They probably won't, they might give an teaser at New York Comic Con. It'll be interesting who they showcase there. Vox Machina for sure, since it will be the weekend before the s3 finale. Probably Rings of Power as a close out for s2. And then maybe a teaser for s3 of WoT, especially if it is going to air next spring instead of fall. Not sure what else is coming in 2025 for them to advertise. Maybe God of War? I'm not sure if that's even in production yet beyond script writing.
Yes if the plan all along was for Amazon to have a fantasy show every year, and have "alternating years" for WoT and RoP, when I can't see how they are not having one market the other.
@@ViriuZ7 if they ever get to Tarmon Gai'don, the actor playing Rand will be a middle aged man and Minn will be in her fifties. And show stans will be "yep, it's the same story. Very book accurate"
A lot are because of all the post production mainly CGI but, I've always said that I'd rather wait a little longer for it to be done right but they could absolutely get these out every 18 months. I think that would help
I've had a theory that because Amazon is spending so much on on Rings of Power but are locked into producing all 5 seasons (supposedly anyhow) that they are trying to keep costs on WoT under control with an expectation of it overperforming relative to their investment. I worry that this will inevitably create a self-fulfilling prophecy as they refuse to market it then cancel it when it performs exactly like a show that hasn't been marketed.
Amazon waiting until S3 numbers come in would mean a 2-3 year gap between 3->4. That would essentially kill the enterprise. You figure that the post-production will be done by Xmas this year so executives will finally get a chance to see what they aren't really paying that much for. Hopefully, that should help them decide that the season is a terrific. We knew after 3 episodes that S2 was far superior to S1. Should be easy to call a winning season.
Yes, I'm replying to myself. However, given the latest news about S3 potential in maximum April 2025, it is still possible that they will greenlight S4 in May, after S3 completes. Writing would begin over summer, pre-production sets and scouting in the fall, filming spring 2026, culminating by fall 2026. Post--production would begin over winter 2026-2027. Possibly S4 release fall 2027. There are a lot of ifs here, but if Amazon truly pulls in S3 release date to April 2025, then we will get S4 in 2 years, a somewhat reasonable time frame.
This was a super great video Jon. I actually liked the second half even better. The numbers/stats were very interesting and not boring at all to me! I'll continue to do my part to promote all things Wheel of Time!
the marketing has been garbage! I was so surprised at the lack of trailers or any advertising even on prime prior to the drop of s2, there was an excuse with s1 and covid but, I was very disappointed this show could be Soooooooo much more popular if they had just put it out there. It is like they want it to fail grrrrrr
I'm pretty sure that was due almost entirely to the SAG-AFTRA and writer strikes. It only ended just before the end of the season, and by then it was too late to do much.
If they want season 1 numbers for season 3, theyve already decided not to continue the show. Name a single stream only show that had better numbers in season three after S2 had lower numbers than S1.
You are right, it is effectively a cancellation announcement without being overt about it. The reality is WoT needed to build its audience with each and every season. S2 needed more viewers than S1, and S3 needs more than S2. That's what GoT did*: S1: 2.52 (average US viewers in millions) S2: 3.80 S3: 4.97 S4: 6.84 S5: 6.88 S6: 7.69 S7: 10.26 S8: 11.99 *Source is Wikipedia. That's healthy audience growth from season to season - the definition of a popular and profitable show. In contrast, WoT lost a significant proportion of its audience between S1 and S2. I don't see how it even retains its S2 audience, let alone get back to S1 numbers. Fans of WoT show expecting Sony-Amazon to keep funding such an expensive show with a declining viewership is pretty unreasonable and out of touch with how the entertainment business works.
8 episodes per season at point-five season per year equals - four episodes per year. This is probably why I had forgotten all about it, even though I was HUGELY excited when it first came out.
