Lungbarrow: An Attempted Explanation (Doctor Who)
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2024
- Doctor Who was cancelled in 1989, but the story went on, taking the form of the Virgin New Adventures. Known amongst fans as the VNAs, this series of books and its dubious canonicity have baffled fans and casual audiences alike. I kid of course, no casual audience member could ever dream of getting this deep into the pits of fandom. Today we're talking about Lungbarrow, the TRUE(?) finale of the original Doctor Who.
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she lung on my barrow til i arguably get retconned out of canon
cook
I’m so glad someone finally got to explaining lungbarrow to normal doctor who fans.
Yeah, when I was first watching Doctor Who I did a lot of the research on the wiki, so I mostly just got the gist of ‘Lungbarrow is important, Time Lords are grown in looms’ as the Doctors origins.
Alright. Fuck yeah. Now do a faction paradox + war in heaven video 😈. You’d literally be the first person to do it I think.
real
Oh no
Yes we need more on both the faction and the war in heaven
Wait yes please
I’ve wanted an explanation video on them for awhile. Everytime I try to get an answer through a wiki I end up at jar jar of the Binks clan
Leela being the Doctor's biological mother reminds me of some theories I've heard such as Jackie Tyler being the Doctor's biological mother. There's even the parallel where both times, the Doctor either wants each mother to name the child after him or the mother says they are going to as a joke.
I love that shot of the special weapons Dalek nuking that gate like it’s personal
I always wondered why they haven't brought back the Special Weapons Daleks. Imagine those interspersed with regular Daleks on the battlefield of Gallifrey during the Time War.
@@OzBaxter yeah they chuck him in as an Easter egg here and there but I wanna see that sucker go BOOM
Mate plenty of us care about lungbarrow it’s crazy but it’s also one of the craziest doctor who stories ever and I love it also Mel is great in big finish
I've pointed out multiple times that The Timeless Children and the whole plotline Chibnall did with that and the Flix fob watch stuff was just a simplified version of the Lungbarrow storyline and people don't seem to get what I mean by that. Thanks for agreeing with me.
Also, I've not seen your channel before, but I've subscribed.
Thank you!
Not simplified... just better. Better idea, better written, better executed.
EDIT Dammit I was trying to say Lungbarrow was the far superior version but somehow got completely twisted. (I was probably very stoned.)
@@macloonan23You best watch your tongue, boy. Saying things like that may cause you to end up in the dirt, real soon.
@@gameover9390Reading back I realized I was making completely the wrong point
I agree and have said the same myself. I also have a lot of appreciation for "Lungbarrow," even though I prefer "The Timeless Children" and "Flux."
Something I find interesting about the EU is the Faction Paradox novels were canon at one point, but after losing the licence they continued making entries without any direct reference to the show to avoid copyright issues.
Chibnall pulled from it for his storylines, the Timeless Child and the Planet Time specifically.
The Time War and the War in Heaven also share quite a few similarities
I just lost 40 minutes of my life watching someone talk about a show i've never watched, and I enjoyed it! woo! good video!
GOAT
Finally someone is talking about this! Lots of DW youtubers seem to gloss over it, or glance past it, but never dive in
Thank you for your service
any time my brother🫡
Marc Platt deserves a Lollipop and many pats on the back for what he accomplished in Lungbarrow.
"Whats up every BODY" genuinely my favorite youtuber intro
I have a well-worn copy of the first printing of Lungbarrow, which doesn't have the introduction or the 'previously on' bit. It's my favorite of all the books
the Previously is from the 2003 edition, the introduction is a neat add-on
This was absolutely mind boggling and massively did my head in. Amazing video!
this is actually such an AMAZING video! I have heard Lungbarrow mentioned so many times and have always wanted to know what it was! thanks
been watching your channel for weeks and you've convinced me to go watch the Classic Who series(plus i have access to it now lol) and it's been fun so far. Great content friend, keep it up!
LETS GO! Hope you enjoy it man!
Lovely! I must say and admit the VNAs are rarely my cup of tea, what I heard from most of them doesn't sound too appealing but oh well, maybe I should read some more of them before I can fully judge, that being said: Glad to see this corner of who being talked about it here! Hopefully that means if this video does well, you dive more into the EU and especially stuff regarding 8 :D!
