I just want Nintendo to be more creative with Mario, so that romhackers will be more inspired and do even more creative stuff than Nintendo. It's a chain reaction. I love to see fans push the limits with ideas that are conceived by Nintendo but only really played with.
I'm gonna be real, the part about the physics really just felt like you've played hundreds of hours of SMW romhacks, so that game's physics are what you're personally extremely used to, so anything else is going to feel wrong
Yeah. It would be cool to have some subtler SMW quirks added back in, but it would also be cool if SMW had modern Mario abilities like ground pounds and midair spins, so no system is perfect. If Nintendo refused to iterate on SMW physics, we would have never experienced those features in a 2D Mario game.
Yeah I was gonna say this lol, Mario Wonder feels pretty great to a casual player. I’ve tried to play through Mario World and it can feel pretty awkward to someone who hasn’t gotten so used to it.
@@thatdanjamesguy.330 mario world's "quirks" are so subtle that they basically only make a difference in the world of ROM hacks. as far as controls, physics, and moveset go, I'd say mario wonder is perfect.
I think this is the first time I've seen one of your videos and just wholeheartedly disagreed. I like romhacks, but they're nothing like an official game. Kaizo is a whole can of worms but it requires basically learning the game mechanics like a new language, it's rewarding and fun, but it's a lot of work and investment. I feel like kaizo hacks and mario platformers have completely different goals and achieve very different things. I think it's weird to say kaizo mario is just better than other mario platformers. Also, my friends and I love the scavenger hunt levels. I'd love more design like that where it's an open area meant to be explored and poked at. It's a great pace breaker from the action stages.
If Nintendo focused on making games for Kaizo audience they’d be out of business in 5 years. For me, ROM hacks are cute experiments that make for fun UA-cam videos but they’ll never replace my interest in a real brand new Mario game. It’s not apples and oranges; it’s apples and bricks.
The video would be better if it talked about how wonderful romhacks could be without putting down Wonder and treating the regular hacks as an alternative and lesser option compared to Kaizo. Not everyone wants or likes all the kaizo. As someone that enjoys SM64 hacks when the community obsessed with QSLG's i lost so much interest in getting into the kaizo that it wasn't till very recently i started playing them again and even then i only play select kaizo and nothing more. Most of the time i be enjoying intermediate SM64 hacks.
the idea of it being made "for kids" or "for adults' is kinda faulty. The average adult even average adult gamer is not skilled enough for kaizo and I'm sure the kaizo community has plenty of teenagers.
This video combines the aspect I love the most from youtube with the thing I hate most about any internet discussion. I love seeing someone talk about stuff they love and speak so passionately about it. On the other hand I hate when people say that something is bad because "It's different from what I want so it's objectively bad/worse than the thing I love."
Tbh I think the second thing is more of a side effect of writing smooth scripts. It’s usually implied that people understand their opinion is subjective but constantly saying “I think”, “in my opinion”, etc. would be tiring to hear, so it gets cut. The Joseph Anderson video “Subjectivity is Implied” articulates this well … in my opinion. :P
@@thatdanjamesguy.330 I decided to rewatch the video and I admit I was a bit harsh in my phrasing. However I think the thing that annoys me the most is the fact that Wonder is only brought up so he can say how it's not as good as the ROM hacks. This video could have cut Wonder out of the script and 90% of the video would be exactly the same.
@@jclkaytwoI can see his criticisms regarding the engine and stuff like that and maybe he isn't much of a fan of the games unskippable dialogue sections but his critique on unremarkable wonder effects is insane. I guess he wasn't a fan of turning into a ball, before outrunning a giant ball yourself as the game tilts the screen in two directions, or enemies that become popcorn, or metal mario, the Neverending story dragon, king boo's musical number, isometric plane shift where a section of the level becomes an entirely different one due to said perspective shift, pirate ship, Buffalo hordes, etc. The list goes on. Not to mention even when they're reused it's usually in a different context and the game also has levels that are actually nonlinear and require clever use of the gimmick(the desert switch palace). It fulfills so,÷ of the different game design principles he loves(using all the buffalo, teaching without telling, respetively) was very surprised to see that he didn't love the game. Exploration of the overworld is also a thing now as well, which I thought he would bring up but guess not. The irony when he complains about bosses when smws boss fights are also ass if not worse.
@@thesnatcher3616 honestly I don't see the criticisms about mario wonder's engine, imo it's far more refined than mario world's engine. he just prefers mario world's engine because he's played hundreds of mario world hacks, so that's what he'll always be used to. anyway yeah the wonder effect criticism is silly. did he want every single wonder effect to be a crazy gimmick that completely changes up the gameplay? because that would've made the game more stale if anything. regarding the boss fight criticism, it really seems like a trend for mario world fans to criticize mario wonder for issues that mario world also had... which is something they'll gloss over.
Just wanted to add that I think that Snowman's opinion on SMWonder is bang on the money. It is made with children in mind, or more specifically parents playing with their children. Most of the game seems to be at a 2 star difficulty, which is quite constraining in an inventive level design sense. I'm getting older I'm getting crapper at games but jeez this game is overly easy. I haven't had this problem with other console Mario games, and it's because it's so children can beat it. Dang (for me!). Being ultra-hard isn't what I want but being a pushover isn't, either 😂
@@OSW am I the only one who feels like the visuals are the only thing that carried the game? I get that the game is supposed to be easy, but like you said, it feels so easy to the point where the game just plays itself. Heck, even somewhat recent Nintendo games like Odyssey didn't feel like this. The bosses being "Bowser Jr, but..." certainly didn't help either I don't understand the argument of "it's for kids" either. Sure, it is. But even as a little kid, I was perfectly fine with the older, more difficult Mario games. I think people underestimate the intelligence of a child and dumb things down a little too much, but that's a whole other can of worms lol.
He isn't talking about only Kaizo hacks or presenting the brutal difficulty as a necessary thing, he's talking about the creativity in Mario hacks in general
Sorry i have to disagree with your video. What i do agree with is that ROM Hacks are extremely creative and push the boundaries of what mario games can do, and what mechanics it can have. The problem is that you compare casual friendly mario games to an extreme niche of really hard romhacks. Nintendo games are great because they are open to many people and different playstyles. Making something more difficult doesnt make it automatically better even if there are great mechanics. It depends on what your taste is. Its clear that you are very biased because you express your love of these hacks so much, and that is completely cool. But saying that kaizo hacks are like mario games for adults is a big stretch. I love the designs of these kaizo hacks, the music and the mechanics. But all of this is locked behind such a steep learning curve that only a fraction of people will play and enjoy it. Even if youre a really good player, you dont always want to have a super hard challenge when u come home from work. Kaizo games also forces the player to play levels in one certain style. There is little room for error and you cant complete a level in a different way. This kind of game design works great when u want to focus on certain level mechanics but it also limits how people can play your game. I would have agree more with you if you would have shown us comparable mario hacks that are super creative and also friendly for casual and hardcore players alike. Yes u did mention some but youre whole argument came clearly out of the kaizo hacks.
What I'm seeing is that there are two types of romhack: - ones that focus on difficulty and flow - ones that are easy but pretty/thematic/creative Wonder fits into the later, but is super pretty.
Tbh this is exactly why I hate the Celeste community, I don't wanna have to learn how to play the two HARDEST tricks in the game or even stuff that's straight up not taught in there, just to have more maps to play. It's pretty much impossible for me to play any Celeste mod for this reason nowadays (aside from the collabs but even those are needlessly tight as hell aside from those made by my friend) The genre is niche and SUPPOSED to stay niche. No shame on you for liking it but at the end of the day the Mario series is supposed to stay as a 2D platformer for BEGINNERS. Not everything needs to be some speedrunner type shite
Just look for more beginner mods. Celeste is a short game and a lot of people who stuck around for modded were players looking for more, people inevitably got better and pushed the game with mechanics that weren't explored in the main game I don't get why you would hate the community for this, and there's quite a lot of mods on the easier side if you are willing to look for them
Just saying but JUMP and JUMP 1/2 are far beyond the skill of what a casual player is able to beat, even the earlier easier levels, I don't think a mainstream game could do that type of difficulty.
It's great that ROM hacks exists, but ultimately they cater to a very niche audience. As an adult with limited time , I'm glad that not every Mario game is a Lost Levels (or worse) ordeal, even if those can be an occasional fun novelty. Speaking of growing up with your audience, isn't that what Sony did, and now they're struggling due to a lack of "kiddie" games?
I feel like the critiques of the physics could be because of experience, right? From what i see i think id prefer world’s physics but wonder’s are for the casual base as theyre easier to pick up and play, so for that they are better even if worse, but you being this deep in world’s physics would make any other platformer feel like it has less control because for you that IS the case
While Nintendo might never cater to the niche that is the Kaizo community due to its own limitations (which is totally fine and I don't want to use phrasing like "cannot reach the level of" because that's a direct comparison and depends on personal opinion), I hope the Kaizo scene can cause some talented indie devs to take inspiration from the experience Kaizo provided and turn it into fresh new games. Maddy Thorson (one of the main creators of Celeste) is an excellent example of this. I can't say for sure that she's in the Kaizo community before Celeste, but Wikipedia said she has worked on SMW ROM hacks at around the same time that Celeste Classic was out. Celeste, while widely regarded as a hard game, is still manageable and has a complete difficulty curve, from easy-moderate to extremely difficult stuff, which I find most Kaizo games I know really lack.
Yeah, building cadences that make sense and welcoming the players does not mean making easy games. Most kaizo games I've played fail to deliver a proper pacing curve and introduce mechanical challenges that can be twisted and evolved before asking a lot from the player.
@@sergisubirats7791Kaizo is not like a commercial game in that you do not expect everyone playing your hack to have zero experience with the physics. They are made for people who are really into the original game and it's recommended to spend time learning the mechanics before throwing yourself into harder stuff Saying they fail in delivering the experience of a casual game isn't fair when it's catering to its own audience
I'm gonna be real for a second and say that I actually prefer Super Mario Bros. Wonder over most Kaizo Hacks for one simple reason. As Mario games, none of them feel like they were made with Mario in mind, as a character or as a franchise, and what that means is that Mario is made for everyone, and I do mean everyone, Nintendo had that figured out by 2005. But normal ROM Hacks that try to emulate Mario in a more authentic manner, I might as well consider them canon, given I also played Sonic Mania which was a fan game published by Sega. But as a character and franchise that was engineered to cater to everyone on earth regardless of age, skill, or enjoyment, Mario is unique in the sense that if you were to alter it completely, you would either be missing the point, or you would end up making a new franchise. Kinda like what I'm doing. That being said, if it were an entirely new franchise made with the bones of Super Mario World's source code and new mechanics these Hacks bring to the table, I'd be singing a different tune. And happy to say, Celeste was pretty much that game. And I want more of that.
It's always interesting to me to hear SMW ROM hacks being talked about as primarily Kaizo with standard hacks as a bit of an addendum, because I remember a time (late 2000s, early 2010s) where it was very much the other way round. It's like two different subcultures these days!
The problem for me is, that Kaizo has almost _completely_ overtaken traditional hacks. To the point where if any visually interesting SMW romhack that comes out 9/10 it's a Kaizo style game.
