If we consider the distinction between the desire for internal order and external order, I imagine this would help us better understand the light sides apparent interest in order (internally) and the dark sides apparent interest in order (externally). Consider the points below: The Jedi, or the light side, were never interested in establishing an external order in terms of galactic governance or otherwise, their goal has always been the cultivation of a personal, internal order; maintaining control over personal emotions, freeing oneself from personal attachments, achieving a calmness over the passions, and to act only in defense of oneself or others and never to achieve ones ends or for reasons of aggression. The dark side of the force, on the other hand, serving as a mirror image for the light side, is deeply engaged in and always aspiring to achieve dominance and control over the external world and its inhabitants. This would appear to be partially a result of the chaos that reigns within their own mind and spirit, where the passions are permitted to dominate their psyche and rule over their conscience and intellectual faculties. The need to satisfy their own ambitions, passions, and maintain a hold over personal and/or physical attachments, combined with the aggressive tendencies cultivated by the dark side, instills the desire among all dark side force wielders to twist the world in a way that satisfies their own wants and apparent needs. This was ultimately Anakin's undoing, and explains his departure from the light. He could not let go of his personal attachment to his mother, Padme, or his then unborn children. The need to control future events, and to order the world in his favor, created a chaotic disorder in his mind compelling him to act in ways he knew were wrong and conflicted with the Jedi way. EVIDENCE: 1) He killed the Sandpeople in revenge for the harm that befell his mother: 2) killed Count Dooku in part due to the loss of his own hand to Dooku in a previous battle (attachment to a hand, funny); 3) participated in the death of Mace Windu to protect the Emperor so he could later save Padme; 4) killed the Jedi because they were also now a threat to the Emperors survival and would challenge the Senate; 5) turned against Kenobi because of jealousy and his belief that Kenobi had turned Padme against him (loss of love); 6) killed the Trade Federation leaders to facilitate an orderly Empire and end any threat to the Empire and those he loved; 7) filled with hate when Kenobi severed three more of his limbs and took Padme from him; 8) Finally, the death of Padme and supposedly his children (at his own hands) sealed his fate as a Sith (loss of love, regret of past actions, his need to bring Padme back via the dark side of the force). Vader's spirit was consumed with chaotic feelings of guilt, regret, loss, hate, and the desire for revenge driving his need for order in the external world and to fulfill his ambition to learn the secrets of the dark side. Upon learning that Luke and Leia were alive, the conflict between his light and dark sides was reborn. He now had the opportunity to right some past wrongs, to save his son and daughter where he could not save Padme. He probably now knew the Emperors claims of the ability to resurrect the dead were also a lie. In the concluding scenes of Return of the Jedi, the orderly Empire and the Emperor himself now threatened Vader's attachment to his own children. The Emperor failed to realize that the very same passions that had once led Vader to the dark side now led him back to the light; his love for his children. This is even more clear when we realize why Kenobi and Yoda are so concerned with Luke's attachment to his friends and his impulsiveness. They feared that the same passions that were the folly of Vader would now be the folly of Luke. And they nearly were. But in the end, Luke's passions and faith in his father proved a force for virtue and light, as the love of Luke restored Vader's goodness in the love of his son. Contrary to the views of the author of this video, I feel this is a very coherent and consistent narrative device that drives the original 6 films, though, it certainly was violated, and horrifically so, in The Last Jedi.
Thanks very much! Very kind of you. I am also very interested in the power of symbolism and hoped this might add to the discussion. If we consider the monastic nature of Kung Fu and virtually every other monastic order I can think of, the focus is always on order of spirit and control over ones own passions, attachments and ambitions. One achieves order of spirit by withdrawing from the physical world, not by seeking to order it. Hence, the Jedi serve solely an advisory and defensive role in the democratic republic seeking only to preserve a realm of physical freedom which is the only society in which one is free to pursue what Aristotle called 'Eudaimonia' or human flourishing. In Socrates and Plato, we find a desire to create a state led by Guardians that would permit peace, prosperity and human flourishing. Imagine the Guardians as Jedi. But in Aristotle, we see a growth in understanding where the Guardians were an impossible dream as the knowledge of the forms was nothing but a noble lie. Therefore, he preferred the conditions that only democracy permitted where Eudaimonia could be pursued by virtually all citizens. Of course, in that time, the system was still sustained by slaves, but perhaps we could consider the droids in Star Wars as the new Helots. Good fun!
Very well said, especially your follow up about eastern spiritual practice and mythology. Very informative and comprehensive. Only thing I'd suggest is reformatting with paragraph and line breaks between separate points/examples, for ease of reading. Its only a shame that such important ideas underpinning the whole mythos of Star Wars aren't easier to communicate; but if they were so simple they wouldn't be so deep and meaningful to so many (except of course in The Last Jedi, which contravenes all of the above). That's why they are told across a saga after all.
You realize this is a comment I wrote in a few minutes during a break at work, not a dissertation. I will, however, revise it to make it more accessible and pleasing to the eyes this evening. Hope you at least found some of the comments interesting.
My single biggest complaint about the new Star Wars was how the writers took Luke, the single most important hero figure of the franchise, and turned him into a nihilist.
Ike Evans - Luke was moderately nihilistic throughout the movie. I was envisioning Luke to take a Benedict Option sort of nihilism, only to return to the world that needed him, but it went totally overboard with nihilism when the tree and the books were burnt, in my opinion.
It was clear from the onset of losing Kilo Ren to the dark side that the world (or galaxy?) needed him. Everything about Luke's character from the original trilogy was to never give up hope. Even when both Obi Won and Yoda (both of whom remained active in saving the galaxy) thought Darth was beyond redemption, Luke was the guy who insisted that he could be saved. None of what we saw with Luke in the Last Jedi made the slightest bit of sense. Throughout the entire movie, he not only failed to accomplish anything (he didn't even train Rey), he... uhhh... died only after a fake lightsaber duel. WTF? Why did the writers do this?
Side note: the books weren't burned. If you look carefully, Rey stole the books before she finally got sick and tired of Luke's self pity. Don't worry, I didn't catch it either. My friends had to point that out to me as well.
Ike Evans, I myself, really like the idea of Luke becoming a nihilist, I think that Luke learning from a mistake is good. Except I don't like how they did it. How does someone go from seeing the light in what most people think is the most irreversibly evil man and going out of his way to save him, to instantly thinking that he should kill his niece after he looks as if he is getting a bit evil.
Ike Evans I disagree about him being a nihilist. Luke believes that his very presence has made things worse for the galaxy, and that he is doing the right thing by going into exile.
Christopher Hickish so you hated it? Thats what that means. I think its a terrible metaphor. If you had a soup full of hair it would be a miserable, awful experience.
Haven't you guys figured it out yet? Since we were so blandly informed in TLJ that the "Force is female," in a kind of deus ex machina explanation for Rey's otherwise inexplicable powers, Rey, being female, is obviously intended to be the personification or embodiment of the force. She is the New Messiah, the darling avatar of the feminist extremists who have hijacked my hometown of Hollywood...Think about it...Messiahs and other such god-like culture heroes need no training.
"Extremists" run around with guns. So just ease up on that overblown rhetoric. It's really funny to see how butt hurt so many guys are that women can actually get the spot light sometimes now, and not just being a love interest character. I do feel that the number of female characters in this movie felt a bit forced, but really, why is male always the default?
Jane Doe: I have no problem with women on a powerful position. The problem is that IN THE NAME OF political correctness you sacrifice artistic value. It would be equally stupid to make a macho-male remake of the classic "Charlie's Angels". The problem with the new SW is that the producers pissed on the fans and the SW legacy. I loved Star Wars since the original episodes. Now a crude political agenda has ruined it. This is not a discussion about women in power, but in the artifical inverting of Natural Law. Biology and bio-chemistry ARE NOT opinions or "social constructs". They are facts. Why do the contemporary female characters in films have to espouse MALE values? Can't they make movies that show strong FEMININE females and show the beauty of femininity? This is cultural marxism at its "finest".
@@Captain_MonsterFart this film is nihilistic trash. The people who like this film are depressed and mentally ill. No respect for the legacy of this great franchise. Rey is pure trash
I felt physically and emotionally sick for three days after watching this movie for exactly the same reasons that you pointed out. The corrupt use of symbols for the political ideology of margin good, center evil is absolutely sickening and undermines the whole mythological structure of Star Wars and the Hero's Journey itself. I ranted and raved about exactly those problems in the movie and, thankfully, most of my friends understood the symbolic and philosophical implications I was speaking of. In the end, this serves as a cautionary tale for me to never corrupt symbolism in my own narratives, to never use it instrumentally for a shallow political or personal message.
Well, satire is not a corruption of symbolism, it's playful use of it that does not aim to undermine core mythological themes, it aims to point and laugh at the stupid and absurd and at the extremes of one polarity or another. I use satire all the time to point out absurdity, contradictions and stupidity in everyday life and love it. Not a comedian (yet, may one day try), but I love doing it, while trying not to be spiteful and resentful at it.
Cannot agree more, if one is a Star Wars fan from childhood and has grown up with its mythology, you understand how pathetic this movie was. Unfortunately, my friends and family didn't get it! It was absolutely crushing to the whole way of the force and everything was destroyed in the 2.5hrs of this movie. Star Wars is dead to me now... after 30yrs of passion following! :(
Do you think that was done as a conscious malevolent effort to propagandize or are the creators so immersed in political thought and ideology that they did it subconsciously
Probably a bit of both, the alt-left brainwash, echochamber of the Hollywood and group think plays a big role, but this particular movie has so many virtue signaling that it couldn't have been all subconsciously done, they literally dismantled 40yrs of Star Wars mythology for a purpose, couldn't have been just a coincidence.
i saw The Last Jedi as a sacrifice of the myth for a post-modern meta criticism. failure, the great teacher I would posit being borrowed by the great playwright samuel beckett "fail better fail faster", killing the past (but not really because nothing matters). Joseph Campbell would cry
Yes and even the great/first postmodern literary authors like john barth were still reiterating the same myth they found in the bible, the iliad, shakespeare, etc.
Yeah that really bothered me too. Like people aren't allowed to leave the resistance? Very Empire. And the end with the kiss and the stupid line just made me cringe.
Besides the point that forcing people to remain on a ship against their will and fight for you is essentially enslavement. It wasn't really a scenario where more personnel was necessarily even a tactical advantage.
@Philip Such ridiculous discipline when everything was hopeless would have been unnecessary if the Resistance Command had it's shit together to begin with. But it was run by women, so what could one expect?
The people who liked this Star Wars - Are all kids, who never grew up with the world of Star Wars. Disney has done this on purpose - They killed off all the old pivotal characters to start fresh - Which is just a full on kick in the face to anyone who grew up with these films! Kathleen Kennedy is a liar, she said to George Lucas, "I will look after your creation!". No, she KILLED IT!
"Kathleen Kennedy is a liar" Yup. Not only did she lie to Lucas and completely disregarded his ideas she also made sure with these hacky directors Abrams and Johnson to ignore criticism particularly that of Hamill's that the story and characters particularly Luke's do not make sense. She has this hyperactive agenda to push and she's using Star Wars to pedal it.
Your comment in the video reminds me of a GK Chesterton quote: "The modern world is not evil; in some ways the modern world is far too good. It is full of wild and wasted virtues. When a religious scheme is shattered, it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful."
Great dismantling, THANK YOU! What I found most disturbing was that this movie (and last one to a certain extent), completely wiped out every Jedi order, nature of force, the Star Wars Universe, all of the lessons learned earlier, the importance of discipline, training and commitment, to some random way of being. In the last movie, it was ridiculous that Rey could just beat Kylo Ren with ZERO training, that's just stupid and against all of the norms of ways of the force taught in the past movies (Anakin at 7yrs old was TOO OLD to be trained for instance)! As a child, what I loved about Star Wars, was Yoda and how wise he was, how smart he was, how much wisdom he had and I always was HUNGRY to learn about what's the new way of Jedi or a lesson that may come in the next movie... NONE OF IT HERE. I was HUNGRY and ANXIOUS to learn "what else is he gonna teach Luke next", it was a mystery worth discovering. Now, Luke was merely a shadow of himself, a loner, a loser, kind of a lost drunk uncle... he basically couldn't teach Rey anything and that absolutely bothered me the most. My childhood hero was crushed into an inconsequential character. I am 100% sure it was mostly to completely wipe out any male (and white) hero from the franchise, and replace it with feminine hero instead. Like for instance, the way Princess Leah somehow pulled herself back into the ship after being blown up was just ridiculous, while Luke couldn't just fight Kylo (who lost to Rey) in person?! Even if that was the goal, I wouldn't have mind it for Rey to be the new Luke, IF she was taught in the same way, trained the same, studied the Jedi and way of the force and learned wisdom from Luke... I think that would have been a great way to pass the torch and continue the franchise with new ways and characters and satisfy SJW types as well... however, this movie absolutely RUINED the WHOLE STAR WARS FRANCHISE, all mythology so far being built via other movies as well as 121 episodes of Clone Wars which was much more in-line with the way of the Jedi, the force than this (even being a cartoon made for kids)! Overall, I so wanted to love the movie, I thought maybe JJ Abrams went off a bit and the actual Luke and Rey re-union and Jedi training off the island will bring things back to normal, but it didn't, it made it a lot worse and I absolutely don't care about the next film as essentially all of the best characters died and there's nothing to look forward to! :(
Most people who run American businesses despise their products customers and employees and are very complacent thinking that there will always be stupid, gullible, ignorant, tasteless scum that will buy their crap, such as GM cars, but then they run out of such stupid people with money and run into trouble as GM did.
Well it was even worse than that. Ep 7 and 8 are poorly written implausible uninspired derivative destructive nonsense. The NR was on the rise, the Empire in retreat, and Luke was training jedi after ep.6.
Gabber Chylde so true. WTH. He should have faught in person, if not, why the hell did he die? They crushed his character. Made him look like an old useless drunk uncle, instead of making him to be the next Obi One. Why not? It was super easy to do that. To kinda pass the torch. Obi one passed it to Luke, now Luke passes to Rey. But NOOOO we can’t do that as that’s too traditional and not SJW BS. This had so much potential, for Luke to train Rey, properly, to teach her ways of the force and Jedi. Then maybe he dies in real fight against Kylo but then in next movie Rey takes revenge. Like comeone. That makes sense. Also killing Stokes was just the dumbest thing ever. I can go on and on and on. Worst ever Star Wars story by a million miles!
The movie is not even able to explain what the FO is, where it came from and what its goals are. There is no world building, so in the end, the movie has no impact, because the general audience does not know why something happens. Its like watching lord of the rings without knowing why frodo must go to mordor.
But explaining one most important plotpoint in a book instead of a movie is just really stupid. Its like Hagrid: Harry, Lord Voldemort wants to kill you and take over the wizard world! Harry; But why Hagrid? Hagrid: Read the fucking book Star Wars is lucky that is has so much action and nostalgia. I guess some people dont even notice this plothole.
6kubik agreed. and for those that say it's a trilogy and you have to watch all 3 movies to get the whole story, that doesn't fly. you gotta give some background material or else alot of the plot won't make sense and many people will lose interest
Except its not the most important plot point at all. As a matter of fact its not even a plot point. As a matter of fact its not even important. Your LOTR comparison is cheap, easy, and inaccurate. Wah I dont like how X is not explained in this movie! That's like not explaining Y in this other movie! Terrible logic. Your complaint about lack of world building in the 8th film of an already fleshed out universe, toppled with the complaint of something not being explained when the final chapter of the story isnt even complete is unfair and it holds no weight.
+ Lexington SteeL How does it hold no weight? Sure it's the eighth film in the franchise, but the events of this trilogy are narratively so far removed from where we were at the end of Return of the Jedi that not explaining the First Order/Snoke, who they/he are/is, what they/he wants, and why/he wants it detracts from our ability to invest in the story at hand. This conflict is not borne of the conflict that seemed to be concluded at the end of RotJ, so the audience has every right to demand to be caught up on just what the hell is happening. Do you really think that one film out of nine or three depending on how you look at it can retroactively make this current trilogy make sense? Has any other trilogy/saga in the history of trilogies/sagas EVER worked that way?
I like your ideas. When I saw the first trailer for the Last Jedi and Luke said that the Jedi had to end I was a little excited. Everything in Canon(books, comics, shows, movies) was pointing to the formation of the "Gray Jedi." Gray Jedi don't deny their emotions and passions. Here is the Legends mantra of the Gray Jedi: "There must be both dark and light. I will do what I must to keep the balance, as the balance is what holds all life. There is no good without evil, but evil must not be allowed to flourish. There is passion, yet peace; serenity, yet emotion; chaos, yet order. I am a wielder of the flame; a champion of balance. I am a guardian of life. I am a Gray Jedi." This is such a dramatic change in the way the Jedi operate. The Jedi weren't able to cope with strong emotions because they chose to neglect them. Whenever they came in contact with dark side artifacts they were overcome by the emotions that were being forced on them and they almost always fell to the dark side. To the Gray Jedi there is only the Force. They use "Dark Side" powers but are not evil. The reason Dark Side orders like the Sith existed was because there had to be balance to the force. If the Jedi took this approach a group like the Sith would not rise.
Great explanation of TLJ, and Star Wars in general. Just last week watched Spirited Away with my kids for the first time (on your recommendation), they loved it!
Bottomline is people watch movies for entertainment, a way to forget about their troubles for a few hours. When we can't even get that anymore from a movie it's time to stop going to watch them. Read a book, spend time with a loved one, or take a walk in nature. Spend quality time enjoying your life. Don't let these corporate companies like Disney brainwash you and your children. It's time to stop going to movie theaters folks.
That's not why people watch movies and it has never been why people viewed plays or art. They view them in order to find deeper meaning, whether they know it or not. That is why films like this are so offensive- the deeper meaning they convey is incorrect. It simply isn't truth. It's shallow pandering to weak, cowardly, immature fantasy.
I have 3 kids under the age of 4, so I don't get out to the movies too often. The only movie I've seen in the theater in the last year was TLJ. Jesus, what a waste of babysitter time. Good thing the babysitters were my parents and I didn't have to pay for it.
Whats PC? I diverse cast? Female leads? 1. Female leads have always been a thing in Star Wars 2. The lack of diversity in the OT was a common criticism, mainly because it clashes with attempts at world building. Any writer who gives advice on world building will tell you this.
