To get that referendum, EVERY PERSON MUST put a submission in to government regards this BILL! Stating you want a REFERENDUM!! That’s the only way OUR voices are going to be heard above the dissent coming from the activists!
Ian how has ACT 'hijacked' the debate?? They forced a debate that gives every new zealander the right to have their say. Thats the opposite of hijacking
Taylor had no argument. It is irrelevant whether the Māori people of 1840 ceded sovereignty by signing the Treaty. Since 1840, sovereignty has been ceded by economic, social and familial relationships. End of discussion. Te Pati Māori's public call for a separate Māori Parliament is divisive, not the Treaty Principles Bill.
Making the point that making a challenge and responding to a challenge is an age-old Maori way and thus they were quite right to do so, ignores the fact this was happening in the Parliamentary Chamber, and there is a way to make your 'challenge' or 'response' as appropriate to the house you have been elected into (and given the privilege to be there representing your voters). This haka was nothing more than a tantrum and deliberate way to derail the legimate parliamentary proceedings... and smacks of the strategy employed by a teenager who thinks they have power but only has this one tool to employ when they don't feel they can get their way.
Ian Taylor has no idea what hes talking about - he's already wrong from his first sentence.. IF maori can't keep with the rules then they should leave parliament. Another guy who wants a 2-tier society - this game he's playing is against all New Zealanders
We are expected to respect Maori protocol on a Marae, so why do Maori not respect protocol in our Parliament ? And the Treaty is in English. Maori at that time had NO written Language. The Maori version was translated by the British with assistance of Maori speakers.
500 chiefs signed the Maori version to keep their CULTURE THEIR TREASURES THEIR LANDS SELF GOVERNANCE... The pakeha version has MAORI CEDING ALL SOVEREIGNTY ... MAORI didn't cede SOVEREIGNTY. Colonialist Smiled and FORGOT IT FOR 129YRS.
@@teawaruaedwards274 It's a capital P for Pakeha..but you know that because you put a capital M for Maori. And you wonder why whitey dislike you lot so much. Dont be such a rude cnut.
Taylor is clueless.. ask him what the sovereignty was that maori did not cede and he can't tell you. He's not a constitutional lawyer and is using an ancient legal term without knowing what that is.
@@alandickie1818 have to disagree re being stagemanaged she had been by her party refused the right of reply on that day so her frustration drove her to automatically voice her challenge. The Haka was Karmatae written by one of Tainui’s greatest fighting chiefs to which she whakapapa’s back to. While deemed inappropriate I do understand where she was coming from.
@@maidaursuladawn44glasgow3According to reporting TPM had speaking rights. If that is so I stand by my perspective. Her actions were immediately supported by a wide number of people in the chamber to a level that raises my concerns further. As well TPM are not a party that has fully supported parliamentary protocol in the past. Please inform me of what reaction would have occurred had an event of this level of disrespect occurred on the marae.
Luxinders weakness and the corrupt media has unfortunatly given less than 1% of the population today, greater coverage than the majority of Kiwi's. Stinks of something and as a voter, i will not forget this. Normal people rely on the political system as their voice and that voice has let a lot of people down over the past week.
Perhaps Taylor has missed the fact that we are having a debate the result of which we'll give you at the next election. Ordinary people are judging the noisy ones just watch.
He is a part Maori (they all are) businessman who is a multimillionaire who made his money in computer graphics - i gather. . He has been knighted, but as this exchange with Plunket shows, he's no mental giant, nor does it appear he understands what the Maori version of the Treaty actually says.
There should never be any race based politics in NZ. Heck there are about as many Asians in NZ as Maori. Should there be an Indian Party or Chinese Party too? NZ politics is a clownshow. Trouble is, if this clownshow keeps going, nobody is going to be laughing.
Put in a submission now, ( open to public ftom today) encourage everyone you know to do so( especially our other races New Zealanders!) demanding you want a REFERENDUM!!
@ if you are on the emailing list for ACT or Hobsons pledge they will send you a link with a pre formatted written letter. So join either of those groups, or go to the government website and find the page for treaty bill submission 👍
I am not racist. I have a large diverse group of friends and family. Having Asia close to us with the global rising average temperatures, with large areas of Asia becoming unproductive and having to relocate millions (to billions?) the treaty and Maori sensibilities and focus on the past are going to be an irrelevancy. NZ and Aussie are destined to be much more Asian culturally and politically than the British colonies that we are in today. Get used to it.
Well done Sean. This guy dissimilates in order to not answer your question. Even governance means the government has the right to govern. You cannot have 2 independent governance structures in one country unless you become like Korea - the socialist 'empire' to the North and the democracy to the South. When you suggest such a division of governance in nz/aoteroa how do you see this working in reality Mr Taylor?
How about Italy and the Vatican? there are actually lots of examples of 'states within states' in history and the world now. Even more are there countries where multiple ethnic groups co-operate to achieve mutual benefit. North and South Korea is a hilarious example because it only exists because of intervention by Europeans.