@@DarkIceKrabby there's been some really really good non-kaizo stuff recently that's not ultra hard, look at Attempt At A Normal Hack and Spatial Whirl for example
@@DarkIceKrabby Yeah an example that really adds merit to your statement is a kaizo hack called hacker's dreams. Sure it Has Tons of cool music ports, ASM, Graphics, heck even overworld cutsences, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that it's still a kaizo hack (& a hard one at that). People are just gonna see a walkthrough of the hack, say "That's cool" & never actually play it because it's kaizo & they'll probably wont even beat the 1st level.
I wish i had gotten into SMW hacks a lot earlier. I discovered the Super Mario World Central way back, but i was so new to the whole thing i had no idea how it worked. I do recall watching numerous people play them, though, like AzureBlade.
I love kaizo romhacks but the physics in Wonder also felt great to me. It was also nice to be able to play the game with my daughter fully (she played with me on every single level). Usually some of the endgame levels I have to play solo because they're too hard for her to tag along with. While it wasn't as challenging as I'd have preferred in the end game, it was a fresh and new experience to be able to play a FULL Mario game co-op with her. I felt like this video would have been exactly the same without mentioning Wonder at all. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that a mainline Mario title doesn't cater towards a tiny niche market of players that want something insanely hard (I include myself in that niche market btw).
I don't exactly disagree with the video... But something about this rubs me the wrong way, and I can't quite place my finger on it. Its kind of conceited to say that they "perfected" platformer movement in 1991, when you've spent years playing those kinds of games. Its like a speedrunner saying that Super Mario 64 "perfected" 3D movement... They _didn't._ That's your own bias showing. And I also think its kind of ridiculous to hold Nintendo to the absurdly high standards of ROM hacks, because ROM hacks have no limitations to what they can do. They don't have to worry about public image, they don't have to worry about copyright (usually), and they certainly don't have to worry about Karen trying to sue them for having guns in a Mario game (obviously I'm exaggerating, but you get my point). They have decades worth of fans that all have their own expectations and opinions. Nintendo has been playing it safe for years and the second they actually start flexing their creativity its "not good enough" compared to fan creations. :/ This may be a hot take, but I HATE hard games... I don't want to try and fail and try and fail over and over again just to eventually get it right. I just want to play the darn game. As a bit of a completionist, I enjoy having a chill and relaxing (but not boring) time completing everything a game has to offer... But hard levels are like hitting a brick wall. _Especially_ if they don't have frequent checkpoints. People complain that Mario Wonder is "too easy," but I hated every second of the Special World (and don't even mention that stupid Final Badge Challenge). I hate it when completion is locked behind challenge levels. Hard modes should ALWAYS be an optional thing. I can beat hard levels, but I don't enjoy it. And that's my issue with them. They aren't fun. The only gratification I feel is knowing I never have to do it again anytime soon. To say that easy games are "made for kids" is also just insulting... I'm a grown man but I am perfectly content playing non-challenging games, thank you very much. The way I see it, life is hard enough as it is. _Playing games is for having fun, and not everyone is a masochist_ (once again, this is hyperbole to get my point across, so don't @ me).
Funny enough i like "hard" games and a good challenge. But when u get older and dont have so much time to spent you get picky on how you spent that time. Do i want to waste 3 hours on trying that ultra hard level? Or do i want to play and enjoy an easy challenge where i can make some progress? U dont always want to get challenged in games or in real life, like u said.
I love Kaizo mario hacks! I do think its a disservice to the history of them to call Barb the godfather when T.Takemoto is the reason we use the word "Kaizo" in the first place. Great thinkers stand on the shoulders of giants. T. Takemoto inspired many creators including Panga, Barb, GC7, Freaking_Ha, Wyatt, who have all gone on to inspire many more! Gotta respect the legends of the genre. Also the criticisms of Nintendo and Mario Wonder seemed tacked on to a love letter to the kaizo mario rom hacking community. I think you would be better off just making a video about your passion for the community rather than trying to compare it to games that are very very different and intended for different audiences.
Yeah man, no shit. A company that makes games for an extremely wide audience isn't going to make the type of game only the extremest of extremists enjoy. Nintendo is a company that wants to make money. They can't update the same few things indefinitely, they can't make something only a few thousand people will enjoy. That's the reality of it. If you enjoy shooters, ULTRAKILL is a game that might scratch an itch because it is like a kaizo game, in the sense that the game is extremely flexible and there are so many ways to experiment with your weapons. The developer endorses this type of play. But it is a niche game for a reason. ULTRAKILL level of sales for a Nintendo game would be a huge failure.
I’m sorry but this video is coated in so much naivete about how gaming works nowadays. Mario Maker was a bit of an outlier in that sense, ‘cause I think the way it works is a bit more geared towards adults, but I can ASSURE you Nintendo DOES NOT CARE about their Mario games being a response to Kaizo ROM hacks. Ninendo right now is selling a mascot and a brand, and the last thing they worry about is having its movements be fluid and frame-perfect. Maybe Mario needed to be challenging and precise when your parents bought you a videogame every 2 months and you would’ve felt ripped off if it was too easy and you beat it in 3 hours. Nowadays, you have a plethora of games you can access on your computer for less than 10 bucks, and that includes a lot of fast paced, precise, fun platformers made on a budget. Mario cannot afford to be just 1 of many, especially because you need a specific console to play Mario games. Yup, Mario does not only carry the burden of having to sell his own games, he needs to sell entire consoles. So, fundamentally, Mario’s adjusted to sell to children and families. For children it’s harder to approach the PC market because you don’t really have any surefire mascots you can anchor to that carry the kind of brand of quality Mario does. Plus, navigating Steam and installing a PC game, even IF (and it’s not a small if) you have access to a PC in the first place is not that easy. The Switch solves all of these problems. You have memorable characters that you know will never fail you, you can just have your parents buy videogames at the store and play them, and you can carry your Switch around to the park or during long car rides. Mario is trying to be a memorable, fun character for kids whose games are always clean, simple and fun for the whole family. It will never have a level where you need to retry a 100 times to make a series of complicated perfectly-timed jumps while avoiding enemies, it will never have references to other videogames (especially ones Nintendo doesn’t even own the rights to), it will never have a photo of the developer chase you and, while the mechanical idea of using action-reaction to propel you around is fun, it will for sure never have a level with a gun in it.
As many others, I will disagree here. This is like comparing hiking on “regular” beautiful nature vs some of the hardest most inticate mountain climbing and caving routes. Yes the latter will be more exciting to a small group, and more power to them. But the rest of the trails don’t aim for the same and fail, at all.
Comparing a full triple A polished experience with something that comes out from mods and romhacks feels unfair to me. I grew up with SMW but never felt the need to play fanmade content, while Wonder was exactly the experience I wanted. Also, I love the physics of that game, but the regrab mechanic is new to me and I’ll keep it in mind if I will ever do a platform myself.
Can't compare Kaizo to official 2D Mario games. Both are created for totally different purposes. While Wonder lacks stuff like creative boss fights, it isn't logical to refer to Kaizo hacks for having them, instead refer to something like NSMB. You shouldn't say Wonder's physics are bad just because SMW has more precise ones and allow for more control in Kaizo.
I feel sometimes people that are into some kind of niche thing tend to forget how non-mainstream their ideas are... If Nintendo made a game with Kaizo levels of difficulty it would probably be super alienating to 99.999% of the playerbase. It's the same as watching a superhero movie and expecting the characters to talk about Hegelian metaphysics or something super dense like that. I'm a Touhou player and have finished some games on the hardest difficulty setting, I love that kind of challenge, but I'm not gonna judge Binding of Isaac for being easier, I'm gonna judge it on it's own merits. This video gives me cinema sins vibes, tbh. With a different approach it could've been "why I love this thing" instead of "I'm disappointed because a mainstream game doesn't cater to my super ultra mega niche interests"
100% agree with everything you said. but just gonna defend cinemasins here... it's purely a comedy/satire channel (not GOOD comedy/satire, but still) and people take it way too seriously.
I don't think that is what he is advocating for at all and he acknowledges that Kaizo is a separate thing that can get away with being more experimental. It isn't a fair comparison and he acknowledges that. The criticisms he's actually making towards Wonder are valid, especially the controls and pacing.
@@NCozy huh? his criticism towards wonder's controls was the single least valid criticism in the whole video. if he's played dozens of ROM hacks that are specifically tailored for mario world's physics, of COURSE he's going to prefer world's controls over wonder's. it's not a fair or appropriate criticism.
>nintendo fan only plays extreme version of game they grew up with >wishes Nintendo to make a game for their community of a few thousand many such cases!
I think the real solution is just for Nintendo to be more accepting of ROM hacks, fangames, etc. There will always be limits when one company controls how people engage with the art they publish. Nintendo has actually done a lot as far as official solutions go, what with Super Mario Maker and all, but it’s literally impossible for them to make something that can replace all the unofficial, creatively unlimited fan content out there.
Yeah, there's that line near the end of the video that rubbed me the wrong way because of that. "Nintendo will always be a company that makes things for children which means they have to consider how to make it playable by children. In a lot of ways, rom hacking feels like if Nintendo grew up with us and only made games for adults now." No, Nintendo are not making games for widdle babies while rom hackers make games for Real Men™. I'm sure that's not what Snoman intended to say, but that sure is what it felt like. Nintendo are making games that have to appeal to a wide audience while rom hackers can cater to a much more niche segment. That's what the real difference is. And sure, if you're in that niche that Kaizo hacks cater to, it's perfectly fine to be disappointed that the mainstream Mario games don't scratch that itch. But it's not because you grew up and Nintendo didn't.
Yeah, there is no precise information on what Mario Wonder’s budget was but it’s definitely in the millions and something tells me Nintendo doesn’t really wanna spend all that money on a game a collective 11 people will beat.
*WARNING: ESSAY!* We need more casual/standard ROM hacks that have the creativity and gimmicks of kaizo hacks. Nowadays, kaizo has become the de facto standard for SMW ROM hacks. This is because (1) hackers have become so accustomed to regular SMW gameplay that they need more extreme difficulty just to get that dopamine hit in, (2) the brainrot-fication of platformer level design. As a result, standard hack creators are being ignored and becoming a minority. First, hackers are pushing difficulty to the edge just because they’ve no-lifed the game. They design levels for themselves and not a broader audience, creating what is widely known as “ROM hack difficulty”. You demonstrate this cultural change in your video by brushing off standard hacks to the side as "alternatives to kaizo", when it should be that kaizo hacks are the alternative. Unfortunately for you, not everyone is some hard core gamer that needs CBT level design just to feel a sense of accomplishment. Most gamers have lives outside of playing bing-bing wahoo all day. Standard hacks appeal to a wider audience, even those who enjoy kaizo. Hackers should get out of their comfort zone and do something that appeals to people outside of their echo chamber. Secondly, the zoomer brainrot mind-virus has barged its way into the SMW hacking community. Levels are designed to appeal to the low attention spans of people under 20 years old: Quick reaction times needed, instant retries required, save scumming encouraged, set ups that aren’t sight-readable, memes within the level wasting Map16 and GFX space, pop music not intended to be played by a SNES, flashy high saturation colors, and mixed-matched graphics. I enjoy liberal level design, but kaizo hackers take it too far, making the level feel like watching a Mr. Beast video. To add on to this, streamers have disrupted how people design levels. People put trolls and crazy tricks in their level just to get a reaction from the streamer and chat. Mario levels have become “content” for e-celebs. Not everyone playing a hack is a streamer or UA-camr. Instead, levels should follow the basic level design format of introducing a new gimmick, making set ups based on that gimmick, and gradually increase difficulty until the end of the level. Now let’s get to the gimmicks. There are crazy innovative gameplay mechanics I’ve seen in kaizo hacks: carriable pipes, the level growing and shrinking via Mode 7, interacting with Layer 1 and Layer 2 at the same time. Don’t get me wrong, I love seeing new gimmicks in hacks. However, the difficult nature of kaizo weakens the level design and overall enjoyment players get from the gimmick. With standard hacks, you get a good gimmick, good level design, and difficulty that is easily digestible. In conclusion, the popularity of kaizo hacks brings the future of SMW hacking into concern. Kaizo and standard hacks can live alongside each other, but we need to stick to our roots and keep standard hacks alive. EDIT: The VLDC 14 hack even allowed Kaizo in it, an annual community event focused on standard difficulty levels!