I liked a lot of your points, but there are some things going on in the characters stories I think you overlooked. For one thing, you mentioned Finn as having overcome his cowardice in his final act of self-sacrifice that was stopped by Rose. However, that wasn't the only part of his development. Finn had a strong resentment and hatred for the First Order. More than anything, he wanted to see them fail and suffer. Remember Finn's attitude on Canto Bight? "It was worth it tok make these awful people suffer!" Then Rose let's free the fathier and says "NOW it's worth it." Finn still hadn't got that his heart wasn't in the right place, and he was about to sacrifice himself on Crait NOT for the Resistance and the people you said he loved behind the base doors, but to do whatever he could to guarantee a suffering loss by the First Order. "I won't let them win!" He WAS fighting what he hated, not saving what he loved. That's why Rose stopped him to remind him again, and THAT realization after was the culmination of his development in this story, that maybe what he was looking for all along since the beginning of The Force Awakens ("I was raised to fight, but now I've got nothing to fight for") actually existed, and here was now something he could really fight FOR, instead of just hating the First Order and wanting to see them suffer.
It is very important to understand how societal values are reflected in media at the time. This video does a good job of succinctly highlighting the pervasive presence of a female-driven SJW sort of inverted hierarchy that is still gaining so much momentum.
Everyone on the net gets Mary Sue slightly wrong. It’s not all about what she can do physically. That’s actually a small part of it. It’s more about how other characters treat her and view her. The original Mary Sue was not a fighter. Mostly loved by Spock, Kirk and McCoy. But of course what Rey does is part of it. Anyway, very interesting video.
You're comments on Rey being the quintessentially Millenial hero story are spot on, and put words to what I have been thinking. I find it a sad testament that 30 years ago Disney could produce absolute masterpieces like the Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast. Now they are producing Post-Modern claptrap like Frozen and Moana. And there seems to be an incredible demand for propaganda nowadays :*(
Moana isn’t post modern, that movie is all about respecting the past and your elders as well as working with your old heroes while bringing them down to earth on your level. It’s not like Maui gets replaced, he just makes Moana a part of him due to how they both help each other and work together as a team. Compare that to Little Mermaid, where Ariel causes a problem, eventually puts her dad and home in real danger, doesn’t really fix the problem herself she just needs the prince to do it for her and by the end Ariel gets what she wants without really earning it, that’s pretty liberal right there.
@@jman2856 correct. The biggest source of the problem is in Lucasfilm itself. Rian Johnson, the director of TLJ, is a good friend and associate of Kathleen Kennedy, the one in charge of Lucasfilm. He appealed to her and they both did their own thing with it. I don't think TFA was a bad movie, in fact I quite enjoyed a lot of it. The problems with certain characters, Rey in particular, stem from a particular and deliberate storytelling device JJ Abrams likes to use where he sets up the pieces on the board and leaves a lot of mystery about them to get people to come back, it's just that Johnson didn't do much with what was set up and in some instances threw it out altogether. The Last Jedi, although I did greatly enjoy certain parts of the movie, is deeply flawed because of the vision of the director and executive producer and head of Lucasfilm who aligns with his ideological vision.
The strange inversion of impulsive anger being on the same side as oppressive order... Logic and discipline on the same side as passionate freedom and guerrilla warfare... I hadn’t even seen that! Thank you. This is wonderfully useful.
Obviously not at that point. When the ships were being fueled, that would have been the opportune moment. And any time before that would have worked too.
Jonathan Pageau, your comments are among the more perspicacious/insightful and enlightened that I have heard...A well balanced critique, containing the fascinating concept of an inverted order in story telling, mainly the "revolutionary" nature of fan fiction. Thank you.
Leaving the cinema after Force Awakens I was on a high. On leaving The Last Jedi i felt like taking a hot shower and wiping the experience from mt mind.
Rich Valentine This is like what I went through. I walked out of the theater actually in shock. I have no other way to explain it. This isn't Star Wars. That reaction works with certain genres, not Star Wars. I like the idea of the soup with hair, but I felt it was more like eating really great cookies. You get that first bite and it's awesome, but before you get the satisfaction of having that last bite, someone comes along and takes your cookie. Over and over. You never get that last crumb satisfaction from this movie. So frustrating. One last thing about the inversion here, comparing the first two trilogies with this one. The emphasis on training, with order and releasing attachments, Kylo Ren is still on the path of a Jedi. Take away the evil elements, and you could place Yoda is Snokes place and it would work. Rey is not learning these lessons. She is more on the path to darkness than Kylo.
It was nonsense even then. Ep 7 and 8 are poorly written implausible uninspired derivative destructive nonsense. The NR was on the rise, the Empire in retreat, and Luke was training jedi after ep.6.
Rich Valentine The farce awakens was just a remake -.- The last joke, was also a remake, the problem is that it added sjw which were not that strong in The farce awakens. At the end, both lame, unoriginal films.
I don't know if this matters, but in the cinematic canon there was no "Light Side" of the force, until the new movies. Before it was just "The Force" and "The Dark Side". But audiences of the older movies automatically overlayed their own notions of a Light/Dark dichotomy in the force, because of the obvious Good vs Evil character split. In other works (both pre- and post-Disney), the Light/Dark divide has existed for a long time, and the direction that more recent works seem to be moving in is the idea that Light is too Ordered, and Dark is too Chaotic. That the solution is to walk a line in the middle, sometimes called "Gray Jedi". In the prequel movies, we see a highly ordered Jedi tradition. However, the Heroes are the troublemakers, Qui-Gon and Obi-wan, who bend the rules of their monastic order as they deem necessary. They are the ones who get sent away to the backwaters of the galaxy to mediate trade disputes, because keeping them around the temple is too much trouble. Qui-Gon dies in the end, but lives on as a ghostly echo ("force ghost"), something that canonically hadn't happened for centuries. Obi-Wan tries (and fails) to guide Anakin. Far from the order of the temple, Anakin drifts even further into chaos than Qui-Gon had, and becomes subsumed by it. He kills the faceless Sand People, then he escalates to killing other Jedi, children and his pregnant lover. Finally, he tries to kill his Mentor. He fails, and becomes a nigh-emotionless machine as a result. Obi-Wan flees from his failure, seeking solitude in the desert and a life of watching guard over Anakin's son. In the transition to the Original Trilogy, Darth Vader is now cold and ordered. His only emotion is anger, and even that is ice compared to Anakin's earlier fire. Darth Vader obeys orders, but doesn't hesitate to casually kill his own subordinates who get in his way. He is still undeniably a villain, but he is a self-ordered monster, and closer to the Jedi discipline than Anakin was. When Darth Vader finally dies (after a brief change-of-heart), he becomes a force ghost. Obi-Wan practically leaps at the opportunity to impart some brief bit of wisdom and Jedi training to young Luke, despite Luke being completely unfit for training by the old Jedi standards. Even before they reach Alderaan, he is teaching Luke how to wield a lightsaber and reach out with his feelings. And once it becomes clear that Vader is on the Death Star, he seeks him out and draws him into a confrontation. In many ways this is characteristic of how Obi-Wan has always been, but it means in 30 years of reflection he hasn't fallen back to the ways of the old Jedi order. And when he dies, he also ascends as a force ghost. Yoda, one of the Masters of the old Jedi religion, has gone from the ordered city world and temple life, to living as a solitary hermit completely surrounded by mother nature. And he only needs gentle prodding from Obi-Wan's ghost in order to take up training Luke. It's clear that he wants to train Luke, and is just fishing for excuses not to. Far from the high order he once embodied, he is a crazy old loon who lives in a mud hut. In the prequels, Yoda's "awesome" moments are when he is commanding soldiers or dueling villains. In the Original Trilogy, it's when he's training Luke how to overcome his fears and self-doubts. Yoda's exile taught him something that made him different than who he was. And when he died, he too became a force ghost. The proposition here, is that becoming a Force Ghost is a sort of "ascension to a higher purpose" that only happens to Jedi who are *balanced* in the Force. The old Jedi were too ordered, and the Dark Side were too chaotic, so none of them ever manifested to the higher form. And now we arrive at Luke Skywalker. In the original trilogy, he is trained by Obi-Wan and Yoda to be a "Jedi", but he is much more connected to his feelings than the earlier teachings. He feels a strong connection to "good", and is a driving beacon of hope for the entire Rebellion. He alone believed that Darth Vader could be turned back to good, and he was correct. But in the new movies, he grew older and more jaded. When he tried to replicate something like the old Jedi order, it failed, and created the monster Kylo Ren, not unlike Anakin had become. So instead he sought out the most ancient of Jedi teachings, going back to the very roots of the religion. The Light/Dark dichotomy that he expresses to Rey is much more in-line with this "grey Jedi" philosophy, and Luke seems to suggest that this is what he learned in coming to the sight of the oldest Jedi temple. But despite this new knowledge, he has cut himself off from the force (and, by extension, from Life). Whereas Yoda lived in solitude surrounded by life and connected to the force, Luke had abandoned it. Luke hasn't found balance, he has removed the scales completely. Luke tries to pass this information on to Rey, to show her that the answer is neither Light nor Dark, but Balance. Instead, she sees only "I can turn Kylo back to the Light", while Kylo is only interested in turning Rey to the Dark. In Force Awakens, we see that she is enamored of the old stories about the rebellion against the empire, and the Heroes who did it. Like Kylo worshiping a parody of Darth Vader, Rey takes on the task of trying to turn him as Luke had turned Vader. But both of them are trying to replicate the stories without learning the lessons that those people had actually learned. Luke, distraught that his newfound understanding was insufficient, decides to burn it to the ground. Everything he had understood wasn't enough to prevent Ben Solo from becoming Kylo Ren, and this new notion of seeking Balance in the Force wasn't enough to set Rey straight (or so he thought). He is experiencing psychological disintegration, adrift and unsure of anything. But before he can destroy the foundation of his worldview, Yoda beats him to the punch. Yoda *saves* Luke from actually committing the final act of destruction. It's not about burning down the ancient ways, but preventing Luke from being the one who does it. Furthermore, we see later that the books didn't burn anyways, because Rey had them. Surely Yoda was aware of this when he burned down the temple. So we see that Yoda is still the master, and Luke still the student with lessons to learn. With renewed purpose and belief, Luke returns to the Force, and in the end we see him face Kylo Ren just as Obi-Wan had faced Darth Vader. And just as that encounter had ended, so too did Luke die by fading away. We don't know yet if he will become a Force Ghost. We don't know if he was balanced enough in the end to have reached that place. But since Obi-Wan and Yoda both faded away in death and became ghosts later, I think we will see Ghost!Luke in Episode 9. I don't entirely know if I made any kind of coherent point in this post. I think I spent too long writing it in the wee hours of the morning.
There is nothing wrong with occasional escapist entertainment crap, as long as it is escapist and entertainment. This turd of a bunch of pictures and sounds strung together is neither escapist nor is it entertainment.
So just to make sure you're aware that means. No Marvel. No Star Wars. No Pixar. No Fox. No ABC. No ESPN. No Touchstone pictures. No A&E. No History Channel. So umm good luck with that.
8:00 there is a sort of explanation in the fact that she does not fear the dark side. Like at all, as Luke said. This trilogy seems to be attempting to merge the two sides of the force, the male and female aspects. She has no idea what she is doing but she manages to do it anyway, indicating that maybe she isn't the one doing it at all. Like she seems surprised that the rocks moved. If Luke can project from that distance and Yoda can cause lighting strikes post-death, and Snokes isn't the one causing Rey and Kylo to be having visions, some other force may be at play. Her vision I think says a lot, though I can't verbalize exactly what.
I've been watching your videos for some time now. Finally signed up to be a patreon member today! (Been waiting eagerly for your take on 'Last Jedi'). Thank you for all your great content on symbolism, Johnathan. Keep it up!
I was confused by Rose's statement only in that she very well could have killed herself in saving Finn...she almost did...and then a whole lot of the people they loved were killed because of her actions. It's irrational. I was quite disturbed that Rose thought it was necessary to free the animals but leave the children in slavery (but hey, she did give a kid a rebel secret decoder ring! Why did I think about A Christmas Story and the Little Orphan Annie Decoder device that was just another advertisement?). It also seemed like they'd use some new force power to get someone out of a jam. I'd say it was Deus ex Machina, but the Force is no Deus. Maybe it's Disney Ex Machina. Simple military order in the Rebel ranks would have prevented much of the problems between Poe and Holdo. What admiral doesn't share the plans with the junior officers? They had just witnessed most of their high officers obliterated in a single attack. If something like that had happened again and Holdo was killed, how would they have been able to implement any plan that was in place? The whole male female dynamic was condescending at best and insulting at worst. What a mess! (and just a petty complaint: Poe was a Commander - a naval rank equivalent to Major, I believe. He was then busted to captain, but if they are using the naval ranks, then becoming a captain would be a promotion, not a demotion. He should have been a major busted to captain or a commander busted down to a lieutenant or lieutenant commander. I'm not even a big military buff and I caught that oddity. This movie lost me when Leia flew in space. After that everything was downhill... Just ranting...not making any cogent points about the movie..just ranting away.
That cave sequence was inverted. Usually it''s the masculine hero that goes into darkness and bring backs something of value. Interestingly, she goes down into the darkness and brings nothing back. Funny how it works out that she's unable to bring back absolutely zero value. No wonder I found it so distasteful and unfulfilling. As the instinctual rule I would argue tend towards females being born with inherent value, only to see it diminish with time. I guess it does make sense why the cave scene played out the way it did.
Go watch he film again you might spot deeper meaning to how things play out. In Luke's cave scene and Ray's cave scene they both are confronted by what they fear the most, what is holding them back the most. For Luke it's fear of turning to the dark side. For Rey it's being alone, that are parents are truly gone and being responsible for own future. In both cases it's not clear right away what they take away from the experience. Rey's narration in the scene is actually her replaying it to Kylo/Ben about the experience during the Force connection right after, and the Force bond that has been forged with Kylo/Ben she has a vision that a redeemed Ben is the saviour rather than herself. Later at end of the throne scene Kylo has seemingly fulfilled her vision of him turning, but then in twist Kylo's offer his hand to Rey with an offer to lead the First Order together. He even uses her family issues to try manipulate her, as foreshadowed by the cave scene. However, she rejects this offer and she complete's the lesson, she turns her back on the dark side as Luke did, and returns to help her friends. By the end of the film she has passed her trial, she stops looking back to her past and her parents, she rejects the dark side, she finally accepts her own responsibilities and what she can and needs to contribute. For Luke in the Return of the Jedi his cave lesson was only complete when he rejected the darkside in the throne room battle and threw away his lightsaber.
I didn't really think about this before, but as you kinda mentioned: The light and the dark side of the force does not really correspond to Yin and Yang, or Chaos and Order. More to 'feelings' like anger/fear vs tranquility and hate vs love, but the dark side thereby obviously contains both chaos and order, and the light side also contains both.
I reject the idea of getting rid of tradition, history, lineage, and even priviledge. Note that hard core liberals do not value order and are overly inclined to subvert and toss aside social conventions. They are too high in openness and too low in conscientiousness to govern or even discipline themselves effectively.
Great video. I found myself agreeing with most of what you said. I enjoyed _The Last Jedi,_ for the most part, but I felt that the movie was always going out of its way to belittle the fans for caring about the history and traditions of the series, and the so-called “Legacy characters” from the original trilogy. One small correction I’d like to make, though: Darth Vader was not part of the Empire’s formal command structure, so he was separate from the bureaucratic nightmare of the Empire.
I actually loved TLJ ( I admit that I cringed a few time during the film but not enough to spoil it ) and I didn't understood why people were so split about it , but now I do . It's really anjoyable to hear your point of view because it's constructed , you have argument and you don't just say " It's a crappy film" and you're not making fun of thos who liked it . ps: sorry about my english , it's not my first language
Oh my God it just hit me. The reason I hate Rey as a female lead is because she's androgynous looking. It's all a Freudian androgynous wish-fulfillment, that the feminine could manage the masculine, that there no longer needs to be these mutable bodily bounds preventing us from reaching a whole within one person. Just as they throw out the limitations of existence as a single sex, they throw out the limitations of the character-- she can do everything, and has no flaws. Just as in the movie, the only thing preventing this theoretical dream of androgyny is the "oppressive structure", keeping us in the "prison" of our gender roles, since, according to their thought, body and experience don't matter, only desire. OH MY GOD SHE IS HER OWN ORIGIN, she gives birth to herself! Another wish of androgyny, that one person could be their own parents, as both roles. I wonder if the name Rey could be interpreted using both masculine and feminine symbolism, like 'Ray' for (ray of) light and consciousness, and something else.
In Final Fantasy 13 they based the female main character's design on an actual androgynous person, said main character is also without fault and is a super hero.
Yes yes, that in general. I'm not convinced "womb envy" is the right term, and the motives for the development of the other side of that theory (feminism) are questionable, but I do think that the reverse is as plausible: that a young boy find envy in the idea of being a mother, and is annoyed that reality won't let them be one. I mean, kids will be jealous of a damn piece of colored paper so it's not absurd to think that a boy could be jealous of all sorts of aspects that he lacks but sees in girls. There's a great book on this called Sex and Fantasy by Robert May. Though it's possible that the cultural phenomenon could be understood as a one sided female-to-maleness, I think it's more accurate to see things as a dream of androgyny where either sex can be the other, and a single person can embody both. Let's not forget that there's plenty to envy of being a woman, and plenty for them to be grateful, glad, perhaps even proud about, i.e. creating life. I read the other day in Midsummer Night's Dream a great analogy for sex roles: vines wrapped around an elm tree. The tree provides support for the vines, the vines provide _fruit_
Hmmm that's interesting. I have seen references to young female characters as being 'like sunshine' (Russian term for endearment for women: солнечка, or "little sun"/starling) so maybe the image of the Sun is in fact an ambiguous one that comes out in her name.
what I disliked too was the scene of Fynn describing the destruction in the casino as worthwhile and the absolute cuteification of nature - i mean not even the supposed ice planet kills you any more (that you would have to cut open an animal to keep yourself warm), it's a salt planet now
The view that one will win by saving those we love over destroying those we hate is clearly a feministic view i.e., more nurturing, defensive, (seemingly) safe, unwilling to risk. This is a clear rebuttal to the more masculine view of aggressively standing up to and even striking out to destroy the enemy, which is definitely a higher risk option and may result in more bloodshed (at the start), but also more likely to actually save those that one loves. I recall this being mentioned (by a woman writer, but can't recall her name now) who proposed a thesis that if men were not willing to 'strike out' (in business, exploration, war, etc.) we'd all still live in caves and die early deaths. She argued that if women were in charge, the latter would be our result, whereas (as messy and often badly done) men being in charge will result in thriving civilizations that offer more opportunity to succeed and more likely open the door to reformist movements that will soften the rough edges and enhance liberty and a reasonable level of equality among its populace.
