I thought it was really cool. I don't know who the director was (they were probably included in the unleashed short), but they cooked so hard, especially in the first few shots of the dalek. The comedy aspect kinda annoyed me a little bit, but other than that it was so insanely good. The Davros design change is an interesting choice. I can agree with both sides. I get how many people feel uncomfortable with Davros' design, but I get how it isn't a wheelchair. Its a whole can of worms that I don't want to get into. It was a really good short, and I loved it.
I think there's a lot of reading into RTD's mind. For instance, you don't know if RTD has or hasn't spoken with disabled people. I really liked Years and Years, perhaps working with Ruth Madely has shifted his opinion, maybe the two of them have spoken about it as colleagues. We don't know. From RTD's quote, I don't think he's "Reducing disabled people down to the disablities and adding moral virtue to that," he's bringing up how in a wider context, there is a pattern and that Davros, taken as part of a tapestry of villains in media, fits into that regardless of in-universe context or character (not to say that's not important, just that the mere existence of it doesn't prevent the perception in a wider audience. I'm not gonna dislike this video, but I would say that going forward, make less conclusions about what it going on in other peiople's minds, and try to keep it centered on your thoughts - which I think aren't mean-spirited or ableist in intention or goal.
I thought it was a fun little romp that I didn't take too seriously. I view it like I view Time Crash. It's not anything exceptional, but for what it is, its cute and inoffensive
I loved the idea of The Doctor being directly responsible for the plunger and the name, Dalek but making Davros support the plungers, just seemed too silly for something that is "not a comedy sketch". Still, showing how even though the Doctor failed to avert their creation in Genesis of The Daleks, he still made them less threatening in Destination: Skaro. I have no position to argue the canonicity of this (basically like the Big Finish audio dramas), so we'll just have to wait to find out. Even though the thought of an evil wheelchair user may be controversial, they shouldn't have changed a major character. Davies should have chosen another villain or made another villain, but I'm not that mad.
It's ok as a prequel to "Gensis of the Daleks," though it upends assumptions about how and when Davros developed his life support system. But between RTD's explanation of why he wouldn't regenerate DT into JW's clothes, and his idea of disabled people as being portrayed as evil, I think he's signaling virtue that no one was really looking for. At the very least, he didn't have to say anything about it.
It's important to remember that, ten years before he gave us Davros, Terry Nation gave us Dortmun, a brave, resourceful scientist in a wheelchair who fought the Daleks in 'The Dalek Invasion of Earth'. Disabled people are people. Some are nice, some are nasty.
@@Lennonlover06 I can only think that RTD is planning for a cop out for Davros along the lines of The Giggle, when the only Davros that's left is one of his clones from Revelation...(as it in nowhere resembles a normal wheelchair, the only yardstick would be an Electric scooter - so Davros packs it all in, lives on earth with a bag over his head and opens a shop selling electric scooters for the elderly and wealthy).
The difference between a hero and a villain is how they respond to the pain of their life. Davros is the epitome of a villain who turned his pain into hatred.
@@master1442p I think he does care quite abit its just people dont see eye to eye with his descision making. I think he'd be best introducing heroic characters who have faced similar trials.
@@triplejazzmusicisall1883 Like yes you can have villains who are disabled....but make it so their villainy wasnt caused by it. Or at best make them an anti villain. Like say, a character who lost limbs or the like due to malice from a scummy corp. But dont make thsm evil because theyre disabled
@@chrisdiokno5600Really doesn't work that way. That just isn't real. Joker? Disfigurement via vat of acid, villain. Davros, accident, disfigured, villain. People need to grow up and stop looking for so many reasons to be offended all the time
I can understand the decision to leave the ‘Davros wheelchair’ out of this Children In Need episode, but as I don’t think I’m the only one who has never thought of Davros as being a wheelchair user, never mind representing all wheelchair users, I hope this does not mean he will never be shown as half-Dalek ever again.
If anything he's more akin to a centaur in concept, man from the waist up and Dalek from the waist down. It's not like he was born with a disability; his was elective due to his mad science experiments.
I honestly never thought of Davros being in a wheelchair until RTD talked about it. I don't know why, but it never clicked to me before he said that. I just thought it was his second half.
The fact that this was NEVER spoken about in public discourse or fan circles proves the point that it was never a big deal. Twitter was already around and already nuts in 2015 when Davros last appeared but no one said anything
@@227060 yeah thats a good point, if it was such a big deal then why didn't twitter say anything at that time, normally they let everyone know when something offends them or is problematic but i never heard anything from them...
hi. i'm physically disabled and i'm glad the fandom is talking about this because it is so confusing to me. while i don't have facial scarring or blindness, i am an ambulatory wheelchair user (i use a wheelchair when travelling medium to long distances) so i will be mainly discussing that part of the retcon. when i watched journey's end, i never really saw davros as amazing representation, but i did vaugely recognise him as a wheelchair user, and i thought the whole dalek as a wheelchair design was cool as hell. i don't mind that davros wasn't amazing rep, because he didn't have to be rep. he's a sci-fi character that registered as alien in my head. to me, thinking davros represented all disabled people would be like thinking the 10th doctor represented all men. just because a character belongs to that demographic, doesn't mean they represent it. now, upon hearing davros' backstory (i never thought i'd say this): i relate to him. the idea of your pain making you want to... exterminate... everything and start anew is something i can (and i think a lot of disabled people can) relate to. plus, the fact that he's a genius who created a whole race whilst being disabled is again, quite cool. hearing that RTD decided to delete this whole backstory that is actually quite relatable and then turn around and say he did it for us is just annoying. if RTD really wanted to benefit disabled people, he should have decided to in future davros storylines, centre his story around disability and reiterate his backstory for nuwho watchers like me who did not know. it would both make his character more sympathetic and open up a conversation around disabled people's pain, which is something i feel people rarely fully consider. ALSO, a disabled companion would be a great idea imo. i know we had ryan, but in the words of my dyspraxic best friend: dyspraxia isn't the fear of ladders. so, if we had a fully-fleshed out physically disabled companion (played by an actor with the character's disability, hopefully), that would be the way to really change with the times, instead of just pretending that we hated davros. plus, a companion who is in pain but is still good could be used as a foil against davros who changed his pain into evil. as a quick sidenote, they still made davros' posture all hunched over. that is another trait of disabled people, and the one i've been made fun of more than my wheelchair use. he eliminated the wheelchair, which had a badass design, and just reiterated the "people with hunched over posture are evil schemers!" stereotype, which is worse in my opinion. sorry for the essay. i just wanted to share my opinion. thanks for the video.
I agree that it would be so much better to expand on his backstory as a disabled character instead of removing it(idk if that’s exactly what you were saying but) cos even if they change it there’s still that old version of him out there. Whereas if they had added more context/backstory that old version would make more sense? lmk if u think I’m wrong your opinion is really interesting
Because of my own issues I really like Davros as a disabled person. It reminds me of a way how you approach your disability, your illness, pain. Someone like Davros, who was always a twisted person, would be only more bitter and still having the same twisted approach. He doesn't move, doesn't heal, doesn't improve and it gives you Inspiration to struggle to not be like him. It's more realistic, than it could seem.
I hope that he changes his mind and just makes this Davros pre-accident Davros. I liked pre-accident Davros in this episode, to show he was once human-like. The outfit worn by him was worn in the genesis of the daleks I believe, so it's possible its before
yeah I hope this is just pre accident davros too. I quite liked pre accident davros but I really hope they are not going to permanently erase the old davros we all know and love.
RTD said that there is a long history of villainous wheelchair characters in film and tv but I honestly can only think of three; Dr. Finkelstein. Max Capricorn, and John Lumic. Two of these are RTD characters.
Tbf, I think he was talking about the wider 'disabled villain' trope across alot of media, film, TV, books etc and not just Doctor Who, Look at practically any Bond Villain...
The tradition of disabled or deformed characters being evil goes back to Shakespeare or further. The word sinister comes from being left handed for Christ sake! 😂
Furthermore and taking into account that disability can include disfigurement, a few examples. Richard III Dr Strangelove Dr No Blofeld The Phantom of the Opera The One Armed Man Scar Davros Lumic Le Chiffre Long John Silver The Man of Glass A lot of German officers in WW2 related media. Darth Vader Robert Picardo’s character in Inner Space Almost anyone with an eyepatch. The Joker I could go on.
I feel the reason provided by RTD is a little disrespectful, I've never really heard this be a problem in the past. Everyone loves Davros. Besides I don't think anyone ever really sees Davros as in a wheelchair, it's his life support machine. Even so, highlighting this as a problem and labeling it as disrespectful to wheelchair users is sorta just an able man speaking on behalf of them and making a decision. Oh and isn't this the same person that wrote Astrid killing max Capricorn by using his chair against him? Anyway.. Davros is iconic so it hurts seeing him messed with 🥺
@@plantainsame2049 exactly! Like as an autistic person, I want to be seen as being capable of being a good bean and a bad bitch in a fictional setting. 😤
I think what he was trying to poorly get across was that some might think they’re implying Davros went off the rails BECAUSE he was badly injured as opposed to that just being who he is. I’ll be curious to see how it goes in an actual episode
Pre-accident Davros makes sense, esp for Children in Need. But they need to have a good story reason if they're going to make "present-day" Davros able-bodied. The last time we saw him onscreen, he siphoned a bunch of the Doctor's regeneration energy. That could be a good way to do it, if they insist, without retconning anything
The problem is, if it was a case of pre-accident Davros somehow due to a timeline change didn't have the accident then nobody would really grumble (as much) but the fact RTD has confirmed it's for Wokery reasons now puts the brown lenses on the whole thing.
He was always so scary, smart and powerful that not even once did I think to associate his evilness with his chair. He's such an awesome baddie, I'd think people in wheelchairs would enjoy having representation as villains as well as heroes.
As a child Davros terrified me more so than the Daleks but I never thought he rode around in a wheelchair more that he mutated in the same way as the Mondas Cybermen
The thing that's disturbing about davros is how disfigured he is, he look like he's rotting, as a child I always found him unnerving as intended. But now as an adult I just he's hilarious
I think what was the spit my drink out moment was the "Davros... was a wheelchair user" comment in the Unleashed voice overview. Like the earnestness of that statement. It was like having a Star Wars documentary and the voice over narrator saying with earnestness "Darth Vader... was an asthmatic". Like surely... the lack of self awareness saying something like that made my stomach sink initially. And the new design? He's just Uncle Fester Nyder.
I don’t have a physical disability so maybe I’m being naive but I honestly think that saying a group of people can’t be something is just as offensive. What if there were a wheelchair user actor that wanted to audition for a villain role. Would they not be allowed to because it’s offensive?
I remember in the nineties, I was aware of feminists being opposed to the implicit misogyny of Lady Macbeth, in that she encourages and even pressures MacBeth towards murder - this was a misogynistic trope they would complain. Every actress I knew cited Lady M as their dream role! As is often the case, the identitarians are bad spokespeople for the group they claim to represent the interests of. Why would you want to deprive women of the opportunity to play villains (which are the most interesting characters to play!). That said, Davros has never been played by a handicapped person and he isn't just handicapped; he is horribly disfigured and permanently on a life support (so why didn't he die when the Doctor pulled him out of the chair in Magician's Apprentice? Because Moffat won't let niggling details stand between him and the opportunity of a comedy routine!). I always thought his life support chair was the prototype for the dalek and it now appears to be the other way around.
I am the same with mental "Disabilities" but I think its more ablest as well ableism unlike Racism or something is mainly as its name implies about ability of a person so having them be an evil ruler isn't any bit ablest as they are able to well do just as much if not more than a person who could in Davros' case walk but if we were viewing them differently & thinking they couldn't that's ablest. Not the same as racism or Sexism. I feel like he was meaning well by it & was more on about not wanting to do it in a children in need special & he would be fine with it anywhere else I think he just explained it in a way that sounded wrong.
I agree 🤔 As I wrote under another video, I think RTD certainly means well and I like that he "changed" past Davros for the charity, but (a big but) not only the reason you've mentioned, but also simply taking away his disability just doesn't sit well with me? Because disabilities just can't be taken away (and I know it's not it, but it almost feels like he's being rewarded for being evil)? This is coming from an ambulatory wheelchair user (tho more full time than not), I don't know what to think tbh 🙈 And as mentioned in the video, I feel it also cheapens his storyline in a way :// Edit: I also certainly think that you not having a disability doesn't change the importance of your opinion here at all! 🍀
I think the problem with Davros’ new design (and David not regenerating into Jodie’s clothing) is Russel looking for potential controversies, avoiding them and then calling out the controversy he didn’t do, thus causing the opposite controversy. If they just didn’t address the change (or explain it as a timey-wimey thing), then there wouldn’t be any discourse.