Yeah totally agree with you. Rom hacks should be creative and more open for many kind of players. Producing more and more challenging hacks with inside jokes and obscure references only the fan base knows only makes it more appealing for people that like this kind of games. But it can be totally of putting for other ones. Like u said it would be great to have a creative SMW hack that compares to the original but exceeds in many other ways. I think SM64 hacks are more on the opposite of SMW, they usually try to make creative and interesting hacks and dont cater too much to the kaizo scene.
I agree With blue sheep. Especially with the VLDC14 Situation, cuz in older VLDC's level's deemed to kaizo would usually be given a bad score (some example's include into the mountain from VLDC3, & ahtletic synergy from VLDC11), & Now They're allowing Kaizo level's in VLDC14? That's stupid cuz not only A. VLDC is for Standard Level's, B. There's already a Contest series for kaizo level's.
Many Mario players never played a kaizo game or even knew about it. It's cool to gave them the same (or similar) expierence. At the end, Mario is a game for everyone, no just for kaizo players.
I used to think SMW was perfect platforming. I played and loved Wonder, then decided to go back to SMW for first time in over a decade and to be frank, it's not as good for me. This is not nostalgia blindness or anything like that because I tried Yoshi's island immediately after that and it was vastly superior. There's that whole thing about momentum and where we perceive the edge of a platform to be, etc. that time where mario effectively floated down a set of steps in SMW and I couldn't jump, that really frustrated me. After getting to 100% on all the levels and the special area, I felt like I hadn't really had as much of a good time. The challenge in Wonder just felt so much more fun for me and same with Yoshi's island. I think this is more about what type of a player we are. I have ADHD and am very adaptive. I'm not good with consistency and I need to be able to respond quickly to changing situations and the momentum and responsiveness of Wonder really worked for me. My movement in the special stages in Wonder was different each time, but that was okay because the game allowed for it.
mario world is nowhere near as good as everyone's hyped it up to be over the years. it's a very good game, but by modern standards there's zero aspects of the game that stand out as particularly remarkable. and yet so many people still call it the best platformer ever made, and one of the best games ever made. I did not play the same game as those people. it must be nostalgia. there's no other explanation.
@@jclkaytwo You have to consider when it was released. At that time it really was incredible. I played it at my friends in 1992 and it was just mindblowing how good it was compared to everything else that was available. The impact of that just lasted for such a long time. Super Mario 64 had a similar impact, but it became more apparent much sooner that the gameplay in that was very frustrating, and it aged fast.
@@CymruCreator I have very much considered when it was released. that is something that's important to consider, but if a game has aged compared to other games in the same genre it isn't fair to say that it's still the best game of its type. mario world is one of those games that has aged.
I don't agree with your point of view. I think romhacks and current Mario games are two completely different things, which differ in what kind of approach they have: the experience approach or the difficulty approach. A kaizo can be as difficult as it wants, but in exchange it has to sacrifice the experience (level design, artistic design, fun, etc.). It may come closer to the experience, but kaizos will always end up being a very artificial block arrangement.
the bubble power-up originated in NSMBU tho. it's the ability of the blue baby yoshi. that ROM hack was probably influenced by it. anyway that aside, this video feels like bad faith criticism. you're holding mario wonder up to an expectation that the game itself clearly wasn't intending to meet, and criticizing it for not meeting those misplaced expectations and being exactly what you wanted (i.e. a "response" to mario world ROM hacks). you could've easily made this same "ROM hacks are awesome" video without adding in all this weird mario wonder bashing. honestly it feels like your complaints with the physics of mario wonder vs mario world only apply in the context of ROM hacks that are specifically tailored for mario world's physics (which is what you're used to, since you've played dozens of them). in that context sure maybe mario world's physics are better, but in the context of the base games, it really isn't a fair or even appropriate criticism. it just seems like a case of "it's different, therefore it's worse". and criticizing mario wonder for being made for children to be able to play is just pure nonsense. mario world was easy in the same way. it's silly to criticize a historically family-friendly video game franchise for not increasing in difficulty as the years go on just to cater to your extremely niche preferences. regarding your complaint about the wonder effects, I strongly disagree. I think adding too many gimmick wonder effects for the sake of "memorability" would distract from the gameplay. having some wonder effects just be "enemy but huge" makes the game's most unique wonder effects pop out more, rather than those same wonder effects getting grating due to the constant gimmicks being thrown at you.
Yeah I agree with you. The Mario games are supposed to be playable by anyone and that's a good thing. I wasn't really impressed with Wonder and didn't end up finishing it because of the boredom, but I had a good amount of fun and introduced a 5-year-old to 2D Mario. It'll be nice if we get some kind of official hardcore Mario option, but I mean if you like ROM hacks, just play those! You don't have to wait 6 years for one either
@@The_SOB_II well to be fair, if you want an official hardcore mario game, you got lost levels. (but if you want a _good_ hardcore mario game... don't get your hopes up)
The Kaizo community is phenomenal, so many creative, talented people making genuinely amazing creations. But people like you who go on the internet and do the tired old "wHy cAnT a bIlLiOn DoLlAr CoMpAnY mAkE gAmEs aS gOoD aS tHiS gUy????" schtick are a big part of the reason Kaizo isn't more popular. People just roll their eyes and go back to what they were doing rather than actually looking into the community and realizing how brilliant it is. This video is basically the "SEGA, HIRE THIS MAN!!!" meme, but stretched out to 12 minutes, and completely unironic.
As someone who's first Mario game is New Super Mario DS and played the newer ones afterwards inccluding Wonder, Mario World physics are horrendous to me. Way too slippery and uncontrollable, Wonder blows that out of the water for me. It's a matter of preference.
The modern Mario games and modern games in general tend to "cheat" (for lack of a better term) to make them feel more responsive. The NSMB games and Wonder are more intuitive games that aren't as responsive whereas SMW has a bit of a learning curve but is more responsive.
9:22 hyped to see a channel I've been watching for ages feature a thing I made! Super happy to see your channel active again, and to hear you enjoyed playing it. I'm slowly but surely embarking on my own indie gamedev journey, so maybe it won't be the last you hear of me (:
I was literally just rewatching your kaizo series and wondering if people had done the same for mario wonder yet, the timing is so good it's a little eerie
Never understood how brutally difficult platformers can be considered fun. I played and beat Lost Levels with Luigi as a teenager and it was anything but fun. I pushed myself to do it to prove to myself that I could. The best Mario games are challenging but fair like Super Mario Bros 3.
the lost levels is a very sadistic kind of hard, kaizo is closer to something like meat boy where the levels are very short (but... i don't really like kaizo honestly, the precision is really annoying to me)
My favorite SMW romhack Yt channel is raocow because he's been around for so long and makes beating each game super obtainable. His vids have definitely inspired me to get into playing romhacks for SMW, even if I haven't taken that first step yet.
At first, I kept thinking how unfair this comparison is because Mario, in general, is kind of cursed with having really amazing games casually, but if your looking for more of a challenge and want to test your skills, you may have a little less than 10 levels that’ll satisfy your need. 10:40 But I think you summarized it here perfectly. Nintendo is not only for children, but for everyone. I don’t think they could ever release a Mario game with the same level of difficulty as even the easier Kazio hacks. I play more modded Celeste maps/games cause it feels more accessible to me(if that makes sense) but I’ll probably give some Mario hacks a try! Good video as always ❤
it's the same with Pokemon rom hacks, there's a lot of edgy junk but when there's a good one damn is it good. Unbound & Prism are my favorite pokemon games, period.
Great video and all, but just because something's impossible for 99.99% of the human population does not mean it's good, while Mario wonder has some let downs, it is not trying to compete with kaizo hacks and should not be judged by their standards. Also just because you're used to a certain platformer's physics doesn't mean they're better than other platformer's physics.
stance on new super luigi u cause honestly it feels like an official romhack of nsmbu with every level being remixed the game being overall harder and the level design being far more interesting
Disagree I think both are amazing!!!!!!!!!! Super Mario Bros Wonder and New Super Mario World 1 The Twelve Magic Orbs Powered Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Both 11/10 Masterpieces!!!!!!!!!!!!
You should check out Beeny. It’s sort of a spiritual successor to the original Donkey Kong Country trilogy, but the gameplay is very different. Plus, it only costs 99 cents.
I've been growing up with SM64 ROM Hacks, because those pretty much gave me, while familar, different experiences on Super Mario 64, which it's my favorite game of all time and it's absolutely a blast to play them Now that the community has been expanding a ton, with the game being decompiled and anyone can now make custom codes on it in anything they want, it pretty much expanded new horizons for the SM64 ROM Hacking community and some of the best hacks in the recent times came out because of it I really recommend Balloon Slider Mania for example, the whole game was transformed into a really good slide game that feels like an underrated gem N64 game
This feels like the extended version of your review for Mario Wonder on Backloggd but in video form. I recommend checking out Psycho Waluigi. It's very interesting
I mean, the mostly Mario content that you showed was "kaizo". Nintendo can't made a Mario kaizo game. These games need to be "playable" for a more casual crowd. However, sure a post game kaizo world would have been nice.
While I agree and found the video interesting, saying "Nintendo makes games for children" is unfortunate. I like accessible games, and I wish you had said instead that Nintendo limits its creativity not to lean too far away from its concepts, which is a very unambitious attitude.
yeah, but that bubble powerup "code" specifically has been a thing in smw hacking for a long while now. feel like he could've used different footage, especially when in other hacks it's even the same color scheme as wonder for mario and luigi's clothing
@@alexanderthegreat-mx5zu It's unlikely Nintendo aren't aware of romhacking and Kaizo, it's ultimately a community based around modifying their games and not an insignificant one
While I can agree that fangames and rom hacks do crazy things you'll never see in an official Nintendo product, you lost me with the focus on kaizo. It's cool, but that approach to level design ain't it for me
So many amazing ASM Mario hacks now that feel like new games but most of them are fucking kaizo which just ruins it for me (and I like some good platforming challenge like clearing Super Meat Boy or Celeste). At least most Sonic hacks are playable past the first screen without dedicating your whole life to them.