The conflict between 'saving those we love' against 'destroying those we hate' is an integral motif to star wars. The motivations and conflict of Anakin Skywalker in the prequel trilogy can be described and represented in this way. All the same, Luke Skywalker's signature decision to avoid destroying Darth Vader or the Emperor out of hatred or with aggression, but instead to put faith in the good of his father, as an expression of familial faith or love has been the icon of what we as an audience understand to be the greatest virtues of the 'light side'. The entire cross-generational skywalker arc of the original 6 movies is dependent upon this idea. I won't disagree that the scene in last jedi was bad, and the relationship between the characters was unsatisfying, but don't for a moment pretend that this is somehow new, or somehow different than what we've had for decades. Your prejudice against things you label as 'feminist' not withstanding.
You know that last scene with rose would have at least been bearable if she had just said something along the lines of "we've already lost too many people" or to be more personal "I can't lose you too" It would still be cheesy and kind of cringy and waste what could have been an amazing end to Finn's character, but it would at least be logical.
I suspect looking at the Force symbolism Kabbalistically makes a lot more sense. The dark side being ruled by Thagirion, which means the disputers, the painful movers, and the demons called the Zomiel are attributed to it, great black giants that are always working against each other. Meanwhile the positive aspect, Tiferet is the sephirah of harmony, and the balance of different forces, which in particular balances the giving powers of Chesed, Loving kindness, with the restaining power of Geburah, restraint. Implicit in the idea of balancing and synthesis is also the idea of stress and strain, and the swinging backwards and forth between the different forces. Chesed and Geburah often work against each other, and the pendulum must be allowed to swing between them. If the pendulum is forced to stay still, in the middle, due to an excess of Tiferet, then undue stress and pain is felt, as these forces are not given room to breathe. Therefore Tiferet, beauty, becomes Thagirion, the disputers. Mostly stolen from Wikipedia, because I'm lazy.
To try and justify the very ordered structure of the Empire: it is my understanding (although I have not read the book) that Plato's Republic talks about how a society dominated by its passions (a democracy) will lead to the rise of a tyrant, if only some demagogue promises to satisfy everyone's passion. Maybe that is the relation between the Dark Side (passions) and the Empire (tirany)
This was an exceptional video essay critique of the Star Wars universe and its evolution. You clearly explained it's many contradictions without being overtly critical or negative. Thank you Jonathan. I'm excited to watch your other videos. Subscribed!
Thanks to listening to Jordan Peterson talk about Pinocchio, I recognised the symbology of when Rey blasted a hole in the Jedi temple wall. It's like when Pinocchio uses fire to escape the whale's belly.
Thank you for such a well-spoken and articulate video! I enjoyed listening to it and your explanation about the deconstruction of the saga. The lack of training, the lack of a mentor (and the need for a mentor), the "democratic" idea that the Force is for everyone, no need for family or origin stories, and the nagging demand to be "protected" from tyranny rather than fight it on the offense...it just broke down everything people loved about Star Wars in the first place. I remember watching Rey's trip into the cave showing just endless mirrors of herself and thinking it was a symbol of narcissism.
Consciously or unconsciously the left understood that it is through story that it can have the largest and most significant impact. Fighting myth in its own lair, the domain of story. Creatively oriented individuals who oppose the radical social justice doctrines that are currently shoved down audience’s throats worldwide should really make the effort, as writers, filmmakers, graphic novel creators, (basically ‘story weavers’ in general) to lay the foundations for an alternative to the radical inversion that is currently underway. I also believe that it very likely that a whole new market is soon going to emerge for a new breed of more traditionally and archetypically themed stories. After all, about fifty percent of us are getting really tired of constantly being fed leftist 'Crypto-neomarxist' propaganda everywhere we turn.
Right. I don't like this marxist, post-modernist, deconstructing, pc sjw bs. Notice that the movie itself attacks the very ideas of value, purpose, meaning, attachment, curiousity, history, legacy, growth etc.
The dichotomy of the light and dark side of the force, at least when it comes to jedi and sith, is more about pasions like hate, rage, etc. The jedi seek order and temperance. The jedi in their search of balance (order) are defeated and the empire rises (too much order). Thats why luke wins in the 6th episode, because he is in between, he wins the fight using the rage, but he has the peace of mind to resist the totalitarian rule of the empire and bring his father around. This is also seen in the color of their lightsabers,blue for jedi, red for sith, but Qui-Gon Jinn (called a gray jedi) and luke have green wich are not a mix of red and blue, but is the third primary color, meaning a third way. The dark tones in the imagery of the emperor is because we are watching the movie from the point of view of the rebels, we dont know how the empire shows itself to their people, since we dont see any of the planets they rule. Still TLJ and TFA have deeper problems with tthe plot that are never explained, like how the resistance is so small and the 1st order so big if the republic has been in power for 30 years.
Although I agree with your very insightful analysis. I can also imagine a scenario in which Luke discards the ancient tradition of the Jedi tradition in a way that's similar to the ending of the Buddhist classic "Monkey: Journey to the West." Basically, the heroes of that tale embark on an arduous quest to retrieve sacred ancient Buddhist scriptures only to discover in the end that the scrolls are blank. I can see Luke coming to a similar conclusion about the Jedi tradition, only not in the nihilistic way portrayed in "Last Jedi" but in the way "Monkey" conveys that the experiential aspect of the religion is perhaps more crucial the written tradition. I could also imagine this new insight influencing how Luke and Rey work together in a complementary way during the training in which Luke re-experiences the Force manifested in a new way through her (which reinvigorates his heroic journey) and she learns from him how to delve into and exert some discipline on this new manifestation (which gives her focus and purpose). Of course, I think your analysis captures how the movie didn't do that and chose instead to push a more postmodernist view. The franchise as well as fans of the movie are the spiritually poorer for it.
1. The Empire Strikes Back 2. Star Wars 3. Return of the Jedi/Rogue One/Force Awakens 4. Revenge of the Sith 5. Episode I 6. Attack of the Clones 7. Ewoks: The Battle for Endor 8. Star Wars Holiday Special 9. Ewoks: Caravan of Courage 10. The Last Jedi
1. The Empire Strikes Back 2. Star Wars 3. Return of the Jedi 4. Revenge of the Sith 5. Episode I 6. Attack of the Clones There are no more Star Wars films
1. The Empire Strikes Back 2. Star Wars 3. Return of the Jedi 4. Revenge of the Sith 5. Episode I 6. Attack of the Clones 7. Ewoks: The Battle for Endor 8. Star Wars Holiday Special 9. Ewoks: Caravan of Courage 10. The Force Awakens/Rogue One 11. The Last Jedi
Very well 'dismantled'. Some of your points, especially those about too much order and too much light, are also why I like the prequels most: They portray Anakin sort of as a 'Snowflake' brittle and unique. He goes down a path very he is told he is special and therefore demands too much, and when he is rejected the rank of master he turns to the dark side for support. Because he also thinks he "can do the job of the king better than him", so to say.
No buddy, it needs more than that. This is the age of the well-cracfted/educated/well-measured criticisms, otherwise you'll be labelled as a "insert tarnishing label here" on the public forum in order to dismiss your experience and existence.
Oscar Geronimo, unfortunately we live in a time of sound bites; that most want information condensed for easier consumption because they may not want to give up the time to delve into the reasoning behind the quick assessment. George Orwell predicted this sort of thing in “1984”; that we just need or want to know is if something was good, somewhat good/bad, or that it sucked, so that they don’t waste their time on it. But since you feel it needs more, I’ll say this - “it sucked balls”.
Thank you for your analysis. I think you have many key presuppositions wrong though. #1) The Empire in the original trilogy does not represent order. Order is represented through the Jedi (Obiwan and Yoda) and in the final act of Return of the Jedi as Luke. Darth Vader also represents order as well through his whole arc but you must divorce Vader from the Empire. Vader (order) is USED by the Empire but they arent its manifestation. The reason you are having a hard time making sense of the Empire is because its actually a Tower of Babel story. The Empire IS The Tower of Babel. It is authoritarian, collectivist and is man who has forsaken his religious roots (See the exchanges between Vader and the generals, Vader operates outside of the Empire in many ways). It is rationality without morals, governance without purpose and might without wisdom. #2) The First Order in the new trilogy is actually social justice. It is not masculinity and order per se, it is the animus of the female. The reason all the males in the First Order and incompetent is because femininity is trying to be masculine and being incompetent at doing so. (I would also add all the female officers in the resistance are incompetent as well) Look at the whole film as the inner projection of social justice ideology. Kathleen Kennedy and the movement she is trying to instill forsakes the true path of the individual, regardless of the yin/yang (masculine/feminine) conceptual framework and becomes its own Tower of Babel. The original series is the internal reflection of the individual itself represented through the twins of Luke and Leia. The new series is the internal reflection of neo-marxist post modernism (a false order, a false idol) and will not be timeless, grow old and be forgotten like the Matrix sequels.
On your point about "the animus of the female", understand that there is an anima, and an animus. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus) When you say animus of the female, it is unclear as to whether or not you are talking about the female equivalent to the animus (the anima), or about the woman's inner masculine personality (animus). Could you clarify?
Note that the feminists despise the feminine and wish women were like and would replace men while at the same time deriding true masculinity as being toxic (reckless, destructive, oppressive, predatory and the like). Also note that the jedi were also collectivist and repressed and ignored the emotional needs of individuals.
I’m watching this again 2 years later. Spot on. What an awful mess we have made allowing a utopian imaginative world manifest into real life. Order can’t come out of chaos. Chaos just needs to run out of gas.
I've said it before and feel even more strongly after seeing The Last Jedi. Star Wars is a poorly written story, it is a mess just like our culture. A good story helps people move forward in their own reality but in contrast Star Wars is sloppy and confusing.
It felt empty to me. I enjoyed watching it, but after it ended nothing lingered. After New-Years I saw "The Worthy" and it's now one of my all time favorite movies (up there with The Big Lebowski and Repo Man). Just throwing it out there. It really blew my mind! :-D
Didn't used to be. You know, I don't think I've ever written that phrase out before now, and now that I look at it, I'm not sure that it makes grammatical sense.
There really isnt anything deep. This movie is made for children, the test audiences were 10 year olds. This explains all the plotholes, the kids wouldnt notice or care. This explains the buffoon villains. This explains all the cutesy creatures, max xmas profit in merch. This explains the childish jokes. This explains why Leia and Holdo acted like soccer moms instead of realistic military leaders. THIS EXPLAINS CANTO BIGHT: The sequence is there to introduce the wish fulfillment audience analogues, the slave kids. The kid with unexplained force powers in particular, placed at the very end, would make the kid audience jump with ecstasy. Disney, turning Star Wars into Frozen.
The reversals of the Apollonian/Dionysian conflict in Star Wars is a very interesting aspect of the films, and one of the strange bits that throws up cognitive dissonance. Personally, I have a very hard time with the character of Rey. On the one hand, yes, she is a perfect infallible character... on the other, she follows a feminine path towards maturity, one VERY different than the male path. She does not need to train, or face trials to "become a man/jedi" the way Luke does, because that is not how girls mature... it is by the very decree of nature, of enough time having passed, that girls become women, and so it is with Rey: there is no journey to be had... she is more prop or MacGuffin than a character because of it. The same is true with Leia in the original trilogy, and with Padme in the prequels, though less notable because they *aren't the main characters*. I prefer this to the "man with tits" trope, but it still leaves me with a character devoid of any arc. It's only Luke, Finn, Poe, and yes, even Kylo Ren who get to mature. Han Solo had more of a character arc in The Force Awakens then Rey did, because she is nothing but a plot device... something for the men to fight over. The fact Mary Sue characters follow the feminine path to maturity makes me suspect that it has less to do with our "fantasizing" or our world being upside down, and more to do with the increasing prevalence of women who are able to tell their stories (though this itself could be used as evidence of an upside down world). The harlequin romance novel whose female lead is *not* a Mary Sue are few and far between.
One More MGTOW Interesting comment, thanks. I had no problems with her character in TFA, that was her arc there. I lost interest in her character in TLJ. Its a shame because i was interested how they'd portray a girl on the hero's journey.
There is more to being a mother than giving birth, and so much of the breakdown today is because the passing of knowledge of what it is to be a good mother (and father) has been massively distrupted. This is something that also effects animals right down to rats.
nektulosnewbie Very true, and this is something that the SJWs are actively renouncing. They believe all of us women are naturally born to be IRL Mary Sues if only men weren't "holding us down". It's stupid and dangerous. I've seen even in animals how much the knowledge of proper parenting can affect the development of babies (except of course with animals like fish and amphibians, for instance). Marmoset society is a matriarchy, BUT fathers are crucial to the success of the babies. Wolf society is a patriarchy, BUT mothers are crucial to the success of the babies. And both parents need to watch and learn from their own parents and grandparents. There's this insidious belief now that just existing, especially if you're a "woman of color" like I am, makes our "lived experience" sufficient for success -- if only "They" (the Big Bad Cis White Hetero Men) weren't "oppressing us". That's why feminists like Rian Johnson don't see any reason to honor Rey with a heroic character arc, and why he takes such delight in destroying Luke. Luke was always a hero for me since I was a child, and it never once mattered that he was a White man. He was a character who grew into our hearts and imaginations because of the quality of his character.
The thing that is really insidious about this is that if you raise the next generation of women to believe it, you set them up for a lifetime of failure which "confirms" their belief that they are oppressed victims. So, rather than empowering women and making them full fledged members of society (an absolutely desirable goal supported by classic liberalism and humanism), the goal becomes preserving the resistance movement itself by perpetuating injustices to maintain the unearned political power that the leaders of the movement crave. All of this at the expense of the long term welfare of women and minorities (men too, so in fact everyone), which is utterly evil. There is no doubt that this is happening, whether by accident or design. There is a strong push to regard achievement as unearned privilege and decry knowledge, competency, understanding as "masculine" and oppressive. Examples: bit.ly/2r0EQZp bit.ly/2DrzjOaz bit.ly/2D6xARe
James Justice League has plenty of flaws, but it's a much better movie than TLJ. Audience scores have always been important it's just convenient for people like you to act like they weren't because you're brainwashed and disliking a obvious propaganda piece goes against how you've been told to think.
James Fontana I've always paid more attention to audience score if I'm deciding to watch a movie. Also, Disney has tried to bully large news organizations that gave bad reviews by banning their employees from all Disney owned events (didn't end well for Disney, but it shows their corporate intentions). That makes smaller outlets and critics (who depend on early access screenings for their jobs) completely unreliable as bad reviews could get you blacklisted from upcoming Star Wars and Marvel movies that account for literal billions of dollars in the movie industry.
Here is my take on it: The Sith are supposed to revel in passions and conflict. They aspire to personal power and freedom. As such they bring utter chaos. The apparent contradiction that puzzles you, namely why the rule of the Sith comes in the form of the seemingly orderly Empire, is simply due to the fact that it is the embodiment of the power and freedom of just one Sith - the Emperor. After all, what is a tyranny (no matter how orderly it may appear to be on the outside) but the arbitrary rule and whim of the tyrant?
Do you think this perspective is the world view of the “majority” or the world view of the “minority" who make these films? Or does it reflect our collective confusion? I remember leaving the cinema after watching “The Force Awakens” and feeling muddled. The way a lie can leave you feeling unaligned with yourself. But who’s telling the lie, ( if it is even a lie )? Is it our lie reflected back in our stories or is it the lie of an ideology propagating itself through film?
It's a pernicious mixture, I think. The minority who push it end up supported by a majority who look at the outer wrapping, think it is a good thing (because it superficially looks like a human rights movement) and never look deeper into the true nature of what it is all about. Add to this, the ideas are always framed in terms that make it look as if anyone who disagrees is some sort of a misogynist or racist. "The effects of framing can be seen in many journalism applications. With the same information being used as a base, the "frame" surrounding the issue can change the reader's perception without having to alter the actual facts. In the context of politics or mass-media communication, a frame defines the packaging of an element of rhetoric in such a way as to encourage certain interpretations and to discourage others. For political purposes, framing often presents facts in such a way that implicates a problem that is in need of a solution. Members of political parties attempt to frame issues in a way that makes a solution favoring their own political leaning appear as the most appropriate course of action for the situation at hand." - Wikipedia
Fascinating video, thanks Jonathan. Can you help me understand a) is Christ a Mary Sue inasmuch as, apart from a brief childhood sequence, he appears effectively as an adult with all his wisdom and skills and a fully rounded and perfect personality but without having to 'work' to get there? b) If so is Rey a christ-like figure?
If you think about the possible future story for Episode IX, Rey could be a redeemer to bring Kylo Ren back to the light. If this saga is still supposed to be about the Skywalkers, than Ben/Kylo is not totally lost. Rey's character may be intentionally overpowered because she will be a messianic figure, in the end, saving the only surviving Skywalker. It will be like the prequels where Anakin is saved.
In order to Rey be a Christ-like figure she must be crucified and the end of the ep.9 I suggest Mel Gibson as the director. I sure would buy the ticket.
I think you might be confusing a lack of sin and shortcoming for a lack of struggle a d temptation. Christ experienced both, exemplified by Satan's temptations of Jesus in his period of weakness in the desert and by his struggle and anxiety but ultimate submission to the will of God in the garden of Gethsemene prior to his arrest, trial and crucifixion.
To me, the FORCE is neither dark, nor light, it just is. It's energy, power. Force-users can tap into it, manipulate it in various ways, then use it for good or bad.
I have been uncomfortable with the last few Star Wars movies. The SJW theme was blatant but I also felt the characters' axioms were not fully developed to the point that a viewer could be expected to accept them as authentic. As you discussed, the hierarchy included leaders with gigantic deficits in competency skills and there was significant negative male messaging. Most troubling to me was the latest SOLO movie. Qi'ra scares me. She is beautiful and at times the victim, but it is all a mask. She is amoral. Wondering when you will present your impressions of SOLO?
What I always found odd was the threat of death from Vadar and the Emperor to their own troops and minions. Why do these guys want to be generals and admirals? When them being in a bad mood could get you killed? The Empire would not last that long, anyone with any brains would get out. I suppose you could make an argument that over a whole galaxy, most people would have very little contact with the Empire, so maybe they could limp along for a while, but there is no future in it. Just like with the Sith, with every apprentice killing their master, no future there either (but that makes sense since they are chaos).
Roger Theil North Korea is a good example. However, they have an enemy they can instill fear in the populace, that their dear leader is rhe only one keeping US from slaughtering them. This element seems to be missing for the Empire. But it is an interesting point that as long as leaders of chaos can keep fueling the chaos, hy csn stay in charge (top of the stucture). It is just that most stuctures can ot endure the ever increasing drive of chaos. Maybe. It's a theory?
