I have the Superlative Arms AGB DI on my 300blk and this was VERY informative testing. It makes sense than in restricted mode there is more gas staying behind the bullet beyond the gas port so a slight velocity advantage is to be had, however when you consider the nearly 10db lower noise at the ear in bleed off (likely do the the reduction in Port pop as pressure is released out the front of the gas block) it's clearly an advantage to use this system in bleed off mode! Very thorough and detailed testing! You've helped a ton of folks and I hope you feel good about that sir!
Just found your channel while researching Superlative Arms products. This was an impressive review and testing process. You have a new subscriber. Excellent work!
Really well done and informative video. This was exactly the information I was looking for on the superlative bleed off gas block. If only science class in school was like this video. Thanks
Michael, thanks for your patient and clear explanation of this very different system. Looking forward to building one! BTW, it's pretty clear at the sales sites and in the instructions received in the kit that this unit is NOT rated for 300 Blackout, so if anyone is planning a build, be aware of this.
Fantastic review. You this guy just saved me hours and ammo on the range. Great job. The video prior to this one was also very informational. His tests are thorough and his explanations are perfect. Can't say enough about this review.
Michael. What another wonderful and comprehensive review. I can't wait until my Superlative system arrives. Can you imagine the variables on an SBR with a restrictive muzzle break, ultra lo-mass buffer, low mass BCG, and the BFS trigger. I can hardly wait. Thanks again for a great video.
I went through 3 DIFFERENT springs so quickly to realize passing the fully open setting started the bleed off. I run my 11in SBR suppressed. I stayed at the 2-4 turn range(restrictive) for a while, caked up my bolt with carbon. This is the type of video that makes superlative arms hire you for business or just that my ADHD got the best of me and had you to thank.
Awesome video as always Mike. I just purchased this system, and spoke with Tony. He suggested a Heavy Buffer, so I purchased a 4.7oz buffer from Surplus Ammo. Now I'm looking for a proper barrel and handguard for the system to complete my project. I'm really looking forward to trying it.
Man these videos are fantastic. I’ve been eyeing this system to use on an upper I’m assembling using a Faxon 11.5in mid length barrel, and I am definitely getting one for it now!
Rzr2ffe Dude me too. If this combination works out, Triarc makes a mid length 12.5in barrel that I will definitely use for another upper build with this piston system
I noticed at about 15:20 when you were comparing restricted vs. Bleedoff, the ejection of the shells was quite different. About 1 o'clock for restricted and 3 o'clock for bleedoff. NIce analysis, thank you for sharing.
Dr. Bell, Thank you for sharing the extensive AR field reports with various configurations and modifications. I have enjoyed learning more about how these operate... A project I am considering includes use of 6.5 Grendel 20" AR as a light caliber deer rifle for 150-200 pound Midwestern / Missouri farmland deer.
I just did a 6.5 Creedmoor build on a small frame 308. I have not done a 6.5 Grendel build but I think it would make a good hunting platform. I am going to try to take a dear on our property with a 6.8 SPC AR this year.
Thank you Dr. Bell, FYI: My brother just completed his 6.5 Grendel build using a Mag Tactical lower {aka Fostech} and a Bear Creek Arsenal Upper with 20" nonfluted Heavy Stainless barrel... Accuracy is excellent, at Sub MOA, with 27 or 27.5 grains of H335 and a 95 grain Hornady bullet in Hornady brass. Hornady SST 123gr may be a better choice for larger deer. The Hornady Black 123 ELD load has been reported by some to fail to expand in hogs. One problem with Grendel is that the magazines spread or spring open/ flare wider when loaded... Due to excess spring force from magazine spring being transferred by the follower through the ammo and onto the magazine walls.... pushing the walls apart and effectively causing some fit and function problems especially in greater than 7 round capacity magazines. 6.8 SPC 'may' have similar magazine problems.... For enhanced reliability and a bit more velocity or power....6.5 Creedmoor "in the slightly more expensive AR-10" is probably a better choice than the 6.5 Grendel or the 6.8 SPC. ELD-'X' BULLET MAY BE A VIABLE CHOICE FOR HUNTING since they are designed to eXpand. ELD MATCH bullets may or may not expand.Thanks again,Dr. Bell for sharing your retirement projects with us.
I was surprised initially but when I pondered it, it made sense. Less blast from the muzzle with that difference in pressure escaping from the bleed off gas port.
@@cdem9631 I suspect DI and bleed off would be similar although the perceived sound with DI might be greater since the excess gas is exhausted closer to the shooters ear.
Wow, Michael! You hit this video out of the park. One of your best to date. Flawless! And thank you for making the very clear installation correction. Well done on that. Your video was extremely clear and your methods methodical. I understood every step and every reason. The results of the velocity test were not so surprising... to me, anyway. The results of your suppressed tests were shocking. I had no idea what was going to happen. But the significant additional sound suppression with the bleed off function should have the forums, the suppressor industry, and Supuraltive Arms BUZZING! SA, does not use that as a marketing tool do they? Were they even aware of the phenomena? If I sold suppressors I would make it clear that the use of an SA kit should maximize the sound suppression over any other piston kit...and possibly over any DI system. People (many) have said they do NOT like piston kits when using a suppressor because they are inherently noisier. Tim from MAC says this all the time. I always contended that any minor sound difference is offset by FAR less gas in the face with a piston system over a DI system. Now, there seems to be a GOOD reason to purchase and USE a piston system with a bleed off like SA with a can. Question: Is the bleed off setting with a can as quiet or quieter than a DI system with an adjustable gas block. This might be a good subject for your next video. Also, was there any difference in the amount of gas in the face with the suppressor in the bleed off position vs restriction? I would not expect any. But there might be a difference. IDK. Do you remember? I think SA owes you some free kits for making them MORE marketable than ever!! Have you shared this video with them. Their comments?
I have a Superlative Arms DI adjustable gas block in the shop. It may be my next video. There is a guy in town that has a surplus Humvee that he is going to customize and he said I could do some videos of the progression and finished product so I might do the intro video of that this week. In any event the SA DI gas block review is coming up soon. I am very curious to see how it compare to the piston results.
Yes, with restriction all of the extra gas goes through the suppressor and out the front or in increased blow back. I think this bleed off system may be very well suited for those that want to use a suppressor a lot.
Tried this on an 11.5 in. barrel with a heavy buffer. Set up was easy and it worked as advertised. Gun shot soft for an 11.5 carbine length gas, compared to my completion guns that have restrictive gas systems. Have not tried it with my surefire suppressor yet. I just purchased another one for my ,308 It did leave some fowling in front of the gas block. Not a big deal for me.
Cool video. I wish you had included all the individual shot decibel readings like the way silencershop does on their reviews. That way we can see the difference between FRP on each system.
My meter is pretty low tech. That is why I try to stress I am looking for qualitative values and not quantitative. There is a subjective difference and I am just trying to verify the difference objectively. I have been told that others with more sophisticated equipment are verifying my results.
Thanks. Sounds good. Would have also been nice to see it compared to a non-adjustable DI gun as well. Thanks for taking the time to make this video. It's a good one.
3db and up are significant. 9db -10db is HUGE. I am a little surprised at Mike's blase conclusion. His results, if they are repeatable, could really cause a major buzz in the suppressor and piston industry!
Well it was my first time with this db meter. I could hear the difference but not confident in this new to me equipment. Shooting with bleed-off was completely comfortable and with restriction my ears rang a little bit.
your shell patern was at 2:00 surpresed restricted but suppressed bleed off at 3:30 , test needs to be run again both at 3:30 shell position. your dB will be different.
You tune the gas system based on the failure to hold the bolt back with one round in the mag, not on the ejection pattern. I noticed when tuning to the suppressor the cases ejecting at 2 o'clock all the way to failure. Unless you want a bolt gun you have to give the rifle enough gas to cycle. The instructions call for one extra click after finding the breaking point. This was done for both restriction and bleed-off. Every adjustable gas block I have ever installed calls for a similar technique. I cut the gas all the way to only 1/2 turn for the restriction before getting a failure and the brass was flying out forward even when it did not hold back. Actually I was expecting the bleed off to cause more noise. In any event you have to give the system one click past the first bolt hold open point as per instructions, unless you want to take a chance on the gun not being a semi automatic weapon.