This is actually good news. It's accountability. Sony and Amazon are not charities, they're businesses with shareholders who expect these corporations to make sensible and fiscally responsible decisions. Continuing to throw tens (or in WoT's case, hundreds) of millions of dollars at underperforming shows is not a great plan for businesses that need to make profits. It also imposes an opportunity cost as every million spent on a poor show like WoT is a million that can't be spent on a better production by more talented writers. You understandably outline that you are not claiming the show is cancelled just because they will wait to see the audience reception for S3 before making a renewal decision. But I'll be the bad cop, this pretty well means the show is effectively cancelled because waiting until S3 is out, well into 2025, before even beginning to shoot S4 would mean a 3-4 year wait for S4 following S3. That's not sustainable, the actors are ageing out of their roles, the studios will be searching around for the 'next big thing,' WoT show will have lost all relevance and as a result audience recognition and retention will be down the gurgler. For those of you who are fans of this show, sorry, that's the reality. Enjoy S3 because it is very likely the last. For those of us who are immensely disappointed in the show, the cancellation will be a small mercy.
@@twig8523 oh please, the melodrama of claiming nasty studio execs are killing art and murdering creativity. You criticised the length of my post, but it seems you didn't understand it. The entire point is these studios are not in the business of creating esoteric 'art' (and it is funny to use such a term in relation to the WoT show, which is banal and mediocre pap) with limited appeal to audiences. Their job is to create popular content that appeals to mainstream viewers. The WoT show failed at that, and for that reason it is likely to end after season 3. That's not the tragic 'killing art' you suggested, but the normal, healthy cancellation of underperforming content.
After season 3 comes out, I doubt half of the actors would come back for a 4th season. They will have moved on making money in other avenues. They would have to film continuously with good backing from Amazon and Sony to make it work. After last March, the writers would have already written future scripts to have begun filming season 4 to retain the current actors. I felt it was over when Rosamund Pike moved back to England. Otherwise, the studios have no plans to make it work.
Considering how quickly shows like Star Trek TNG used to put out episodes, I find it hard to believe that a two-year gap between eight-episode seasons is in any way necessary. If it's because of the special effects taking a lot of time to make, I would prefer more frequent seasons with more episodes with worse special effects. I can forgive bad visuals much more easily than bad writing or not getting any new content in the first place. If the shows ends up getting fewer than six seasons, I'd prefer that they just try to make a good adaptation up to that point in the books rather than make some half-assed attempt of adapting the Last Battle.
Would be ironic that they cancel it after their most faithful and well executed season but the TV business doesn’t make sense a lot of times. Agree with others that say that if they wait until S3 airs to renew for S4, they’ve effectively canceled it already. I absolutely believe Pike returned to the UK from Prague because of the uncertainty.
The bottom line is the show is terrible. I mean besides the very loud certain side leaning voices online, those voices unfortunately don't make up the whole, everyone I know think WoT rate it at about a 5 or 6, think they've changed it too much from the source material, and the writing is atrocious. It's been a train wreck. The main hero of the story is a weird afterthought in the show. They've removed some of the best scenes from the books and used that time for nonsense. Unless season 3 takes a dramatic turn in directing and writing, I would imagine that will be it.
Thanks for the updates. TBH, the show could be blockbuster amazing in quality and I'm not sure the numbers would improve much with such little and poor marketing... plus STILL no merch or significant tie-ins.
I love this show and I'm not a book reader. Thank goodness for UA-camrs like you who keep the excitement going. I've researched both seasons 5 times. This is a bad move from Prime/Sony.
Very excited for season 3! I think your information is both accurate and expected. Unfortunately I also agree with you regarding how this type of lack of marketing and hiatus schedules really can negatively affect viewership.
Well, I'm surprised that this show popped up on my recommends again. I checked out after the season 1 finale, it was... a LOT to process (mostly negative). And I haven't thought about it in 3 years, it truly left me that disappointed. I don't agree with the decisions and the direction of the showrunner. I do think maybe Rafe should have an in-depth conversation with Brandon Sanderson and GRR Martin on adaptations and why he thinks he's a better writer than they are. But most of the time I honestly don't have the energy or time to devout to a show that let me down this badly, so I unsubscribed from all content about WOT show. And now from outside looking in, there is NO buzz about this show with trend or interest. I would be surprised if there was a season 4 whatever Sarah says, I mean why would Amazon continue to throw money away with no return.
