No, him being objective, good or bad, is why he's so respected. Defining credibility by ones affinity to smack talk "big bike" is how you get cults around quality individuals like Durian Rider.
@@cvn6555 Yes, in a good business that should happen. Fully agree. Thing is Shimano knows they build low quality products and the mass market just keeps buying.
Love the critical review. He even called out strava’s BS. That’s the type of honesty I like to see… unlike other cycling magazine news outlets that skim the surface
It floors me that a company the size of Shimano can put out a product that is this bad.... TWICE. This video convinced me to buy the Garmin Rally pedals instead for my new SL7 that I am getting shortly. Thanks DC!
The problem is either the company culture. Or Shimano is hiring incompetent engineers. Even if you are a highly competent engineer. If the company management is not on your side. You won't be able to execute to deliver a good product. You won't be able to make design revision changes to fix hardware and software bugs. You won't be able to fix factory production errors and improve efficiencies.
It helps that it’s so heavily data based, yet, it’s also key people show all the data and that they know what to look for and what to test for (eg both chainrings, easy pedaling, etc…).
This is really interesting. I was watching a podcast the other day where they were discussing Tom Pidcock’s power from a recent stage and they mentioned that the power data was in question. Now it makes sense.
Great work. I'm a long term Shimano user, and have been happy with the kit for decades. I don't have a power meter, but have been vaguely thinking about getting one. Before this review, I would have assumed that the official Shimano PM would be good but expensive. Clearly, this thinking was mistaken - as much of a shock as the chocolate bonded Ultegra cranksets that break
For those looking for a very accurate power meter at a reasonable price, go get yourself the Favero Assioma Uno or Duo. I've had the Uno for a few years now and I love it. Super accurate, and I love being able to simply swap the pedals onto one of my other bikes if I want to swap my power meter between bikes. All sorts of reviews on these, including from DC where I believe he chooses them as his top choice.
Me too, bought them a couple years ago, never had a fault, a disconnection, or anything to really care or think about them except the random battery recharge. Really really fantastic
Considering how many instances of Shimano DA & Ultegra cranksets falling apart, and now their ability to have fully functional PM, it goes to show how they respect their customers. The price of high end bikes and groupsets means these items should be 100% all the time.
Frightening! Do we know if the Giant power meter is made by Shimano? Does it suffer the same issues? The hardware does look different. Not much info out there about Giant power meters, specifically on the latest 8100 groupsets. Stellar work as always, DC!
Thanks for your test! I bought the new DuraAce R9200-P Powermeter about a year ago because I wanted an accurate system 🙁 I thought Shimano must have learnt from its mistakes from the first generation and now brought a reliable system onto the market. Besides, Shimano, especially DuraAce, stands for the highest quality for me. And now it's totally inaccurate and you can't rely on it. Hopefully they will solve the problems via firmware update!
I got Garmin Rally Pedals when it came time to upgrade groupset because I saw that Shimano hadn’t gone to a symmetrical crank arm type setup after the very lengthy explanation of it causing accuracy issues with crank based power meters. I was prepared to buy a 9200P and a new set of Dura Ace pedals, however instead I just got the standard crank, and a set of Garmin pedals. If a product manager at Shimano is reading these comments, yes, consumers do make decisions based on this type stuff.
thanks for revealing this and providing such a long and thorough analysis period and an enormous data set. It's hard to believe that Shimano would like something this flawed to go out under their flagship label. I'm deeply in the SRAM camp for other reasons, but I'll be sure to stay clear of any Shimano PMs for the near future no matter how good the price. I suspect that my 10+yo Powertap wheelset would outperform these cranks in accuracy.
Every day I feel happier and more justified in my decision to buy Favero Assioma pedals. Not only are they one of the cheapest options, but they're also one of the most accurate. I've even gone a couple trips where I got a rental bike, and I just brought my pedals with me and boom, power data on a rental bike!
I have recently noticed on Canyon's website that the top spec Speedmax models (TT/tri bike) come with Rotor cranksets and powermeters. I have thought this might be due to supply chain problems. Now I know better...
Big yikes.. and to pick up on the last part of the video. I am also looking into a new bike with the new Shimano 12s Ultegra group set. More and more bike integrators ship those with the Ultegra FC-R8100-P powermeter. Since the Dura Ace one is no good, I don't expect the Ultegra being any better. I'd rather save the 750 to 850 bucks and get a better wheel set for example. I myself am using the Favero Assioma Duos, partly because of your postive review. Super happy with those pedals.
