That Finale Was The DEATH KNELL For New Fans Getting Into DOCTOR WHO - Reaction to EMPIRE OF DEATH
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- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
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To clarify something, because I think I may not have been clear enough here;
I don't think this is the end of the death of 'Doctor Who'. I specifically said it's the death knell for getting NEW FANS into the show. Russell and the BBC at large have spent the best part of a year signalling to audiences that this is a fresh start and you didn't need to know anything about the past 60 years of the show and I think it's safe to say that making the finale episode a sequel to a 49 year old story that 90% of your viewers on Disney+ can't even legally watch goes against that in a very significant way.
How about you fix your damn thumbnail at the very least so you don't attract the worst kind of people? You should know better than this. YOU are better than this.
@@MaxHP1 there are 3 versions of the thumbnail. UA-cam's algorithm showed you the one it deemed most likely to get you to watch.
@@MaxHP1as someone who hasn't seen any of the far right videos, is it just because the 15th doctor is being depicted screaming on the thumbnail? I legit don't know what these youtubers use to attract the transphobes/racists
@@MrTARDIS And UA-cam's algorithm is designed to attract negativity and promote inflammatory content, which tends to bring the same type of people I mentioned previously. But again, you know this.
Where did the other thumbnail come from? The aether?
For me, it's not that the uninitiated audience will need the context of a 50 year old story BECAUSE it is explained in the episode. It's like it's saying "If you want, you can go back and see these stories because this show you are getting into HAS a history. But it's also not entirely necessary to understand this story. We can go forward with that knowledge." Right now, all we can hope for is the idea that the show won't go on to be entirely reliant on older Who material.
It was explained in the episode, sure, but it's not a good payoff without already being invested in the original story. A new viewer gets to the end and goes... "how was I meant to know any of this?"
It's like getting to the end of Series 1 having never seen a Dalek before. It's why the episode "Dalek" exists - to ensure the Daleks are appropriately introduced so the ending has weight.
Here? Sutekh isn't explained to new viewers until the second half of the two part finale, and the explanation is just "I've faced him before."
@@jeffcarey3045 I think it's better comparable to something like the Zygons or the Ice Warriors or even the Sontarans, Classic Who monsters who, like Sutekh, have barely appeared again in NuWho. IIRC both Cold War and Day of the Doctor mentioned how the Doctor had fought these species before. While the threat itself of Sutekh is much greater than any of these species, there was still the chance that newer audiences would be confused by the Doctor meeting these aliens and recognizing them from his Classic run. It's just something that goes with the territory of having a modern show with the same continuity as an older one.
As for it being a good payoff, Sutekh in Empire of Death is enough of a different kind of villain than in Pyramids of Mars that it doesn't really matter to me. In either story, they serve completely different plot functions, and have different appearances to boot. These Sutekhs are alike in their motifs, voice, and general aesthetic, but I felt that Pyramids of Mars was only useful in establishing the general idea of Sutekh which went on to be told in Empire of Death anyways. He's a God of Death, he faced the Doctor before, and he appropriates a lot of ancient Egyptian imagery. There's really not much more to him than that which matters in both stories.
@@jeffcarey3045 Thats all they need to know though.
@@jeffcarey3045and Sutekh wasn’t even presented like a, “whoa, this is really a great evil character” kinda way. The CGI dog did nothing that would make me think- new or old viewer- “omg, this is great”.
@@cinemagoose I already made a comparison to nuwho using classic monsters. They were well introduced and established.
You get to the end of Legend of Ruby Sunday and the big reveal happens. It's Sutekh, a name that's never been heard before, presented like you should know what it is and be scared.
It's an answer that doesn't tie anything meaningful together. It's just slapped on top.
You're forgetting this season was called "Season 1" because it was meant as a jumping on point for new fans the way Series 1 was. RTD explicitly promised no returning villains.
Nothing sets Sutekh up as a big bad. He's just the bad guy in a two parter. He should have been introduced midseason, perhaps with an adventure where the Doctor learns Sutekh has escaped the time corridor he was in, but is nowhere to be found. The reveal that he's been right there all along would have been great then.
That's the setup that new viewers didn't get. Old viewers knew what Sutekh was and that he was sent down a time corridor using the TARDIS. Him latching onto the TARDIS is a payoff for viewers of Pyramids of Mars only.
New viewers needed an episode like the one I described to make the reveal meaningful, instead of "Who the fuck is that? Oh, clearly nothing important, it's a dog that calls itself the god of death and got taken for walkies in a single episode. How silly."
Good television isn't explaining things in voice overs. It's showing it. Period.
Series 1 didn't use a voiceover and some lines of dialogue to say he's met Daleks before. They show it by showing how terrified the Doctor is of it, and how angry he is with it over the Time War. LONG before the finale.
I think bringing back Sutekh was the least of this episode's problems. 😆
Did people forget the scene in Devil's Chord where they have a whole conversation about Susan?
My only criticism of the timeless children is the re-destruction of Gallifrey.
That's the only thing I genuinely want retconnned. Makes the hopeful ending of Day of the Doctor meaningless.
@@Comicbroe405 exactly!
@@Comicbroe405 Agreed.
I also think it's not interesting enough. Fans forget very easily that the Doctor's unique when the content is interesting enough to make it so. The Time War made him the single survivor and yet much of the 'The Doctor's just a bloke' crowd probably never considered how unique it made him, cause it's GOOD SHIT.
The Doctor being the Timeless Child could be handwaved away as a red haring planted by the timelords, but their destruction (again) is so much harder to recover from.
This is the reason why Doctor Who didn't need another reboot as they're still calling back to the previous series so much that newer audiences will be confused. It never made much sense to me that this was going to be "season 1" instead of "series 14"
The only reason seems to be production/company changes. It's very odd because Space Babies does the soft reboot tour, it's discussed as if new but as we all now know, it really is just Series 14.
Which is fine. Just call it that.
I think it was literally just a Disney stipulation. It's not a reboot in any conceivable sense of the word, they just insisted it be called Season 1 for some reason.
RTD hasn't changed at all. Nostalgia goggles have blinded people, but his finales have always been underwhelming (except Bad Wolf)
I agree strongly.
Bad Wolf also falls apart when you think about it. If you just needed one person to look in the heart of the tardis to destroy all daleks, why didn't the time lords do this? Especially when they're known for their hubris, especially Rassilon who we know was alive at the time. RTD has never stood up to scrutiny.
@@strbourne I agree the resolution is iffy but it’s forgivable in such a strong story
@@strbourne I just lost what I wrote (don't you hate it when that happens?) Deep within I actually do agree with you about Bad Wolf but because it was the new series first finale I was able to give it more leeway. It was nonsenical but everything RTD writes ends up so complicated that only silly answers can be given. Also I was was not back then to knw such endings were RTD topes that he would endlessly employ. I still love Bad Wolf because it was emotionally engaging and exciting and I think the Tardis having such power was cool. The Rose absorbing the energy and al that is silly but at least it didn't drastcially change the lore of classic DW. But yep, you're right narratively it does fall apart but I loved it.