"Nintendo only makes games for children! ROM hacks are what happened if Nintendo grew up!" Snoman said, as Nintendo just released an M-rated expansion pack for NSO AND announced a fully-Nintendo M-rated horror mystery game. Not to mention how this statement might alienate a big part of your audience, considering that you used to make (And still do make) videos praising Nintendo for their good game design, and those videos pulled Nintendo-loving adults towards your channel. Saying "If you like playing easy Nintendo games, you're a child." out of nowhere would probably come across as a big, polarizing shock to many of your fans.
Not exactly the same, but I've felt other platformers have already surpassed 3d Mario games in certain aspects. A Hat in Time and Psyconauts 2 pushed the envelope on what you can do with level design, environmental storytelling, presentation, main/side activities and, specially, bossfights. Mario Odyssey is great and very polished, but outside of the controls and production value, I feel those two games exceed the quality of Mario Odyssey in all aforementioned aspects. Heck, I don't think Mario has a boss as mechanically interesting as The Snatcher.
For standard hacks i reccomend: Sicari and its sequel- essentially a whole new game with original characters, enemies, graphics, music. If you were to tell me it's a mod of smw i won't believe you Smw Central Production 2: A great rom hack with custom graphics, new bosses, great level design.
Wouldn't super Mario maker 2 be Nintendo's answer of allowing ppl to make kaizo levels? The mainline 2D games would not sell like they do if they weren't accessible. And I personally found the final challenge levels in Wonder extremely difficult
7:19 I was thinking Friday Night Funkin' or something. But anyway, those hacks are pretty mindblowing like the references to other games (I think Wario in that airship that you can blow up in this old game about guiding bucket-head Mario is actually a reference to Sonic) plus just these physics and gimmicks like playing as an airship in the overworld or riding some new kind of Yoshi. It would be cool if perhaps there were more games (maybe a Paper Mario but also a mainline one) where Peach and Bowser were sometimes seen throughout the game despite being the main antagonist and main 'one that needs saving' just like in Kirby and Zelda. Something cool would be where Mario and Peach are both trying to find each other and for example there might be a city and Mario and Peach are driving a car and see each other as they go past but aren't able to stop and that would be a funny reference to the Vanya & Five meme. It is cool how Bowser is seen throughout TTYD by the way.
What do think of SMBX? Mario and Luigi there have their SMW movement. And there have been plenty of things done with the Platformer Engine, LunaLua, Xtech and 38A
I wonder if you will enjoy playing Celeste mods. Celeste mods also feature a wealth of creativity and polish that I wager can rival romhacks, Celeste is also my pick for the best movement system in a 2D platformer, It is incredibly deep with the base game not even scratching the surface of what you can do
This video is almost something I really wanted to see on UA-cam, a discussion of how much creativity and polish goes into the kaizo scene, with a desire to make levels that are fun first and foremost. I think a lot of people have the impression that Kaizo is made only with the purpose of trolling the player and being annoying, when a lot of creators put so much effort into refining their hacks and adjusting the gameplay to be enjoyable for those willing to play them. Something I have noticed is that the kaizo community also tend to highlight the hacks that are the most fun rather than stuff made to be the most difficult (although I guess that's more the case for SMW than mario maker) Unfortunately that aspect seems to have been drowned out by the dismissal of the official games so that's what a lot of your audience will cling onto, rather than the merits of Kaizo
I think there's something wholesome about all these Mario rom hacks. To think so many people have been so captivated by this silly game series about an italian plumber fighting a giant turtle that they've made countless versions of their own spin on it, wanting to add on to the games in their own special way. It's like a love letter to Mario and his universe. The fans love Mario in a way Nintendo can't, I'd argue.
So cool to see someone make this type of content about kaizo smw, playing hard mario games was a dream I had for most of my life, so when I discovered smw hacks in 2016 it completely changed my life
For me personally I enjoy a challenge, but there's a point where I cannot be bothered. For example I tried a friends copy of Super Meat Boy and it turned me right off. I'm also a fan of being able to just get a game and have it work without any effort on my part, so romhacks and modding have never been something I've gotten into. That being said I do enjoy watching Kaizo stuff, as while I will never be interested in doing it myself it is fun to watch and experience the creativity of the community. It doesn't matter how good a dev is, a community will always be able to put out more stuff then any one team just do to the size difference.
Comparing and individual Nintendo game to an illegal romhaking roms which nintendo don't even use as inspiration and saying that Mario Wonder is bad for that reason is really genius idea!
Love the video! I would strongly recommend you play yume nikki and its fangames. While not difficult at all, these games show the ways their hardware (RPG Maker) can be pushed in similar ways to how Rom Hacks push Mario World, with interesting concepts and beautiful worlds to walk through. The original game is free on steam and its fangames are free as well. I cannot recommend it enough.
I loved Super Mario Wonder, but I played it with 3 friends - probably wouldn't have been particularly interesting on my own. I'll check out some of these hacks!
@@JohSmith a plumber for all seasons is my first recommendation. great level design and outstanding visuals and music. it's also normal difficulty too so no need to worry.
Whats with the weirdos in the comments acting like the criticism you had was about how Mario wonder was too easy? I feel like a lot of people just didn't watch the video and came here to hate because they saw the word kaizo in the title. Maybe this is because of people being broadly unfamiliar with rom hacking in general but I absolutely took your points as more of an expression of the creativity in the rom hacking scene (both kaizo and not, because no not all rom hacks are kaizo) vs how much of mario wonder felt like it didn't live up to the potential it could have had. And I don't really understand how someone could earnestly watch this and takeaway that your opinion was just that Mario Wonder wasn't good because it was too easy.
I think it's just easy to get the wrong impression from the title. I now understand where Snowman was coming from since they have a strong preference for World's control, difficulty, and physics. The title initially intrigued me to watch since I did enjoy Wonder, though the bosses were underwhelming, and I've never played a Super Mario World rom hack, so there's a bit of unfamiliarity I had changed my initial opinion, though, since Snowman talks about other Non Kaizo rom hacks and even beginner friendly Kaizo. I'm unsure if I agree with his conclusion, though. While it is true Nintendo makes games with children in mind, I don't think it makes much of a negative impact on the overall quality. I mean, it's the same company that gave us world, right? Rom hacks seem as if Nintendo grew up with us and were for adults but considering the resources and unlimited creativity the hacking community has, I believe it's a bit of an unfair comparison.
Part of me wonders if a popular streamer watched this and complained or something like that! The ideas given in this video do not seem so wildly incendiary as to receive this kind of response, especially for what I would associate with a video with this watch count! The idea that these kaizo romhacks are completely alienating completely ignores many of your broader points! The idea that some concepts used in kaizo are "non-nintindo-able" holds a lot of merit (like death used for progression, incorporation of elements from other series, etc.), I'd even say that such concepts are compelling and would widen appeal in some cases! On top of that, you go out of your way to mention romhacks that aren't even "kaizo/difficulty" ones, plus ones that are entry level ones! It seems to me like people had already turned off their receptiveness to seriously considering your ideas by the time they got there! The complaints that your slight distaste for the newer 2d mario movement approach is simple favoritism also comes across as odd to me! I grew up on mario 3 (the gba remaster of the nes mario 3) and when I moved to the wii 2d mario games (new super mario brothers, iirc) I completely bounced off of it; I was probably 11 or 12 when I played that (if even that!), yet the controls were so offputting that I didn't even get half way through the game! At an age where nostalgia didn't even apply to me yet too! There is certainly reason to favor the older series' controls, and the idea that modern 2d mario is "the modern thing that's here to stay" instead of one development approach seems lacking to me. Great video imo (enough for me to write this a second time (in a very different way though sadly) because my internet went out right when I hit send and it disappeared; very frustrating, but I feel like your video deserves good feedback and a bit of pushback against the negative responses)! Next time I'm bored and looking for something more novel I'll definitely try to keep kaizo mario in mind!
I just wish that they had these things One more world (candy world was a missed opportunity) More full levels Better bosses Mire flower powerups, its in the flower kingdom after all. I have ideas for a Lightning flower and Earth flower.
Im not a kaizo mario guy, but all the criticisms of Mario Wonder were the same ones I had with it. Speaks to the let down it is, its fun, but not what I expected after the hype from reviews.
I haven’t played Wonder (disclaimer); GPW3 is what got me into starting Streaming again, the Kaizo community is so great and glad I’m a part of it. I got raided by Panga on the first night of GPW3 release and I’m still going to this day. I’ve watched people like Juz, Carl, Barb for so long and I’ve played Kaizo for many years (GPW was my first SMW hack so many years ago LOL), they’ve inspired me to play Kaizo, especially Juz and I love their communities as well most of all, it helps keep me going
I don't think Nintendo is looking to "catch up" to romhacks. I'm just happy they're more expressive and creative with Mario at all.
@@nfugitt89 Yeah, it's an absurd claim.
True!!!!!
I just want Nintendo to be more creative with Mario, so that romhackers will be more inspired and do even more creative stuff than Nintendo. It's a chain reaction. I love to see fans push the limits with ideas that are conceived by Nintendo but only really played with.
I'm gonna be real, the part about the physics really just felt like you've played hundreds of hours of SMW romhacks, so that game's physics are what you're personally extremely used to, so anything else is going to feel wrong
Yeah. It would be cool to have some subtler SMW quirks added back in, but it would also be cool if SMW had modern Mario abilities like ground pounds and midair spins, so no system is perfect. If Nintendo refused to iterate on SMW physics, we would have never experienced those features in a 2D Mario game.
Yeah I was gonna say this lol, Mario Wonder feels pretty great to a casual player. I’ve tried to play through Mario World and it can feel pretty awkward to someone who hasn’t gotten so used to it.
@@thatdanjamesguy.330 mario world's "quirks" are so subtle that they basically only make a difference in the world of ROM hacks. as far as controls, physics, and moveset go, I'd say mario wonder is perfect.
exactly
I do have to wonder what they were thinking with spin jumps in Wonder. It has virtually no use cases that a regular jump doesn't.
I think this is the first time I've seen one of your videos and just wholeheartedly disagreed. I like romhacks, but they're nothing like an official game. Kaizo is a whole can of worms but it requires basically learning the game mechanics like a new language, it's rewarding and fun, but it's a lot of work and investment. I feel like kaizo hacks and mario platformers have completely different goals and achieve very different things. I think it's weird to say kaizo mario is just better than other mario platformers.
Also, my friends and I love the scavenger hunt levels. I'd love more design like that where it's an open area meant to be explored and poked at. It's a great pace breaker from the action stages.
just what u wanted to say man, thanks :)
If Nintendo focused on making games for Kaizo audience they’d be out of business in 5 years.
For me, ROM hacks are cute experiments that make for fun UA-cam videos but they’ll never replace my interest in a real brand new Mario game. It’s not apples and oranges; it’s apples and bricks.
Exactly
I enjoyed SMW rom hacks and Wonder each quite a bit. Wonder isn't trying to have the same physics/be the same type of game and I'm glad it doesnt.