Great review of the Pedals with Data to back it up. I've always had issues with my Shimano 105 Mechanical Groupsets (5800 & R7000) working with Ultegra FD or FSA crankset. Over 10 bike shops later, still had issues. Switched over to SRAM and no issues. So not unexpected of Shimano. I'll never go back to Shimano for road bike parts. They're Mountain Bike components however are great! Glad I'm using Wahoo Speedplay Powerlink Zero Dual-Sided Powermeter Pedals now too!
I swore off Shimano after the Hamnerhead thing even after never owning anything but Shimano equipped bikes. Thank you for confirming my decision. Shimano seemingly hates it's customers, it loves its customers'money for sure, but it seemingly goes out of its way to show its hatred . Now I'm trying to figure out if this has always been true and I was too blinded by marketing to notice or it's a newish thing.
Still riding a 1979 Campy power meter crankset. It's called perceived exertion. As an added bonus it doesn't split down the middle and cause crashes. With crap like this, Shimano still makes some good lower end components..... in Taiwan and Malaysia!
Ive got the ultegra cranks and im defiantly not seeing the same issues. Power is pretty much exactly the same as what my tacx 2t shows and rides outdoors show 0W at the same times as 0 cadence. Happy with my purchase.
Welding Chrome alloy is probably a more difficult process then welding Ti. Most likely the welding procedure used in Taiwan didn’t include inert gas purging like with welding Ti. Without internally purging with argon the glowing red hot metal inside is exposed to air oxygen and is oxidized and as it cools it builds a sweat from moisture condensation. After these frames are welded the Tig weld need to be normalized by reheating and annealing. Now it’s been heated twice. Next the frame was probably bead blasted then sprayed or dipped in phosphate solution to clean exterior oxidation for powder coating. The frame gets heated in a oven with 50 frames hanging on a rack. After the phosphate is dried the powder is sprayed on and run back into the oven for 30 minutes. From a manufacturing standpoint most frames are welded in a purge fixture. The fixture holds the bottom bracket and head tube and rear triangle solid enough machine finishing faced surfaces isn’t required. Some frames go through a tweaking fixture as a worst case. Those holes in the frame are used as vent holes so that when the powder coat is cured in the oven air pressure can escape through the holes and not a pinhole in a weld. My point again is that “Steel”, chrome alloy has the same problems as Titanium but it’s not economically feasible to to do the purge. With Ti welding without inert purging is impossible. The frame looks great. Not as cool as my Yeti frames but SUPERNICE. That bottom bracket looked sweet. Keep banging
Looking forward to your review on the firmware Ver. 4.2.0 update to the FC-R9200-P. The performance/accuracy looks better, but a review with testing would be appreciated.
Wow, imagine you get a fancy new bike including Dura-Ace and then you're actually better off with your 1-sided Assioma pedal or the good, old strap-on Garmin cadence sensor proudly sold since the early 2010s.
Interesting video. I have bought and been using the Favero assioma duo-shi power meters following your review and can only say that they seem to work for me, although I don't go into the stats in any depth relying on the summary provided on Garmin Connect as I am using the 1030 plus head unit.
Hi, did you notice, Shimano just released a firmware update for DuraAce Di2 group set and R9200-P Power Meter to connect both via ANT+ to combine the watt value with the used chain ring for more accuracy. Maybe you can recheck it again?
we had a team deal with shimano and several teammates had di2 groupsets with the Shimano PM. nothing but problems. ive had almost every brand of PM on various bikes over the years with great experience. Quark is still my fave.
Love Shimano but oh man so glad Favero saved me from that mistake! This is for sure an outlier for any company but especially Shimano which is known for rock solid reliability where others fail.
9100 and 11-s ultegra shift just fine with otherwise 12-s Shimano drivetrain. Running a dual-sided stages on mine now, works great. Single-side stages would too. Doesn’t solve the problem of getting stuck with paying for this on certain bikes though.
Thanks for the data. I'm in the market for a pedal or crank power meter and this data helps. Question a little off topic, but I love your shark bike shirt. I'm relatively new to Triathlons (only 3 olys under my belt so far) and absolutely love the sport. Can you point me towards where you found it?
This is good news. If they are crap at measuring power, I can punk my restricted e-bike by swapping out rear sprockets and still hope I have a 50/50 chance I can break the lousy speed restriction
Looks like it's doing some sort of smoothing. I wonder whether the problem with it dropping made them try to smooth the readings to compensate, so the soft pedalling trips it up because it thinks it's dropped.
And almost the entire Peleton is on Shimano. 😅. The power of money and being a market bully! Anyways I’m glad I’m in Campy camp and Garmin for electronics 😊 Kudos to DC for being honest and not afraid of such a big corporation possibly going after him.