Sun bro Nah, you're spot on. Idk how canon it is (I guess not at all now that Disney has taken over, but I don't really regard their opinion on what's canon let's be honest) but the Force Unleashed reveals that that was the reason behind the rebellion in the first place. Seems that not long after Palpatine took power, he started secretly networking with subversive factions to start a rebellion in order to root out his enemies and create a cause for continued weapons development for his military. So I think you're absolutely correct, and the rebellion was what was used to instill fear and encourage conformity and cooperation. We don't view the Rebellion as dangerous or scary, but we know them from movies made from its perspective, not Imperial propaganda.
Sun bro Very few of the admirals and captains were characterized well - most of them appear as faceless functionaries loyal to the Empire, but their interchangeability means there is little emotional impact when they suffer harm due to Vader's orders (except when he force chokes them). For example, in *The Empire Strikes Back* there's a scene where the Millennium Falcon hides in an asteroid belt, and Vader recklessly puts the entire imperial fleet into danger in order to find them. There's a moment where Vader confronts his commanders in hologram form and one of them obviously dies as his hologram avatar dissolves _during_ _the_ _transmission_ - it's clearly meant to be a form of dark comic relief. For me the point of those characters was to make the point that there is no one that Vader isn't willing to sacrifice to achieve his - or his master's - aims. Those are the story reasons. For the in-world plausibility reasons for why the military commanders don't just defect or mutiny, _fear_ is the basic reason. The military and Vader are loyal to the Emperor. The military commanders fear Vader and the Emperor. The regional governors fear the military and their Death Star. The local systems fear the governors, and so on. That's one point I think was clearly established during the famous _I_ _find_ _your_ _lack_ _of_ _faith_ _disturbing_ scene.
RochesFan I get the fear element. However, if people around you are dropping like flies, your going to flee. Fear isn't stong enough in everyone to keep them rooted in place, because the fear of the now imminent death is competing against the fear of Vadar. We know why someone may willingly die in combat, but it isn't out of fear (the Japanese Kamikaze pilots, the Spartans rule of never retreat, or suicide bombers - none of these are fear based). It's funny, but the Empire seems to be lacking any reason for those in it, to stay in it, long term. You are correct, the comics and former EU did expand more on this, on Palpatine's machinations. God, I am going to miss when this channel gets bigger and these great discussions won't happen anymore. Enjoy it while it is here.
I agree with your criticisms of the new spate of Star Wars movies, but I don't see any inherent conflict in the idea of the Jedi being about control, but being opposed to the Empire, the ultimate order. The Jedi discipline is about choosing to master yourself, to establish self-control. The Empire is about the imposition of control onto others, be they willing or not.
I've been very confused with the dark-side cave symbolism. The dark side hosts the First Order and the Empire which embody Order and power, yet the caves are places of chaos, self-reflection, and rebirth. Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. How do these opposites contain themselves in the same side of the force?
Good point, That entire story arc was inverted. Usually it''s the masculine hero that goes into darkness and bring backs something of value. Interestingly, she goes down into the darkness and brings nothing back. Funny how it works out that she's unable to bring back absolutely zero value. As the instinctual rule I would argue tend towards females being born with inherent value, only to see it diminish with time.
I'd argue the last bit is more something that has arisen with the loss of "grandmotherhood" due to the drop in the rate of population growth. The position I'd take with women and symbolism is that they are sustainers that keep things going and keep things from being lost.
God you wrote it twice. Just because you personally don't want to have sex with older women, doesn't mean they "diminish with time". That's the oldest shit in the sexist's book. News flash, women don't just exist for your use or pleasure.
You are right, they don't exist ONLY for my pleasure. Just as men don't only exist to give women attention. The human female exists in it's current form with the primary purpose of nurturing/facilitating life. They reward men that they deem as worthy of creating life with pleasure, they want to. This is where their primary value lies, and why a females overall value starts to decline once they are past their early 20's. Nothing prejudice about this reality. Technology has allowed humanity to reduce the importance of this general rule, but it is still there. And, if we start another civilizational decline, looks like we will in part because women are neglecting or choosing to disregard this responsibility. This reality will amplify in importance once again. Just as it did after the fall of Rome.
The dark-side cave represents PHYSICAL ORDER but METAPHYSICAL CHAOS. Thus when entering the cave, you will be forced to reliquish or detach from control over your METAPHYSICAL IDENTITY / CHARACTERISTICS in order to reattach yourself to the PHYSICAL IDENTITY / CHARACTERISTICS of self. The part the hero needs to succeed on their journey. Thus this is why LUKE saw his face in VADERS MASK.. as the PHYSICAL WORLD is a metaphor for PATRIARCHY and the line of Fatherhood through the family line. You have to risk losing yourself METAPHYSICALLY / MENTALLY in order to reattach to that important aspect of self. Thats why the hero fears going there.. as you may 'lose your mind' and never escape. Die to who you think you are... and embrace who you are becoming. This is what happened to 'Gazerbeam' in the Incredibles. .. he lost his METAPHYSICAL POWER and died in the cave.
I had no problem with Rey in VII, since I assumed that she was a Skywalker and her skills might make sense. However, with the most recent development (if the reveal in the latest movie is true), then she truly has her powers for no reason. A lot of people praised that, because it made her more relatable, and I also found it surprising that some people resented that the STAR WARS saga was about the Skywalkers to begin with. They resented the idea that talent is not evenly distributed throughout mankind and really want the idea represented on-screen that _anyone_ can be the Chosen One if they only believe. But I honestly don't think that it works that way, among other things because it was established in-canon that the Skywalkers are more powerful than anyone else. And it was also stated that the Skywalker family is the collective main character of the saga by both Lucas and Kennedy (and you will also find people who think that it's oppressive and unfair that a character has to be related to another character in order to be one of the main characters, which is even more ridiculous). At this point, I'm pretty annoyed with people and the way they're interpreting the saga.
The "contradictions" you point out aren't that contradictory. The Empire inherited the order of the Republic. Just because The Dark Side relies on negative emotions and letting go of discipline doesn't mean it can't also have structure. The Emperor's darkness isn't based on rage and anger, it's sinister, cold, and calculated. Order in and of itself is neither Dark nor Light. Many high functioning psychopaths and serial killers have an uncanny ability to keep up the appearance of order in their external lives to mask their internal chaos. It also isn't strange to have aristocrats within a rebel movement. The American Revolution for example was spearheaded by people who could effectively be called aristocrats or the intelligentsia of their time, where you had slave owners fighting for individual freedom. Jesus lead an intellectual rebellion against the order of the Roman Empire, and while he was a humble son of a carpenter, he was also the supreme aristocrat because he's really the son of God. Moses also started off as part of the aristocracy. Collectivist Imperialism is always easier to organize because conflict isn't tolerated (in the beginning of A New Hope we hear the Emperor permanently dissolved the Senate), whereas democracy or freedom is messy. The Rebels aren't trying to overthrow order itself, they're trying to overthrow an oppressive order, there is a difference. An abusive spouse can keep order, but it doesn't mean there can't be order without their abuse.
I remember agreeing when Science Fiction author Mike Resnick said on the Dangerous Histroy Podcast, what he found stupid about the original story. It basically was to dethrone an Emperor and replace him with a Princess. So much for political progress...
This never bothered me too much, kind of like you need a monster to fight a monster, royalty to fight royalty. Besides, they were always going to restore the Republic, that was the goal.
Nah this was just a bad fanfiction. It will in years to come not even be considered canon. Disney will run the franchise into the ground and eventually sell it off to someone else. Star Wars will survive this age of darkness. It's just a shame that all the OT actors will be dead and were wasted like this. They had a once in a lifetime opportunity and wasted it. That's what really sucks.
I really agree with what you said. I Think the shifting Ideals comes from the fact that Lucas is no longer in charge, and this new vision is someone else entirely.
I assumed Rey (of light) was a parallel to Jesus. Incorruptible, forgiving, will always try to save someone. That's why her parents are herself, just like Jesus is his own father. Her vision in the cave was the Buddist thing Jordan Peterson talked about - the ideal being repeated down through history. Perhaps Anakin was one of those but screwed it up? And the force (holy spirit) is with Rey - she's been trained by it unknowingly all her life. I seen the biblical parallel to David. David was a lowly shepherd, he got really good with a sling, when he has to take down Goliath it's like, "wait a minute! I've become an expert in slinging rocks over the years! That's the perfect way to whack him!" Therefore Rey knew how to fix and fly the falcon because she's a scavenger. She knows how to use a light sabre because she's been whacking potential rapists off with that stick thing her all her life. Waiting for her parents to come back - there's patience learned. It's like she had no bible/religion (Jedi) but the holy spirit (force) was teaching her indirectly all along. And don't they say the function of religion should be to guide people to spirituality? She was already there. Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven. Where's the Kingdom of Heaven? The Kingdom of Heaven is within you. So too is the force - you have that power too! She even taught Luke a lesson. Remember Jesus, 12 years old, teaching the priests? Plus I like female characters, SW is too dominated by males. It's nice to see a change up and a female lead character who isn't sexualised.
Andy Web I like where you're going with that. It makes me feel a little easier about all this. Rey isn't what bothers me about the movie but I didn't know why.
anonymouse 99 Interesting point. Anakin, Luke, Rey. Even Obi-Wan in the original. That guy Max Von Sydow played also seemed a desert dweller. Just like the Old Testament. The Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E. Lawrence also mentions religion sprouting from desert dwellers.
I feel like the point you're missing about the metaphysics of Star Wars in the first four minutes of the video is that the extreme order the empire embodoes is lifeless and mechanical. Where as the self realized path of the Rebels is dusty, material, and imperfect. You can see this expressed in the way the rebels order their military and hierarchy vs the way the empire's complete order and perfection. Perfection is unattainable by the physical world. And that is why the force is so conceivably popular amongst people. The spirtual path is a hard and messy road to take, it's nice to be able to see someone we can relate to on that.
I actually liked the movie. Not that I don't have my problems with it. Couple of critiques though, Rey isn't as much of a Mary Sue as she appears at first glance. Her upbringing is very different from Luke, abandoned on her own. She's already an expert in melee weapons for instance, not because she wanted to, but because she had to be in order to survive. And a lightsaber is a melee weapon after all. The Poe character arc in my view is about him becoming a leader in addition to becoming a hero. He can't figure out the difference between a calculated risk, which if it turns into a failure you can recover from. In contrast, a gamble is all in, failure of which might undue you completely. There's a time for that, but Poe doesn't have the wisdom to see that. Which brings me to major problem with the movie. It's just too damn busy! We can't have POE stop learn, nor Rey, because we need a chase scene or something. But overall, I did actually like the movie, for all its faults
You don't just suddenly become "an expert in melee weapons", it doesn't make sense in any way, even less so when she goes on to beat Kylo Ren who is the product of a line of masters. Not to mention she's been using a staff the whole time and suddenly is able to masterfully wield a sword.
The skill sets aren't that far apart. And Kylo was kind of shot in the gut. I'm not saying I don't have problems with the movie, I'm saying I enjoyed them and some of the reasons why. But hey, who needs nuance?
I think it's fine to have a literary character that's seemingly good at everything - take Paul Atreides from Dune for example who literally becomes a god - the problem is when it makes no sense what the origin of these things are or what purpose they play in the themes of the story. Paul Atreides was literally genetically bred to be a super human and was raised/trained/educated by a royal family his whole life and constantly tested. He was important to the story for fulfilling the messiah role that was central to the plot regarding the economics/religions of that universe. He loses his father and his father's nation/state and is cast into the desert where he fulfills the Messiah status so at least he gets an arc. In Star Wars there's already been a "chosen one" character - his name was Anakin Skywalker and he was naturally gifted, only he fell to the dark side and became Vader (his arc). With Rey we see that she grew up in harsh conditions and had to feed/defend herself, she salvages imperial/rebellion technology and learns piloting with salvaged training headsets. The problem is there's no hero's journey to be had as she never loses a battle or even remotely struggles with any task, there's no character arc as she has no love interests or personal struggles - even the question about her parents is easily dismissed for her. Her struggle with the dark side doesn't seem to affect her either. She starts on 3rd base and is casually walking in home runs all movie long, but even accepting that she doesn't affect the story much. Kylo Ren is a much better character with actual agency.
the ones that do not see it or deny it are in that world where the left or rebels fight for freedom using their power to be able to do anything so long as there is not someone holding them down be it real or in the group mind of that world view followed or brainwashed into. So long as you are not male of course as the gender aspect of this world view also is a factor. This is why there was a huge fail and rejection of this movie as it is a refection of a view that while Hollywood and left followers want and think is right it is not that of a large part of America . Most media has this TLJ world view that is shown and it is not holding to the way real world systems work, that is why the POTUS is who he is, it is why no one believes MSM news, it is why so many heavy reflected movies and shows are not popular or do not make what they are projected to make , people d not want it. its a core a world that is reflected as Mary sue, lazy humans being led like cows, by leaders that cannot lead as other ideals come before the meat and potatoes that need to be done like training learning etc. America as a large prat still wants to be the Luke of old and work and train to reach the end to get the fairy tale ending and help people in the story to that goal.
dan Dude, She was allready (yeah that word ALLREADY proficient and reletively an expert in melee combat (She learned these skills on Jakku.) She knows how to use Lightsaber (roughly) because of this knowledge of melee combat that she ALLREADY has. Get it
LOL Here you are all confused. But, anyone who has played D&D knows that the OT Star Wars trilogy is just a battle between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good.
The Empire was Lawful Evil. The important PCs driving the Empire were all Dark Side, passionate, driven by rage. They were _Chaotic_ Evil. That tension got a little bit of play in the originals, with Vader casually murdering Imperial officers. This movie has it all muddled, without a real Good, and treating Order/Chaos incoherently.
No. They were not driven by rage. They used their anger. There is a difference. Darth Vader and Darth Sidious were both lawful evil. They wanted to bring peace and Order to the Galaxy.
Darth Vader the The Emperor (Darth Sidious) were not interested in "peace and order". They were hell-bent on the utter submission (or death) of any who opposed them. Assassination and murder is not "lawful evil" - just pure evil.
Sorry pal, you're wrong. Both Vader and sidious are legitimate authorities within the empire. Their acts may be evil, but they are entirely lawful. They are not agents of Chaos, like say The Joker Is.
Legitimate authorities? Emperor Palpatine's self-imposed authority - with the intent of of assassinating all Jedi (the previous lawful protectors of the peace) and blowing up planets of innocents/opposers - does not equate to lawfulness. He was an evil man who used others (Vader and the forces of the Empire) to spread fear, death, and chaos throughout the galaxy for his own greed of power and control.
If we consider the distinction between the desire for internal order and external order, I imagine this would help us better understand the light sides apparent interest in order (internally) and the dark sides apparent interest in order (externally). Consider the points below:
The Jedi, or the light side, were never interested in establishing an external order in terms of galactic governance or otherwise, their goal has always been the cultivation of a personal, internal order; maintaining control over personal emotions, freeing oneself from personal attachments, achieving a calmness over the passions, and to act only in defense of oneself or others and never to achieve ones ends or for reasons of aggression.
The dark side of the force, on the other hand, serving as a mirror image for the light side, is deeply engaged in and always aspiring to achieve dominance and control over the external world and its inhabitants. This would appear to be partially a result of the chaos that reigns within their own mind and spirit, where the passions are permitted to dominate their psyche and rule over their conscience and intellectual faculties. The need to satisfy their own ambitions, passions, and maintain a hold over personal and/or physical attachments, combined with the aggressive tendencies cultivated by the dark side, instills the desire among all dark side force wielders to twist the world in a way that satisfies their own wants and apparent needs.
This was ultimately Anakin's undoing, and explains his departure from the light. He could not let go of his personal attachment to his mother, Padme, or his then unborn children. The need to control future events, and to order the world in his favor, created a chaotic disorder in his mind compelling him to act in ways he knew were wrong and conflicted with the Jedi way.
EVIDENCE: 1) He killed the Sandpeople in revenge for the harm that befell his mother:
2) killed Count Dooku in part due to the loss of his own hand to Dooku in a previous battle (attachment to a hand, funny);
3) participated in the death of Mace Windu to protect the Emperor so he could later save Padme;
4) killed the Jedi because they were also now a threat to the Emperors survival and would challenge the Senate;
5) turned against Kenobi because of jealousy and his belief that Kenobi had turned Padme against him (loss of love);
6) killed the Trade Federation leaders to facilitate an orderly Empire and end any threat to the Empire and those he loved;
7) filled with hate when Kenobi severed three more of his limbs and took Padme from him;
8) Finally, the death of Padme and supposedly his children (at his own hands) sealed his fate as a Sith (loss of love, regret of past actions, his need to bring Padme back via the dark side of the force).
Vader's spirit was consumed with chaotic feelings of guilt, regret, loss, hate, and the desire for revenge driving his need for order in the external world and to fulfill his ambition to learn the secrets of the dark side. Upon learning that Luke and Leia were alive, the conflict between his light and dark sides was reborn. He now had the opportunity to right some past wrongs, to save his son and daughter where he could not save Padme. He probably now knew the Emperors claims of the ability to resurrect the dead were also a lie.
In the concluding scenes of Return of the Jedi, the orderly Empire and the Emperor himself now threatened Vader's attachment to his own children. The Emperor failed to realize that the very same passions that had once led Vader to the dark side now led him back to the light; his love for his children.
This is even more clear when we realize why Kenobi and Yoda are so concerned with Luke's attachment to his friends and his impulsiveness. They feared that the same passions that were the folly of Vader would now be the folly of Luke. And they nearly were. But in the end, Luke's passions and faith in his father proved a force for virtue and light, as the love of Luke restored Vader's goodness in the love of his son. Contrary to the views of the author of this video, I feel this is a very coherent and consistent narrative device that drives the original 6 films, though, it certainly was violated, and horrifically so, in The Last Jedi.
Your comment is amazing. Pinned it.
Thanks very much! Very kind of you. I am also very interested in the power of symbolism and hoped this might add to the discussion.
If we consider the monastic nature of Kung Fu and virtually every other monastic order I can think of, the focus is always on order of spirit and control over ones own passions, attachments and ambitions. One achieves order of spirit by withdrawing from the physical world, not by seeking to order it. Hence, the Jedi serve solely an advisory and defensive role in the democratic republic seeking only to preserve a realm of physical freedom which is the only society in which one is free to pursue what Aristotle called 'Eudaimonia' or human flourishing.
In Socrates and Plato, we find a desire to create a state led by Guardians that would permit peace, prosperity and human flourishing. Imagine the Guardians as Jedi. But in Aristotle, we see a growth in understanding where the Guardians were an impossible dream as the knowledge of the forms was nothing but a noble lie. Therefore, he preferred the conditions that only democracy permitted where Eudaimonia could be pursued by virtually all citizens. Of course, in that time, the system was still sustained by slaves, but perhaps we could consider the droids in Star Wars as the new Helots. Good fun!
