What Is Causing This?!
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- Опубліковано 28 лют 2023
- Tom gets a call because the concrete at a warehouse is heaving. Check out what he finds underneath the concrete!
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Tom , without a proper soil test this could come back to bite you .We were called in to remedy a slab in a municipal garage that was heaving , after breaking out a section of floor 8"thick we had a soils engineer take a coring sample , his findings were we were actually on a peet bed that was app 4' deep , if not deeper .Their solution was to layer 2" dense blue styrofoam in a predetermined criss cross pattern to stabilize the future concrete floor , surprisingly this was done in numerous building in the area and was a working solution . we did this app 8 yrs ago and it is a municipal vehicle garage , so far we have had no problems , we are in the metropolitan Chicago area ! hope for the best and pour the rest !
Was the job done wrong? Or are you being a critic?
@@paulrosselle9747 Did you read what he said?? This "could come back to bite you" because he may have needed to excavate more material. However, if the water table was that high, what then?? I'm sure there could have been more testing and greater costlier solutions, but being a leased building with the owner responsible for the repairs, I get it. I don't think the guy was being a critic, he was sharing his experience with a solution that works in similar situations...
DC maybe people didn't realize the business owner is responsible for the maintenance and upgrades and not the building owner.
Agreed. Seem it before. Styrofoam. Drainage would help a lot. Next big rain....
@@paulrosselle9747 no on both counts . Job was bid as occupant wanted it repaired .Owner of building should have known this was a problem since he has owned it .I'm just being honest that we had a similiar problem with a municipal building , the floor was heaving .After numerous attempted repairs owner called us and we immediatly took soil borings .Boring company suggested excavating to minus 4ft and layering in 2 in styrofoam in a pre determined pattern to within 10in of finish grade and pour with rebar ....it works !
I am a life-long engineering QA/QC person, and I really enjoy watching a conscientious professional boss running a good team. You are a good example to others. Keep on keeping on !
Thank you very much. I really enjoy every day.
Amen brother
It may have been a good idea to have dug a 10 foot hole , 3' in diameter put a 3' diameter piece of culvert in it with weep holes and put in a sump pump. Cut a channel for a a drain pipe . By lowering the water table it could prevent future heaving. Just a thought.
I was in commercial construction for over 45 years and have experience with heaving and subsidence. Generally speaking, depending where you are geographically, heaving can be caused by many things like leaking pipes under the slab, unstable soils types below the slab such as high P.I. soils or fat clays. A soils investigation by a qualified Geotechnical engineer would expose this before foundation and slab work if employed. In severe cases the entire slab may need to be removed and remedial work applied to the subgrade such as lime stabilization or complete soil replacement. It's always a complicated subject with lots of finger pointing. Good luck!
Appreciate your comments from professionals that has had practical experience in a construction dilemma like this. The owner of this property I’m sure appreciates all the input as well as Tom.
Always enjoy watching you and your team figure out the problem, and then professionally finishing it!! Thanks for the soil education Tom.
Our pleasure!
Hey Tom, first time viewer of your channel here. First, great episode and wonderful explinations. Thank you! We ran into a similar issue in Lubbock, Texas back in 2009. Slag was used as a base media, and we found that every time it rained our warehouse would heave. Our company was a distributor of water chemistry for industrial treatment so 275 gallon totes would go in and out all day on forktrucks. We would avoid traveling over the effected area when it did heave, as best we could. That said, we did not tear out. Instead (since the building was at the base of a hill and water was pooling in a low area around the building) we built a 3' deep french drain around 3/4 of the building. Mainly around the areas were no traffic would be. Almost instantly the slag stopped heaving as we diverted any water away from the foundation and out toward the street for runoff. This solved our issue, and 14 years later we're still doing great! Might be something worth suggesting. We also placed a few layers of poly in the bottom of the trench and up the wall toward the building, then covered it, to prevent any passthrough leeching. It's not cheap, but it's cheaper than pouring 3000 sq.ft. of concrete again. Water, it's a huge pain in the butt.
Great episode! I'll be back for sure!
I spent a career in commercial/industrial construction supervision, & my compliments on this video!… very clear presentation from the guy doing the work!