Davros wasn't always a wheelchair user. He was critically injured in a Thal bombardment one month after the death of his mother Calcula. This skit was set before then, wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff permitting. Plus pre accident Davros has nice Grand Moff Tarkin vibes, tying back to Peter Cushing and the Dr Who movies.
The thing is, was this a problem before RTD told us it was a problem? Has anyone here thought to themselves "All armchair users are evil, must hurl abuse at them."? No, not one of us, never. An issue has been made out of a non-issue.
The life support unit is such an important aspect of the character, and I've never seen anyone finding it offensive. The only thing I remember is people jokingly refer to Davros as an old man in a wheelchair with the Doctor pushing him around (I think from reviews of Destiny of the Daleks). So we're now at a point where disabled people can't be villains anymore because apparently it's a stereotype. What about fat people? Can they be villains? What about people who just look evil? Surely they can't be evil because they can't change their looks, for example bags under eyes or being old or having bad skin or teeth. Can't we have Slitheen because it makes fun of fat people and people with flatulence? No Cybermen because of people with artificial limbs? No Sontarans because of people who below 1.5m? According to that logic we can't have villains who are disabled, psychopathic or from any minority group. Which means we basically only get villains like Davros from this sketch. What a terrible way to limit yourselves, and patronizing as well. We can be sure people who fit that description will only be perfectly good people, probably even better than other people. A shame they retconned the smartest wheelchair user in the series... This sounds a lot like something Disney would demand. EDIT: Oh, and with this "new" design it will be almost impossible to recast Davros once "Terry Molloy" doesn't want to do the role anymore. With his previous design anyone could play Davros and be at least immediately recognizable. Now Davros is just a guy.
Now get rid of CyberMEN. Not only is the name SeXiSt but they have replaced most of their bodies so this should offend anyone with a knee replacement or a prosthetic limb
The short as a spoof scene is okay but as canon scene intended for the actual Doctor Who universe it's just wrong. The real problem though is the so called retirement of the cyborg Davros. Davros isn't a man in a wheelchair who is evil because he is disabled. He is an evil man who is sustained with half his body merged with technology. He is an icon of the show. He is also a creation of Terry Nation he doesn't belong to Russell T Davies like John Lumic or Max Capricorn. While I welcome serious stories set before Davros was injured the half man half Dalek shaped Davros isn't something you mess with in the name of virtue signalling.
@@julians552 Well, it happened at least twice before; once toward the end of William Hartnell's stint as The Doctor, when Terry Nation was creating a Dalek spin-off series he was intending to sell to one of the American TV networks featuring the Space Security Service (as appeared in "The Dalek Masterplan") fighting the Daleks (this was why the Cybermen were introduced, as a replacement for the Daleks which the BBC wouldn't have had the rights to use any more), the second time was just before the BBC launched the New Era Doctor Who in 2005 due to copyright difficulties between the BBC & the estate of Terry Nation
I've been a fan of the show since I was 3yrs old (now 27). When I started it was when the show was off tv and cancelled. The first story I saw on VHS was Genesis of the Daleks. Davros was my first and favourite villain. I never saw him as an evil person in a wheelchair I just saw him as an evil mad scientist in a life support system and I thought back that young that he was half a Dalek. Very sad RTD is making such a drastic change to something from my childhood for his reasons 😞
Very similar to the issue with David not regenerating in Jodi's clothing, RTD explaining his reasons makes it worse than whatever my theories were pre-explanation. Just put it out and let the fans fill in the blanks for you. Don't explain how outside sensitivities are affecting a 60-year old sci-fi show.
@@cammydavies4901 No man, literally everyone in the UK knows about Doctor Who. If there was a picture of David in Jodies clothing in the papers, and then everyone would know why that is
Patrick Troughton's second Doctor had different clothes to William Hartnell's first Doctor I think..? What someone is wearing is rather less important than wrecking established history of characters
The past Davros in this short itself doesn’t concern me, nor too the idea of a version of Davros who has become “bipedal” in a future point in the timeline, he’s Davros, I can see him doing anything with his evil genius he puts his mind to in whatever form that takes. what concerns me is RTD’s words, his reasoning, his need to virtue signal that reasoning where that reasoning wasn’t needed. up to this point I have had an incredible amount of faith in RTD to skilfully navigate the waters of needed changes for forward thinking and progressive reasons and knowing where the line between that and narrative consistency and respect for what has been established before lies.. to me, he had always managed to enhance what was important to doctor who while modernising and adjusting, his return to showrunner was to me a signal of understanding that this ship needed to balance past, present and future as we enter the next stage of evolution in the series.. I completely understand that if you have concerns over the depiction of something you want to find ways to update it.. but the way this was done so flippantly, without attempting a recontextualisation that de-emphasises his need to always be shown in that form (something that would need the actual show itself to introduce), alongside RTD’s comments that basically imply that Davros previous incarnation is tantamount to a hate crime if it was ever reused and needed this fix immediately without more tactful adjustment because it is such an egregious thing, yes that concerns me.. it has the same hollow ring to it as so many creatives reasonings given to why things from the past now need to be suddenly, abruptly changed, without carrying over the important narrative things, the things that make that something unique and memorable. with doctor who now on disney+ that sort of broad homogenised approach to dealing with a franchise with a rich deep lore by just washing away the paint in a crude attempt to remove an aged varnish seems par of the course, that concerns me.. why is the brute force of a lumberjack being used where the diligent skill of a surgeon is required? i still have hope that his words in isolation belie the ability in action to craft something transcendent, but I worry its a sign of something flawed in execution that I may bare witness to as I have in so many classic works of fiction in recent times.
i was “watching” this with my eyes closed and when you said this was davros’ permanent design my eyes literally shot open 😭😭what the fuckkkk his old design is iconic and makes his character?!?! i’m really shocked… they definitely could’ve handled this better, at LEAST keep the iconic prosthetic
yeah i'm shocked by this too, it just seems so drastic... like what the heck. Davros is iconic, it's like getting rid of the darth vader for the same reasons. if there was a concern about wheelchair users being associated with evil they could have just casted more wheelchair actors as heroic characters, problem solved. I don't understand why they had to get rid of an iconic character design when theres a simple solution right there.
I agree the clothes regeneration and wheelchair stuff is the wrong mindset to have. It’s fine for a straight man to wear women’s clothing in those circumstances when it makes sense and it’s fine for davros to be evil and be in a chair.
It's not even as if the thirteenth doctor wore "women's clothes" anyway. T shirt and slacks and Mork from Ork braces! The only weird thing would be "why am I wearing a bra?!?" Besides it wouldn't be the first time - The Green Death for example! In fact, how regressive of Davies to be worried about transvestitism now when it was perfectly okay in 1974!!!
I just think everything is going backwards instead of forwards. I hate this idea that everyone has to stay in their box. A straight man can't wear womans clothes, a straight actor can't play a gay person and stuff like that.... and now we have this where we can't have someone whose evil in a wheelchair. If there was a concern about wheelchairs being associated with evil then why couldn't they have just cast more wheelchair actors in heroic roles.... that seems like a much better solution.
@@bec1482 Like Dortmun in Dalek Invasion of Earth, but that was back in 1964 when of course there was no such thing as "diversity"! So much self-congratulation and self-fellating from people who are at war with the culture of the past. Their motto is "The past is like a foreign country - it's full of savages."
I feel like you 100% hit the nail on the head here. If Chris Chibnall had written this, people would be up in arms calling it "woke rubbish" or whatever. Honestly, I love RTD's era of DW and some of his other work, but the decisions he's been making so far, I haven't really been very excited for DW to come back. The clothes really didn't need to change, how on earth is it offensive for a man to wear women's clothes? His reasoning just didn't make any sense, and I feel like13's costume was pretty gender neutral by modern fashion standards. Davros's costume is a huge part of his character, and I can't think of one person who ever complained about the design. Again, his reason just doesn't make any sense to me. Tbh, I've been worried ever since it was announced they were bringing David Tennant back again, though I can at least understand the reasoning for it. But honestly, I was super excited when Ncuti Gatwa was announced as 14, but ever since the last episode aired with Tennant's big reveal, I've just been kinda disappointed.
Jodie's costume was nowhere near gender-neutral. The Master looked absolutely WRONG in those clothes, and Tennant would have too. Besides, this isn't the first time the Doctor's clothes changed in the middle of a regeneration. Maybe in NuWho, but not the whole history of the show.
@@filthycasual8187 Clothes do not have a gender. But even by modern standers it was pretty neutral. I guess only women can wear trousers & t-shirts? This is backwards and the opposite of progressive. Yes, the clothes may have changed once in the past before they'd really established how regeneration works, but it was stupid then & it's stupid now.
I would like to speak on this matter as a disabled person since I haven't heard many disabled people talk about it. I'm in my 20's, have been disabled my whole life and am heartbroken about the change. Davros was my favourite Doctor Who villain. I thought the fact that he couldn't walk was interesting and added to his character. Offensive or not, you have to be willing to take that risk in order to tell good stories. To me, it's not offensive at all and I'm apparently the audience RTD is trying to ''protect''. Then again I'm beyond everything SJW in fiction at this point, because of the overly stupid way it's been handled over the years. Davros is not the same anymore and probably never will be again because people these days are offended by everything that exists. I am honestly heartbroken and do not agree with the change. I understand changing him for Children In Need. That was necessary I think, for obvious reasons. But for the show? Science-FICTION? No thanks. Davros has lost everything that makes him interesting and I'm starting to lose hope for RTD 2 if this is how we're going to continue forward
I think it would have been expedient to leave Davros out of a short sequence like this, until RTD had created a full episode with a worthy origin story for him where we could see the character's evolution, before and after his disfigurement and removed any lingering doubt about the how's and why's of his decent into meglomania . As it is, RTD has created controversy for no reason, by attempting to second guess the public's reaction. It also seems he made statements validating it as proper canon and not just a laugh for a charity fundraiser, yet that's just what it develops into, if he hadn't made that claim too then fans could have taken it as just a bit of fun. In hindsight it would have been better to just avoid any upset completely by not reintroducing Davros at all. RTD has made a serious misstep, and I am now concerned that, in his well-meaning attempt to be PC, he has had the exact opposite effect and aliened a fandom that were so positive about Russell's return. The bite will be extracted out of every villain and situation if writers and producers are constantly worrying about upsetting someone. Credit the fans with more intelligence.
I’m fine with this if they keep certain aspects of his design (the blue eye, the chair perhaps as a throne type thing he can get out of as he pleases) and that they explain that it doesn’t override his og design, simply they he did use to look like that but he’s somehow rejuvenated himself (in fact there is a perfect opportunity to do this because last we saw he absorbed a bunch of regeneration energy)
I never thought of Davros being in a wheelchair. More he was in the lower half of a Dalek unit. It was just missing the top half with the eyestalk, raygun & plunger. As to wheelchair users can't be villians have you seen Dr Strangelove?
I had always had the utmost faith in RTD for the 60th, keeping up hope for what I had hoped would be the satisfying end to the doctor who drought in the past year. I loved the sketch, I stayed up til 3 am to watch it live and I had no regrets. I woke up this morning to open twitter and see that this version of davros was not an early version, but a character redesign. I am appalled, astonished. Davros was one of my favorite villains from some of my favorite epsiodes in all of Doctor who and I can't believe someone I held such high respect for would give such mediocre reasoning behind such a huge change. Obviously, since I am able-bodied I wouldn't know if his prior design was offensive. I would be the biggest supporter for this change if it was, but I cant even recall any moment in my life where i thought of davros as a wheelchair user and connected that to his character. A shame
Big comment being condensed as much as possible; 1. 100% agree with your assessment of how the battle scars gained by Vader and Davros shows how they overcome their injuries, Vader is in pain unable to breathe as he and his master decided he needed to be punished for mustafar, Davros became the Dalek prototype seeing hate and will to survive as the only driving forces worth including. 2. Personally I like seeing the Kaleds again but I miss Davros's face, if he walks that's not a big issue to me since it is a semi canon skit and he is clever enough to make cybernetics but his age, and his dalek eye was part of him body and personality. All in all I like the Kaleds being back as they are a sinister society forged in war and Davros looks cool but not as Davros. 3. I liked the skit as a skit but if it is implied to be canonical that seems not great. 4. Night of the doctor is better but it was meant to be inserted in the canon fully so maybe a bit unfair. Hope these got my thoughts across. I like current Davros's voice because it is very Davros so overall positive feelings. Long comment because of lot of thoughts.
