No exaggeration, this is one of the best videos I have seen on this platform. Ever. Very glad this showed up in my recommended. Great content, and something of which church leaders, seminaries, and all Christians need to be aware.
Speaking as one who was once "inside" or at least a fan of the movement, who saw many people get railroaded by that movement, from my perception, the "fall" of that movement had many many pitfalls which it stumbled into, which is unfortunate because it had potential to really elevate the level of historical and theological perception and awareness within evangelicalism: 1) A kind of caricature of "manliness" and machismo. 2) A bunch of young guys with lots of energy who started to pastor churches who felt they were now given permission to run their own little kingdom. 3) A commercial machine that hitched their wagon to renewed interest in reformed theology which spawned endless conferences that everybody felt like they needed to attend. 4)Many churches which became cult like, where anybody who asked questions was vilified and lied about. 5) preaching strongly against law and legalism while in many practical ways creating a new kind of law and legalism with reformed theology litmus tests and membership guidelines (some arguably valid, but which led many to feel like they were carrying a heavy heavy burden) 6) A series of sexual and abusive leadership scandals that were initially (sometimes to the bitter end) covered up, which caused many leaders, church members, and churches to leave. The list could go on, but from my limited perception, it was many of the things that Jesus lambasted the Pharisees about and the very things that this group thought they were against, but which they ultimately pursued: power, control, greed, sex, arrogance. In full disclosure, I started seeing some of those same qualities within my own soul, which in part was what led me to exit that movement.
Great Word my brother, in America up until the 2,000s obedience to God’s Word was strongly emphasized, but as we drifted from this as an emphasis in preaching Churches have compromised and his People have fallen away. We must learn to love his law agin.
It feels like whenever someone at church mentions that we should be obeying commands it's almost inevitably followed by an accusation of legalism. I'm so glad to have seen this video, made me feel like I'm not the only one. People have taken "grace instead of law" to mean that we don't need to follow God's laws. We aren't SAVED by obeying laws, but as you rightly point out, He gave them to us for a reason... Maybe they are intended to be obeyed?
Agree 100%. You are insightful. I'm quite tired of Tim Keller-ish stuff. And I'm a Presbyterian. Oh how love I thy law. It is my meditation all the day. If you love me keep my commandments.
A good analysis - thank you. You did speak to one of the main problems - that Jesus commanded us to make disciples not just converts. I remember a pastor of a mega church telling us that he was driving to his church to preach and he heard, in the spirit, this huge sucking sound, like the sound of a giant baby waiting to be fed! He decided to change things so that there was an emphasis on discipleship - and he lost about two thirds of his church. I have to say that he had no regrets.
Hello, brother! I'm from Brazil, so I won't pretend to know how denominations in the US apply the term "Gospel-centered". On my church we strive for practicing this culture, and I really don't understand how other people are able to separate being centered in the gospel and the practice of God's law. The thing is, Christ IS the center of the Bible, and I completely agree that the Bible is not about me (only on the extent that I'm a beneficiary of all the great things God has done for His people). But as someone who has been reached by Grace, clearly I have a responsibility to follow Jesus' steps and God's will as it is revealed in Scripture. On my church we subscribe The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, and it is clear on chapter 19 that we're not bound by ceremonial and judicial law (as those were fulfilled by Christ and were appliable to the estate of Israel respectivelly), but God's moral law (i.e. the Ten Commandments) "does for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither does Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation". To me, the gospel-centered movement is about showing how Jesus is the center of everything and we are fully and absolutely dependant on His works for salvation, but all of those who are saved show it by following closely God's will. It's a matter of salvation leading to good works not the other way around.
That was very thought-provoking! I think there are a few other reasons it fell apart. First, gospel-centered was code for calvinism. This introduces a Galatians 1:8-10 problem. For even if Calvinism were true, it's not the gospel. Second, this collapse happened after they gained dominance. It's as if they waited till they had taken out the non-calvinist opposition before the infighting started. This makes me skeptical of the conservatives from the movement who are now calling for our cooperation. Finally, Jonathan Pritchett makes a case that Donald Trump broke the movement, as he brought to the surface problems that they wanted to ignore and this led to the infighting! But again, your point is very insightful.