Very well said, especially your follow up about eastern spiritual practice and mythology. Very informative and comprehensive. Only thing I'd suggest is reformatting with paragraph and line breaks between separate points/examples, for ease of reading.
Its only a shame that such important ideas underpinning the whole mythos of Star Wars aren't easier to communicate; but if they were so simple they wouldn't be so deep and meaningful to so many (except of course in The Last Jedi, which contravenes all of the above). That's why they are told across a saga after all.
Sure, I'll reformat the comment after work. Cheers.
You realize this is a comment I wrote in a few minutes during a break at work, not a dissertation. I will, however, revise it to make it more accessible and pleasing to the eyes this evening. Hope you at least found some of the comments interesting.
i couldn't believe when Rose kissed Finn without consent
TRIGGERED
After taking away his ability to save all hope for the galaxy
Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaape !!! :P
it was as if she neutered him right there in front of the whole First Order!
omglolzbbqsauce Finn should file assault charges on Rose
My single biggest complaint about the new Star Wars was how the writers took Luke, the single most important hero figure of the franchise, and turned him into a nihilist.
Ike Evans - Luke was moderately nihilistic throughout the movie. I was envisioning Luke to take a Benedict Option sort of nihilism, only to return to the world that needed him, but it went totally overboard with nihilism when the tree and the books were burnt, in my opinion.
It was clear from the onset of losing Kilo Ren to the dark side that the world (or galaxy?) needed him. Everything about Luke's character from the original trilogy was to never give up hope. Even when both Obi Won and Yoda (both of whom remained active in saving the galaxy) thought Darth was beyond redemption, Luke was the guy who insisted that he could be saved. None of what we saw with Luke in the Last Jedi made the slightest bit of sense. Throughout the entire movie, he not only failed to accomplish anything (he didn't even train Rey), he... uhhh... died only after a fake lightsaber duel. WTF? Why did the writers do this?
Side note: the books weren't burned. If you look carefully, Rey stole the books before she finally got sick and tired of Luke's self pity. Don't worry, I didn't catch it either. My friends had to point that out to me as well.
Ike Evans, I myself, really like the idea of Luke becoming a nihilist, I think that Luke learning from a mistake is good. Except I don't like how they did it. How does someone go from seeing the light in what most people think is the most irreversibly evil man and going out of his way to save him, to instantly thinking that he should kill his niece after he looks as if he is getting a bit evil.
Ike Evans I disagree about him being a nihilist. Luke believes that his very presence has made things worse for the galaxy, and that he is doing the right thing by going into exile.
Like eating a soup I really like and finding a hair in every spoonful...I love it, you brilliantly articulated how it felt watching it
Christopher Hickish so you hated it? Thats what that means. I think its a terrible metaphor. If you had a soup full of hair it would be a miserable, awful experience.
There is purple hair in my Star Wars.
Purple pubic hair...
Jack Fruth, he mean't he loved Jonathan's metaphor not the idea of finding hair in his soup..
It is like flushing a toilet and it overflows instead.
Haven't you guys figured it out yet? Since we were so blandly informed in TLJ that the "Force is female," in a kind of deus ex machina explanation for Rey's otherwise inexplicable powers, Rey, being female, is obviously intended to be the personification or embodiment of the force. She is the New Messiah, the darling avatar of the feminist extremists who have hijacked my hometown of Hollywood...Think about it...Messiahs and other such god-like culture heroes need no training.
"Extremists" run around with guns. So just ease up on that overblown rhetoric. It's really funny to see how butt hurt so many guys are that women can actually get the spot light sometimes now, and not just being a love interest character.
I do feel that the number of female characters in this movie felt a bit forced, but really, why is male always the default?
Jane Doe: I have no problem with women on a powerful position. The problem is that IN THE NAME OF political correctness you sacrifice artistic value. It would be equally stupid to make a macho-male remake of the classic "Charlie's Angels". The problem with the new SW is that the producers pissed on the fans and the SW legacy. I loved Star Wars since the original episodes. Now a crude political agenda has ruined it.
This is not a discussion about women in power, but in the artifical inverting of Natural Law. Biology and bio-chemistry ARE NOT opinions or "social constructs". They are facts. Why do the contemporary female characters in films have to espouse MALE values? Can't they make movies that show strong FEMININE females and show the beauty of femininity? This is cultural marxism at its "finest".
I can't wait until we take their rights away
@@Captain_MonsterFart this film is nihilistic trash. The people who like this film are depressed and mentally ill. No respect for the legacy of this great franchise. Rey is pure trash
@Jane Doe women fuck up overtime they're in power. We're taking your rights away
I felt physically and emotionally sick for three days after watching this movie for exactly the same reasons that you pointed out. The corrupt use of symbols for the political ideology of margin good, center evil is absolutely sickening and undermines the whole mythological structure of Star Wars and the Hero's Journey itself. I ranted and raved about exactly those problems in the movie and, thankfully, most of my friends understood the symbolic and philosophical implications I was speaking of.
In the end, this serves as a cautionary tale for me to never corrupt symbolism in my own narratives, to never use it instrumentally for a shallow political or personal message.
Poetry of Chaos and Order never? What if it were a Satire? Use your tools
Well, satire is not a corruption of symbolism, it's playful use of it that does not aim to undermine core mythological themes, it aims to point and laugh at the stupid and absurd and at the extremes of one polarity or another.
I use satire all the time to point out absurdity, contradictions and stupidity in everyday life and love it. Not a comedian (yet, may one day try), but I love doing it, while trying not to be spiteful and resentful at it.
Cannot agree more, if one is a Star Wars fan from childhood and has grown up with its mythology, you understand how pathetic this movie was. Unfortunately, my friends and family didn't get it! It was absolutely crushing to the whole way of the force and everything was destroyed in the 2.5hrs of this movie. Star Wars is dead to me now... after 30yrs of passion following! :(
Do you think that was done as a conscious malevolent effort to propagandize or are the creators so immersed in political thought and ideology that they did it subconsciously
Probably a bit of both, the alt-left brainwash, echochamber of the Hollywood and group think plays a big role, but this particular movie has so many virtue signaling that it couldn't have been all subconsciously done, they literally dismantled 40yrs of Star Wars mythology for a purpose, couldn't have been just a coincidence.
i saw The Last Jedi as a sacrifice of the myth for a post-modern meta criticism. failure, the great teacher I would posit being borrowed by the great playwright samuel beckett "fail better fail faster", killing the past (but not really because nothing matters). Joseph Campbell would cry
Yep it's post modernism replacing myth
IF failure is truly the greatest teacher, Rian Johnson must be a much better director than he was in TLJ.
Yes and even the great/first postmodern literary authors like john barth were still reiterating the same myth they found in the bible, the iliad, shakespeare, etc.
There was no need to have failure here . RJ can go fail in an alley on the street and take that uber bitch KK with him.
Don't forget that Rose was zapping deserters. That doesn't sound like a voluntary Militia.
It sure seemed that way when she prevented Finn from destroying the cannon.
Yeah that really bothered me too. Like people aren't allowed to leave the resistance? Very Empire. And the end with the kiss and the stupid line just made me cringe.
That is how the Marxists see things. That was not how Lucas and the OT fans saw things.
Besides the point that forcing people to remain on a ship against their will and fight for you is essentially enslavement. It wasn't really a scenario where more personnel was necessarily even a tactical advantage.
@Philip Such ridiculous discipline when everything was hopeless would have been unnecessary if the Resistance Command had it's shit together to begin with. But it was run by women, so what could one expect?
There are actually people who believe this was the best of the series? Ahahaha that is so sad.
The people who liked this Star Wars - Are all kids, who never grew up with the world of Star Wars.
Disney has done this on purpose - They killed off all the old pivotal characters to start fresh - Which is just a full on kick in the face to anyone who grew up with these films!
Kathleen Kennedy is a liar, she said to George Lucas, "I will look after your creation!".
No, she KILLED IT!
"Kathleen Kennedy is a liar" Yup. Not only did she lie to Lucas and completely disregarded his ideas she also made sure with these hacky directors Abrams and Johnson to ignore criticism particularly that of Hamill's that the story and characters particularly Luke's do not make sense. She has this hyperactive agenda to push and she's using Star Wars to pedal it.
Some of them are elitists who never really liked Star Wars so they love that TLJ has trashed all the previous movies.
They're probably paid to believe it
Merry belated
Behind every cry for Rebellion is the joyous voice of aristocracy.
Hear me Roar.
For I want more.
Me Too
My name is Mary Sue
It's Mary Sue you tiny-balled xenoestrogen-guzzler. What is a "Mary Sue"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
"Is Rey a Mary Sue?" ua-cam.com/video/gk0pxceQuWg/v-deo.html
BassFZz Video Jan 2016 - "Is Rey a Mary Sue? Yes. Yes she is." ua-cam.com/video/BIxYGisMN84/v-deo.html
Your comment in the video reminds me of a GK Chesterton quote: "The modern world is not evil; in some ways the modern world is far too good. It is full of wild and wasted virtues. When a religious scheme is shattered, it is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do damage. But the virtues are let loose also; and the virtues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more terrible damage. The modern world is full of the old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have gone mad because they have been isolated from each other and are wandering alone. Thus some scientists care for truth; and their truth is pitiless. Thus some humanitarians only care for pity; and their pity (I am sorry to say) is often untruthful."
Great dismantling, THANK YOU!
What I found most disturbing was that this movie (and last one to a certain extent), completely wiped out every Jedi order, nature of force, the Star Wars Universe, all of the lessons learned earlier, the importance of discipline, training and commitment, to some random way of being. In the last movie, it was ridiculous that Rey could just beat Kylo Ren with ZERO training, that's just stupid and against all of the norms of ways of the force taught in the past movies (Anakin at 7yrs old was TOO OLD to be trained for instance)!
As a child, what I loved about Star Wars, was Yoda and how wise he was, how smart he was, how much wisdom he had and I always was HUNGRY to learn about what's the new way of Jedi or a lesson that may come in the next movie... NONE OF IT HERE. I was HUNGRY and ANXIOUS to learn "what else is he gonna teach Luke next", it was a mystery worth discovering. Now, Luke was merely a shadow of himself, a loner, a loser, kind of a lost drunk uncle... he basically couldn't teach Rey anything and that absolutely bothered me the most. My childhood hero was crushed into an inconsequential character.
I am 100% sure it was mostly to completely wipe out any male (and white) hero from the franchise, and replace it with feminine hero instead. Like for instance, the way Princess Leah somehow pulled herself back into the ship after being blown up was just ridiculous, while Luke couldn't just fight Kylo (who lost to Rey) in person?! Even if that was the goal, I wouldn't have mind it for Rey to be the new Luke, IF she was taught in the same way, trained the same, studied the Jedi and way of the force and learned wisdom from Luke... I think that would have been a great way to pass the torch and continue the franchise with new ways and characters and satisfy SJW types as well... however, this movie absolutely RUINED the WHOLE STAR WARS FRANCHISE, all mythology so far being built via other movies as well as 121 episodes of Clone Wars which was much more in-line with the way of the Jedi, the force than this (even being a cartoon made for kids)!
Overall, I so wanted to love the movie, I thought maybe JJ Abrams went off a bit and the actual Luke and Rey re-union and Jedi training off the island will bring things back to normal, but it didn't, it made it a lot worse and I absolutely don't care about the next film as essentially all of the best characters died and there's nothing to look forward to! :(
Most people who run American businesses despise their products customers and employees and are very complacent thinking that there will always be stupid, gullible, ignorant, tasteless scum that will buy their crap, such as GM cars, but then they run out of such stupid people with money and run into trouble as GM did.
Well it was even worse than that. Ep 7 and 8 are poorly written implausible uninspired derivative destructive nonsense. The NR was on the rise, the Empire in retreat, and Luke was training jedi after ep.6.
Magic MaRey Sue does not work.
Gabber Chylde so true. WTH. He should have faught in person, if not, why the hell did he die? They crushed his character. Made him look like an old useless drunk uncle, instead of making him to be the next Obi One. Why not? It was super easy to do that. To kinda pass the torch. Obi one passed it to Luke, now Luke passes to Rey. But NOOOO we can’t do that as that’s too traditional and not SJW BS. This had so much potential, for Luke to train Rey, properly, to teach her ways of the force and Jedi. Then maybe he dies in real fight against Kylo but then in next movie Rey takes revenge. Like comeone. That makes sense. Also killing Stokes was just the dumbest thing ever. I can go on and on and on. Worst ever Star Wars story by a million miles!
@AudiS4orce1 I'm 100% agreed with every word you say I feel the same
The movie is not even able to explain what the FO is, where it came from and what its goals are. There is no world building, so in the end, the movie has no impact, because the general audience does not know why something happens. Its like watching lord of the rings without knowing why frodo must go to mordor.
the FO is explained in the books. disney just wants you to spend money to buy it lol lol
But explaining one most important plotpoint in a book instead of a movie is just really stupid. Its like
Hagrid: Harry, Lord Voldemort wants to kill you and take over the wizard world!
Harry; But why Hagrid?
Hagrid: Read the fucking book
Star Wars is lucky that is has so much action and nostalgia. I guess some people dont even notice this plothole.
6kubik agreed. and for those that say it's a trilogy and you have to watch all 3 movies to get the whole story, that doesn't fly. you gotta give some background material or else alot of the plot won't make sense and many people will lose interest
Except its not the most important plot point at all. As a matter of fact its not even a plot point. As a matter of fact its not even important. Your LOTR comparison is cheap, easy, and inaccurate. Wah I dont like how X is not explained in this movie! That's like not explaining Y in this other movie! Terrible logic. Your complaint about lack of world building in the 8th film of an already fleshed out universe, toppled with the complaint of something not being explained when the final chapter of the story isnt even complete is unfair and it holds no weight.
+ Lexington SteeL How does it hold no weight? Sure it's the eighth film in the franchise, but the events of this trilogy are narratively so far removed from where we were at the end of Return of the Jedi that not explaining the First Order/Snoke, who they/he are/is, what they/he wants, and why/he wants it detracts from our ability to invest in the story at hand. This conflict is not borne of the conflict that seemed to be concluded at the end of RotJ, so the audience has every right to demand to be caught up on just what the hell is happening. Do you really think that one film out of nine or three depending on how you look at it can retroactively make this current trilogy make sense? Has any other trilogy/saga in the history of trilogies/sagas EVER worked that way?
I like your ideas. When I saw the first trailer for the Last Jedi and Luke said that the Jedi had to end I was a little excited. Everything in Canon(books, comics, shows, movies) was pointing to the formation of the "Gray Jedi." Gray Jedi don't deny their emotions and passions. Here is the Legends mantra of the Gray Jedi:
"There must be both dark and light. I will do what I must to keep the balance, as the balance is what holds all life. There is no good without evil, but evil must not be allowed to flourish. There is passion, yet peace; serenity, yet emotion; chaos, yet order. I am a wielder of the flame; a champion of balance. I am a guardian of life. I am a Gray Jedi."
This is such a dramatic change in the way the Jedi operate. The Jedi weren't able to cope with strong emotions because they chose to neglect them. Whenever they came in contact with dark side artifacts they were overcome by the emotions that were being forced on them and they almost always fell to the dark side. To the Gray Jedi there is only the Force. They use "Dark Side" powers but are not evil. The reason Dark Side orders like the Sith existed was because there had to be balance to the force. If the Jedi took this approach a group like the Sith would not rise.
Great explanation of TLJ, and Star Wars in general. Just last week watched Spirited Away with my kids for the first time (on your recommendation), they loved it!
Bottomline is people watch movies for entertainment, a way to forget about their troubles for a few hours. When we can't even get that anymore from a movie it's time to stop going to watch them. Read a book, spend time with a loved one, or take a walk in nature. Spend quality time enjoying your life. Don't let these corporate companies like Disney brainwash you and your children. It's time to stop going to movie theaters folks.
Agreed. I haven't owned a TV for years, and go to the cinema maybe twice a year. I took my boys to Last Jedi and loathed it. So did they.
That's not why people watch movies and it has never been why people viewed plays or art. They view them in order to find deeper meaning, whether they know it or not. That is why films like this are so offensive- the deeper meaning they convey is incorrect. It simply isn't truth. It's shallow pandering to weak, cowardly, immature fantasy.
There is no way I will pay this micky-mouse crap.
Chad Reisman agreed i see movies a few times a year...previously was bi monthly often. Good luck.
I have 3 kids under the age of 4, so I don't get out to the movies too often. The only movie I've seen in the theater in the last year was TLJ. Jesus, what a waste of babysitter time. Good thing the babysitters were my parents and I didn't have to pay for it.
Beautiful said, Jonathan. Movies today are butchering myth.
They are deliberately doing so, in a partisan attempt to to push their diarrhetic PC shit on the audiences face.
Whats PC? I diverse cast? Female leads?
1. Female leads have always been a thing in Star Wars
2. The lack of diversity in the OT was a common criticism, mainly because it clashes with attempts at world building. Any writer who gives advice on world building will tell you this.
James Fontana Birds of a feather flock together but oil and water do not mix.
I liked a lot of your points, but there are some things going on in the characters stories I think you overlooked. For one thing, you mentioned Finn as having overcome his cowardice in his final act of self-sacrifice that was stopped by Rose. However, that wasn't the only part of his development. Finn had a strong resentment and hatred for the First Order. More than anything, he wanted to see them fail and suffer. Remember Finn's attitude on Canto Bight? "It was worth it tok make these awful people suffer!" Then Rose let's free the fathier and says "NOW it's worth it." Finn still hadn't got that his heart wasn't in the right place, and he was about to sacrifice himself on Crait NOT for the Resistance and the people you said he loved behind the base doors, but to do whatever he could to guarantee a suffering loss by the First Order. "I won't let them win!" He WAS fighting what he hated, not saving what he loved. That's why Rose stopped him to remind him again, and THAT realization after was the culmination of his development in this story, that maybe what he was looking for all along since the beginning of The Force Awakens ("I was raised to fight, but now I've got nothing to fight for") actually existed, and here was now something he could really fight FOR, instead of just hating the First Order and wanting to see them suffer.
It is very important to understand how societal values are reflected in media at the time. This video does a good job of succinctly highlighting the pervasive presence of a female-driven SJW sort of inverted hierarchy that is still gaining so much momentum.
Benjamin Jackson Nicely said...totally agree.
Well, it's not like male driven dominance has been a paradise or anything...
Polite Q , it hasn't been all hell and misery either.
Michael Maman , it's strange how Marxism has only led to the deaths of millions of people by their own government.
Polite Q; What are you? Some kind of SJW male feminist? STFU.
