay them though.
@@OkairMcLarenyeah, and?
@@OkairMcLarenisn't the point of fighting games that you should outplay the opponent?
Bobbybasketball1990 is 34 years old
The largest problem with Modern is that it's a band-aid.
Imagine if this game wasn't designed with Drive Rush in mind, then at the last minute, someone added it.
That's what Modern feels like.
To get Modern to "work" all specials that come from it needed a hefty 1/5 damage reduction, and such a solution doesn't work for everything. It's why Zangief's level 1 eats 2/5 scaling in Modern.
Modern works best in a game designed from the floor up for it, where it's meant to be a Groove type setting, or is even the only way to play.
It doesnt work as an accessibility option for a game genre with a high barrier of entry trying to entice more sales.
A fighting game from the ground up that is designed to have easy controls and high-level gameplay that players can instantly hop into without spending hours labbing up combos and getting their execution right would work.
Some studio of EX fighting game devs tried it with a game on PC that never left Beta.
It was crazy fun, and it let everyone enjoy fighting games at a higher level.
But the game NEEDS to be designed from the ground up with this intent.
Whoever gets that product right will likely take FGs by storm.
Justice for Johnny basketball 1999
Bobby basketball does not deserve that hate
The only problem with Modern I've had is people in very low ranks don't have the execution wall that Classic people have.
Their combos also continue to work in bad lag whereas Classic players kinda get left out to dry.
Both of these are kinda minor issues but it's likely a lot of the salt for it revolves around these points.
SF6 was my first ever fighting game and i went with classic becasue i just thought it was more fun. My problem with modern was that as i was spending time learning inputs and combos i found it very frustrating that when i went into a match id mostly play agaisnt modern players and while i was often dropping combos or messing up dps for antiairs the modern players had perfect antiairs easily and the autocombos made everything they did so consistent even though i could tell they were as new to the game as i was. I found it kind of disheartening that i was putting so much time and effort into learning the game while modern was making everything so easy for my opponents. Now that im better at the game i dont have a problem with modern anymore but i do think it really sucks to be a fully new player going classic vs modern and thats where alot of the hate comes from in stuff like twitch chats.
I see your point, and i was in the same situation as you, but it's a position we ultimately CHOSE to be in. And in the end it's well worth it
@@cheeks_of_the_boreal_valley i totally agree im just shedding some light on why as a new player i initially hated modern
was insane whiplash to see you pull up that truktruk tf2 clip from ages ago. i played on a highlander team with that guy! time flies...
Considering how linear this game feels sometimes due to DR (many optimal combo routes feel samey for a lot of characters, DR/Fireball, etc...) I don't mind modern changing playstyles/matchups.
It sorta feels like a "Groove" or "ISM" system where you have to face opponents/characters differently depending on what options they have/lack based on their controller scheme.
Bobby basketball made me laugh like crazy. I absolutely loved it
Sf 6 is my first sf game aki was what drew my attention being such a unique character but I didn't even know modern controls was a thing but it really helps to learn the basics of the character but I now use classic controls 😊
BobbyBasketball getting cooked had me dying bruh 😂
I need that thumbnail so bad
All controls schemes at the end of the day should melt away and become basically an extension to your fingers so you don't have to think about it, this is true for shooter, action rpgs and should be same for fgs. My friends have been playing fgs for around 5 years (and are very experienced with motions) and I am pretty fucking new, modern controls let me play with them semi competently (more so cause i come from smash melee).
I've been playing since SF4. I played SF5 religiously from release until it ended. I've played all the classic Street Fighter games and dabbled in nearly every other fighting game franchise. I decided to only play Modern in SF6 for something new and it's really fun.
eh, I think modern is good, BUT the could've done a better job with balancing it... instead of decreasing damage, which is stupid, they should've simply added start-up frames for modern controls (or even better, have the character automatically do the input motion), to offset the fact that you don't have execution time... that would basically solve the "frame 1 one button super" issue, plus many others, and it would force new players to think about what they're doing while also being able to just press one button. That's like the basic change I'd make to modern... personally I'd go further than that, but that one change I think would basically even the playfield and you could get rid of the damage decrease too.