We are no longer under the law… What you were talking about is called application of the Bible.. basically go look at every Joel Osteen sermon, and he is a application preacher. He talks more about what we can do with our practical life. That is why so many people listen to him.. I actually love your video I think it is amazing! We have to tell people what to do because they need to be like sheep. God is the shepherd he guides us by the Stillwaters He doesn’t just say hey trust me, God will lead us in practical ways.. The law is not good for us. The new covenant is better. If the law was good for us, we would still be under the law.
As a woman who fully embraced the Catholic faith (in which I was raised but not really educated) through dreams I began having many of them lucid and wrote a book about it, I was stunned so many Protestants asking if lucid dreaming was evil. The charism of dreams! I guess that makes Saint Joseph evil. It's sad.
The Problem with the “gospel centered movement” is in large part they fell into the same trap steven furtik fell into, which is to be as broad as possible, keep it as basic as humanely possible, and rather than with the elders lead the congregation In sanctification, proper worship, loving kindness and forgiveness, and greater knowledge of Christ, they fell into preaching to the lowest common denominator constantly, which is why most people end up leaving churches like bethel or elevation. There is within this movement an intolerance for the Puritan mode of life (it’s filled with Gods law and looks a whole lot like “christian nationalism”) meanwhile praising the puritan theology of God and the Gospel. When the congregation then inevitably reads the reformers, as well as the puritans and the Patristics, they realize there’s more depth to the Christian life than basically listening to acts 2 over and over again. Now go out and apply acts 2, apply the whole bible to every area of life, fight the state which murders children utilizing the Word of God as your weapon, tend to the widow, welcome the estranged, discipline the wicked among you. Fulfill the great commission the whole way through. “Make disciples” not just scholastic “gospel centered” sadducees. Be courageous like Joshua, follow Christ in boldness, and don’t hide like tim keller when asked about what sodom and gamorrah did wrong. Again, this doesn’t apply to everyone in this movement, and most of these men are true Christians. We just have to go deeper than they are willing. This is why the reformed have grown in love of men like Jeff Durbin, Doug wilson, James White, Greg Bahnsen and so on, these men applied theology in life. I remember watching as the “gospel centered” acts 29 churches started closing, meanwhile you’d see the reformed smaller churches staying open, my congregation was always small during covid (i was in the military and moved around) and the two churches i attended (both reformed baptist) had 1 no mask mandates, and openly refused to obey the wicked requirements the state desired to put on our Lords body.
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
The old churches have liturgies, the creeds, and catechisms to act as guard rails. As long as you use the liturgical practices and traditions to point you back to scripture instead of replacing scripture you’re doing well and it takes about 500 years for someone to figure out how to abuse the system.
I do appreciate the final chapter of this video, and many other parts of this, as well. I do think that the problem is equating kindness with vagueness. Sometimes people just need to be told in no unclear terms that they are being sinful. I.e. supporting candidates who are pro-choice, pro-false marriage, etc. One thing the gospel-centered movement did was remind Christians of a watching world. Too often I found myself being appalled at the way professing Christians used unnecessary trigger words like the "gay lifestyle" or "Adam and Steve" that are sensitive points for the godless. In the early 00s, when gay jokes and cruel teasing of effeminate gestures were acceptable in casual speech, how many pastors were confronting that as sin? The more thoughtful types (Christians who wrestled with endorsing political candidates who claimed to be Christian and yet self-righteous) would thus face a dilemma when tribalistic Christians accused them of not being real Christians because they didn't vote a certain way. It was a different time, when the Democratic Party was not so vocally anti-Christian, and anti-everything good. Although we personally may not vote this way, could we not see how well-meaning people could have a conscience problem voting against a party that supports climate protections and and being uncomfortable with riots taking place in the Capitol? The issues are twofold. The two sides dont often talk to each other. Doug Wilson supporters tolerate his crude speech, and Tim Keller supporters are too happy to feed on the "elementary teachings" (Heb. 6:1) for far too long.
I have a couple thoughts on this: 1) Evangelistic outreach must be accompanied by strong discipleship. Getting people "in the door" does no good for the Kingdom if they are not going to do anything inside. True revival looks more like the Jesus People movement of the 1970's where newly saved individuals would be attending church every night of the week to learn excitedly. 2) These groups you mentioned are Calvinists getting together with other Calvinists to promote the Gospel and Calvinism, rather than a true ecumenical effort to further the Kingdom. I have every reason to believe that these folks are well meaning, even if it does look like a thinly veiled power grab to an outsider. Calvinists tend to be nitpicky, pitting people like John MacArthur against people like John Piper when it comes to spiritual gifts, so it's only a matter of time before the in-grouping of discernment ministries destroys the momentum they gained. That's just one example of significant doctrinal differences, but it is not the only one.