@@ryanhindley174 Why couldn't I have said that has articulately and briefly as you did? I think we are definitely on the same page. It does have a rather silly ending but my goodness what an episode packed with emotional stakes and a huge heart. It was a strong story, resolution aside, but because that was followed up with one of the most beautiful regeneration scenes ever I didn't care how the daleks were wiped out.
One thing I have been told by people in their twenties is that the past is not as it was for my generation. It doesn't matter that a show is 40+ years ago. For those who get into the show, The Pyramids of Mars is available in various places in the internet Universe. While working in a comic shop, I met a young boy whose mother told me was really into The Avengers NOT the Marvel Avengers but the 1960's Avengers.
Again, I was chatting to a Primary School teacher who has told me his kids are loving Doctor Who because it is funny, colourful and exciting. So , with all due respect, it depends who you ask. And researching stories is itself a very modern way of engaging with media products. So, I'm sure what you say is true but there are (God forgive me) "alternative facts" , or alternative experiences.
I think RTD just loves Sutekh. I think the show's nod to the past also has another motivation, attracting people to the back catalogue - the Whoniverse which seems to be integrating all Doctor Who products across all its history , from books to comics, to audio adventures.
I see absolutely no difference between this and any other return of old villains from before, and see no reason why this is a problem now.
I think it’s because empire is a sequel to pyramids while Dalek isn’t a sequel to anything it’s a new introduction based on the new lore for the show
@@spacepenguins8939 Kinda maybe? Dalek is obviously a superior episode, but otherwise, Master is a time lord. Besides Doctor not being alone in the universe and him using time travel to become a prime minister, I was not sure as to why he was so scary at first.
I think what did hurt Sutekh was lack of big cool moment. Dalek’s rampage across the Vaults and Yana’s turn are some of the best reveals in show’s history. Sutekh Thanosing people with a touch from his heralds isn’t as cool an effect.
I agree. This is a fine return.
I don’t know. I just feel like the Master’s appearance was sold better than Sutekh. I mean, Sutekh’s a deep cut even within the fandom. And then, The Sound of Drums/Last of the Time-Lords didn’t spend a chunk of the running time constantly referring back to, let’s say Survival. In Utopia, there’s a proper build up towards Yana being a Time-Lord and then we at least a great performance in the ending from Derek Jacobi. Not to hate on Susan Twist or Gabriel Woolf, they’re both excellent, but the entire scene is basically only sold on “It was Sutekh all along. Rather than Susan.” Two characters who are utterly unrelated. The whole thing about Susan? No relevancy to this story, complete dead end. Not that I thought Susan was ever going to come back, but it just seems weird to bring her up.
The audience. That’s the difference. When the Daleks returned, the audience wasn’t confused. When the Cybermen returned, they set them up as brand new villains and had the Doctor explain to Rose that they are new versions of old enemies of his, no confusion. Even as someone who watched Pyramids of Mars THIS YEAR for the first time before the new season began, I was confused about the return of Sutekh. It’s all about the way it was presented to us as some big reveal when in reality it should’ve been treated as a new threat and while also being a fun treat for longterm fans.
I think the fundamental issue, having enjoyed this story and season overall, is that RTD has not changed his approach to Who at all. One companion from London who is ordinary but becomes extraordinary with a single mother, the arc revolves around repeated motifs that occur during otherwise standalone episodes, the finale is big and loud, the opener is silly, we need to have a Christmas special that requires seasonal resets, every season must have a different TARDIS team, we have a Classic Who companion back, the Doctor makes grandiose speeches whilst doing god-like tricks... although the broad strokes have changed, RTD is writing the show in the exact same way. And that's not good, especially when Moffat and Chibnall played about so much with the style and storytelling. It HAS to change. Otherwise the next few years are going to be entirely predictable except for when guest writers are allowed to actually contribute. Just try a Big Bad style arc, or experiment with a larger TARDIS team, or move the home base from London, or have a companion with a father figure, or ANYTHING that makes RT2D not a more fantastical RTD1, please.
Exactly! I think bringing back the more episodic style of ClassicWho is a think that should be done or maybe just increasing the ep count.
Precisely - as much as I have my problems with Chibnall's run, he changed up the formula significantly by having the audience 'home' setting be away from London, regularly having three people as companions and experimented with a single long story. I like the season overall but Russel needs to shake it up a bit from his last run.
@@wilfordbrimleyful Exactly. Heck, since the show is now even intentionally seeking out an international audience, why not have a non-British companion if it has to be a present-day one?
@HishamA.N_Comicbroe I think the opposite. With such a low episode count, Doctor Who should embrace a more serialized season like Series 6 or 13.
i don’t think he lost the sauce, i just think he dropped the ball with the finale like he always does
I don't think he's lost the sauce, I think he's just so self congratulatory at this point that he couldn't be bothered to add any, we'll get what we get and be grateful for the opportunity... I swear he said something to that effect in an actual interview somewhere 😢
All of rtd’s finales in his first era were incredible. They were satisfying culminations of the character arcs that had been wonderfully built up throughout the series. But in series 14, there wasn’t enough effort into building up these characters, so I didn’t care about what happened to them. Hell, most of The Legend of Ruby Sunday was focused on talking about Susan, a character who most casual fans don’t have any connection to. Plus, tbh Sutekh just isn’t nearly as good of a villain as the Daleks, Cybermen, or Master.
The sauce wasn't lost. It was expired.
@@Creek932 His first eras finales were equally unsatisfying, all deus ex saves to beat the big bad
@@generalpork I love all of rtd’s deus ex machinas and I don’t know why so many fans don’t. I think they’re all epic and satisfying. The way I see it, the Doctor is basically a space wizard, and I love seeing that power reflected in how he conquers his enemies. My issue with Empire of Death is that the character work just isn’t very strong. I just don’t particularly care about Ruby or any of the UNIT crew, so I’m not very invested in what happens to them. But in rtd’s first era I loved all the characters and was extremely invested in them and their fates.
Even the twist involving Ruby's mother doesn't do it for me. She's just a normal human being, but at the same time she has a raggedy cloak on standby (that probably cost a lot to make, let alone the straw cradle for baby Ruby), she's able to scare the literal Egyptian god of death, she's able to evade CCTV cameras to a point of being able to screw with the recordings (and even the memories of alien beings), she's able to wipe her tracks so hard as to evade Davina McCall and her production crew AFTER THE FACT, and she apparently prefers pointing menacingly at street signs to name her children.