The reality of 1840 was that Maori had been absolutely decimated in the Musket Wars and were only too pleased to hand over governorship to the Crown because they were offering rule of law and stability. They were also aware the alternative was for the French to invade and take over.
What a frustrating waffler that guy is!! How many ways can you cut a pie?? I would just die of bordom discussing anything with him. I get the impression he would disect everything to death... 🥴. Something's are not that complicated, unless you're him. He'd over complicate the boiling of an egg 🍳
Fun fact. There (maybe) was a Treaty. We had a war that made the treat null and void. This Treaty today is nonsense. Luxon needs to grow a pair and tell Maori to back off. The gravy train has come to its last stop. The country can't afford their bs anymore.
NZ will be arguing this same issue in a hundred years time, not enough in Government are willing to deal with it and two many groups and individuals make money out of it for the issue to be ever finalised.
@@martingray6275that will probably never happen. The Treaty is an agreement with the Crown and that would have to be finalized for a Republic to exist imo.
Is Ian a bit slow? What a waste of time - and his answer is "I don't believe Māori ceded sovereignty". Ian, don't assume that terms weren't DISCUSSED and clarified... they talked about the whole thing for days on end before it was signed!
Everyone needs to put a submission in to the government regards the Bill now that’s it’s open to the public! Putting a submission in is very important !! Don’t be silent now! Let OUR voices finally be heard!!
@3:22 sounds like he's describing the treaty, everyone is allowed to have there say on what that haistly written document means and what the INTENT of that document means and there interpretation of said document,.
How is using the parliamentary process to introduce a bill which includes 6 months select committee period a “hijacking”? These people are out to lunch!
So I looked up Ian Taylor (of whom I'd never heard). Wikipedia says he is "A former television presenter (notably for TVNZ children's programme Spot On (TV Series) and New Zealand's Funniest Home Videos". Hmm, that sounds about right. He seems to think it's fine to have a treaty which says different things depending on who signed it. But he can't admit that. He can't even answer a simple question. What a nitwit.
The population straw man argument is false, it disregards any actions prior which influence the decision. It also disregards Māori intelligence at the time, supposing that due to quantity Māori had the stronger position to barter from, when in fact the opposite is true. if Māori had the stronger position, it would be doubtful they would seek a treaty at all, as what would be the benefit for them.
Ian Taylor has achieved a lot in life, and i have heard him speak sensibly on previous occasions. In this discussion, he seems rather dithering and confused.
It's simplistic Sean, because we should not be asking did the chiefs ceed sovereignty, we should be asking when did they ceed sovereignty. Most (and British) Sovereignty rests upon the private property rights of the king and the lords of the land (Clan chiefs). It is expectations on subjects/tenants, alongside a duty of care and protection, at least in theory. So when can the central government or the king intrude into local government affairs? When can the sovereign intrude into your personal space, the "man's home is his castle" doctrine. It is the answer to these questions that will change the debate on article one.
This is not a "CHALLENGE" and it is not about taking anyone's rights away rather it is about establishing exactly what rights we all have. As an aside it is NOT A "FOUNDING DOCUMENT" - that is completely wrong and shows a lack of understanding on Ian's part. Finally, "yes" Maori have addressed challenges in this manner AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM... these aggressive ways of dealing with disagreement is not in line with CONTEMPORARY CIVILISATION - so - become more civilised - mature, advance, shake off the chains of an archaic culture.
To cover there lack of skill to debate they jump and jump and jump there Haka in there Maori language nobody understands what your saying in government parliament. GET THE POPCORN OUT ITS ON AGAIN IN NZ 🤣
The English final writ is not a version, there were several versions before it but that final one was accepted and meticulously understood by the Treaty Chiefs who spoke English by then, the Te Reo translation is a mirror, to say it is anything else is sacrilege and the Maori mafia rebels have been propagating their lies for decades we have had enough of their fraud. We need to see the final writ which has been hidden in Te Papa museum
Hilarious,Māori went to London to beg with the English to protect them from tribal warfare ,the treaty was the result of that ,nothing to do with sovereignty
I read Ian Taylors opinion on Stuff recently. Interesting I thought his perspective was very articulate. But as with most opinions not really balanced. His recommendation that Te Triti should be the document honoured as it was the one uderstood by Maori, doesnt consider the authors of The Treaty the British understood English and believed in the intent of the English version... and well probably didn't truly understand Te Reo Maori given the inaccuracy of the translation. And Taylors additional point regarding Maori of the time would not have signed away their rights if they understood it. Well my guess us representatives of the British Empire they wouldn't relinquish sovereignty, it would not be in the nature of conquests at that time... see different perspectives on the same topic. Which us why a debate and referendum would be logical.
Ian Taylor struggles to string a coherent sentence together. The Treaty Principals Bill is simple because principals are suppose to be simple.What makes Ian Taylor an authority on this matter ? He hardly presents as any sort of treaty scholar. Referendum for the citizens now.
