Interesting, it's consistent with my seat of the pants findings when testing different AFR's on my draw-thru Carb'd turbo sportster. When I would set it so that the wideband read low 11's through the pull, it would dip into the 10's past 5000rpm because of the turbo just pulling more fuel from the carb at high RPM, and the power would just die off hard. Bike had a decent torque but it felt like the timing map pulled 10 degrees up top. When I would lean it out so that it was 12.0 during the pull richening to 11.4-11.7 up top, it felt like it gained 15HP, which would be a similar percentage gain to what you found here.
That gauge reading and probe reading definitely got me cause just had gauge reading different to the probe and had my friends told me the tuner doesn't know what they're doing. But the graph showed no problems !
Tests like these always end up with more questions. A variable that would be cool to see added to the mix is more timing set to mbt/boarderline knock with a richer mixture vs a leaner mixture. Just because fuel burn speed can be slowed up with a richer mixture which effects the desired spark timing for MBT. Gasoline tends to have a much narrower peak power mixture range than alcohol based fuels though so on this particular test its probably not enough to change the results to something unexpected. Doing the same test with ethanol and a high powered ignition coil I think might give some interesting results though. What was notable about your testing was how top end seemed to respond a lot better to a leaner mixture vs the mid range to the point of really extending the powerband. Definitely a cool experiment, digging this kinda content.
yes exactly! i wish i had the time to really do all the testing and stuff id like to do and the way id really like to. its a lot of fun. def. going to learn a lot doing this stuff. i need to put a car together for myself with a more flexible ecu. i wish there were more hours in the day.
3500 $ motec wideband uses stock LSU bosch OEM sensor. The gauge itself can make a difference at interpretating the sensor value,but i doubt it's off that much,since they use a bosch LSU too on the AEM. What is your opinion ? Does the tail pipe sensor can be fooled by soot,falling off the pipe itself during pulls,knowing it's accumulating there the rest of the time ?
Even though the sensor is the same the controllers themselves play a huge roll in it. You can really tell in sensor life. The motec has CAN output and adjustable 5v output but the biggest thing, and the thing they make it so valuable is that you never have to question it unlike other options. I have 2 or the PLMs. One is set up to use a Bosch sensor and the other is set up for a NTK (software selectable, another huge benefit) and it also has a free air calibration. I think they have come down in price but i haven’t looked. Either way they are expensive, but they work so good that after buying one i had to get a second one if that helps put it into perspective haha
@@michaelovitch it’s not for everybody, doesn’t make sense to put it in a street car. most capable ecus have proper lambda meters built in now a days or a simple can controller but something like the PLM is more for shop use.
Very nice Joe great video. Some really great info the Dyno is a great too. I always say you still got to read plus even if you are just street tuning a DIY garage setup. The Dyno will get you closer and take guess work out.
TPV Productions yup still pull plugs all the time. But sometimes what the spark plug says and what the power output says can be different. Or you run around in circles for days chasing no difference in power. Plus the dyno is fun haha
On my old 2 stroke bikes I always ended up a little bit rich to get max speeds, it did however required me to "tickle" the throttle a little at the end of the rev range. Perhaps there is a little bit more compression as the piston speed picks up?
I cant believe 50hp! I changed mine to 11.5 and made a pull last night..butt dyno felt good..and my injector duty cycle was only at 79 apposed to 86 @ 10.6 ish.. the motor is a forged piston stock crank/rods with afr 165 heads S trim so i try to stay on the safe side, but it is intercooled so i do go about 23 degrees timing at 5500 around 8 psi.
Очень крутые видео. Спасибо большое. Я очень удивлен малому просмотру. Я любитель настройки своей машины. правил прошивку больше 200 раз наверное за все время. Атмосферный мотор. 92 бензин. Последний раз степень была уже 10.3 и мотор работал без детонации. Кстати мало кто пробовал на малой нагрузке использовать сверх бедную смесь топлива. Смесь беднее 15 горит дольше и угол зажигания снова приходится увеличивать. Причем в отличии от супер богатой смеси, бедная смесь резко начинает терять мощность. Я на частичной нагрузки делал смесь почти 16 к 1. Далее я обеднял смесь ещё чуть больше, находил пропуски воспламенения. Далее я начинал изменять фазу впрыска (угол открытия форсунок относительно коленвала) форсунок. Находил значение оптимальное для бедной смеси. Мотор намного интереснее начинал ехать. Далее возвращал смесь в 16. Получал мотор который едет на 16 почти как на 14.7!! Очень хочется увидеть подобный эксперимент. Так же хочется увидеть разницу в фазе впрыска ( в открытый и закрытый клапан).