Is this the part where I admit I stream WoT every single day as my bgm? HotD has the benefit of riding the coat tails of a very recent pop cultural juggernaut that is still forefront on a lot of the more hardcore fans' minds what with the never-ending wait for the next book. RoP also has the nostalgia factor and LotR name recognition for all of those that grew up with the movies, as well as long time fans. WoT certainly isn't a complete unknown, but I think it's impressive how well its doing compared with these larger, higher-budget shows with much wider name recognition. Especially having almost entirely non-existent promo before s2 with the strikes and all. I so badly wish we could see what it could do with more marketing ... since we'll never clear the 2 year gap :( As someone who hadn't read ANY of these books prior to watching the shows, I found WoT to be the most coherent, interesting, and with the most "heart," I guess. I know it wasn't every book-reader's cup of tea, but the WoT show made me really care about the characters and world much more than RoP and HotD, and the re-watch experience was so fun (as I hear the re-read experience is). I might watch RoP s2, but I haven't been able to muster enough interest to watch s2 of HotD.
I agree totally! I read WoT ages ago, and I don't reread books (there are always great new ones to read!) So I'm absolutely loving the TV series and have rewatched it several times. And I'm really excited for S3! I also like RoP, but it's not nearly as good as WoT. But HotD? I found it boring, unnecessarily gory (no surprises there), and not a patch on GoT. I am not watching HotD S2. Bring on WoT S3! Even if I have to wait another year or more 😊
Considering how different from the books the show has been, I'm not surprised. While there have been a few tidbits that were very good, the adaptation has not been faithful to the books. It has strayed too far in too many ways. It's been said that season 3 is expected to be closer to the books. I hope it is, and I also hope the writers have begun to understand the characters and the story in general better. If so, I'm in. If not, I won't care what happens to the show.
False hope. It's not even about folling the story, which prolly would have been better. Its the fact thatbit doesn't make sense, it contradicts itself, you cant care about the characters they're either dumb or assh&#@s, tries to hard to be clever but completely misses the mark. Its illogical and the world building is so incomplete. Its amazing that anyone can feel ok about the product.
Definitely looking forward to Wheel of Time Season 3. I don't care & will not watch Rings of Power Season 2. I am watching House of the Dragon season 2 currently.
Im not sure where even 25 million was spent on wheel of time season 2. Marketing was almost non existent. Amazon isn’t even good at marketing ON ITS OWN PLATFORM. Shits buried in a busy ux filled with content I’m not interested in.
Not only that, but I can't even find the show when it's on! I have to go type it in! WHY does Amazon have this platform set up where the show only shows up in the feed of people who have not seen it yet? If you've seen even 1 episode, then it disappear from your feed and everything else is shoved in your face
@@bevssabado3460 Keep in mind, though, that the shows back then were mostly dramas like "Grey's Anatomy" or "Desperate Housewives" that did not require a lot of post-production and fantasy shows like "Xena" or "Buffy" or "Charmed" had quite simple special effects that were not so time-consuming at all. Compare this to today's massive fantasy shows like "Wheel of Time", "The Witcher" or "Rings of Power", it's a completely different standard that's on par with big budget movie productions, so it does take about 7-8 months of post-production for each season. Sadly, with the 7-8 months of filming this adds up to nearly 16 months of production altogether and then they need to find the right slot for the show to be released, which is tough when you have two different fantasy shows like RoP and WoT shown on the same streaming network.
I think it’s very clear they are okay with killing this iteration of the show. They’ve never marketed it, the response to season 1 was generationally bad, even if it was largely due to COVID, and the show can’t find its legs with a lot of folks due to the changes, be they necessary or not.
Unfortunately, I don not think they will greenlight Season 4. If Amazon had, it would have done so already. There is no way a show can keep an audience if each season is released more than 24 months apart. (Two years ia tough enough as it is.). The show will not be able to retain all of the cast if it waits indefinitely. There were some positives and some negatives about the show. But in my opinion, the main reason why it did not take off was the lack of marketing. I do not think Amazon cared enough about this show. If Amazon gave half as much backing (I mean promotional backing, not necessarily the budget) as it did RoP, Season 4 would have been greenlighted within weeks of the end of filming for Season 3. Edit. Per Jon's video, every time above I rant about the lack of support from Amazon, add "and Sony" after the word "Amazon".