I'd love to know if they actually did or did Shane, and Stages, get just lucky. Because the problem should lie in how the driveside crank is constructed, it's hardware issue. Watched one detailed video on it describing that it will remain inherentily inaccurate as long as the crank remains as Shimano has designed it. Basically they can try to compensate it somewhat with software with-in the crank, then it works for some people but for others it will remain inconsistent. So maybe the new software fits Shane's profile as cyclist? While for others it will remain inaccurate.
I've got the Stages LR unit on there now. So far so good...more to come in the following weeks. In talking to Stages, this was the most complex crank they've had to design a PM for, but they believe they've nailed it. And given the ringer that Shane put that unit through, I'd agree they've probably done so. Thus far, my testing is looking positive.
Just brutal. How do they make the same mistake twice? I had a 9100P and it was so far off from every other power meter I had (Garmin Rally, Quarq, even Stages Shimano which share some of the same issues with L&R power balance) the 9100P would just radically under-report on power, no matter how many times it was calibrated and the power would drift with larger temperature changes. SRAM's gaining ground not because their shifting or ergonomics are superior, but because Shimano can't seem to get its power meters right, whereas Quarq is bulletproof and available at every level (Rival, Force, RED).
I figured it must be bad, given the delays since it was announced, but this is quite special! Now that this one is out in the open, any chance of an updated power meter buyers guide?
Thank you for your reply sir! Keep up the good work! 👏🏻I read your review on the 4iiii 3+ Pro Dura Ace and ended up getting a brand spanking new one for $1000.
wow, that's a shocker! Well you could try revisit the IQ2 pedal power meters! lol.......apparently they're shipping now, I'm still waiting though for mine......Love my vector 3's
They aren't shipping to backers (like me and you) though, they are selling them with 48 hr turnaround to anyone who wants one 🤣. I have to laugh about it at this point, because buying a baseball bat and a flight to the Netherlands isn't a sensible option, although I hear their prisons are pretty cushy.
This is all work Shimano engineers could be and should be doing. In my view this is similar to the Shimano E-TUBE app, which is abysmal. It could be so functional but it’s horrible. Have loved Shimano gear for decades but something is wrong.
Funfact: “Holland” doesn’t exist. It is not a country. There’s north and south Holland, which are seperate states in a country called The Netherlands. What you just said compares like north america are countries canada, hollywood and mexico. I believe dcr is in north-holland.
@@Stevenafoe I live in Holland...though officially you are right, we call it Holland. Especially in football. Hup Holland hup, etc. So yes its true what you say Holland is just another name for the Netherlands 👍
Out of topic: Did you noticed that Garmin finally merged training status over devices? Today I found no status by device and other new details. Appreciate if you could talk about it.
Great video thank you. There's a lot to be said for a simple single sided pedal based power meter - most people, arguably even the pros, don't really need more.
That's why I went with sram this year. Sure they have their own problems(none of which I encountered yet I guess) But falling apart crank arms of expensive groupsets, no innovation in 12s, making 105 di2 was enough for me. :D
Best of both worlds for me is Quarq DFour spider with shimano group set. I race and TT with a 54-55t chainring though 🤷♂️ 10 years from now, the current AXS groups would be perfect for my setup
Except for the small chainring issue these problems all seem related to the polling rate. I wouldn't be surprised if they could mitigate (or even solve) the issues by increasing it, at the cost of battery life. Of course if that's the case it should be fixable with a simple firmware update; I have no explanation for why Shimano wouldn't provide it.
I think a critical point is that it is actually accurate as long as you are not pedaling. (oh wow I got to the point where is it actually wrong when you don't pedal) lol
great to have "official" confirmation on this long time suspicion. thank you! but what are the alternatives if: you already have a shimano crank; you want a dual sided PM and don't like the pedals because of the stack height and/or q-factor? is 4iiii 3rd gen now reliable on the right side as well, or is 2dn gen 4iiii the only accurate dual solution?
I also have Shimano cranks... in little plastic bins, labeled up to perhaps put on eBay. The bikes have Rotor cranks with one spider and one spindle power meter.
dumpsterfire sounds like a good summary. Legal warranties will vary between countries but across the EU the seller is liable for 2 years, if he can't fix the problem you get your money back, or in case of a bike get reimbursed to fix it with another unit. That is unfortunate for the seller as it was Shimano who screwed up, but obviously the pressure needs to go through the supply chain to reach Shimano, who will need to react before too many bike builders/resellers can't sell them any more.
