To get that referendum, EVERY PERSON MUST put a submission in to government regards this BILL! Stating you want a REFERENDUM!! That’s the only way OUR voices are going to be heard above the dissent coming from the activists!
Ian Taylor has no idea what hes talking about - he's already wrong from his first sentence.. IF maori can't keep with the rules then they should leave parliament. Another guy who wants a 2-tier society - this game he's playing is against all New Zealanders
Ian how has ACT 'hijacked' the debate?? They forced a debate that gives every new zealander the right to have their say. Thats the opposite of hijacking
Taylor had no argument. It is irrelevant whether the Māori people of 1840 ceded sovereignty by signing the Treaty. Since 1840, sovereignty has been ceded by economic, social and familial relationships. End of discussion. Te Pati Māori's public call for a separate Māori Parliament is divisive, not the Treaty Principles Bill.
This is what seems to be coming clear to us non Maori. Maori do not want us to have equal rights. I am so surprised and saddened to hear that and that does seem to be what they're saying. For all of my life I thought we were in equal partnership and working toward the purpose of win/win for all parties. This will take some digesting.
Taylor is clueless.. ask him what the sovereignty was that maori did not cede and he can't tell you. He's not a constitutional lawyer and is using an ancient legal term without knowing what that is.
We are expected to respect Maori protocol on a Marae, so why do Maori not respect protocol in our Parliament ? And the Treaty is in English. Maori at that time had NO written Language. The Maori version was translated by the British with assistance of Maori speakers.
500 chiefs signed the Maori version to keep their CULTURE THEIR TREASURES THEIR LANDS SELF GOVERNANCE... The pakeha version has MAORI CEDING ALL SOVEREIGNTY ... MAORI didn't cede SOVEREIGNTY. Colonialist Smiled and FORGOT IT FOR 129YRS.
@@teawaruaedwards274 It's a capital P for Pakeha..but you know that because you put a capital M for Maori. And you wonder why whitey dislike you lot so much. Dont be such a rude cnut.
@@alandickie1818 have to disagree re being stagemanaged she had been by her party refused the right of reply on that day so her frustration drove her to automatically voice her challenge. The Haka was Karmatae written by one of Tainui’s greatest fighting chiefs to which she whakapapa’s back to. While deemed inappropriate I do understand where she was coming from.
@@maidaursuladawn44glasgow3According to reporting TPM had speaking rights. If that is so I stand by my perspective. Her actions were immediately supported by a wide number of people in the chamber to a level that raises my concerns further. As well TPM are not a party that has fully supported parliamentary protocol in the past. Please inform me of what reaction would have occurred had an event of this level of disrespect occurred on the marae.
Well done Sean. This guy dissimilates in order to not answer your question. Even governance means the government has the right to govern. You cannot have 2 independent governance structures in one country unless you become like Korea - the socialist 'empire' to the North and the democracy to the South. When you suggest such a division of governance in nz/aoteroa how do you see this working in reality Mr Taylor?
How about Italy and the Vatican? there are actually lots of examples of 'states within states' in history and the world now. Even more are there countries where multiple ethnic groups co-operate to achieve mutual benefit. North and South Korea is a hilarious example because it only exists because of intervention by Europeans.
Perhaps Taylor has missed the fact that we are having a debate the result of which we'll give you at the next election. Ordinary people are judging the noisy ones just watch.
Luxinders weakness and the corrupt media has unfortunatly given less than 1% of the population today, greater coverage than the majority of Kiwi's. Stinks of something and as a voter, i will not forget this. Normal people rely on the political system as their voice and that voice has let a lot of people down over the past week.
He is a part Maori (they all are) businessman who is a multimillionaire who made his money in computer graphics - i gather. . He has been knighted, but as this exchange with Plunket shows, he's no mental giant, nor does it appear he understands what the Maori version of the Treaty actually says.
There should never be any race based politics in NZ. Heck there are about as many Asians in NZ as Maori. Should there be an Indian Party or Chinese Party too? NZ politics is a clownshow. Trouble is, if this clownshow keeps going, nobody is going to be laughing.
Put in a submission now, ( open to public ftom today) encourage everyone you know to do so( especially our other races New Zealanders!) demanding you want a REFERENDUM!!
@ if you are on the emailing list for ACT or Hobsons pledge they will send you a link with a pre formatted written letter. So join either of those groups, or go to the government website and find the page for treaty bill submission 👍
What a frustrating waffler that guy is!! How many ways can you cut a pie?? I would just die of bordom discussing anything with him. I get the impression he would disect everything to death... 🥴. Something's are not that complicated, unless you're him. He'd over complicate the boiling of an egg 🍳
The population straw man argument is false, it disregards any actions prior which influence the decision. It also disregards Māori intelligence at the time, supposing that due to quantity Māori had the stronger position to barter from, when in fact the opposite is true. if Māori had the stronger position, it would be doubtful they would seek a treaty at all, as what would be the benefit for them.
Is Ian a bit slow? What a waste of time - and his answer is "I don't believe Māori ceded sovereignty". Ian, don't assume that terms weren't DISCUSSED and clarified... they talked about the whole thing for days on end before it was signed!