Tbf on the last point, i feel like that would apply to almost any character, modern or not. SF6 is my first fighting game, and a few months in, i tried Lily for the first time, and that's when i learned i had a "spam wake up OD reversal" habit which i unlearned with Lily because she doesnt have that option. So the flavor of bad habit might be unique to modern, the development of bad habits is not unique.
As you pointed out, it isn't particularly strong, but being immune to stun, and not having to buffer during block strings is so useful in this game that it can net advantages for the player.
sf6 is my first fighting game and I chose classic because for me the whole point of playing fighting games is to learn how they work and how to control your character properly. That's where the fun comes from; learning and executing. Yesterday you couldn't do it but today you can, and tomorrow you will learn a new punish, a new frame trap, something that will keep learning and trying. I don't see the point in taking the easy road. All the satisfaction comes from the struggle of losing, learning, and overcoming.
As someone whose first "serious" Sf was 6 and who is a modern player, I found your take on the control scheme very nuanced. I will definitely think about how I approach the game--especially if I'm playing Chun.
bobby_basketball_1999 is Team Fortress 2 appropriation
its definitely a welcome change but yeah the easy-reaction dp or supers maybe need to be accounted for in some way when its modern vs classic matchup. Definitely a net positive feature I'd say
4:31 I BOUGHT SF6 BECAUSE OF MODERN, and for world tour
Same
Same. Even if I tend to play classic more, World Tour is a level of love for offline modes in a fighting game I haven't seen since SoulCalibur
We call Majin Vegeta "Modern Vegeta"
It's a tough case because I can honestly see both sides of it. It's really helpful for newer players of course, that's what it's there for and very helpful for physically challenged players, which is really important and nice to have.
But on the other hand I remember everyone in the community rightfully getting mad at that SF4 "Mike Ross V Cheater" video where the cheater was doing some stuff that you can kind of do in SF6 with modern controls if your reactions are on point.
The counterplay is there obviously but I can understand people's frustrations fighting Modern users in high Diamond/Master who clearly know what they're doing and would rather curb their lack of reactions with a faster input.
They're trading damage for that faster reaction time. They can be baited. It's not just easier. They have to win more interactions
@@Puntersnatchcan't really baited if delay dp still win vs most jump and crosscut(seriously tho zangief air or jump in basically dead can only do ground things that is not overhead) cause jump just gonna get aa and overhead is slow that modern can easily anti air it or better yet DI
@tilting_cat3344 baiting is not just jumping in and eating the dp lol. You have to be able to get close enough they dp but far enough they miss. Usually dive kicks.
As a tip don't jump into gief modern or classic. You can jump over him as a cross up where lariat sucks behind him. But he's got a lot of moves to stop jumping in to him. Train forward jumping if you're trying to avoid spds.
Also modern players have a mental stack too. Do enough on the ground and you can get the occasional jump in too. They aren't gods.
@Puntersnatch This depends on the character's kit - Juri dp won't lose to that as her dp is the best in the game in my opinion. If the juri player is decent, you'll never be able to jump freely. Some characters are just built better in some regards.
@@Puntersnatchthe damage differential isn’t really that significant
I like how GBVS does modern the most personally. It's just baked into regular play. Perfect scenario: modern just /is/ the way to play so as not to discredit talented players, but still with incentives like extra damage for inputting specials and no 1-button supers. QCF+PP raises the floor just enough that modern players gotta learn the most common motion to access their most powerful moves, and opens the door for later doing motions in combos for damage.
I'm someone who, apart from some excursions into basically unknown fighting games on the PS1, never played or really interacted with the genre at all. At best I could name *some* of the characters in SF and that's it. One of the main reasons was the learning cliff and the general impression that you get stomped hard by players that have been playing those games for many years, decades even at times.
Street Fighter 6 did two things to draw me in: The World Tour which gives me a mode that feels like many games I played before while also introducing me to the toolkit you can expect; and the modern control scheme. It shouldn't be a surprise that I only have a controller and no fight stick (I wonder how expensive these are), so a 6 button layout doesn't even properly work...and I tried for a small bit because there is actually a quest in the World Tour that makes you win a fight in both control schemes.
Now, neither is perfect, at least from my limited point of view: Both can lead to bad habits and I noticed that already. To combat this, I started practicing both the fast input (direction+special) and the "complicated" input that is closer to classic, to get a better feel for things - plus appearantly if you execute the longer input, your moves get the appropriate damage output which is a bonus.