Yep, what Mike said. Any ejection from about 2-4 O'clock is good. Between 2 and 3 is ideal. It means that you are NOT over gassed. When the shells start coming back with vigor at 5 and 5:30, that means you are over gassed. Mike was text book, picture perfect in every step that he did in this video. I am a huge fan of his and not afraid to call him out on any mistakes that he does which is a rare occurrence anyways.
Thanks! I will be checking out the Superlative Arms DI gas block in my next video. I am curious about how the bleed-off will work with a DI build suppressed and unsuppressed. It might be next week before I get that review done.
+Michael Bell (mbell556) I noticed that on their website earlier, very curious as well for my current upper (Running the Syrac adjustable gas block at the moment). Subscribed for updates!
Mike, I am so shocked. Less than 1000 views and only 36 comments. This is one of your very best videos. Did you embed or link this in a thread on AR15.com? If you didn't I will. You have made the ONLY video on this ground breaking, revolutionary, vastly under appreciated piston kit. Until something better comes along, I plan on using this for all mu builds! I went back to using DI (for it's ability to be fine tuned better than most piston kits...at the time) and I had serious regrets. I HATE the filth and baked on crud that has to be tedioulsy scraped off any bolt in a DI system. I was used to shooting a THOUSAND rounds and then doing nothing more than a rag wipe down of the upper receiver innards. With the advent of this SA kit I cant see any reason to use DI any more. I wonder if you would sit down and compare the actual cost difernce between a DI set up with an adjustable gas block and a piston kit. Let me try. The piston kit costs $290. A DI similar set up costs: 1) Melonite bolt carrier stripped: $60 2) Adjustable DI gas block, nitrided: $100 3) Nitrided Gas tube: $16 Total: $176.00 So the piston kit costs $124 more than a DI system...approximately. That $124 is better spent that most people can possibly realize. I realize my figure is approximate, but it IS realistic.
I think your numbers above are pretty close. So for about $125 and 2 ounces of weight you can convert DI to piston and have restriction or bleed-off adjustments with this system.
Michael Bell Yes, Mike. I took the liberty to post and also embed this video on Superalative Arms Face Book page. You dont mind, do you? I could not imagine that you would. Have you had any contact or feedback from them concerning this video? NO one else has done any video on their amazing kit. And if they did, there is no way it would ever be so comprehensive and well done like this one. I stand by my stance that this is one of your very finest videos. It reveals some extremely unexpected and amazing results! Especially on the use of suppressors with the bleed off function. No AR15 thread on this? There should be. You are son great. Carry on Mike.
Michael Bell Well am not social media savvy. I basically never use Facebook. I just found out that if you post just the LINK to any You Tube video, that video get automatically embedded. The problem is that your video and my entire post is mostly hidden. You have to open the entire "Visitor Posts" section. I did leave an additional comment on how to do this in order to access your video. So convoluted. There is no other way. I checked. Facebook is poorly designed when you want to help promote another company's product on their own page. Facebook is run by horrific anti free speech ultra Libtard anti conservatives. This is not any great secret. I doubt my efforts will actually have much success. I tried, Mike. A link on AR-15.com and any other forum will get better exposure.
Michael Bell I also posted on SA's Facebook a second comment on the moderate additional cost compared to a DI system...an extra $125 and a mere two more ounces of weight. Thanks in part to your data.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 I just built up my first AR with a kit like this from SA. The upper is a Gibbz arms side charging handle with a rifle length barrel. Looks greatr but i had no idea how to set up rhw gas system. Thanks for you your video... helped a lot
Thanks for watching. I have a 3 part series I call "AR15 Clinics" if you start having function problems. I try to use the same analytical approach I used in surgery to diagnose and treat function problems in the AR15 platform.
One thing I noticed in difference was restricted actually also had a flash vs bleed off did not. However I do feel you should of tested directly between the farthest points to see what intermediate would do.
Michael Bell you tested at say 9 clicks and 24 clicks iirc. So why not test 16-17? Basically see how middle of the road compared to the high and low road
I was just tuning to the "proper" amount of gas to make the the rifle run reliably. You could over gas and compare. If you tried under gassed then gun might not cycle reliable. Just using the parameters the manufacturers recommend.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 i have a aero precision atlas r one 12 inch i also just bought a aero quantum 15in thinking it would fit it doesn't have had a hard time finding one i will check out the bcm thanks
@@MichaelBellmbell556 just got my 10.5 inch bcm handguard installed its worked perfectly where i can easily access the adjustments thanks alot for your help i do have one more question on my bolt do i need to take the rings off my old one
Hey Michael,how is the Piston kit holding up,have you had any problems with it?.im looking at this kit for my rifle.i really enjoy the review you earned another subscriber.
At 15:10 watch the muzzle flash in the restriction mode. Lot more gas exiting than in the bleed off mode; hence then higher dB level. I think I'm about 11 hours late with this comment.:)
Yes. With restriction the excess gas stays in the bore behind the projectile and out of the muzzle. That is why, in my opinion, the restriction was louder than the bleed-off. I used the flash coming out of the suppressor as my thumbnail picture for this video.
Great videos sir. I actually enjoyed watching 3 times in a row. Have you ran any carbine length piston set ups on 7.62x39. If so, what is recommended buffer weights running 5.56x45 and 7.62x39. Is there a difference.
I have not put this kit on other calibers yet. Tony Russo, the owner, said it was only designed for 223/556 last time I talked to him, I know others have used it with 300 BO with success. I would go back to the one round in the mag test with a standard buffer and see if you can bleed off enough. If not then start increasing the buffer weight.
Michael, Thanks posting so many really informative videos. I've ordered a SA piston kit for my SBR, should be here early next week. Was interested in knowing about shooting suppressed, specifically is blowback reduced with a piston? Secondly, shooting suppressed with a DI gun is really dirty, what have you noticed from a cleaning perspective shooting suppressed. Thank You, M
Yes blowback is reduced with a piston and perhaps even a little more reduced with bleed-off. Adding a suppressor makes it dirtier but no where near what you see with a suppressed DI upper.
@mbell556 after testing which system do you prefer syrac or superlative arms, I currently use a Syrac ordance piston kit on my own AR. I'm in the process of building a His and Her set of ar-15s and i'm leaning towards building them both as piston guns PS love the channel keep up the great work
The question I have as an engineer is: does the sliding op rod generate excessive wear in the gas tube bore of the upper? One would think it’s ok because the BCG slides much more on a similarly anodized surface. And it appears that the op rod is a nicely ground and polished hardened part.
Hi Michael. I just want to say excellent video. Doing some research on the Superlative arms piston kit and was just wondering your thoughts on it after you used it awhile. I guess why I am leaning towards getting one is because of the bleed off. Have you found a better conversion kit out there? Thank you
This is my favorite so far. The Adams Arms kits are also well made but heavier and do not have the bleed off option. Also AA kits only have two settings for gas pressure.
Yes, all pistons that are under the hand guard dump gas there. For example LWRC SPR rifles or LWRC SL rifles. I have not noticed heat being a problem but they do get dirtier inside the hand guard. Still better than that dirt inside the bolt carrier and upper receiver.
Great video, very detail and informative. Does it fit the BCM KMR handguard? My handguard is Midwest Industries G3 M-series which is very slim, similar to the KMR. My barrel requires the .750" clamp-on model. Thanks.
Cindy Audet He mentions the buffer weight at the 1:35 mark of the video. He s as said he used a 1.7 Oz buffer. He used that weight just to test the adjustability oc the system. I just purchased this system, and talked to the owner Tony directly, he suggested a Heavy Buffer. I purchased a 4.7oz buffer from Surplus Ammo, now I'm just looking for a proper barrel and handguard for the system.
Some do and some do not. H416 self adjusting gas blocks have what could be considered a bleed off. Most AR systems do not bleed off the excess gas pressure. Restrictive adjustable gas blocks do not. The excess gas stays in the chamber thus you see the slight increase in muzzle velocity.