Since this topic has come up ive started to research nz history between maori and pakeha , And once upon a time maori and pakeha got along for the most part especially when you read about our whaling and missionary era of history. And i had learned about this era in primary school but had what forgotten. And what I found reading was that mordern day is trying to make us to some what (my pov ) believe the maori were dumb and wouldn't have understood the english version, but if they truly looked back in history and read how their ancestors we're very smart , well educated and knew english before the treat of Waitangi was signed . And pakeha and maori respected each other's culture and lived peaceful lives as they could at that time of history. And im not saying they all did on both sides but their were sime that did try.
The English Draft was translated into Te Reo as a sign of respect. If the English wanted to trick the Maori, the Treaty would have been written in English only.
@@judioliver8082because they got made into dinner. Also avoid the infanticide thing, truth hurts, they get hurt feelings. No debate, just like the trans thing. Just screaming, threats, pistol gestures and personal insults. Brownlee, spineless.🤦
Mr Taylor is just being woke (surprise!), there are not two versions of the treaty there is only the Maori version of the treaty as per Hobson's clarification/instruction. If you are going to refer to an English version at all, it should be the one which the Maori version was transcribed from and that would be the Busby/Littlewood treaty draft, which has been established as Busby's draft document of the treaty document dated April 4th 1840 given to Rev. Williams to translate, before the meeting with the Chiefs on the 5th April 1840 and the signing on the 6th April 1840. Do some basic research Mr Taylor, its all there for everyone to see.
I am so cross re the attitude some have re The Bill it takes nothing from anyone no one’s life is going to be changed by any of it. It has unnecessarily become a thing when there is no need. For the life of me it is non constructive and a big fat waste of time. It is just show boating from the Maori Party and leading many very young people along a path we don’t need we have enough real problems to face this is not one of them.
One minute we hear how things are nuanced, the next they're complaining they're too simple. I get the distinct impression they want them complex and confusing so Maori and the lawyers can keep riding that gravy train forever.
Even the Maori version of the treaty is written using the Latin alphabet. Society must and will advance and some value systems if not adaptable may not survive. Equality in rights and privileges may be a starting point
This Ian Taylor is full of his own self importance and his comments cancelled , comments from people like his are a big part of the problem in this country
Well Ian...In tribal European societies it was normal over many century's, that when challenged you formed up in a hoplite phalanx and directly opposed the challenge....should we make that the norm again??? or have we moved passed that??
At the signing there was no sovereign Maori nation, or king. It was tribal warfare. Will this mean every tribe gets to set up their own government according to the Maori version. Sounds like we split up into several nations. I'm joining who ever gets the laser kiwi flag.
I find it crazy how the Maori version says one thing and english version says another...just throw the whole thing away at this point or are we just going to pay reparations for the rest of time that none of us alive today had anything to do with
Lets say, if Pakeha colonial oppressors ( apparently) reacted to a challenge from Maori by simulating loading their muskets, which would of happened before confrontation back before 1840. Would thatt be acceptable?
I doubt that Ian Taylor will be rushing back to the Platform anytime soon. He may be talking rubbish, but that's for him to own, and for us to make up our own minds.
This guy is a joke. That ripping up of a document and haka was disgusting behaviour and it’s not acceptable in parliament. Full stop no excuses. And no but but buts .
This could be the last freedom all New Zealanders have in a democratic country. Devastating not only for journalism, I am sure. Quality requires intelligent application of Te Tiriti into a citizens democratic world view. Currently it is a personal choice and responsibility, irrespective of progress and innovation. This will be the very last freedom New Zealanders will have if it is passed.
Our treaty is absolutely fine for both parties if it wasn’t for the British coming to New Zealand the Māori wloud have Al eaten each other it was the British that helped the Māori people by giving them stuff
Yes AWEFUL stuff cooking pots, knives, blankets , axes ,forced slaves to escape, made them eat SPUDS (instead of captives spare slaves) liberated aweful tasty PIGS , traded silly fish hooks, needles ,horses ,cows, ropes canvas sails & oh yes lovely Tobacco, rum ,pox & sometimes (for a ton of winnowed flax or 6 nice dried tattooed spare heads)& medicine ..yuk also by the way BECOMING "BRITISH CITIZENS!" ....tut tut SUCH MEAN NAUGHTY BAD BAD people. Never never allow people to escape from the STONE AGE!
So the people sailing around the world killing people and taking over their lands and commodifying their resources are the GOOD guys, and just saving everyone. Righto.
The Crown document version is the first and one that Queen Victoria produce.If the Crown version is not kept then we have no Treaty.If we want a civilized nation we have to have the Crown version. Ian Taylor, the Maori culture is not democratic and you can not make it so,the Maori Party behaviour in Parliament and their followers are not democratic.If we don't have democracy,then we have tyranny-there is no in between.
Bolger wasn't allowed to initiate this conversation, Brash was banished into the wild blue yonder for trying it. We are going to have this korero. It's time.
Every time you try and debate with the radicals, they resort to intimidate with a haka/war dance. They had their chance in Wellington today, and once again, resorted to the Haka, yelling.