I have yet to play against players because the anxiety is strong with me (and being alone in the whole thing doesn't help, but that's a different issue), but I spend time practicing things, working on combo trials and whatnot to figure out which character suits me best.
One thing I wonder though: If Modern is mainly a tool for beginners, how are you supposed to make the switch to Classic if so desired?
And as a side question: What makes modern AKI so bad? I genuinely don't know and she's a very interesting character that I might want to try, but due to above only really have access to Modern.
I'm waiting for post-modern controls where you just pay someone to play as your champion.
It's just a bot. "Everybody get hype! Let's make some noise!"
I also like that in order to play modern characters to full potential you still need to learn the proper inputs for a lot of their moves because modern only gives you 1 of the normal versions and EX (not to mention some moves it doesn’t cover at all). For example modern Luke is a popular character. Simple character, good for beginners, very strong with modern because of his level 1. You can get pretty far with only medium fireball and medium flash knuckle but eventually you will want to learn how to do a fullscreen meterless fireball and a low recovery one for poking, as well as his most damaging combos that require light and heavy knuckle or his charged heavy knuckle into level 3 DI trap for free plus frames. Modern Chun is also popular and her stance just doesn’t have a modern input, not to mention that modern only provides moderate assistance with charge moves (all it does is remove the need to press forward after charging. You can just press punch once you have enough back charge for a fireball for example). Even modern Gief players are going to want to learn to do light SPD since that is arguably the most powerful one because of its insane range. I think it introduces people to traditional fighting game inputs in a less frustrating and overwhelming way and people don’t give it enough credit for that, some people don’t even realize that high level modern players are doing motions at all (part of it is because they called it modern, which sounds like it is trying to replace motion specials, rather than make them something a player can learn to level up their game after they have enjoyed the game for a while rather than a basic requirement to play at all).
I'm alright with it if it gets people to play outside of house parties and stuff, same reason I'm hesitantly glad the new fatal fury is getting the smart style (though I do think gatekeeping certain maneuvers or moves is a good idea to get people to actually learn the game)
The section about playstyles makes sense, but to a certain degree I think it also applies to some Classic players, where they're trying to find a strat that makes them climb fast (throw unsafe pokes, mash super/drive reversal/DI on wakeup, press buttons on full screen) and then they get frustrated when it stops working or get hardstuck in Diamond. If anything I suspect part of the Modern hatred comes from those type of players, although I agree the worst part of Modern is the fact it stops the game to a crawl just to bait supers, DPs and DIs.
With regards to the streamer events, I saw a bit of the AT&T one and not only the SF portion was agonizing, the rest of the games were too since no one gave enough of a shit to learn aside from 4 people. Same applies for the OTK one, although not even the players were invested enough and just picked Zangief/Honda.
tekken sajam slam had variety streamers and non fighting game players actually engage and enjoy the game, probably because of the coaches being great
That and Tekken is more easy for a casual - you can actually mash and get stuff, so having a coach teach you what you need to mash to do cool stuff helps a lot.
Point kinda proven with Dokibird and Coney (on the first slam): they used only a bit of King's stuff and still get to do cool sequences and get hype on their first Tekken tournament.
Having friends/friendly environment does wonders.
It's because Tekken basically uses modern controls, which makes learning everything easier. The reason it works is very much the same reasons why Modern works.
Tekken is more intuitive to understand what the heck are You doing.
It allows people who wouldn’t easily be able to play play and doesn’t effect the top players too much I would say it’s definitely healthy
I appreciate this video. I will say, as a low level, newish to fighting games player, modern makes low ranked matches suck. The amount of times I'd get a win streak going in silver only to get it ended by a modern player was pretty frustrating. There are a lot more classic players down here, but the modern players are pretty brutal to fight against when they appear. Largely because they have an easier time performing punish combos because of auto combos. Most people down here, when you make a mistake, only take off like an eighth of your bar, but modern will take off a quarter to a third. They aren't unbeatable, but fighting modern requires an extreme amount of focus. I'm curious how modern will compare with classic players now that I've hit gold. I'm expecting them to start feeling similar now that I'm getting to the point where classic combos are more normal to see
If they just took out or reduced the damage penalty and made the modern inputs macros that included the motion input delay i think it'd fix a lot of the issues.