I feel like UK citizens should be reporting to the ASA over such a blatantly misleading twist -- it's so ill-fitting given the context, and such a clear miscarriage, the episode may as well be called "Loss" and it would make as much sense.
If you want to throw any of that in your review, Will, just give credit where it's due and you'll have my full permission.
Yeah, the twist was, "Screw you, there is no twist. You spent 8 or so hours of your life investing in this narrative and it goes nowhere!". It's like Russell is punishing the fans (the dwindling number of fans), for actually caring about the story. As someone who's checked out of DW now, I'm only here for the laughs, and they keep coming.
I'm sure all the hopelessly deluded will just accept it while insisting that this pitiful series was the best ever made of the programme
You can't just write a character acting in a bizarre way for no reason other than to encourage fans to follow an imaginary trail
A character has to operate within the realms of the world they exist in
It isn't like the days of Shakespeare when the actors would whisper the plot to the audience to help them understand
Any writer should know this
Unless you're Russell, who just writes any old garbage and expects all the glory
The "Season 1" rebrand continues to be utterly baffling to me. It HAS to be something enforced by Disney, right? If this was Russel's idea, I don't get why he's writing thing this way.
Season 1 for the sake of Disney Plus audiences - no-one is going to start watching a new show on Disney from 'Series 14'; side-note, 'Series' is a UKism anyway. UK billings still refer to the show as Series 14 (Radio Times, etc.). We just see both online because we interact with fans internationally. It's really for the sake of marketing internationally and shouldn't affect anyone's enjoyment of the show.
@@user-kz5ez7nd7n Wasn't Russell claiming the rebrand was domestic as well, not just overseas?
One does not simply bring up Susan Foreman as just a minor red herring. I’m sorry, but as someone who really digs that original TARDIS quartet, it’s really sad that she was just kind of brought up only for nothing at all to be done with her and for the reveal to be an unrelated character. She’s not a well known enough character that you can just do this with her. The best thing for Susan was just not to bring her up unless you were going to have a return to the character.
Overall, I don’t actually think it was that bad (and I will enjoy the memes) but it certainly felt botched. Funnily enough, I watched this on the same day I rewatched The Parting of the Ways and that is so superior, it’s crazy.
Susan Foreman should have been the Chekhov's Gun of this story. Mentioned so many times. I was expecting a finalish scene where she turned up at UNIT towers asking if the Doctor was there.
Susan just shouldn’t have been mentioned at all. This era should have been a total fresh start for new viewers. Why would RTD focus so heavily on teasing a character from the 60s? Especially if he wasn’t even going to actually have her show up.
@@GrahamPointer1972 i reckon part of next season if not the finale will beinvolving her surely at this point they cant just ignore it
The JNT era was a time when casual viewers were expected to know the minuate of the show's history. "Omega has taken control of the Matrix" (Who? What? So?) or stand around in the TARDIS discussing the plot of a Cyberman adventure from about 15 years previously. RTD got it right first time round with the Daleks - a simple pen-portrait without all the stuff about the different factions, only a slight reference to Davros etc.
Weird how the “god of traps” Trickster had no effect in Sutekh’s trap whatsoever. I’d figure he would be behind Ruby’s mum at least.
Especially considering how Ruby’s singing in Devil’s Chord was near perfectly similar to the box’s theme in the Trickster’s first episode. Plus Clyde was fiddling with the box in the memory tardis.
The references to Trickster led to fans like me to be 100% convinced he’s appearing in the finale. Sutekh had no references at all, yet he was the villain. Yes, The Devil’s Chord featured a destroyed earth which is a reference to Pyramids of Mars. But in the Trickster episode “Temptation of Sarah Jane Smith”, a destroyed London was shown.
You couldn’t blame anyone for thinking it was the Trickster because of those references. Especially with how fans theorised that Russel was reusing the Sky/Trickster plot line from SJA from Ruby. Both dropped off on a doorstep after birth, emphasis on the mother and not the father, magical things happening with both of them, becoming companions.
There was so much evidence for Trickster and it was immediately disproven because of one second of sand in a trailer and the dumb “Susan Tech = SuTech” theory.
(Idk if you could tell, but I really like the Trickster)
Funny enough before the finale aired I didn’t know who Sutekh was, but the episode “Pyramid of Mars” was in the fourth Doctor Era. Which where I am classic Doctor who was on tubi and I was binging each era, luckily I was at the fourth Doctor era. So I was able to get the context to who Sutekh was.
It's interesting to note that The Devil's Chord got people talking about The Pyramids of Mars because of the similar scene of the Doctor showing a companion the screwed up future. Was that a deliberate ploy?
I had the same critique. I enjoyed the finale, because I had all the required lore knowledge. My co-workers who didn’t were quite confused and need a primer from me.
Btw, for those in the US looking for Classic Who, most of it is currently available for free on Tubi.
I enjoyed how seriously and intensely you said the word "bubble".
Ruby’s mystery and her mother were the only parts of the episode that majorly disappointed me, which absolutely knocks the wind out of the momentum for the last 10-15 minutes. It’s a massive hole that I’m personally willing to overlook on (rare) rewatch. Empire of Death was a let down but I’m never going to understand why we’re acting like it’s the worst ever. I think it just didn’t deliver after 7-8 really good episodes.
I introduced my girlfriend to Doctor Who this season and she still enjoyed Empire of Death. The finale was her least favorite but she was so invested with the previous 6 weeks and she’s asking when it comes on next. Empire of Death isn’t going to kill the show.
I do want RTD to write significantly less in the coming years. Him writing 10 out of the past 12 episodes released in an 8 month span is simply too much. I hope Ncuti stays for 4 or 5 seasons and Russel leaves with him because I don’t think RTD has that much new to say. I’m enjoying this era a lot so far after falling out of love around Series 12-13 but I have reason to look forward perhaps even more to the next one. Oh and I don’t think 8 episodes is enough to build up to a satisfying finale or a convincing Doctor-companion relationship.
Thing with the Daleks and Cybermen is that they were given all new backstories or origins, even if it was to the chagrin of old fogies such as myself. If you had no idea who Davros or Emperor Daleks or Supreme Daleks were, the Daleks were threatening because they were set up as the destroyers of the Time Lords and the Doctor hated them. The Cybermen were given an all new origin in Series 2 so that people understood what they were all about. Even the Master has that added oomph by being another Timelord in a world where they all died! With Sutekh, he hasn't got that. No recontextualization, no reworking into the Time War or anything, Russel was banking on the dialogue to do that but it relies too heavily on an era that, and lets face it, an awful lot of fans are ignorant of.
My wife barely knows any classic Who, and ended up going to bed early about half an hour in to the Pyramids Tales of the TARDIS, so doesn't know who Sutekh is but enjoyed Empire, and the whole season (Devil's Chord was her favourite, mostly for Maestro's costumes TBF).
I loved the season overall too.