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest Ok ok, will check the video after this. But do you think if we Advancing The Ignition Timing the AFR will be a bit leaner than before we Advancing the Ignition Timing in the ECU?
I'd like to see how you use steady state for finding MBT, esp on octane limited fuels (e10 pump 91 for example), like what RPM break points, how much load range (low load vs high load) and whether you do it in the higher RPM ranges and loads, or if you just do it to find an approximate MBT at say 4k RPM and then interpolate from there to redline to not risk the motor. Also your thoughts on knock monitors vs det cans, etc. Keep up the great work, I'd like to buy a mainline hub dyno down the road when I have the available cash.
Basically all that you just listed is in the next video i plan to do. Well, it may be broken up into a couple of videos but yea keep an eye out! I actually filmed the steady state video already, but the sound was all jacked up for some reason it was too awful to use so I’ll have to do it again!
What v-band have you found works the best. I have looked around for ones that are deeper so that they aren't as prone to waring when they get welded but haven't had much luck, even with having the clamp tight around the flanges when I weld them. Just came across the channel, you have some cool stuff up here
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest last question i wont bother you anymore for a stock viper gen 5 build what do you use for mods heads and cam .. do you build and make your own ?
Mr. S. Ask away doesn’t bother me. The viper stuff that has been posted on here was all rental stuff so i didn’t have anything to do with the build. All the viper stuff i have personally done has been bolt on supercharger stuff or fabricating some stuff
Probably useless info to you now but just saw your comment and thought I’d help anyway. For an AEM wideband using LSU 4.9 sensor, I’ve had the best luck with Bosch sensor with Bosch part no. 0 281 004 191 and VW part no. 03L906262Q. Also only activate the gauge/sensor when up to operating temperature. The condensation in the tailpipe will soon kill the sensor and reduce the accuracy.
Question, I have a WHP knock sensor on my built 2.2L f20b. I'm running on a s300 v3. Can you utilize the knock sensor to fine tune the ecu or do you just turn it off when tuning?
C R i S Yap i have a couple of motec plm wideband that are worth their weight in gold. My dyno has a tech edge which has been rock solid. I suggest guys buy the NTK/Ballanger if you want something that’s good quality that isn’t crazy expensive. That is what was in this car that i kept referent to
Joe Simpson thanks man! I looked it up they are just above $300. Thats not bad. Ive had 3 wideband thay I have been using lm-2 innovate and aem. I really could not rely on them.
Fuels run on a stoichiometric system, all fuels have a different stoich value, know your stoich before you use the fuel, this is a pre example when he said race fuels have to b lean... It may not b lean for that particular fuel
I feel for you,,,,your fighting arm chair technicians with ebay parts and shix they install them selves with a pair of pliers,,,I've been at Ford engineering and Fixed opts for 20 years,,,seen it all
Joe, going from 4500 feet ASL (0.06685 Air Density) down to Sea Level (0.07650 Air Density) (a 14.435% increase of air), is this an automatic increase (adding) 14%+/- fuel to compensate for the increase of air?
Interesting, it's consistent with my seat of the pants findings when testing different AFR's on my draw-thru Carb'd turbo sportster. When I would set it so that the wideband read low 11's through the pull, it would dip into the 10's past 5000rpm because of the turbo just pulling more fuel from the carb at high RPM, and the power would just die off hard. Bike had a decent torque but it felt like the timing map pulled 10 degrees up top. When I would lean it out so that it was 12.0 during the pull richening to 11.4-11.7 up top, it felt like it gained 15HP, which would be a similar percentage gain to what you found here.
That gauge reading and probe reading definitely got me cause just had gauge reading different to the probe and had my friends told me the tuner doesn't know what they're doing. But the graph showed no problems !
Love this kind of contents! Keep that tuning contents coming!
Thanks, will do!
Joe Simpson im subscribed and notified! I will watch out for those contents. Followed you on instagram as well! Wish this channel would be successful.
Tests like these always end up with more questions. A variable that would be cool to see added to the mix is more timing set to mbt/boarderline knock with a richer mixture vs a leaner mixture. Just because fuel burn speed can be slowed up with a richer mixture which effects the desired spark timing for MBT. Gasoline tends to have a much narrower peak power mixture range than alcohol based fuels though so on this particular test its probably not enough to change the results to something unexpected. Doing the same test with ethanol and a high powered ignition coil I think might give some interesting results though.
What was notable about your testing was how top end seemed to respond a lot better to a leaner mixture vs the mid range to the point of really extending the powerband. Definitely a cool experiment, digging this kinda content.
yes exactly! i wish i had the time to really do all the testing and stuff id like to do and the way id really like to. its a lot of fun. def. going to learn a lot doing this stuff. i need to put a car together for myself with a more flexible ecu. i wish there were more hours in the day.