100% Agree The thing is I think by pointing this out and making such a big thing about it he's done the harm he thought he was preventing This kind of reminds me of when I was a kid, maybe 7, and we had to write a list of all our good things and bad things And I put down in the good column that I had a black friend... And then told my black friend Word of advice NEVER do this It is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE thing to do The look of upset on his face still haunts me to this day and I'm in my late 20s Because he probably never thought of being friends with him was a good or bad thing. He was just a person. But by pointing it out I suddenly marginalised him into essentially being a charity case. Someone that others wouldn't want to be friends with because of the colour of their skin I can imagine there's a similar position for a disabled kid at home that's never even thought that being disabled might mean that people think they're evil You know until they watched Doctor Who Unleashed
I know a guy that genuinely agrees with Russell even if people who are wheelchair-bound are saying that they don't care and they disagree with Rusell and kinda forcing them to think like him 💀
Couldn't agree more. I think everything Davies has said from the clothes regenerating to this davros issue have been bizzare and I don't think anyone would have had an issue with either things if they hadn't been changed. Just weird
Davros being in a wheelchair has nothing to do with his character being evil. It's a life support system he built for himself after a catastrophe and shows his genius and ingenuity, qualities which could have been used for good had he not been a child of endless war. I'm as progressive liberal snowflake as they come and have been watching Dr. Who since Tom Baker. I never once looked at Davros and thought his disability was part of what made him evil, and I very much doubt that any Dr. Who fan who uses a wheelchair was ever offended because Davros was also using a wheelchair. Only an able-bodied person would project their own gatekeeping insecurites onto a fictional character like RTD did with this. It makes me question the judgement he's bringing with him as showrunner and a bit nervous about what other iconic parts of the show he might also feel need to be changed.
yeah, not gonna lie I am a bit worried what else hes going to change now.... this seemed to come out of nowhere, I've never heard of people having a problem with davros before all this. It just seems so drastic to me and makes no sense.... a simple solution would have been to create more heroic characters that use wheelchairs instead of discontinuing an iconic character design. I also don't see how it would work myself, never showing that version of him again would be really odd and would limit the stories you could tell because that version of him is such a huge part of the show and dalek history. I mean if a writer had a good story idea for a sequel to genesis of the daleks or any of the many stories that version of davros features in... how would they go about doing that without including davros, it would quite difficult to do.
I never saw him as a wheelchair user. As a kid I always saw him as HALF DALEK. Making him one of them in a way but giving him a face for the doctor to speak with him face to face. The whole point of Davros is to test the doctor's morals by giving him a monstrous immovable irredeemably evil opposite. It's classic theatrics. Davros is NOT disabled
Spot on. If classic Davros was an evil "wheelchair user" then so were ALL the Daleks. This retcon is absurd, and it doesn't inspire confidence in the show's direction moving forward.
I'll wait to see what comes but that Children in Need spot left me a little hollow tbh. The interaction with the birth of the Daleks by the Doctor just felt a little ....... Throw away. I mean ..... These are the DALEKS AND DAVROS, but it all got watered down, imo, with the Doctor naming their change, their rise and the replacing their weapon.
Wheelchair user never crossed my mind when I saw Davros, but I understand the sentiment. I don't think people's mind will directly go to "wheelchair=bad," but hey if this is only for the For the Children short, then I think we'll be fine, but if it bleeds into the actual Doctor Who show, that might be controversial as it a key factor in what makes up Davros' character.
Cripple in a wheelchair here. I take great offense at the suggestion that _I have no agency_ because I am a cripple in a wheelchair. And yes, this insult is enough to toss RTD's return to the show into the wastebasket with Chibnall's run. To quote another fictional supervillian, "Without respect, I must reject."
I automatically thought, it’s Davros as he was, before the Thal bomb blast which blinded and disfigured him, thereby making him dependent on said life support machine 🤷♂️
I’ve a feeling unfortunately you’ll be seeing a *lot* of this kind of “reimagined” stuff in this new era of DW & frankly this is hardly a surprise, when everyone was getting all excited at RTD return, I just kept thinking _why?_ this is the guy that introduced in the first place, much of the stuff that ended up ruining it!. I bet when he saw the state it was in to date, he was thinking: I wish I could’ve gotten to change it _this much_ in my time as show runner. & now he’s got creative control of a whole Dr Who ‘universe’ oh dear.
I love Russell but you are 100% correct! I have cerebral palsy and I am a wheelchair user and this was never an issue for me and it’s made me so mad changing the character that I almost want to come out against it but if there is someone in my situation, who, for whatever reason was offended by it then I would be alienating them so I feel like I can’t win, so I’m not sure if I’m going to say anything in a video or not. Anyway, very well done, my friend! I enjoyed the short overall!
I think the main reason I feel bad is because it puts people against each other for no reason. Obviously none of us as fans want to be mean or attack other fans, but making intentionally divisive comments will do that. I feel like the week before the first special drops is not the time to be controversial but thats just my opinion
They do this with Richard III as well: every so often a well meaning production group decide he shouldn't be played as deformed because it's offensive... even though his deformity is part of his bloody backstory! He talks about being shunned by his fellow man and even dogs bark at him (he claims. Dogs bark at everyone of course; it may be Richard's paranoia that they are treating him differently!). He talks about his envy. He says "if I can not prove a lover then I will prove a villain!" This isn't recent; this has been going on since as long as I can remember.
Most historians today don't believe Richard III was deformed in any way & wasn't as murderous as he was made out to be. A case of history being written by the victorious, it suited the purposes of the winning Lancastrian faction to portray Richard in this manner.
@@andyburton2796 I don't care; it is a tragedy, not a documentary! MacBeth (the real one) did not kill Duncan in his bed. It did not serve the Lamcastrians to portray their political enemy in this manner because Shakespeare was writing over a hundred years later. It served the plot. And Napoleon wasn't all that short, but the archetype of a diminuitive man compensating for his insecurity by being ruthlessly ambitious is nevertheless a meaningful trope.
As someone whose part of a marginalized group I really don't like the concept that everyone in such groups can only be written as wholesome, heroic paragons or only good. Don't get me wrong I do agree showing people as only evil or playing into stereotypes is bad plus representation is a good thing but this feels like he created an issue where there wasn't one to begin with. The arguement he made feels really off for a lot of reasons too, same with the clothing change. Also comes off feeling like people want to sanitise everything in a way.
I really don’t get why russel t davies did this to davros just completely changing everything about his character on something that no one was complaining about i really wanna hear what actual disabled people think about this and if they think its offensive I do still think that maybe he can make something good out of this new davros but thats just my opinion also GOATED VIDEO
My father was in a wheel chair, but made sure his carers got him in bed in plenty of time to see Davros when he knew he was going to be on Dr. Who, you should never change iconic characters, my father loved Davros.
You make some great points as to why this change to Davros isn’t ok. In fact your comparison to Darth Vader hit it spot on. I really hope Davies sees this video or has these points given to him. The Doctor regenerating clothes and seeing pre-accident Davros are interesting ideas and I was hyped to see them but the off-camera reasons why are very strange
Honestly I didn't even know this was meant to be canon. This now has me questioning the timeline of Davros. I thought the creation of the Daleks started after his accidents, because when he revealed the Dalek for the first time everyone was like WOW!!!! But now with this update, it kinda implies first Davros made the Dalek, had his accident, then turned himself into a Dalek. But the Daleks were made after him.
Well it all depends on which version of history you have followed. I think Big Finish did the best job of explaining Davros's history. Anyone who doesn't like this version should try to listen to the "I, Davros" series, and the Sixth Doctor story simply titled "Davros". In those, the character was already a twisted racist genocidal scientist who was working towards the final mutation forms his race would likely become. During this time he got injured in a missile attack which left him in the disfigured and disabled state that he was first shown as. In short, he wasn't evil because he was a wheelchair user, and he wasn't a wheelchair user because he was evil. He just happened to end up being both, and the Mark 3 travel machines were obviously in part designed as an extension of the life support system that kept him alive.
Yeah so Davros was working on what would become the Daleks before his accident but was in the early stages. He had figured out that Kaleds were mutating and was doing experiments to find out their ultimate form and found that they would be weak and defenceless. So he came up with a way to make them strong and to have a way to move. All of this was pre accident then he had the accident and designed his chair to survive and that gave him the base design for his travel machine so his chair was the mark 1. But he had already deduced that the Kaleds would need a travel machine pre accident. So the Children in Need special does mess with the established cannon with able bodied Davros being around by the time the Mark 3 was around as it's predecessor was Davros' own chair which is not a wheelchair but a life support chair.
@@billthewhovian the "new" old Davros could have been explained with the get out of jail free card "Multiverse". For RTD to say this IS THE ACTUAL Davros from now on shows contempt for both the original writer AND the audience. Poor decision.
I'm sorry but character designs are a fundamental part of why people find characters interesting especially in a visual medium. Also, Davros appearance is fundamentally tied to his personality and the origins of the Daleks. I can't seriously believe there are people sat here thinking "Nah, Genesis of the Daleks got it wrong! One of the highest rated and most iconic stories of the franchise was secretly ableist and we, the mighty peoples of 2023 must correct them". Davros design is designed to highlight the horrors of war, the mental impact such horror can have and how easy it is for people to fall back on Fascism to overcome said horror. That is all told through his visual design. They are replacing his iconic and unqiue design with generic angry nazi in all black.
Exactly! This retcon in my mind invalidates the whole raison d'etre for the Daleks. It was because Davros suffered the critical injuries from the Thal bomb attack on the Kaled headquarters, coupled with his research into the effects of the 1000-year nuclear, chemical & bacteriological war on Skaro which led him to develop the "travel machine". Incidentally when his assistant Kastavillan is running the different anagrams of Kaled past Davros he mentions "Klade". I understand that two of the Doctor Who novels mention a humanoid species in the far future called the Klade who apparently trace their linage back to the Daleks... 😉,
I don't get the impression RTD was condemning wheelchair/"travel machine" Davros, just adding a fresh take to the character. It's just as fundamental to change characters over time to keep them interesting. Imagine if all the doctors had Hartnell's outfits?? I for one am grateful for RTD's redesign of the Daleks to be more steampunk, for example. The Daleks are based on the Nazis and the costumes are taken directly from Genesis of the Dalek so it makes sense that that's what he'd wear. I do miss the third blue eye though :/, I hope we get something between the two designs moving forward.
RTD never said that he was retconning the original Davros design out of the canon, the version we see in the short is supposed to be a pre-accident Davros and doesn't contradict the future versions of the character having the design we're familiar with. Davis took the opportunity of making this short for children in need to address a problem that he, and many other people with disabilities, have with characters like Davros who fall into the disfigured/disabled villain trope. By showing Davros prior to receiving his injuries being as cartoonishly evil as he always has been, the sketch divorces the association between Davros' disfigurement/disabilities and his villainy which may have informed or helped reinforce the unconscious bias people develop towards those with disabilities. And the fact that the main issue people have with this version of Davros isn't the changes made to the character but rather the justification for the change shows that many people will uncritically condemn anything they see as "woke" even when those changes are positive in terms of story potential within the narrative and in terms of representation
Except he can open his eyes, he just can't see from them, and the only reason he could in Witch's Familiar is because of the regen energy from 12, so technically no, it doesn't break the story. Otherwise though I completely agree
I hope this is not a permanent change for Davros because he looks like Gru in Despicable Me. I wonder if this was Disney's influence. I am an American who fell in love with Doctor Who in 2005 because it was different than the over produced stuff. Davros in the dalektanium is a staple of the show, and I like the round things.
Thats a good point, I did see someone else in the comments mention that it could be disneys influence too. It wouldn't surprise me if it did have something to do with them.
I was wondering that, too. This sort of change reaks of out of touch disney HR meddling, but I have zero experience with Davies' non-who stuff so I have no idea if this kind of writing decision is in-character for him or not.
I'd honeslty never heard about an accident prior to this skit! You're the first time I've seen anyone actually say what happened to him, I was assuming it was the Doctor’s fault (as the hand was in Genesis- I believe I've not actually seen it). So yes if thats what happened to him that makes more sense. I always did think he was half Dalek but put it more as John Lumic where he got old and ill so needed it not an accident. But I assumed he'd been working on them before. So I had no problem with it for this but if he's back again at any future point looking like that and its supposed to be after any other appearance (bar this and the boy) then its a retcon!