The show failed because it’s not a good show. It’s a massive disservice to the books and is especially insulting to the core 3 characters (Rand, Mat and Perrin). The writing has been awful, it’s been incredibly inaccurate to the books and I personally think it’s for the best that the show will be ending
@@the_well-known_stranger2275 if the would have made it 100% book accurate it would have been more a success im sure ofc more episodes would also have been needet
@the_well-known_stranger2275 They added a lot of useless content but omitted book content. They destroyed the great character growth of the 3 boys. The writing is almost as bad The Witcher which is too bad because the cast is outstanding. This should've been a massive success, it isn't and that's the fault of the show runners.
I expect the viewership to be lower for s3 and this not getting renewed. House of the Dragon blows both WoT and RoP out of the water. I love the books but this show didn't start great and is struggling to course correct. Hope I am wrong. Warriors last season and Perry Mason's second season had little marketing too and both were canceled with Warrior looking for a new home.
Brilliant video! Very informative. Such a shame that Wheel of Time gets less attention than Rings of Power and House of the Dragons (the latter I have not even seen), also agree 2 years between seasons is at least double the time gap it should be. Loved the comparisons with charts, too!
This new era of making an 8 episode series and taking 2 years is really annoying. I barely watch any shows as it is so waiting ages for ones I want to see really sucks.
At this point, Amazon and Sony would potentially lose more money by delaying s4 for as long as your sources indicate, than by "risking it" more and renewing s4 this year instead.. But what do I know 🤷♂
Wheel of time TV show has always been the poor cousin against ROP. With the gap between series it's no surprise that viewer apathy kicks in. I'm struggling to see how this will get past series 3 unfortunately.
Love the "Statistics" part of the video Jon. Perhaps in the absence of real WOT news, you can start a series where you answer some hard-hitting business questions we have. Such as: why do you think there is no merch? Compare merch for The Boys/other big series Amazon has.I have a theory that Red Eagle shut that down and is contuing to hamper efforts. I'd love to see a detailed breakdown of what a "profitable" episode of Wot is, like what % of profit from new subscribers/new viewers/etc goes to Amazon, what to Sony, what to Red Eagle. How many new subs has Wot brought to Amazon vs The Boys, RoP, Fallout etc. Fallout is an Amazon "in house" project. Maybe Red Eagle/iWot takes too much of the "profit." Do you think this makes WoT a less attractive investment over time, b/c they see less of the profit then their other shows? This is one thing that concerns me. Why does Amazon value new subs more than views? Yes, this ties into their shopping channel. But how exactly does this work? Don't they realize that there is not an infinite number of potential new veiwers/new subs? How many countries have Prime anyway? HBO works the same way. I'd love to know more about the whole business end of the streaming model works. A series where you break this all down, Amazon/Sony etc in particular, would be VERY interesting and be something that a lot of folks would watch. I used to watch a channel called The John Campea Show where he did this sometimes, but he turned into a Disney/Marvel shill and I quit watching.
Dude your statement at 15:49 is the reason. It's unfathomable how anyone could honestly say WoP is a better show than HOTD. If you honestly have that opinion, that's your opinion sure, but it's objectively ridiculous. The gap in competency between HOTD and both the other 2 abominations is so clear and obvious, I would check myself into a mental institute if I couldn't see that. There are a billion ways in which WoP and RoP are worse than HOTD but the no1, cardinal Sin is the through line for both and it is a combination of garbage writing, and a complete disregard for attempting to tell the story the Author wrote or imagined. And then make bs excuses like 'we had to' blah blah - well good shows like HOTD and One Piece belie that particular bullshit. And y'all like to think it's only the few red neck dinosaurs that think like this and you're so ridiculously wrong that it's hilarious. You can only polish a turd for so long before you get shit on your fingers, and Amazon and Sony have one hell of a clean-up operation in front of them. It's sad.
He just means that it's more popular than folks realize. That's it. 🙄 But for some reason, everybody thinks that the show is bombing, AND worse... Amazon is doing nothing to dispel those feelings. They don't sink any money into advertising the show, or bragging about it's numbers or nothing. It's hella frustrating.