NZ will be arguing this same issue in a hundred years time, not enough in Government are willing to deal with it and two many groups and individuals make money out of it for the issue to be ever finalised.
Everyone needs to put a submission in to the government regards the Bill now that’s it’s open to the public! Putting a submission in is very important !! Don’t be silent now! Let OUR voices finally be heard!!
The reality of 1840 was that Maori had been absolutely decimated in the Musket Wars and were only too pleased to hand over governorship to the Crown because they were offering rule of law and stability. They were also aware the alternative was for the French to invade and take over.
Ian Taylor has achieved a lot in life, and i have heard him speak sensibly on previous occasions. In this discussion, he seems rather dithering and confused.
I am so cross re the attitude some have re The Bill it takes nothing from anyone no one’s life is going to be changed by any of it. It has unnecessarily become a thing when there is no need. For the life of me it is non constructive and a big fat waste of time. It is just show boating from the Maori Party and leading many very young people along a path we don’t need we have enough real problems to face this is not one of them.
So I looked up Ian Taylor (of whom I'd never heard). Wikipedia says he is "A former television presenter (notably for TVNZ children's programme Spot On (TV Series) and New Zealand's Funniest Home Videos". Hmm, that sounds about right. He seems to think it's fine to have a treaty which says different things depending on who signed it. But he can't admit that. He can't even answer a simple question. What a nitwit.
At the signing there was no sovereign Maori nation, or king. It was tribal warfare. Will this mean every tribe gets to set up their own government according to the Maori version. Sounds like we split up into several nations. I'm joining who ever gets the laser kiwi flag.
Fun fact. There (maybe) was a Treaty. We had a war that made the treat null and void. This Treaty today is nonsense. Luxon needs to grow a pair and tell Maori to back off. The gravy train has come to its last stop. The country can't afford their bs anymore.
Mr Taylor is just being woke (surprise!), there are not two versions of the treaty there is only the Maori version of the treaty as per Hobson's clarification/instruction. If you are going to refer to an English version at all, it should be the one which the Maori version was transcribed from and that would be the Busby/Littlewood treaty draft, which has been established as Busby's draft document of the treaty document dated April 4th 1840 given to Rev. Williams to translate, before the meeting with the Chiefs on the 5th April 1840 and the signing on the 6th April 1840. Do some basic research Mr Taylor, its all there for everyone to see.
This is not a "CHALLENGE" and it is not about taking anyone's rights away rather it is about establishing exactly what rights we all have. As an aside it is NOT A "FOUNDING DOCUMENT" - that is completely wrong and shows a lack of understanding on Ian's part. Finally, "yes" Maori have addressed challenges in this manner AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM... these aggressive ways of dealing with disagreement is not in line with CONTEMPORARY CIVILISATION - so - become more civilised - mature, advance, shake off the chains of an archaic culture.
Ian Taylor struggles to string a coherent sentence together. The Treaty Principals Bill is simple because principals are suppose to be simple.What makes Ian Taylor an authority on this matter ? He hardly presents as any sort of treaty scholar. Referendum for the citizens now.
The Crown document version is the first and one that Queen Victoria produce.If the Crown version is not kept then we have no Treaty.If we want a civilized nation we have to have the Crown version. Ian Taylor, the Maori culture is not democratic and you can not make it so,the Maori Party behaviour in Parliament and their followers are not democratic.If we don't have democracy,then we have tyranny-there is no in between.
Well Ian...In tribal European societies it was normal over many century's, that when challenged you formed up in a hoplite phalanx and directly opposed the challenge....should we make that the norm again??? or have we moved passed that??
Since this topic has come up ive started to research nz history between maori and pakeha , And once upon a time maori and pakeha got along for the most part especially when you read about our whaling and missionary era of history. And i had learned about this era in primary school but had what forgotten. And what I found reading was that mordern day is trying to make us to some what (my pov ) believe the maori were dumb and wouldn't have understood the english version, but if they truly looked back in history and read how their ancestors we're very smart , well educated and knew english before the treat of Waitangi was signed . And pakeha and maori respected each other's culture and lived peaceful lives as they could at that time of history. And im not saying they all did on both sides but their were sime that did try.
Yes. It's my understanding that Maori of the time of signing the treaty were very smart cookies. They knew their stuff. I hate that it's put about that they were dumb. Also, what about the people here before them ? Why can't we talk about them ?
The English Draft was translated into Te Reo as a sign of respect. If the English wanted to trick the Maori, the Treaty would have been written in English only.
@@judioliver8082because they got made into dinner. Also avoid the infanticide thing, truth hurts, they get hurt feelings. No debate, just like the trans thing. Just screaming, threats, pistol gestures and personal insults. Brownlee, spineless.🤦
I doubt that Ian Taylor will be rushing back to the Platform anytime soon. He may be talking rubbish, but that's for him to own, and for us to make up our own minds.
Lets say, if Pakeha colonial oppressors ( apparently) reacted to a challenge from Maori by simulating loading their muskets, which would of happened before confrontation back before 1840. Would thatt be acceptable?