@@noluckpureskill9985 Yes they are exhaust ports. But adjustable gas blocks,, restrictive and bleed-off, decrease the gas pressure delivered to the gas key, i.e. bolt carrier group, thus adjusting the amount of gas that is exhausted thru those holes. The term bleed-off is referring to where the "excess gas" goes. I try to explain this in the video.
Hi again Mike, Bleeding off excess gas seems like a better way to reduce overgassing problems associated with suppressors since it doesn't "vent" the excess gas into the barrel and straight back into the fired cartridge. Would that be a correct statement? and, if so, would I be better off sending my SLR Sentry 7 AGB back and getting this instead? again, the intended purpose is to promote reliable operation with an AAC SDN6 suppressor.
This is a new system so long term test and experience are not available. But initially I would say that there is an advantage with suppression. There may be more of an effect on muzzle velocity with a suppressor and "bleed-off". I am going to test that out next week. That might not be bad if you are primarily concerned about keeping rounds subsonic. I know that the SLR products are high quality and have a couple of there adjustable gas blocks. I think that initially it does appear that the "bleed-off" design does make suppression quieter.
The SLR sentry 7 adjustable gas block seems to have resolved the aforementioned ejection problem exhibited by my DPMS Gen II Recon when an AAC SDN-6 suppressor was attached. The rifle seems to run flawlessly now. I went through about 100 rounds today with zero issues. Brass ejects behind me instead of in front of me now and lands a couple feet away. Some of them actually landed right on the picnic table I was shooting off of-inches away from the ejection port. No kidding. I compared MV with and without the AAC SDN-6 762 suppressor attached and it looks like the bullets are moving about 4 fps faster with the suppressor, 2,320 fps at the muzzle. The same load runs at 2,592 fps from an Armalite AR10t with a 24" barrel incidentally. I still have to put the magpul mags through some more rigorous testing to ensure that they aren't implicated however. One of them got jacked up the last time I shot but I think it got jacked up because the gun was overgassed.
Glad to hear.Using restriction is going to keep more pressure behind the projectile so some increse in velocity makes sense. Bleeding off will decrease the velocity some. I'll measure the velocity changes with a suppressors on my next field test with the SA bleed-off system.
You mentioned a 'light' buffer spring - what brand, and how much lighter? And I understand it's a light 'springing' of the buffer, not the actual weight of the spring. Although it may actually be lighter weight. ;)
Standard carbine is light, then Sprinco blue,green and orange get stronger as you go. I don't run a lighter than standard spring. If I need less resistance to cycling then go with a lighter buffer using the KAK buffer kit is the way I go.
A year later what do you think about the bleed off piston and DI gas set ups? I watched both of the excellent well done reviews. Is the piston bleed off gas system still on the top tier of conversion kits? Also have you had any experience with Fortis Adjustable gas block with flywheel technology or the Seekins Adjustable gas block?
I still think SA is the best light weight piston add-on kits. I would like to test the Fortis gas block but I am not sure they are available. The Seekins is the classic style of restrictive adjustable gas blocks and I am sure it is made well.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 thank you for the speedy reply, I had to look back at the seekins after reading your reply because I was thinking they had the detent on the outside for less carbon fouling. the 40 settings may have been why I was thinking seekins was also simular yet only partly. The Fortis are around but not from Foetus Manufacturing, I have been see it from 85 -100$.
I"ll see if Fortis will send me one. I cannot justify buying one right now, being retired. I was hoping to get enough support from viewers to keep my production going. We'll see how that works out. Thanks for watching.
Mr. Bell, what weight buffer would you recommend with a 7.5” barrel and the maxim defense proprietary buffer system? Do you think a heavy JP silent captured spring would be beneficial?
I have no experience with the JP captured spring system. The answer depends on the gas port size on your barrel. Do the one round in the mag test I describe in "AR-15 Clinics" and use the heaviest buffer that functions properly.
Really nice system! Does the op rod fit with DI Bolt Carrier? If so, have you tried to run with it? The reason I ask is because it would be pretty interesting to run this with Echo Trigger(It requires a modified BC).
No. You have to use their bolt carrier. I have the ECHO trigger and will be testing it next week. One problem is pistons use their own bolt carriers. The Franklin Armory binary did not run well with piston uppers anyway. You can modify your piston BC to run with the ECHO but I would be reluctant to try it.
I like the bleed-off function of the Superlative Arms. The Syrac is high quality and you would be fine with that product if you want restriction as the way to adjust your gas pressure. Guten Morgen !
These kits are lighter and lower profile. Also with the low profile AA kit you cannot remove the op rod from the front of the gas block. I believe the SA kit may be the only one that offers the bleed off system for adjustments.
@Cubanb407 Go to Mikes channel page. He did several videos comparing the Syrac piston kit with the AA kit. The Syrac piston kit is MADE by SA and is identical for all dimensions and features except the patented bleed off function.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 Thanks for the good info. A Superlative Rep. mentioned to me to try pinning the gas block, but I like the idea of the Rocksett on the screws.
Hello sir, i have the syrac ordnance clamp on still new and i was wondering, 1- Do you think the superlative arms with the bleed off feature is better? 2- does the screw on version fit under a noveske NSR rail with inside diameter 1.35 or under a BCM KMR or any other 1.3 ID rail? Because the clamp on Syrac would never fit such rails, had to get the Daniel Defense MFR rail to fit under and now i wanna change that rail to a lighter model, thank you very much.
Thanks for the prompt reply. I was wondering does the bushing which guides the rod in the upper receiver clear the regular AR gas tube? Just in case I want to change back to DI system later on. Looks like the bushing cannot be taken out once installed.
The gas tube will slip thru the bushing. Superlative Arms says that the bushing is completely optional. Having the bushing there may increase blow back with a DI system. I am told the X shaped hole in the upper for the gas tube is to vent gases out of the upper. If you are concerned about changing back to DI I would recommend leaving the bushing out, at least initially. I think you will like the piston.
How would you recommend tuning this for an 11.5 in barrel with a carbine length gas system and running suppressed and unsuppressed? Is there a sweet spot or should you just tune it for unsuppressed and then attach the suppressor and run it a little over gassed?
I would follow the instructions for adjusting with and without the suppressor and write down the settings for each. Then leave it on the unsuppressed setting. when adding the suppressor, adjust to the optimal suppressor setting. That way you maximize the benefit of the bleed-off when suppressed. If it is a rifle you always suppress then leave it on the adjusted setting for suppressed. That is just me.
Can you do a comparison of the POF dictator system? I am a lefty and I'm planning on building a 7.5 inch 300blk. I would go with piston but suppressed I'd get too much gas in my face and I have better DI bolt carrier options that send the gas forward. Most Pistons come with a bolt that's specific to them that are most reliable from what I understand. So I'm impressed with your results from superlative but I'm still curious about the POF dictator. Any input would help, thanks.
Do not have a dictator system. Pistons have much less blowback than DI, especially with a suppressor. I would love to do a video review of the POF system but I can't afford to buy one now just to do the video. (retired) If anyone out there has one I could borrow I'll evaluate it and return it. I emailed POF but no answer.
Michael Bell yeah I'll think about it, cause the money for the other parts will take me a little while anyway. And your evaluations and solutions are top notch on UA-cam. Thanks.
I have not. I have several that all work well. The bleed off function of this kit is what made me want to take a closer look at it. AA kits are good to go and function similar to other kits.
They are both quality parts and great companies. It depends on whether or not you want the bleed-off option. I think if you will add a suppressor then the bleed-off is a distinct advantage. Otherwise you can't go wrong with either company. Using restriction to adjust will give you a few FPS of increased velocity.
Hey Mike, did the bleed off gases ever get hot on your bare hand with a free float handguard or heat up the handguard? Additionally, is the system noisy when moving it around like on a sling does it rattle?
I do not think the design adds any significant heat to the hand guard that you can appreciate. The bulk of the heat transmitted to the hand guard is still coming from radiating heat from the hot barrel and gas block itself. The internal spring keeps the op rod still so nothing flops around and makes noise while moving around with the gun.
No more than any other piston set up that has the gas block under the hand guard. My LWRC SPRs exhaust the driving gas under the hand guard. The little bit of excess gas added by the bleed-off system is negligible compared to the volume of driving gas. I hope my explanation makes sense.