I've seen Lungbarrow described as the true finale to Classic Doctor Who, which makes me wonder what a New Who finale would look like. I am interested in checking this book out for myself- it's one section of the show's history I haven't gotten much into.
Twice Upon Time would be a great finale, in a some ways it was the finale for a lot of people.
Dog I love your videos so much I’ve been super interested in the VNA books for a while and lungbarrow especially and was SO excited to see this upload
Love the video. I have all the VNA's , a small collection of the VMA's, and an even smaller collection of the BBC MA's. I have read half of VNA's, and I'm trying to work up to Lungbarrow. Like you said some of the books are amazing, some good, and some total drek. But for me I got into Doctor Who in 1990, and living in a small midwest town in the US, the books were exciting to get, when I could find them, as the VHS releases were about 4 to 6 a year. I got So Vile a Sin, Lungbarrow, and Dying Days during the pandemic for $125 USD each. I was working a lot of overtime for a medical supply company, and said what the hell. I paid around cover price for the rest I didn't have. I feel the books got more consistent after Blood Heat.
I can only imagine how exciting these must've been to get as they came out, that's awesome!
dwfan91 is back with another classic
So much is this feels like a proto timeless child- which is what probably caused the “Vinder is the doctors dad theory’s”
I do wonder how this would have gone down and been revived if done in the 80’s.
Would it have been like the TC or maybe better received especially since the show would have ended shortly after this would have been shown so that would have been it with no follow up
Delta and the Bannerman will always have a special place in my heart. Death's Head's first appearance in Dr. Who Magazine is a Delta cover with the 7 on a motorcycle and the green baby. I think I embarresed Sylvester McCoy when i asked him to sign it at a con 😂
I remember reading the wilderness year lore when I was a kid even though I had hardly even seen Classic Who lol
THANK YOU!
I've long meant to get to reading LUNGBARROW...long, long, long meaning to.
This makes me want to do it even more... and...not at all. Haha
I will... one day. But YOU helped fill much of the crucial gaps.
LOVE your stuff!
Beloved, I watched (and commented on) this video before I watched Ghostlight. Now I've seen it and downloaded the PDF for Lungbarrow, I am begging you to go through more of the complicated videos/more of the EU. They are my absolute favourites on this channel, especially anything to do with Classic Who
(Which may be obvious given I commented two months ago, which was around my fifth watch of this video...)
Oh my god you true hero!! Thank you for this.
Makes me think if Russell was referring to Peri in "The Reaping" regarding family turned into Cybermen. Did that happen in the story? It's been a while. The only example I can think of involving a companion's family and Cybermen.
Oh I'm HERE for this! The Wilderness Years is my jam!
I BEEN WAITING FOR THIS ONE
Oh this is so interesting! I love your classic who videos and I'm very happy to hear more about the EU
my first video of yours awesome job buddy
Thank you!
I care about this topic!!
The 7th Doctor's later years in the EU (as well as the 8th Doctor novels) is fascinating and I wish more people talked about it
More EU videos please!
Omg so complicated 😢. Thanks for explaining. I’d heard about the looms but not the cousins/ sentient house/ doctor= the other.😊
Great vid you have to do the 8th doctor memory loss trilogy
Love this. I wish more people did Doctor Who book content.
Would love a video like this on spare parts… never looked into any eu stuff but I’ve heard spare parts is insanely good
I would say so. I loved it.
i believe it is still available on spotify for free, alongside many other big finish audio productions - i think if you search up 'spare parts big finish', you should find it. i listened a while back and can also attest to how good it is!
I reckon R2D is gonna expand on a lot of the grandeur "bigger picture" stuff that was teased towards the end of McCoy's era.
This video is great, hope you're having a great day
you too!
Great video!
I loved the VNA's myself, but they're definitely....a lot. I had totally forgotten how horned up they were too 😂 Wow. I never really thought of them as canon, or even close. They were just kinda something to scratch that 7th Doctor itch after he became my favorite, and I ran into the ending of the original series. Big Finish also helped a lot with that. I discovered both around the same time.
0:47 You just won yourself a new subscriber after this statement. Cheers
I LOVE Spare Parts! Best audiodrama of any kind I have ever heard.
More classic series content please 🙏
Can you do Faction Paradox and the War in Heaven? Great video!
"this feels like torchwood" im sold time to go read some books
Hell yeah! Awesome video! Think you can do an explanation/timeline of events for Timelord Victorious??