I find it crazy how the Maori version says one thing and english version says another...just throw the whole thing away at this point or are we just going to pay reparations for the rest of time that none of us alive today had anything to do with
I read Ian Taylors opinion on Stuff recently. Interesting I thought his perspective was very articulate. But as with most opinions not really balanced. His recommendation that Te Triti should be the document honoured as it was the one uderstood by Maori, doesnt consider the authors of The Treaty the British understood English and believed in the intent of the English version... and well probably didn't truly understand Te Reo Maori given the inaccuracy of the translation. And Taylors additional point regarding Maori of the time would not have signed away their rights if they understood it. Well my guess us representatives of the British Empire they wouldn't relinquish sovereignty, it would not be in the nature of conquests at that time... see different perspectives on the same topic. Which us why a debate and referendum would be logical.
This Ian Taylor is full of his own self importance and his comments cancelled , comments from people like his are a big part of the problem in this country
The maori version ceeds govorning authority to the crown. Its not complicate. Can people please read the treaty. teara.govt.nz/en/te-tiriti-o-waitangi-the-treaty-of-waitangi/print
What is wrong with maori selling land? If you have members that rarely visit their land or nowadays do not even live in nz sometimes snd could do with money why not sell it?
Bolger wasn't allowed to initiate this conversation, Brash was banished into the wild blue yonder for trying it. We are going to have this korero. It's time.
Our treaty is absolutely fine for both parties if it wasn’t for the British coming to New Zealand the Māori wloud have Al eaten each other it was the British that helped the Māori people by giving them stuff
Yes AWEFUL stuff cooking pots, knives, blankets , axes ,forced slaves to escape, made them eat SPUDS (instead of captives spare slaves) liberated aweful tasty PIGS , traded silly fish hooks, needles ,horses ,cows, ropes canvas sails & oh yes lovely Tobacco, rum ,pox & sometimes (for a ton of winnowed flax or 6 nice dried tattooed spare heads)& medicine ..yuk also by the way BECOMING "BRITISH CITIZENS!" ....tut tut SUCH MEAN NAUGHTY BAD BAD people. Never never allow people to escape from the STONE AGE!
Every time you try and debate with the radicals, they resort to intimidate with a haka/war dance. They had their chance in Wellington today, and once again, resorted to the Haka, yelling.
Do some research before you try to deceive Taylor, read who Tāmati Wāka Nene was on Wikipedia [that is how famous he was], then read what is written on his memorial stone IN ENGLISH AND in MAORI both on Wikipedia too [that is how famous he was]. Then tell me why you should be called Sir. And Ardern Dame...? I am waiting for your apology to the people of New Zealand, and an assurance you will do your homework properly before spouting forth again, after all it is what we expect from a Knight, and rightly so. Go on I DARE YOU TO!!!! Correct your misinformation TODAY - ON HERE.....
It's simplistic Sean, because we should not be asking did the chiefs ceed sovereignty, we should be asking when did they ceed sovereignty. Most (and British) Sovereignty rests upon the private property rights of the king and the lords of the land (Clan chiefs). It is expectations on subjects/tenants, alongside a duty of care and protection, at least in theory. So when can the central government or the king intrude into local government affairs? When can the sovereign intrude into your personal space, the "man's home is his castle" doctrine. It is the answer to these questions that will change the debate on article one.
How is using the parliamentary process to introduce a bill which includes 6 months select committee period a “hijacking”? These people are out to lunch!
The thought you've expressed reflects the deep pain and frustration of Indigenous peoples, including Māori in New Zealand, regarding the effects of colonization. Many Indigenous communities experienced significant harm as settlers sought control of land and resources, often disregarding the sovereignty, rights, and humanity of the original inhabitants.
IAN , absolutely Correct ! It has to all stop , There must be absolute Definition Once and for ALL !😛😛😛 The representatives in parlia - ment represent those that ekected them , NOT ALL of Maoridom 😛😛😛🤨😠😡 Regardless : ALL of New Zealand Has Now Been ASKED TO VOTE for a Referendum on the BILL ! So pre discussion is NOW OVER !!!😛😛😛
The treaty says the Moari cede sovereignty. The treaty says also in Article 2 The Queen of England agrees to protect the Chiefs, the subtribes and all the people of New Zealand in the unqualified exercise of their chieftainship over their lands, villages and all their treasures. But on the other hand the Chiefs of the Confederation and all the chiefs will sell land to the Queen at a price agreed to by the person owning it and by the person buying it (the latter being) appointed by the Queen as her purchase agent.
Sir Ian Taylor is the founder and managing director of Animation Research. ( FROM STUFF ARTICLE ) OPINION: On three occasions over the past few weeks, I have witnessed the powerful resonance of the haka on the international stage. In Barcelona, Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei performed a stirring haka to send off Emirates Team New Zealand each morning as they prepared to take on the challenge of Ineos Team Britannia. Their performance echoed across the harbour to the delight of the thousands who had gathered to witness the scene. Te Kara, Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei’s waka, leading Taihoro-the kiwi-designed flying machine-out of the Team New Zealand base to do battle on the waters of the Mediterranean. Last week, a different haka went viral, amassing nearly three million views worldwide. It featured students from Flaxmere College in Hastings paying tribute to their dux, Naomi Sai, an immigrant from the Philippines who arrived in Aotearoa just last year. Her message to the millions who watched was simple and moving: “Thank you so much, New Zealanders, for this opportunity! It’s truly a privilege to experience the culture of New Zealanders, especially the kapa haka (sic) from Māori culture.”