@@KabbalahSherry Amazon gives us no numbers so we have to rely on third party like Nielsen that shows that it's doing poorly. Viewership falls off the cliff after the first three episodes. There is little online discourse or mainstream articles à la GoT. UA-cam videos about it rarely exceed the low thousands and I rarely meet any non readers in the wild who have seen the show. This is a massively popular IP. All indicators are that the core fan base turned up for the first three episodes with their families and friends and checked out. The "modern audience" didn't turn up. We can't pretend that this show with circa 13m per episode budget based on a very popular IP has lived up to expectations
I have enjoyed the great fan channels and discussion more than the show. Initially I had great hope for the show but it didn’t live up to what it could have been. They just weren’t faithful to the books, not the spirit of the books in my opinion. I watch it in hopes of catching glimpses of things and episode might do right but I wouldn’t be devastated if we didn’t get further seasons. I have hopes that someone else may remake it in the future as has been done for other great fantasy shows but that tends to happen with profitable shows. I agree that Rings of Power wasn’t good either. House of the Dragon is just done better. Writing, directing, sets, costumes, everything. The part I enjoyed best about the process of developer WoT for tv was just seeing how many people’s lives were positively effected by the books and to hear everyone talk about them and what direction the could go with it.
I have to worry that it'll just not get past 4 seasons. Rings of Power will make it to 5 because that's all they planned and it's a solid length for a story arc. 8 seasons for WoT just won't work unless they commit to it and film essentially back to back with a maximum 15month release cycle. Viewership drain and the studios cutting and running will be the result otherwise.
I'm a huge LoTR fan, but I couldn't finish ROP series. LOVED HoTD, had to watch it twice to get straight on who was who in S1 and I loved that level of nerding into it but WoT honestly is seriously close to HOTD in so many aspects it's insane when you consider the budgets!
I'm honestly surprised at how well HotD is doing. WoT is so much better! I feel HotD suffers too much from being a prequel. We know who's going to take the throne, and we know who's going to save the world from the white walkers. To me all the intrigue and fighting is wasted and boring. I'm not watching HotD S2. But I'm so excited about WoT S3! I really hope they greenlight S4 soon 😊
HoTD S2 isn't doing as well as HBO expected though. And fans are complaining in Reddit etc at the poor quality of writing and pacing compard to S1. The strikes are realy hurting the season. You can tell watching, the lack of rewrites really shows. HBO is marketing the crap out of the show though, so I believe that with enough marketing done well, you can have even a lukewarm show be successful. It is nice to see the WT influence on HoTD though! OTher channels I see have noted it. Not only in the tapestry intro, but in Ep 6 there is a shot of Alicent floating in a pond that EXACTLY looks like Egwene in the river in 1X1. When I saw it the first time I laughed. "Alicent of the Green Ajah" lol
That's really interesting! I guess the writers of these fantasy shows all watch each other's work and get inspiration 😊. HotD's people would do well to get more inspiration from WoT, it might make their show better 😂
House of the Dragon is definitely a better show than WoT or Rings of Power. I don't think it's a purely subjective opinion like you said it is because there is a clear distinction in the writing quality and ability to manage a set of characters with plot lines and narrative arcs that push through the whole season. The more I look back at the WoT show, the more I feel like Amazon and Sony are squandering an amazing opportunity. The source material is there, the character arcs are there, the fanbase is built in, the world is huge and immersive and so detailed it hurts your head. Why is the show so middling, why are there so many weird show only plots and changes that don't help anything along made? It really sucks.
There is a 30-40 year time jump for the events of the last 2 books. I have the new Expanse tie-in Kickstarter graphic novels. You could keep same actors but thee is a new generation of folks and this is not beleivable. The place where this ended was a great place to end it.
I can’t wait for season 3 and absolutely love this show. Both my wife and I love this show and we aren’t book readers!!! Prime has nobody but themselves to blame on now numbers for this show. They have got to start promoting this more. This is a total waste of a fantastic story. The problem with news like this is that many won’t push the word around they’ll just fold up and give up. They hope they don’t
Well, after the disastrous Season 1 (thanks to Rafe, who thought his fanfiction, or rather mas**rbation, was better than the original story, loved by millions), Season 2 couldn't fix the things, though it was better, yet not excellent. So it does not surprise me that Season 4 might be the last one. Sad, really sad, as Robert Jordan and the WOT fans deserve a good adaptation, made by competent people, who have respect to the source material. I don't know whether I will live to see it, but I sincerely hope that the human Rafe will forever be banned from making another fantasy adventure TV show. Also, the marketing is totally inadequate.