This was BANG ON. Really well said brother. Love your content - you've got a new subscriber here. Would love to have you on the podcast sometime too if you're open to it.
Amen. When it was promised that God would write His law on our hearts of flesh rather than of stone, the first and most perfect example of this was the heart of Jesus Christ. We can distinguish between the gospel and the law, but not to separate. We draw closer to Jesus so that the law might be written in our hearts, and we draw closer to His laws in order to draw closer to Him. The person of Christ can be distinguished from the law of God that He embodies, but what makes Him unique is that there is zero discord between the two. We pursue Him whenever we pursue the same harmony within ourselves, but we must remember it is the gospel that is the softening of our hearts to change, but without understanding God’s law, we can instead soften our hearts to all sorts of false Christs.
The irony for me is seeing how some shifted to the social Left, then other shifted to the social Right, both doing so while claiming to capture the intent of (or grace of) the Law correctly. One group championed theonomy (light, medium, or heavy) and the other claimed to be the prophetic (think minor and major) rebuke against the "pharisees" of Western civ. I was swayed by both but ultimately landed on Romans 7:1-6...but I've also had to wrestle with what to do with Law since my conversion thanks to family and friends in the Messianic Jewish/Hebrew Roots movement as well as BHI, so maybe my journey is different. Not to mention coming to a Protestant understanding of justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Let's not be swayed by Pharisees, Sadducees (religious or irreligious), or zealots of every stripe, brothers and sisters in Christ.
Great analysis, brother. Amazing content. I think the theonomistic Reformed approach is helpful, but not the only way. Holiness or classic Pentecostalism also another Christian tradition that stresses the application of God's law, but avails itself of the power of the Ghost to accomplish it. Which I believe is absolutely essential. Keep up the good work 💪
@@jamie.bambrick Your secret is safe with me. I always tell people it's important to make a distinction between classic Pentecostalism and neopentecostalism and even liberal charismaticism. One is biblical, sober, and missions focused, the later developments are prosperity oriented and full of con-artists.
I've never experienced preaching that was so "gospel-centered" that when expositing a text with an emphasis on the law,* the pastor completely ignores it, and went on to preach penal substitutionary atonement. The claim that this is widespread enough problem seems like a huge stretch. The right preaching of law and gospel is based in this: 1. When you preach a law text, you don't do that without also pointing people to the gospel (because law without the gospel, is just a moralistic message). 2. When preaching Law, you keep in mind the 3 uses of the law-- the first being that it exposes sin, and points to our need for a Savior. The second use is civil, and the third is that the law is a guide for Christians (how we are to obey in gratitude for what Christ has done). We should avoid the errors of both legalism (moralism) and antinomianism, which are caused by confusion of law (do) and gospel (done). Yes, God's law is good, but the law is not the gospel or "good news."
Tim Keller brought us the key insights of The Prodigal Sons. (Yes, sons not son.) And his points about Jonah's idolatry of nationalism was right on target for our idolatry of Uncle Sam and looking to worldly power to save us (the "Trump is my Prophet" and can do no wrong rhetoric). And also his points about corporate guilt didn't go so well with those who don't like hearing about those parts of the Bible. Keller's point about how non-Western cultures don't have as big a problem bearing communal responsibility as Westerners do, was a very needed one. I know this firsthand, having grown up visiting multiple cultures and countries, in the West and the East. Keller also always criticized both the modern identity and traditional identity. How both our individualism and our tribalism are performance-based. When i listen to his critics, i dont recognize the Keller i know from all his books and sermons. It's a caricature. Contrary to what many think, Piper (to this day) always and often tries to be level-headed, and emphasizes joy and trembling (Christian hedonism) over being scholarly. I'm also reminded of his Ask Pastor John segments, where he dives into mature texts. So I don't know why Piper is in the thumbnail. Keller also released a lengthy, in-depth analysis of why CRT was unbiblical, almost immediately after the culture seized on it like it was a panacea. And while I do have a serious problem with the moral relativizing like that of Russel More (lumping all conservative nationalism as dangerous) and J. Grear (God "whispering" about hlmosexuality), I feel very saddened that Keller and Piper are largely mischaracterized by their critics. But yes, TGC is not what it used to be. However, I think it's not fair to lump all those who ever contributed to it as being of the same stripe, for the same reason why CRT is wrong (being blinded by our tribalistic mentalities). (Rosaria Butterfield, for example, is very notable for taking issue with TGC's missing the mark lately).