Would Timelord Victorious be an interesting video topic you think?
@@dwfan91- I think so, lots of people find it pretty interesting
@@spooncerbooncer You're right, okay I'll keep it in mind :)
@@dwfan91-oh that would be interesting
Also can you do the Patience storyline I have read most of the info I know from the WIKI but I have never read the actual stories or know where and how to read it
Will you ever explain faction paradox?
I really appreciate this vid since it gave me lungbarrow in a way I can actually understand what is going on
faction paradox is probably like the most confusing thing in dr who ever.
so yh prolly in abit
@@dwfan91- Cool to hear! The War in Heaven will certainly be interesting to explain
If we ever have a finale to doctor who and adaptation of lungbarrow would be really good. A really weird strange story would really suit dr who as a crazy ending.
Can you do a video about my favorite underrated big finish story arc, the elder gods arc,
Nice video on something that sounds incredibly esoteric even by expanded universe Sci-fi settings, I don't know what it is about the 90s but Doctor Who, Star Wars and Warhammer 40K expanded universe stuff all had really *weird* periods around that time.
One thing I wanted to point out was the similarities between this story and the Gormenghast series, I don't know if you've read them? I'm only about halfway through the first book, but the parallels are already blindingly obvious to me. Gormenghast is a series of..... (I guess I'll say fantasy since I don't know what else to call them) books that are focused around a house/castle/mansion called Gormenghast , that exists in some vaguely Victorian setting with elements of medieval society. The house is massive but poorly maintained, and owned by the Groan family who have a whole army of servants of various kinds and status ranks. The house seemingly exists outside of any society or time, with only the feudal village nearby being referenced as existing alongside the house (although the book seems intentionally vague as to whether that means nothing exists outside of the house or the people in the house are just so obsessed with it they can't see beyond it).
It's a very hard series to summarise for the exact same reason that Lungbarrow is, its extremely dense and fixated on the minutia of interpersonal relationships (the first chapter is literally just a guy walking into a room, having a short conversation with another man then and leaving) but it manages to really engage you in the workings of the house, the hierarchy and the attempts by one member to overturn said hierarchy.
The whole thing is an extended metaphor about family and class hierarchy, how interpersonal relationships are affected by status, how obsession and paranoia can result from spending too long in the same place, and how people seek to reclaim their own agency within a hierarchy through small acts of rebellion that can spill over into much more serious attempts at political change.
Just from this video I've identified the following similarities:
1. The title is the one word name of the house
2. Many members of the same family live in the house who are all related but distantly to each other
3. A murder is committed in the house
4. Reproduction/pregnancy is an important theme
5. Madness is an important theme
6. The house is a character within the story (its not literally alive in Gormenghast but the way its described it may as well be)
7. The house is destroyed at the end of the story (this happens at the end of the third book that I haven't read yet, but its heavily telegraphed even from the beginning of the first book)
And that's just from reading half the first novel :) The Doctor in Lungbarrow story sounds like a combination of Titus Groan, the heir to Gormenghast and Steerpike, a young man who seeks at first to rise through the hierarchy at Gormenghast and once that is thwarted to destroy the hierarchy altogether. Steerpike plays the role of main villain in the first book, although whether he is actually a villain is up for debate.
Anyway that's enough rambling, but I'd really recommend the Gormenghast series if you fancy reading something genuinely thought provoking that deals with the themes I've described. It's dense, not an easy read, but has a lot to say about the human condition (its also the only book I've ever read were the foreword just directly spoils the ending of the novel, although that doesn't matter much as the book is very much about the experience not the plot).
imma need that main range video rn mr dwfan91
Yessir🫡
I don't think the fandom is unaware of Lungbarrow. Second hand copies of the first edition sell for hundreds of pounds.
id love for you to cover the eight doctor adventures series
Thanks for doing expended media Content. Can we expect more of that?
Damn. I love over complicated obscure vaguely non cannon extended universe doctor who media
Ouch that almost harmed my capacity to think in any shapes or forms, but it was intriguing and fascinating and BONKERS! How you managed to bring some semblance of explaining a narrative from all that is astounding. Did you have to do a 10-year degree at the University of Lungbarrow? This makes the most complex and convoluted of Agatha Christie's Poirot explanations for a murder look like child's play. Whilst I could ask you dozens of questions, I think I will simply stick with one that I feel I did not really get an idea from the video. Did you enjoy the book?