Everyone on the net gets Mary Sue slightly wrong. It’s not all about what she can do physically. That’s actually a small part of it. It’s more about how other characters treat her and view her. The original Mary Sue was not a fighter. Mostly loved by Spock, Kirk and McCoy. But of course what Rey does is part of it. Anyway, very interesting video.
You're comments on Rey being the quintessentially Millenial hero story are spot on, and put words to what I have been thinking.
I find it a sad testament that 30 years ago Disney could produce absolute masterpieces like the Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast. Now they are producing Post-Modern claptrap like Frozen and Moana.
And there seems to be an incredible demand for propaganda nowadays :*(
Moana isn’t post modern, that movie is all about respecting the past and your elders as well as working with your old heroes while bringing them down to earth on your level. It’s not like Maui gets replaced, he just makes Moana a part of him due to how they both help each other and work together as a team. Compare that to Little Mermaid, where Ariel causes a problem, eventually puts her dad and home in real danger, doesn’t really fix the problem herself she just needs the prince to do it for her and by the end Ariel gets what she wants without really earning it, that’s pretty liberal right there.
@@jman2856 correct. The biggest source of the problem is in Lucasfilm itself. Rian Johnson, the director of TLJ, is a good friend and associate of Kathleen Kennedy, the one in charge of Lucasfilm. He appealed to her and they both did their own thing with it. I don't think TFA was a bad movie, in fact I quite enjoyed a lot of it. The problems with certain characters, Rey in particular, stem from a particular and deliberate storytelling device JJ Abrams likes to use where he sets up the pieces on the board and leaves a lot of mystery about them to get people to come back, it's just that Johnson didn't do much with what was set up and in some instances threw it out altogether. The Last Jedi, although I did greatly enjoy certain parts of the movie, is deeply flawed because of the vision of the director and executive producer and head of Lucasfilm who aligns with his ideological vision.
The strange inversion of impulsive anger being on the same side as oppressive order...
Logic and discipline on the same side as passionate freedom and guerrilla warfare...
I hadn’t even seen that! Thank you. This is wonderfully useful.
Poe being humiliated by the matriarchy was extremely frustrating to watch.
especially when Holdo later turns out to be responsible for the whole drama
erhmm, Flyboy was reponsible for the deaths of the resistance in the cloaked transports, when he broadcast Holdo's plans over insecure network !!
It wouldn't have been leaked if Poe was told Holdo''s plan at an earlier point.
Sure, let's tell our super secret plans to a subordinate who just committed mutiny and held his superiors at gun point.
Obviously not at that point. When the ships were being fueled, that would have been the opportune moment. And any time before that would have worked too.
Jonathan Pageau, your comments are among the more perspicacious/insightful and enlightened that I have heard...A well balanced critique, containing the fascinating concept of an inverted order in story telling, mainly the "revolutionary" nature of fan fiction. Thank you.
Leaving the cinema after Force Awakens I was on a high. On leaving The Last Jedi i felt like taking a hot shower and wiping the experience from mt mind.
Rich Valentine This is like what I went through. I walked out of the theater actually in shock. I have no other way to explain it. This isn't Star Wars. That reaction works with certain genres, not Star Wars.
I like the idea of the soup with hair, but I felt it was more like eating really great cookies. You get that first bite and it's awesome, but before you get the satisfaction of having that last bite, someone comes along and takes your cookie. Over and over. You never get that last crumb satisfaction from this movie. So frustrating.
One last thing about the inversion here, comparing the first two trilogies with this one. The emphasis on training, with order and releasing attachments, Kylo Ren is still on the path of a Jedi. Take away the evil elements, and you could place Yoda is Snokes place and it would work. Rey is not learning these lessons. She is more on the path to darkness than Kylo.
It was nonsense even then. Ep 7 and 8 are poorly written implausible uninspired derivative destructive nonsense. The NR was on the rise, the Empire in retreat, and Luke was training jedi after ep.6.
The Fart Awakens was just as bad. You just let the fanservice cloud your judgment.
Rich Valentine
The farce awakens was just a remake -.-
The last joke, was also a remake, the problem is that it added sjw which were not that strong in The farce awakens.
At the end, both lame, unoriginal films.
I’m so glad I’ve decided not to watch any of the remakes or new movies in order not to ruin the saga in my mind.
I don't know if this matters, but in the cinematic canon there was no "Light Side" of the force, until the new movies. Before it was just "The Force" and "The Dark Side". But audiences of the older movies automatically overlayed their own notions of a Light/Dark dichotomy in the force, because of the obvious Good vs Evil character split.
In other works (both pre- and post-Disney), the Light/Dark divide has existed for a long time, and the direction that more recent works seem to be moving in is the idea that Light is too Ordered, and Dark is too Chaotic. That the solution is to walk a line in the middle, sometimes called "Gray Jedi".
In the prequel movies, we see a highly ordered Jedi tradition. However, the Heroes are the troublemakers, Qui-Gon and Obi-wan, who bend the rules of their monastic order as they deem necessary. They are the ones who get sent away to the backwaters of the galaxy to mediate trade disputes, because keeping them around the temple is too much trouble. Qui-Gon dies in the end, but lives on as a ghostly echo ("force ghost"), something that canonically hadn't happened for centuries.
Obi-Wan tries (and fails) to guide Anakin. Far from the order of the temple, Anakin drifts even further into chaos than Qui-Gon had, and becomes subsumed by it. He kills the faceless Sand People, then he escalates to killing other Jedi, children and his pregnant lover. Finally, he tries to kill his Mentor. He fails, and becomes a nigh-emotionless machine as a result. Obi-Wan flees from his failure, seeking solitude in the desert and a life of watching guard over Anakin's son.
In the transition to the Original Trilogy, Darth Vader is now cold and ordered. His only emotion is anger, and even that is ice compared to Anakin's earlier fire. Darth Vader obeys orders, but doesn't hesitate to casually kill his own subordinates who get in his way. He is still undeniably a villain, but he is a self-ordered monster, and closer to the Jedi discipline than Anakin was. When Darth Vader finally dies (after a brief change-of-heart), he becomes a force ghost.
Obi-Wan practically leaps at the opportunity to impart some brief bit of wisdom and Jedi training to young Luke, despite Luke being completely unfit for training by the old Jedi standards. Even before they reach Alderaan, he is teaching Luke how to wield a lightsaber and reach out with his feelings. And once it becomes clear that Vader is on the Death Star, he seeks him out and draws him into a confrontation. In many ways this is characteristic of how Obi-Wan has always been, but it means in 30 years of reflection he hasn't fallen back to the ways of the old Jedi order. And when he dies, he also ascends as a force ghost.
Yoda, one of the Masters of the old Jedi religion, has gone from the ordered city world and temple life, to living as a solitary hermit completely surrounded by mother nature. And he only needs gentle prodding from Obi-Wan's ghost in order to take up training Luke. It's clear that he wants to train Luke, and is just fishing for excuses not to. Far from the high order he once embodied, he is a crazy old loon who lives in a mud hut. In the prequels, Yoda's "awesome" moments are when he is commanding soldiers or dueling villains. In the Original Trilogy, it's when he's training Luke how to overcome his fears and self-doubts. Yoda's exile taught him something that made him different than who he was. And when he died, he too became a force ghost.
The proposition here, is that becoming a Force Ghost is a sort of "ascension to a higher purpose" that only happens to Jedi who are *balanced* in the Force. The old Jedi were too ordered, and the Dark Side were too chaotic, so none of them ever manifested to the higher form.
And now we arrive at Luke Skywalker. In the original trilogy, he is trained by Obi-Wan and Yoda to be a "Jedi", but he is much more connected to his feelings than the earlier teachings. He feels a strong connection to "good", and is a driving beacon of hope for the entire Rebellion. He alone believed that Darth Vader could be turned back to good, and he was correct. But in the new movies, he grew older and more jaded. When he tried to replicate something like the old Jedi order, it failed, and created the monster Kylo Ren, not unlike Anakin had become.
So instead he sought out the most ancient of Jedi teachings, going back to the very roots of the religion. The Light/Dark dichotomy that he expresses to Rey is much more in-line with this "grey Jedi" philosophy, and Luke seems to suggest that this is what he learned in coming to the sight of the oldest Jedi temple. But despite this new knowledge, he has cut himself off from the force (and, by extension, from Life). Whereas Yoda lived in solitude surrounded by life and connected to the force, Luke had abandoned it. Luke hasn't found balance, he has removed the scales completely.
Luke tries to pass this information on to Rey, to show her that the answer is neither Light nor Dark, but Balance. Instead, she sees only "I can turn Kylo back to the Light", while Kylo is only interested in turning Rey to the Dark. In Force Awakens, we see that she is enamored of the old stories about the rebellion against the empire, and the Heroes who did it. Like Kylo worshiping a parody of Darth Vader, Rey takes on the task of trying to turn him as Luke had turned Vader. But both of them are trying to replicate the stories without learning the lessons that those people had actually learned.
Luke, distraught that his newfound understanding was insufficient, decides to burn it to the ground. Everything he had understood wasn't enough to prevent Ben Solo from becoming Kylo Ren, and this new notion of seeking Balance in the Force wasn't enough to set Rey straight (or so he thought). He is experiencing psychological disintegration, adrift and unsure of anything. But before he can destroy the foundation of his worldview, Yoda beats him to the punch. Yoda *saves* Luke from actually committing the final act of destruction. It's not about burning down the ancient ways, but preventing Luke from being the one who does it. Furthermore, we see later that the books didn't burn anyways, because Rey had them. Surely Yoda was aware of this when he burned down the temple. So we see that Yoda is still the master, and Luke still the student with lessons to learn.
With renewed purpose and belief, Luke returns to the Force, and in the end we see him face Kylo Ren just as Obi-Wan had faced Darth Vader. And just as that encounter had ended, so too did Luke die by fading away. We don't know yet if he will become a Force Ghost. We don't know if he was balanced enough in the end to have reached that place. But since Obi-Wan and Yoda both faded away in death and became ghosts later, I think we will see Ghost!Luke in Episode 9.
I don't entirely know if I made any kind of coherent point in this post. I think I spent too long writing it in the wee hours of the morning.
Long story short, Disney isn't getting another dime from me, probably ever.
Same here
I dont believe that for a second. people cant get enough of this escapist, entertainment crap.
There is nothing wrong with occasional escapist entertainment crap, as long as it is escapist and entertainment. This turd of a bunch of pictures and sounds strung together is neither escapist nor is it entertainment.
So just to make sure you're aware that means. No Marvel. No Star Wars. No Pixar. No Fox. No ABC. No ESPN. No Touchstone pictures. No A&E. No History Channel. So umm good luck with that.
Wade Wilson done and done. Easy.
8:00 there is a sort of explanation in the fact that she does not fear the dark side. Like at all, as Luke said. This trilogy seems to be attempting to merge the two sides of the force, the male and female aspects. She has no idea what she is doing but she manages to do it anyway, indicating that maybe she isn't the one doing it at all. Like she seems surprised that the rocks moved. If Luke can project from that distance and Yoda can cause lighting strikes post-death, and Snokes isn't the one causing Rey and Kylo to be having visions, some other force may be at play. Her vision I think says a lot, though I can't verbalize exactly what.
So basically we're watching fanfiction StarWars since episode.7 thanks
I've been watching your videos for some time now. Finally signed up to be a patreon member today! (Been waiting eagerly for your take on 'Last Jedi'). Thank you for all your great content on symbolism, Johnathan. Keep it up!
I was confused by Rose's statement only in that she very well could have killed herself in saving Finn...she almost did...and then a whole lot of the people they loved were killed because of her actions. It's irrational. I was quite disturbed that Rose thought it was necessary to free the animals but leave the children in slavery (but hey, she did give a kid a rebel secret decoder ring! Why did I think about A Christmas Story and the Little Orphan Annie Decoder device that was just another advertisement?). It also seemed like they'd use some new force power to get someone out of a jam. I'd say it was Deus ex Machina, but the Force is no Deus. Maybe it's Disney Ex Machina. Simple military order in the Rebel ranks would have prevented much of the problems between Poe and Holdo. What admiral doesn't share the plans with the junior officers? They had just witnessed most of their high officers obliterated in a single attack. If something like that had happened again and Holdo was killed, how would they have been able to implement any plan that was in place? The whole male female dynamic was condescending at best and insulting at worst. What a mess! (and just a petty complaint: Poe was a Commander - a naval rank equivalent to Major, I believe. He was then busted to captain, but if they are using the naval ranks, then becoming a captain would be a promotion, not a demotion. He should have been a major busted to captain or a commander busted down to a lieutenant or lieutenant commander. I'm not even a big military buff and I caught that oddity.
This movie lost me when Leia flew in space. After that everything was downhill...
Just ranting...not making any cogent points about the movie..just ranting away.
Great review! Your solution to the symbolic "problem" in Star Wars is how I have always viewed it. A New Hope shows us a fallen and inverted world.
That cave sequence was inverted. Usually it''s the masculine hero that goes into darkness and bring backs something of value. Interestingly, she goes down into the darkness and brings nothing back. Funny how it works out that she's unable to bring back absolutely zero value.
No wonder I found it so distasteful and unfulfilling.
As the instinctual rule I would argue tend towards females being born with inherent value, only to see it diminish with time. I guess it does make sense why the cave scene played out the way it did.
Aaron Peters well said. I agree 100 percent. Man you hit it on the head symbolically speaking.
So yea in a way it played out the way it should.
Honestly it played out the way it would have. Her thinking she could change a bad boy.
Aaron Peters Beautifully and effectually stated, Aaron...Thank you.
Go watch he film again you might spot deeper meaning to how things play out.
In Luke's cave scene and Ray's cave scene they both are confronted by what they fear the most, what is holding them back the most. For Luke it's fear of turning to the dark side. For Rey it's being alone, that are parents are truly gone and being responsible for own future. In both cases it's not clear right away what they take away from the experience.
Rey's narration in the scene is actually her replaying it to Kylo/Ben about the experience during the Force connection right after, and the Force bond that has been forged with Kylo/Ben she has a vision that a redeemed Ben is the saviour rather than herself. Later at end of the throne scene Kylo has seemingly fulfilled her vision of him turning, but then in twist Kylo's offer his hand to Rey with an offer to lead the First Order together. He even uses her family issues to try manipulate her, as foreshadowed by the cave scene. However, she rejects this offer and she complete's the lesson, she turns her back on the dark side as Luke did, and returns to help her friends. By the end of the film she has passed her trial, she stops looking back to her past and her parents, she rejects the dark side, she finally accepts her own responsibilities and what she can and needs to contribute.
For Luke in the Return of the Jedi his cave lesson was only complete when he rejected the darkside in the throne room battle and threw away his lightsaber.
I didn't really think about this before, but as you kinda mentioned: The light and the dark side of the force does not really correspond to Yin and Yang, or Chaos and Order. More to 'feelings' like anger/fear vs tranquility and hate vs love, but the dark side thereby obviously contains both chaos and order, and the light side also contains both.
I reject the idea of getting rid of tradition, history, lineage, and even priviledge. Note that hard core liberals do not value order and are overly inclined to subvert and toss aside social conventions. They are too high in openness and too low in conscientiousness to govern or even discipline themselves effectively.
Great video. I found myself agreeing with most of what you said. I enjoyed _The Last Jedi,_ for the most part, but I felt that the movie was always going out of its way to belittle the fans for caring about the history and traditions of the series, and the so-called “Legacy characters” from the original trilogy.
One small correction I’d like to make, though: Darth Vader was not part of the Empire’s formal command structure, so he was separate from the bureaucratic nightmare of the Empire.
You sent so many shivers down my spine, holy moly, bravo bravo bravo
I actually loved TLJ ( I admit that I cringed a few time during the film but not enough to spoil it ) and I didn't understood why people were so split about it , but now I do . It's really anjoyable to hear your point of view because it's constructed , you have argument and you don't just say " It's a crappy film" and you're not making fun of thos who liked it .
ps: sorry about my english , it's not my first language
Oh my God it just hit me. The reason I hate Rey as a female lead is because she's androgynous looking. It's all a Freudian androgynous wish-fulfillment, that the feminine could manage the masculine, that there no longer needs to be these mutable bodily bounds preventing us from reaching a whole within one person. Just as they throw out the limitations of existence as a single sex, they throw out the limitations of the character-- she can do everything, and has no flaws. Just as in the movie, the only thing preventing this theoretical dream of androgyny is the "oppressive structure", keeping us in the "prison" of our gender roles, since, according to their thought, body and experience don't matter, only desire.
OH MY GOD SHE IS HER OWN ORIGIN, she gives birth to herself! Another wish of androgyny, that one person could be their own parents, as both roles.
I wonder if the name Rey could be interpreted using both masculine and feminine symbolism, like 'Ray' for (ray of) light and consciousness, and something else.
Нова "Rey" as in a beautiful ray of sunshine.
In Final Fantasy 13 they based the female main character's design on an actual androgynous person, said main character is also without fault and is a super hero.
Yes yes, that in general. I'm not convinced "womb envy" is the right term, and the motives for the development of the other side of that theory (feminism) are questionable, but I do think that the reverse is as plausible: that a young boy find envy in the idea of being a mother, and is annoyed that reality won't let them be one. I mean, kids will be jealous of a damn piece of colored paper so it's not absurd to think that a boy could be jealous of all sorts of aspects that he lacks but sees in girls. There's a great book on this called Sex and Fantasy by Robert May. Though it's possible that the cultural phenomenon could be understood as a one sided female-to-maleness, I think it's more accurate to see things as a dream of androgyny where either sex can be the other, and a single person can embody both. Let's not forget that there's plenty to envy of being a woman, and plenty for them to be grateful, glad, perhaps even proud about, i.e. creating life.
I read the other day in Midsummer Night's Dream a great analogy for sex roles: vines wrapped around an elm tree. The tree provides support for the vines, the vines provide _fruit_
Hmmm that's interesting. I have seen references to young female characters as being 'like sunshine' (Russian term for endearment for women: солнечка, or "little sun"/starling) so maybe the image of the Sun is in fact an ambiguous one that comes out in her name.
I don't think she looks androgynous. She looks feminine to me.
what I disliked too was the scene of Fynn describing the destruction in the casino as worthwhile and the absolute cuteification of nature - i mean not even the supposed ice planet kills you any more (that you would have to cut open an animal to keep yourself warm), it's a salt planet now
The view that one will win by saving those we love over destroying those we hate is clearly a feministic view i.e., more nurturing, defensive, (seemingly) safe, unwilling to risk. This is a clear rebuttal to the more masculine view of aggressively standing up to and even striking out to destroy the enemy, which is definitely a higher risk option and may result in more bloodshed (at the start), but also more likely to actually save those that one loves. I recall this being mentioned (by a woman writer, but can't recall her name now) who proposed a thesis that if men were not willing to 'strike out' (in business, exploration, war, etc.) we'd all still live in caves and die early deaths. She argued that if women were in charge, the latter would be our result, whereas (as messy and often badly done) men being in charge will result in thriving civilizations that offer more opportunity to succeed and more likely open the door to reformist movements that will soften the rough edges and enhance liberty and a reasonable level of equality among its populace.