I think your reflections are valid, however I think you’ve mischaracterised the point of “the Bible is not about you” brigade. I don’t think they were against practical applications derived from the scriptures. I think they were against imposing yourself into the scriptures, where the Bible makes you the protagonist rather than God. However, I do think a valid concern about “self-centred” Christianity, did cause much teaching that created an unhelpful distinction between the law and gospel. There is a right distinction, just perhaps not the one the “gospel centred” movement provided. Great video. Just my reflections
2 Corinthians 3 teaches this very thing while providing important clarifications concerning the place of the Old Covenant in regards to the New Covenant. Enjoy. A side note, the Sabbath is not a command for the church. It is nowhere repeated as a command from Jesus. The reason is that the Sabbath was a sign of the Mosaic/Sinaitic Covenant(Ex 33) which is fulfilled in Christ (Heb 4). We find our ultimate rest in Jesus, but don't fool yourselves, you still need rest. Jesus himself was our example of this taking days beyond the Jewish Sabbath to get away and pray. Not having a Sabbath day of rest does not mean you do not need rest. As Jesus stated, "The Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath." We keep the other 9 of the 10 commandments because they were taught by Christ and are contained within Jesus commands to "Love the Lord your God... and... love your neighbor..." which is the summation of the whole law and is the foundation for the Law of Christ.
I find this video incredibly vague as to which of God's laws you're saying that the "Gospel-centered movement" neglected. It's easy to tarnish a reputation if you simply insinuate without any clarity, because your statements necessarily cannot be refuted.Is this your intention?
I was waiting for you to give some practical examples of how a preacher could/should tell people to do God's law! You referred to the 10 Commandments, but if that's what you mean, then what Jesus said covers that: "Love The Lord your God with all your heart, sould mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." A true Christian, because he does love The Lord and his neighbor, fulfills these things without being told "don't steal from your neighbor." As Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:9 "knowing this: that *the law is not made for a righteous person but for the lawless* and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers" And in Romans 13:10, "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore *love IS the fulfillment of the law* " So again, honest question, what law(s) of God should be mentioned to the Christian by the preachers?
Absolute rubbish!!! the kingdom ìs not blessings and law!!! The kingdom is the central message of the bible not the gospel aka.salvation. Jesus only talked about salvation once and that to a rabbi ( Jn 3) aka religious leader. most people do NOT know what the Bible is really about because they all interpret it from a western/US mindset. Jesus said the end will come when the gospel of the kingdom is preached to all nations Everything Jesus did all the Miracles, healing even his death and resurrection is to show people what they lost in Genesis before the fall of man. He was to have and exercise dominion. Dominion/domain/ territory/ only kings can give this kind of authority to a people who represent a king and a kingdom. See Dr. Myles Monroe sermon on what is the kingdom of God. Westerners do not trust kings or believe in a kingdom. They trust themselves, capitalism and democracy and have fashioned a way of life and just added Jesus!!!!
IMHO, I don't think the Protestants will be able to figure out "what to do". Someone, or rather some church must have the necessary authority to decide on specific teaching or rather (in Jewish terms) "binding and loosing". That's why I, after 45 years as a Protestant, became a Catholic - so I could know "what to do" and know with a certainty that cannot be found in Protestantism. Plus many other reasons that are not relevant to this post.
No exaggeration, this is one of the best videos I have seen on this platform. Ever. Very glad this showed up in my recommended. Great content, and something of which church leaders, seminaries, and all Christians need to be aware.
Thank you so much for this video. You have hit the nail on the head, and God is honored by the work you are doing! Take heart!
I didn't even know it collapsed. Lol!
Speaking as one who was once "inside" or at least a fan of the movement, who saw many people get railroaded by that movement, from my perception, the "fall" of that movement had many many pitfalls which it stumbled into, which is unfortunate because it had potential to really elevate the level of historical and theological perception and awareness within evangelicalism:
1) A kind of caricature of "manliness" and machismo.
2) A bunch of young guys with lots of energy who started to pastor churches who felt they were now given permission to run their own little kingdom.
3) A commercial machine that hitched their wagon to renewed interest in reformed theology which spawned endless conferences that everybody felt like they needed to attend.