For HotD it's not even the complete picture. Remember its PRIMARY audience is from broadcast television. The HBO Max audience is only half the story. It is MASSIVELY more popular than either WoT or RoP. In addition, IMHO it's by far and away the best written show of the 3. It really knows how to drive character motivations and plot development in a way that WoT or RoP really failed to capture. I'm not surprised at all about its performance. I AM disappointed at the performance (and quality) of WoT, the writing does not live up to the quality of the source material and has squandered the content of Books 1-3, with really poor finales and resolutions to major plot arcs. They don't seem to want to focus on the material that made the books so good. It's maddeningly frustrating. If the show gets canceled or given a 4th season send-off, there's no one else to blame but the writing team. The content just wasn't good enough to deliver on the potential.
You should start a HoTD fan Edit channel. The writers strikes really hurt S2 in terms of quality. The pacing issues and the script. Too many dragging scenes of the Small council and Deamon tripping in Harrenhal again. The dialogu veers between excellent and boring. And I don't feel as connected with the characters this time around, it feels like the dragons have more personality than the people.
@@winters_lady170 they are other dedicated fan editors who no doubt will make a cut of HotD S2. I don't know the series well enough to do justice to it. I'll stick to completing my WoT S2 fan edit and hopefully release it this year still.
A two year gap between seasons on an eight season show? Fourteen years real world for a 2-3 year book story? Ridiculous from Amazon Prime / Sony. Never mind how unlikely you are to keep an audience, what's the chance of keeping a cast - or a cast that looks right for the story?
This show has a few problems, mainly bad season finalies, straying too far from the source, and time between seasons. The last episode should never be the weakest and, unfortunately, its happrned twice now. It leaves a bad taste for fans and makes it hard to recommend to others. Now with the source materail, i get it. They only have so many episodes to get this story on screen, but there is no reason to change fundamental rules of the lore. They take far too many liberties and sprinkle in some fan service here and there in an effort to appease us. Finally the ridiculous wait between seasons. I havent seen why. Yes the cgi looks better this go around, but its not to the point to were it should take this long. Then when you actually get to see the show it moves at a break neck speed, nothing has time to breath. All that to say i do still watch it, i adore WoT and the actors make it worth wild. Just hiping they get these issues under control so this story can live on screen.
Let's cut to the chase. I am a diehard Wheel fan, but the show has been completely underwhelming so far. The books are so grand, they are massive in description and scale and the show just hasn't captured it. I can live with the changes to the storyline ( though I spend way too much time explaining almost every scene to my non-wheel friends and family watching) the visual effects are amateurish, the scale of the armies and battles are tiny. There are supposed to be over a hundred heroes of the horn and maybe only twenty showed up on screen. The Battle of Falme was laughable compared to the book. There were supposed to be over two hundred ships with the invading Seanchan military at Falme. I counted about 50. Don't get me started on what they did to Loial! As a fan base we need to push for a better show that captures how we know the show should be! Quit giving the producers and network a free pass! Though I completely agree on the Rings of Power! That one is just plain bad.
I hope they'll greenlight S4 when they see the finished S3. Or when test audiences get at it. That's still a ways off so I guess we'll wait either way.
As long as you disconnect the show from the books, it's a great series. My son just convinced his father-in-law to watch it. So new viewers to the whole series just found! I'll watch it. But right now I am more interested in knitting while listening to audio books rather than watching anything on tv right now.
Amazon has put themselves in a catch 22, a percentage of the book fans don't like the show because it is not a "faithful" recreation of the books. The show is interesting enough in its own right that it has attracted viewers that never read the books, but those viewers aren't invested enough to reliably wait two years for the next season.
Jon. I am a dire hard WoT book fan and I enjoy the WoT show. I also did not enjoy Season 1 of RoP. That said, I think you are comparing apples to oranges. After Season 2 of RoP is complete, you should compare the numbers you used in this video for WoT Season 2 with RoP Season 2.