I’ve forwarded this on to construction colleagues, recommending both the video & the many astute comments to it.
Wow, thank you!
Very nice you took the time to explain about expanding soil’s. Most people wouldn’t do that that gives us all the indication of your character Tom thank you very much very useful information
Glad it was helpful!
Very informative Tom. I learned something new with this video. I like how you do your homework to solve the problems that you encounter during the jobs you do. And how you ask for help if you don't have all the answers. Great job. Stay safe.
I love challenges and I really enjoyed learning new things
@@Concretewiththehauses In any industry, if you are not learning, you are probably going backwards, and there is always more to learn.
Nice job Tom, and it seemed a good compromise to fix what really had to be repaired and not tearing out the entire floor. Nice weather in there too, considering it’s feb!
Thanks 👍
Killing it my guy
Nice repair job 👍 Good info on the fill they used back in tha day !! Hats off to all of yall !! :)
It happens, most often contractor error, did all you could.
Working indoors even for a couple days (especially in a factory setting) makes me miss the outdoors. I can’t imagine working everyday in there. Nice work!
Tell me about it
I like in golden Colorado and knew the answer to your expansive soil question. We have it up and down the front range as there is much clay in the soil. Builders in homes out here have resorted to NOT pouring basement floors but they hang a joist style floor in many homes (most of the homes out here have basements, unlike some other areas as our water table is much lower). We also must build floating walls when finishing a basement or any walls on top of concrete (look up floating walls, and they aren’t to difficult but they are SUPER important so you don’t destroy a home).
Good video Tom, thanks
Very interesting the different techniques
Hi Tom, After WWII a lot of brick homes were built in the Pittsburgh area, many used the J&L slag from the pile along the Parkway North. A lot of people used the slag because it was cheap as opposed to 2-B washed gravel. Eight years or so later the foundation blocks began deteriorating Requiring the house to be lifted everything removed and new block foundation installed. The ground was with the slag interacted with the concrete eating each out!!
Wow, that is amazing. Imagine the price tag on all of that.
I have seen the same thing happen before. During construction, a access road is built thru the site. Many times fly ash is added early into the ground to dry up areas that traffic has pumped up moisture. Most of the time the area that was used as a access road will hump up during the curing time after the concrete is poured. It looked to me like the heaving of the concrete was uniform and in a straight line from end to end of the building. The access road thru the building would not have the same substrate as the rest of the building.
What a mess
I enjoyed the video ,nothing like somebody talking incessantly and showing very little of the actual work done
Nice work, Tom, great video!👍🏻
Thanks! 👍
Loving the new music…perfect touch.
I'm from the Sacramento area. The Sacramento Valley is an ancient area of yearly flooding from the rivers coming down to the valley. We have a lot of expandable soil here. An old timer taught me a trick to drill post holes in this type of earth and fill with 3/4" crushed stone and cover the holes with sheetrock. Then more crushed stone on top to allow the subbase to expand and contract without heaving. Of course if you have water migration you need to correct it by digging French drains around the perimeter of the building and route the water away. Hope this is helpful.
Amazing figuring things out to make projects work. I love it. Thanks.
Good input from your viewers. A lot of old pros who knew the source of the heaving immediately. Could be worse if the soil is toxic.
There are definitely a lot of good comments
What is the 'slag' made from? I understand the company owner is leasing the building and isn't going to pay out any more than necessary. This really reminded me of my 9.5 years in construction. When we had bad weather they would try to find work inside for us. We were bricklayers, but we did many different jobs inside. Better than signing up. Less than 32 hours, we would sign up for temporary unemployment. Wasn't a full week pay, but better than no pay. You pointing out the dried/frozen mudd in your skid loader, reminds me also if jobsites. The brick crew was on site when it was fresh. Just graded dirt w a concrete footer. Any amount of water makes a muddy mess on everything! So I feel for you, it's a day to day problem when working on new jobsites. So many of us can honestly say, "I hate mudd!" I did remember y'all being there the first time. Another great video in the books! Thanks Tom.👍🙏❤🇺🇸🇺🇸
Thanks Keith it’s always a struggle working in the winter
Tom thanks for the video love it and you guy,s work very hard .