It is untrue that the Timeless Child did not change anything we saw on screen: Matt Smith's doctor grew old because he had *used up his regenerations* (as Time Lords only get 12 -- which also makes Matt Smith's Doctor the 13th incarnation, despite seeing that Capaldi was supposedly the 12th somehow).
@@dwfan91- I'll admit that I barely remember TTC, but I thought it indicated that the Doctor has infinite regenerations -- in which case, I don't see how it fits.
@@celticdragon6918 Nah, the doctor doesn't have infinite regens. A limit was put on him like all other time lords. If anything the ability to *give* regenerations like the Time Lords do in Time of the Doctor, fits in better under TTC explanation. For the record, I'm not saying that it's perfect or even that I like the idea- but that specific instance you mention isn't a plot hole
You are spot on regarding why Davros is in Mark 1 travel machine. He created the Daleks in his own image…. I am a massive STD fan and I am surprised that he unnecessarily fell into this CC trap.
I loved the short. It doesn't make as much sense as I would like, but it was good fun! I don't like the idea that Kaled Davros will be the main one in the future, that just wouldn't make sense. But I enjoyed seeing him in this form in the short, even if it complicates timelines. What are timelines for anyway, if not for messing about with?
Sadly RTD has allowed his desire to to what he perceives as a good thing to cloud his thinking. Absolutely, there is a long term trope of villains having a physical deformity (designed to echo their moral abnormality) - think back to Richard III. And I absolutely agree that that is something which we should be very careful about. And I totally get that this is a skit for Children in Need, which might literally have an audience of those in disabilities. But as you said. The fix is.. DON'T F*CKING USE DAVROS in this scenario. And the wider fix for the genuine problem? Create more positive role models. Give the Doctor a wheelchair bound companion (which I believe Big Finish have done). Don't create villains with this trope... What you shouldn't do is go back and change things that honestly don't need changing. Add complexity to the Davros character. There is so much you can do. Heck you could do something timey-wimey and save Davros from his accident and see how that might change the outcome.
Terry Nation: writer and creator of such classic inventions as The Daleks Davros Blake's 7 as well as lots of episodes of other great shows in the 1960/70s. RTD: creator of great characters like..... Erm, give me a minute I'm sure I'll think of one 😏
I agree with you but I don’t think he’s planning on using Davros again any time soon. And I'm doubtful his character design will remain like this from now on
Russell T Davies answer to critics is "Tough " says all you need to know about his arrogance , No one ever looked at Davros and thought he's an evil person in a wheelchair ....what about the Master before he changed into Nissa's father ....and if we follow Russell T Davie's logic then Darth Vader better watch out , he's an amputee !
Oh no we had to bring back the old davros design but refused to use a wheelchair because we didn’t want to offend wheelchairs, so now davros has a chain around his stomach and is dragged around by a dalek.
I hate this change for a simple reason - Davros designed the Daleks BASED ON HIS DISABILITIES! His mechanical eye became the Dalek eyestalk, his damaged and useless hand became the Dalek plunger arm, his 'wheelchair' became the Dalek's mode of transport... He was the Dalek's 'God' and he made them in his own image. This takes all of that away...
This is a very multi perspective discussion. I can see on one hand we have people with disabilities stating that they had never felt offended or misrepresented by Davros being in his life support chair. On the other we have people with disabilities applauding the change and Russell showing that consideration for how we perceive villains and particular tropes. I think that there’s an exciting opportunity arising with storytelling here and the WHOniverse. This could just be one step in Russell showing how the show can expand through something like the multiverse where a variant of a character will exist, in this case the Davros who wasn’t heavily scarred from the war and how simple actions from the Doctor can cause timelines to change and jump. The seventh doctor alluded to multiple timelines existing, wherein in one he grew old and didn’t regenerate. This is how Russell is opening up opportunities for actors past to return even away from the show’s canon. I can see how now having a fully humanoid Davros can limit how he is presented on the show too. One of the benefits of the iconic look previously is that Davros could be brought back over the years played by different actors but conveying the character with his iconic appearance, which was the chair, the mask and the eye. As a humanoid character, if the show was to last another sixty years, the part would inevitably need to be recast, which would need a bit more suspension of disbelief from an audience seeing as Davros isn’t a character who regenerates. This isn’t impossible, but having a character with iconic design elements does make it easier. It must have been lovely for Julian Bleach not to need to sit in makeup for hours for what would have been over a minute of screen time. Here he’s really getting to use his voice and face, which is part of the reason that he was cast in the first place. As we know it was never purely about Davros being disabled. By his appearance in Remembrance of the Daleks he became their emperor and was a head in a Dalek machine. He had very much become his own creations and abandoned the last vestiges of his humanity (Kaledity?) this is to show what happens when we become like machines. Davros had a massive god complex and created the Daleks in his image. When Russell brought Davros back in 2008 he reverted Davros to look more like he did in Genesis of the Daleks rather than expand from the canon of the 80’s. By that point Davros could have been an AI projecting himself from a Dalek casing having become completely mutated. However of course things do change and do progress on screen and we are now riding a wave of change. This is akin to how characters might sometimes have been black faced or yellow faced like in The Talons of Wen Chiang. We know that such things would not and cannot be done now. How disabled people are conveyed on screen is another example of how things can change, and the resistance that we are seeing is the byproduct of perhaps the guilt many have felt ever thinking that that may have been acceptable at one time, or may be seeing the scene when the Doctor took Davros’ chair and left him on the floor through a different lens now. That can be very uncomfortable to consider. At the same time is there still a way to create a new iconic look for Davros? Can he still be mutated from the war or scarred in some way to convey how nasty it is and still be able to walk? As a leading Kaled scientist could he ride around in a hover podium that looks somewhat like a Dalek bottom half to show it’s his design but not have the life support element. It would be akin to the Green Goblin’s glider which would allow Davros to fly over his creations as he watches them exterminate.
Brill video, subscribed to your channel. Best part is describing the new series as fan fiction, totally agree. I only watched Queer as Folk due to the character who loved the show. Took a sketch from that and copied it with Martha Jones first telephone call to her family. I did think Moffat did well 8nventing the weeping angels but have yet to see something more interesting from RTD, I was mortified to hear of his return.
sometimes commenting on your videos is hard for me because it's similar to when you have to reply to a classmate's response in an online assignment. where all you can think of saying "i agree" since they hit all the marks 😭 BUT i will say. with this redesign, davros now looks like the critic from ratatouille. you ate with that line about how davros being blind was both literal as it was metaphorical and how the symbolism is kinda thrown out the window with this redesign. physical attributes have always been utilized in literature and all media as a means of symbolism- usually to signify a pivotal shift in a character. not always bad, of course, but one that defines them from then on. its a visual distinction that often boosts the story and gives the audience insight of why the character makes certain choices. not justification, but perception. and i think u hit the nail right on the head when you brought up how critical davros' appearance is to his character. of course, i cant speak for anyone else who may believe his being half dalek seemed ableist, because its not my place to. i will just uphold my opinion on how vital visual symbolism can be with storytelling.
I think that whilst this change may be a controversial one considering how it has been engrained in his backstory by this point, Russell is not wrong in pointing out there is a very real trope of crippled=evil in media that should be rectified. I think that if the reaction to this change is a negative one then they can just brush it off as a non-canon CiN sketch, which is a smart choice. Ultimately, this reaction has been pretty similar to any time the doctor who villains have been redesigned, like the Daleks, the Cybermen or any of the others. In time, the change will become normalised, or it may be completely scrapped. I do not think it is something that we should be worrying about.
Well but in real life some people do react negatively because they can't process the trauma of becoming disabled. Is not good to show a one sided perspective. Not all disabled people are inspiring and not all disabled people are good or evil. Besides, Davros didn't become evil because of his accident. He survived a random missile blast. Before his accident he was planning the same things. The disability just made him bitter, angrier and more determined. Which also happens in real life. We like to believe people with disabilities are cheerful and inspiring but that's also not true.
I would say I am super progressive and this is very stupid and I agree its made me nervous going forward for what other things davies might change flippantly going forward, I'm a bit worried about him becoming the doctor who tyrant
People are so focused on the history of this show and complaining leaving no room to think about the FUTURE. We already seen Davros as a child so why would seeing him as an adult man be any different. The Doctor playing a role in their creation was inevitable. Playing with time always makes those events happen which we have seen time and time again in the show.
In 'Genesis of the Daleks', Davros was played by the late Michael Wisher, who was the original and best. Elisabeth Sladen said of him that, during rehearsals, he wore a paper bag over his head because he knew that in the studio recordings, John Friedlander's mask would allow him no facial movement or expression. As a result, he had to create the character using only his voice, and he gave a towering performance. Terry Nation should have definitively killed off Davros at the end of the story because, rather like the Master, he ended up as an overused character and panto villain, and none of the actors who followed was as good.
I might not know about the story much, but does he look like that because The Doctor saved him from those weird hands and from the bomb in the episode The Witch's familiar?
To be honest, if they retconn the Timeless Children and it changes Davros to this, I’d be okay with it. It would at least show cause and effect and could haunt the Doctor in terms of decisions that get made and their ripple effects.
Leave your thoughts on the short below and I'll get to work on the Community Reaction video! Hope you enjoy
I thought it was really cool. I don't know who the director was (they were probably included in the unleashed short), but they cooked so hard, especially in the first few shots of the dalek. The comedy aspect kinda annoyed me a little bit, but other than that it was so insanely good. The Davros design change is an interesting choice. I can agree with both sides. I get how many people feel uncomfortable with Davros' design, but I get how it isn't a wheelchair. Its a whole can of worms that I don't want to get into. It was a really good short, and I loved it.
I think there's a lot of reading into RTD's mind. For instance, you don't know if RTD has or hasn't spoken with disabled people. I really liked Years and Years, perhaps working with Ruth Madely has shifted his opinion, maybe the two of them have spoken about it as colleagues. We don't know.
From RTD's quote, I don't think he's "Reducing disabled people down to the disablities and adding moral virtue to that," he's bringing up how in a wider context, there is a pattern and that Davros, taken as part of a tapestry of villains in media, fits into that regardless of in-universe context or character (not to say that's not important, just that the mere existence of it doesn't prevent the perception in a wider audience.
I'm not gonna dislike this video, but I would say that going forward, make less conclusions about what it going on in other peiople's minds, and try to keep it centered on your thoughts - which I think aren't mean-spirited or ableist in intention or goal.
I thought it was a fun little romp that I didn't take too seriously. I view it like I view Time Crash. It's not anything exceptional, but for what it is, its cute and inoffensive
I loved the idea of The Doctor being directly responsible for the plunger and the name, Dalek but making Davros support the plungers, just seemed too silly for something that is "not a comedy sketch". Still, showing how even though the Doctor failed to avert their creation in Genesis of The Daleks, he still made them less threatening in Destination: Skaro. I have no position to argue the canonicity of this (basically like the Big Finish audio dramas), so we'll just have to wait to find out. Even though the thought of an evil wheelchair user may be controversial, they shouldn't have changed a major character. Davies should have chosen another villain or made another villain, but I'm not that mad.
It's ok as a prequel to "Gensis of the Daleks," though it upends assumptions about how and when Davros developed his life support system. But between RTD's explanation of why he wouldn't regenerate DT into JW's clothes, and his idea of disabled people as being portrayed as evil, I think he's signaling virtue that no one was really looking for. At the very least, he didn't have to say anything about it.
It's important to remember that, ten years before he gave us Davros, Terry Nation gave us Dortmun, a brave, resourceful scientist in a wheelchair who fought the Daleks in 'The Dalek Invasion of Earth'. Disabled people are people. Some are nice, some are nasty.
What an incredible point, would you mind if I used this comment in the video?
@@dwfan91- Thanks, sure, please do!
Oooh! You know, I'd completely forgotten that until you mentioned it! 😀👍
Yes, I was going to mention him too.
Yes! This was one of the first things I thought of, one of the first dalek stories has a wheelchair goodie (I really liked him!)
The 12th Doctor is now a Villian stealing a old blind mans wheelchair and doing donuts infront of his kids 💀
loved that scene 🤣🤣
"anyone for dodgems?"
@@brendan.coyle2 admit it... you've all had this exact Nightmare!