About 2" in length. Theoretically the mid length is a little softer shooting than the carbine length with a 16" barrel, but from a practical standpoint it is hard to tell. I have both and would not recommend changing the length you have if it is working well for you. Adding an adjustable system like the SA will allow you to tune your gun down if it is slightly over gassed. This will make it softer shooting. Remember that any adjustable gas block will only allow you to decrease your driving gas pressure, not increase it. If your rifle is reliable and throwing brass out at 4-5 o'clock then you will not be able to decrease the gas much before getting an under gassed situation. Adding the piston system will make your rifle run cleaner and cooler however.
No, that is what I was expecting. With the bleed off piston the excess gas exhaust thru the front of the gas block and the suppressed rifle is quieter than a restrictive adjustable gas block. So while I have not done a side by side with this system and a DI, I think it stands to reason that since DI non adjustable systems are usually over gassed that the adjustable bleed off system would be a little softer sounding.
Michael Bell thanks for the reply. I DO have the superlative arms bleed off adjustable gas block on my DI gun though. I would think the piston pop would make that system a little louder than a bleed off DI system
Not sure, but I was surprised by how quiet this piston set up was. Certainly for a piston system, suppressed, the bleed off helps. I could do a side by side suppressed DI vs piston. I'll write that down on my list of things to look at. Thanks.
Michael Bell Did you ever get around to doing a side-by-side comparison of the DI versus the Piston systems in order to compare sound levels? I actually had this same question, and am planning a suppressed .300BLK PDW/"Truck Gun" build, and if the SA Piston system is quieter such as when running restrictive versus venting, I'll definitely be spending the extra bucks confidently.
I'm curious about this as well. After seeing this test, it seems like any piston kit would generally be quieter than a DI system but everybody is currently saying that's not true. I was thinking about getting an Adams Arms piston kit for my suppressed 300 Blackout build if it's quieter but I can see that it's already a lot harder to tune a piston system for 300 Blackout so I won't bother if it is actually louder than a DI system.
Michael Bell, I need some direction. I recently installed this kit on a 10.5” build. I am now having the charging handle slide back on its own, after the last round in the magazine. I had a Seekins adjustable gas block on it for years and never had this problem. Any ideas?
Look closely at the channel of your charging handle for wear. If the bolt carrier is hitting the charging handle and pushing it back there should be wear on the channel where contact is being made. If there is no wear then the handle itself may be weak or the seat in the upper receiver may be worn and not holding the handle in place adequately. Is the upper receiver new? Check on these things and get back to me and we should be able to figure it out and fix it.
The charging handle latch is good, the upper receiver is good. Never had this problem until I installed this kit. It almost looks like the top of the piston key on the BCG is hitting the very back of the charging handle on the rearward stroke. It’s interesting that this only occurs on the last round though. Is there somewhere I could email you photos or contact you other than through comments?
Front, under the guard. Just like I do with any other AR. All piston guns exhaust gas under the rail, this just exhaust a little more. No problems with this.
Life has kept me very busy this past year. I have done a lot of work out at our property, AKA Bullet Creek, as well. I plan to start back when it cools off. I have lots of projects and products in the shop I want to review. I will be back. In the mean time I try to keep up with comments and discussions on my channel.
Did not check but should be more. There was not much difference with out the suppressor and with a suppressor a few fps slower might be welcomed if trying to go subsonic with 300 Blackout. It does not seam that it is going to make a lot of difference though.
Michael Bell The thought I had was; could the can cause more gas bleed off and still allow the gun to function, causing a noticeable drop in velocity ? ... if so, you probably would have noticed it in a rise in sound signature.
This is the gold standard of reviewing and product testing. Very thorough and detailed experimental procedure.
Thanks. Please check out "AR-15 Clinics" and the rest of my channel if you get a chance, and thanks for watching.
I have the Superlative Arms AGB DI on my 300blk and this was VERY informative testing. It makes sense than in restricted mode there is more gas staying behind the bullet beyond the gas port so a slight velocity advantage is to be had, however when you consider the nearly 10db lower noise at the ear in bleed off (likely do the the reduction in Port pop as pressure is released out the front of the gas block) it's clearly an advantage to use this system in bleed off mode! Very thorough and detailed testing! You've helped a ton of folks and I hope you feel good about that sir!
Thanks
Just found your channel while researching Superlative Arms products. This was an impressive review and testing process. You have a new subscriber. Excellent work!
Thank you!
I watched this video several times before buying one.....and several times after......
Great video!!!!!
Plan on watching in the future
Glad it was helpful!
Really well done and informative video. This was exactly the information I was looking for on the superlative bleed off gas block. If only science class in school was like this video. Thanks
Make science fun !! Thanks for the kind words. This is a very nice and light retrofit piston system.
This is quite possible the best video I've watched on UA-cam. This is EXACTLY what I needed!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Still looking at these videos in 2022, thank you for giving a thorough overview of this product, I bought 2 so far and may get more later.
Thanks!
Michael, thanks for your patient and clear explanation of this very different system. Looking forward to building one! BTW, it's pretty clear at the sales sites and in the instructions received in the kit that this unit is NOT rated for 300 Blackout, so if anyone is planning a build, be aware of this.
Correct.
Fantastic review. You this guy just saved me hours and ammo on the range. Great job. The video prior to this one was also very informational. His tests are thorough and his explanations are perfect. Can't say enough about this review.
I think that is pretty darn minimal for how freaking smooth it looks when it cycles with the bleed off enabled. Thanks for such an informative video!
Thanks.
I stumbled upon your channel while researching Superlatives products. I found your information extremely helpful and thorough. Thank you Sir
Thanks. Please spend some time browsing my channel if you get a chance.
Michael. What another wonderful and comprehensive review. I can't wait until my Superlative system arrives. Can you imagine the variables on an SBR with a restrictive muzzle break, ultra lo-mass buffer, low mass BCG, and the BFS trigger. I can hardly wait.
Thanks again for a great video.
That sounds like a fun combo of components.
I went through 3 DIFFERENT springs so quickly to realize passing the fully open setting started the bleed off. I run my 11in SBR suppressed. I stayed at the 2-4 turn range(restrictive) for a while, caked up my bolt with carbon. This is the type of video that makes superlative arms hire you for business or just that my ADHD got the best of me and had you to thank.
Thanks for watching.
Awesome video as always Mike. I just purchased this system, and spoke with Tony. He suggested a Heavy Buffer, so I purchased a 4.7oz buffer from Surplus Ammo. Now I'm looking for a proper barrel and handguard for the system to complete my project. I'm really looking forward to trying it.
Look at the muzzle flash difference with the suppressor - that says everything!
Great video
Thanks!
Man these videos are fantastic. I’ve been eyeing this system to use on an upper I’m assembling using a Faxon 11.5in mid length barrel, and I am definitely getting one for it now!
Thanks. Please let them know you watched the videos.
Thinking about doing rhe same honestly haha...I just wish Faxon made a 12.5"
Rzr2ffe Dude me too. If this combination works out, Triarc makes a mid length 12.5in barrel that I will definitely use for another upper build with this piston system
@@wickedrebel512 I have done a couple of 12.5 builds recently in 5.56 and 6.8 SPC. AR Performance makes 12.5 barrels that are real nice.
Michael Bell I’ll look into them, thanks for the tip!
Ran flawlessly. Thank you for the Video. Truly simple build.
Thanks for watching. Good job!!
I noticed at about 15:20 when you were comparing restricted vs. Bleedoff, the ejection of the shells was quite different. About 1 o'clock for restricted and 3 o'clock for bleedoff. NIce analysis, thank you for sharing.
Thanks for watching.
Great video! Thanks for doing the tests!
You are welcome!
Dr. Bell, Thank you for sharing the extensive AR field reports with various configurations and modifications. I have enjoyed learning more about how these operate... A project I am considering includes use of 6.5 Grendel 20" AR as a light caliber deer rifle for 150-200 pound Midwestern / Missouri farmland deer.
I just did a 6.5 Creedmoor build on a small frame 308. I have not done a 6.5 Grendel build but I think it would make a good hunting platform. I am going to try to take a dear on our property with a 6.8 SPC AR this year.