I had one on order with my new bike but just called the shop to cancel the order for the power meter. Will add power meter pedals or the Stages power meter later on and order the Shimano Dura Ace without power meter. Thanks for the advice/warning!
Shane (GPlama) tested both variants of the 4iiii PM, the v2 and the new v3. There are some considerations with the v3, but all in all for normal use they are accurate.
I currently have a left crank 4iiii meter on my gravel bike. No issues that I can tell. It's been accurate enough for what I need, and it tracks pretty well with the smart trainer power.
I have 4iiii on my road bike and Stages gen2 on my MTB. I wish they would lie to me and give me more watts tbh; but they are accurate according to all the DCR and GP Lama testing
Would you give a thought on whether the magnitude of the offset could be impacted by the size of the small ring? What small ring size did you ride for the tests? Thanks!
Always love it, when Shimano makes it so easy to laugh at. First cables for their electronic group set (in the new versions, where SRAM already doing an awesome job with wireless technology). And now this power data misery. :D :D Keep it up. I’m well amused. Thank you, Shimano ❤️
Cables are plus mate and one battery is big plus comparing to sram. Not to mention shifting action 12a shimano groupsets that is unbeatable on the market
Just messing with shimano people. Sorry for my statement. With 1500km on the bike per year I’m not supposed to have such a sarcastic opinion about manufacturers 😅
DCR being critical of the most powerful corporations in the sports industry makes him the most trusted (and feared) name in the business.
Most people in the industry care about what he says, because he is trustworthy. Shimano, not so much.
He even called out strava’s BS. That’s the type of honesty I like to see… unlike other cycling magazine news outlets that skim the surface
He’s gonna need a 12-member security team… 😬
No, him being objective, good or bad, is why he's so respected. Defining credibility by ones affinity to smack talk "big bike" is how you get cults around quality individuals like Durian Rider.
Unbelievable in this day for a company like Shimano to have this on the market. Thanks for holding them to account.
The problem is this is pretty much standard for Shimano
Important executives get fired over these types of huge mistakes.
@@kpizzle1985 no its not… sorry
@ my dead Di2 battery, crumbling rear caliper, destroyed R9100 chainset and #thanksshimano disagree
@@cvn6555 Yes, in a good business that should happen. Fully agree. Thing is Shimano knows they build low quality products and the mass market just keeps buying.
Finally, the right power meter for me. I'll take the extra 20W.
But you lose it all when you go for the sprint.
@@toadlguy no way, just stop pedaling and there’s more free watts.
They have the left as well
Good to see honest reviews like this
Love the critical review. He even called out strava’s BS. That’s the type of honesty I like to see… unlike other cycling magazine news outlets that skim the surface
Looking forward to the GCN video extolling the virtues of the new Shimano power meter 😂. Thanks for the ballsy, well researched video!
I don't always over estimate my FTP or win the Zwift race, but when I do...
It floors me that a company the size of Shimano can put out a product that is this bad.... TWICE. This video convinced me to buy the Garmin Rally pedals instead for my new SL7 that I am getting shortly. Thanks DC!
The problem is either the company culture. Or Shimano is hiring incompetent engineers.
Even if you are a highly competent engineer. If the company management is not on your side. You won't be able to execute to deliver a good product. You won't be able to make design revision changes to fix hardware and software bugs. You won't be able to fix factory production errors and improve efficiencies.
It´s not without irony...not wanting bad, overpriced products while ordering a SL7 😉
I hate to break it to you but the Garmin Rally’s are not great
You might wanna swap that crankset for something more durable too..
@@iMadrid11 The engineers may be incompetent in making a reliable product. They are, however, not responsible for putting it on the market! ;)
So outside use the large and on Zwift use the small. Thanks Shimano!
I think power meters are one of the few products that gets honest reviews on the UA-cam
It helps that it’s so heavily data based, yet, it’s also key people show all the data and that they know what to look for and what to test for (eg both chainrings, easy pedaling, etc…).
Once again, your detailed analysis provides excellent information for us cyclists DC! 👏
This is really interesting. I was watching a podcast the other day where they were discussing Tom Pidcock’s power from a recent stage and they mentioned that the power data was in question. Now it makes sense.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the Favero Assioma power meters, which I purchased and have been enjoying thoroughly!
R9200P is superb for zwifting: you stop pedaling, and watts stay high
By what I see almost everyday on Zwift, a lot of people must use these R9200P...while weighting 45 kg or so.