Thanks for watching!
Awesome repair work!
Good analysis, expandable soil is a real pain to have under big structures.
I was just going to say but you said it, drainage. Spot on Tom!
Maybe they should cut a ditch in the back of the building facing the hillside?
I'm sure I'm not the only one that can do without the loud music
Amother awesome job Tom you sure know your concrete i so much enjoy watching you channell
Thanks 👍
I hydro excavate every day here in Colorado Springs. We have a lot of different soils here. I dug a 22 ft deep 4ft diameter hole and it was all sand. Other spots we have clay, sandstone and tons of river rock and cobble.
I used to work for a construction company that did the exact same type of work you are doing in factories. Instead of breaking the concrete up,we used to cut the floor in 3'x3' and or 4'x4' slabs and remove the pieces with a skid-steer with fork attachments. Then used the typical bucket for final clean up. We found it was much quicker and cleaner. Every job is different, just sharing my experience with you.
I’ve seen that skid steer attachment in operation. Clamps large cut junks in pieces as you described. Tom might even have one. I’m guessing his concrete cutter might be limited in cutting depth. Anyway this crew is on it as always. There’s another UA-cam (Gate City Foundation) channel who does some concrete removal using the method you described. I’m amazed how much I’ve learned about concrete. Until recently I had little understanding of the technology, planning & precision work and pride.
@@MikeZMonroe Nothing hydraulic. Just regular forks, the same as on a forklift.
That sounds like a lot of salt cutting definitely need a bigger saw
Good morning everyone from
Virginia Beach…very interesting video. Thanks again for sharing. Catch ya on the next one
Have a Day
Thanks, you too!
My dad used to do Diamond drilling to test soil before large buildings or roads and bridges before they were built. Was interesting to learn this from him
I’m looking forward to learning more
Definitely a Five Star presentation. Thanks.
Our pleasure!
Great video ! Never heard of this problem!
Thanks
I love watching true professional work doing it the right way
Thanks
Underground coalmining in WV made part of 2 lane road heave up , rock-dust came in white bags like the ones in that warehouse , You and your crew did good job fixing the floor
Thanks for the info
That is an interesting piece of information, I have a similar situation in an equipment garage on the farm.
Hope it helps
Nothing wrong having that "go to expertise" makes you and your business more diversified and profitable. And that's the bottom line. Always enjoy and look forward to seeing your videos.
Thanks
Awesome work!
Thanks a lot!
I've been watching a couple of your videos, I first ran into concrete work the summer I was 14 when my mother and I sold our house to a family friend. The house was...expired let's say.
I helped them tear down the old and build the new house that spring/summer/autumn of 1975. It was a skinny lot with septic so we had to move a whole lot of cement the old fashioned way, the basement pour was 3 wheelbarrows and 6 suckers including myself.
Fast forward and passing some other jobs I helped with including converting a Michigan cellar into a basement by dropping the basement and foundation a foot... I found myself in Colorado Springs in the summer of 1982, for some reason they didn't want to hire people from Michigan so I found myself going from building site to building site( they were building a lot of sub-divisions/homes/businesses ) pretty much doing a tiny bit of clean-up and a lot of wheelbarrowing cement across a 2x4 to a foundation or to the block masons.
After a summer of that and still no job prospects I joined the army October of 82.
I wonder how those houses and foundations lasted.
Hard work but I enjoyed my adventure, and made enough to get by for awhile.
Enjoyed the video and lesson on soil and the professional way you conduct buisness.
As you looked for answers to your questions regarding the possible cause (s) of the heaving, you took us along on an interesting, informative video.
Thanks
Good work!
Thanks!
Well done sir!!
Thanks
We used to get mill service slag down here from Weirton Steel. Lots of iron in it which made it heavy and pack really hard. I was always told it “off gases” which wouldn’t let you pour concrete over it because it would heave the concrete.
The only thing I remember was cured slag, and even that had a little bit of a smell to it, but it didn’t stay around very long I want to say very early 80s
We always called it Flyash. It does have expansive qualities as well as some trace environmental issues. Good content. Thx
Thank you
Its funny, as soon as the truck shows up it kind of looks like a pack of dogs on a three legged cat!!