Thank you Dr. Bell, FYI: My brother just completed his 6.5 Grendel build using a Mag Tactical lower {aka Fostech} and a Bear Creek Arsenal Upper with 20" nonfluted Heavy Stainless barrel... Accuracy is excellent, at Sub MOA, with 27 or 27.5 grains of H335 and a 95 grain Hornady bullet in Hornady brass. Hornady SST 123gr may be a better choice for larger deer. The Hornady Black 123 ELD load has been reported by some to fail to expand in hogs. One problem with Grendel is that the magazines spread or spring open/ flare wider when loaded... Due to excess spring force from magazine spring being transferred by the follower through the ammo and onto the magazine walls.... pushing the walls apart and effectively causing some fit and function problems especially in greater than 7 round capacity magazines. 6.8 SPC 'may' have similar magazine problems.... For enhanced reliability and a bit more velocity or power....6.5 Creedmoor "in the slightly more expensive AR-10" is probably a better choice than the 6.5 Grendel or the 6.8 SPC. ELD-'X' BULLET MAY BE A VIABLE CHOICE FOR HUNTING since they are designed to eXpand. ELD MATCH bullets may or may not expand.Thanks again,Dr. Bell for sharing your retirement projects with us.
Outstanding information and detail. Very impressive analysis.
Thanks. Check out "AR-15 Clinics" 3 part series on my channel if you get a chance and are interested in ARs. And once again, thanks for watching.
I’m surprised to see the sound difference test results. Not what I expected. Good video!
I was surprised initially but when I pondered it, it made sense. Less blast from the muzzle with that difference in pressure escaping from the bleed off gas port.
Hmmmm... It would be interesting to see a sound test, superlative bleed off vs DI
@@cdem9631 I suspect DI and bleed off would be similar although the perceived sound with DI might be greater since the excess gas is exhausted closer to the shooters ear.
Wow I really I’m really interested in the superlative piston kit now after watching this informative video!
Awesome review and explanation. Trying to figure out pistons on my current build.
Thanks for watching!
Wow, Michael! You hit this video out of the park. One of your best to date. Flawless!
And thank you for making the very clear installation correction. Well done on that.
Your video was extremely clear and your methods methodical. I understood every step and every reason.
The results of the velocity test were not so surprising... to me, anyway.
The results of your suppressed tests were shocking. I had no idea what was going to happen. But the significant additional sound suppression with the bleed off function should have the forums, the suppressor industry, and Supuraltive Arms BUZZING!
SA, does not use that as a marketing tool do they? Were they even aware of the phenomena?
If I sold suppressors I would make it clear that the use of an SA kit should maximize the sound suppression over any other piston kit...and possibly over any DI system.
People (many) have said they do NOT like piston kits when using a suppressor because they are inherently noisier. Tim from MAC says this all the time. I always contended that any minor sound difference is offset by FAR less gas in the face with a piston system over a DI system.
Now, there seems to be a GOOD reason to purchase and USE a piston system with a bleed off like SA with a can.
Question: Is the bleed off setting with a can as quiet or quieter than a DI system with an adjustable gas block. This might be a good subject for your next video.
Also, was there any difference in the amount of gas in the face with the suppressor in the bleed off position vs restriction? I would not expect any. But there might be a difference. IDK. Do you remember?
I think SA owes you some free kits for making them MORE marketable than ever!! Have you shared this video with them. Their comments?
I have a Superlative Arms DI adjustable gas block in the shop. It may be my next video. There is a guy in town that has a surplus Humvee that he is going to customize and he said I could do some videos of the progression and finished product so I might do the intro video of that this week. In any event the SA DI gas block review is coming up soon. I am very curious to see how it compare to the piston results.
Michael Bell
Awesome! Great. I am always anxious for your next videos!
I noticed a big difference in muzzle flash between the restrictive and bleed off when suppressed starting at about 15:04 in the video.
Yes, with restriction all of the extra gas goes through the suppressor and out the front or in increased blow back. I think this bleed off system may be very well suited for those that want to use a suppressor a lot.
Tried this on an 11.5 in. barrel with a heavy buffer. Set up was easy and it worked as advertised. Gun shot soft for an 11.5 carbine length gas, compared to my completion guns that have restrictive gas systems. Have not tried it with my surefire suppressor yet. I just purchased another one for my ,308 It did leave some fowling in front of the gas block. Not a big deal for me.
Excellent.
Cool video. I wish you had included all the individual shot decibel readings like the way silencershop does on their reviews. That way we can see the difference between FRP on each system.
My meter is pretty low tech. That is why I try to stress I am looking for qualitative values and not quantitative. There is a subjective difference and I am just trying to verify the difference objectively. I have been told that others with more sophisticated equipment are verifying my results.
Thanks. Sounds good. Would have also been nice to see it compared to a non-adjustable DI gun as well. Thanks for taking the time to make this video. It's a good one.
All my questions answered. Thank you Sir.
You are welcome, please check out our other videos if you get a chance.
Thanks again Mike will do as you suggest. I will let you know results. Piston kit on backorder.
Gary
10 decibels is a lot!
great video
My ears rang a little with the restrictive settings and I had not felt that with the bleed-off setting.
3db and up are significant. 9db -10db is HUGE. I am a little surprised at Mike's blase conclusion.
His results, if they are repeatable, could really cause a major buzz in the suppressor and piston industry!
Well it was my first time with this db meter. I could hear the difference but not confident in this new to me equipment. Shooting with bleed-off was completely comfortable and with restriction my ears rang a little bit.
Michael Bell
I dont need a meter reading to tell me that is HUGE. Have you let SA know about this?
I sent them a link to the video
Just rewatched again......😅......i was bored and started playing with buffer weights and spring
Dude! Thank you! So thorough. God bless!!
Thanks for watching.
EXCELLENT review !
Thanks!
your shell patern was at 2:00 surpresed restricted but suppressed bleed off at 3:30 , test needs to be run again both at 3:30 shell position. your dB will be different.
You tune the gas system based on the failure to hold the bolt back with one round in the mag, not on the ejection pattern. I noticed when tuning to the suppressor the cases ejecting at 2 o'clock all the way to failure. Unless you want a bolt gun you have to give the rifle enough gas to cycle. The instructions call for one extra click after finding the breaking point. This was done for both restriction and bleed-off. Every adjustable gas block I have ever installed calls for a similar technique. I cut the gas all the way to only 1/2 turn for the restriction before getting a failure and the brass was flying out forward even when it did not hold back. Actually I was expecting the bleed off to cause more noise. In any event you have to give the system one click past the first bolt hold open point as per instructions, unless you want to take a chance on the gun not being a semi automatic weapon.
Yep, what Mike said. Any ejection from about 2-4 O'clock is good. Between 2 and 3 is ideal. It means that you are NOT over gassed. When the shells start coming back with vigor at 5 and 5:30, that means you are over gassed.
Mike was text book, picture perfect in every step that he did in this video. I am a huge fan of his and not afraid to call him out on any mistakes that he does which is a rare occurrence anyways.
very helpful and full of information.. thanks for sharing..
Thanks
Excellent job!
Thanks for watching!
Very well done
Thanks! If you get a chance please check out my channel.
Great review, might just have to buy this for my next upper.
Thanks! I will be checking out the Superlative Arms DI gas block in my next video. I am curious about how the bleed-off will work with a DI build suppressed and unsuppressed. It might be next week before I get that review done.
+Michael Bell (mbell556) I noticed that on their website earlier, very curious as well for my current upper (Running the Syrac adjustable gas block at the moment). Subscribed for updates!
Thanks!
Thank you
You're welcome
Mike, I am so shocked. Less than 1000 views and only 36 comments. This is one of your very best videos.
Did you embed or link this in a thread on AR15.com? If you didn't I will.
You have made the ONLY video on this ground breaking, revolutionary, vastly under appreciated piston kit.
Until something better comes along, I plan on using this for all mu builds!
I went back to using DI (for it's ability to be fine tuned better than most piston kits...at the time) and I had serious regrets. I HATE the filth and baked on crud that has to be tedioulsy scraped off any bolt in a DI system.
I was used to shooting a THOUSAND rounds and then doing nothing more than a rag wipe down of the upper receiver innards.
With the advent of this SA kit I cant see any reason to use DI any more.