@@benjorito76 🤣
Sticky watts 😂
Great work. I'm a long term Shimano user, and have been happy with the kit for decades. I don't have a power meter, but have been vaguely thinking about getting one. Before this review, I would have assumed that the official Shimano PM would be good but expensive. Clearly, this thinking was mistaken - as much of a shock as the chocolate bonded Ultegra cranksets that break
For those looking for a very accurate power meter at a reasonable price, go get yourself the Favero Assioma Uno or Duo. I've had the Uno for a few years now and I love it. Super accurate, and I love being able to simply swap the pedals onto one of my other bikes if I want to swap my power meter between bikes. All sorts of reviews on these, including from DC where I believe he chooses them as his top choice.
in an N+1 world, I don't see why anyone would run anything other than Assiomas or pedal power meter.
100% agree. I bought a pair in 2020 based on his reviews/advice, have not regretted it one iota.
I have the Faveros on three bikes. Dead nuts accurate and easy to deal with.
Me too, bought them a couple years ago, never had a fault, a disconnection, or anything to really care or think about them except the random battery recharge. Really really fantastic
It's so sad they have no spd version available.
Considering how many instances of Shimano DA & Ultegra cranksets falling apart, and now their ability to have fully functional PM, it goes to show how they respect their customers. The price of high end bikes and groupsets means these items should be 100% all the time.
Strava and Shimano now have a combined bounty on your head DC!! Stay safe😘😘😘😘
Frightening! Do we know if the Giant power meter is made by Shimano? Does it suffer the same issues? The hardware does look different. Not much info out there about Giant power meters, specifically on the latest 8100 groupsets. Stellar work as always, DC!
That was going to be my question exactly.
Giant is made by Stages
Thanks for your test! I bought the new DuraAce R9200-P Powermeter about a year ago because I wanted an accurate system 🙁 I thought Shimano must have learnt from its mistakes from the first generation and now brought a reliable system onto the market. Besides, Shimano, especially DuraAce, stands for the highest quality for me. And now it's totally inaccurate and you can't rely on it. Hopefully they will solve the problems via firmware update!
I got Garmin Rally Pedals when it came time to upgrade groupset because I saw that Shimano hadn’t gone to a symmetrical crank arm type setup after the very lengthy explanation of it causing accuracy issues with crank based power meters.
I was prepared to buy a 9200P and a new set of Dura Ace pedals, however instead I just got the standard crank, and a set of Garmin pedals.
If a product manager at Shimano is reading these comments, yes, consumers do make decisions based on this type stuff.
thanks for revealing this and providing such a long and thorough analysis period and an enormous data set. It's hard to believe that Shimano would like something this flawed to go out under their flagship label. I'm deeply in the SRAM camp for other reasons, but I'll be sure to stay clear of any Shimano PMs for the near future no matter how good the price. I suspect that my 10+yo Powertap wheelset would outperform these cranks in accuracy.
Strava: we are a dumpster fire.
Shimano: hold my beer.
The acquisition of Pioneers power meter business seems like a great investment.
Every day I feel happier and more justified in my decision to buy Favero Assioma pedals. Not only are they one of the cheapest options, but they're also one of the most accurate. I've even gone a couple trips where I got a rental bike, and I just brought my pedals with me and boom, power data on a rental bike!
I have recently noticed on Canyon's website that the top spec Speedmax models (TT/tri bike) come with Rotor cranksets and powermeters. I have thought this might be due to supply chain problems. Now I know better...
"Supply chain" problems alright = ie: nobody wants them >> haha
Big yikes.. and to pick up on the last part of the video. I am also looking into a new bike with the new Shimano 12s Ultegra group set. More and more bike integrators ship those with the Ultegra FC-R8100-P powermeter. Since the Dura Ace one is no good, I don't expect the Ultegra being any better. I'd rather save the 750 to 850 bucks and get a better wheel set for example. I myself am using the Favero Assioma Duos, partly because of your postive review. Super happy with those pedals.
Cheers mate! I was not sure what to purchase/use, a Shimano Crank power meter or a pedal-based power meter. Now I know!
Great review of the Pedals with Data to back it up.
I've always had issues with my Shimano 105 Mechanical Groupsets (5800 & R7000) working with Ultegra FD or FSA crankset. Over 10 bike shops later, still had issues. Switched over to SRAM and no issues. So not unexpected of Shimano. I'll never go back to Shimano for road bike parts. They're Mountain Bike components however are great!
Glad I'm using Wahoo Speedplay Powerlink Zero Dual-Sided Powermeter Pedals now too!
Are you having to extra "cover yourself" stating multiple sources, multiple times because it's Shimano? Youre awesome, dude!
I knew it!
My other half disagrees, but OBVIOUSLY I have to buy a THM Clavicula with an SRM.