Yeah. I’ve been thinking it since Devil’s Chord, but EoD confirms my thoughts: even Series 11 was more beginner friendly.
Series 11, while not perfect, is under appreciated for the fact it focused on new fans.
Yeah, series 11 had issues, but “you need to already know a lot about Doctor Who” was not one of them.
How strange that Series 11 was a better jumping on point for new fans than, Series 1 on Disney plus.
@@bearerofbadnews1375Well it was the beginning of a whole new era with a new season which helped. Meanwhile this era literally begins with the 60th anniversary which does not do it any favours.
Honestly yeah. The storytelling and characters in Series 11 are awful but at least it’s accessible to new viewers.
I keep seeing more and more of these inconsistencies and it just makes me cry more and more 😭
A once fun and entertaining programme reduced to this mangled mess
@@SamuelBlack84 i think it’s fun. It’s just mostly the finale that has all the inconsistencies 😭
Doctor who has a bad case of dropping acid into the cooking pot then setting the house on fire by accident when doing finales
@@AiRsTrIkExXzZ I'm talking about the programme as a whole
This is why Big Finish is the superior when you have villains like the Eleven, the Eminence and the Ravenous
Not big slugs or a monster made of snot
I don't think you are aware of the way new fans enjoy this show. The ones I've seen talk about the finale like it more than I do, because the lack of context of an old serial makes the universe and lore feel bigger and the stakes are heightened. Doctor Who's long history is a strength and a reason people get on board, not a hinderance. Regardless, you don't need the context of Pyramids of Mars to understand the finale anyway and pretending that you do is disingenuous at worst, ignorant at best.
This is to say, I didn't even like this finale. I think most RTD finales suck. But unlike you, I've taken time to watch people who only started with Ncuti talk about their opinions on this season.
@@SunniestAutumn"but unlike you", so you didn't even watch the video because I talk at length about the responses from people who started watching this season...
I'd love to know your thought on how you think they should continue Ncuti's era going forward.
The second series is already written and shot. Hopefully, it’ll have more of a defined identity, because if it’s more of the same I don’t see the series continuing… which would be heartbreaking.
Actually have him be in the episodes would be a start lol
If they’re gonna continue with the “film two seasons back to back” format, then I hope they treat seasons 3 and 4 as one big season split into two, rather than two small seasons. 8 episodes is simply not enough time for the kind of ambitious story arcs that Russel likes to write.
My thought would be, cancel it.
You mean…a death nail…because it wants new fans to look into the history of the show?
Characters watching a past story, isn't that breaking the fourth wall?
Zoe watched the opening of "Evil of the Daleks" on the TARDIS scanner
they use shots from episodes quite often, think 50th anniversary, “security camera” footage that shows multiple moving shots and all that. I mean it is a 4th wall break but not on purpose
I am an American fan of the show, one who has gone back and seen everything from the franchise, and who started watching the show when a friend introduced me around the time Series 6B began, and after I had seen Miracle Day promos the Summer of 2011. As such, I can say conclusively that much like the ‘96 movie, and Miracle Day, the problem with this series, which supposedly was meant to be a fresh start for a new audience (even though I’ve been watching on BBC America this whole time), is that they try to base their plot on so much lore and continuity that you have continuity lockout for the unfamiliar fans who are supposed the target audience. Like Miracle Day making Jack’s new mortality a plot point, when those viewers coming fresh to the show wouldn’t know he’s supposed to be immortal, something that isn’t talked about until episode 7. Basically even the anniversary specials was more of return to the Davies status quo, than an actual celebration of the shows history. When they lead up to the Sutekh reveal, I thought they were talking about the Fenric (which frankly makes better sense); and the whole “Ruby’s mom becomes important because of the emotional weight she’s given by her daughter”, is a direct copy of Bill’s arc in The Lie of The Land. Lastly, it’s crazy that Sutekh waits through the Time War, Jack holding onto the Tardis, it’s becoming a paradox machine, it blowing up and being flown into the pandorica, it becoming a sentient person, the Doctor running through it while it falls apart, et cetera, to reveal that (much like Sam Reich) he’s “been there the whole time”. Like the Timeless Child, it’s a reveal that is ludicrous in the context of the show’s continuity, and much like Buffy and Sherlock, it presents a convention you see in these shows that I find silly, where you have multiple villains working in the same area, with big villainous plans, basically waiting for their turn to hurt the hero. Think the ancient one, and the mayor in Buffy, or Eurus waiting until Sherlock came back to world, and dealt with Magnusson, to mess with his life.
My mom had never watched classic who. She watched the finale, and got it just fine. It was one of her favorite episodes of the season.
I'd have to disagree that the problem is being reliant on fanservice. At least in my eyes, it's not the worst incorporation of a returning villain. Maybe my opinion is less valid, as I did watch Pyramids of Mars the day before, so I had full context going in. Plus I'm not new to the show at all. But I don't think it's necessary homework for new viewers. Empire of Death seems to me like it works without that context.
The problem is that it just wasn't a good episode. If the execution had been better, I don't think there would be an issue.
Was at the screening in Norwich, definitely didn't have the same bad vibes. Vibes were actually really good, there was cheering clapping laughing and all sorts. I see the point about doing a sequel to an old story. That and the sign post which was just so contrived.
7:20 Technically, all of these questions have answers. They just aren't satisfying ones.
1) It was snowing because Christmas Eve 2004 is a raw and open moment in time that can be summoned through memories of it. That means that theoretically the priests in the church could also make it snow by remembering taking in Ruby.
2) Sutekh cared about Ruby's mom because the Doctor, Ruby and the rest of unit had given her power through believing she's important. I guess it's a weaker version of the archangle network solution in Last of the Time Lords where everyone believing in the doctor made him powerful.
3) Mrs Flood hasn't been answered yet. (She feels like more than 1% of the mysteries though, given that Russell said 99% of them would be solved)
4) The sign wasn't there because they couldn't see it on the footage. The time window was filling in the scene based on the things it could calculate were there. It could tell there was a lamp but not a sign on it.
When Kate Steward turned to dust i thought cool thats ballsey but when EVERYONE turned to dust i thought, they will all be brought back. If you destroy the world there is no tension because we kniw it wont stay dead. You kill a side character and there is
Also what happned to Shirley? Were is she? Are we just to write her out of the shows history like Dodo or the Master being Nyssa's father? Is the actress on maternity leave or something?
Dont get me wrong unti has too many characters in this. Like did Rose Nobel get any lines? I think Ferb has a higher line to minute ratio.
And can Kate Stewart ever NOT do the whole "Remmber when you and dad fought the Axons? Member the Green Death Episode 3?". Shes been around 10 years and still does the same thing each time.