4)Many churches which became cult like, where anybody who asked questions was vilified and lied about.
5) preaching strongly against law and legalism while in many practical ways creating a new kind of law and legalism with reformed theology litmus tests and membership guidelines (some arguably valid, but which led many to feel like they were carrying a heavy heavy burden)
6) A series of sexual and abusive leadership scandals that were initially (sometimes to the bitter end) covered up, which caused many leaders, church members, and churches to leave.
The list could go on, but from my limited perception, it was many of the things that Jesus lambasted the Pharisees about and the very things that this group thought they were against, but which they ultimately pursued: power, control, greed, sex, arrogance.
In full disclosure, I started seeing some of those same qualities within my own soul, which in part was what led me to exit that movement.
Great Word my brother, in America up until the 2,000s obedience to God’s Word was strongly emphasized, but as we drifted from this as an emphasis in preaching Churches have compromised and his People have fallen away. We must learn to love his law agin.
It feels like whenever someone at church mentions that we should be obeying commands it's almost inevitably followed by an accusation of legalism. I'm so glad to have seen this video, made me feel like I'm not the only one.
People have taken "grace instead of law" to mean that we don't need to follow God's laws. We aren't SAVED by obeying laws, but as you rightly point out, He gave them to us for a reason... Maybe they are intended to be obeyed?
Blown away by this video. Absolutely inspirational
Agree 100%. You are insightful. I'm quite tired of Tim Keller-ish stuff. And I'm a Presbyterian. Oh how love I thy law. It is my meditation all the day. If you love me keep my commandments.
A good analysis - thank you. You did speak to one of the main problems - that Jesus commanded us to make disciples not just converts. I remember a pastor of a mega church telling us that he was driving to his church to preach and he heard, in the spirit, this huge sucking sound, like the sound of a giant baby waiting to be fed! He decided to change things so that there was an emphasis on discipleship - and he lost about two thirds of his church. I have to say that he had no regrets.
Brilliant well done Jamie.
Thank you!
This is very good! Thanks for this
Hello, brother! I'm from Brazil, so I won't pretend to know how denominations in the US apply the term "Gospel-centered". On my church we strive for practicing this culture, and I really don't understand how other people are able to separate being centered in the gospel and the practice of God's law. The thing is, Christ IS the center of the Bible, and I completely agree that the Bible is not about me (only on the extent that I'm a beneficiary of all the great things God has done for His people). But as someone who has been reached by Grace, clearly I have a responsibility to follow Jesus' steps and God's will as it is revealed in Scripture. On my church we subscribe The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, and it is clear on chapter 19 that we're not bound by ceremonial and judicial law (as those were fulfilled by Christ and were appliable to the estate of Israel respectivelly), but God's moral law (i.e. the Ten Commandments) "does for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither does Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation". To me, the gospel-centered movement is about showing how Jesus is the center of everything and we are fully and absolutely dependant on His works for salvation, but all of those who are saved show it by following closely God's will. It's a matter of salvation leading to good works not the other way around.
Such excellent work! Thank you, Jamie!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Amen and amen!
Very well said! It’s hard to precisely articulate what’s wrong about a movement that sounds so right.
That was very thought-provoking!
I think there are a few other reasons it fell apart. First, gospel-centered was code for calvinism. This introduces a Galatians 1:8-10 problem. For even if Calvinism were true, it's not the gospel. Second, this collapse happened after they gained dominance. It's as if they waited till they had taken out the non-calvinist opposition before the infighting started. This makes me skeptical of the conservatives from the movement who are now calling for our cooperation. Finally, Jonathan Pritchett makes a case that Donald Trump broke the movement, as he brought to the surface problems that they wanted to ignore and this led to the infighting! But again, your point is very insightful.
I praise God for your ministry. In ten minutes, you explained what it took me many painful is-this-all-there-is lion's-den big-EVA years to see.
Thanks so much!
We are no longer under the law…
What you were talking about is called application of the Bible.. basically go look at every Joel Osteen sermon, and he is a application preacher. He talks more about what we can do with our practical life. That is why so many people listen to him.. I actually love your video I think it is amazing!
We have to tell people what to do because they need to be like sheep. God is the shepherd he guides us by the Stillwaters He doesn’t just say hey trust me, God will lead us in practical ways..
The law is not good for us. The new covenant is better. If the law was good for us, we would still be under the law.