The maori version ceeds govorning authority to the crown. Its not complicate. Can people please read the treaty. teara.govt.nz/en/te-tiriti-o-waitangi-the-treaty-of-waitangi/print
And I say again. The Treaty is not a valid document and never was. Under contract law it cannot be a valid contract if the two parties have different understandings of the terms of the contract. I would have to do some research to find if that current interpretation was a part of English law at the time of the Treaty.
Any treaty is only valid as long as the participants are prepared to honour its interpretation. It seams now many are not. in this case i can only see a w@r of some sort, because its now about power. Power of the "Chiefs" to manage there own affairs and everyone else's. I read the treaty as the Chiefs can manage their own land and people in what ever way they want on their own land. That they can add to or dispose of 'Their Land" and that the crown has not dominion in this that space. the crown has rights to govern NZ as a whole.
The Chiefs and Governors are dead they said what they said and that's it no=one can add or take away, unfortunately the maoris have tampered with it and added a lot of shit so that's why we need them to be defined and that's all we can do ok it's right to take the corrupt hands of the maori mafia off the Treaty it's an English document and the real final one has not been on display, it is hidden in Te Papa get the bloody document out for the public to see!!
Making the point that making a challenge and responding to a challenge is an age-old Maori way and thus they were quite right to do so, ignores the fact this was happening in the Parliamentary Chamber, and there is a way to make your 'challenge' or 'response' as appropriate to the house you have been elected into (and given the privilege to be there representing your voters). This haka was nothing more than a tantrum and deliberate way to derail the legimate parliamentary proceedings... and smacks of the strategy employed by a teenager who thinks they have power but only has this one tool to employ when they don't feel they can get their way.
Let’s cut to the chase. We need a referendum and Luxon to grow a pair
To get that referendum, EVERY PERSON MUST put a submission in to government regards this BILL!
Stating you want a REFERENDUM!!
That’s the only way OUR voices are going to be heard above the dissent coming from the activists!
@@crazykiwican so funny when you voted him in great strategy we must not forget that awesome move.
@ I agree , but I’m a betting man you didn’t even vote !!
@@crazykiwican and you gamble not a very logical reason to support you comments do you need help
bullshit, why would we let the ignorant decide through a referendum
Ian how has ACT 'hijacked' the debate?? They forced a debate that gives every new zealander the right to have their say. Thats the opposite of hijacking
Ian taylor sounds like a woke fool.😂
always was a twat
Taylor had no argument. It is irrelevant whether the Māori people of 1840 ceded sovereignty by signing the Treaty. Since 1840, sovereignty has been ceded by economic, social and familial relationships. End of discussion. Te Pati Māori's public call for a separate Māori Parliament is divisive, not the Treaty Principles Bill.
So Maori don’t want other Nz to have equal rights
Equal rights is a smoke screen. You don't want to fulfill the obligations of the original treaty?
@@nz_proud Maybe if they stopped thinking they are entitled, constantly with their hands out. No more hand outs no more special treatment.
@@nz_proudthe original treaty is equal rights for ALL New Zealanders!
@@nz_proud Maori ceded sovereignty full-stop!
Exactly!!
We all need to PUT A SUBMISSION in to the GOVERNMENT, stating we want a REFERENDUM!!
Rubbish. The Haka has no place in Parliament.
I saw the video. I think it did.
@@nz_proud Parliament is a debating chamber not a concert hall.
@@nz_proud why ?
Making the point that making a challenge and responding to a challenge is an age-old Maori way and thus they were quite right to do so, ignores the fact this was happening in the Parliamentary Chamber, and there is a way to make your 'challenge' or 'response' as appropriate to the house you have been elected into (and given the privilege to be there representing your voters).
This haka was nothing more than a tantrum and deliberate way to derail the legimate parliamentary proceedings... and smacks of the strategy employed by a teenager who thinks they have power but only has this one tool to employ when they don't feel they can get their way.
Ian Taylor has no idea what hes talking about - he's already wrong from his first sentence..
IF maori can't keep with the rules then they should leave parliament. Another guy who wants a 2-tier society - this game he's playing is against all New Zealanders
So Ian Taylor supoorts the actions in parliament but hasn’t watched the video… sounds legit
We are expected to respect Maori protocol on a Marae, so why do Maori not respect protocol in our Parliament ? And the Treaty is in English. Maori at that time had NO written Language.
The Maori version was translated by the British with assistance of Maori speakers.
I agree, and to be honest thats overlooked. Let alone the fact there wasnt a national language for a start😂
Great comment, I don’t know why this doesn’t get raised more. Ian Taylor going on about the Māori version, most Māori are 90 percent Pakeha!
500 chiefs signed the Maori version to keep their CULTURE THEIR TREASURES THEIR LANDS
SELF GOVERNANCE...
The pakeha version has MAORI CEDING ALL SOVEREIGNTY ...
MAORI didn't cede SOVEREIGNTY.
Colonialist Smiled and FORGOT IT FOR 129YRS.
@@teawaruaedwards274 It's a capital P for Pakeha..but you know that because you put a capital M for Maori. And you wonder why whitey dislike you lot so much. Dont be such a rude cnut.