Surely the key issue is just the dishonesty? Davies has written finales that make no sense before. Almost always does, in fact and some of those end up as massive hits regardless. What he hasn't done before is all the puzzle box stuff - then left the puzzle box literally empty. The series One stuff is Disney marketing maybe? The new thing otherwise never made sense anyway. Gatwa appeared in an episode featuring a Hartnell villian and alongside a series 4 Doctor and companion. It has the same showrunner, the same producers, same composer.
The new-viewer experience issues comes from the 60th anniversary specials, since they set up a bunch of stuff for season 1. We could've done with at least a School Reunion-type episode with UNIT and Mel to properly introduce them (especially Mel, since her inclusion in The Giggle was pretty random). The actual issue is the mystery sucked, which makes people think they're missing something.
Susan Triad, Triad Technology, and Ruby seeing the video of her being left at the church needed to happen way earlier in the season. Preferably, Ruby should have seen the video and started obsessing about it BEFORE she exhibited snow powers, and then when she starts believing the snow is an important.
RUBY: The snow is so thick and heavy, isn't that weird? Britain ain't exactly known for its wild snowstorms. I think it's a clue.
THE DOCTOR: What, you think your mother's some kind of yuki-onna? That's a snow woman, old Japanese myth, not a pretty tale.
RUBY: Maybe? I don't know. I'm just thinking, why would she leave me there in the middle of a snowstorm?
THE DOCTOR: She could just be a normal woman with no other choice.
RUBY: No, it's important. The snow's related somehow, I can tell.
For my money its that the whole season was so emotionally artificial and then it turns around and acts like the intellectual mystery was 'really really simple' while the emotional lacking is suddenly brought forward with Ruby's mother being welcomed in without question and Ruby saying I Love You to Gatwa with Gatwa apparently NOT being so emotionally open as we thought. Since when doesnt he visit (now)? 14 is literally retired with a family. Where's 15's growth? What makes him unique apart from going into shock any time he's in danger instead of doing anything useful or clever.
With only 8 episodes it demonstrated what little depth anything actually held compared to s1 of Modern and its experimental nature is thrown out for regular bombastic hijinks. So as inidividual episodes theres not enough of them and as an arc its thoroughly convoluted on plot while being spiritually empty on character relationship and theme. What you're left with is hollow and noisy. Its almost like Susan and Sutekh and even Ruby's mother mystery was just a smokescreen for the nothing characterization and lack of deeper story development ideas. Ruby hardly has a genuine opinion on anything. Gatwa hardly achieves anything. What was this season worth beyond a few loose concepts and a muddled gotcha.
uhhh... this seems, obviously not nearly as reactionary as some other youtubers, but I think there is a similarity in being unneccasarily negative about the episode. Because really it was, at worst an "okay" episode [arguably about as good as the better episodes from the previous era (aside from PotD)]. It's really not a "death knell"! It's at *absolute* most, one "average" episode out of a really solid season. RTD has not "lost it" because of one episode.
Like, this show is supposed to be silly (in a good way) and occasionally, yes it does go a bit far with that [e.g. slitheen, abzorbaloff, the 10th doctor defeating the master basically through the power of prayer]. But even those 3 things together didn't mean that RTD had "ruined the show".
It's a series finale......it's meant to have all the bells and whistles to do one of two things.
1) neatly tie up any loose ends and finish the series.
2) leave the audience wanting more so they return for the next series.
Sadly as a series finale, this did neither.
If it was a mid season episode it gets a a pass, but to end things it was way below expectations
That is your opinion. There is no unneccesary amount of negativity that you can define.
@@dirrdevil well, uh... yes. It is my opinion, hence why I said "I think" that this is unneccasiarily negative. Of course, Mr Tardis is free to dislike the episode (as he did for The Giggle), but just as The Giggle wasn't a "death knell" for new fans, I highly doubt that this series (or this singular episode) is going to be either.
People are allowed to be negative about tv shows. What is this weird cult like behaviour of these types of channels and comment sections worrying about saying things that are bad. Sometime a show, episode, and season is just bad.
@@charg1nmalaz0r51 yeah, if you look at my reply to the other comment, while obviously I have a different opinion to Mr Tardis on both this episode and The Giggle, I don't need him to like either episode, I just think that his claim of this single (at worst, average) episode of Doctor Who being a "death knell" for new fans is just unnecessarily hyperbolic.
Like sure, maybe this wasn't as friendly to new veiwers as it could have been, but I doubt every single new veiwer is going to never watch the show again just because of this one episode...
The only problem I had with it (as someone who hasn't watched the original run of Doctor Who (YET)), is that they ended the part 1 of the finale with the reveal of Sutekh. This meant nothing to me, except for perhaps the Doctor's reaction telling me it was big and they had history.
I think the better ending for part 1 would've been to have everyone being killed off by the sand, which would've revealed to me EXACTLY how dangerous Sutekh is, hyping up part 2.
Despite all that, it was fine and I enjoyed the finale.
Edit for spelling mistakes.
That's exactly how I felt while watching Utopia though. I had no idea who the Master was so the reveal was lost on me. I gathered that Yana was probably a time lord but that was about it. I do agree that this episode does rely more on needing to know who Sutekh was and what happened, which by the way, I didn't know who Sutekh was before this but I figured it out in between the episodes. But to me it felt exactly the same as when I was watching Utopia in 2007. The only difference is that I had no prior knowledge of Doctor Who (except for what had already been shown in NuWho) and now I have some knowledge and the understanding that old characters/villains can just show up at any moment so I'm not as thrown off by it. I did actually recognize the name Sutekh because one of the reviewers I had been watching had been mentioning him in his reviews so when I heard the name it did click for me that I had at least heard the name before. So yeah, I agree that it's not a good jumping off point, but I honestly didn't believe that this season was going to be. Series 1 was definitely better in terms of you didn't have to know anything to start watching because they would explain stuff that came up in an organic way but every once in a while the reveals just wouldn't hit if you didn't know who the character was.
Could Verada Sethu being the new companion/possibly Mudy bring about that doctor/companion conflict though?
I remember first time I watched Dalek. I knew roughly what a dalek was, hadn't seen any classic who, but had the impression they were a bit of a joke and couldn't possibly be scary. That was the popular perception in the UK among normies at the time as I remember it. So the episode is all about explaining why they're scary. It's effective as all hell, and it's also an interesting story about trauma from war in its own right. First time I saw Utopia, I didn't know who the Master was, but 'Holy shit, there's another Time Lord out there. And they're enemies!' That's all you really need, the 'last of the time lords' thing has been so integral to the show we're watching, there's plenty of drama to be wrung from that without needing to go back to the old show. They don't spend that three parter arguing about the Time Monster, they're dealing with what's happening now.
I don't really know what about this would make a new fan interested to know more. They CAN go and do their homework, but As you say, its even difficult to do, so they'd need a strong reason to want to do it. And to do that, they needed to be telling an interesting story now. This is just 'Whats in the box? Oh, its nothing.' Its genuinely baffling.