That’s what it feels like sometimes
"I need a concrete guy to call"....pretty funny stuff, Tom. LOL Just an FYI...we know a guy. 😀
I can just imagine you trying to call yourself. 🤣🤣
Caller ID I would see its me and not answer
@@Concretewiththehauses 🤣🤣
as a retired production forklift operator, a big thank you!
You are welcome
I have run into this problem before. The way I delt with the problem was I used hog wire and 5/8 rebar. Now I did do this job in New Mexico where the desert meets mountains. There the ground moves a lot. The first thing we had to do was remove around three feet of soil and put it back four inches at a time. Compacting it all the way back to grade. I made a rebar gride of 12" by 12" through out the whole floor. Next I put down four inch square hog wire on top of the rebar. When we did the pour, we pulled the hog wire up into the slab. So far this has helped the slab stay intact. Twelve years later it is still in place with no cracks. by the way we also added two extra inches of concrete to the slab. In the fifties people didn't do soil test or go thick with the product. Slump makes a big difference when put down the product. Dryer is better is some cases
Interesting thanks
I was taught that when repairing a slab, like this, to undercut the existing/remaining slab carefully and the new concrete acts as a foot or ledge to support the old so that the two slabs don't part company or the edge of the old/remaining slab cracks as it's not so well supported.
Really nice job , good team, well done guys
Thanks
Do you like using a vibratory blade type float on a job like this, if not why not.Thanks.
Tom… the obverse can also happen. If the expandable soil was wet (expanded) when the building was constructed, then a lowering of the water table could have caused the problem. The area around the perimeter of the building could have a lowered water table for some reason and the soil settled. Here in Wisconsin, it is quite common to have level manholes in the winter and they turn into bumps in the summer. Here it is frost raising the roadway and the manhole doesn’t get frost under them. A similar thing happens with the expandable soils. The “draining” of the perimeter could be weather caused or somebody may have just installed an underground utility and inadvertently created a French drain and over the years the water table lowered a bit.
Super insightful comment. In reading other comments there’s a wealth of very knowledgeable people watching Tom who respectfully comment as they really technically know there $hit.
You’re right, that sounds like it could happen
This is my thought too. Add in the fact, they are stacking heavy materials around the exterior of the building, that adds weight on the building foundation. The building is settling slightly.
Tom we call them " job security ". Great job as always!
Thanks
Great Work 💪👍
Thanks 🔥
Tom, that is funny you say that about the geographical changes around it may be causing it to show up now. I was thinking the same exact thing at the beginning of the video. You know how much the area has changed in the last 20 years. No retention pond is going to stop all the water going to where it wants to. I don't know here the plant is but I do know the general vicinity, and all the water flows to the lowest spot. I really love your videos, man. I get something out of each and every one. Thank you for the entertainment and brain racking.
You are very welcome. Thanks.
The worst footing I had to date and it had to be dug by hand was Delaware. I used the spade bit on the jackhammer. There was no access for equipment.
Does not sound fun
Very interesting problem in that building.
I'm from Australia and have done more concreting than I like to remember. Your finishing was second to none.
We also have expandable soils or as we say highly reactive clays. They are generally black cracking soils.
Many foundations and house slabs have broken in half on these soils.
We use pre fabricated mesh in slabs and footings in Australia on a lot smaller grid.
Every area seems to have this problem
Nice video!
Thanks!
Professor Tom.
Thanks for the video
My pleasure!
That happens my sister garage had the same problem,sections of the concret poping up
I worked on a house where the basement floor heaved, poor drainage, no space heater, fhakin cold weather. Bad combo !!!
Floor split down the middle and lifted almost 3” pushing the lally columns up too. After thawing, the carpenters had to cut an 1-1/2” off most of the columns. The floor of course never completely settled and had a good 1/2” canyon the length of the house.
Another house,luckily only had 3’ of ice in the basement 😬 didn’t hurt the floor or house. Didn’t need a step ladder to rough in the plumbing and heat piping .