Hana Clarkes daddy is the owner of Taniwha media. That's why it went viral in my opinion. Not because she's super spiritual or any such nonsense but because they set it up to do exactly that. I think it will backfire on them. People overseas now think we're all a bunch of fools.
Ian Taylor demonstrates how difficult it is for prominent people to discuss and debate constitutional matters. He's confused on fundamentals, facts, manner of engagement. The "versions of the Treaty" is the biggest red herring and a distraction. After the establishment of settled government, the colonial and then dominion government were guided by the Constitution Act 1852, not directly by the Treaty. The Treaty had done its job. It's in the text: sovereign, resources, local authority, rights of subjects.
Please Shawn, I'd rather hear a discussion. It's the black and white - he's right and the other is wrong- isn't the total issue. Surely, the issue needs to be discussed as brethren listening rather than as opponents in a court. Even if one wins the argument based on the treaty and facts etc how will the 'looser' handle it. We need to resolve this as brethren.( I'm not expressing this well I know.) There is so much offense whether real or perceived and to be shown to be wrong the person needs love and a way of esteem and a humility given by the 'victor'. Will we have a nation of brothers with mutual hope at the end of all this. That concerns me. And I know there a provocateurs in all this.
Even the Maori version of the treaty is written using the Latin alphabet. Society must and will advance and some value systems if not adaptable may not survive. Equality in rights and privileges may be a starting point
Let’s cut to the chase. We need a referendum and Luxon to grow a pair
To get that referendum, EVERY PERSON MUST put a submission in to government regards this BILL!
Stating you want a REFERENDUM!!
That’s the only way OUR voices are going to be heard above the dissent coming from the activists!
@@crazykiwican so funny when you voted him in great strategy we must not forget that awesome move.
@ I agree , but I’m a betting man you didn’t even vote !!
@@crazykiwican and you gamble not a very logical reason to support you comments do you need help
bullshit, why would we let the ignorant decide through a referendum
Ian Taylor has no idea what hes talking about - he's already wrong from his first sentence..
IF maori can't keep with the rules then they should leave parliament. Another guy who wants a 2-tier society - this game he's playing is against all New Zealanders
Ian how has ACT 'hijacked' the debate?? They forced a debate that gives every new zealander the right to have their say. Thats the opposite of hijacking
So Ian Taylor supoorts the actions in parliament but hasn’t watched the video… sounds legit
Hard to get a straight answer from Ian Taylor. Polemical.
Ian taylor sounds like a woke fool.😂
always was a twat
Taylor had no argument. It is irrelevant whether the Māori people of 1840 ceded sovereignty by signing the Treaty. Since 1840, sovereignty has been ceded by economic, social and familial relationships. End of discussion. Te Pati Māori's public call for a separate Māori Parliament is divisive, not the Treaty Principles Bill.
This guy is a bad starting point for equality.
another clown on kick backs we dont need.
This is why we need a clear, open, generous debate. We need to discuss this whole issue in order that we can all follow it.
Useless speaker talking himself in circles.
So Maori don’t want other Nz to have equal rights
Equal rights is a smoke screen. You don't want to fulfill the obligations of the original treaty?
This is what seems to be coming clear to us non Maori. Maori do not want us to have equal rights. I am so surprised and saddened to hear that and that does seem to be what they're saying. For all of my life I thought we were in equal partnership and working toward the purpose of win/win for all parties. This will take some digesting.
@@nz_proud Maybe if they stopped thinking they are entitled, constantly with their hands out. No more hand outs no more special treatment.
@@nz_proudthe original treaty is equal rights for ALL New Zealanders!
@@nz_proud Maori ceded sovereignty full-stop!
Stop making excuses
1860 at Kohimaramara Conference All Maori Chiefs there not one raised Maori Sovereignty,All accepted the British Monarch had a Sovereignty
Taylor is clueless.. ask him what the sovereignty was that maori did not cede and he can't tell you. He's not a constitutional lawyer and is using an ancient legal term without knowing what that is.
What's the Knighthood for Dithering?.....
Play School, Spot On, and something else. Yacht gifs
If Jacinda can become a Dame 🤷🏻♂️ any fool can get it if they suck the right...
GOSH, HES A DRIBBLER...
That made me laugh...very good!
Ian must have got his knighthood for polishing knobs
We are expected to respect Maori protocol on a Marae, so why do Maori not respect protocol in our Parliament ? And the Treaty is in English. Maori at that time had NO written Language.
The Maori version was translated by the British with assistance of Maori speakers.
I agree, and to be honest thats overlooked. Let alone the fact there wasnt a national language for a start😂
Great comment, I don’t know why this doesn’t get raised more. Ian Taylor going on about the Māori version, most Māori are 90 percent Pakeha!