I wonder if you would sit down and compare the actual cost difernce between a DI set up with an adjustable gas block and a piston kit.
Let me try. The piston kit costs $290.
A DI similar set up costs: 1) Melonite bolt carrier stripped: $60
2) Adjustable DI gas block, nitrided: $100
3) Nitrided Gas tube: $16
Total: $176.00
So the piston kit costs $124 more than a DI system...approximately. That $124 is better spent that most people can possibly realize.
I realize my figure is approximate, but it IS realistic.
I think your numbers above are pretty close. So for about $125 and 2 ounces of weight you can convert DI to piston and have restriction or bleed-off adjustments with this system.
Michael Bell
Yes, Mike. I took the liberty to post and also embed this video on Superalative Arms Face Book page. You dont mind, do you?
I could not imagine that you would.
Have you had any contact or feedback from them concerning this video? NO one else has done any video on their amazing kit. And if they did, there is no way it would ever be so comprehensive and well done like this one.
I stand by my stance that this is one of your very finest videos. It reveals some extremely unexpected and amazing results! Especially on the use of suppressors with the bleed off function.
No AR15 thread on this? There should be.
You are son great. Carry on Mike.
Thanks for embedding the video, I am not computer savvy. I did post the video on AR15.com.
Michael Bell
Well am not social media savvy. I basically never use Facebook. I just found out that if you post just the LINK to any You Tube video, that video get automatically embedded.
The problem is that your video and my entire post is mostly hidden. You have to open the entire "Visitor Posts" section. I did leave an additional comment on how to do this in order to access your video. So convoluted. There is no other way. I checked.
Facebook is poorly designed when you want to help promote another company's product on their own page. Facebook is run by horrific anti free speech ultra Libtard anti conservatives. This is not any great secret. I doubt my efforts will actually have much success. I tried, Mike.
A link on AR-15.com and any other forum will get better exposure.
Michael Bell
I also posted on SA's Facebook a second comment on the moderate additional cost compared to a DI system...an extra $125 and a mere two more ounces of weight.
Thanks in part to your data.
Thanl you Very good video
Thanks for watching.SA is good stuff.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 I just built up my first AR with a kit like this from SA. The upper is a Gibbz arms side charging handle with a rifle length barrel. Looks greatr but i had no idea how to set up rhw gas system. Thanks for you your video... helped a lot
Thanks for watching. I have a 3 part series I call "AR15 Clinics" if you start having function problems. I try to use the same analytical approach I used in surgery to diagnose and treat function problems in the AR15 platform.
Great video thanks!!
Thanks!
Awesome!
Thanks for watching. Check out my channel if you get a chance.
One thing I noticed in difference was restricted actually also had a flash vs bleed off did not.
However I do feel you should of tested directly between the farthest points to see what intermediate would do.
Yes, the flash is from the extra gas being put being the projectile and therefore into the suppressor.
What do you mean by "farthest points"?
Michael Bell you tested at say 9 clicks and 24 clicks iirc. So why not test 16-17? Basically see how middle of the road compared to the high and low road
I was just tuning to the "proper" amount of gas to make the the rifle run reliably. You could over gas and compare. If you tried under gassed then gun might not cycle reliable. Just using the parameters the manufacturers recommend.
Michael Bell okay thank you for that. New to ar build
20 fps is about the same as 1" of barrel, something to consider for anyone going pistol length.
thanks!
One of the most informative videos i have seen I just bought this kit and was wondering if you had any issues since with this system
Not so far. Durable and light weight!!
I just got my kit in the mail and im having issues with my handguard not fitting what kind did you wind up going with
@@chrisengland2380 BCM rail. What handguard did you get?
@@MichaelBellmbell556 i have a aero precision atlas r one 12 inch i also just bought a aero quantum 15in thinking it would fit it doesn't have had a hard time finding one i will check out the bcm thanks
@@MichaelBellmbell556 just got my 10.5 inch bcm handguard installed its worked perfectly where i can easily access the adjustments thanks alot for your help i do have one more question on my bolt do i need to take the rings off my old one
Which system do you prefer, adjustable piston or adjustable DI? Also thank you for providing such complete and easily understood tutorials.
Pistons are cleaner, but DI has less proprietary parts. I have and like both. It depends on what you value the most.
Good review, if a bit repetitive. I would have liked to see the specific sound meter readings for comparison.
My sound meter is not a great unit but it does confirm what the ear of the shooter and observer perceives.
Hey Michael,how is the Piston kit holding up,have you had any problems with it?.im looking at this kit for my rifle.i really enjoy the review you earned another subscriber.
At 15:10 watch the muzzle flash in the restriction mode. Lot more gas exiting than in the bleed off mode; hence then higher dB level. I think I'm about 11 hours late with this comment.:)
That certainly looks like the case.
Something I noticed there was muzzle flash with restrictive mode and none with bleed off when he was firing with the suppressor.
Yes. With restriction the excess gas stays in the bore behind the projectile and out of the muzzle. That is why, in my opinion, the restriction was louder than the bleed-off. I used the flash coming out of the suppressor as my thumbnail picture for this video.
Great videos sir. I actually enjoyed watching 3 times in a row.
Have you ran any carbine length piston set ups on 7.62x39.
If so, what is recommended buffer weights running 5.56x45 and 7.62x39.
Is there a difference.
I have not put this kit on other calibers yet. Tony Russo, the owner, said it was only designed for 223/556 last time I talked to him, I know others have used it with 300 BO with success. I would go back to the one round in the mag test with a standard buffer and see if you can bleed off enough. If not then start increasing the buffer weight.
@@MichaelBellmbell556
Will do.
Thank you
Michael,
Thanks posting so many really informative videos.
I've ordered a SA piston kit for my SBR, should be here early next week.
Was interested in knowing about shooting suppressed, specifically is blowback reduced with a piston?
Secondly, shooting suppressed with a DI gun is really dirty, what have you noticed from a cleaning perspective shooting suppressed.
Thank You,
M
Yes blowback is reduced with a piston and perhaps even a little more reduced with bleed-off. Adding a suppressor makes it dirtier but no where near what you see with a suppressed DI upper.
@mbell556 after testing which system do you prefer syrac or superlative arms, I currently use a Syrac ordance piston kit on my own AR. I'm in the process of building a His and Her set of ar-15s and i'm leaning towards building them both as piston guns
PS love the channel keep up the great work
I like the option of the "bleed-off" adjustments, so the edge would go to Superlative Arms. I'll be testing their DI "bleed-off" gas block next week.
I would check bleed off fouling and restriction fouling and see which is worse
Hard to discern but theoretically the bleed-off should be a little cleaner.
The question I have as an engineer is: does the sliding op rod generate excessive wear in the gas tube bore of the upper? One would think it’s ok because the BCG slides much more on a similarly anodized surface. And it appears that the op rod is a nicely ground and polished hardened part.
No significant wear so far.
Hi Michael. I just want to say excellent video. Doing some research on the Superlative arms piston kit and was just wondering your thoughts on it after you used it awhile. I guess why I am leaning towards getting one is because of the bleed off. Have you found a better conversion kit out there? Thank you
This is my favorite so far. The Adams Arms kits are also well made but heavier and do not have the bleed off option. Also AA kits only have two settings for gas pressure.
Sorry stupid question just found your test video.
Will this system dirty your hand guard and cause extra heat to be exhausted inside the hard guard making it hotter?
Loved the video, Thanks.
Yes, all pistons that are under the hand guard dump gas there. For example LWRC SPR rifles or LWRC SL rifles. I have not noticed heat being a problem but they do get dirtier inside the hand guard. Still better than that dirt inside the bolt carrier and upper receiver.
What were the actual decibel ratings? I saw that there was an 8db difference between bleed off and restricted, but what were the actual numbers?
So it’s counter clockwise to open the gas/allow more bleed off and clockwise to close?
How do you like their piston system vs DI vs a off the shelf piston rifle like PWS?
Great video, very detail and informative. Does it fit the BCM KMR handguard? My handguard is Midwest Industries G3 M-series which is very slim, similar to the KMR. My barrel requires the .750" clamp-on model. Thanks.
Yes, this is a .75" gas block on the KMR rail.