The video would be better if it talked about how wonderful romhacks could be without putting down Wonder and treating the regular hacks as an alternative and lesser option compared to Kaizo. Not everyone wants or likes all the kaizo. As someone that enjoys SM64 hacks when the community obsessed with QSLG's i lost so much interest in getting into the kaizo that it wasn't till very recently i started playing them again and even then i only play select kaizo and nothing more. Most of the time i be enjoying intermediate SM64 hacks.
the idea of it being made "for kids" or "for adults' is kinda faulty. The average adult even average adult gamer is not skilled enough for kaizo and I'm sure the kaizo community has plenty of teenagers.
This video combines the aspect I love the most from youtube with the thing I hate most about any internet discussion.
I love seeing someone talk about stuff they love and speak so passionately about it.
On the other hand I hate when people say that something is bad because "It's different from what I want so it's objectively bad/worse than the thing I love."
Tbh I think the second thing is more of a side effect of writing smooth scripts. It’s usually implied that people understand their opinion is subjective but constantly saying “I think”, “in my opinion”, etc. would be tiring to hear, so it gets cut.
The Joseph Anderson video “Subjectivity is Implied” articulates this well … in my opinion. :P
@@thatdanjamesguy.330 I decided to rewatch the video and I admit I was a bit harsh in my phrasing.
However I think the thing that annoys me the most is the fact that Wonder is only brought up so he can say how it's not as good as the ROM hacks. This video could have cut Wonder out of the script and 90% of the video would be exactly the same.
@@Tanner-Barlow exactly. the random mario wonder bashing doesn't further the point of the video at all. it's just so out of place.
@@jclkaytwoI can see his criticisms regarding the engine and stuff like that and maybe he isn't much of a fan of the games unskippable dialogue sections but his critique on unremarkable wonder effects is insane. I guess he wasn't a fan of turning into a ball, before outrunning a giant ball yourself as the game tilts the screen in two directions, or enemies that become popcorn, or metal mario, the Neverending story dragon, king boo's musical number, isometric plane shift where a section of the level becomes an entirely different one due to said perspective shift, pirate ship, Buffalo hordes, etc. The list goes on. Not to mention even when they're reused it's usually in a different context and the game also has levels that are actually nonlinear and require clever use of the gimmick(the desert switch palace). It fulfills so,÷ of the different game design principles he loves(using all the buffalo, teaching without telling, respetively) was very surprised to see that he didn't love the game. Exploration of the overworld is also a thing now as well, which I thought he would bring up but guess not. The irony when he complains about bosses when smws boss fights are also ass if not worse.
@@thesnatcher3616 honestly I don't see the criticisms about mario wonder's engine, imo it's far more refined than mario world's engine. he just prefers mario world's engine because he's played hundreds of mario world hacks, so that's what he'll always be used to. anyway yeah the wonder effect criticism is silly. did he want every single wonder effect to be a crazy gimmick that completely changes up the gameplay? because that would've made the game more stale if anything. regarding the boss fight criticism, it really seems like a trend for mario world fans to criticize mario wonder for issues that mario world also had... which is something they'll gloss over.
These romhacks look very cool! but I'm so glad Nintendo didn't do a Kaizo ultra-hard game to satisfy a niche fanbase.
There is a lot more rom hacks than just kaizo. Check smw central
Just wanted to add that I think that Snowman's opinion on SMWonder is bang on the money. It is made with children in mind, or more specifically parents playing with their children. Most of the game seems to be at a 2 star difficulty, which is quite constraining in an inventive level design sense.
I'm getting older I'm getting crapper at games but jeez this game is overly easy. I haven't had this problem with other console Mario games, and it's because it's so children can beat it. Dang (for me!). Being ultra-hard isn't what I want but being a pushover isn't, either 😂
@@OSW am I the only one who feels like the visuals are the only thing that carried the game? I get that the game is supposed to be easy, but like you said, it feels so easy to the point where the game just plays itself. Heck, even somewhat recent Nintendo games like Odyssey didn't feel like this. The bosses being "Bowser Jr, but..." certainly didn't help either
I don't understand the argument of "it's for kids" either. Sure, it is. But even as a little kid, I was perfectly fine with the older, more difficult Mario games. I think people underestimate the intelligence of a child and dumb things down a little too much, but that's a whole other can of worms lol.
He isn't talking about only Kaizo hacks or presenting the brutal difficulty as a necessary thing, he's talking about the creativity in Mario hacks in general
Sorry i have to disagree with your video.
What i do agree with is that ROM Hacks are extremely creative and push the boundaries of what mario games can do, and what mechanics it can have.
The problem is that you compare casual friendly mario games to an extreme niche of really hard romhacks. Nintendo games are great because they are open to many people and different playstyles. Making something more difficult doesnt make it automatically better even if there are great mechanics. It depends on what your taste is. Its clear that you are very biased because you express your love of these hacks so much, and that is completely cool. But saying that kaizo hacks are like mario games for adults is a big stretch.
I love the designs of these kaizo hacks, the music and the mechanics. But all of this is locked behind such a steep learning curve that only a fraction of people will play and enjoy it. Even if youre a really good player, you dont always want to have a super hard challenge when u come home from work. Kaizo games also forces the player to play levels in one certain style. There is little room for error and you cant complete a level in a different way. This kind of game design works great when u want to focus on certain level mechanics but it also limits how people can play your game.
I would have agree more with you if you would have shown us comparable mario hacks that are super creative and also friendly for casual and hardcore players alike. Yes u did mention some but youre whole argument came clearly out of the kaizo hacks.
What I'm seeing is that there are two types of romhack:
- ones that focus on difficulty and flow
- ones that are easy but pretty/thematic/creative
Wonder fits into the later, but is super pretty.
Tbh this is exactly why I hate the Celeste community, I don't wanna have to learn how to play the two HARDEST tricks in the game or even stuff that's straight up not taught in there, just to have more maps to play. It's pretty much impossible for me to play any Celeste mod for this reason nowadays (aside from the collabs but even those are needlessly tight as hell aside from those made by my friend)
The genre is niche and SUPPOSED to stay niche. No shame on you for liking it but at the end of the day the Mario series is supposed to stay as a 2D platformer for BEGINNERS. Not everything needs to be some speedrunner type shite
Just look for more beginner mods. Celeste is a short game and a lot of people who stuck around for modded were players looking for more, people inevitably got better and pushed the game with mechanics that weren't explored in the main game
I don't get why you would hate the community for this, and there's quite a lot of mods on the easier side if you are willing to look for them
Just saying but JUMP and JUMP 1/2 are far beyond the skill of what a casual player is able to beat, even the earlier easier levels, I don't think a mainstream game could do that type of difficulty.
It's great that ROM hacks exists, but ultimately they cater to a very niche audience. As an adult with limited time , I'm glad that not every Mario game is a Lost Levels (or worse) ordeal, even if those can be an occasional fun novelty.
Speaking of growing up with your audience, isn't that what Sony did, and now they're struggling due to a lack of "kiddie" games?
I feel like the critiques of the physics could be because of experience, right? From what i see i think id prefer world’s physics but wonder’s are for the casual base as theyre easier to pick up and play, so for that they are better even if worse, but you being this deep in world’s physics would make any other platformer feel like it has less control because for you that IS the case
While Nintendo might never cater to the niche that is the Kaizo community due to its own limitations (which is totally fine and I don't want to use phrasing like "cannot reach the level of" because that's a direct comparison and depends on personal opinion), I hope the Kaizo scene can cause some talented indie devs to take inspiration from the experience Kaizo provided and turn it into fresh new games.
Maddy Thorson (one of the main creators of Celeste) is an excellent example of this. I can't say for sure that she's in the Kaizo community before Celeste, but Wikipedia said she has worked on SMW ROM hacks at around the same time that Celeste Classic was out. Celeste, while widely regarded as a hard game, is still manageable and has a complete difficulty curve, from easy-moderate to extremely difficult stuff, which I find most Kaizo games I know really lack.
Yeah, building cadences that make sense and welcoming the players does not mean making easy games. Most kaizo games I've played fail to deliver a proper pacing curve and introduce mechanical challenges that can be twisted and evolved before asking a lot from the player.
@@sergisubirats7791Kaizo is not like a commercial game in that you do not expect everyone playing your hack to have zero experience with the physics. They are made for people who are really into the original game and it's recommended to spend time learning the mechanics before throwing yourself into harder stuff
Saying they fail in delivering the experience of a casual game isn't fair when it's catering to its own audience
I'm gonna be real for a second and say that I actually prefer Super Mario Bros. Wonder over most Kaizo Hacks for one simple reason. As Mario games, none of them feel like they were made with Mario in mind, as a character or as a franchise, and what that means is that Mario is made for everyone, and I do mean everyone, Nintendo had that figured out by 2005. But normal ROM Hacks that try to emulate Mario in a more authentic manner, I might as well consider them canon, given I also played Sonic Mania which was a fan game published by Sega.
But as a character and franchise that was engineered to cater to everyone on earth regardless of age, skill, or enjoyment, Mario is unique in the sense that if you were to alter it completely, you would either be missing the point, or you would end up making a new franchise. Kinda like what I'm doing.
That being said, if it were an entirely new franchise made with the bones of Super Mario World's source code and new mechanics these Hacks bring to the table, I'd be singing a different tune. And happy to say, Celeste was pretty much that game. And I want more of that.
It's always interesting to me to hear SMW ROM hacks being talked about as primarily Kaizo with standard hacks as a bit of an addendum, because I remember a time (late 2000s, early 2010s) where it was very much the other way round.
It's like two different subcultures these days!
The problem for me is, that Kaizo has almost _completely_ overtaken traditional hacks. To the point where if any visually interesting SMW romhack that comes out 9/10 it's a Kaizo style game.
@@DarkIceKrabby there's been some really really good non-kaizo stuff recently that's not ultra hard, look at Attempt At A Normal Hack and Spatial Whirl for example
yo is that the real whiteyoshiegg
@@DarkIceKrabby Yeah an example that really adds merit to your statement is a kaizo hack called hacker's dreams. Sure it Has Tons of cool music ports, ASM, Graphics, heck even overworld cutsences, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that it's still a kaizo hack (& a hard one at that). People are just gonna see a walkthrough of the hack, say "That's cool" & never actually play it because it's kaizo & they'll probably wont even beat the 1st level.
I wish i had gotten into SMW hacks a lot earlier. I discovered the Super Mario World Central way back, but i was so new to the whole thing i had no idea how it worked.
I do recall watching numerous people play them, though, like AzureBlade.
I love kaizo romhacks but the physics in Wonder also felt great to me. It was also nice to be able to play the game with my daughter fully (she played with me on every single level). Usually some of the endgame levels I have to play solo because they're too hard for her to tag along with. While it wasn't as challenging as I'd have preferred in the end game, it was a fresh and new experience to be able to play a FULL Mario game co-op with her.
I felt like this video would have been exactly the same without mentioning Wonder at all. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that a mainline Mario title doesn't cater towards a tiny niche market of players that want something insanely hard (I include myself in that niche market btw).
You can lift something up without putting something else down.