Great content. I appreciate your videos. Keep it going.
Thank you!
Thanks for the video, keep them coming.
thanks, will do!
3500 $ motec wideband uses stock LSU bosch OEM sensor.
The gauge itself can make a difference at interpretating the sensor value,but i doubt it's off that much,since they use a bosch LSU too on the AEM.
What is your opinion ?
Does the tail pipe sensor can be fooled by soot,falling off the pipe itself during pulls,knowing it's accumulating there the rest of the time ?
Even though the sensor is the same the controllers themselves play a huge roll in it. You can really tell in sensor life. The motec has CAN output and adjustable 5v output but the biggest thing, and the thing they make it so valuable is that you never have to question it unlike other options. I have 2 or the PLMs. One is set up to use a Bosch sensor and the other is set up for a NTK (software selectable, another huge benefit) and it also has a free air calibration. I think they have come down in price but i haven’t looked.
Either way they are expensive, but they work so good that after buying one i had to get a second one if that helps put it into perspective haha
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest
Ok,thanks.
It's way out of my wallet anyways lol
@@michaelovitch it’s not for everybody, doesn’t make sense to put it in a street car. most capable ecus have proper lambda meters built in now a days or a simple can controller but something like the PLM is more for shop use.
Very nice Joe great video. Some really great info the Dyno is a great too. I always say you still got to read plus even if you are just street tuning a DIY garage setup. The Dyno will get you closer and take guess work out.
TPV Productions yup still pull plugs all the time. But sometimes what the spark plug says and what the power output says can be different. Or you run around in circles for days chasing no difference in power. Plus the dyno is fun haha
On my old 2 stroke bikes I always ended up a little bit rich to get max speeds, it did however required me to "tickle" the throttle a little at the end of the rev range.
Perhaps there is a little bit more compression as the piston speed picks up?
this is good for us that dont understand it all . I like seeing comparisons
Great info thanks for sharing
Can u do a fuel economy one
Keep the tuning content coming!
What does a naturally aspirated SBF like for AFR? 12.8? 13.0?
Sweet video my guy 💪
what if your running an e85 fuel what have you seen with ethanol fuels doing this
great video man you know your stuff
Wow thats a big difference. Very helpful video!
Pretty cool to see the differences huh?
I cant believe 50hp! I changed mine to 11.5 and made a pull last night..butt dyno felt good..and my injector duty cycle was only at 79 apposed to 86 @ 10.6 ish.. the motor is a forged piston stock crank/rods with afr 165 heads S trim so i try to stay on the safe side, but it is intercooled so i do go about 23 degrees timing at 5500 around 8 psi.
The follow-up ignition video never happened? I only found one for a different car.
What sensor do you suggest
The best affordable wideband is from ballanger motorsports
yea Fortuna CA. to Glasgow Montana Dodge 360 3/4 4-speed Holley 480 new Summit carb survived
Очень крутые видео. Спасибо большое. Я очень удивлен малому просмотру. Я любитель настройки своей машины. правил прошивку больше 200 раз наверное за все время. Атмосферный мотор. 92 бензин. Последний раз степень была уже 10.3 и мотор работал без детонации. Кстати мало кто пробовал на малой нагрузке использовать сверх бедную смесь топлива. Смесь беднее 15 горит дольше и угол зажигания снова приходится увеличивать. Причем в отличии от супер богатой смеси, бедная смесь резко начинает терять мощность. Я на частичной нагрузки делал смесь почти 16 к 1. Далее я обеднял смесь ещё чуть больше, находил пропуски воспламенения. Далее я начинал изменять фазу впрыска (угол открытия форсунок относительно коленвала) форсунок. Находил значение оптимальное для бедной смеси. Мотор намного интереснее начинал ехать. Далее возвращал смесь в 16. Получал мотор который едет на 16 почти как на 14.7!! Очень хочется увидеть подобный эксперимент. Так же хочется увидеть разницу в фазе впрыска ( в открытый и закрытый клапан).
Good stuff, Joe.
How about Advanced Ignition Timing Degree, Joe? does it affect horsepower?
Of course it does to an extent but too much and it blows up. I’ve done videos similar to this with timing as well
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest Ok ok, will check the video after this. But do you think if we Advancing The Ignition Timing the AFR will be a bit leaner than before we Advancing the Ignition Timing in the ECU?
@@mnaufalalauddin usually not
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest ok thanks Joe, new subs :D
What high egt mean on diesel at full throtle
I'd like to see how you use steady state for finding MBT, esp on octane limited fuels (e10 pump 91 for example), like what RPM break points, how much load range (low load vs high load) and whether you do it in the higher RPM ranges and loads, or if you just do it to find an approximate MBT at say 4k RPM and then interpolate from there to redline to not risk the motor. Also your thoughts on knock monitors vs det cans, etc. Keep up the great work, I'd like to buy a mainline hub dyno down the road when I have the available cash.