500 chiefs signed the Maori version to keep their CULTURE THEIR TREASURES THEIR LANDS
SELF GOVERNANCE...
The pakeha version has MAORI CEDING ALL SOVEREIGNTY ...
MAORI didn't cede SOVEREIGNTY.
Colonialist Smiled and FORGOT IT FOR 129YRS.
@@teawaruaedwards274 It's a capital P for Pakeha..but you know that because you put a capital M for Maori. And you wonder why whitey dislike you lot so much. Dont be such a rude cnut.
@@teawaruaedwards274was it 500 chiefs? How many separate tribes were there in nz at the time?
To support the stagemanaged haka in parliament, Ian Taylor has lost credibility from my view point
Mine too!
His comments are consistent, it’s mostly not reported.
@@alandickie1818 have to disagree re being stagemanaged she had been by her party refused the right of reply on that day so her frustration drove her to automatically voice her challenge. The Haka was Karmatae written by one of Tainui’s greatest fighting chiefs to which she whakapapa’s back to. While deemed inappropriate I do understand where she was coming from.
@@maidaursuladawn44glasgow3According to reporting TPM had speaking rights. If that is so I stand by my perspective. Her actions were immediately supported by a wide number of people in the chamber to a level that raises my concerns further. As well TPM are not a party that has fully supported parliamentary protocol in the past.
Please inform me of what reaction would have occurred had an event of this level of disrespect occurred on the marae.
Well done Sean. This guy dissimilates in order to not answer your question. Even governance means the government has the right to govern. You cannot have 2 independent governance structures in one country unless you become like Korea - the socialist 'empire' to the North and the democracy to the South. When you suggest such a division of governance in nz/aoteroa how do you see this working in reality Mr Taylor?
How about Italy and the Vatican? there are actually lots of examples of 'states within states' in history and the world now. Even more are there countries where multiple ethnic groups co-operate to achieve mutual benefit.
North and South Korea is a hilarious example because it only exists because of intervention by Europeans.
Perhaps Taylor has missed the fact that we are having a debate the result of which we'll give you at the next election. Ordinary people are judging the noisy ones just watch.
Don’t wait for the election!
Put in a submission 🗳️ NOW!
Demanding a REFERENDUM!!
Our voices must be heard!!
Taylor should stick to Tennis.
Luxinders weakness and the corrupt media has unfortunatly given less than 1% of the population today, greater coverage than the majority of Kiwi's. Stinks of something and as a voter, i will not forget this. Normal people rely on the political system as their voice and that voice has let a lot of people down over the past week.
As a Kiwi living in Australia, I ask: who the hell is Ian Taylor?
He is a part Maori (they all are) businessman who is a multimillionaire who made his money in computer graphics - i gather. . He has been knighted, but as this exchange with Plunket shows, he's no mental giant, nor does it appear he understands what the Maori version of the Treaty actually says.
Rubbish. The Haka has no place in Parliament.
I saw the video. I think it did.
@@nz_proud Parliament is a debating chamber not a concert hall.
Where does continual appeasement lead to. Right here, right now. Where will further appeasement lead?
There should never be any race based politics in NZ. Heck there are about as many Asians in NZ as Maori. Should there be an Indian Party or Chinese Party too? NZ politics is a clownshow. Trouble is, if this clownshow keeps going, nobody is going to be laughing.
Put in a submission now, ( open to public ftom today) encourage everyone you know to do so( especially our other races New Zealanders!) demanding you want a REFERENDUM!!
@@chrisfort5775What is the process to put in a submission ?
@ if you are on the emailing list for ACT or Hobsons pledge they will send you a link with a pre formatted written letter. So join either of those groups, or go to the government website and find the page for treaty bill submission 👍
This guy hasn't seen the gun finger gesture He's not very informed. He's running on fee-fees I don’t think he knows what's what.
What a frustrating waffler that guy is!! How many ways can you cut a pie?? I would just die of bordom discussing anything with him. I get the impression he would disect everything to death... 🥴. Something's are not that complicated, unless you're him. He'd over complicate the boiling of an egg 🍳
The population straw man argument is false, it disregards any actions prior which influence the decision. It also disregards Māori intelligence at the time, supposing that due to quantity Māori had the stronger position to barter from, when in fact the opposite is true. if Māori had the stronger position, it would be doubtful they would seek a treaty at all, as what would be the benefit for them.
He couldn't even string a sentence together
2 ticks ACT in 2 year's time. Job done.
ACT TODAY!!
Put in a submission to government ( open to public today) demanding a referendum!!
We cannot let this opportunity go!!
ACT all the way!!
Oh dear, how one can have so much respect for a person who can `draw lines on the water' but be so vague about the present topic.
I don’t think you should actually start talking before you have done good research Ian Taylor
They can't debate
Just like the trans thing...
Is Ian a bit slow? What a waste of time - and his answer is "I don't believe Māori ceded sovereignty". Ian, don't assume that terms weren't DISCUSSED and clarified... they talked about the whole thing for days on end before it was signed!