Thank you for the comment- it was quite the journey. To answer your question: I think so..? I don't really know. As I mention its rather dense and you need a lot of background knowledge on the other books to really get whats going on. It has some very interesting and funny parts though so if you see it going for a reasonable price I would recommend you pick it up :)
Thank you. I checked it on eBay and the prices were horrendous. I even saw it on the thousands. Catch you on another one of your awesome videos. Cheers.@@dwfan91-
It was an interesting book. I’m surprised the wiki has nothing in it. I grabbed a copy in the short time it was available prior to the whole Virgin run being pulped.wish I still had it.
3:24 I recognise that background music but can't place from where
I think it's the clothes shop theme from Pokemon X&Y?
But when do we get the history of doctor who’s name (mainly how tf they made a season arch based on a mystery answered 30 years earlier)
I recently paid £165 for a copy of Lungbarrow. Crazy, really, but it shows how collectable it is some of us Wilderness Era Who fans. Great vid 😁
damn, halfway through the video and he's not even talking 'bout lungbarrow
I actually really like the lungbarrow stuff for years and if I ever become showrunner lord knows I will be hinting at its canonisation. I get why some don’t like it but for the most part I really love it not the Leela mum part but I do actually like the half human plotline(Don’t attack me 😭😭)
The show never really had an actual fixed canon, they made most of it up as they went along.
Isn't the whole point of the show being called "Doctor Who" is because nobody knows who he really is or (especially now) where he actually comes from.
Ghost Light is the Silent Hill of Doctor Who
I love the Agatha Christie feel to Lungbarrow
YEE JEE TSO
Well you know what I can talk about Doctor Who forever too of all the old episodes cuz I thought they were cool
02:22 I'm the one with the bowler hat
good vid 10/10
20:19 wasn’t Ace 16?
Keep going until my lung burrows 👹
JNT didn't sack Colin Baker willingly, he was instructed to do so by Michael Grade.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS FINALLY MATE FINALLY SOMEONE TALKING ABOUT THE EU
I CARE!!
LETSS GOOOOO
ERIC
Make a video about the doctor's brother
the master :0
@@dwfan91- Braxiatel
@@doubleluckydub.7782 I feel like Braxiatel is even more of a tough pill to swallow than Lungbarrow for casual audiences😂 maybe that would be a fun topic
@@dwfan91- that would be a great video, I'm looking forward
Love the eu content
need a eda book video
Yes please
I added the plot on the wiki 👍
WE DID IT, WE SAVED DR WHO!!
@@dwfan91- WAHEY
@@dwfan91- i’ll add it in more detail after finishing the video
nevermind im gonna be so real the story is interesting but i am NOT writing that out
Ha. That's completely understandable, dude. I love the book, but it's wayyy out there and definitely a lot.
::mumbles, looks at floor:: i dunno man delta and the bannermen rules and you’re just like wrong or somethin’… ::shuffles off::
paradise towers rools delta and the bannermen drools😎
Is the moive even canon anymore because in that the master ran out of regulations wne was trapee in the twreie ane th3 doctor wws half human wnd all that isn't a thing in the new series somehow the master ended up wt the end of the universe
the master ran out of regenerations ages before, he was on his 13th life by his first appearance, in the episode 'the Deadly Assassin' (the episode the 13 life rule was introduced) he survived after death, effectively breaking the same rule that was established in that episode. Years later he stole the body of Tremas before being executed, and surviving AGAIN. And then, after the Movie he was resurrected to fight in the Time War but he ran away again
@@dwfan91- ok
The movie is canon and so are the 8th Doctor Big Finish audios.
The old series was great the new series is so-so
I agree
But I really don't get the new series at all
have you been watching gravity falls recently?
yes
@@dwfan91- I could tell lol
@@lancealot1235 I've been a fan since it came out- I haven't necessarily been watching recently per se but I will always love the show
@@dwfan91- same
Hoping more NuWho fans (not familiar with classic Who) watch this.
At least Marc Platt is much better writer than the Talented Chris Chibnall. I will take that twisted complex story over the Timeless Child anytime of the day.