I don't exactly disagree with the video... But something about this rubs me the wrong way, and I can't quite place my finger on it.
Its kind of conceited to say that they "perfected" platformer movement in 1991, when you've spent years playing those kinds of games. Its like a speedrunner saying that Super Mario 64 "perfected" 3D movement... They _didn't._ That's your own bias showing.
And I also think its kind of ridiculous to hold Nintendo to the absurdly high standards of ROM hacks, because ROM hacks have no limitations to what they can do. They don't have to worry about public image, they don't have to worry about copyright (usually), and they certainly don't have to worry about Karen trying to sue them for having guns in a Mario game (obviously I'm exaggerating, but you get my point). They have decades worth of fans that all have their own expectations and opinions. Nintendo has been playing it safe for years and the second they actually start flexing their creativity its "not good enough" compared to fan creations. :/
This may be a hot take, but I HATE hard games... I don't want to try and fail and try and fail over and over again just to eventually get it right. I just want to play the darn game. As a bit of a completionist, I enjoy having a chill and relaxing (but not boring) time completing everything a game has to offer... But hard levels are like hitting a brick wall. _Especially_ if they don't have frequent checkpoints. People complain that Mario Wonder is "too easy," but I hated every second of the Special World (and don't even mention that stupid Final Badge Challenge). I hate it when completion is locked behind challenge levels. Hard modes should ALWAYS be an optional thing. I can beat hard levels, but I don't enjoy it. And that's my issue with them. They aren't fun. The only gratification I feel is knowing I never have to do it again anytime soon.
To say that easy games are "made for kids" is also just insulting... I'm a grown man but I am perfectly content playing non-challenging games, thank you very much. The way I see it, life is hard enough as it is. _Playing games is for having fun, and not everyone is a masochist_ (once again, this is hyperbole to get my point across, so don't @ me).
Funny enough i like "hard" games and a good challenge. But when u get older and dont have so much time to spent you get picky on how you spent that time. Do i want to waste 3 hours on trying that ultra hard level? Or do i want to play and enjoy an easy challenge where i can make some progress? U dont always want to get challenged in games or in real life, like u said.
I love Kaizo mario hacks! I do think its a disservice to the history of them to call Barb the godfather when T.Takemoto is the reason we use the word "Kaizo" in the first place. Great thinkers stand on the shoulders of giants. T. Takemoto inspired many creators including Panga, Barb, GC7, Freaking_Ha, Wyatt, who have all gone on to inspire many more! Gotta respect the legends of the genre.
Also the criticisms of Nintendo and Mario Wonder seemed tacked on to a love letter to the kaizo mario rom hacking community. I think you would be better off just making a video about your passion for the community rather than trying to compare it to games that are very very different and intended for different audiences.
I think it would make sense to call Barb the godfather whereas you would call Takemoto the Grandfather. If that makes any sense
Yeah man, no shit. A company that makes games for an extremely wide audience isn't going to make the type of game only the extremest of extremists enjoy. Nintendo is a company that wants to make money. They can't update the same few things indefinitely, they can't make something only a few thousand people will enjoy. That's the reality of it.
If you enjoy shooters, ULTRAKILL is a game that might scratch an itch because it is like a kaizo game, in the sense that the game is extremely flexible and there are so many ways to experiment with your weapons. The developer endorses this type of play. But it is a niche game for a reason. ULTRAKILL level of sales for a Nintendo game would be a huge failure.
I’m sorry but this video is coated in so much naivete about how gaming works nowadays.
Mario Maker was a bit of an outlier in that sense, ‘cause I think the way it works is a bit more geared towards adults, but I can ASSURE you Nintendo DOES NOT CARE about their Mario games being a response to Kaizo ROM hacks. Ninendo right now is selling a mascot and a brand, and the last thing they worry about is having its movements be fluid and frame-perfect.
Maybe Mario needed to be challenging and precise when your parents bought you a videogame every 2 months and you would’ve felt ripped off if it was too easy and you beat it in 3 hours.
Nowadays, you have a plethora of games you can access on your computer for less than 10 bucks, and that includes a lot of fast paced, precise, fun platformers made on a budget.
Mario cannot afford to be just 1 of many, especially because you need a specific console to play Mario games. Yup, Mario does not only carry the burden of having to sell his own games, he needs to sell entire consoles.
So, fundamentally, Mario’s adjusted to sell to children and families. For children it’s harder to approach the PC market because you don’t really have any surefire mascots you can anchor to that carry the kind of brand of quality Mario does. Plus, navigating Steam and installing a PC game, even IF (and it’s not a small if) you have access to a PC in the first place is not that easy.
The Switch solves all of these problems. You have memorable characters that you know will never fail you, you can just have your parents buy videogames at the store and play them, and you can carry your Switch around to the park or during long car rides.
Mario is trying to be a memorable, fun character for kids whose games are always clean, simple and fun for the whole family. It will never have a level where you need to retry a 100 times to make a series of complicated perfectly-timed jumps while avoiding enemies, it will never have references to other videogames (especially ones Nintendo doesn’t even own the rights to), it will never have a photo of the developer chase you and, while the mechanical idea of using action-reaction to propel you around is fun, it will for sure never have a level with a gun in it.
As many others, I will disagree here. This is like comparing hiking on “regular” beautiful nature vs some of the hardest most inticate mountain climbing and caving routes. Yes the latter will be more exciting to a small group, and more power to them. But the rest of the trails don’t aim for the same and fail, at all.
Comparing a full triple A polished experience with something that comes out from mods and romhacks feels unfair to me. I grew up with SMW but never felt the need to play fanmade content, while Wonder was exactly the experience I wanted. Also, I love the physics of that game, but the regrab mechanic is new to me and I’ll keep it in mind if I will ever do a platform myself.
Can't compare Kaizo to official 2D Mario games. Both are created for totally different purposes.
While Wonder lacks stuff like creative boss fights, it isn't logical to refer to Kaizo hacks for having them, instead refer to something like NSMB.
You shouldn't say Wonder's physics are bad just because SMW has more precise ones and allow for more control in Kaizo.
I feel sometimes people that are into some kind of niche thing tend to forget how non-mainstream their ideas are... If Nintendo made a game with Kaizo levels of difficulty it would probably be super alienating to 99.999% of the playerbase. It's the same as watching a superhero movie and expecting the characters to talk about Hegelian metaphysics or something super dense like that.
I'm a Touhou player and have finished some games on the hardest difficulty setting, I love that kind of challenge, but I'm not gonna judge Binding of Isaac for being easier, I'm gonna judge it on it's own merits.
This video gives me cinema sins vibes, tbh. With a different approach it could've been "why I love this thing" instead of "I'm disappointed because a mainstream game doesn't cater to my super ultra mega niche interests"
Well put!
yeahhh i am not really a fan of this video's take and i think you explained it well
100% agree with everything you said. but just gonna defend cinemasins here... it's purely a comedy/satire channel (not GOOD comedy/satire, but still) and people take it way too seriously.
I don't think that is what he is advocating for at all and he acknowledges that Kaizo is a separate thing that can get away with being more experimental. It isn't a fair comparison and he acknowledges that. The criticisms he's actually making towards Wonder are valid, especially the controls and pacing.
@@NCozy huh? his criticism towards wonder's controls was the single least valid criticism in the whole video. if he's played dozens of ROM hacks that are specifically tailored for mario world's physics, of COURSE he's going to prefer world's controls over wonder's. it's not a fair or appropriate criticism.
>nintendo fan only plays extreme version of game they grew up with
>wishes Nintendo to make a game for their community of a few thousand
many such cases!
I think the real solution is just for Nintendo to be more accepting of ROM hacks, fangames, etc. There will always be limits when one company controls how people engage with the art they publish.
Nintendo has actually done a lot as far as official solutions go, what with Super Mario Maker and all, but it’s literally impossible for them to make something that can replace all the unofficial, creatively unlimited fan content out there.
>1 case
>”many such cases”
@@vacantile someone hasn't seen the pokemon nuzlocke or competitive smash communities
@@furutapark I can’t believe there’s many such cases of fans wanting good games instead of bad games
@@vacantile "game doesn't appeal to this small and niche fraction of fans, therefore it's bad"
most kaizos are unplayable for most audiences, mario games still want to be, at its core, easy fun platformers.
there are great standard hacks that aren't too difficult. If you want something creative and easy to get into some of gamma v hacks are good.
Yeah, there's that line near the end of the video that rubbed me the wrong way because of that.
"Nintendo will always be a company that makes things for children which means they have to
consider how to make it playable by children. In a lot of ways, rom hacking feels like if Nintendo grew up with us and only made games for adults now."
No, Nintendo are not making games for widdle babies while rom hackers make games for Real Men™. I'm sure that's not what Snoman intended to say, but that sure is what it felt like.
Nintendo are making games that have to appeal to a wide audience while rom hackers can cater to a much more niche segment. That's what the real difference is. And sure, if you're in that niche that Kaizo hacks cater to, it's perfectly fine to be disappointed that the mainstream Mario games don't scratch that itch. But it's not because you grew up and Nintendo didn't.
Yeah, there is no precise information on what Mario Wonder’s budget was but it’s definitely in the millions and something tells me Nintendo doesn’t really wanna spend all that money on a game a collective 11 people will beat.
*WARNING: ESSAY!*
We need more casual/standard ROM hacks that have the creativity and gimmicks of kaizo hacks. Nowadays, kaizo has become the de facto standard for SMW ROM hacks. This is because (1) hackers have become so accustomed to regular SMW gameplay that they need more extreme difficulty just to get that dopamine hit in, (2) the brainrot-fication of platformer level design. As a result, standard hack creators are being ignored and becoming a minority.
First, hackers are pushing difficulty to the edge just because they’ve no-lifed the game. They design levels for themselves and not a broader audience, creating what is widely known as “ROM hack difficulty”. You demonstrate this cultural change in your video by brushing off standard hacks to the side as "alternatives to kaizo", when it should be that kaizo hacks are the alternative. Unfortunately for you, not everyone is some hard core gamer that needs CBT level design just to feel a sense of accomplishment. Most gamers have lives outside of playing bing-bing wahoo all day.
Standard hacks appeal to a wider audience, even those who enjoy kaizo. Hackers should get out of their comfort zone and do something that appeals to people outside of their echo chamber.
Secondly, the zoomer brainrot mind-virus has barged its way into the SMW hacking community. Levels are designed to appeal to the low attention spans of people under 20 years old: Quick reaction times needed, instant retries required, save scumming encouraged, set ups that aren’t sight-readable, memes within the level wasting Map16 and GFX space, pop music not intended to be played by a SNES, flashy high saturation colors, and mixed-matched graphics. I enjoy liberal level design, but kaizo hackers take it too far, making the level feel like watching a Mr. Beast video.
To add on to this, streamers have disrupted how people design levels. People put trolls and crazy tricks in their level just to get a reaction from the streamer and chat. Mario levels have become “content” for e-celebs. Not everyone playing a hack is a streamer or UA-camr.
Instead, levels should follow the basic level design format of introducing a new gimmick, making set ups based on that gimmick, and gradually increase difficulty until the end of the level.