I'm very impressed with how modern is designed overall. If other fighting games just stole the idea wholesale and tailored it to their specific system mechanics, I think that would be a good thing if it's executed as well as Capcom's was. It looks like SNK is already on it with City of Wolves, knowing their relationship with Capcom I wouldn't be surprised if Nakayama directly suggested it to Oda.
You hit all the main points. My one requested change is i do not feel Modern should get to choose to do full motions for full damage at their discretion. That benefit doesnt help people that want basic inputs, doesnt help the streamers needing quicker and easier onboarding, nor does it help people with physical accessibility issues. It mainly just helps more intermediate to advanced players optimize better. I'm fine with a motion still working in Modern if someone wants to experiment, but not to avoid the damage reduction. If someone plays Modern, it should be a full commitment to both the pros and cons, and this change wouldnt gatekeep anyone that actually needs Modern either.
I cant think of any reason for capcom to have made Modern allowing full damage motion as they did unless it was hoping that older players would consider adopting Modern, with long term plans for the company to make a future spinoff or mainline title that goes Modern only.
I think you’re missing the main benefit: it allows modern players to learn classic without being thrown back to square one. If you look at the distribution of modern players, you see that it’s much higher at low ranks. The possible explanations for this (that I can think of are 1. Modern isn’t viable at high levels (this is obviously not the case) 2. Modern players get bored and stop playing before they get to higher ranks (this definitely happens, but isn’t enough to explain the disparity imo) and 3. Modern players transition to classic as they learn the game (I’m willing to bet this is the main reason). The only reason so many people switch from modern to classic is that you are encouraged to learn motion inputs in modern. If they took away motion controls, you’d have a lot of players stick with modern forever, and I’m willing to bet people would be even more mad about it. Also without full damage on half your specials modern would be significantly worse, when as it is it’s very well balanced
Edit: The only thing I would change is that you should get the 80% scaling on specials when you do them in an auto combo
@Kazaam1996 yeah but they can still learn the classic motions under modern. I'm not saying to take those away. I'm saying they don't get the damage benefit. If it's truly to learn, then the damage shouldn't matter. If the incentive of damage is necessary for them to learn in the short term, then they can join classic and learn in real time. The majority of modern players are using it because they like using the simpler controls and they stick to them. If a person is already to the point of comfort of mixing in Classic inputs for damage purposes to optimize, then they are obviously at least capable of the motion execution so they can use full classic mode at any time to get the damage. Having this hybrid scenario just serves to benefit Modern users that already have the execution for classic.
As far as your point about it potentially enticing Modern users to stick to Modern forever, I'm completely fine with that because that is what the majority of Modern players do anyway. Modern is here to stay and it isn't being seen as some transitional stepping stone to Classic. It's seen as an alternative permanent control method. I'm also not sure where your balance argument comes from in that last part of the comment. I'm only saying that specials and supers under Modern should always get the damage reduction regardless of how they are input. That doesn't change the current balance at all except for the execution-skilled players using full motions to optimize, and those skilled players are the ones that I don't feel Modern shouldn't cater to. I want Modern to be there for simplicity and accessibility, not for an execution-skilled player to pick and choose all for the trade of losing a few normals and special variants.