@@teawaruaedwards274was it 500 chiefs? How many separate tribes were there in nz at the time?
What's the Knighthood for Dithering?.....
Play School, Spot On, and something else. Yacht gifs
If Jacinda can become a Dame 🤷🏻♂️ any fool can get it if they suck the right...
GOSH, HES A DRIBBLER...
That made me laugh...very good!
Ian must have got his knighthood for polishing knobs
This is why we need a clear, open, generous debate. We need to discuss this whole issue in order that we can all follow it.
Hard to get a straight answer from Ian Taylor. Polemical.
1860 at Kohimaramara Conference All Maori Chiefs there not one raised Maori Sovereignty,All accepted the British Monarch had a Sovereignty
Taylor is clueless.. ask him what the sovereignty was that maori did not cede and he can't tell you. He's not a constitutional lawyer and is using an ancient legal term without knowing what that is.
To support the stagemanaged haka in parliament, Ian Taylor has lost credibility from my view point
Mine too!
His comments are consistent, it’s mostly not reported.
@@alandickie1818 have to disagree re being stagemanaged she had been by her party refused the right of reply on that day so her frustration drove her to automatically voice her challenge. The Haka was Karmatae written by one of Tainui’s greatest fighting chiefs to which she whakapapa’s back to. While deemed inappropriate I do understand where she was coming from.
@@maidaursuladawn44glasgow3According to reporting TPM had speaking rights. If that is so I stand by my perspective. Her actions were immediately supported by a wide number of people in the chamber to a level that raises my concerns further. As well TPM are not a party that has fully supported parliamentary protocol in the past.
Please inform me of what reaction would have occurred had an event of this level of disrespect occurred on the marae.
another clown on kick backs we dont need.
Luxinders weakness and the corrupt media has unfortunatly given less than 1% of the population today, greater coverage than the majority of Kiwi's. Stinks of something and as a voter, i will not forget this. Normal people rely on the political system as their voice and that voice has let a lot of people down over the past week.
Perhaps Taylor has missed the fact that we are having a debate the result of which we'll give you at the next election. Ordinary people are judging the noisy ones just watch.
Don’t wait for the election!
Put in a submission 🗳️ NOW!
Demanding a REFERENDUM!!
Our voices must be heard!!
This guy is a bad starting point for equality.
As a Kiwi living in Australia, I ask: who the hell is Ian Taylor?
He is a part Maori (they all are) businessman who is a multimillionaire who made his money in computer graphics - i gather. . He has been knighted, but as this exchange with Plunket shows, he's no mental giant, nor does it appear he understands what the Maori version of the Treaty actually says.
Stop making excuses
Useless speaker talking himself in circles.
To much stutter friend stop going around in a circle.
There should never be any race based politics in NZ. Heck there are about as many Asians in NZ as Maori. Should there be an Indian Party or Chinese Party too? NZ politics is a clownshow. Trouble is, if this clownshow keeps going, nobody is going to be laughing.
Put in a submission now, ( open to public ftom today) encourage everyone you know to do so( especially our other races New Zealanders!) demanding you want a REFERENDUM!!
@@chrisfort5775What is the process to put in a submission ?
@ if you are on the emailing list for ACT or Hobsons pledge they will send you a link with a pre formatted written letter. So join either of those groups, or go to the government website and find the page for treaty bill submission 👍
I am not racist. I have a large diverse group of friends and family. Having Asia close to us with the global rising average temperatures, with large areas of Asia becoming unproductive and having to relocate millions (to billions?) the treaty and Maori sensibilities and focus on the past are going to be an irrelevancy. NZ and Aussie are destined to be much more Asian culturally and politically than the British colonies that we are in today. Get used to it.
He couldn't even string a sentence together
Well done Sean. This guy dissimilates in order to not answer your question. Even governance means the government has the right to govern. You cannot have 2 independent governance structures in one country unless you become like Korea - the socialist 'empire' to the North and the democracy to the South. When you suggest such a division of governance in nz/aoteroa how do you see this working in reality Mr Taylor?
How about Italy and the Vatican? there are actually lots of examples of 'states within states' in history and the world now. Even more are there countries where multiple ethnic groups co-operate to achieve mutual benefit.
North and South Korea is a hilarious example because it only exists because of intervention by Europeans.
Where does continual appeasement lead to. Right here, right now. Where will further appeasement lead?
The reality of 1840 was that Maori had been absolutely decimated in the Musket Wars and were only too pleased to hand over governorship to the Crown because they were offering rule of law and stability. They were also aware the alternative was for the French to invade and take over.
The French, Maori had a choice of coloniser, they chose the crown.
Taylor should stick to Tennis.
Discussing the Treaty is like discussing Covid...
True!!
Good grief this interview was tough going to listen to. He can articulate himself much better in his writing than he can in a live interview format.
2 ticks ACT in 2 year's time. Job done.
ACT TODAY!!
Put in a submission to government ( open to public today) demanding a referendum!!
We cannot let this opportunity go!!
ACT all the way!!