Where did this scene in the video go? It made me laugh and now I cant find it🤦♀️😂
He’s space hitler
It's not a wheelchair, it's the lower half of a dalek. He's half dalek. That was the conception of the character.
HE came first story wise, he created the daleks housing to resemble his own ''wheelchair ''
@natredderz7580 no he did not invent a wheelchair and then derived Daleks from wheelchairs. The half-dalek design is a prototype of dalek technology
@@Lennonlover06 Yes which he was working on when he was nearly killed and then was given a proof of concept when used to save his own life.
🎯
@@Lennonlover06
I can only think that RTD is planning for a cop out for Davros along the lines of The Giggle, when the only Davros that's left is one of his clones from Revelation...(as it in nowhere resembles a normal wheelchair, the only yardstick would be an Electric scooter - so Davros packs it all in, lives on earth with a bag over his head and opens a shop selling electric scooters for the elderly and wealthy).
The difference between a hero and a villain is how they respond to the pain of their life. Davros is the epitome of a villain who turned his pain into hatred.
Professor X is like the opposite example
Exactly. Davros' only disabilities are ethical and moral.
Just like me
@@master1442p I think he does care quite abit its just people dont see eye to eye with his descision making. I think he'd be best introducing heroic characters who have faced similar trials.
Saying that villians cant be in a wheel chair is offensive to evil people.
I think it's more making a person evil because of their disability can be a bit suspect
@@triplejazzmusicisall1883 Like yes you can have villains who are disabled....but make it so their villainy wasnt caused by it. Or at best make them an anti villain. Like say, a character who lost limbs or the like due to malice from a scummy corp. But dont make thsm evil because theyre disabled
Facts
@chrisdiokno5600 Except Davros isn't evil because his disability, his disability was just the trigger
@@chrisdiokno5600Really doesn't work that way. That just isn't real. Joker? Disfigurement via vat of acid, villain. Davros, accident, disfigured, villain. People need to grow up and stop looking for so many reasons to be offended all the time
I can understand the decision to leave the ‘Davros wheelchair’ out of this Children In Need episode, but as I don’t think I’m the only one who has never thought of Davros as being a wheelchair user, never mind representing all wheelchair users, I hope this does not mean he will never be shown as half-Dalek ever again.
If anything he's more akin to a centaur in concept, man from the waist up and Dalek from the waist down. It's not like he was born with a disability; his was elective due to his mad science experiments.
I honestly never thought of Davros being in a wheelchair until RTD talked about it. I don't know why, but it never clicked to me before he said that. I just thought it was his second half.
Never thought of him as a wheelchair user either more like a proto Dalek but so what ?
The fact that this was NEVER spoken about in public discourse or fan circles proves the point that it was never a big deal. Twitter was already around and already nuts in 2015 when Davros last appeared but no one said anything
@@227060 yeah thats a good point, if it was such a big deal then why didn't twitter say anything at that time, normally they let everyone know when something offends them or is problematic but i never heard anything from them...
hi. i'm physically disabled and i'm glad the fandom is talking about this because it is so confusing to me. while i don't have facial scarring or blindness, i am an ambulatory wheelchair user (i use a wheelchair when travelling medium to long distances) so i will be mainly discussing that part of the retcon.
when i watched journey's end, i never really saw davros as amazing representation, but i did vaugely recognise him as a wheelchair user, and i thought the whole dalek as a wheelchair design was cool as hell. i don't mind that davros wasn't amazing rep, because he didn't have to be rep. he's a sci-fi character that registered as alien in my head. to me, thinking davros represented all disabled people would be like thinking the 10th doctor represented all men. just because a character belongs to that demographic, doesn't mean they represent it.
now, upon hearing davros' backstory (i never thought i'd say this): i relate to him. the idea of your pain making you want to... exterminate... everything and start anew is something i can (and i think a lot of disabled people can) relate to. plus, the fact that he's a genius who created a whole race whilst being disabled is again, quite cool. hearing that RTD decided to delete this whole backstory that is actually quite relatable and then turn around and say he did it for us is just annoying.
if RTD really wanted to benefit disabled people, he should have decided to in future davros storylines, centre his story around disability and reiterate his backstory for nuwho watchers like me who did not know. it would both make his character more sympathetic and open up a conversation around disabled people's pain, which is something i feel people rarely fully consider. ALSO, a disabled companion would be a great idea imo. i know we had ryan, but in the words of my dyspraxic best friend: dyspraxia isn't the fear of ladders. so, if we had a fully-fleshed out physically disabled companion (played by an actor with the character's disability, hopefully), that would be the way to really change with the times, instead of just pretending that we hated davros. plus, a companion who is in pain but is still good could be used as a foil against davros who changed his pain into evil.
as a quick sidenote, they still made davros' posture all hunched over. that is another trait of disabled people, and the one i've been made fun of more than my wheelchair use. he eliminated the wheelchair, which had a badass design, and just reiterated the "people with hunched over posture are evil schemers!" stereotype, which is worse in my opinion.
sorry for the essay. i just wanted to share my opinion. thanks for the video.
Great comment!
Mate never apologise for an essay lol, especially when it's an opinion based on your reality
You're completely correct! He just changed tropes from "Dr. Strangelove" to "Richard III"! 😆😆😆
THANK YOU for the essay. Interesting dilemma.
I agree that it would be so much better to expand on his backstory as a disabled character instead of removing it(idk if that’s exactly what you were saying but) cos even if they change it there’s still that old version of him out there. Whereas if they had added more context/backstory that old version would make more sense? lmk if u think I’m wrong your opinion is really interesting
Because of my own issues I really like Davros as a disabled person. It reminds me of a way how you approach your disability, your illness, pain. Someone like Davros, who was always a twisted person, would be only more bitter and still having the same twisted approach. He doesn't move, doesn't heal, doesn't improve and it gives you Inspiration to struggle to not be like him. It's more realistic, than it could seem.
I hope that he changes his mind and just makes this Davros pre-accident Davros. I liked pre-accident Davros in this episode, to show he was once human-like. The outfit worn by him was worn in the genesis of the daleks I believe, so it's possible its before
yeah I hope this is just pre accident davros too. I quite liked pre accident davros but I really hope they are not going to permanently erase the old davros we all know and love.
RTD said that there is a long history of villainous wheelchair characters in film and tv but I honestly can only think of three; Dr. Finkelstein. Max Capricorn, and John Lumic. Two of these are RTD characters.
yeah the only one i could think of was john lumic
Tbf, I think he was talking about the wider 'disabled villain' trope across alot of media, film, TV, books etc and not just Doctor Who, Look at practically any Bond Villain...
The tradition of disabled or deformed characters being evil goes back to Shakespeare or further. The word sinister comes from being left handed for Christ sake! 😂
@@conorcrilly1304I'm currently binging a lot of Bond movies and I must say hardly any villain is in a wheelchair.
Furthermore and taking into account that disability can include disfigurement, a few examples.
Richard III
Dr Strangelove
Dr No
Blofeld
The Phantom of the Opera
The One Armed Man
Scar
Davros
Lumic
Le Chiffre
Long John Silver
The Man of Glass
A lot of German officers in WW2 related media.
Darth Vader
Robert Picardo’s character in Inner Space
Almost anyone with an eyepatch.
The Joker
I could go on.
I feel the reason provided by RTD is a little disrespectful, I've never really heard this be a problem in the past.
Everyone loves Davros. Besides I don't think anyone ever really sees Davros as in a wheelchair, it's his life support machine. Even so, highlighting this as a problem and labeling it as disrespectful to wheelchair users is sorta just an able man speaking on behalf of them and making a decision.
Oh and isn't this the same person that wrote Astrid killing max Capricorn by using his chair against him?
Anyway.. Davros is iconic so it hurts seeing him messed with 🥺
It also implies that wheelchair users don't have the capacity of evil which dehumanizes them
I agree
@@plantainsame2049 exactly! Like as an autistic person, I want to be seen as being capable of being a good bean and a bad bitch in a fictional setting. 😤
I think what he was trying to poorly get across was that some might think they’re implying Davros went off the rails BECAUSE he was badly injured as opposed to that just being who he is. I’ll be curious to see how it goes in an actual episode
just feels lazy now its just some generic guy.
Pre-accident Davros makes sense, esp for Children in Need. But they need to have a good story reason if they're going to make "present-day" Davros able-bodied. The last time we saw him onscreen, he siphoned a bunch of the Doctor's regeneration energy. That could be a good way to do it, if they insist, without retconning anything
The problem is, if it was a case of pre-accident Davros somehow due to a timeline change didn't have the accident then nobody would really grumble (as much) but the fact RTD has confirmed it's for Wokery reasons now puts the brown lenses on the whole thing.
He was always so scary, smart and powerful that not even once did I think to associate his evilness with his chair. He's such an awesome baddie, I'd think people in wheelchairs would enjoy having representation as villains as well as heroes.
As a child Davros terrified me more so than the Daleks but I never thought he rode around in a wheelchair more that he mutated in the same way as the Mondas Cybermen
The thing that's disturbing about davros is how disfigured he is, he look like he's rotting, as a child I always found him unnerving as intended. But now as an adult I just he's hilarious
I think what was the spit my drink out moment was the "Davros... was a wheelchair user" comment in the Unleashed voice overview.
Like the earnestness of that statement. It was like having a Star Wars documentary and the voice over narrator saying with earnestness "Darth Vader... was an asthmatic".
Like surely... the lack of self awareness saying something like that made my stomach sink initially.
And the new design? He's just Uncle Fester Nyder.
"Uncle Fester Nyder" 🤣🤣🤣
I don’t have a physical disability so maybe I’m being naive but I honestly think that saying a group of people can’t be something is just as offensive. What if there were a wheelchair user actor that wanted to audition for a villain role. Would they not be allowed to because it’s offensive?
don't downplay your own opinion because of an immutable characteristic🙏
I remember in the nineties, I was aware of feminists being opposed to the implicit misogyny of Lady Macbeth, in that she encourages and even pressures MacBeth towards murder - this was a misogynistic trope they would complain. Every actress I knew cited Lady M as their dream role! As is often the case, the identitarians are bad spokespeople for the group they claim to represent the interests of. Why would you want to deprive women of the opportunity to play villains (which are the most interesting characters to play!).
That said, Davros has never been played by a handicapped person and he isn't just handicapped; he is horribly disfigured and permanently on a life support (so why didn't he die when the Doctor pulled him out of the chair in Magician's Apprentice? Because Moffat won't let niggling details stand between him and the opportunity of a comedy routine!). I always thought his life support chair was the prototype for the dalek and it now appears to be the other way around.
I am the same with mental "Disabilities" but I think its more ablest as well ableism unlike Racism or something is mainly as its name implies about ability of a person so having them be an evil ruler isn't any bit ablest as they are able to well do just as much if not more than a person who could in Davros' case walk but if we were viewing them differently & thinking they couldn't that's ablest. Not the same as racism or Sexism. I feel like he was meaning well by it & was more on about not wanting to do it in a children in need special & he would be fine with it anywhere else I think he just explained it in a way that sounded wrong.
I agree 🤔 As I wrote under another video, I think RTD certainly means well and I like that he "changed" past Davros for the charity, but (a big but) not only the reason you've mentioned, but also simply taking away his disability just doesn't sit well with me? Because disabilities just can't be taken away (and I know it's not it, but it almost feels like he's being rewarded for being evil)? This is coming from an ambulatory wheelchair user (tho more full time than not), I don't know what to think tbh 🙈 And as mentioned in the video, I feel it also cheapens his storyline in a way ://
Edit: I also certainly think that you not having a disability doesn't change the importance of your opinion here at all! 🍀
I think the problem with Davros’ new design (and David not regenerating into Jodie’s clothing) is Russel looking for potential controversies, avoiding them and then calling out the controversy he didn’t do, thus causing the opposite controversy.
If they just didn’t address the change (or explain it as a timey-wimey thing), then there wouldn’t be any discourse.
Absolutely 💯 👏
Why would David wear Jodie's clothes be controversial?
I do believe the 3 episisodes w/ David and Donna will be my last
Davros wasn't always a wheelchair user. He was critically injured in a Thal bombardment one month after the death of his mother Calcula. This skit was set before then, wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff permitting.
Plus pre accident Davros has nice Grand Moff Tarkin vibes, tying back to Peter Cushing and the Dr Who movies.
This is only gonna be the case if RTD sticks with the novelisation, which I hope he does, but he might not. Instead he might want to do his own story.