@@misterkeebler You say that the majority of modern players stay modern… what makes you think that? From everything I’ve seen, new players who pick up modern end up transitioning to classic. I guess I don’t have lots of hard evidence because I’m basing this on my own experience (as well as my friends) but I’m guessing neither do you so I guess we can both believe what we want. Also, I think it’s ridiculous to say that decreasing the damage on motion specials doesn’t change the balance. Even without forcing less damage, modern is still an overall weaker control scheme. If you did force less damage, it would be significantly weaker. If it is an “alternative, permanent control scheme” like you say, then it makes absolutely zero sense to severely handicap modern that way. According to you, either modern is it’s own control scheme that people need to stick with forever (I don’t think that makes much sense) or modern should only cater to low skill players and shouldn’t be considered by “execution-skilled players” (this is less ridiculous, but completely contradicts your earlier point that it’s a viable alternative control scheme). You cannot have both, because as new players learn how to play, they become more skilled. That’s how the game works (source: was a new player once)
@Kazaam1996 we can agree to disagree but I'm more speaking in context that many people praise Modern as a way to get newer players into street fighter because it removes the execution barrier. That aspect is something I like and appreciate. Having one button specials does make some conventional situations like anti airing carry less risk than traditional controls, and it really shifts the balance with burnout and drive impact, but I accept those tradeoffs for giving newer players or ones that need access some help. I'm just against having it mixed with full motion specials with standard damage because if you can actually do the motions, then I prefer a person not have the ability to pick and choose based on the situation. If you want this, then that's fine. But at that point it's not arguing that Modern is for accessibility. Access was achieved before that. Having the ability to do motions in Modern for full damage does not really incentivize people to eventually move to Classic. All that is left for Classic at that point is just some additional normals and special variants. The incentive to move would be higher if they were required to go Classic to get the damage. Without that aspect, then it becomes a matter of what did the Modern version of a character lose.
Basically, if a person sees Modern as some form of -ism or Groove type of scenario, then they probably like things as it is, though I'd argue that's not an accessibility convo anymore. Me personally, I like seeing Modern for accessibility and dislike seeing it as a Groove or Ism because of how it slows down the pace of a match in ways that are not interesting to watch or play against at higher levels.
We get a lot of hate for sure. I play onehanded so I swapped to modern. The accessibility is great for that.
I think the only issue for modern is that contrary to Granblue Fantasy Versus Rising or 2XKO in the future, where the main control scheme is simple input and with no drawback so it is how you should play the game... SF6 is still designed for classic controls so the devs have to create arbitrary drawback to make modern not as 'good' but theses drawbacks can't be too much or it would fuck people who legitimately like playing as modern/can play only thanks to it. And so the advantage of no motion input become quite oppressive.
After we've played with it for a while, I almost wish they completely ripped off the bandaid and just designed the game for modern controls. It's always going to be an unpopular move for veterans but you can't get these games bigger without lowering the skill floor.
Granblue did it better. Full access to specials, without sacrificing almost anything. No bull and boring autocombos. It just bridges the gap, without separating the crowd.
It would have been so much better if SF 'copied the homework'!
I'm actually really glad it has drawbacks, it gives people an incentive to learn inputs, inputs are not the central skill curve of fighting games, they are not everything, but they should exist and be the standard.
@@TheOblomoffI do not agree, granblues easy inputs are just strictly better, and that's kinda boring. If there was an incentive to do inputs anyway, that would be better
@@thomasshepard7891 yeah lets ruin the series to cater to morons...
I hate modern.
...
No, not for people using it competitively, that's perfectly fine.
I hate modern because its existence is the reason why you're not allowed to map specials with the same motion in world tour.
Yes, the casual mode is the reason I despise it.
You have to approach modern players as if they are playing different characters - like fighting the EX or Orochi version of a KOF character. Similar in many ways, but requires some significant change in counterplay.
I heavily agree that modern really changes the risk reward and playstyle of the player themselves and the opponent. The mind game of jump timings is very different cause you just dont jump on them or are only trying to bait the anti air with neutrral jump or something, and all your points about burnout as well. I hadn't really considered the spectator part a ton but its 100% true unless you're a really uninformed player.
CEO chat was horrendous. People would never shut up when modern was on. Twitch chat sucks and they never play the game
I'm all for Modern, I hate fighting it. It is a good thing, bu t it's madly frustrating when I get an input out in decent time, and they get to push a button and win. It's good for the game, but it frustrates me. So many people us it for cheap easy wins, and I hate it.
this is amazing lmao
I think Modern controls teaches me to play the game
Modern is like a defensive variation.
Saint is just that way, if he doesn't like it he'll downplay it
I think the biggest argument about modern is the instant invincible reversals and supers which I totally agree about and think they should have a 4 frame delay or something. But there are restrictions on pretty much everything else for new players. We still need to learn:
When to Block
How to play with a character that’s missing some moves like a sweep or overhead
How to approach
How to defend
How to drive rush
How to use drive impact
How to counter EVERY characters annoying move
Game knowledge for EVERY character
Rps
All of which feels like the actual parts of the game that people play street fighter for. so while it is a crutch that gives you a leg up, it’s not a “solve all problems” button
I cannot stand when people have unique and varied ways to play.