Discussing the Treaty is like discussing Covid...
True!!
Good grief this interview was tough going to listen to. He can articulate himself much better in his writing than he can in a live interview format.
NZ will be arguing this same issue in a hundred years time, not enough in Government are willing to deal with it and two many groups and individuals make money out of it for the issue to be ever finalised.
Everyone needs to put a submission in to the government regards the Bill now that’s it’s open to the public!
Putting a submission in is very important !!
Don’t be silent now! Let OUR voices finally be heard!!
The reality of 1840 was that Maori had been absolutely decimated in the Musket Wars and were only too pleased to hand over governorship to the Crown because they were offering rule of law and stability. They were also aware the alternative was for the French to invade and take over.
The French, Maori had a choice of coloniser, they chose the crown.
Ian Taylor has achieved a lot in life, and i have heard him speak sensibly on previous occasions. In this discussion, he seems rather dithering and confused.
He's way out of his depth in b this one.
I am so cross re the attitude some have re The Bill it takes nothing from anyone no one’s life is going to be changed by any of it. It has unnecessarily become a thing when there is no need. For the life of me it is non constructive and a big fat waste of time. It is just show boating from the Maori Party and leading many very young people along a path we don’t need we have enough real problems to face this is not one of them.
Put your submission for a referendum in today ✅✅👍👍 it’s open as of now, we cannot loose this opportunity to have our voices heard!
So I looked up Ian Taylor (of whom I'd never heard). Wikipedia says he is "A former television presenter (notably for TVNZ children's programme Spot On (TV Series) and New Zealand's Funniest Home Videos". Hmm, that sounds about right. He seems to think it's fine to have a treaty which says different things depending on who signed it. But he can't admit that. He can't even answer a simple question. What a nitwit.
At the signing there was no sovereign Maori nation, or king. It was tribal warfare. Will this mean every tribe gets to set up their own government according to the Maori version. Sounds like we split up into several nations.
I'm joining who ever gets the laser kiwi flag.
Fun fact. There (maybe) was a Treaty. We had a war that made the treat null and void. This Treaty today is nonsense. Luxon needs to grow a pair and tell Maori to back off. The gravy train has come to its last stop. The country can't afford their bs anymore.
We can't afford it and don't want to be in partnership with a bunch of thugs.
Mr Taylor is just being woke (surprise!), there are not two versions of the treaty there is only the Maori version of the treaty as per Hobson's clarification/instruction. If you are going to refer to an English version at all, it should be the one which the Maori version was transcribed from and that would be the Busby/Littlewood treaty draft, which has been established as Busby's draft document of the treaty document dated April 4th 1840 given to Rev. Williams to translate, before the meeting with the Chiefs on the 5th April 1840 and the signing on the 6th April 1840. Do some basic research Mr Taylor, its all there for everyone to see.
This is not a "CHALLENGE" and it is not about taking anyone's rights away rather it is about establishing exactly what rights we all have. As an aside it is NOT A "FOUNDING DOCUMENT" - that is completely wrong and shows a lack of understanding on Ian's part. Finally, "yes" Maori have addressed challenges in this manner AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM... these aggressive ways of dealing with disagreement is not in line with CONTEMPORARY CIVILISATION - so - become more civilised - mature, advance, shake off the chains of an archaic culture.
Once you’ve been fed on privilege the thought of being treated equally is oppression.
They want equality. They just want Maori to be more equal then everyone else 😂
Ian Taylor struggles to string a coherent sentence together. The Treaty Principals Bill is simple because principals are suppose to be simple.What makes Ian Taylor an authority on this matter ? He hardly presents as any sort of treaty scholar. Referendum for the citizens now.
Ian your making it up as you speak and that's why your stammering, talking in circles and tripping over your own tongue.
Nice to see some editorial balance...
Not much of a Balance when he Quotes numbers that are @50% OUT !!!
5.3 million people in NZ and many that are overseas never signed any treaty, let us live Equally together and make New Zealand Greater than ever.
The Crown document version is the first and one that Queen Victoria produce.If the Crown version
is not kept then we have no Treaty.If we want a civilized nation we have to have the Crown version.
Ian Taylor, the Maori culture is not democratic and you can not make it so,the Maori Party behaviour in Parliament and their followers are not democratic.If we don't have democracy,then we have
tyranny-there is no in between.
Well Ian...In tribal European societies it was normal over many century's, that when challenged you formed up in a hoplite phalanx and directly opposed the challenge....should we make that the norm again??? or have we moved passed that??
Careful, you might shatter his well cultivated image of the noble savage utopia ruined by evil Christian Europeans.
Sean: “Did Maori cede sovereignty to the Crown?”
Ian: “Well, I come from a middle class family …”
O man this was a hard listen, ... I'm starting to think too many chiefs not enough scouts !
Since this topic has come up ive started to research nz history between maori and pakeha ,
And once upon a time maori and pakeha got along for the most part especially when you read about our whaling and missionary era of history.
And i had learned about this era in primary school but had what forgotten. And what I found reading was that mordern day is trying to make us to some what (my pov ) believe the maori were dumb and wouldn't have understood the english version, but if they truly looked back in history and read how their ancestors we're very smart , well educated and knew english before the treat of Waitangi was signed .