As a woman who fully embraced the Catholic faith (in which I was raised but not really educated) through dreams I began having many of them lucid and wrote a book about it, I was stunned so many Protestants asking if lucid dreaming was evil. The charism of dreams! I guess that makes Saint Joseph evil. It's sad.
Good stuff, brother! Keep it up!
Excellent!
The Problem with the “gospel centered movement” is in large part they fell into the same trap steven furtik fell into, which is to be as broad as possible, keep it as basic as humanely possible, and rather than with the elders lead the congregation In sanctification, proper worship, loving kindness and forgiveness, and greater knowledge of Christ, they fell into preaching to the lowest common denominator constantly, which is why most people end up leaving churches like bethel or elevation.
There is within this movement an intolerance for the Puritan mode of life (it’s filled with Gods law and looks a whole lot like “christian nationalism”) meanwhile praising the puritan theology of God and the Gospel.
When the congregation then inevitably reads the reformers, as well as the puritans and the Patristics, they realize there’s more depth to the Christian life than basically listening to acts 2 over and over again. Now go out and apply acts 2, apply the whole bible to every area of life, fight the state which murders children utilizing the Word of God as your weapon, tend to the widow, welcome the estranged, discipline the wicked among you. Fulfill the great commission the whole way through. “Make disciples” not just scholastic “gospel centered” sadducees.
Be courageous like Joshua, follow Christ in boldness, and don’t hide like tim keller when asked about what sodom and gamorrah did wrong.
Again, this doesn’t apply to everyone in this movement, and most of these men are true Christians. We just have to go deeper than they are willing.
This is why the reformed have grown in love of men like Jeff Durbin, Doug wilson, James White, Greg Bahnsen and so on, these men applied theology in life.
I remember watching as the “gospel centered” acts 29 churches started closing, meanwhile you’d see the reformed smaller churches staying open, my congregation was always small during covid (i was in the military and moved around) and the two churches i attended (both reformed baptist) had 1 no mask mandates, and openly refused to obey the wicked requirements the state desired to put on our Lords body.
Agreed!
awesome content. regards from Dublin
Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Hebrews 2:15
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Brother. Thank you
*_God Bless_*
The old churches have liturgies, the creeds, and catechisms to act as guard rails.
As long as you use the liturgical practices and traditions to point you back to scripture instead of replacing scripture you’re doing well and it takes about 500 years for someone to figure out how to abuse the system.
Great video!
Keep it up. Doing great work man.
Appreciate it!
I do appreciate the final chapter of this video, and many other parts of this, as well.
I do think that the problem is equating kindness with vagueness. Sometimes people just need to be told in no unclear terms that they are being sinful. I.e. supporting candidates who are pro-choice, pro-false marriage, etc.
One thing the gospel-centered movement did was remind Christians of a watching world.
Too often I found myself being appalled at the way professing Christians used unnecessary trigger words like the "gay lifestyle" or "Adam and Steve" that are sensitive points for the godless.
In the early 00s, when gay jokes and cruel teasing of effeminate gestures were acceptable in casual speech, how many pastors were confronting that as sin?
The more thoughtful types (Christians who wrestled with endorsing political candidates who claimed to be Christian and yet self-righteous)
would thus face a dilemma when tribalistic Christians accused them of not being real Christians because they didn't vote a certain way.
It was a different time, when the Democratic Party was not so vocally anti-Christian, and anti-everything good. Although we personally may not vote this way, could we not see how well-meaning people could have a conscience problem voting against a party that supports climate protections and and being uncomfortable with riots taking place in the Capitol?
The issues are twofold. The two sides dont often talk to each other. Doug Wilson supporters tolerate his crude speech, and Tim Keller supporters are too happy to feed on the "elementary teachings" (Heb. 6:1) for far too long.
I have a couple thoughts on this: 1) Evangelistic outreach must be accompanied by strong discipleship. Getting people "in the door" does no good for the Kingdom if they are not going to do anything inside. True revival looks more like the Jesus People movement of the 1970's where newly saved individuals would be attending church every night of the week to learn excitedly. 2) These groups you mentioned are Calvinists getting together with other Calvinists to promote the Gospel and Calvinism, rather than a true ecumenical effort to further the Kingdom. I have every reason to believe that these folks are well meaning, even if it does look like a thinly veiled power grab to an outsider. Calvinists tend to be nitpicky, pitting people like John MacArthur against people like John Piper when it comes to spiritual gifts, so it's only a matter of time before the in-grouping of discernment ministries destroys the momentum they gained. That's just one example of significant doctrinal differences, but it is not the only one.