Now let’s get to the gimmicks. There are crazy innovative gameplay mechanics I’ve seen in kaizo hacks: carriable pipes, the level growing and shrinking via Mode 7, interacting with Layer 1 and Layer 2 at the same time. Don’t get me wrong, I love seeing new gimmicks in hacks. However, the difficult nature of kaizo weakens the level design and overall enjoyment players get from the gimmick. With standard hacks, you get a good gimmick, good level design, and difficulty that is easily digestible.
In conclusion, the popularity of kaizo hacks brings the future of SMW hacking into concern. Kaizo and standard hacks can live alongside each other, but we need to stick to our roots and keep standard hacks alive.
EDIT: The VLDC 14 hack even allowed Kaizo in it, an annual community event focused on standard difficulty levels!
Yeah totally agree with you. Rom hacks should be creative and more open for many kind of players. Producing more and more challenging hacks with inside jokes and obscure references only the fan base knows only makes it more appealing for people that like this kind of games. But it can be totally of putting for other ones. Like u said it would be great to have a creative SMW hack that compares to the original but exceeds in many other ways. I think SM64 hacks are more on the opposite of SMW, they usually try to make creative and interesting hacks and dont cater too much to the kaizo scene.
I agree With blue sheep. Especially with the VLDC14 Situation, cuz in older VLDC's level's deemed to kaizo would usually be given a bad score (some example's include into the mountain from VLDC3, & ahtletic synergy from VLDC11), & Now They're allowing Kaizo level's in VLDC14? That's stupid cuz not only A. VLDC is for Standard Level's, B. There's already a Contest series for kaizo level's.
Many Mario players never played a kaizo game or even knew about it. It's cool to gave them the same (or similar) expierence. At the end, Mario is a game for everyone, no just for kaizo players.
I used to think SMW was perfect platforming. I played and loved Wonder, then decided to go back to SMW for first time in over a decade and to be frank, it's not as good for me. This is not nostalgia blindness or anything like that because I tried Yoshi's island immediately after that and it was vastly superior. There's that whole thing about momentum and where we perceive the edge of a platform to be, etc. that time where mario effectively floated down a set of steps in SMW and I couldn't jump, that really frustrated me. After getting to 100% on all the levels and the special area, I felt like I hadn't really had as much of a good time. The challenge in Wonder just felt so much more fun for me and same with Yoshi's island. I think this is more about what type of a player we are. I have ADHD and am very adaptive. I'm not good with consistency and I need to be able to respond quickly to changing situations and the momentum and responsiveness of Wonder really worked for me. My movement in the special stages in Wonder was different each time, but that was okay because the game allowed for it.
mario world is nowhere near as good as everyone's hyped it up to be over the years. it's a very good game, but by modern standards there's zero aspects of the game that stand out as particularly remarkable. and yet so many people still call it the best platformer ever made, and one of the best games ever made. I did not play the same game as those people. it must be nostalgia. there's no other explanation.
@@jclkaytwo You have to consider when it was released. At that time it really was incredible. I played it at my friends in 1992 and it was just mindblowing how good it was compared to everything else that was available. The impact of that just lasted for such a long time. Super Mario 64 had a similar impact, but it became more apparent much sooner that the gameplay in that was very frustrating, and it aged fast.
@@CymruCreator I have very much considered when it was released. that is something that's important to consider, but if a game has aged compared to other games in the same genre it isn't fair to say that it's still the best game of its type. mario world is one of those games that has aged.
I don't agree with your point of view. I think romhacks and current Mario games are two completely different things, which differ in what kind of approach they have: the experience approach or the difficulty approach.
A kaizo can be as difficult as it wants, but in exchange it has to sacrifice the experience (level design, artistic design, fun, etc.). It may come closer to the experience, but kaizos will always end up being a very artificial block arrangement.
the bubble power-up originated in NSMBU tho. it's the ability of the blue baby yoshi. that ROM hack was probably influenced by it.
anyway that aside, this video feels like bad faith criticism. you're holding mario wonder up to an expectation that the game itself clearly wasn't intending to meet, and criticizing it for not meeting those misplaced expectations and being exactly what you wanted (i.e. a "response" to mario world ROM hacks). you could've easily made this same "ROM hacks are awesome" video without adding in all this weird mario wonder bashing.
honestly it feels like your complaints with the physics of mario wonder vs mario world only apply in the context of ROM hacks that are specifically tailored for mario world's physics (which is what you're used to, since you've played dozens of them). in that context sure maybe mario world's physics are better, but in the context of the base games, it really isn't a fair or even appropriate criticism. it just seems like a case of "it's different, therefore it's worse". and criticizing mario wonder for being made for children to be able to play is just pure nonsense. mario world was easy in the same way. it's silly to criticize a historically family-friendly video game franchise for not increasing in difficulty as the years go on just to cater to your extremely niche preferences.
regarding your complaint about the wonder effects, I strongly disagree. I think adding too many gimmick wonder effects for the sake of "memorability" would distract from the gameplay. having some wonder effects just be "enemy but huge" makes the game's most unique wonder effects pop out more, rather than those same wonder effects getting grating due to the constant gimmicks being thrown at you.
good points
Yeah I agree with you. The Mario games are supposed to be playable by anyone and that's a good thing. I wasn't really impressed with Wonder and didn't end up finishing it because of the boredom, but I had a good amount of fun and introduced a 5-year-old to 2D Mario. It'll be nice if we get some kind of official hardcore Mario option, but I mean if you like ROM hacks, just play those! You don't have to wait 6 years for one either
@@The_SOB_II well to be fair, if you want an official hardcore mario game, you got lost levels.
(but if you want a _good_ hardcore mario game... don't get your hopes up)
@@jclkaytwo I enjoyed new super Luigi as well. But when is New super wariLuigi coming out
@@The_SOB_II new super luigi u was fun and a bit more difficult than usual but idk if I'd call it "hardcore"
The Kaizo community is phenomenal, so many creative, talented people making genuinely amazing creations.
But people like you who go on the internet and do the tired old "wHy cAnT a bIlLiOn DoLlAr CoMpAnY mAkE gAmEs aS gOoD aS tHiS gUy????" schtick are a big part of the reason Kaizo isn't more popular.
People just roll their eyes and go back to what they were doing rather than actually looking into the community and realizing how brilliant it is.
This video is basically the "SEGA, HIRE THIS MAN!!!" meme, but stretched out to 12 minutes, and completely unironic.
As someone who's first Mario game is New Super Mario DS and played the newer ones afterwards inccluding Wonder, Mario World physics are horrendous to me. Way too slippery and uncontrollable, Wonder blows that out of the water for me.
It's a matter of preference.
The modern Mario games and modern games in general tend to "cheat" (for lack of a better term) to make them feel more responsive. The NSMB games and Wonder are more intuitive games that aren't as responsive whereas SMW has a bit of a learning curve but is more responsive.
9:22 hyped to see a channel I've been watching for ages feature a thing I made! Super happy to see your channel active again, and to hear you enjoyed playing it.
I'm slowly but surely embarking on my own indie gamedev journey, so maybe it won't be the last you hear of me (:
WYE! I saw your Mario in Godot video too, I’m absolutely following whatever you make next:D giant fan:)
I was literally just rewatching your kaizo series and wondering if people had done the same for mario wonder yet, the timing is so good it's a little eerie
Never understood how brutally difficult platformers can be considered fun. I played and beat Lost Levels with Luigi as a teenager and it was anything but fun. I pushed myself to do it to prove to myself that I could. The best Mario games are challenging but fair like Super Mario Bros 3.
the lost levels is a very sadistic kind of hard, kaizo is closer to something like meat boy where the levels are very short
(but... i don't really like kaizo honestly, the precision is really annoying to me)
I'm really glad you came back to uploading again dude, didn't realize how much I missed your content and not a single one has missed so far
My favorite SMW romhack Yt channel is raocow because he's been around for so long and makes beating each game super obtainable. His vids have definitely inspired me to get into playing romhacks for SMW, even if I haven't taken that first step yet.
If raocow fans saw this video they'd explode (but rightfully so in this case)
eeyyy raocow mentioned!
At first, I kept thinking how unfair this comparison is because Mario, in general, is kind of cursed with having really amazing games casually, but if your looking for more of a challenge and want to test your skills, you may have a little less than 10 levels that’ll satisfy your need.
10:40 But I think you summarized it here perfectly. Nintendo is not only for children, but for everyone. I don’t think they could ever release a Mario game with the same level of difficulty as even the easier Kazio hacks.
I play more modded Celeste maps/games cause it feels more accessible to me(if that makes sense) but I’ll probably give some Mario hacks a try! Good video as always ❤
it's the same with Pokemon rom hacks, there's a lot of edgy junk but when there's a good one damn is it good. Unbound & Prism are my favorite pokemon games, period.
Great video and all, but just because something's impossible for 99.99% of the human population does not mean it's good, while Mario wonder has some let downs, it is not trying to compete with kaizo hacks and should not be judged by their standards. Also just because you're used to a certain platformer's physics doesn't mean they're better than other platformer's physics.
stance on new super luigi u cause honestly it feels like an official romhack of nsmbu with every level being remixed the game being overall harder and the level design being far more interesting
Disagree I think both are amazing!!!!!!!!!!
Super Mario Bros Wonder and New Super Mario World 1 The Twelve Magic Orbs Powered Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Both 11/10 Masterpieces!!!!!!!!!!!!
You should check out Beeny. It’s sort of a spiritual successor to the original Donkey Kong Country trilogy, but the gameplay is very different. Plus, it only costs 99 cents.
I've been growing up with SM64 ROM Hacks, because those pretty much gave me, while familar, different experiences on Super Mario 64, which it's my favorite game of all time and it's absolutely a blast to play them
Now that the community has been expanding a ton, with the game being decompiled and anyone can now make custom codes on it in anything they want, it pretty much expanded new horizons for the SM64 ROM Hacking community and some of the best hacks in the recent times came out because of it
I really recommend Balloon Slider Mania for example, the whole game was transformed into a really good slide game that feels like an underrated gem N64 game
This feels like the extended version of your review for Mario Wonder on Backloggd but in video form. I recommend checking out Psycho Waluigi. It's very interesting
holy crap this is the first time I've ever seen someone mention backloggd in the wild. more people need to know about it
seconding psycho waluigi, feels like a long lost GBA game or something. very, very good.
I mean, the mostly Mario content that you showed was "kaizo". Nintendo can't made a Mario kaizo game. These games need to be "playable" for a more casual crowd. However, sure a post game kaizo world would have been nice.
Good video. Hysterical comments
While I agree and found the video interesting, saying "Nintendo makes games for children" is unfortunate. I like accessible games, and I wish you had said instead that Nintendo limits its creativity not to lean too far away from its concepts, which is a very unambitious attitude.
3:04 prceeds to show a rom hack made after wonder
yeah, but that bubble powerup "code" specifically has been a thing in smw hacking for a long while now. feel like he could've used different footage, especially when in other hacks it's even the same color scheme as wonder for mario and luigi's clothing
Grand Poo World 3 was being worked on far before Wonder was announced and Barb definitely had the bubble power up planned before Wonder
@@dimaginarylawBut Nintendo didn't rip it off, they don't even know what kaizo is.