Take a shot every time Mr TARDIS reminds us that he files taxes for this work
Are we meant to care?
I get that clickbait helps (and the criticism is valid) but the title of the video feels too much like what you'd see from reactionaries
So his actual opinion is reactionary? Get off the internet lad with that echo chamber mentality
Nah, reactionaries would be like "Empire of Death just KILLED the show! (R.I.P. DOCTOR WHO)".
He is. the same coin, different side
As someone who had no investment in any of the mystery boxes, I thought the episode was fine and nothing we haven't seen before, I appreciate the restraint not forcing a Tennant cameo which hijacks the whole episode.
Given how the world of television has shifted in this past decade or so, do you think that Doctor Who should maybe shift away from the larger general audience and become just for the Whovians? Because it feels like it's in a middle ground where it sometimes wants to be for everyone and sometimes wants to be for just Whovian.
But yeah I think we need new blood. I remember when I first learnt Russell was returning, I was momentarily excited but soon deflated because we know what he could do. And I will admit that he has subverted our expectations, maybe not in the best of ways though.
Plus I doubt the starting from series 1 has helped any of this. Out of everything, this feels like the bit where Disney was involved, as it makes it far more marketable. Although given the finale, that feels like nobody read it beforehand, or was read only by a big Whovian
This is one reason why I love Big Finish so much
It feels like a more grown up Doctor Who while still being for everyone
The plots are more interesting as are the characters
The stories are grittier and more grounded in reality
Nobody comes back to life through some timey-wimey cobblers
My favourites are the creepier stories like Spare Parts, Night Thoughts, Embrace the Darkness and Ghost In the Machine
That's what I want the TV version to be
No virtue signalling, no insane inclusivity for the sake of it and no storylines meant only for five year olds
Another problem; they've written and mostly filmed the second season... can they course correct at this late stage if we're building up to another nothing burger finale?
The 16the Doctor: Paul Mcgann, while we still can
I remember being royally confused as to who the master was and why the doctor made a big deal of him being back in utopia. I imagine its like that for the newer fans this season.
I honestly disagree. I think that if you're a new fan of the show, you can follow along well enough, and it does encourage you to check out all that came before. Personally, what I'm upset about is since all that came before is now so hard to find. If you're outside of the UK, you'd think that they'd make it more accessible
I agree that this series ended up being not-very-newcomer friendly, but I think calling it a death knell is a bit much.
This show’s uniquely positioned so that even next season, or the season after that, or the one after that, could be much better jumping on points than this one was.
Your thumbnail looks like a bowlestrek video 😂
I wish Sutekh had more Egyptian iconography. Like have Susan wear an ankh necklace. Or at least have him make reference to his mythological counterpart. Like how in Pyramids he'd rant about Horus or says "I've lived an eternity of darkness and impotence". Since in the myth Horus cut off one of his testicles.
I guess there is a Mrs Flood, but Seth/Set/Sutekh didn't really have a mythological role in that. You could change Sutekh for Fenric/Fenrir and it not be that different.
That being said I have to assume the guy called Ibrahim was a deliberate call back to POM. Why else call him that of all things?
i loved it but, i do also agree with ur criticisms on it too. i showed my partner pyramids of mars after the legend of ruby sunday aired to explain to her about him and all that so. it definitely was oddly confusing for newer fans or fans who only got in from doctors 9 to 15..
Both me and my mom enjoyed this story when we saw it. My mom even said the finale two parter was her favorite of the season. For me the whole story rang true emotionally, though I can see more of the flaws on a logical level in retrospect.
I will say though I do think this era has been failing at being a fresh jumping on point, given all of the fanservice between this and the 60th specials. Say what you will about series 11 but I think it achieved the fresh reboot vibes far better.
Yeah this season should've just been called S14 cuz so much of it is dependent on what has come before at least for the overarching narrative.
Idk what you mean by stop the episode and make them watch pyramids of mars because that didn’t happen with me they just reference it and tbh no new viewer really cares that much about who Sutekh is they just know he’s the big bad and as long as you show that then I think that works the extra stuff is just for the fans
Thank you for changing the thumbnail because im gonna be fr the original one was straight up a bowelstrek thumbnail
I just don’t think having a sequel to a classic story like this is a good idea at all, regardless of the execution. When bringing back an old villain, they should be introduced as though they are completely new, so casual audiences don’t feel alienated. I’m not saying you can’t have any references to classic who, but just don’t rely on it this much. This is something RTD did very well in his first era and I’m not sure why he didn’t do the same here.
I'm 31 and from Germany and I knew of Sutekh only because I read the book "Doctor Who: A History of Humankind", which is a fun book in the style of a history book edited by the Twelfth Doctor as he in an annoyed manner points out what really happened. It's fun to read and you can practically hear Twelve's voice when you read it.
So I was prepared by a coincidence and I knew that he was a classic villain because of that. And I read this book only because of my passion for history, I normally consume very little Doctor Who extended media, apart from some of the recent comics from Thirteen's era.
I feel like we are seriously underestimating the capacity of a newcomer or casual fan to understand and enjoy an episode like this.
My dad and I are big Who fans, especially him, he’s been watching since Pertwee, so we both knew about Sutekh and Susan going in and that context was definitely nice to have! However the rest of my family, who had no context whatsoever (not being as big into the show as the two of us) said they were able to clearly understand and enjoy the episode just fine and are very excited for Christmas and the next season! Obviously it’s not going to be that way for everyone, that’s to be expected, but it goes to show the finale may not have been as limiting as one might think.
Empire of death is the new series equivalent of Attack of the Cybermen
cant see it in Australia without Disney subscription and im not paying that
We can't even watch Classic because someone took it of BritBox.
Use online servers like watch series
Why do the youtubers I curated not understand what happened. Like I thought yall knew Who but nooo.
Love your content, my parasocial friend, but I really don't think the episode was the death knell for new fans getting into Doctor Who. I think it was 'meh'. Just 'meh'. But for real though, I am sorry the cinema experience didn't live up to the hype. I'm hoping they can finagle some reshoots into next season to address some of what let the fans down this season.
i don't see why the whole 'old Doctor Who on a monitor' thing is something you kept on highlighting. To me it wasn't really a big deal and I doubt it would be especially alienating to new viewers. It'd just be "oh they're referencing an old episode I guess? Whatever".
It’s not an interesting story device, it’s a lazy way to give context and also completely misinterprets the episode as nothing more than “culture appropriation”
It was definitely weaker than it should have been. Obviously I was happy to see sutekh, and I didn’t feel like it was any more alienating than The Master, but the episode after the reveal wasn’t enough to pay it off by comparison to the series 3 finale. So many loose ends and dead ends
What worries me the most as a fan is, if this is it for the show, not only will we lose the active part of our fandom, but we lose the opportunity for the show to evolve again and really try to be different, even only with a more different writing team (obviously the premise doesn’t need change) to say nothing of the anti woke, anti imagination jackals who will celebrate the end of the show.