Nice!!!
Thanks!
Long term review: how has it held up? Any issues? How many rounds through it? How is the clean up after shooting as compared to DI?
I have only put a few hundred more rounds thru it with no issues. It is much cleaner than DI.
Mike thanks for the review.
I did not read all the comments, but do you have the weight you used for the buffer/ Thanks again.
Gary
Cindy Audet He mentions the buffer weight at the 1:35 mark of the video. He s as said he used a 1.7 Oz buffer. He used that weight just to test the adjustability oc the system. I just purchased this system, and talked to the owner Tony directly, he suggested a Heavy Buffer. I purchased a 4.7oz buffer from Surplus Ammo, now I'm just looking for a proper barrel and handguard for the system.
Most systems have some sort of bleed off whether its DI or piston correct? They may be achieved differently but its still technically a "bleed off"
Some do and some do not. H416 self adjusting gas blocks have what could be considered a bleed off. Most AR systems do not bleed off the excess gas pressure. Restrictive adjustable gas blocks do not. The excess gas stays in the chamber thus you see the slight increase in muzzle velocity.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 hmmm interesting... What about the holes on a bcg are those "gas ports"
@@noluckpureskill9985 Yes they are exhaust ports. But adjustable gas blocks,, restrictive and bleed-off, decrease the gas pressure delivered to the gas key, i.e. bolt carrier group, thus adjusting the amount of gas that is exhausted thru those holes. The term bleed-off is referring to where the "excess gas" goes. I try to explain this in the video.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 makes sense. I have no experience with them yet. So I'm definently a noob
Hi again Mike,
Bleeding off excess gas seems like a better way to reduce overgassing problems associated with suppressors since it doesn't "vent" the excess gas into the barrel and straight back into the fired cartridge. Would that be a correct statement? and, if so, would I be better off sending my SLR Sentry 7 AGB back and getting this instead? again, the intended purpose is to promote reliable operation with an AAC SDN6 suppressor.
This is a new system so long term test and experience are not available. But initially I would say that there is an advantage with suppression. There may be more of an effect on muzzle velocity with a suppressor and "bleed-off". I am going to test that out next week. That might not be bad if you are primarily concerned about keeping rounds subsonic. I know that the SLR products are high quality and have a couple of there adjustable gas blocks. I think that initially it does appear that the "bleed-off" design does make suppression quieter.
The SLR sentry 7 adjustable gas block seems to have resolved the aforementioned ejection problem exhibited by my DPMS Gen II Recon when an AAC SDN-6 suppressor was attached. The rifle seems to run flawlessly now. I went through about 100 rounds today with zero issues. Brass ejects behind me instead of in front of me now and lands a couple feet away. Some of them actually landed right on the picnic table I was shooting off of-inches away from the ejection port. No kidding. I compared MV with and without the AAC SDN-6 762 suppressor attached and it looks like the bullets are moving about 4 fps faster with the suppressor, 2,320 fps at the muzzle. The same load runs at 2,592 fps from an Armalite AR10t with a 24" barrel incidentally. I still have to put the magpul mags through some more rigorous testing to ensure that they aren't implicated however. One of them got jacked up the last time I shot but I think it got jacked up because the gun was overgassed.
Glad to hear.Using restriction is going to keep more pressure behind the projectile so some increse in velocity makes sense. Bleeding off will decrease the velocity some. I'll measure the velocity changes with a suppressors on my next field test with the SA bleed-off system.
You mentioned a 'light' buffer spring - what brand, and how much lighter? And I understand it's a light 'springing' of the buffer, not the actual weight of the spring. Although it may actually be lighter weight. ;)
Standard carbine is light, then Sprinco blue,green and orange get stronger as you go. I don't run a lighter than standard spring. If I need less resistance to cycling then go with a lighter buffer using the KAK buffer kit is the way I go.
Thanks for the review! How is this superlative piston system holding up? Best regards.
Doing fine.
A year later what do you think about the bleed off piston and DI gas set ups? I watched both of the excellent well done reviews. Is the piston bleed off gas system still on the top tier of conversion kits? Also have you had any experience with Fortis Adjustable gas block with flywheel technology or the Seekins Adjustable gas block?
I still think SA is the best light weight piston add-on kits. I would like to test the Fortis gas block but I am not sure they are available. The Seekins is the classic style of restrictive adjustable gas blocks and I am sure it is made well.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 thank you for the speedy reply, I had to look back at the seekins after reading your reply because I was thinking they had the detent on the outside for less carbon fouling. the 40 settings may have been why I was thinking seekins was also simular yet only partly. The Fortis are around but not from Foetus Manufacturing, I have been see it from 85 -100$.
I"ll see if Fortis will send me one. I cannot justify buying one right now, being retired. I was hoping to get enough support from viewers to keep my production going. We'll see how that works out. Thanks for watching.
Mr. Bell, what weight buffer would you recommend with a 7.5” barrel and the maxim defense proprietary buffer system? Do you think a heavy JP silent captured spring would be beneficial?
I have no experience with the JP captured spring system. The answer depends on the gas port size on your barrel. Do the one round in the mag test I describe in "AR-15 Clinics" and use the heaviest buffer that functions properly.
Really nice system! Does the op rod fit with DI Bolt Carrier? If so, have you tried to run with it? The reason I ask is because it would be pretty interesting to run this with Echo Trigger(It requires a modified BC).
No. You have to use their bolt carrier. I have the ECHO trigger and will be testing it next week. One problem is pistons use their own bolt carriers. The Franklin Armory binary did not run well with piston uppers anyway. You can modify your piston BC to run with the ECHO but I would be reluctant to try it.
The Echo Trigger Gen 2 has now been released since this post and it will run with any BCG as long as it's got the M16 cut.
HI !
Thanks for your videos, very informatives. Wiche piston kit would you recomand between this one and the Syrac ?
Cheers from Switzerland !
I like the bleed-off function of the Superlative Arms. The Syrac is high quality and you would be fine with that product if you want restriction as the way to adjust your gas pressure. Guten Morgen !
Bitte !
Thanks for the review I am putting together a pistol with a 10.5 barrel have you tested it with the shorter barrel yet ?
I have not. Should be GTG
hey mike great vid as usual. Quick question how would you say this kit compares to something popular like Adam Arms or POF
These kits are lighter and lower profile. Also with the low profile AA kit you cannot remove the op rod from the front of the gas block. I believe the SA kit may be the only one that offers the bleed off system for adjustments.
I don't know of any other. SA claims their bleed off system is patented, don't they?
Yes, they say their design is. I am not sure if this means that the concept of bleed-off adjustment is.
Michael Bell
Well it has to be the bleed off portion. They allow Syrac to market (under the Syrac name) NON bleed off versions of their kit.
@Cubanb407
Go to Mikes channel page. He did several videos comparing the Syrac piston kit with the AA kit. The Syrac piston kit is MADE by SA and is identical for all dimensions and features except the patented bleed off function.
Hello. During the installation of the gas block, was it necessary to pin it to the barrel? Thanks.
I do not pin these gas blocks and have not had one come loose. I use Rocksett on the screws though.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 Thanks for the good info. A Superlative Rep. mentioned to me to try pinning the gas block, but I like the idea of the Rocksett on the screws.
Hello sir, i have the syrac ordnance clamp on still new and i was wondering,
1- Do you think the superlative arms with the bleed off feature is better?
2- does the screw on version fit under a noveske NSR rail with inside diameter 1.35 or under a BCM KMR or any other 1.3 ID rail?
Because the clamp on Syrac would never fit such rails, had to get the Daniel Defense MFR rail to fit under and now i wanna change that rail to a lighter model, thank you very much.
The screw on version fits under KMR rails. I would use the SYRAC since you have it.
Are there any differences between this piston kit and the Syrac Ordnance piston kit?
The bleed off function is the only significant difference.
Thanks for the prompt reply. I was wondering does the bushing which guides the rod in the upper receiver clear the regular AR gas tube? Just in case I want to change back to DI system later on. Looks like the bushing cannot be taken out once installed.
The gas tube will slip thru the bushing. Superlative Arms says that the bushing is completely optional. Having the bushing there may increase blow back with a DI system. I am told the X shaped hole in the upper for the gas tube is to vent gases out of the upper. If you are concerned about changing back to DI I would recommend leaving the bushing out, at least initially. I think you will like the piston.