Have you read Lungbarrow? It really is a slog to get through. I think I prefer Marc Platt to Chris Chibnall too but it really is no comparison, the Timeless Children is a better story
The New and Missing Adventure series of books are mostly great and sadly forgotten. While the Doctor in the TV movie being half-human was dumb, and not all of the books were good; it's all better than the garbage we've been seeing in the modern televised show...
Lungbarrow is my head Cannon the timeless child is omega or Rassillon the Doctor isn't immortal as it would defeat the logic of the story
The doctor isn’t immortal though, they still have the set 13 lives which is why 11 was dying in time of the doctor.
He needed those new regens because he didn’t have any more
Hi. One of the 3. Whats up?
What's up friend
I found it very difficult and unpleasant to read.
knowing the full story, i still have no clue how people think the timeless child arc is worse than LEELA BEING THE DOCTORS MOTHER
How is the Doctor’s life becoming a time loop worse?
Now about the shortage of housing
FIRST
Means nothing. You have to be the last.
At 26.15, i had to finally tap out. Sorry, couldn't take anymore.
I understand
Yeah, sounds like this sucks as much as The Timeless Children, probably more so actually.
thats what im saying😭
I think its a little better if you keep the bare bones and get rid of all the weird extra stuff. The doctor is still just the doctor and was physically born as one, but has some connection to this other, but is not literally the other, it just has that Virgin books silliness attached. The big problem that I have with Timeless child is that some guys half-baked fantheory is now forced into canon.
@@zarrg5611 Disagree tbh - the problems with Lungbarrow and TTC are pretty much the same - making the Doctor too special within the mythos of the show that's a product of unknown history in which the Doctor is a passive figure, rather than their actions that we see them take by choice in the story's here and now. Lungbarrow maybe has the saving grace of not taking the true run of Doctors starting from Hartnell and smashing that into smithereens since it positions the Doctor as a reincarnation, but it still seems to be a bloated mess that throws everything at the wall in the name of some manufactured mystery backstory, when I don't think that's really required for the Doctor's character.
@@AlexArtsHere what I find incredible is how many people freak out over stuff like this or the timeless child for ruining the doctors character,
But are fine with new who. Like, at all. Not a year into new who and suddenly doctor who is a legendary war hero, the sole survivor of the greatest war of all time and his whole species (if that isn't too important within the shows mythos I don't know what is). Suddenly doctor who is dressing and talking in ways he never would. He snogs and dates a teenage girl younger than his granddaughter. He's framed as a "lonely god". The show and everyone in the show treat him as if he's the simultaneously the scariest most dangerous and also loveliest most impressive guy to have ever lived.
I could go on. And on. And on.
It's ridiculous how people are fine with all of that but "oh no, the backstoy changed for like the 5th time". (I do get the dislike for timeless child and lungbarrow, I also think they "ruin" the doctors character far far less than new who as a show itself does, consistently).
@@dommoore6180 Yes, the Rose arc is silly and unfitting, so are numerous plotlines in the classic show. Other then that your argument seems purely emotional, the Timeless Child is a bad plot point for numerous very clear reasons and not 'badass but also soft something something modern television not the doctor's character' Just look at the difference between Hartnell and Tom Baker, there is as much as character divide as that between Baker and Tennant. My main issue with the time war is that it does kind of put that tired Superman trope onto the doctor, but is is a fairly elegant way of rebooting the show while maintaining continuity, and interesting things were done with it. Furthermore, people focus on the dud of the modern era, but the many plodding illogical stories in Classic Who are conveniently ignored, and sometimes lauded as being the best thing ever (as some lesser new who stories are) Explain to me the clever subtlety in the barely cohesive mess that is Earthshock?
I think Lungbarrow is more camon than anything Chibnall did to fuck everything up, mainly because it is much better written. I don't care what Chibnall/Jodie stans think either, they aren't fans of proper Doctor Who.
is it tho?
Having read Lungbarrow and being someone who enjoys every era of the show, I respectfully disagree. Officially produced and officially licenced, Doctor Who is Doctor Who, and all fans of it deserve respect.
3:08 “Before we get into the video….”
You’ve been rambling for 3 minutes already. I don’t think I’ll bother.
tiktok attention span😂
it actually doesn't "start" until long after that. However you have to stick with it for full explanation. It's worth it. He's trying to provide the back story of all novels leading up to Lungbarrow so it'll make sense.
i am the third person who likes this video
hall of fame🫡