The thing is, was this a problem before RTD told us it was a problem? Has anyone here thought to themselves "All armchair users are evil, must hurl abuse at them."? No, not one of us, never. An issue has been made out of a non-issue.
my thoughts exactly. controversy started for no reason
@@dwfan91- As for you, young man, you keep up the good work. It's appreciated.
exactly, I have never heard of anyone having an issue with davros before all this either. It's all just come out of nowhere.
This is what the far left do all the time... I'm now worried about Doctor Who again after a brief period of hope because it was RTD.
Google 'Evil Cripple'. You not hearing about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's not an obscure trope.
you tricked me into thinking this video wouldn't have a "whats up every body"
The life support unit is such an important aspect of the character, and I've never seen anyone finding it offensive. The only thing I remember is people jokingly refer to Davros as an old man in a wheelchair with the Doctor pushing him around (I think from reviews of Destiny of the Daleks).
So we're now at a point where disabled people can't be villains anymore because apparently it's a stereotype. What about fat people? Can they be villains? What about people who just look evil? Surely they can't be evil because they can't change their looks, for example bags under eyes or being old or having bad skin or teeth.
Can't we have Slitheen because it makes fun of fat people and people with flatulence? No Cybermen because of people with artificial limbs? No Sontarans because of people who below 1.5m?
According to that logic we can't have villains who are disabled, psychopathic or from any minority group. Which means we basically only get villains like Davros from this sketch. What a terrible way to limit yourselves, and patronizing as well. We can be sure people who fit that description will only be perfectly good people, probably even better than other people. A shame they retconned the smartest wheelchair user in the series...
This sounds a lot like something Disney would demand.
EDIT: Oh, and with this "new" design it will be almost impossible to recast Davros once "Terry Molloy" doesn't want to do the role anymore. With his previous design anyone could play Davros and be at least immediately recognizable. Now Davros is just a guy.
_"This sounds a lot like something Disney would demand."_
Bingo. 100% on target.
only white men can be villains now
Now get rid of CyberMEN. Not only is the name SeXiSt but they have replaced most of their bodies so this should offend anyone with a knee replacement or a prosthetic limb
The short as a spoof scene is okay but as canon scene intended for the actual Doctor Who universe it's just wrong. The real problem though is the so called retirement of the cyborg Davros. Davros isn't a man in a wheelchair who is evil because he is disabled. He is an evil man who is sustained with half his body merged with technology. He is an icon of the show. He is also a creation of Terry Nation he doesn't belong to Russell T Davies like John Lumic or Max Capricorn. While I welcome serious stories set before Davros was injured the half man half Dalek shaped Davros isn't something you mess with in the name of virtue signalling.
Imagine if the Terry Nation estate revoked the license for the Daleks and Davros because of that
@@julians552 Well, it happened at least twice before; once toward the end of William Hartnell's stint as The Doctor, when Terry Nation was creating a Dalek spin-off series he was intending to sell to one of the American TV networks featuring the Space Security Service (as appeared in "The Dalek Masterplan") fighting the Daleks (this was why the Cybermen were introduced, as a replacement for the Daleks which the BBC wouldn't have had the rights to use any more), the second time was just before the BBC launched the New Era Doctor Who in 2005 due to copyright difficulties between the BBC & the estate of Terry Nation
@@julians552 well if they do I wouldn't blame them
I've been a fan of the show since I was 3yrs old (now 27). When I started it was when the show was off tv and cancelled. The first story I saw on VHS was Genesis of the Daleks. Davros was my first and favourite villain. I never saw him as an evil person in a wheelchair I just saw him as an evil mad scientist in a life support system and I thought back that young that he was half a Dalek. Very sad RTD is making such a drastic change to something from my childhood for his reasons 😞
Don't you think he looks tired?
The Daleks are now the Wheelchair Monsters. Thanks, RTD, for opening our eyes to what they really represent!
Very similar to the issue with David not regenerating in Jodi's clothing, RTD explaining his reasons makes it worse than whatever my theories were pre-explanation. Just put it out and let the fans fill in the blanks for you. Don't explain how outside sensitivities are affecting a 60-year old sci-fi show.
Nah, it's entirely correct to not do the David in Jodie's clothing bit. Media isn't created in a vacuum
@@cammydavies4901 No man, literally everyone in the UK knows about Doctor Who. If there was a picture of David in Jodies clothing in the papers, and then everyone would know why that is
@@TetchyEquation not a man, but even if on a level I know why it is, tabloids wouldn't be running with that
Patrick Troughton's second Doctor had different clothes to William Hartnell's first Doctor I think..?
What someone is wearing is rather less important than wrecking established history of characters
The past Davros in this short itself doesn’t concern me, nor too the idea of a version of Davros who has become “bipedal” in a future point in the timeline, he’s Davros, I can see him doing anything with his evil genius he puts his mind to in whatever form that takes.
what concerns me is RTD’s words, his reasoning, his need to virtue signal that reasoning where that reasoning wasn’t needed.
up to this point I have had an incredible amount of faith in RTD to skilfully navigate the waters of needed changes for forward thinking and progressive reasons and knowing where the line between that and narrative consistency and respect for what has been established before lies.. to me, he had always managed to enhance what was important to doctor who while modernising and adjusting, his return to showrunner was to me a signal of understanding that this ship needed to balance past, present and future as we enter the next stage of evolution in the series.. I completely understand that if you have concerns over the depiction of something you want to find ways to update it.. but the way this was done so flippantly, without attempting a recontextualisation that de-emphasises his need to always be shown in that form (something that would need the actual show itself to introduce), alongside RTD’s comments that basically imply that Davros previous incarnation is tantamount to a hate crime if it was ever reused and needed this fix immediately without more tactful adjustment because it is such an egregious thing, yes that concerns me.. it has the same hollow ring to it as so many creatives reasonings given to why things from the past now need to be suddenly, abruptly changed, without carrying over the important narrative things, the things that make that something unique and memorable.
with doctor who now on disney+ that sort of broad homogenised approach to dealing with a franchise with a rich deep lore by just washing away the paint in a crude attempt to remove an aged varnish seems par of the course, that concerns me.. why is the brute force of a lumberjack being used where the diligent skill of a surgeon is required? i still have hope that his words in isolation belie the ability in action to craft something transcendent, but I worry its a sign of something flawed in execution that I may bare witness to as I have in so many classic works of fiction in recent times.
i was “watching” this with my eyes closed and when you said this was davros’ permanent design my eyes literally shot open 😭😭what the fuckkkk his old design is iconic and makes his character?!?! i’m really shocked… they definitely could’ve handled this better, at LEAST keep the iconic prosthetic
yeah i'm shocked by this too, it just seems so drastic... like what the heck. Davros is iconic, it's like getting rid of the darth vader for the same reasons.
if there was a concern about wheelchair users being associated with evil they could have just casted more wheelchair actors as heroic characters, problem solved. I don't understand why they had to get rid of an iconic character design when theres a simple solution right there.
This is before his accident, though?
@@AshanBhatoa But it's also intended to be his permanent design going forward. So it's also a retcon.
it's a prequel ...
I agree the clothes regeneration and wheelchair stuff is the wrong mindset to have.
It’s fine for a straight man to wear women’s clothing in those circumstances when it makes sense and it’s fine for davros to be evil and be in a chair.
It's not even as if the thirteenth doctor wore "women's clothes" anyway. T shirt and slacks and Mork from Ork braces! The only weird thing would be "why am I wearing a bra?!?"
Besides it wouldn't be the first time - The Green Death for example! In fact, how regressive of Davies to be worried about transvestitism now when it was perfectly okay in 1974!!!
I just think everything is going backwards instead of forwards. I hate this idea that everyone has to stay in their box. A straight man can't wear womans clothes, a straight actor can't play a gay person and stuff like that.... and now we have this where we can't have someone whose evil in a wheelchair.
If there was a concern about wheelchairs being associated with evil then why couldn't they have just cast more wheelchair actors in heroic roles.... that seems like a much better solution.
@@bec1482
Like Dortmun in Dalek Invasion of Earth, but that was back in 1964 when of course there was no such thing as "diversity"! So much self-congratulation and self-fellating from people who are at war with the culture of the past. Their motto is "The past is like a foreign country - it's full of savages."
I feel like you 100% hit the nail on the head here. If Chris Chibnall had written this, people would be up in arms calling it "woke rubbish" or whatever. Honestly, I love RTD's era of DW and some of his other work, but the decisions he's been making so far, I haven't really been very excited for DW to come back.
The clothes really didn't need to change, how on earth is it offensive for a man to wear women's clothes? His reasoning just didn't make any sense, and I feel like13's costume was pretty gender neutral by modern fashion standards. Davros's costume is a huge part of his character, and I can't think of one person who ever complained about the design. Again, his reason just doesn't make any sense to me. Tbh, I've been worried ever since it was announced they were bringing David Tennant back again, though I can at least understand the reasoning for it. But honestly, I was super excited when Ncuti Gatwa was announced as 14, but ever since the last episode aired with Tennant's big reveal, I've just been kinda disappointed.
Jodie's costume was nowhere near gender-neutral. The Master looked absolutely WRONG in those clothes, and Tennant would have too.
Besides, this isn't the first time the Doctor's clothes changed in the middle of a regeneration. Maybe in NuWho, but not the whole history of the show.
@@filthycasual8187 Clothes do not have a gender. But even by modern standers it was pretty neutral. I guess only women can wear trousers & t-shirts?
This is backwards and the opposite of progressive. Yes, the clothes may have changed once in the past before they'd really established how regeneration works, but it was stupid then & it's stupid now.
I would like to speak on this matter as a disabled person since I haven't heard many disabled people talk about it. I'm in my 20's, have been disabled my whole life and am heartbroken about the change. Davros was my favourite Doctor Who villain. I thought the fact that he couldn't walk was interesting and added to his character. Offensive or not, you have to be willing to take that risk in order to tell good stories. To me, it's not offensive at all and I'm apparently the audience RTD is trying to ''protect''. Then again I'm beyond everything SJW in fiction at this point, because of the overly stupid way it's been handled over the years. Davros is not the same anymore and probably never will be again because people these days are offended by everything that exists. I am honestly heartbroken and do not agree with the change. I understand changing him for Children In Need. That was necessary I think, for obvious reasons. But for the show? Science-FICTION? No thanks. Davros has lost everything that makes him interesting and I'm starting to lose hope for RTD 2 if this is how we're going to continue forward
Beautifully said. RTD’s quote is idiotic.
Fellow disabled person here, I agree with you 100%. Russell needs to leave Davros be.
RTD needs to listen to people instead of being dismissive
I do agree with your points regarding Davros. His original design was perfect.
I think it would have been expedient to leave Davros out of a short sequence like this, until RTD had created a full episode with a worthy origin story for him where we could see the character's evolution, before and after his disfigurement and removed any lingering doubt about the how's and why's of his decent into meglomania . As it is, RTD has created controversy for no reason, by attempting to second guess the public's reaction. It also seems he made statements validating it as proper canon and not just a laugh for a charity fundraiser, yet that's just what it develops into, if he hadn't made that claim too then fans could have taken it as just a bit of fun. In hindsight it would have been better to just avoid any upset completely by not reintroducing Davros at all. RTD has made a serious misstep, and I am now concerned that, in his well-meaning attempt to be PC, he has had the exact opposite effect and aliened a fandom that were so positive about Russell's return. The bite will be extracted out of every villain and situation if writers and producers are constantly worrying about upsetting someone. Credit the fans with more intelligence.
I’m fine with this if they keep certain aspects of his design (the blue eye, the chair perhaps as a throne type thing he can get out of as he pleases) and that they explain that it doesn’t override his og design, simply they he did use to look like that but he’s somehow rejuvenated himself (in fact there is a perfect opportunity to do this because last we saw he absorbed a bunch of regeneration energy)
I never thought of Davros being in a wheelchair. More he was in the lower half of a Dalek unit. It was just missing the top half with the eyestalk, raygun & plunger. As to wheelchair users can't be villians have you seen Dr Strangelove?
I had always had the utmost faith in RTD for the 60th, keeping up hope for what I had hoped would be the satisfying end to the doctor who drought in the past year. I loved the sketch, I stayed up til 3 am to watch it live and I had no regrets. I woke up this morning to open twitter and see that this version of davros was not an early version, but a character redesign. I am appalled, astonished. Davros was one of my favorite villains from some of my favorite epsiodes in all of Doctor who and I can't believe someone I held such high respect for would give such mediocre reasoning behind such a huge change. Obviously, since I am able-bodied I wouldn't know if his prior design was offensive. I would be the biggest supporter for this change if it was, but I cant even recall any moment in my life where i thought of davros as a wheelchair user and connected that to his character. A shame
well your first problem was going on twitter
I don't have anything constructive or positive to say about what I've seen so far of this 'new' era of Doctor Who.