That sounds nasty
Tom, this is about some past pours. On the steps I notice you set your form boards at height of slab. When I did steps I ripped the bottom of the board at a 45 degree angle so that I could trowel right to the step. When I pulled the form there wasn’t anything to trowel out. Of course, we let things get a bit dryer first.
So u just use 8s in it ass the way up (8s are 3/4 minus limestone w very minimal finer stuff, just enough to compact)
Good morning from Clemson, South Carolina 🐅
Morning!
There is a gentleman on UA-cam that does concrete work. He has a worker by the name of Jim that could probably help you out with your concrete questions 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣.
I agree, 😂 😂 😂
Tricky parts getting him to answer his phone ha ha thanks
that guy with board screed is kinda magical😄👍
Thanks,
Thanks for sharing
My pleasure
I figured hydraulic pressure was the cause, so I was partially correct. Interesting video Tom and very informative.
Thanks 👍
In our area, they would use fly ash when pouring sidewalks. They humped it up in the middle of the sidewalk so that they didn't have to use as much concrete. Then the sidewalk would crack down the middle. I found some that the concrete was less than 2" thick in the middle, 4" thick on the sides. They saved money and it looked okay when they left
Crazy
Great video. Should tape seams. Should double that 6 mil or use 10+ mil vapor barrier. French drain around building may be considered to catch water.
The expansive soils could be 10s if not hundreds of feet below the surface. Placing an impermeable surface (concrete) over the surface increases the moisture levels of the underlying soils due to the blocking of the evaporation/transpiration route. A undercut will only help if the expansion area is completely removed. Next time...hire an engineer before you build!
The best way to approach this type of job is to get the client to engage a suitably qualified engineer to do the investigation and to design the remedy and to supervise and inspect your work .
This way you are just doing what the client requested and the engineering risk is carried by the client and their engineer and not you .
I'm betting if you check outside around the building the drainage has changed and the waters not getting away from the building because this would have been a problem long ago.
This happens often gravel added outside / inconvenient drainage ditch closed up / building added next door dumping water .
I think you’re right
Inserting 1/8th plywood into sawcuts will prevent spalling to existing concrete while you break up and remove existing concrete.
Good idea
They could do with a good drainage system at the side of that building where the hill is, might remedy this for the future
Ohh shit tell joe he better get a mini excavator for that expandable soil
If ground water is an issue, Geofoam under the concrete makes a great support and liquid barrier.
While you might have some expansive clays in there, the culprit is likely the slag itself. When moisture moves into areas of slag backfill it causes it to corrode and the corrosion causes significant expansion.
Tom you should definitely send those soil samples out for inspection by a certified company just to be absolutely positive about the underlying cause of this
We dumped on site we still may do a soil study just out of curiosity
Granular slag it was white and had a rotten egg smell and it came out of the mill hot but when it got hard man was it tough to break out ! You had to chip away at it it would never come out in large chunks ! And when it got wet it would expand. And would expand at the point of least resistance which in your case is up forcing the concrete to heave ! Thats what Century III mall is built on that whole area is a big slag dump ! I think that was one of the issues they had there was concrete floors and structural posts lifting !! I remember using granulated slag a lot when I first started working as a laborer while in high school .in the 70's ! There were a lot of by products from steel making used in construction !
Some people called that " popcorn "
Sounds pretty accurate
Slag is the byproduct of making iron and then the melting of steel or other metals using a flux to refine the metal wanted. The slag from smelting iron and then steel is mostly from the limestone used as the flux. It floats on iron or steel in the molten state and cools to a rock-hard consistentcy which is broken by explosives and crushed. It makes great railroad track ballast.
I remember when the expansive soil problem was a big item in the Colorado Springs and front range area. So many houses of the post WWII building boom were damaged by the expansive clays in the area in the late 60s and 70s.
Smooth finish to stop wear on fork lift tiers
When you're taking samples of the sub base like you did, try using a cordless SDS on hammer only mode with a 2 inch wide spade bit, it'll give you a lot more control than a digging bar and should let you get a less contaminated sample.
We always called it expansive clay, add water to it gets soft and expands, remove water it shrinks, gets hard and cracks.