@@alexanderthegreat-mx5zu It's unlikely Nintendo aren't aware of romhacking and Kaizo, it's ultimately a community based around modifying their games and not an insignificant one
While I can agree that fangames and rom hacks do crazy things you'll never see in an official Nintendo product, you lost me with the focus on kaizo. It's cool, but that approach to level design ain't it for me
"I've never seen another game utilize regrabs"
maybe you just didn't notice they were present in celeste?
So many amazing ASM Mario hacks now that feel like new games but most of them are fucking kaizo which just ruins it for me (and I like some good platforming challenge like clearing Super Meat Boy or Celeste). At least most Sonic hacks are playable past the first screen without dedicating your whole life to them.
"Nintendo only makes games for children! ROM hacks are what happened if Nintendo grew up!" Snoman said, as Nintendo just released an M-rated expansion pack for NSO AND announced a fully-Nintendo M-rated horror mystery game. Not to mention how this statement might alienate a big part of your audience, considering that you used to make (And still do make) videos praising Nintendo for their good game design, and those videos pulled Nintendo-loving adults towards your channel. Saying "If you like playing easy Nintendo games, you're a child." out of nowhere would probably come across as a big, polarizing shock to many of your fans.
Not exactly the same, but I've felt other platformers have already surpassed 3d Mario games in certain aspects. A Hat in Time and Psyconauts 2 pushed the envelope on what you can do with level design, environmental storytelling, presentation, main/side activities and, specially, bossfights. Mario Odyssey is great and very polished, but outside of the controls and production value, I feel those two games exceed the quality of Mario Odyssey in all aforementioned aspects. Heck, I don't think Mario has a boss as mechanically interesting as The Snatcher.
For standard hacks i reccomend:
Sicari and its sequel- essentially a whole new game with original characters, enemies, graphics, music. If you were to tell me it's a mod of smw i won't believe you
Smw Central Production 2: A great rom hack with custom graphics, new bosses, great level design.
Wouldn't super Mario maker 2 be Nintendo's answer of allowing ppl to make kaizo levels? The mainline 2D games would not sell like they do if they weren't accessible. And I personally found the final challenge levels in Wonder extremely difficult
7:19 I was thinking Friday Night Funkin' or something. But anyway, those hacks are pretty mindblowing like the references to other games (I think Wario in that airship that you can blow up in this old game about guiding bucket-head Mario is actually a reference to Sonic) plus just these physics and gimmicks like playing as an airship in the overworld or riding some new kind of Yoshi. It would be cool if perhaps there were more games (maybe a Paper Mario but also a mainline one) where Peach and Bowser were sometimes seen throughout the game despite being the main antagonist and main 'one that needs saving' just like in Kirby and Zelda. Something cool would be where Mario and Peach are both trying to find each other and for example there might be a city and Mario and Peach are driving a car and see each other as they go past but aren't able to stop and that would be a funny reference to the Vanya & Five meme. It is cool how Bowser is seen throughout TTYD by the way.
What do think of SMBX? Mario and Luigi there have their SMW movement. And there have been plenty of things done with the Platformer Engine, LunaLua, Xtech and 38A
I wonder if you will enjoy playing Celeste mods. Celeste mods also feature a wealth of creativity and polish that I wager can rival romhacks, Celeste is also my pick for the best movement system in a 2D platformer, It is incredibly deep with the base game not even scratching the surface of what you can do
This video is almost something I really wanted to see on UA-cam, a discussion of how much creativity and polish goes into the kaizo scene, with a desire to make levels that are fun first and foremost. I think a lot of people have the impression that Kaizo is made only with the purpose of trolling the player and being annoying, when a lot of creators put so much effort into refining their hacks and adjusting the gameplay to be enjoyable for those willing to play them. Something I have noticed is that the kaizo community also tend to highlight the hacks that are the most fun rather than stuff made to be the most difficult (although I guess that's more the case for SMW than mario maker)
Unfortunately that aspect seems to have been drowned out by the dismissal of the official games so that's what a lot of your audience will cling onto, rather than the merits of Kaizo
I think there's something wholesome about all these Mario rom hacks. To think so many people have been so captivated by this silly game series about an italian plumber fighting a giant turtle that they've made countless versions of their own spin on it, wanting to add on to the games in their own special way.
It's like a love letter to Mario and his universe. The fans love Mario in a way Nintendo can't, I'd argue.
"Look no further than Grand Poo World 3"
...yeah, I'll pass.
So cool to see someone make this type of content about kaizo smw, playing hard mario games was a dream I had for most of my life, so when I discovered smw hacks in 2016 it completely changed my life
For me personally I enjoy a challenge, but there's a point where I cannot be bothered. For example I tried a friends copy of Super Meat Boy and it turned me right off. I'm also a fan of being able to just get a game and have it work without any effort on my part, so romhacks and modding have never been something I've gotten into. That being said I do enjoy watching Kaizo stuff, as while I will never be interested in doing it myself it is fun to watch and experience the creativity of the community. It doesn't matter how good a dev is, a community will always be able to put out more stuff then any one team just do to the size difference.
You are trolling, wonder is one of my favorite Mario's of all time. I begrudgingly respect your opinion though lol
Comparing and individual Nintendo game to an illegal romhaking roms which nintendo don't even use as inspiration and saying that Mario Wonder is bad for that reason is really genius idea!
Doesn’t New Super Luigi U make you fall slower if you hold down the jump button as you fall?
I haven't played SMW romhacks in a while they all contain great design from many amazing people
I finished Mario Wonder with my 5 year old in co-op, he's had the time of his life. No ROM hack achieves this.
Love the video! I would strongly recommend you play yume nikki and its fangames. While not difficult at all, these games show the ways their hardware (RPG Maker) can be pushed in similar ways to how Rom Hacks push Mario World, with interesting concepts and beautiful worlds to walk through. The original game is free on steam and its fangames are free as well. I cannot recommend it enough.
I don't play kaizo hacks (skill issue),but even the non-kaizo rom hacks are real swag
I don't play kaizo hacks (skill issue),but even the non-kaizo rom hacks are real swag
Wonder wins against lame kaizo hacks that you need to learn hours of pointless nonsense to play them decently.
This guy really believes that average normal mario player will able to beat Kaizo's levels with some ease?
Thanks for making the video.
I'm definitely not going to be playing these aha!😅
Mario feels to floaty and the controls aren't tight enough. I rather see stuff like this for shovel knight.
I loved Super Mario Wonder, but I played it with 3 friends - probably wouldn't have been particularly interesting on my own.
I'll check out some of these hacks!
7:20 Can't imagine a game that suitable for 3 year old kids that have usable guns
grandfather poop > godfather of kaizo
Mario wonder has pretty good online
WONDER if I'll be first?
(Sorry - couldn't resist)
Where do I go to get the SMW mods where you play as Yoshi?
The idea of Mario is to keep everything simple
10:53
That tune sounds like Tarzan Boy.
Naaa thats Mario Maker 4 bro not even 3 😂😂😂😂
I don’t even care… this video is just useless…
ROM Hack fans: "GIVE US HARDER BATTLES!!!"
Nintendo: "Wat to heck?!"
Hi Snowman!!
What are the best ROM hacks ? This video made me want to dive into this rabbit hole so tell me what are the best ones 🙏
@@JohSmith a plumber for all seasons is my first recommendation. great level design and outstanding visuals and music. it's also normal difficulty too so no need to worry.
@@jclkaytwo thank you very much
I gave a whole bunch of Recs in the video and description
This dude thinks he can just drop two bangers in one week
Whats with the weirdos in the comments acting like the criticism you had was about how Mario wonder was too easy? I feel like a lot of people just didn't watch the video and came here to hate because they saw the word kaizo in the title.
Maybe this is because of people being broadly unfamiliar with rom hacking in general but I absolutely took your points as more of an expression of the creativity in the rom hacking scene (both kaizo and not, because no not all rom hacks are kaizo) vs how much of mario wonder felt like it didn't live up to the potential it could have had. And I don't really understand how someone could earnestly watch this and takeaway that your opinion was just that Mario Wonder wasn't good because it was too easy.
I think it's just easy to get the wrong impression from the title. I now understand where Snowman was coming from since they have a strong preference for World's control, difficulty, and physics.
The title initially intrigued me to watch since I did enjoy Wonder, though the bosses were underwhelming, and I've never played a Super Mario World rom hack, so there's a bit of unfamiliarity
I had changed my initial opinion, though, since Snowman talks about other Non Kaizo rom hacks and even beginner friendly Kaizo.
I'm unsure if I agree with his conclusion, though.
While it is true Nintendo makes games with children in mind, I don't think it makes much of a negative impact on the overall quality. I mean, it's the same company that gave us world, right?
Rom hacks seem as if Nintendo grew up with us and were for adults but considering the resources and unlimited creativity the hacking community has, I believe it's a bit of an unfair comparison.
Part of me wonders if a popular streamer watched this and complained or something like that! The ideas given in this video do not seem so wildly incendiary as to receive this kind of response, especially for what I would associate with a video with this watch count!
The idea that these kaizo romhacks are completely alienating completely ignores many of your broader points! The idea that some concepts used in kaizo are "non-nintindo-able" holds a lot of merit (like death used for progression, incorporation of elements from other series, etc.), I'd even say that such concepts are compelling and would widen appeal in some cases! On top of that, you go out of your way to mention romhacks that aren't even "kaizo/difficulty" ones, plus ones that are entry level ones! It seems to me like people had already turned off their receptiveness to seriously considering your ideas by the time they got there!
The complaints that your slight distaste for the newer 2d mario movement approach is simple favoritism also comes across as odd to me! I grew up on mario 3 (the gba remaster of the nes mario 3) and when I moved to the wii 2d mario games (new super mario brothers, iirc) I completely bounced off of it; I was probably 11 or 12 when I played that (if even that!), yet the controls were so offputting that I didn't even get half way through the game! At an age where nostalgia didn't even apply to me yet too! There is certainly reason to favor the older series' controls, and the idea that modern 2d mario is "the modern thing that's here to stay" instead of one development approach seems lacking to me.
Great video imo (enough for me to write this a second time (in a very different way though sadly) because my internet went out right when I hit send and it disappeared; very frustrating, but I feel like your video deserves good feedback and a bit of pushback against the negative responses)! Next time I'm bored and looking for something more novel I'll definitely try to keep kaizo mario in mind!
I just wish that they had these things
One more world (candy world was a missed opportunity)
More full levels
Better bosses
Mire flower powerups, its in the flower kingdom after all. I have ideas for a Lightning flower and Earth flower.
Im not a kaizo mario guy, but all the criticisms of Mario Wonder were the same ones I had with it. Speaks to the let down it is, its fun, but not what I expected after the hype from reviews.
I haven’t played Wonder (disclaimer); GPW3 is what got me into starting Streaming again, the Kaizo community is so great and glad I’m a part of it. I got raided by Panga on the first night of GPW3 release and I’m still going to this day.
I’ve watched people like Juz, Carl, Barb for so long and I’ve played Kaizo for many years (GPW was my first SMW hack so many years ago LOL), they’ve inspired me to play Kaizo, especially Juz and I love their communities as well most of all, it helps keep me going