And pakeha and maori respected each other's culture and lived peaceful lives as they could at that time of history.
And im not saying they all did on both sides but their were sime that did try.
Yes. It's my understanding that Maori of the time of signing the treaty were very smart cookies. They knew their stuff. I hate that it's put about that they were dumb. Also, what about the people here before them ? Why can't we talk about them ?
The English Draft was translated into Te Reo as a sign of respect. If the English wanted to trick the Maori, the Treaty would have been written in English only.
@@judioliver8082because they got made into dinner. Also avoid the infanticide thing, truth hurts, they get hurt feelings. No debate, just like the trans thing. Just screaming, threats, pistol gestures and personal insults. Brownlee, spineless.🤦
I doubt that Ian Taylor will be rushing back to the Platform anytime soon. He may be talking rubbish, but that's for him to own, and for us to make up our own minds.
Does Sir Taylor expect us to scrape and bow as he speaks, what a disgrace he is
Lets say, if Pakeha colonial oppressors ( apparently) reacted to a challenge from Maori by simulating loading their muskets, which would of happened before confrontation back before 1840.
Would thatt be acceptable?
I find it crazy how the Maori version says one thing and english version says another...just throw the whole thing away at this point or are we just going to pay reparations for the rest of time that none of us alive today had anything to do with
The excuse making on behalf of maori is the bigotry of low expectations. It was a debate in parliament, save the hakas for the marae
I read Ian Taylors opinion on Stuff recently. Interesting I thought his perspective was very articulate. But as with most opinions not really balanced. His recommendation that Te Triti should be the document honoured as it was the one uderstood by Maori, doesnt consider the authors of The Treaty the British understood English and believed in the intent of the English version... and well probably didn't truly understand Te Reo Maori given the inaccuracy of the translation. And Taylors additional point regarding Maori of the time would not have signed away their rights if they understood it. Well my guess us representatives of the British Empire they wouldn't relinquish sovereignty, it would not be in the nature of conquests at that time... see different perspectives on the same topic. Which us why a debate and referendum would be logical.
This Ian Taylor is full of his own self importance and his comments cancelled , comments from people like his are a big part of the problem in this country
These was no difference in interpretation Taylor, read the Kohimaramara meeting minutes and resolution No 1 if you are in ANY doubt.
And make sure you realise that over 200 Chiefs who signed the Treaty made that resolution unanimously.
Or Sir Aparana Ngatai’s translation from around 100 years ago. It also explains how the Maori version states that too.
The maori version ceeds govorning authority to the crown. Its not complicate.
Can people please read the treaty.
teara.govt.nz/en/te-tiriti-o-waitangi-the-treaty-of-waitangi/print
@@brianmarshall1762and so does TE Young's translation of about five decades earlier. Taylor needs to do some research.
Gibber gabber 😂
What is wrong with maori selling land? If you have members that rarely visit their land or nowadays do not even live in nz sometimes snd could do with money why not sell it?
Sorry Ian taylor you just lost any respect that I had for you
Never mind thats what happens when you defind that behavior
Is Ian Taylor Kamala Harris's speech writer?
Taylors lost
Bolger wasn't allowed to initiate this conversation, Brash was banished into the wild blue yonder for trying it. We are going to have this korero. It's time.
Our treaty is absolutely fine for both parties if it wasn’t for the British coming to New Zealand the Māori wloud have Al eaten each other it was the British that helped the Māori people by giving them stuff
Ha the British wiped a lot of us out with them bringing us the virus the common cold.
David Crymore only saying equality for all is bull sht
Yes AWEFUL stuff cooking pots, knives, blankets , axes ,forced slaves to escape, made them eat SPUDS (instead of captives spare slaves) liberated aweful tasty PIGS , traded silly fish hooks, needles ,horses ,cows, ropes canvas sails & oh yes lovely Tobacco, rum ,pox & sometimes (for a ton of winnowed flax or 6 nice dried tattooed spare heads)& medicine ..yuk also by the way BECOMING "BRITISH CITIZENS!" ....tut tut SUCH MEAN NAUGHTY BAD BAD people. Never never allow people to escape from the STONE AGE!
The treaty is broken when one race of people have privilege over others..
Yes that's exactly what Monica Matamua said. She said if the Europeans hadn't come all of her people would have been killed and eaten.
has this guy worked for the govt he has no idea what he's talking about
Every time you try and debate with the radicals, they resort to intimidate with a haka/war dance. They had their chance in Wellington today, and once again, resorted to the Haka, yelling.
That guy hasn't a clue .
Do some research before you try to deceive Taylor, read who Tāmati Wāka Nene was on Wikipedia [that is how famous he was], then read what is written on his memorial stone IN ENGLISH AND in MAORI both on Wikipedia too [that is how famous he was]. Then tell me why you should be called Sir. And Ardern Dame...?
I am waiting for your apology to the people of New Zealand, and an assurance you will do your homework properly before spouting forth again, after all it is what we expect from a Knight, and rightly so.