Tom should put you in his Rolodex for road related questions (you probably already are). Enjoy your channel Mike, stay safe and have a day!
I’m surprised to see how common this is
Coal fired power plants sold that in my area in the 70's to contractors for fill. Coal ash is the mineralized residue left over from burning coal to generate electricity. It's actually a collection of different types of materials, called coal combustion products or coal combustion residuals: fly ash, flue gas desulfurization products, bottom ash, and boiler slag.
Good info
With EPA requirements lime is added when burning bituminous coal so it makes a good candidate for making concrete.
the crap they used in the 60s is now used to seal wells ponds lakes and anything that needs a high pressure expansion. can expand 3 times its volume.
i worked at kaiser steel in fontana california an there is no mitaken the smell of mill slag. i think a 6 inch slab is what should have been in the building with rebar!! tom i feel confident that it will be a strong fix!!
Thanks
I think it's a mix of they really believed in the substrate equally to what was readily available.
Quick idea
That works real well,
Without a fault..
Spray adhesive for poly
Roll 4 foot back spray it
Spry 4 foot laying there and lay on top of each other, 100 percent water tight, and makes a full sheet continues.
Not saying that you are incorrect with the assumption that the mill slag is exhibiting expansive properties, but there are other questions that need to be asked and answered to have a definite answer to the floor problem.
Right off the bat. . That floor system doesn't look as if was designed to hold the dead weight of material in super sacks or the fork trucks to move them, or the tractor trailer loads being driven on that floor. Too much weight for a 4 to 6" slab of mostly unreinforced concrete. . With no dowel bars to transfer the loads from slab to slab, and extremely large saw cut spacing could all be contributing to this issue.
While it's entirely possible that environmental changes in the area causing the ground water to rise. . I would start checking the basics first. . Blocked storm drain. . Broken roof leaders. . etc. Way cheaper to unclog a drain than it is R&R the slab, without even identifying or fixing the original issue.
Also worth noting. . That mill slag can be some bad shit. . . It wasn't unheard of for the steel plants to dump the wasted chemicals used to prevent oxidation of the product coming out of the furnace, into the slag pits. Benzene, toluene, and Xylene. . To name a few. So maybe disturbing that shit might not be the greatest idea.
Very interesting thanks for sharing
Heavy truck traffic area, lack of a moisture barrier, lack of adequate reinforcement (rebar) Lots of contributing factors to the heave issues. Hause's will make it right!
Thanks
It’s interesting the tenant is responsible for a pre existing condition under the guise of maintenance. Luckily we don’t deal with moisture conditions in soil that can cause issue’s around here. Good video.
Very interesting
Nice job
Thanks for watching
I've been doing a lot of work around Philadelphia. That base is absolutely everywhere here as general fill.
Be careful,lots of drainage
Interesting. That was learn for the day.
Thanks
Tom! I see Ryan with Victory Concrete Services in Wisconsin stole your thunder..lol..he made a slump cone video..I guess you have another fan in Wisconsin..lol
Ha ha oh well
What I find astounding is that the user of the warehouse and not the proprietor, is responsible for the maintenance of the building. Here in the UK it is the proprietor that is responsible for the upkeep, though a number of bad owners don't comply with this ethos.
Had a client that after we got to talking, he said he had a career of building mega warehouses. The thing that stuck out to me was that he never used rebar. He said Slabs over 7” thick didn’t need them. If the forklifts started to have issues or the floor started to crack they’d cut it out in 15’ sections and repour. He said his building were acres big. Interesting concept.
I can understand that on the floor that size
Bentonite in Colorado is the one I’m most curious about. I know basement walls have to be hung from the ceiling joists or walls and are never supposed to be anchored to floor. I’m in Minnesota where basements are a guarantee in every home we just bolt down our bottom plates. We have frost heave but nothing in the ground that heaves. Just rocks under soil here.
Those bags in that building look like how PVC comes to make vinyl fence
Sounds right some sort of plastic
Very good video
Thanks
They were having too much fun to share with you
It's been my experience that finishing isn't hard but you do have to have "the touch". But I've not stayed at a "Holiday Inn" recently.
My first thought when you said it was heaving underneath that is was as slag.
Thanks