The name of the woman is Camille Paglia.
No, it was another writer who did a historical study on the issue. Although I am quite aware that Paglia has said many similar things.
The conflict between 'saving those we love' against 'destroying those we hate' is an integral motif to star wars. The motivations and conflict of Anakin Skywalker in the prequel trilogy can be described and represented in this way. All the same, Luke Skywalker's signature decision to avoid destroying Darth Vader or the Emperor out of hatred or with aggression, but instead to put faith in the good of his father, as an expression of familial faith or love has been the icon of what we as an audience understand to be the greatest virtues of the 'light side'.
The entire cross-generational skywalker arc of the original 6 movies is dependent upon this idea.
I won't disagree that the scene in last jedi was bad, and the relationship between the characters was unsatisfying, but don't for a moment pretend that this is somehow new, or somehow different than what we've had for decades. Your prejudice against things you label as 'feminist' not withstanding.
You know that last scene with rose would have at least been bearable if she had just said something along the lines of "we've already lost too many people" or to be more personal "I can't lose you too" It would still be cheesy and kind of cringy and waste what could have been an amazing end to Finn's character, but it would at least be logical.
Oh yeah, the dialogue was awful. But was it worse than the worst of Lucas? :P
I suspect looking at the Force symbolism Kabbalistically makes a lot more sense. The dark side being ruled by Thagirion, which means the disputers, the painful movers, and the demons called the Zomiel are attributed to it, great black giants that are always working against each other. Meanwhile the positive aspect, Tiferet is the sephirah of harmony, and the balance of different forces, which in particular balances the giving powers of Chesed, Loving kindness, with the restaining power of Geburah, restraint. Implicit in the idea of balancing and synthesis is also the idea of stress and strain, and the swinging backwards and forth between the different forces. Chesed and Geburah often work against each other, and the pendulum must be allowed to swing between them. If the pendulum is forced to stay still, in the middle, due to an excess of Tiferet, then undue stress and pain is felt, as these forces are not given room to breathe. Therefore Tiferet, beauty, becomes Thagirion, the disputers.
Mostly stolen from Wikipedia, because I'm lazy.
To try and justify the very ordered structure of the Empire: it is my understanding (although I have not read the book) that Plato's Republic talks about how a society dominated by its passions (a democracy) will lead to the rise of a tyrant, if only some demagogue promises to satisfy everyone's passion. Maybe that is the relation between the Dark Side (passions) and the Empire (tirany)
This was an exceptional video essay critique of the Star Wars universe and its evolution. You clearly explained it's many contradictions without being overtly critical or negative. Thank you Jonathan. I'm excited to watch your other videos. Subscribed!
Thanks to listening to Jordan Peterson talk about Pinocchio, I recognised the symbology of when Rey blasted a hole in the Jedi temple wall. It's like when Pinocchio uses fire to escape the whale's belly.
Thank you for such a well-spoken and articulate video! I enjoyed listening to it and your explanation about the deconstruction of the saga. The lack of training, the lack of a mentor (and the need for a mentor), the "democratic" idea that the Force is for everyone, no need for family or origin stories, and the nagging demand to be "protected" from tyranny rather than fight it on the offense...it just broke down everything people loved about Star Wars in the first place.
I remember watching Rey's trip into the cave showing just endless mirrors of herself and thinking it was a symbol of narcissism.
Consciously or unconsciously the left understood that it is through story that it can have the largest and most significant impact. Fighting myth in its own lair, the domain of story. Creatively oriented individuals who oppose the radical social justice doctrines that are currently shoved down audience’s throats worldwide should really make the effort, as writers, filmmakers, graphic novel creators, (basically ‘story weavers’ in general) to lay the foundations for an alternative to the radical inversion that is currently underway. I also believe that it very likely that a whole new market is soon going to emerge for a new breed of more traditionally and archetypically themed stories. After all, about fifty percent of us are getting really tired of constantly being fed leftist 'Crypto-neomarxist' propaganda everywhere we turn.
Right. I don't like this marxist, post-modernist, deconstructing, pc sjw bs. Notice that the movie itself attacks the very ideas of value, purpose, meaning, attachment, curiousity, history, legacy, growth etc.
Only in fiction does Cultural-Trotskism actually work! -D
Your work has been earth shattering for me. I can’t thank you enough.
The dichotomy of the light and dark side of the force, at least when it comes to jedi and sith, is more about pasions like hate, rage, etc. The jedi seek order and temperance. The jedi in their search of balance (order) are defeated and the empire rises (too much order).
Thats why luke wins in the 6th episode, because he is in between, he wins the fight using the rage, but he has the peace of mind to resist the totalitarian rule of the empire and bring his father around.
This is also seen in the color of their lightsabers,blue for jedi, red for sith, but Qui-Gon Jinn (called a gray jedi) and luke have green wich are not a mix of red and blue, but is the third primary color, meaning a third way.
The dark tones in the imagery of the emperor is because we are watching the movie from the point of view of the rebels, we dont know how the empire shows itself to their people, since we dont see any of the planets they rule.
Still TLJ and TFA have deeper problems with tthe plot that are never explained, like how the resistance is so small and the 1st order so big if the republic has been in power for 30 years.
This is an amazing explanation. I could see this in wisecrack video explaining the philosophy of the movie.
"It's time for the Jedi to end." = Translation: "God is dead."
That was the theme of Last Jedi.
So glad you were convinced to record this review, it was excellent.
Although I agree with your very insightful analysis. I can also imagine a scenario in which Luke discards the ancient tradition of the Jedi tradition in a way that's similar to the ending of the Buddhist classic "Monkey: Journey to the West." Basically, the heroes of that tale embark on an arduous quest to retrieve sacred ancient Buddhist scriptures only to discover in the end that the scrolls are blank. I can see Luke coming to a similar conclusion about the Jedi tradition, only not in the nihilistic way portrayed in "Last Jedi" but in the way "Monkey" conveys that the experiential aspect of the religion is perhaps more crucial the written tradition. I could also imagine this new insight influencing how Luke and Rey work together in a complementary way during the training in which Luke re-experiences the Force manifested in a new way through her (which reinvigorates his heroic journey) and she learns from him how to delve into and exert some discipline on this new manifestation (which gives her focus and purpose). Of course, I think your analysis captures how the movie didn't do that and chose instead to push a more postmodernist view. The franchise as well as fans of the movie are the spiritually poorer for it.
@Jonathan Pageau you hit the nail on the head-many people theorize that this new Star Wars has essentially been JJ Abrams’s fan fiction
This video is brilliant
This the best analysis of TLJ I've ever seen (and I've seen a lot). Wish I would have watched it earlier. Thanks, Jon.
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. Star Wars
3. Return of the Jedi/Rogue One/Force Awakens
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Episode I
6. Attack of the Clones
7. Ewoks: The Battle for Endor
8. Star Wars Holiday Special
9. Ewoks: Caravan of Courage
10. The Last Jedi
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. Star Wars
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Episode I
6. Attack of the Clones
There are no more Star Wars films
I would have ROTJ by itself in 3rd and RO and TFA tied for 4th.
Lol what the.... is the phantom menace now the movie that shall only be known as episode one? Get it together guys.
Hail To The Chin Ha! I love the extra films burying that crap excuse for a saga film....
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. Star Wars
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Episode I
6. Attack of the Clones
7. Ewoks: The Battle for Endor
8. Star Wars Holiday Special
9. Ewoks: Caravan of Courage
10. The Force Awakens/Rogue One
11. The Last Jedi
Very well 'dismantled'. Some of your points, especially those about too much order and too much light, are also why I like the prequels most: They portray Anakin sort of as a 'Snowflake' brittle and unique. He goes down a path very he is told he is special and therefore demands too much, and when he is rejected the rank of master he turns to the dark side for support. Because he also thinks he "can do the job of the king better than him", so to say.
It sucked. Two words are all that is needed.
No buddy, it needs more than that. This is the age of the well-cracfted/educated/well-measured criticisms, otherwise you'll be labelled as a "insert tarnishing label here" on the public forum in order to dismiss your experience and existence.
Oscar Geronimo, unfortunately we live in a time of sound bites; that most want information condensed for easier consumption because they may not want to give up the time to delve into the reasoning behind the quick assessment. George Orwell predicted this sort of thing in “1984”; that we just need or want to know is if something was good, somewhat good/bad, or that it sucked, so that they don’t waste their time on it.
But since you feel it needs more, I’ll say this - “it sucked balls”.
I liked Mr. Pageau's version better.
This is the best analysis of this move I've seen so far.
Hodo: follow orders, don’t question
Me: like the first order?
Hodo: triggered
This is the best Star Wars video I've seen. It blew my mind!!!
Thank you for your analysis. I think you have many key presuppositions wrong though.
#1) The Empire in the original trilogy does not represent order. Order is represented through the Jedi (Obiwan and Yoda) and in the final act of Return of the Jedi as Luke. Darth Vader also represents order as well through his whole arc but you must divorce Vader from the Empire. Vader (order) is USED by the Empire but they arent its manifestation. The reason you are having a hard time making sense of the Empire is because its actually a Tower of Babel story. The Empire IS The Tower of Babel. It is authoritarian, collectivist and is man who has forsaken his religious roots (See the exchanges between Vader and the generals, Vader operates outside of the Empire in many ways). It is rationality without morals, governance without purpose and might without wisdom.
#2) The First Order in the new trilogy is actually social justice. It is not masculinity and order per se, it is the animus of the female. The reason all the males in the First Order and incompetent is because femininity is trying to be masculine and being incompetent at doing so. (I would also add all the female officers in the resistance are incompetent as well) Look at the whole film as the inner projection of social justice ideology. Kathleen Kennedy and the movement she is trying to instill forsakes the true path of the individual, regardless of the yin/yang (masculine/feminine) conceptual framework and becomes its own Tower of Babel.
The original series is the internal reflection of the individual itself represented through the twins of Luke and Leia. The new series is the internal reflection of neo-marxist post modernism (a false order, a false idol) and will not be timeless, grow old and be forgotten like the Matrix sequels.
On your point about "the animus of the female", understand that there is an anima, and an animus. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus) When you say animus of the female, it is unclear as to whether or not you are talking about the female equivalent to the animus (the anima), or about the woman's inner masculine personality (animus). Could you clarify?
woman's inner masculine personality.
Note that the feminists despise the feminine and wish women were like and would replace men while at the same time deriding true masculinity as being toxic (reckless, destructive, oppressive, predatory and the like). Also note that the jedi were also collectivist and repressed and ignored the emotional needs of individuals.
I’m watching this again 2 years later. Spot on. What an awful mess we have made allowing a utopian imaginative world manifest into real life. Order can’t come out of chaos. Chaos just needs to run out of gas.
I've said it before and feel even more strongly after seeing The Last Jedi. Star Wars is a poorly written story, it is a mess just like our culture. A good story helps people move forward in their own reality but in contrast Star Wars is sloppy and confusing.
It felt empty to me. I enjoyed watching it, but after it ended nothing lingered. After New-Years I saw "The Worthy" and it's now one of my all time favorite movies (up there with The Big Lebowski and Repo Man). Just throwing it out there. It really blew my mind! :-D
Have to agree,a mess like your culture!
A. My culture?
B. The culture of my country?
C. The culture of the west?
D. The culture of the world?
E. All of the above!
Didn't used to be.
You know, I don't think I've ever written that phrase out before now, and now that I look at it, I'm not sure that it makes grammatical sense.
Great video; you've clearly thought more carefully and deeply about this than anyone who was involved in creating it.
There really isnt anything deep. This movie is made for children, the test audiences were 10 year olds.
This explains all the plotholes, the kids wouldnt notice or care. This explains the buffoon villains.
This explains all the cutesy creatures, max xmas profit in merch. This explains the childish jokes.
This explains why Leia and Holdo acted like soccer moms instead of realistic military leaders.
THIS EXPLAINS CANTO BIGHT: The sequence is there to introduce the wish fulfillment audience analogues,
the slave kids. The kid with unexplained force powers in particular, placed at the very end,
would make the kid audience jump with ecstasy. Disney, turning Star Wars into Frozen.
you gotta get em while they are young
That was the best analysis I've heard yet of why the movie didn't live up to the themes and symbols of the franchise. Thanks for sharing.
The reversals of the Apollonian/Dionysian conflict in Star Wars is a very interesting aspect of the films, and one of the strange bits that throws up cognitive dissonance.
Personally, I have a very hard time with the character of Rey. On the one hand, yes, she is a perfect infallible character... on the other, she follows a feminine path towards maturity, one VERY different than the male path. She does not need to train, or face trials to "become a man/jedi" the way Luke does, because that is not how girls mature... it is by the very decree of nature, of enough time having passed, that girls become women, and so it is with Rey: there is no journey to be had... she is more prop or MacGuffin than a character because of it. The same is true with Leia in the original trilogy, and with Padme in the prequels, though less notable because they *aren't the main characters*. I prefer this to the "man with tits" trope, but it still leaves me with a character devoid of any arc. It's only Luke, Finn, Poe, and yes, even Kylo Ren who get to mature. Han Solo had more of a character arc in The Force Awakens then Rey did, because she is nothing but a plot device... something for the men to fight over.
The fact Mary Sue characters follow the feminine path to maturity makes me suspect that it has less to do with our "fantasizing" or our world being upside down, and more to do with the increasing prevalence of women who are able to tell their stories (though this itself could be used as evidence of an upside down world). The harlequin romance novel whose female lead is *not* a Mary Sue are few and far between.
One More MGTOW very insightful and im obliged to agree.
One More MGTOW Interesting comment, thanks. I had no problems with her character in TFA, that was her arc there. I lost interest in her character in TLJ. Its a shame because i was interested how they'd portray a girl on the hero's journey.
There is more to being a mother than giving birth, and so much of the breakdown today is because the passing of knowledge of what it is to be a good mother (and father) has been massively distrupted. This is something that also effects animals right down to rats.
nektulosnewbie Very true, and this is something that the SJWs are actively renouncing. They believe all of us women are naturally born to be IRL Mary Sues if only men weren't "holding us down".
It's stupid and dangerous.
I've seen even in animals how much the knowledge of proper parenting can affect the development of babies (except of course with animals like fish and amphibians, for instance).
Marmoset society is a matriarchy, BUT fathers are crucial to the success of the babies. Wolf society is a patriarchy, BUT mothers are crucial to the success of the babies. And both parents need to watch and learn from their own parents and grandparents.
There's this insidious belief now that just existing, especially if you're a "woman of color" like I am, makes our "lived experience" sufficient for success -- if only "They" (the Big Bad Cis White Hetero Men) weren't "oppressing us".
That's why feminists like Rian Johnson don't see any reason to honor Rey with a heroic character arc, and why he takes such delight in destroying Luke.
Luke was always a hero for me since I was a child, and it never once mattered that he was a White man. He was a character who grew into our hearts and imaginations because of the quality of his character.
The thing that is really insidious about this is that if you raise the next generation of women to believe it, you set them up for a lifetime of failure which "confirms" their belief that they are oppressed victims.
So, rather than empowering women and making them full fledged members of society (an absolutely desirable goal supported by classic liberalism and humanism), the goal becomes preserving the resistance movement itself by perpetuating injustices to maintain the unearned political power that the leaders of the movement crave.
All of this at the expense of the long term welfare of women and minorities (men too, so in fact everyone), which is utterly evil.
There is no doubt that this is happening, whether by accident or design. There is a strong push to regard achievement as unearned privilege and decry knowledge, competency, understanding as "masculine" and oppressive.
Examples:
bit.ly/2r0EQZp
bit.ly/2DrzjOaz
bit.ly/2D6xARe
This reminds me of a saying we have in the army: "you do not rise to the ocasion, you sink to your level of training".
49% on rotten tomatoes XD
Mr. Nice!
Come on, 48!
And Justice League is in the high 70s. I love how audience scores on RT never mattered until TLJ came out.
James Justice League has plenty of flaws, but it's a much better movie than TLJ. Audience scores have always been important it's just convenient for people like you to act like they weren't because you're brainwashed and disliking a obvious propaganda piece goes against how you've been told to think.
James Fontana
I've always paid more attention to audience score if I'm deciding to watch a movie.
Also, Disney has tried to bully large news organizations that gave bad reviews by banning their employees from all Disney owned events (didn't end well for Disney, but it shows their corporate intentions). That makes smaller outlets and critics (who depend on early access screenings for their jobs) completely unreliable as bad reviews could get you blacklisted from upcoming Star Wars and Marvel movies that account for literal billions of dollars in the movie industry.
Mors Coronam i learned the hard way, thats the right thing to do
For a video you didn't want to do, this was supremely excellent
Spaceballs is a more credible Star Wars movie then the Lsst Jedi
Here is my take on it:
The Sith are supposed to revel in passions and conflict. They aspire to personal power and freedom. As such they bring utter chaos. The apparent contradiction that puzzles you, namely why the rule of the Sith comes in the form of the seemingly orderly Empire, is simply due to the fact that it is the embodiment of the power and freedom of just one Sith - the Emperor. After all, what is a tyranny (no matter how orderly it may appear to be on the outside) but the arbitrary rule and whim of the tyrant?
Do you think this perspective is the world view of the “majority” or the world view of the “minority" who make these films? Or does it reflect our collective confusion?
I remember leaving the cinema after watching “The Force Awakens” and feeling muddled. The way a lie can leave you feeling unaligned with yourself.
But who’s telling the lie, ( if it is even a lie )? Is it our lie reflected back in our stories or is it the lie of an ideology propagating itself through film?
It's a pernicious mixture, I think. The minority who push it end up supported by a majority who look at the outer wrapping, think it is a good thing (because it superficially looks like a human rights movement) and never look deeper into the true nature of what it is all about.
Add to this, the ideas are always framed in terms that make it look as if anyone who disagrees is some sort of a misogynist or racist.
"The effects of framing can be seen in many journalism applications. With the same information being used as a base, the "frame" surrounding the issue can change the reader's perception without having to alter the actual facts. In the context of politics or mass-media communication, a frame defines the packaging of an element of rhetoric in such a way as to encourage certain interpretations and to discourage others. For political purposes, framing often presents facts in such a way that implicates a problem that is in need of a solution. Members of political parties attempt to frame issues in a way that makes a solution favoring their own political leaning appear as the most appropriate course of action for the situation at hand." - Wikipedia
It is perncious nihilistic destructive crap. Reject it.