I’m terrified that Disney will just junk this as a foreign sci fi show and the whole point of making Bad Wolf independent (to keep the show alive) will be lost.
Terrific analysis.
Frankly RTD did that before with The Master and Davros when they reintroduced them to the new series with barely any explanation of who they are.
Listen, i hate EOD as much ss the bext guy, but this is a bit of a silly argument
Reasoning?
Why is Sutekh so weak?
I really don't think Dr Who has ever needed a jumping on point. It's about an ancient resourceful alien who travels with a companion or more in a space time machine that' looks like a '60s police call box and is bigger on the inside. Even people who've never seen the thing know that much. Oh, and he has a convenient gizmo or two. Every time anyone comes back the Doctor says he/she has met them before and sketches out what they're about. You could then go back and find out more if you wanted to. You're a bit cozier with it all if you know in advance but it's not necessary.
There's so much that's bizarre about this finale but Davies seems to want all his cakes had and eaten. He wants the "this one is really bad" kick so had to use the side hustle bookended thing to refocus Pyramids. But he decided to strip Sutekh of all Egyptian context to the point where he could just have been "this one is the god of gods" and might as well have been something new. He wants to direct the viewers to classic era stuff but he also wants it to be an unencumbered fresh start. The man's all over the place.
And this was very puerile. The original had references to Egyptian history and myth, HG Wells, an alternate future, unstable gelignite, the classic liar logic puzzle and the propagation speed of radio waves. The wordplay puzzle "Sue Tech" isn't fit for a child's teatime puzzle. The original chillingly effective lines were "I bring Sutekh's gift of death" and "everywhere I tread I leave nothing but dust". So now we get the childishly literal "dust of death".
Which is yet another annoyingly typical modern era rapid wipe of everything, everywhere and everywhen. I think the older stories where the threat was often just as severe but had to be thwarted at the last minute rather than wibbled away after it happens were far more effective. What do we get from this modern approach anyway but "told you it would be awful"? You can do the "it's not over even when it's over" thing just as well before the deadline when all of reality gets turned into blancmange.
Alex Hirsch needs to be an advisor and editor for mystery boxes.
Why, what's he written?
@@Tillyard86 created Gravity Falls
@@casualcraftman1599 IK, but what did he do that means he'd be good for DW?
Massive spoiler warning for Gravity Falls.
Alex Hirsch making a simple twin brother plot twist work would have helped RTD not botched the plot twist of Ruby's mother being normal.
What the fuck has this episode done to peoples brains?? I know so many casual fans - coworkers who gave the season a try because they watched it when they were younger, like Ncuti and wanted to hop on and I'd said literally look through the episodes there are, click the one that sounds like your vibe and try it and it was on the whole either enjoyed or not their vibe - but not because of the "lore implications"?? My sister (who knows nothing of classic) was surprised Sutekh was a returning villain and it wasn't just one of those that the doctor had faced off screen before. This is just hardcore fans panicking on behalf of people getting confused and, in turn, becoming the confused ones.
I did enjoy Dot and Bubble
I respect your point of view and can see where you are coming from with regard to bringing back an old villain for a series that did use any old villains (apart from Maestro being the child of The Toymaker and references to The Trickster and The Mara in the pantheon). Though it did feels to me as though like Chris, Russell was trying to bridge old and new Who and give old fans something to really get excited for and hope that they say how good it was that the new fans look it up or they see themselves as really good and watch the old episodes.
I personally really liked The Empire of Death. I thought the resolution of the mystery felt a bit like a kick in teeth after all the theories I made with my friends. However, I believe that because we invested so much into the theory I think that nothing really could have been good enough .
Upon thinking about it, I personally think that Ruby’s mother being ordinary makes her extraordinary. I think of it this way, we have had Bad Wolf, the DoctorDonna, The Impossible Girl, silence will fall, the hybrid. Nearly every companion or mystery ended up being a big event (which is good as it is payoff) but it gets to a point where each thing has to be bigger than the previous. So in a world where we have all those things, maybe a mother doing a heartbreaking thing based on pure love is enough. Plus Russell said there is more to reveal about Ruby’s family so there is still time to add something more to it.
Heck, even Martha, who The Master said he was so disappointed in The Doctor for choosing when he has had companions who absorbed the power of the time vortex and compared to that Martha is ordinary, became the woman who walked the earth in the year that never was.
And to respond to your point about Sutekh not knowing who Ruby’s mother was. It was explained because the humans invested so much into her mystery that it made her existence more powerful than Time Lords and Gods. Basically we made her harder to find and increased the power of her mystery (A very fantasy way). And that screen was a trap The Doctor and Ruby made to get Sutekh to lower his guard and get them where they needed to be. That is what I got from the episode myself.
Doctor Who needs a whole new team. RTD is done.
Return it to how it used to be in the 70s and 80s when it lived up to its name
Honestly, for me, the character-to-character moments was really fun and good however the Sutekh issue was this felt like it should have been a 3 parter, the 8 part doesn't work for Doctor who I believe the 10 part is the perfect moment. For me, I don't believe Russel is a past Doctor Who, I just believe he needs to focus on how he writes his finales because his best for me is when he's writing a big villain with a grounded story. I think this series best was 73 yards, boom. I believe you do not need a watch this episode's approach with Sutekh, he's such an open book all you needed was "I've faced him once before...I can't win this one." Having the doctor give up hope have a small flashback maybe of Sutekh then have a moment-to-moment fight across the universe where the doctor is consistently losing whilst the universe dies that could have been a sick 2 episode to a 3 parter then a 3rd episode where it seems all is lost, the doctor may be mind controlled, he has to fight his way out of a prism Sutekh put him in. All the ability to create a new story around a character new audiences don't know and don't have to know, creates fear in the present this guy is a threat, he is damn powerful. But hey it's in the past let's hope the next couple of seasons become more in-depth grounded and russel delves into his series 3 allowing more writers to come in (that was also an issue i believe.
I think reviewers, both new and old, have overestimated the mainstream appeal of The Master and the investment in him at the time. As a NuWho viewer who has come to know the Master I wasn't really confused at their presence, I just thought it was an evil I didn't know. The same with Sutekh. I don't really need the history. I'm glad that it's there but I think it was sufficiently explained.
My main point being that no season of NuWho has been a jump on season for someone like me. They're all endowed with a history that requires "homework." And as someone who has grown tired of their overreliance on certain villains, I'm just glad it was a shake up. If you don't know who Sutekh is, he absolutely functions as a new villain.