I am going to have to agree
All 6 minutes of it?
@@somerandomguy2073 we're coming up on 13 months😂
Big comment being condensed as much as possible;
1. 100% agree with your assessment of how the battle scars gained by Vader and Davros shows how they overcome their injuries, Vader is in pain unable to breathe as he and his master decided he needed to be punished for mustafar, Davros became the Dalek prototype seeing hate and will to survive as the only driving forces worth including.
2. Personally I like seeing the Kaleds again but I miss Davros's face, if he walks that's not a big issue to me since it is a semi canon skit and he is clever enough to make cybernetics but his age, and his dalek eye was part of him body and personality. All in all I like the Kaleds being back as they are a sinister society forged in war and Davros looks cool but not as Davros.
3. I liked the skit as a skit but if it is implied to be canonical that seems not great.
4. Night of the doctor is better but it was meant to be inserted in the canon fully so maybe a bit unfair.
Hope these got my thoughts across. I like current Davros's voice because it is very Davros so overall positive feelings. Long comment because of lot of thoughts.
100% Agree
The thing is I think by pointing this out and making such a big thing about it he's done the harm he thought he was preventing
This kind of reminds me of when I was a kid, maybe 7, and we had to write a list of all our good things and bad things
And I put down in the good column that I had a black friend... And then told my black friend
Word of advice NEVER do this
It is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE thing to do
The look of upset on his face still haunts me to this day and I'm in my late 20s
Because he probably never thought of being friends with him was a good or bad thing.
He was just a person.
But by pointing it out I suddenly marginalised him into essentially being a charity case.
Someone that others wouldn't want to be friends with because of the colour of their skin
I can imagine there's a similar position for a disabled kid at home that's never even thought that being disabled might mean that people think they're evil
You know until they watched Doctor Who Unleashed
I know a guy that genuinely agrees with Russell even if people who are wheelchair-bound are saying that they don't care and they disagree with Rusell and kinda forcing them to think like him 💀
Couldn't agree more. I think everything Davies has said from the clothes regenerating to this davros issue have been bizzare and I don't think anyone would have had an issue with either things if they hadn't been changed. Just weird
Davros being in a wheelchair has nothing to do with his character being evil. It's a life support system he built for himself after a catastrophe and shows his genius and ingenuity, qualities which could have been used for good had he not been a child of endless war. I'm as progressive liberal snowflake as they come and have been watching Dr. Who since Tom Baker. I never once looked at Davros and thought his disability was part of what made him evil, and I very much doubt that any Dr. Who fan who uses a wheelchair was ever offended because Davros was also using a wheelchair. Only an able-bodied person would project their own gatekeeping insecurites onto a fictional character like RTD did with this. It makes me question the judgement he's bringing with him as showrunner and a bit nervous about what other iconic parts of the show he might also feel need to be changed.
yeah, not gonna lie I am a bit worried what else hes going to change now.... this seemed to come out of nowhere, I've never heard of people having a problem with davros before all this.
It just seems so drastic to me and makes no sense.... a simple solution would have been to create more heroic characters that use wheelchairs instead of discontinuing an iconic character design. I also don't see how it would work myself, never showing that version of him again would be really odd and would limit the stories you could tell because that version of him is such a huge part of the show and dalek history. I mean if a writer had a good story idea for a sequel to genesis of the daleks or any of the many stories that version of davros features in... how would they go about doing that without including davros, it would quite difficult to do.
I never saw him as a wheelchair user. As a kid I always saw him as HALF DALEK. Making him one of them in a way but giving him a face for the doctor to speak with him face to face. The whole point of Davros is to test the doctor's morals by giving him a monstrous immovable irredeemably evil opposite. It's classic theatrics. Davros is NOT disabled
Spot on. If classic Davros was an evil "wheelchair user" then so were ALL the Daleks. This retcon is absurd, and it doesn't inspire confidence in the show's direction moving forward.
I'll wait to see what comes but that Children in Need spot left me a little hollow tbh. The interaction with the birth of the Daleks by the Doctor just felt a little ....... Throw away. I mean ..... These are the DALEKS AND DAVROS, but it all got watered down, imo, with the Doctor naming their change, their rise and the replacing their weapon.
Wheelchair user never crossed my mind when I saw Davros, but I understand the sentiment. I don't think people's mind will directly go to "wheelchair=bad," but hey if this is only for the For the Children short, then I think we'll be fine, but if it bleeds into the actual Doctor Who show, that might be controversial as it a key factor in what makes up Davros' character.
It could be cool if over the course of what ever season new davros will show up in we see his slow transformation into the davros we all know
Cripple in a wheelchair here.
I take great offense at the suggestion that _I have no agency_ because I am a cripple in a wheelchair.
And yes, this insult is enough to toss RTD's return to the show into the wastebasket with Chibnall's run. To quote another fictional supervillian, "Without respect, I must reject."
Make a story centred around Davros creating a new body for himself, like the Big Finish story Terror Firma, and I'll be fine with the change.
I automatically thought, it’s Davros as he was, before the Thal bomb blast which blinded and disfigured him, thereby making him dependent on said life support machine 🤷♂️
Davros looks like the critic in ratatouille
LMAO HE DOES- PPPPFT
🤣🤣
I’ve a feeling unfortunately you’ll be seeing a *lot* of this kind of “reimagined” stuff in this new era of DW & frankly this is hardly a surprise, when everyone was getting all excited at RTD return, I just kept thinking _why?_ this is the guy that introduced in the first place, much of the stuff that ended up ruining it!. I bet when he saw the state it was in to date, he was thinking: I wish I could’ve gotten to change it _this much_ in my time as show runner.
& now he’s got creative control of a whole Dr Who ‘universe’
oh dear.
I love Russell but you are 100% correct! I have cerebral palsy and I am a wheelchair user and this was never an issue for me and it’s made me so mad changing the character that I almost want to come out against it but if there is someone in my situation, who, for whatever reason was offended by it then I would be alienating them so I feel like I can’t win, so I’m not sure if I’m going to say anything in a video or not. Anyway, very well done, my friend! I enjoyed the short overall!
I think the main reason I feel bad is because it puts people against each other for no reason. Obviously none of us as fans want to be mean or attack other fans, but making intentionally divisive comments will do that. I feel like the week before the first special drops is not the time to be controversial but thats just my opinion
All of this **gestures to the whole discourse** just makes me feel like an old, old man.
They do this with Richard III as well: every so often a well meaning production group decide he shouldn't be played as deformed because it's offensive... even though his deformity is part of his bloody backstory! He talks about being shunned by his fellow man and even dogs bark at him (he claims. Dogs bark at everyone of course; it may be Richard's paranoia that they are treating him differently!). He talks about his envy. He says "if I can not prove a lover then I will prove a villain!" This isn't recent; this has been going on since as long as I can remember.
Most historians today don't believe Richard III was deformed in any way & wasn't as murderous as he was made out to be. A case of history being written by the victorious, it suited the purposes of the winning Lancastrian faction to portray Richard in this manner.
@@andyburton2796
I don't care; it is a tragedy, not a documentary!
MacBeth (the real one) did not kill Duncan in his bed.
It did not serve the Lamcastrians to portray their political enemy in this manner because Shakespeare was writing over a hundred years later. It served the plot. And Napoleon wasn't all that short, but the archetype of a diminuitive man compensating for his insecurity by being ruthlessly ambitious is nevertheless a meaningful trope.
As someone whose part of a marginalized group I really don't like the concept that everyone in such groups can only be written as wholesome, heroic paragons or only good. Don't get me wrong I do agree showing people as only evil or playing into stereotypes is bad plus representation is a good thing but this feels like he created an issue where there wasn't one to begin with. The arguement he made feels really off for a lot of reasons too, same with the clothing change.
Also comes off feeling like people want to sanitise everything in a way.
I really don’t get why russel t davies did this to davros just completely changing everything about his character on something that no one was complaining about i really wanna hear what actual disabled people think about this and if they think its offensive I do still think that maybe he can make something good out of this new davros but thats just my opinion also GOATED VIDEO
Thank You!
My father was in a wheel chair, but made sure his carers got him in bed in plenty of time to see Davros when he knew he was going to be on Dr. Who, you should never change iconic characters, my father loved Davros.
What is it changing?
You make some great points as to why this change to Davros isn’t ok. In fact your comparison to Darth Vader hit it spot on. I really hope Davies sees this video or has these points given to him.
The Doctor regenerating clothes and seeing pre-accident Davros are interesting ideas and I was hyped to see them but the off-camera reasons why are very strange
Hahaha... 16 minutes video for a 5 minutes special... You are truly something. I love this channel!
Honestly I didn't even know this was meant to be canon.
This now has me questioning the timeline of Davros.
I thought the creation of the Daleks started after his accidents, because when he revealed the Dalek for the first time everyone was like WOW!!!! But now with this update, it kinda implies first Davros made the Dalek, had his accident, then turned himself into a Dalek. But the Daleks were made after him.
IKR! He's ruined everything
Well it all depends on which version of history you have followed.
I think Big Finish did the best job of explaining Davros's history.
Anyone who doesn't like this version should try to listen to the "I, Davros" series, and the Sixth Doctor story simply titled "Davros".
In those, the character was already a twisted racist genocidal scientist who was working towards the final mutation forms his race would likely become.
During this time he got injured in a missile attack which left him in the disfigured and disabled state that he was first shown as.
In short, he wasn't evil because he was a wheelchair user, and he wasn't a wheelchair user because he was evil. He just happened to end up being both, and the Mark 3 travel machines were obviously in part designed as an extension of the life support system that kept him alive.
Yeah so Davros was working on what would become the Daleks before his accident but was in the early stages. He had figured out that Kaleds were mutating and was doing experiments to find out their ultimate form and found that they would be weak and defenceless.
So he came up with a way to make them strong and to have a way to move. All of this was pre accident then he had the accident and designed his chair to survive and that gave him the base design for his travel machine so his chair was the mark 1. But he had already deduced that the Kaleds would need a travel machine pre accident.
So the Children in Need special does mess with the established cannon with able bodied Davros being around by the time the Mark 3 was around as it's predecessor was Davros' own chair which is not a wheelchair but a life support chair.
@@billthewhovian the "new" old Davros could have been explained with the get out of jail free card "Multiverse".
For RTD to say this IS THE ACTUAL Davros from now on shows contempt for both the original writer AND the audience.
Poor decision.
I'm sorry but character designs are a fundamental part of why people find characters interesting especially in a visual medium. Also, Davros appearance is fundamentally tied to his personality and the origins of the Daleks.
I can't seriously believe there are people sat here thinking "Nah, Genesis of the Daleks got it wrong! One of the highest rated and most iconic stories of the franchise was secretly ableist and we, the mighty peoples of 2023 must correct them".
Davros design is designed to highlight the horrors of war, the mental impact such horror can have and how easy it is for people to fall back on Fascism to overcome said horror. That is all told through his visual design. They are replacing his iconic and unqiue design with generic angry nazi in all black.
Exactly! This retcon in my mind invalidates the whole raison d'etre for the Daleks. It was because Davros suffered the critical injuries from the Thal bomb attack on the Kaled headquarters, coupled with his research into the effects of the 1000-year nuclear, chemical & bacteriological war on Skaro which led him to develop the "travel machine".
Incidentally when his assistant Kastavillan is running the different anagrams of Kaled past Davros he mentions "Klade". I understand that two of the Doctor Who novels mention a humanoid species in the far future called the Klade who apparently trace their linage back to the Daleks... 😉,
I don't get the impression RTD was condemning wheelchair/"travel machine" Davros, just adding a fresh take to the character. It's just as fundamental to change characters over time to keep them interesting. Imagine if all the doctors had Hartnell's outfits?? I for one am grateful for RTD's redesign of the Daleks to be more steampunk, for example. The Daleks are based on the Nazis and the costumes are taken directly from Genesis of the Dalek so it makes sense that that's what he'd wear. I do miss the third blue eye though :/, I hope we get something between the two designs moving forward.