What a frustrating waffler that guy is!! How many ways can you cut a pie?? I would just die of bordom discussing anything with him. I get the impression he would disect everything to death... 🥴. Something's are not that complicated, unless you're him. He'd over complicate the boiling of an egg 🍳
Don’t forget that ACT’s drive to clarify the Principles of the Treaty came off the back of Ardern’s partnership and co-governance agenda
Oh dear, how one can have so much respect for a person who can `draw lines on the water' but be so vague about the present topic.
Fun fact. There (maybe) was a Treaty. We had a war that made the treat null and void. This Treaty today is nonsense. Luxon needs to grow a pair and tell Maori to back off. The gravy train has come to its last stop. The country can't afford their bs anymore.
I don’t think you should actually start talking before you have done good research Ian Taylor
This guy hasn't seen the gun finger gesture He's not very informed. He's running on fee-fees I don’t think he knows what's what.
NZ will be arguing this same issue in a hundred years time, not enough in Government are willing to deal with it and two many groups and individuals make money out of it for the issue to be ever finalised.
Time to move The Republic of NZ conversation forward, I think. That'd solve this issue !
@@martingray6275that will probably never happen. The Treaty is an agreement with the Crown and that would have to be finalized for a Republic to exist imo.
Is Ian a bit slow? What a waste of time - and his answer is "I don't believe Māori ceded sovereignty". Ian, don't assume that terms weren't DISCUSSED and clarified... they talked about the whole thing for days on end before it was signed!
Everyone needs to put a submission in to the government regards the Bill now that’s it’s open to the public!
Putting a submission in is very important !!
Don’t be silent now! Let OUR voices finally be heard!!
@3:22 sounds like he's describing the treaty, everyone is allowed to have there say on what that haistly written document means and what the INTENT of that document means and there interpretation of said document,.
How is using the parliamentary process to introduce a bill which includes 6 months select committee period a “hijacking”? These people are out to lunch!
So I looked up Ian Taylor (of whom I'd never heard). Wikipedia says he is "A former television presenter (notably for TVNZ children's programme Spot On (TV Series) and New Zealand's Funniest Home Videos". Hmm, that sounds about right. He seems to think it's fine to have a treaty which says different things depending on who signed it. But he can't admit that. He can't even answer a simple question. What a nitwit.
The population straw man argument is false, it disregards any actions prior which influence the decision. It also disregards Māori intelligence at the time, supposing that due to quantity Māori had the stronger position to barter from, when in fact the opposite is true. if Māori had the stronger position, it would be doubtful they would seek a treaty at all, as what would be the benefit for them.
Ian Taylor has achieved a lot in life, and i have heard him speak sensibly on previous occasions. In this discussion, he seems rather dithering and confused.
He's way out of his depth in b this one.
It's simplistic Sean, because we should not be asking did the chiefs ceed sovereignty, we should be asking when did they ceed sovereignty. Most (and British) Sovereignty rests upon the private property rights of the king and the lords of the land (Clan chiefs). It is expectations on subjects/tenants, alongside a duty of care and protection, at least in theory. So when can the central government or the king intrude into local government affairs? When can the sovereign intrude into your personal space, the "man's home is his castle" doctrine. It is the answer to these questions that will change the debate on article one.
This is not a "CHALLENGE" and it is not about taking anyone's rights away rather it is about establishing exactly what rights we all have. As an aside it is NOT A "FOUNDING DOCUMENT" - that is completely wrong and shows a lack of understanding on Ian's part. Finally, "yes" Maori have addressed challenges in this manner AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM... these aggressive ways of dealing with disagreement is not in line with CONTEMPORARY CIVILISATION - so - become more civilised - mature, advance, shake off the chains of an archaic culture.
5.3 million people in NZ and many that are overseas never signed any treaty, let us live Equally together and make New Zealand Greater than ever.
Once you’ve been fed on privilege the thought of being treated equally is oppression.
Imagine if the boot was on the other foot....Gees there would be an almighty outcry. What a load of BS from Taylor
They want equality. They just want Maori to be more equal then everyone else 😂
They can't debate when u have no true facts just fantasy and wishfull thinking
Just like the trans thing...
To cover there lack of skill to debate they jump and jump and jump there Haka in there Maori language nobody understands what your saying in government parliament. GET THE POPCORN OUT ITS ON AGAIN IN NZ 🤣
Does Sir Taylor expect us to scrape and bow as he speaks, what a disgrace he is
What version was written first
The English final writ is not a version, there were several versions before it but that final one was accepted and meticulously understood by the Treaty Chiefs who spoke English by then, the Te Reo translation is a mirror, to say it is anything else is sacrilege and the Maori mafia rebels have been propagating their lies for decades we have had enough of their fraud. We need to see the final writ which has been hidden in Te Papa museum
Sean: “Did Maori cede sovereignty to the Crown?”