An excellent review from a perspective I hadn't heard. Well done.
Fascinating video, thanks Jonathan. Can you help me understand a) is Christ a Mary Sue inasmuch as, apart from a brief childhood sequence, he appears effectively as an adult with all his wisdom and skills and a fully rounded and perfect personality but without having to 'work' to get there? b) If so is Rey a christ-like figure?
If you think about the possible future story for Episode IX, Rey could be a redeemer to bring Kylo Ren back to the light. If this saga is still supposed to be about the Skywalkers, than Ben/Kylo is not totally lost. Rey's character may be intentionally overpowered because she will be a messianic figure, in the end, saving the only surviving Skywalker. It will be like the prequels where Anakin is saved.
In order to Rey be a Christ-like figure she must be crucified and the end of the ep.9
I suggest Mel Gibson as the director.
I sure would buy the ticket.
She's Mary
I think you might be confusing a lack of sin and shortcoming for a lack of struggle a d temptation. Christ experienced both, exemplified by Satan's temptations of Jesus in his period of weakness in the desert and by his struggle and anxiety but ultimate submission to the will of God in the garden of Gethsemene prior to his arrest, trial and crucifixion.
Really liked your analysis! I recognized a lot of weird moments but could not articulate them so well. Already shared your video with some friends.
To me, the FORCE is neither dark, nor light, it just is. It's energy, power. Force-users can tap into it, manipulate it in various ways, then use it for good or bad.
I thoroughly enjoyed this video. Glad it randomly popped up.
I have been uncomfortable with the last few Star Wars movies. The SJW theme was blatant but I also felt the characters' axioms were not fully developed to the point that a viewer could be expected to accept them as authentic. As you discussed, the hierarchy included leaders with gigantic deficits in competency skills and there was significant negative male messaging. Most troubling to me was the latest SOLO movie. Qi'ra scares me. She is beautiful and at times the victim, but it is all a mask. She is amoral. Wondering when you will present your impressions of SOLO?
You earned a subscriber - I really enjoy the way you assess things.
What I always found odd was the threat of death from Vadar and the Emperor to their own troops and minions. Why do these guys want to be generals and admirals? When them being in a bad mood could get you killed? The Empire would not last that long, anyone with any brains would get out. I suppose you could make an argument that over a whole galaxy, most people would have very little contact with the Empire, so maybe they could limp along for a while, but there is no future in it. Just like with the Sith, with every apprentice killing their master, no future there either (but that makes sense since they are chaos).
Sun bro
1. North Korea pulls it off
2. It didn't last that long anyways
Roger Theil North Korea is a good example. However, they have an enemy they can instill fear in the populace, that their dear leader is rhe only one keeping US from slaughtering them. This element seems to be missing for the Empire. But it is an interesting point that as long as leaders of chaos can keep fueling the chaos, hy csn stay in charge (top of the stucture). It is just that most stuctures can ot endure the ever increasing drive of chaos. Maybe. It's a theory?
Sun bro Nah, you're spot on. Idk how canon it is (I guess not at all now that Disney has taken over, but I don't really regard their opinion on what's canon let's be honest) but the Force Unleashed reveals that that was the reason behind the rebellion in the first place. Seems that not long after Palpatine took power, he started secretly networking with subversive factions to start a rebellion in order to root out his enemies and create a cause for continued weapons development for his military. So I think you're absolutely correct, and the rebellion was what was used to instill fear and encourage conformity and cooperation. We don't view the Rebellion as dangerous or scary, but we know them from movies made from its perspective, not Imperial propaganda.
Sun bro Very few of the admirals and captains were characterized well - most of them appear as faceless functionaries loyal to the Empire, but their interchangeability means there is little emotional impact when they suffer harm due to Vader's orders (except when he force chokes them).
For example, in *The Empire Strikes Back* there's a scene where the Millennium Falcon hides in an asteroid belt, and Vader recklessly puts the entire imperial fleet into danger in order to find them. There's a moment where Vader confronts his commanders in hologram form and one of them obviously dies as his hologram avatar dissolves _during_ _the_ _transmission_ - it's clearly meant to be a form of dark comic relief.
For me the point of those characters was to make the point that there is no one that Vader isn't willing to sacrifice to achieve his - or his master's - aims.
Those are the story reasons. For the in-world plausibility reasons for why the military commanders don't just defect or mutiny, _fear_ is the basic reason. The military and Vader are loyal to the Emperor. The military commanders fear Vader and the Emperor. The regional governors fear the military and their Death Star. The local systems fear the governors, and so on. That's one point I think was clearly established during the famous _I_ _find_ _your_ _lack_ _of_ _faith_ _disturbing_ scene.
RochesFan I get the fear element. However, if people around you are dropping like flies, your going to flee. Fear isn't stong enough in everyone to keep them rooted in place, because the fear of the now imminent death is competing against the fear of Vadar. We know why someone may willingly die in combat, but it isn't out of fear (the Japanese Kamikaze pilots, the Spartans rule of never retreat, or suicide bombers - none of these are fear based). It's funny, but the Empire seems to be lacking any reason for those in it, to stay in it, long term. You are correct, the comics and former EU did expand more on this, on Palpatine's machinations. God, I am going to miss when this channel gets bigger and these great discussions won't happen anymore. Enjoy it while it is here.
I agree with your criticisms of the new spate of Star Wars movies, but I don't see any inherent conflict in the idea of the Jedi being about control, but being opposed to the Empire, the ultimate order. The Jedi discipline is about choosing to master yourself, to establish self-control. The Empire is about the imposition of control onto others, be they willing or not.
Dead tradition isn't going to save the protagonists; they are going to live out something new. They have what they need within themselves...
ye, then stop eating, drinking and breathing as you have it all in yourself. doesn't work that way.
It always bothered me that she has such great skill without any training. Really hit the nail on the head with this one 👍
I've been very confused with the dark-side cave symbolism. The dark side hosts the First Order and the Empire which embody Order and power, yet the caves are places of chaos, self-reflection, and rebirth.
Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. How do these opposites contain themselves in the same side of the force?
Good point, That entire story arc was inverted. Usually it''s the masculine hero that goes into darkness and bring backs something of value. Interestingly, she goes down into the darkness and brings nothing back. Funny how it works out that she's unable to bring back absolutely zero value.
As the instinctual rule I would argue tend towards females being born with inherent value, only to see it diminish with time.
I'd argue the last bit is more something that has arisen with the loss of "grandmotherhood" due to the drop in the rate of population growth. The position I'd take with women and symbolism is that they are sustainers that keep things going and keep things from being lost.
God you wrote it twice. Just because you personally don't want to have sex with older women, doesn't mean they "diminish with time". That's the oldest shit in the sexist's book. News flash, women don't just exist for your use or pleasure.
You are right, they don't exist ONLY for my pleasure. Just as men don't only exist to give women attention. The human female exists in it's current form with the primary purpose of nurturing/facilitating life. They reward men that they deem as worthy of creating life with pleasure, they want to. This is where their primary value lies, and why a females overall value starts to decline once they are past their early 20's.
Nothing prejudice about this reality. Technology has allowed humanity to reduce the importance of this general rule, but it is still there. And, if we start another civilizational decline, looks like we will in part because women are neglecting or choosing to disregard this responsibility. This reality will amplify in importance once again. Just as it did after the fall of Rome.
The dark-side cave represents PHYSICAL ORDER but METAPHYSICAL CHAOS. Thus when entering the cave, you will be forced to reliquish or detach from control over your METAPHYSICAL IDENTITY / CHARACTERISTICS in order to reattach yourself to the PHYSICAL IDENTITY / CHARACTERISTICS of self. The part the hero needs to succeed on their journey. Thus this is why LUKE saw his face in VADERS MASK.. as the PHYSICAL WORLD is a metaphor for PATRIARCHY and the line of Fatherhood through the family line. You have to risk losing yourself METAPHYSICALLY / MENTALLY in order to reattach to that important aspect of self. Thats why the hero fears going there.. as you may 'lose your mind' and never escape. Die to who you think you are... and embrace who you are becoming.
This is what happened to 'Gazerbeam' in the Incredibles. .. he lost his METAPHYSICAL POWER and died in the cave.
I had no problem with Rey in VII, since I assumed that she was a Skywalker and her skills might make sense. However, with the most recent development (if the reveal in the latest movie is true), then she truly has her powers for no reason. A lot of people praised that, because it made her more relatable, and I also found it surprising that some people resented that the STAR WARS saga was about the Skywalkers to begin with. They resented the idea that talent is not evenly distributed throughout mankind and really want the idea represented on-screen that _anyone_ can be the Chosen One if they only believe. But I honestly don't think that it works that way, among other things because it was established in-canon that the Skywalkers are more powerful than anyone else. And it was also stated that the Skywalker family is the collective main character of the saga by both Lucas and Kennedy (and you will also find people who think that it's oppressive and unfair that a character has to be related to another character in order to be one of the main characters, which is even more ridiculous). At this point, I'm pretty annoyed with people and the way they're interpreting the saga.
The "contradictions" you point out aren't that contradictory. The Empire inherited the order of the Republic. Just because The Dark Side relies on negative emotions and letting go of discipline doesn't mean it can't also have structure. The Emperor's darkness isn't based on rage and anger, it's sinister, cold, and calculated. Order in and of itself is neither Dark nor Light. Many high functioning psychopaths and serial killers have an uncanny ability to keep up the appearance of order in their external lives to mask their internal chaos.
It also isn't strange to have aristocrats within a rebel movement. The American Revolution for example was spearheaded by people who could effectively be called aristocrats or the intelligentsia of their time, where you had slave owners fighting for individual freedom. Jesus lead an intellectual rebellion against the order of the Roman Empire, and while he was a humble son of a carpenter, he was also the supreme aristocrat because he's really the son of God. Moses also started off as part of the aristocracy.
Collectivist Imperialism is always easier to organize because conflict isn't tolerated (in the beginning of A New Hope we hear the Emperor permanently dissolved the Senate), whereas democracy or freedom is messy. The Rebels aren't trying to overthrow order itself, they're trying to overthrow an oppressive order, there is a difference. An abusive spouse can keep order, but it doesn't mean there can't be order without their abuse.
In today's society the "resistance" have aristocrats as well - the Hollywood elite (see: Golden Globes).
Often rebellions are led by dispossessed former aristocrats.
My thoughts exactly. It seems like the video maker is just looking for something to say.
I became a supporter today. Your videos are good and getting better.
I remember agreeing when Science Fiction author Mike Resnick said on the Dangerous Histroy Podcast, what he found stupid about the original story. It basically was to dethrone an Emperor and replace him with a Princess. So much for political progress...
This never bothered me too much, kind of like you need a monster to fight a monster, royalty to fight royalty. Besides, they were always going to restore the Republic, that was the goal.
But is it really a Republic, if there are Princes running around?
KIDWITDEGUN yes. England has a queen. It isn't a monarchy.
Well, in reality the British (really German) Monarchs blackmail the politicians with pedophilia, but technically you are right.
Did Leia put herself into power at the end of return of the jedi? I don't think she did...
Your analysis is, as always, brilliant.
The plot died with Snoke.
Star Wars died with Luke
Nah this was just a bad fanfiction. It will in years to come not even be considered canon. Disney will run the franchise into the ground and eventually sell it off to someone else. Star Wars will survive this age of darkness. It's just a shame that all the OT actors will be dead and were wasted like this. They had a once in a lifetime opportunity and wasted it. That's what really sucks.
Julie M There was a plot ?
I really agree with what you said.
I Think the shifting Ideals comes from the fact that Lucas is no longer in charge, and this new vision is someone else entirely.
I assumed Rey (of light) was a parallel to Jesus. Incorruptible, forgiving, will always try to save someone. That's why her parents are herself, just like Jesus is his own father. Her vision in the cave was the Buddist thing Jordan Peterson talked about - the ideal being repeated down through history. Perhaps Anakin was one of those but screwed it up?
And the force (holy spirit) is with Rey - she's been trained by it unknowingly all her life.
I seen the biblical parallel to David. David was a lowly shepherd, he got really good with a sling, when he has to take down Goliath it's like, "wait a minute! I've become an expert in slinging rocks over the years! That's the perfect way to whack him!"
Therefore Rey knew how to fix and fly the falcon because she's a scavenger. She knows how to use a light sabre because she's been whacking potential rapists off with that stick thing her all her life. Waiting for her parents to come back - there's patience learned.
It's like she had no bible/religion (Jedi) but the holy spirit (force) was teaching her indirectly all along. And don't they say the function of religion should be to guide people to spirituality? She was already there.
Seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven. Where's the Kingdom of Heaven? The Kingdom of Heaven is within you. So too is the force - you have that power too!
She even taught Luke a lesson. Remember Jesus, 12 years old, teaching the priests?
Plus I like female characters, SW is too dominated by males. It's nice to see a change up and a female lead character who isn't sexualised.
Andy Web I like where you're going with that. It makes me feel a little easier about all this. Rey isn't what bothers me about the movie but I didn't know why.
Go on :) spill the beans! I ain't no SJW.
notice how many powerful Star Wars characters come from the desert
anonymouse 99 Interesting point. Anakin, Luke, Rey. Even Obi-Wan in the original. That guy Max Von Sydow played also seemed a desert dweller. Just like the Old Testament. The Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T.E. Lawrence also mentions religion sprouting from desert dwellers.
Get a life Please
I feel like the point you're missing about the metaphysics of Star Wars in the first four minutes of the video is that the extreme order the empire embodoes is lifeless and mechanical. Where as the self realized path of the Rebels is dusty, material, and imperfect. You can see this expressed in the way the rebels order their military and hierarchy vs the way the empire's complete order and perfection. Perfection is unattainable by the physical world. And that is why the force is so conceivably popular amongst people. The spirtual path is a hard and messy road to take, it's nice to be able to see someone we can relate to on that.
I actually liked the movie. Not that I don't have my problems with it.
Couple of critiques though, Rey isn't as much of a Mary Sue as she appears at first glance. Her upbringing is very different from Luke, abandoned on her own. She's already an expert in melee weapons for instance, not because she wanted to, but because she had to be in order to survive. And a lightsaber is a melee weapon after all.
The Poe character arc in my view is about him becoming a leader in addition to becoming a hero. He can't figure out the difference between a calculated risk, which if it turns into a failure you can recover from. In contrast, a gamble is all in, failure of which might undue you completely. There's a time for that, but Poe doesn't have the wisdom to see that.
Which brings me to major problem with the movie. It's just too damn busy! We can't have POE stop learn, nor Rey, because we need a chase scene or something.
But overall, I did actually like the movie, for all its faults
You don't just suddenly become "an expert in melee weapons", it doesn't make sense in any way, even less so when she goes on to beat Kylo Ren who is the product of a line of masters. Not to mention she's been using a staff the whole time and suddenly is able to masterfully wield a sword.
The skill sets aren't that far apart. And Kylo was kind of shot in the gut. I'm not saying I don't have problems with the movie, I'm saying I enjoyed them and some of the reasons why.
But hey, who needs nuance?
I think it's fine to have a literary character that's seemingly good at everything - take Paul Atreides from Dune for example who literally becomes a god - the problem is when it makes no sense what the origin of these things are or what purpose they play in the themes of the story. Paul Atreides was literally genetically bred to be a super human and was raised/trained/educated by a royal family his whole life and constantly tested. He was important to the story for fulfilling the messiah role that was central to the plot regarding the economics/religions of that universe. He loses his father and his father's nation/state and is cast into the desert where he fulfills the Messiah status so at least he gets an arc. In Star Wars there's already been a "chosen one" character - his name was Anakin Skywalker and he was naturally gifted, only he fell to the dark side and became Vader (his arc).
With Rey we see that she grew up in harsh conditions and had to feed/defend herself, she salvages imperial/rebellion technology and learns piloting with salvaged training headsets. The problem is there's no hero's journey to be had as she never loses a battle or even remotely struggles with any task, there's no character arc as she has no love interests or personal struggles - even the question about her parents is easily dismissed for her. Her struggle with the dark side doesn't seem to affect her either. She starts on 3rd base and is casually walking in home runs all movie long, but even accepting that she doesn't affect the story much. Kylo Ren is a much better character with actual agency.
the ones that do not see it or deny it are in that world where the left or rebels fight for freedom using their power to be able to do anything so long as there is not someone holding them down be it real or in the group mind of that world view followed or brainwashed into. So long as you are not male of course as the gender aspect of this world view also is a factor.
This is why there was a huge fail and rejection of this movie as it is a refection of a view that while Hollywood and left followers want and think is right it is not that of a large part of America .
Most media has this TLJ world view that is shown and it is not holding to the way real world systems work, that is why the POTUS is who he is, it is why no one believes MSM news, it is why so many heavy reflected movies and shows are not popular or do not make what they are projected to make , people d not want it. its a core a world that is reflected as Mary sue, lazy humans being led like cows, by leaders that cannot lead as other ideals come before the meat and potatoes that need to be done like training learning etc.
America as a large prat still wants to be the Luke of old and work and train to reach the end to get the fairy tale ending and help people in the story to that goal.
dan Dude, She was allready (yeah that word ALLREADY proficient and reletively an expert in melee combat (She learned these skills on Jakku.) She knows how to use Lightsaber (roughly) because of this knowledge of melee combat that she ALLREADY has. Get it
I just discovered your channel. Can't wait to watch all your content!
LOL Here you are all confused. But, anyone who has played D&D knows that the OT Star Wars trilogy is just a battle between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Good.
The Empire was Lawful Evil. The important PCs driving the Empire were all Dark Side, passionate, driven by rage. They were _Chaotic_ Evil. That tension got a little bit of play in the originals, with Vader casually murdering Imperial officers.
This movie has it all muddled, without a real Good, and treating Order/Chaos incoherently.
No. They were not driven by rage. They used their anger. There is a difference. Darth Vader and Darth Sidious were both lawful evil. They wanted to bring peace and Order to the Galaxy.
Darth Vader the The Emperor (Darth Sidious) were not interested in "peace and order". They were hell-bent on the utter submission (or death) of any who opposed them. Assassination and murder is not "lawful evil" - just pure evil.
Sorry pal, you're wrong. Both Vader and sidious are legitimate authorities within the empire. Their acts may be evil, but they are entirely lawful. They are not agents of Chaos, like say The Joker Is.
Legitimate authorities? Emperor Palpatine's self-imposed authority - with the intent of of assassinating all Jedi (the previous lawful protectors of the peace) and blowing up planets of innocents/opposers - does not equate to lawfulness. He was an evil man who used others (Vader and the forces of the Empire) to spread fear, death, and chaos throughout the galaxy for his own greed of power and control.
Brilliant analysis! Helped me see the movie a lot more clearly! Thanks!