RTD never said that he was retconning the original Davros design out of the canon, the version we see in the short is supposed to be a pre-accident Davros and doesn't contradict the future versions of the character having the design we're familiar with. Davis took the opportunity of making this short for children in need to address a problem that he, and many other people with disabilities, have with characters like Davros who fall into the disfigured/disabled villain trope. By showing Davros prior to receiving his injuries being as cartoonishly evil as he always has been, the sketch divorces the association between Davros' disfigurement/disabilities and his villainy which may have informed or helped reinforce the unconscious bias people develop towards those with disabilities. And the fact that the main issue people have with this version of Davros isn't the changes made to the character but rather the justification for the change shows that many people will uncritically condemn anything they see as "woke" even when those changes are positive in terms of story potential within the narrative and in terms of representation
Man, you’re the first new doctor who UA-camr in a long time who I don’t actually mind listening to. Great video man agree with it 100%
I honestly feel like this is a prelude to a young Davros storyline. Getting magicians apprentice vibes...
Whenever RTD explains himself, it always paints him in the worst possible light.
Except he can open his eyes, he just can't see from them, and the only reason he could in Witch's Familiar is because of the regen energy from 12, so technically no, it doesn't break the story. Otherwise though I completely agree
I never even thought of Davros as being disabled, I thought of him as the leader of the Daleks, an evil genius.
I hope this is not a permanent change for Davros because he looks like Gru in Despicable Me. I wonder if this was Disney's influence. I am an American who fell in love with Doctor Who in 2005 because it was different than the over produced stuff. Davros in the dalektanium is a staple of the show, and I like the round things.
Thats a good point, I did see someone else in the comments mention that it could be disneys influence too. It wouldn't surprise me if it did have something to do with them.
I was wondering that, too. This sort of change reaks of out of touch disney HR meddling, but I have zero experience with Davies' non-who stuff so I have no idea if this kind of writing decision is in-character for him or not.
I'd honeslty never heard about an accident prior to this skit! You're the first time I've seen anyone actually say what happened to him, I was assuming it was the Doctor’s fault (as the hand was in Genesis- I believe I've not actually seen it). So yes if thats what happened to him that makes more sense. I always did think he was half Dalek but put it more as John Lumic where he got old and ill so needed it not an accident. But I assumed he'd been working on them before. So I had no problem with it for this but if he's back again at any future point looking like that and its supposed to be after any other appearance (bar this and the boy) then its a retcon!
It is untrue that the Timeless Child did not change anything we saw on screen: Matt Smith's doctor grew old because he had *used up his regenerations* (as Time Lords only get 12 -- which also makes Matt Smith's Doctor the 13th incarnation, despite seeing that Capaldi was supposedly the 12th somehow).
this fits with TTC
@@dwfan91- I'll admit that I barely remember TTC, but I thought it indicated that the Doctor has infinite regenerations -- in which case, I don't see how it fits.
@@celticdragon6918 Nah, the doctor doesn't have infinite regens. A limit was put on him like all other time lords. If anything the ability to *give* regenerations like the Time Lords do in Time of the Doctor, fits in better under TTC explanation. For the record, I'm not saying that it's perfect or even that I like the idea- but that specific instance you mention isn't a plot hole
You are spot on regarding why Davros is in Mark 1 travel machine. He created the Daleks in his own image….
I am a massive STD fan and I am surprised that he unnecessarily fell into this CC trap.
I loved the short. It doesn't make as much sense as I would like, but it was good fun! I don't like the idea that Kaled Davros will be the main one in the future, that just wouldn't make sense. But I enjoyed seeing him in this form in the short, even if it complicates timelines. What are timelines for anyway, if not for messing about with?
You earned a subscriber today, sir.
Sadly RTD has allowed his desire to to what he perceives as a good thing to cloud his thinking. Absolutely, there is a long term trope of villains having a physical deformity (designed to echo their moral abnormality) - think back to Richard III. And I absolutely agree that that is something which we should be very careful about. And I totally get that this is a skit for Children in Need, which might literally have an audience of those in disabilities.
But as you said. The fix is.. DON'T F*CKING USE DAVROS in this scenario.
And the wider fix for the genuine problem? Create more positive role models. Give the Doctor a wheelchair bound companion (which I believe Big Finish have done). Don't create villains with this trope...
What you shouldn't do is go back and change things that honestly don't need changing. Add complexity to the Davros character. There is so much you can do. Heck you could do something timey-wimey and save Davros from his accident and see how that might change the outcome.
Terry Nation: writer and creator of such classic inventions as
The Daleks
Davros
Blake's 7
as well as lots of episodes of other great shows in the 1960/70s.
RTD: creator of great characters like..... Erm, give me a minute I'm sure I'll think of one 😏
But fans already in wheelchairs tend to fall into Davros cosplay. Now what are they gonna do?
I agree with you but I don’t think he’s planning on using Davros again any time soon. And I'm doubtful his character design will remain like this from now on
I liked the comment about ascribing moral virtue to people with disabilities. They are just like anyone else, some are good people, and some are dicks
I think I’ve missed it but what was the reason for the clothes change?
Russell T Davies answer to critics is "Tough " says all you need to know about his arrogance ,
No one ever looked at Davros and thought he's an evil person in a wheelchair ....what about the Master before he changed into Nissa's father ....and if we follow Russell T Davie's logic then Darth Vader better watch out , he's an amputee !
Oh no we had to bring back the old davros design but refused to use a wheelchair because we didn’t want to offend wheelchairs, so now davros has a chain around his stomach and is dragged around by a dalek.
I hate this change for a simple reason - Davros designed the Daleks BASED ON HIS DISABILITIES! His mechanical eye became the Dalek eyestalk, his damaged and useless hand became the Dalek plunger arm, his 'wheelchair' became the Dalek's mode of transport...
He was the Dalek's 'God' and he made them in his own image. This takes all of that away...
This is a very multi perspective discussion. I can see on one hand we have people with disabilities stating that they had never felt offended or misrepresented by Davros being in his life support chair. On the other we have people with disabilities applauding the change and Russell showing that consideration for how we perceive villains and particular tropes.
I think that there’s an exciting opportunity arising with storytelling here and the WHOniverse. This could just be one step in Russell showing how the show can expand through something like the multiverse where a variant of a character will exist, in this case the Davros who wasn’t heavily scarred from the war and how simple actions from the Doctor can cause timelines to change and jump. The seventh doctor alluded to multiple timelines existing, wherein in one he grew old and didn’t regenerate. This is how Russell is opening up opportunities for actors past to return even away from the show’s canon.
I can see how now having a fully humanoid Davros can limit how he is presented on the show too. One of the benefits of the iconic look previously is that Davros could be brought back over the years played by different actors but conveying the character with his iconic appearance, which was the chair, the mask and the eye. As a humanoid character, if the show was to last another sixty years, the part would inevitably need to be recast, which would need a bit more suspension of disbelief from an audience seeing as Davros isn’t a character who regenerates. This isn’t impossible, but having a character with iconic design elements does make it easier.
It must have been lovely for Julian Bleach not to need to sit in makeup for hours for what would have been over a minute of screen time. Here he’s really getting to use his voice and face, which is part of the reason that he was cast in the first place.
As we know it was never purely about Davros being disabled. By his appearance in Remembrance of the Daleks he became their emperor and was a head in a Dalek machine. He had very much become his own creations and abandoned the last vestiges of his humanity (Kaledity?) this is to show what happens when we become like machines. Davros had a massive god complex and created the Daleks in his image. When Russell brought Davros back in 2008 he reverted Davros to look more like he did in Genesis of the Daleks rather than expand from the canon of the 80’s. By that point Davros could have been an AI projecting himself from a Dalek casing having become completely mutated.
However of course things do change and do progress on screen and we are now riding a wave of change. This is akin to how characters might sometimes have been black faced or yellow faced like in The Talons of Wen Chiang. We know that such things would not and cannot be done now. How disabled people are conveyed on screen is another example of how things can change, and the resistance that we are seeing is the byproduct of perhaps the guilt many have felt ever thinking that that may have been acceptable at one time, or may be seeing the scene when the Doctor took Davros’ chair and left him on the floor through a different lens now. That can be very uncomfortable to consider.
At the same time is there still a way to create a new iconic look for Davros? Can he still be mutated from the war or scarred in some way to convey how nasty it is and still be able to walk? As a leading Kaled scientist could he ride around in a hover podium that looks somewhat like a Dalek bottom half to show it’s his design but not have the life support element. It would be akin to the Green Goblin’s glider which would allow Davros to fly over his creations as he watches them exterminate.
Excellent video.
Brill video, subscribed to your channel. Best part is describing the new series as fan fiction, totally agree. I only watched Queer as Folk due to the character who loved the show. Took a sketch from that and copied it with Martha Jones first telephone call to her family.
I did think Moffat did well 8nventing the weeping angels but have yet to see something more interesting from RTD, I was mortified to hear of his return.
sometimes commenting on your videos is hard for me because it's similar to when you have to reply to a classmate's response in an online assignment. where all you can think of saying "i agree" since they hit all the marks 😭
BUT i will say. with this redesign, davros now looks like the critic from ratatouille. you ate with that line about how davros being blind was both literal as it was metaphorical and how the symbolism is kinda thrown out the window with this redesign. physical attributes have always been utilized in literature and all media as a means of symbolism- usually to signify a pivotal shift in a character. not always bad, of course, but one that defines them from then on. its a visual distinction that often boosts the story and gives the audience insight of why the character makes certain choices. not justification, but perception. and i think u hit the nail right on the head when you brought up how critical davros' appearance is to his character.
of course, i cant speak for anyone else who may believe his being half dalek seemed ableist, because its not my place to. i will just uphold my opinion on how vital visual symbolism can be with storytelling.
W comment
I think that whilst this change may be a controversial one considering how it has been engrained in his backstory by this point, Russell is not wrong in pointing out there is a very real trope of crippled=evil in media that should be rectified. I think that if the reaction to this change is a negative one then they can just brush it off as a non-canon CiN sketch, which is a smart choice. Ultimately, this reaction has been pretty similar to any time the doctor who villains have been redesigned, like the Daleks, the Cybermen or any of the others. In time, the change will become normalised, or it may be completely scrapped. I do not think it is something that we should be worrying about.
Well but in real life some people do react negatively because they can't process the trauma of becoming disabled. Is not good to show a one sided perspective. Not all disabled people are inspiring and not all disabled people are good or evil. Besides, Davros didn't become evil because of his accident. He survived a random missile blast. Before his accident he was planning the same things. The disability just made him bitter, angrier and more determined. Which also happens in real life. We like to believe people with disabilities are cheerful and inspiring but that's also not true.
Using a Slitheen as a villain would offend children with problems involving flatulence.
I would say I am super progressive and this is very stupid and I agree its made me nervous going forward for what other things davies might change flippantly going forward, I'm a bit worried about him becoming the doctor who tyrant
I don’t know if anyone remembers that the doctor walking off with a young Davros leading to him most likely change his path o ly to go the same way.
“Strange, wrong, and don’t align with reality”. Nailed it.
Great video!
with how much you are posting you are gonna get burnt out. remember to take a break once in a while
you're right, but there's just so much content coming out right now!
hes just become a grand moff tarkin clone
People are so focused on the history of this show and complaining leaving no room to think about the FUTURE. We already seen Davros as a child so why would seeing him as an adult man be any different.
The Doctor playing a role in their creation was inevitable. Playing with time always makes those events happen which we have seen time and time again in the show.
In 'Genesis of the Daleks', Davros was played by the late Michael Wisher, who was the original and best. Elisabeth Sladen said of him that, during rehearsals, he wore a paper bag over his head because he knew that in the studio recordings, John Friedlander's mask would allow him no facial movement or expression. As a result, he had to create the character using only his voice, and he gave a towering performance. Terry Nation should have definitively killed off Davros at the end of the story because, rather like the Master, he ended up as an overused character and panto villain, and none of the actors who followed was as good.
I might not know about the story much, but does he look like that because The Doctor saved him from those weird hands and from the bomb in the episode The Witch's familiar?
I liked the refreshing take of Davros pre-Genesis
Not taking an issue with the opinion ofc but may I ask what's refreshing about it?
@@dwfan91- I like the concept of having a different take on an old character in the same vain as the silurians in Moffats era with their redesign
@@samuelhigman3778 Great point!
Why tf is this guy so wise wtf. This guy actually spits facts
To be honest, if they retconn the Timeless Children and it changes Davros to this, I’d be okay with it. It would at least show cause and effect and could haunt the Doctor in terms of decisions that get made and their ripple effects.