Ian: “Well, I come from a middle class family …”
Hilarious,Māori went to London to beg with the English to protect them from tribal warfare ,the treaty was the result of that ,nothing to do with sovereignty
I read Ian Taylors opinion on Stuff recently. Interesting I thought his perspective was very articulate. But as with most opinions not really balanced. His recommendation that Te Triti should be the document honoured as it was the one uderstood by Maori, doesnt consider the authors of The Treaty the British understood English and believed in the intent of the English version... and well probably didn't truly understand Te Reo Maori given the inaccuracy of the translation. And Taylors additional point regarding Maori of the time would not have signed away their rights if they understood it. Well my guess us representatives of the British Empire they wouldn't relinquish sovereignty, it would not be in the nature of conquests at that time... see different perspectives on the same topic. Which us why a debate and referendum would be logical.
Ian Taylor struggles to string a coherent sentence together. The Treaty Principals Bill is simple because principals are suppose to be simple.What makes Ian Taylor an authority on this matter ? He hardly presents as any sort of treaty scholar. Referendum for the citizens now.
Since this topic has come up ive started to research nz history between maori and pakeha ,
And once upon a time maori and pakeha got along for the most part especially when you read about our whaling and missionary era of history.
And i had learned about this era in primary school but had what forgotten. And what I found reading was that mordern day is trying to make us to some what (my pov ) believe the maori were dumb and wouldn't have understood the english version, but if they truly looked back in history and read how their ancestors we're very smart , well educated and knew english before the treat of Waitangi was signed .
And pakeha and maori respected each other's culture and lived peaceful lives as they could at that time of history.
And im not saying they all did on both sides but their were sime that did try.
The English Draft was translated into Te Reo as a sign of respect. If the English wanted to trick the Maori, the Treaty would have been written in English only.
@@judioliver8082because they got made into dinner. Also avoid the infanticide thing, truth hurts, they get hurt feelings. No debate, just like the trans thing. Just screaming, threats, pistol gestures and personal insults. Brownlee, spineless.🤦
Well if there is no referendum we will PARTY VOTE ACT next election
Nice to see some editorial balance...
Not much of a Balance when he Quotes numbers that are @50% OUT !!!
Mr Taylor is just being woke (surprise!), there are not two versions of the treaty there is only the Maori version of the treaty as per Hobson's clarification/instruction. If you are going to refer to an English version at all, it should be the one which the Maori version was transcribed from and that would be the Busby/Littlewood treaty draft, which has been established as Busby's draft document of the treaty document dated April 4th 1840 given to Rev. Williams to translate, before the meeting with the Chiefs on the 5th April 1840 and the signing on the 6th April 1840. Do some basic research Mr Taylor, its all there for everyone to see.
O man this was a hard listen, ... I'm starting to think too many chiefs not enough scouts !
I am so cross re the attitude some have re The Bill it takes nothing from anyone no one’s life is going to be changed by any of it. It has unnecessarily become a thing when there is no need. For the life of me it is non constructive and a big fat waste of time. It is just show boating from the Maori Party and leading many very young people along a path we don’t need we have enough real problems to face this is not one of them.
Put your submission for a referendum in today ✅✅👍👍 it’s open as of now, we cannot loose this opportunity to have our voices heard!
One minute we hear how things are nuanced, the next they're complaining they're too simple. I get the distinct impression they want them complex and confusing so Maori and the lawyers can keep riding that gravy train forever.
Gibber gabber 😂
Nice guy, but in a referendum he’s only one vote. Let the people decide who don’t have a microphone but able to think for themselves.
Ian your making it up as you speak and that's why your stammering, talking in circles and tripping over your own tongue.
Even the Maori version of the treaty is written using the Latin alphabet. Society must and will advance and some value systems if not adaptable may not survive. Equality in rights and privileges may be a starting point
Didn't the British draft the maori version so why would they said it a partnership ,
This Ian Taylor is full of his own self importance and his comments cancelled , comments from people like his are a big part of the problem in this country
Why do these people not understand or pretend to not understand EQUALITY despite race....FFS!!!
Well Ian...In tribal European societies it was normal over many century's, that when challenged you formed up in a hoplite phalanx and directly opposed the challenge....should we make that the norm again??? or have we moved passed that??
Careful, you might shatter his well cultivated image of the noble savage utopia ruined by evil Christian Europeans.
That guy hasn't a clue .
At the signing there was no sovereign Maori nation, or king. It was tribal warfare. Will this mean every tribe gets to set up their own government according to the Maori version. Sounds like we split up into several nations.
I'm joining who ever gets the laser kiwi flag.
Well, that was a disappointing interview… why is no one against this bill able to articulate why?…
Mr. Taylor's argument here is yet another reason to scrap the Treaty.
I find it crazy how the Maori version says one thing and english version says another...just throw the whole thing away at this point or are we just going to pay reparations for the rest of time that none of us alive today had anything to do with
Get this guy OFF he’s got nothing to say
Lets say, if Pakeha colonial oppressors ( apparently) reacted to a challenge from Maori by simulating loading their muskets, which would of happened before confrontation back before 1840.
Would thatt be acceptable?