Thanks
There is no hiding here for Shimano as it's pure facts/data who's doing the talking. Great video!
I swore off Shimano after the Hamnerhead thing even after never owning anything but Shimano equipped bikes. Thank you for confirming my decision. Shimano seemingly hates it's customers, it loves its customers'money for sure, but it seemingly goes out of its way to show its hatred . Now I'm trying to figure out if this has always been true and I was too blinded by marketing to notice or it's a newish thing.
So glad Canyon supplied my Endurace with a Rotor power crank set and not the planned Dura Ace model.
I guess my desire for Stages to release a 12speed Ultegra level power meter is even higher now.............
Still riding a 1979 Campy power meter crankset. It's called perceived exertion. As an added bonus it doesn't split down the middle and cause crashes. With crap like this, Shimano still makes some good lower end components..... in Taiwan and Malaysia!
Great review, and absolutely appreciated as a cautionary statement! Also, I want the shark-riding-a-bicycle t-shirt! :D
Now a comparison to SRAM Red Axs Powermeter would be interesting to see!
Ive got the ultegra cranks and im defiantly not seeing the same issues. Power is pretty much exactly the same as what my tacx 2t shows and rides outdoors show 0W at the same times as 0 cadence. Happy with my purchase.
Welding Chrome alloy is probably a more difficult process then welding Ti. Most likely the welding procedure used in Taiwan didn’t include inert gas purging like with welding Ti. Without internally purging with argon the glowing red hot metal inside is exposed to air oxygen and is oxidized and as it cools it builds a sweat from moisture condensation. After these frames are welded the Tig weld need to be normalized by reheating and annealing. Now it’s been heated twice. Next the frame was probably bead blasted then sprayed or dipped in phosphate solution to clean exterior oxidation for powder coating. The frame gets heated in a oven with 50 frames hanging on a rack. After the phosphate is dried the powder is sprayed on and run back into the oven for 30 minutes.
From a manufacturing standpoint most frames are welded in a purge fixture. The fixture holds the bottom bracket and head tube and rear triangle solid enough machine finishing faced surfaces isn’t required. Some frames go through a tweaking fixture as a worst case.
Those holes in the frame are used as vent holes so that when the powder coat is cured in the oven air pressure can escape through the holes and not a pinhole in a weld. My point again is that “Steel”, chrome alloy has the same problems as Titanium but it’s not economically feasible to to do the purge. With Ti welding without inert purging is impossible.
The frame looks great. Not as cool as my Yeti frames but SUPERNICE.
That bottom bracket looked sweet. Keep banging
Looking forward to your review on the firmware Ver. 4.2.0 update to the FC-R9200-P. The performance/accuracy looks better, but a review with testing would be appreciated.
Wow, imagine you get a fancy new bike including Dura-Ace and then you're actually better off with your 1-sided Assioma pedal or the good, old strap-on Garmin cadence sensor proudly sold since the early 2010s.
Interesting video. I have bought and been using the Favero assioma duo-shi power meters following your review and can only say that they seem to work for me, although I don't go into the stats in any depth relying on the summary provided on Garmin Connect as I am using the 1030 plus head unit.
Hi, did you notice, Shimano just released a firmware update for DuraAce Di2 group set and R9200-P Power Meter to connect both via ANT+ to combine the watt value with the used chain ring for more accuracy. Maybe you can recheck it again?
I almost bought one. So glad I bought another set of Assiona Duos. Thanks Ray 😁
Assioma, 4iiii left arm, or Quarq. End of story! Great video.
Thanks for doing this Ray. Saved me some money
Great video. Was there any response from Shimano on you analysis?
Crazy, the DA power crank is like $800 more than the non-power cranks, can’t believe they’re continuing to sell it.
Always very high quality content!
An now I know which Powermeter not to buy!
we had a team deal with shimano and several teammates had di2 groupsets with the Shimano PM. nothing but problems. ive had almost every brand of PM on various bikes over the years with great experience. Quark is still my fave.
Love Shimano but oh man so glad Favero saved me from that mistake! This is for sure an outlier for any company but especially Shimano which is known for rock solid reliability where others fail.
We trust you. It’s just crap.
9100 and 11-s ultegra shift just fine with otherwise 12-s Shimano drivetrain. Running a dual-sided stages on mine now, works great. Single-side stages would too. Doesn’t solve the problem of getting stuck with paying for this on certain bikes though.
Thanks for the data. I'm in the market for a pedal or crank power meter and this data helps.
Question a little off topic, but I love your shark bike shirt. I'm relatively new to Triathlons (only 3 olys under my belt so far) and absolutely love the sport. Can you point me towards where you found it?