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i've given up jumping when i see a modern player. also when they have CA, I have to play extra cautious.
I find modern annoying in the moment and then I just often realize, its on me for losing no matter what. If it was a gimmick or good gameplay classic or modern my fault. I think its whatever and I dont think modern has hurt the game and has helped it, if anything it has helped get people who whine about everything out.
My problem with this is "my fault" does not equal "credit to my opponent".
For all you know, they might never AA you without Modern, and the whole match plays differently.
Even the reduced mental stack is tremendous and helps every facet of your game, when you know reactions with specials/supers are handled.
If they didn’t beat you with a punish like a frame 1 super or special, still on the same boat as op it was my fault I lost. Modern loses access to plenty of normals and a few specials on most characters, plus they can only do one type of special. So they are playing a handicapped character with the only plus being better reactions from smaller mental stack and faster input. But outside of that everything else in combo or normals they use in neutral are things a classic player can do and if I lose to that it’s not different than losing to classic, on top of me knowing they did that with less damage and worse normals/specials with likely worse frame data cause it is only one version of special or an in in unoptimal normal cause they don’t have access to the optimal one.
@@victorbesson78 Why do they have to beat you with it in order for it to matter? This game can be so snowbally, that winning the 1st interaction can carry you to corner, eating oki and you never recover. Only a few touches to kill.
I think everyone agrees it is in some way our own fault when we lose (since we never play perfectly) and also that Modern has some downsides.
Those 2 things are not being debated and I don't know why people keep bringing it back to this topic whenever other aspects of Modern is being criticized. It's like the safe space of Modern defenders.
@@libertyprime9307 bro "Those 2 things are not being debated and I don't know why people keep bringing it back to this topic whenever other aspects of Modern is being criticized. It's like the safe space of Modern defenders." If the upsides are criticized what do you expect the response to be? Its the downsides and it has more than the upsides. Also the last remark is the opposite of getting your point across it is basically trying to not have a discussion. Also I have seen your 10 other replies on other comments and if we both want a petty ending to our responses I find it funny you are the only one to like your own comment.
@@libertyprime9307Whether it is "Easier to anti air" or "Easier to do stuff on reaction" it is, no matter what, my fault as the player for losing. Thats the reality of fighting gamss, my opponent can be MenaRD and its still on me for losing. I didnt adapt, I didnt properly punish etc. Claiming they have an "Easier out" doesnt make you better, it just makes you whiner. Your losses are always YOUR fault.
bobby basketball didnt deserve that u just dont got appreciation for a good bit 😢
I still mash on modern 😂
This is my first time playing a street fighter game, I only bought it because of modern. I can't do double quarter circles in combos consistently, especially when its something like doing deejay's sobat into his level three. I've been told before "you could just practice and get the muscle memory" but why would I spend hours practicing this one thing when I could use those hours practicing something else. I'd much rather spend that time on a control scheme I can actually use and expand my knowledge from there. Work smarter not harder. I could've played the game without supers until I was able to do them, but even then the six button layout doesn't make sense to me on a controller. For some reason it doesn't click in my brain that R1 and R2 operate the same as the face buttons and I cant organize them in a way im comfortable with. It's way less effort to use the directional input anyway. Why would I sit there struggling just to operate the game? I'd rather not play. I'm starting to really like fighting games, I dont like not being able to actually play them.
Not a modern hater, but you do less combo dmg (20% less), have access to only one type of special eg. Light medium heavy, and lose access to tons of normals on each character; the one type of special and not being able to access optimal normals can make neutral a headache when playing vs better players cause you might just not have the best answer or setup a classic player has with moves with better frame data or frame data that is better for a specific situation. The plus’s are you have less of a mental stack when playing, a likely quicker reaction with supers and specials in neutral and can probably get into matches quicker without having to sit in practice mode. That last part I would argue is if you learn classic and put the time into learning the inputs it is something you only have to learn once and once you learn it it can be applicable to multiple characters and can transfer to multiple games, plus you are not gimping your dmg and routes of play; For reference I started modern too. Lastly I guess I would say, it might not be fun but if you look at any of the best players you might see something even close to like 50% of their hours in practice mode, but it wouldn’t be practicing the inputs outside the first time they picked up a character it would be practicing what to do in different situations.