I really liked this season and thought that the finale was a bit messy but even having now seen Pyramids of Mars, it was 100% not required lol. The sign thing I really didn't like but Mrs. Flood I am interested in. I think the actress plays it brilliantly and her coat was bomb as hell. That is, unless she turns out to be The Master which will take all the wind out of my sails lol.
This right review final eye opener
I really wanted to get my seven year old into the series but this season was just so all over the place.
The wild thing with the finale is that how it played out nobody would be happy. I honestly just want good stories and with a... And watching this as i listen... You nailed it. If this is season one then why call back to such an old episode.
Edit: i do agree on the fan service but there was no reason to bring Sarah Jane back in olden times but it was done pretty well though im certain they really wanted that spinoff.
This was not "fanservice" done well and was simply FS for the sake of FS.
I could be wrong but I thought gods be they Egyptian or Greek are supposed to be eternal beings that never die. Gods therefore are dangerous to bring into DW. Really all Sutekh would have to wish someone dead and they would die. Gods are too powerful for Sci-fi.
Honestly, I didn’t even like Rogue that much and I’m not entirely sure if that’s a hot take
But I do agree with you; it’s a weird finale and this season definitely confirmed a few concerns about Russel’s new era I had
I enjoyed Empire Of Death and while I understand the criticisms it has, it didn’t make the story unenjoyable for me, because I’ve been a fan for about ten years now an I’m easily entertained when it comes for Doctor Who.
I remember being a total newbie to Doctor Who in 2005, getting into the show as a kid because my parents used to watch it. When we got to 'Dalek,' yes it introduced some old concepts back into the show, but it did so in a way that was welcoming, that promised that there was more to be seen if you wanted it, but didn't rely on that. Sutekh could have been the same- the ending speech from his harbinger in Legend of Ruby Sunday was a pretty good intro piece to his whole deal- but it screwed it up by being SO reliant on references in the second part. Make Sutekh be there for some reason unrelated to a specific story from the past, make the Memory TARDIS less of an infinite reference storage room, don't have Mel be there (I'm not ideologically against her presence, it's just that she's like the third layer deep of specialist knowledge, maybe put her in a less front loaded arc).
And then maybe have the climax rely on a little more than getting close enough to the bad guy to clip on a leash.
I haven’t seen the old episodes it was calling back to, and it had no impact on my enjoyment of it. Some of the writing and payoffs for the season were weak, but it was by no means a death knell for new fans, and not even a uniquely bad season finale. This seem hyperbolic.
I think when Russell T Davies said there would be no returning villains he may have meant villains that have already appeared in new Who such as Daleks, Cybermen, Master, Davros rather than returning villains from the classic series. If you consider the way that Russell T Davies as brought back villains from the classic series he tends to bring them back in the order that they appeared in the main series e.g. series 1 - Daleks, series 2 Cybermen, series 3 Master, series 4 Davros and Sutekh followed on from Davros in the classic series. This is why I think Mrs Flood could be the Rani and the way each time she appears she seems to be cosplaying past companions e.g. Clara, Rory, Bill, Romana maybe similar to the way the Rani cosplayed Mel in Time and the Rani.
She does? I never noticed the cosplaying thing. I have to go back and pay attention to that! 😀
I kind of appreciated as a mainly new who fan being given a drive to dive into classic who finally. They shouldn’t have framed it as the jump on season, but I think that’s the same with any season. All of it is both jump on able and also not.
I highly disagree with this.
Don't get me wrong, Empire of Death has a lot of problems. But, bringing back a villain from a classic episode that general audiences won't have seen is not one of them.
You absolutely do not need to watch Pyramids of Mars to understand what's going on. In fact, I don't even think they needed all those moments where they're watching the episode on the screen. It's not relevant. It's well established here that Sutekh is a villain the Doctor has faced before and he defeated him by banishing him into the time vortex. That's all you need. This is barely the same Sutekh anyway.
If this finale deters new fans from getting into the show proper, it'll be because of the poor payoff to the mystery or the plot holes or the lack of stakes.
Not because the appearance of a classic villain alienated them.
Maybe it would have been better if they focused on Ruby's mom this season and maybe go with a something-alien-included storyline for this season, then wait til the 2nd season to concentrate on Sutekh's return - that way they could have included a few more hints as to who Sutekh was - maybe even a story involving the legacy of the Osirans...
Is it bad that I got a huge rush of endorphins when Sutekh was crashed by the vortesx? or that first cliff hangar? I dunno. Guess it worked on me because I saw Pyramids on the Sarah Jane Adventures boxset as an extra (somehow it was on there. It might have just been part 4 or an omnibus version. Someone who knows can correct me). I'm OBSESSED with continuity so...I think we can be glad I'll never be in charge of the show.
I got my boyfriend into the show with this new season and now I'm embarrassed to suggest watching the finale with him because it's confusing
Agreed, the finale was a mess, particularly the second part. Completely undermined any good work during the season.
As someone who has never watched Pyramids of Mars or really knew much about Sutekh before this finale, I was able to follow along with what the episodes provided…but it didn’t really carry much weight. The only reason why the set up worked as well as it did for me was because I enjoyed the fact that people were right about Sutekh returning (I had seen fan theories beforehand). Had I actually gone into LoRS blind, I probably would’ve been left a bit confused.
I feel like The Giggle and World Enough and Time did a better job of reintroducing old foes (Toymaker and Mondasian Cybermen) because they did a better job of establishing who they were and what made them unique. When it came to Sutekh, I was wondering why he was so focused on who Ruby’s mom was, especially with how OP it was. It made the reveal that Ruby’s mom was ordinary work less for me because then why was Sutekh so focused on her? I couldn’t tell if he was written in character or if it was just really contrived writing
Even if you know who Sutekh is, he wasn't interesting enough to warrant another appearance, especially now.
I found some tales of the tardis on UA-cam. I think I got all of them. I’m not convinced. They were just mini series right like 10-15 min each?
I’ve been watching for 8 years or so. I stumbled across 9th doctor while looking for a new show to watch and fell in love.
I recently watched a reactor who has never seeen dr who starting with this newest doctor. It was helpful for my heart because I had a harder time this round. Watching his discovery was fun. He enjoyed it. Yes he missed all the little bits, but being filled in wouldn’t help later anyway. Who says you have to watch in order? Timely whimey right?
Fir it was anti climax. Sutekh is defeated way to easily, ruby's mother mystery goes absolutely no where. Most welcome have is misses flood. Who we're no closer to figuring out who she is
For an old fan bringing back Sutekh was a great treat..... then after all that "big deal" lead-up and how powerful he is.... he's done in by "walkies" into the Vortex. Let's be honest, RTD simply cannot draft a satisfying ending.
I gotta say I really disagree with your takes for this episode. I’m really enjoying this season as a normal fan of Doctor Who. I hope you enjoy next season better!