Thank you Michael. Thumbs-Up for the prompt reply. All the best!
Mike, just curious if there was any difference in felt recoil either way? It seemed about the same, but should it be less in the bleed off opened up?
I could not tell a difference.
Thank you Mike.
After all of your time with this gas piston system, did you have any issues with the spring inside the piston chamber wearing/deforming?
Not yet.
How would you recommend tuning this for an 11.5 in barrel with a carbine length gas system and running suppressed and unsuppressed? Is there a sweet spot or should you just tune it for unsuppressed and then attach the suppressor and run it a little over gassed?
I would follow the instructions for adjusting with and without the suppressor and write down the settings for each. Then leave it on the unsuppressed setting. when adding the suppressor, adjust to the optimal suppressor setting. That way you maximize the benefit of the bleed-off when suppressed. If it is a rifle you always suppress then leave it on the adjusted setting for suppressed. That is just me.
with the suppressor on. Did you notice a difference in gas in the face with bleed-off vs restricted?
It really was not noticeable, but I think you can see a little difference in the video when you look at the smoke coming out of the ejection port.
Can you do a comparison of the POF dictator system? I am a lefty and I'm planning on building a 7.5 inch 300blk. I would go with piston but suppressed I'd get too much gas in my face and I have better DI bolt carrier options that send the gas forward. Most Pistons come with a bolt that's specific to them that are most reliable from what I understand.
So I'm impressed with your results from superlative but I'm still curious about the POF dictator. Any input would help, thanks.
Do not have a dictator system. Pistons have much less blowback than DI, especially with a suppressor. I would love to do a video review of the POF system but I can't afford to buy one now just to do the video. (retired) If anyone out there has one I could borrow I'll evaluate it and return it. I emailed POF but no answer.
Michael Bell yeah I'll think about it, cause the money for the other parts will take me a little while anyway. And your evaluations and solutions are top notch on UA-cam. Thanks.
I have a question. Did you do any testing with the Adams arms piston conversion kit?
I have not. I have several that all work well. The bleed off function of this kit is what made me want to take a closer look at it. AA kits are good to go and function similar to other kits.
Hello, I'm wonder if you've had any issues so far are owning and using the Superlative Arms Piston Kit for over 2 years. Thanks
No. This design has been reliable and durable. Lots of full auto abuse.
Any thoughts on the possible differences of velocity while suppressed using the bleed off function vs. restriction?
I do not think suppression would affect velocity. The increased back pressure that occurs with a can occurs after the bullet has left the muzzle.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 Thank you for your reply.
Do you think it's possible to put a superlative system on an ar
10 if you had a piston carrier for .308
I would not try it!
So do you like the superlative or the syrac more? They both look almost the same except how you adjust the gas.
They are both quality parts and great companies. It depends on whether or not you want the bleed-off option. I think if you will add a suppressor then the bleed-off is a distinct advantage. Otherwise you can't go wrong with either company. Using restriction to adjust will give you a few FPS of increased velocity.
Hey Mike, did the bleed off gases ever get hot on your bare hand with a free float handguard or heat up the handguard? Additionally, is the system noisy when moving it around like on a sling does it rattle?
I do not think the design adds any significant heat to the hand guard that you can appreciate. The bulk of the heat transmitted to the hand guard is still coming from radiating heat from the hot barrel and gas block itself. The internal spring keeps the op rod still so nothing flops around and makes noise while moving around with the gun.
Michael Bell thanks, do you feel the bleed of gases escaping through your handguard while firing?
No more than any other piston set up that has the gas block under the hand guard. My LWRC SPRs exhaust the driving gas under the hand guard. The little bit of excess gas added by the bleed-off system is negligible compared to the volume of driving gas. I hope my explanation makes sense.
Michael Bell awesome, but in no way uncomfortably hot? If not im about t order one rn
No. I have done full auto mag dumps and I do not wear gloves.
I have a Carbine Gas impingement System in my AR15 what are the differences between Carbine and mid length gas systems?
About 2" in length. Theoretically the mid length is a little softer shooting than the carbine length with a 16" barrel, but from a practical standpoint it is hard to tell. I have both and would not recommend changing the length you have if it is working well for you. Adding an adjustable system like the SA will allow you to tune your gun down if it is slightly over gassed. This will make it softer shooting. Remember that any adjustable gas block will only allow you to decrease your driving gas pressure, not increase it. If your rifle is reliable and throwing brass out at 4-5 o'clock then you will not be able to decrease the gas much before getting an under gassed situation. Adding the piston system will make your rifle run cleaner and cooler however.
Out of curiosity does the bleed off heat the handguard up more then the restrictive gas mode?
Not that I can notice.
Is this piston system noticeably louder when suppressed than a direct impingement system when suppressed?
No, that is what I was expecting. With the bleed off piston the excess gas exhaust thru the front of the gas block and the suppressed rifle is quieter than a restrictive adjustable gas block. So while I have not done a side by side with this system and a DI, I think it stands to reason that since DI non adjustable systems are usually over gassed that the adjustable bleed off system would be a little softer sounding.
Michael Bell thanks for the reply. I DO have the superlative arms bleed off adjustable gas block on my DI gun though. I would think the piston pop would make that system a little louder than a bleed off DI system
Not sure, but I was surprised by how quiet this piston set up was. Certainly for a piston system, suppressed, the bleed off helps. I could do a side by side suppressed DI vs piston. I'll write that down on my list of things to look at. Thanks.
Michael Bell Did you ever get around to doing a side-by-side comparison of the DI versus the Piston systems in order to compare sound levels? I actually had this same question, and am planning a suppressed .300BLK PDW/"Truck Gun" build, and if the SA Piston system is quieter such as when running restrictive versus venting, I'll definitely be spending the extra bucks confidently.
I'm curious about this as well. After seeing this test, it seems like any piston kit would generally be quieter than a DI system but everybody is currently saying that's not true. I was thinking about getting an Adams Arms piston kit for my suppressed 300 Blackout build if it's quieter but I can see that it's already a lot harder to tune a piston system for 300 Blackout so I won't bother if it is actually louder than a DI system.
Michael Bell, I need some direction. I recently installed this kit on a 10.5” build. I am now having the charging handle slide back on its own, after the last round in the magazine. I had a Seekins adjustable gas block on it for years and never had this problem. Any ideas?
Look closely at the channel of your charging handle for wear. If the bolt carrier is hitting the charging handle and pushing it back there should be wear on the channel where contact is being made. If there is no wear then the handle itself may be weak or the seat in the upper receiver may be worn and not holding the handle in place adequately. Is the upper receiver new? Check on these things and get back to me and we should be able to figure it out and fix it.
The charging handle latch is good, the upper receiver is good. Never had this problem until I installed this kit. It almost looks like the top of the piston key on the BCG is hitting the very back of the charging handle on the rearward stroke. It’s interesting that this only occurs on the last round though. Is there somewhere I could email you photos or contact you other than through comments?
We're you place your support arm with the handguard in this adjustable gas sistem
Front, under the guard. Just like I do with any other AR. All piston guns exhaust gas under the rail, this just exhaust a little more. No problems with this.
Does Micheal still make videos?
Life has kept me very busy this past year. I have done a lot of work out at our property, AKA Bullet Creek, as well. I plan to start back when it cools off. I have lots of projects and products in the shop I want to review. I will be back. In the mean time I try to keep up with comments and discussions on my channel.
What is the velocity difference between restrictive vs bleed off when using the suppressor ?
Did not check but should be more. There was not much difference with out the suppressor and with a suppressor a few fps slower might be welcomed if trying to go subsonic with 300 Blackout. It does not seam that it is going to make a lot of difference though.
Michael Bell
The thought I had was; could the can cause more gas bleed off and still allow the gun to function, causing a noticeable drop in velocity ?
... if so, you probably would have noticed it in a rise in sound signature.
Does it have the locking screw for the gas adjustments. If not are the adjustments very positive
No locking screw. Very positive and well made detent system. I show it up close in the shop review.
Michael Bell And you sir, have a new subcriber
Thanks