This is good news. If they are crap at measuring power, I can punk my restricted e-bike by swapping out rear sprockets and still hope I have a 50/50 chance I can break the lousy speed restriction
Clicked the like before video started playing. :D
That's the spirit!
Just buy Favero Assioma Duo. They are super accurate and ALWAYS work.
Looks like it's doing some sort of smoothing. I wonder whether the problem with it dropping made them try to smooth the readings to compensate, so the soft pedalling trips it up because it thinks it's dropped.
Very glad now that I bought my 9270 groupset without a powermeter!
I am not really surprised. I remember years ago GPLlama did a video on how Shimano crank based power meters are likely inaccurate.
I have 3 - they all over read! Very surprising for such a big company.
Thanks for the great video. Do you reckon the problem might be worse/better depending on the size of the small ring? Or completely unrelated?
Wow. Thanks Ray. Best regards Martin
Great review. Would it be a given that the same issues would also occur on the Ultegra version ??
Great work, Ray 👏
Great material. Share it to friends!
Great video! Did you have any experience with the SRAM Rival AXS Quark Powermeter?? Did you hear of similar problems there?
Thanks for your work!!
Hope we'll get a tri-bike review!
And almost the entire Peleton is on Shimano. 😅. The power of money and being a market bully!
Anyways I’m glad I’m in Campy camp and Garmin for electronics 😊
Kudos to DC for being honest and not afraid of such a big corporation possibly going after him.
I went Stages (from Shane's recommendation) because of this. Stages managed to make this work dual sided...
I'd love to know if they actually did or did Shane, and Stages, get just lucky. Because the problem should lie in how the driveside crank is constructed, it's hardware issue. Watched one detailed video on it describing that it will remain inherentily inaccurate as long as the crank remains as Shimano has designed it.
Basically they can try to compensate it somewhat with software with-in the crank, then it works for some people but for others it will remain inconsistent. So maybe the new software fits Shane's profile as cyclist? While for others it will remain inaccurate.
Stages changed the gauge placement on the right side.
I've got the Stages LR unit on there now. So far so good...more to come in the following weeks. In talking to Stages, this was the most complex crank they've had to design a PM for, but they believe they've nailed it. And given the ringer that Shane put that unit through, I'd agree they've probably done so. Thus far, my testing is looking positive.
Sad day in sports tech imho. Just hoping stages can figure it out for an aftermarket solution and can make a reliable right side pm.
They've had time now. Bad results were 'kinda' understandable when it first came out. They are aware of the issue right?
Yes. For many months.
They are selling, so no issue I guess...
Just brutal. How do they make the same mistake twice? I had a 9100P and it was so far off from every other power meter I had (Garmin Rally, Quarq, even Stages Shimano which share some of the same issues with L&R power balance) the 9100P would just radically under-report on power, no matter how many times it was calibrated and the power would drift with larger temperature changes. SRAM's gaining ground not because their shifting or ergonomics are superior, but because Shimano can't seem to get its power meters right, whereas Quarq is bulletproof and available at every level (Rival, Force, RED).
I figured it must be bad, given the delays since it was announced, but this is quite special! Now that this one is out in the open, any chance of an updated power meter buyers guide?
Ray for President 👍🚴👍
Dc rain maker does legendary work.
Hey DC Rainmaker! Did this power meter ever improve since your review? Many thanks!
Sadly not.
Thank you for your reply sir! Keep up the good work! 👏🏻I read your review on the 4iiii 3+ Pro Dura Ace and ended up getting a brand spanking new one for $1000.
wow, that's a shocker!
Well you could try revisit the IQ2 pedal power meters! lol.......apparently they're shipping now, I'm still waiting though for mine......Love my vector 3's
They aren't shipping to backers (like me and you) though, they are selling them with 48 hr turnaround to anyone who wants one 🤣. I have to laugh about it at this point, because buying a baseball bat and a flight to the Netherlands isn't a sensible option, although I hear their prisons are pretty cushy.
This is all work Shimano engineers could be and should be doing. In my view this is similar to the Shimano E-TUBE app, which is abysmal. It could be so functional but it’s horrible. Have loved Shimano gear for decades but something is wrong.
This review is German thoroughness from an American in Holland. Perfect👍
Funfact: “Holland” doesn’t exist. It is not a country. There’s north and south Holland, which are seperate states in a country called The Netherlands. What you just said compares like north america are countries canada, hollywood and mexico. I believe dcr is in north-holland.