Basically all that you just listed is in the next video i plan to do. Well, it may be broken up into a couple of videos but yea keep an eye out!
I actually filmed the steady state video already, but the sound was all jacked up for some reason it was too awful to use so I’ll have to do it again!
Which brand Vanessa do you use? Thanks for all the info!
Im slowly working my way through all Your videos. Really enjoying them. What sort of AFR do You aim for at higher boost levels like 40psi plus?
Really depends on a lot of factors. Usually pretty different for each one
Great video.
What’s fuel are you running.
What v-band have you found works the best. I have looked around for ones that are deeper so that they aren't as prone to waring when they get welded but haven't had much luck, even with having the clamp tight around the flanges when I weld them. Just came across the channel, you have some cool stuff up here
i get all of my flanges from stainless bro's
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest right on, I'll give them a try next time
love to see an old Mopar small block 340 N/A tuned even tho it's not as advanced i would love to see the numbers on the dyno
Can’t say we get a lot of those through the doors!
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest i know
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest last question i wont bother you anymore for a stock viper gen 5 build what do you use for mods heads and cam .. do you build and make your own ?
Mr. S. Ask away doesn’t bother me. The viper stuff that has been posted on here was all rental stuff so i didn’t have anything to do with the build. All the viper stuff i have personally done has been bolt on supercharger stuff or fabricating some stuff
Awesome content 👍
DC WERX thank you!
Any good alternative to the LSU sensor, cross reference? Ever since I removed my AEM setup from a car it was working in, it doesn't work any more.
Probably useless info to you now but just saw your comment and thought I’d help anyway. For an AEM wideband using LSU 4.9 sensor, I’ve had the best luck with Bosch sensor with Bosch part no. 0 281 004 191 and VW part no. 03L906262Q. Also only activate the gauge/sensor when up to operating temperature. The condensation in the tailpipe will soon kill the sensor and reduce the accuracy.
@@MatthewWillard99 thankyou
interesting! recently i decreased fuel at top end (1 zylinder, 250cc motorbike) and top speed increased significant...
but what about the exhaust temperature?
@@cri1410sti getting up, yes.
What air fuel would you recommend for a mild supercharger?
11.5
Question, I have a WHP knock sensor on my built 2.2L f20b. I'm running on a s300 v3. Can you utilize the knock sensor to fine tune the ecu or do you just turn it off when tuning?
Elias Melendez i don’t use any knock control with s300
What fuel was being used ...going to assume E85 since 12 seem too high for pump
It was 93
Since the boost was so low i could go leaner just to show it going lean doesn’t make as much power as people expect
If you dont mind me asking, what wideband do you use?
C R i S Yap i have a couple of motec plm wideband that are worth their weight in gold. My dyno has a tech edge which has been rock solid. I suggest guys buy the NTK/Ballanger if you want something that’s good quality that isn’t crazy expensive. That is what was in this car that i kept referent to
Joe Simpson thanks man! I looked it up they are just above $300. Thats not bad. Ive had 3 wideband thay I have been using lm-2 innovate and aem. I really could not rely on them.
Great video! Ty
nice. this was hard to find. I'll add data to a power calculator
Fuels run on a stoichiometric system, all fuels have a different stoich value, know your stoich before you use the fuel, this is a pre example when he said race fuels have to b lean... It may not b lean for that particular fuel
Looks at 13% power difference , good to know!
I feel for you,,,,your fighting arm chair technicians with ebay parts and shix they install them selves with a pair of pliers,,,I've been at Ford engineering and Fixed opts for 20 years,,,seen it all
This the car your talkong about. Nice
EM1 Chase yea, this is just on 10lbs boost control turned off, low rpm
@@JoeSimpsonAtTempest i need an agressive tune next time with the css if i fiend rnough for more hp. Ill deal with this setup for everday use
EM1 Chase you need a second car, and some e85 or race fuel. Can’t make much more than you currently make on 93
Lean is mean!
What fuel?
that honda sounds pretty pissed off
Have to watch it ,if u go to rich u can definitely hydrolock and fold ur rods 😳
You would have to be pretty far out in left field to do that haha
So this was the dreaded AND UM video!! LOL!!
There was a bunch of those early on haha
Joe, going from 4500 feet ASL (0.06685 Air Density) down to Sea Level (0.07650 Air Density) (a 14.435% increase of air), is this an automatic increase (adding) 14%+/- fuel to compensate for the increase of air?