This is actually word for word the same reasons I stay modern. Double quarter circle makes my wrists crackle after practicing them.
@@victorbesson78 you must've switched off modern pretty quick because only the part about not having all my normals is an actual problem. (Even then I have a special button if I really need it) Honestly, not having them and having to find my own way to do things with the moves I have acces to is fine by me. Only moves done with the special button give 20% less damage, motion inputs still give full scaling. Hell, even the auto combos give full scaling. I may not have access to the most optimal routes but I can still lab what would be optimal for me; just like I did with dj before they nerfed him and took my combo away. Also what is this stigma that modern users never practice, regardless of what control scheme you play, you still need practice to be any good. Damn near 75% of my time is spent in either training or casual matches (which is basically training mode with a human opponent) Once you learn modern you can pick other characters as well. Some of them are pretty bad, but the ones that are usable make this game actually playable for me. Like I said, I wouldn't be here if there wasn't modern. It's still relatively new as well, hopefully with a couple updates it'll got better.
@@Cool30Comics Ikr 😂
@@Picheal43 don’t have anything against modern, it sounded like in the op you were saying you didn’t want to spend the time to practice doing motion inputs for supers main thing I was talking about for the practice aspect, would then assume with that you wouldn’t want to spend the time to do optimal combos with motion input specials but if you are doing that and only using modern for supers I guess that is a thing. Ik you can do traditional inputs with modern but if you use just the modern special button it’s like only the heavy version that comes out and depending on the character and the move can have bad frame data depending on the situation. Also probably have 50% of my time on modern maybe around 70 hours. Came from Mortal Kombat though with 1000’s of hours.
I will say, I was in Japan just a month ago and there were basically no cabinets for SF6 in Arcades - I legit had to hunt for them. Whereas they have a Gundam fighting game where basically every arcade has an entire floor dedicated to it. I find it interesting that the online community for SF6 in Japan seems to be so big while the arcade community was basically non-existent.
Its mad annoying that modern players are just playing different. I now have to learn how to play vs somebody who inputs super in 1 frame and all the motion that makes dp fair are gone. I dont care if its not too strong, its mad annoying. Its their first go at it I guess but i dont love it
im not on twitch chat but im also mad
Was nice to see cash debttroid get owned though
If I'm ever on a stream the chat is cooked cause of Modern 😭
As an 08er who started with SF4/BBCT the only thing I don't like about modern is having to hold R2 for certain normals and how weird it feels and how hard it is on my muscle memory, after GBVSR I'm done doing 623 motions any more than I have to lol
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On the subject of the Chun Modern thing, who do you think is the best "learn real street fighter" modern character?
Thanks to M. Control I can play more with friends and family, before that they could hopefully do a hadoken with luck, not to mention characters like Guile that you need to mantain back.
I feel like ive improved fighting modern players a lot so not too bad only thing id change is make the 1 button supers into a quick mash input or smthn so its not as instant. The other advantaged are strong enough
I think especially for a beginner like myself I find it a good starting point. I want to do classic, once I play it more. Though rn I’m learning guilty gear strive. So once I’m more comfortable with guilty gear I’d want to apply that to street fighter 6
I'll call it "McDonald control" from now on
RE: Modern Chun, I feel like this happens all the time, they're just not making that much progress. I've spent a lot of time getting around gimmicky Classic players in high Platinum, like teleport-happy Sim relying on people who don't know how to crosscut. Scrubby Chuns have been annoying me with cheap losses and from what I understand this goes back to SFV and SFIV too.
How are you getting cheesed by chun?
Modern helped me go from not liking fighting games like that because of the execution to becoming a masters player within year 1 of the game. Eventually I did switch to classic but modern definitely helped me ease into it way more than I would have if the game didn’t have modern
Crazy thing is that those streamers/vtubers are not just only playing for the events like CR cup, they actually are learning how to play the game and grinding. Some even spent over 900 hours for playing SF6 (Akami Karubi for example).
Modern is obviously not the perfect system in the world, but I think it benefits so much more than it damages.