This was BANG ON. Really well said brother. Love your content - you've got a new subscriber here. Would love to have you on the podcast sometime too if you're open to it.
Amen. When it was promised that God would write His law on our hearts of flesh rather than of stone, the first and most perfect example of this was the heart of Jesus Christ. We can distinguish between the gospel and the law, but not to separate. We draw closer to Jesus so that the law might be written in our hearts, and we draw closer to His laws in order to draw closer to Him. The person of Christ can be distinguished from the law of God that He embodies, but what makes Him unique is that there is zero discord between the two. We pursue Him whenever we pursue the same harmony within ourselves, but we must remember it is the gospel that is the softening of our hearts to change, but without understanding God’s law, we can instead soften our hearts to all sorts of false Christs.
I've really nailed it!
Hear! Hear!
I hate the doubleminded but I love thy law.
The irony for me is seeing how some shifted to the social Left, then other shifted to the social Right, both doing so while claiming to capture the intent of (or grace of) the Law correctly. One group championed theonomy (light, medium, or heavy) and the other claimed to be the prophetic (think minor and major) rebuke against the "pharisees" of Western civ. I was swayed by both but ultimately landed on Romans 7:1-6...but I've also had to wrestle with what to do with Law since my conversion thanks to family and friends in the Messianic Jewish/Hebrew Roots movement as well as BHI, so maybe my journey is different. Not to mention coming to a Protestant understanding of justification by faith alone in Christ alone. Let's not be swayed by Pharisees, Sadducees (religious or irreligious), or zealots of every stripe, brothers and sisters in Christ.
Great analysis, brother. Amazing content.
I think the theonomistic Reformed approach is helpful, but not the only way. Holiness or classic Pentecostalism also another Christian tradition that stresses the application of God's law, but avails itself of the power of the Ghost to accomplish it. Which I believe is absolutely essential.
Keep up the good work 💪
Don't tell anyone, but I'm continuationist, and agree, Pentecostalism absolutely has a strong focus on God's law applied.
@@jamie.bambrick
Your secret is safe with me. I always tell people it's important to make a distinction between classic Pentecostalism and neopentecostalism and even liberal charismaticism. One is biblical, sober, and missions focused, the later developments are prosperity oriented and full of con-artists.
I've never experienced preaching that was so "gospel-centered" that when expositing a text with an emphasis on the law,* the pastor completely ignores it, and went on to preach penal substitutionary atonement. The claim that this is widespread enough problem seems like a huge stretch.
The right preaching of law and gospel is based in this:
1. When you preach a law text, you don't do that without also pointing people to the gospel (because law without the gospel, is just a moralistic message).
2. When preaching Law, you keep in mind the 3 uses of the law-- the first being that it exposes sin, and points to our need for a Savior. The second use is civil, and the third is that the law is a guide for Christians (how we are to obey in gratitude for what Christ has done).
We should avoid the errors of both legalism (moralism) and antinomianism, which are caused by confusion of law (do) and gospel (done). Yes, God's law is good, but the law is not the gospel or "good news."
@bjkimber
Agreed.
Tim Keller brought us the key insights of The Prodigal Sons. (Yes, sons not son.)
And his points about Jonah's idolatry of nationalism was right on target for our idolatry of Uncle Sam and looking to worldly power to save us (the "Trump is my Prophet" and can do no wrong rhetoric).
And also his points about corporate guilt didn't go so well with those who don't like hearing about those parts of the Bible.
Keller's point about how non-Western cultures don't have as big a problem bearing communal responsibility as Westerners do, was a very needed one. I know this firsthand, having grown up visiting multiple cultures and countries, in the West and the East.
Keller also always criticized both the modern identity and traditional identity. How both our individualism and our tribalism are performance-based. When i listen to his critics, i dont recognize the Keller i know from all his books and sermons. It's a caricature.
Contrary to what many think, Piper (to this day) always and often tries to be level-headed, and emphasizes joy and trembling (Christian hedonism) over being scholarly.
I'm also reminded of his Ask Pastor John segments, where he dives into mature texts. So I don't know why Piper is in the thumbnail.
Keller also released a lengthy, in-depth analysis of why CRT was unbiblical, almost immediately after the culture seized on it like it was a panacea.