We should start dressing like British troops
This was fun, Sean! Thanks
Sorry Ian taylor you just lost any respect that I had for you
Never mind thats what happens when you defind that behavior
The excuse making on behalf of maori is the bigotry of low expectations. It was a debate in parliament, save the hakas for the marae
If the 'maori side' is anything like the disgusting circus we witnessed in our house of representatives, then there is no possibility of any debate.
I doubt that Ian Taylor will be rushing back to the Platform anytime soon. He may be talking rubbish, but that's for him to own, and for us to make up our own minds.
This guy is a joke. That ripping up of a document and haka was disgusting behaviour and it’s not acceptable in parliament. Full stop no excuses. And no but but buts .
This could be the last freedom all New Zealanders have in a democratic country. Devastating not only for journalism, I am sure. Quality requires intelligent application of Te Tiriti into a citizens democratic world view. Currently it is a personal choice and responsibility, irrespective of progress and innovation. This will be the very last freedom New Zealanders will have if it is passed.
Sir Ian was right into the ardern covid response and he loves her.
Our treaty is absolutely fine for both parties if it wasn’t for the British coming to New Zealand the Māori wloud have Al eaten each other it was the British that helped the Māori people by giving them stuff
Ha the British wiped a lot of us out with them bringing us the virus the common cold.
David Crymore only saying equality for all is bull sht
Yes AWEFUL stuff cooking pots, knives, blankets , axes ,forced slaves to escape, made them eat SPUDS (instead of captives spare slaves) liberated aweful tasty PIGS , traded silly fish hooks, needles ,horses ,cows, ropes canvas sails & oh yes lovely Tobacco, rum ,pox & sometimes (for a ton of winnowed flax or 6 nice dried tattooed spare heads)& medicine ..yuk also by the way BECOMING "BRITISH CITIZENS!" ....tut tut SUCH MEAN NAUGHTY BAD BAD people. Never never allow people to escape from the STONE AGE!
The treaty is broken when one race of people have privilege over others..
So the people sailing around the world killing people and taking over their lands and commodifying their resources are the GOOD guys, and just saving everyone. Righto.
The Crown document version is the first and one that Queen Victoria produce.If the Crown version
is not kept then we have no Treaty.If we want a civilized nation we have to have the Crown version.
Ian Taylor, the Maori culture is not democratic and you can not make it so,the Maori Party behaviour in Parliament and their followers are not democratic.If we don't have democracy,then we have
tyranny-there is no in between.
Bolger wasn't allowed to initiate this conversation, Brash was banished into the wild blue yonder for trying it. We are going to have this korero. It's time.
Every time you try and debate with the radicals, they resort to intimidate with a haka/war dance. They had their chance in Wellington today, and once again, resorted to the Haka, yelling.
These was no difference in interpretation Taylor, read the Kohimaramara meeting minutes and resolution No 1 if you are in ANY doubt.
And make sure you realise that over 200 Chiefs who signed the Treaty made that resolution unanimously.
Or Sir Aparana Ngatai’s translation from around 100 years ago. It also explains how the Maori version states that too.
The maori version ceeds govorning authority to the crown. Its not complicate.
Can people please read the treaty.
teara.govt.nz/en/te-tiriti-o-waitangi-the-treaty-of-waitangi/print
@@brianmarshall1762and so does TE Young's translation of about five decades earlier. Taylor needs to do some research.
Is Ian Taylor Kamala Harris's speech writer?
Ian Taylor is one very lost and mixed up puppy.
And I say again. The Treaty is not a valid document and never was. Under contract law it cannot be a valid contract if the two parties have different understandings of the terms of the contract. I would have to do some research to find if that current interpretation was a part of English law at the time of the Treaty.
If Maori say it's a contract then they shot themselves in the foot because neither of them mention Maori.
Any treaty is only valid as long as the participants are prepared to honour its interpretation.
It seams now many are not. in this case i can only see a w@r of some sort, because its now about power. Power of the "Chiefs" to manage there own affairs and everyone else's.
I read the treaty as the Chiefs can manage their own land and people in what ever way they want on their own land. That they can add to or dispose of 'Their Land" and that the crown has not dominion in this that space. the crown has rights to govern NZ as a whole.
The Chiefs and Governors are dead they said what they said and that's it no=one can add or take away, unfortunately the maoris have tampered with it and added a lot of shit so that's why we need them to be defined and that's all we can do ok it's right to take the corrupt hands of the maori mafia off the Treaty it's an English document and the real final one has not been on display, it is hidden in Te Papa get the bloody document out for the public to see!!
Making the point that making a challenge and responding to a challenge is an age-old Maori way and thus they were quite right to do so, ignores the fact this was happening in the Parliamentary Chamber, and there is a way to make your 'challenge' or 'response' as appropriate to the house you have been elected into (and given the privilege to be there representing your voters).
This haka was nothing more than a tantrum and deliberate way to derail the legimate parliamentary proceedings... and smacks of the strategy employed by a teenager who thinks they have power but only has this one tool to employ when they don't feel they can get their way.
Part of their tactic they teach their people is to disturb as much as possible
Māoris I so canning
has this guy worked for the govt he has no idea what he's talking about
Taylors lost