Go on I DARE YOU TO!!!! Correct your misinformation TODAY - ON HERE.....
Well said🎉
This was fun, Sean! Thanks
Nothing to debate about an irrelevant document
It's simplistic Sean, because we should not be asking did the chiefs ceed sovereignty, we should be asking when did they ceed sovereignty. Most (and British) Sovereignty rests upon the private property rights of the king and the lords of the land (Clan chiefs). It is expectations on subjects/tenants, alongside a duty of care and protection, at least in theory. So when can the central government or the king intrude into local government affairs? When can the sovereign intrude into your personal space, the "man's home is his castle" doctrine. It is the answer to these questions that will change the debate on article one.
Simple and easy Ian be like Jacinda - it’s time for retirement
You forgot how to swim!!
She did it because they planned it, simple as that they got the youngest member to start it.
How is using the parliamentary process to introduce a bill which includes 6 months select committee period a “hijacking”? These people are out to lunch!
The thought you've expressed reflects the deep pain and frustration of Indigenous peoples, including Māori in New Zealand, regarding the effects of colonization. Many Indigenous communities experienced significant harm as settlers sought control of land and resources, often disregarding the sovereignty, rights, and humanity of the original inhabitants.
Good lord Taylor is all over the place.
Mr. Taylor's argument here is yet another reason to scrap the Treaty.
Cultural EXPRESSION IS NOW GLOBAL.
Article 1 - How did maori BEHAVE after the signing in 1840?
Ian Taylor is very confused about this Bill.
IAN , absolutely Correct !
It has to all stop ,
There must be absolute Definition
Once and for ALL !😛😛😛
The representatives in parlia - ment represent those that ekected them , NOT ALL of Maoridom 😛😛😛🤨😠😡
Regardless : ALL of New Zealand Has Now Been ASKED TO VOTE for a Referendum on the BILL !
So pre discussion is NOW OVER !!!😛😛😛
Well if there is no referendum we will PARTY VOTE ACT next election
The treaty says the Moari cede sovereignty. The treaty says also in Article 2 The Queen of England agrees to protect the Chiefs, the subtribes and all the people of New Zealand in the unqualified exercise of their chieftainship over their lands, villages and all their treasures. But on the other hand the Chiefs of the Confederation and all the chiefs will sell land to the Queen at a price agreed to by the person owning it and by the person buying it (the latter being) appointed by the Queen as her purchase agent.
Sir Ian Taylor is the founder and managing director of Animation Research. ( FROM STUFF ARTICLE )
OPINION: On three occasions over the past few weeks, I have witnessed the powerful resonance of the haka on the international stage.
In Barcelona, Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei performed a stirring haka to send off Emirates Team New Zealand each morning as they prepared to take on the challenge of Ineos Team Britannia. Their performance echoed across the harbour to the delight of the thousands who had gathered to witness the scene. Te Kara, Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei’s waka, leading Taihoro-the kiwi-designed flying machine-out of the Team New Zealand base to do battle on the waters of the Mediterranean.
Last week, a different haka went viral, amassing nearly three million views worldwide. It featured students from Flaxmere College in Hastings paying tribute to their dux, Naomi Sai, an immigrant from the Philippines who arrived in Aotearoa just last year.
Her message to the millions who watched was simple and moving:
“Thank you so much, New Zealanders, for this opportunity! It’s truly a privilege to experience the culture of New Zealanders, especially the kapa haka (sic) from Māori culture.”
Hana Clarkes daddy is the owner of Taniwha media. That's why it went viral in my opinion. Not because she's super spiritual or any such nonsense but because they set it up to do exactly that. I think it will backfire on them. People overseas now think we're all a bunch of fools.
If the law had any independence and respect left it could have interpreted what the 1975 bill means
Ian Taylor demonstrates how difficult it is for prominent people to discuss and debate constitutional matters. He's confused on fundamentals, facts, manner of engagement. The "versions of the Treaty" is the biggest red herring and a distraction. After the establishment of settled government, the colonial and then dominion government were guided by the Constitution Act 1852, not directly by the Treaty. The Treaty had done its job. It's in the text: sovereign, resources, local authority, rights of subjects.
I’m glad this guest stood up for himself. Sean is too rude to facilitate conversation.
Please Shawn, I'd rather hear a discussion. It's the black and white - he's right and the other is wrong- isn't the total issue. Surely, the issue needs to be discussed as brethren listening rather than as opponents in a court.
Even if one wins the argument based on the treaty and facts etc how will the 'looser' handle it. We need to resolve this as brethren.( I'm not expressing this well I know.) There is so much offense whether real or perceived and to be shown to be wrong the person needs love and a way of esteem and a humility given by the 'victor'. Will we have a nation of brothers with mutual hope at the end of all this. That concerns me.
And I know there a provocateurs in all this.
Why do these people not understand or pretend to not understand EQUALITY despite race....FFS!!!
Taylor doesn't know what he's talking about...
Even the Maori version of the treaty is written using the Latin alphabet. Society must and will advance and some value systems if not adaptable may not survive. Equality in rights and privileges may be a starting point
The soft cell.