And while I do have a serious problem with the moral relativizing like that of Russel More (lumping all conservative nationalism as dangerous) and J. Grear (God "whispering" about hlmosexuality),
I feel very saddened that Keller and Piper are largely mischaracterized by their critics.
But yes, TGC is not what it used to be. However, I think it's not fair to lump all those who ever contributed to it as being of the same stripe, for the same reason why CRT is wrong (being blinded by our tribalistic mentalities).
(Rosaria Butterfield, for example, is very notable for taking issue with TGC's missing the mark lately).
Amen
What did you mean by "any other means than by the Holy Spirit" at 1:02 ?
Seems like the truth referenced in James 2:18-26!
You should read John Piper's What Jesus Demands from the World. It is an explanation of how to obey 50 commands of Jesus
Great video mate. This whole movement sadly showed themselves to be cowards and unfit for pastoral roles
I think your reflections are valid, however I think you’ve mischaracterised the point of “the Bible is not about you” brigade. I don’t think they were against practical applications derived from the scriptures. I think they were against imposing yourself into the scriptures, where the Bible makes you the protagonist rather than God.
However, I do think a valid concern about “self-centred” Christianity, did cause much teaching that created an unhelpful distinction between the law and gospel. There is a right distinction, just perhaps not the one the “gospel centred” movement provided.
Great video. Just my reflections
2 Corinthians 3 teaches this very thing while providing important clarifications concerning the place of the Old Covenant in regards to the New Covenant. Enjoy.
A side note, the Sabbath is not a command for the church. It is nowhere repeated as a command from Jesus. The reason is that the Sabbath was a sign of the Mosaic/Sinaitic Covenant(Ex 33) which is fulfilled in Christ (Heb 4). We find our ultimate rest in Jesus, but don't fool yourselves, you still need rest. Jesus himself was our example of this taking days beyond the Jewish Sabbath to get away and pray. Not having a Sabbath day of rest does not mean you do not need rest. As Jesus stated, "The Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath." We keep the other 9 of the 10 commandments because they were taught by Christ and are contained within Jesus commands to "Love the Lord your God... and... love your neighbor..." which is the summation of the whole law and is the foundation for the Law of Christ.
I find this video incredibly vague as to which of God's laws you're saying that the "Gospel-centered movement" neglected. It's easy to tarnish a reputation if you simply insinuate without any clarity, because your statements necessarily cannot be refuted.Is this your intention?
Sans discipleship!
Just follow 2nd commandment. Get rid of images of Jesus👀
I was waiting for you to give some practical examples of how a preacher could/should tell people to do God's law!
You referred to the 10 Commandments, but if that's what you mean, then what Jesus said covers that:
"Love The Lord your God with all your heart, sould mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself."
A true Christian, because he does love The Lord and his neighbor, fulfills these things without being told "don't steal from your neighbor."
As Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:9
"knowing this: that *the law is not made for a righteous person but for the lawless* and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers"
And in Romans 13:10,
"Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore *love IS the fulfillment of the law* "
So again, honest question, what law(s) of God should be mentioned to the Christian by the preachers?
Postmil yes?
Your cherry picking messages and speakers out of context… like chandler speaking on David
Absolute rubbish!!! the kingdom ìs not blessings and law!!! The kingdom is the central message of the bible not the gospel aka.salvation. Jesus only talked about salvation once and that to a rabbi ( Jn 3) aka religious leader. most people do NOT know what the Bible is really about because they all interpret it from a western/US mindset. Jesus said the end will come when the gospel of the kingdom is preached to all nations
Everything Jesus did all the Miracles, healing even his death and resurrection is to show people what they lost in Genesis before the fall of man. He was to have and exercise dominion. Dominion/domain/ territory/ only kings can give this kind of authority to a people who represent a king and a kingdom.
See Dr. Myles Monroe sermon on what is the kingdom of God. Westerners do not trust kings or believe in a kingdom. They trust themselves, capitalism and democracy and have fashioned a way of life and just added Jesus!!!!
IMHO, I don't think the Protestants will be able to figure out "what to do". Someone, or rather some church must have the necessary authority to decide on specific teaching or rather (in Jewish terms) "binding and loosing". That's why I, after 45 years as a Protestant, became a Catholic - so I could know "what to do" and know with a certainty that cannot be found in Protestantism. Plus many other reasons that are not relevant to this post.
Eh
Excellent!