@@Stevenafoe I live in Holland...though officially you are right, we call it Holland. Especially in football. Hup Holland hup, etc. So yes its true what you say Holland is just another name for the Netherlands 👍
Is it safe to assume the FC-R8100-P (Ultegra version of the unit reviewed here) is plagued by the same issues?
Out of topic:
Did you noticed that Garmin finally merged training status over devices? Today I found no status by device and other new details.
Appreciate if you could talk about it.
Yup! More detailed load/video later in the week. Lots of nuances!
Not updated for me. Still split by device (UK)
@@SimonLerpiniere try search for firmware and app updates. Device and phone.
@@drigobarreto Nope. All up to date, and still same.
Great video thank you. There's a lot to be said for a simple single sided pedal based power meter - most people, arguably even the pros, don't really need more.
That's why I went with sram this year. Sure they have their own problems(none of which I encountered yet I guess) But falling apart crank arms of expensive groupsets, no innovation in 12s, making 105 di2 was enough for me. :D
Why do you see making 105 di2 as a problem? Because that makes it too expensive for a middle range groupeset?
Best of both worlds for me is Quarq DFour spider with shimano group set. I race and TT with a 54-55t chainring though 🤷♂️
10 years from now, the current AXS groups would be perfect for my setup
Except for the small chainring issue these problems all seem related to the polling rate. I wouldn't be surprised if they could mitigate (or even solve) the issues by increasing it, at the cost of battery life.
Of course if that's the case it should be fixable with a simple firmware update; I have no explanation for why Shimano wouldn't provide it.
I find it astonishing as Shimano bought Pioneer, how made really solid power meters according to you. They have the solution at hand wouldn’t you say?
I came here to say this. My pioneer is still going strong. How did they mess up so badly?
I think a critical point is that it is actually accurate as long as you are not pedaling. (oh wow I got to the point where is it actually wrong when you don't pedal) lol
great to have "official" confirmation on this long time suspicion. thank you!
but what are the alternatives if: you already have a shimano crank; you want a dual sided PM and don't like the pedals because of the stack height and/or q-factor?
is 4iiii 3rd gen now reliable on the right side as well, or is 2dn gen 4iiii the only accurate dual solution?
I also have Shimano cranks... in little plastic bins, labeled up to perhaps put on eBay. The bikes have Rotor cranks with one spider and one spindle power meter.
That’ll explain Geraint Thomas doing his best ever numbers at the 2022 TdF
dumpsterfire sounds like a good summary. Legal warranties will vary between countries but across the EU the seller is liable for 2 years, if he can't fix the problem you get your money back, or in case of a bike get reimbursed to fix it with another unit. That is unfortunate for the seller as it was Shimano who screwed up, but obviously the pressure needs to go through the supply chain to reach Shimano, who will need to react before too many bike builders/resellers can't sell them any more.
Great video!
I had one on order with my new bike but just called the shop to cancel the order for the power meter. Will add power meter pedals or the Stages power meter later on and order the Shimano Dura Ace without power meter. Thanks for the advice/warning!
I was debating getting one of the left crank 4iii meters for my gravel bike, are those ok?
Shane (GPlama) tested both variants of the 4iiii PM, the v2 and the new v3. There are some considerations with the v3, but all in all for normal use they are accurate.
@@derx6666 cool I'll check the videos out
He has reviews on them.. fine as far as I remember.
I currently have a left crank 4iiii meter on my gravel bike. No issues that I can tell. It's been accurate enough for what I need, and it tracks pretty well with the smart trainer power.
I have 4iiii on my road bike and Stages gen2 on my MTB. I wish they would lie to me and give me more watts tbh; but they are accurate according to all the DCR and GP Lama testing
Would you give a thought on whether the magnitude of the offset could be impacted by the size of the small ring? What small ring size did you ride for the tests? Thanks!
Always love it, when Shimano makes it so easy to laugh at.
First cables for their electronic group set (in the new versions, where SRAM already doing an awesome job with wireless technology).
And now this power data misery. :D :D
Keep it up. I’m well amused. Thank you, Shimano ❤️
Cables are plus mate and one battery is big plus comparing to sram.
Not to mention shifting action 12a shimano groupsets that is unbeatable on the market
when is sram gonna make a reliable front derailleur
Just messing with shimano people. Sorry for my statement. With 1500km on the bike per year I’m not supposed to have such a sarcastic opinion about manufacturers 😅
Ugh. Love my Favero Assioma Pedals!
WHACKED IT! 👍
Thanks a lot for this! There is a also the Ultegra R8100 powermeter. Does it use the same technology and is it also affected? Many thanks!
Same tech.
So if I want to pump up my power stats I need to get this power meter?
EJ from NorCal:
"Yes"