For me i would wait if we see writer rooms or anything by end of the year, because potentially amazon waits to see ROP results to confirm their bet on bit fantasy shows. I do not think they will cancel it, at least i hope 🤞🤞
My problem with sony/Amazon originals is that they have obviously had some consult calculate them the formula of "a perfect show" regarding episode numbers, production schedules and everything, and now they just seem to copy paste it to every single show instead of figuring out what the story in question actually needs in order to make the most of it. They just try to make "the next Game of thrones". The problem with that is, the big reason game of thrones became popular in the first place was the fact it didnt try to be "the next" anything but instead was doing its own thing.🙄 As someone who is a huge fan of all of these original source materials (Tolkien, WOT, G.R.R. Martin books), I'd say House of the dragon is my no1 favourite (both as a show and as an adaptation). WOT comes second and Rings of Power I dont even want to put on a list because they made it just another generic fantasy show that has next to nothing to do with Tolkiens writings or LotR lore. 🙈
Ironically, Amazon did better with other properties besides fantasy. Their shows with the most views are either action thrillers / spy book adaptations (Reacher, Jack Ryan), a comic book adaptation (The Boys) and a video game adaptation (Fallout).
It doesn't really matter what I think, but here goes anyway. I watched Rings of Power I won't waste my time watching it again, end of story. I do watch House of the Dragon but season 2 has me often wondering why. Many content creators and other followers of the general GoT stuff defend it by saying people just don't have the attention span to watch dialogue and only want to see action. I think that could be true for some but mostly it's just bad dialogue, it's boring and even though I've read the book it seems to do little to move the story forward. It's also has a ridiculous amount of gratuitous nudity and strong unnecessary sexual themes that are distracting. So I am less and less interested each week and don't wonder why there are only 8 episodes this season. I have heard that season 4 of Wheel of Time is already a go although I cannot say where I got that information. Nevertheless there absolutely has to be more marketing or no one will know it exists. Fandom generated marketing has reached its capacity, I don't see how we could do more.
Truth of the matter is, Sony/Amazon had gold in their hands with Wheel of Time and they completely and utterly bungled it. Whatever happens, I hope Rosamund Pike will narrate all WOT books regardless, because I think she is doing an amazing job on those.
I really do fed up with great shows that take so long to release new seasons and cut down to only 8 episodes?? I was watching supernatural, the Connors and they both had 22 episodes each season.. I loved Stranger things but they put seasons off so much the kids grew up? I understand when they made the harry potter Movies bc the author was still writing books..but a lot of these shows have books already written ..wheel of time, Lord of rings? Etc.. I am ready to go back to regular TV. Where the hiatious between seasons is way shorter...I'll save up all the fantasy shows and watch straight through.... P.s. I want more shows per season..if you agree let me know..🤗
WOT is dead at Amazon. The writing is on the wall here. I'm a huge fan of the books, but this adaptation has been disappointing in a myriad of ways. We probably won't see another attempt to adapt this material until AI reaches a point where you can just feed it books and it will produce multi-hour live action material. Nobody is going to finance the money necessary to adapt WOT in a traditional manner after this attempt.
God help us if society gets to a point where AI is producing all of our entertainment, since it can't actually "create" anything by itself. 🤦🏻♀️🙄 It still needs Humans to do that for it... while it simply takes our words & concepts & jumbles something out of THAT. Not to mention, what will happen to regular folks if we let A.I. do literally everything for us?? We're not gonna be sitting around sipping martinis while robots & A.I. do all the work for us, like how everybody thinks it will go. The bottom line is: the wealthy don't want us to have what THEY do. Period. If they did, all these Billion dollar companies you see would be paying folks a liveable wage NOW. But they aren't. And they would happily do away with their entire human work force, if they thought they could. So let's plz not even JOKE about that happening. We'd literally be celebrating our own doom. Reminds me of Westworld, when all those rich people from the Delos corp were sitting around patting themselves on the back for creating such life-like robots, etc. Letting A.I. programs "create" all of the media that Humanity takes in, might not create huge problems for ourselves now... but our ancestors will sure hate us for it later, I know that much. We won't be seen as the visionaries we think we will.
I'm really looking forward to season 3 and I hope they do green light season 4 soon. I really hope it isn't cancelled. I never watched Rings of Power... I didn't hear positive things about it. I wasn't a fan of what I saw in GoT and didn't get far in the series... I have no interest in House of the Dragon. 2 years between seasons is too much. It might work for shows in the UK, because it seems a lot do that, but in North America, we're used to shorter breaks and people have short attention span... I think the lack of marketing is the biggest killer though. I've seen NO marketing for WoT anywhere other than by fans. Every time I turn on the TV I see ads for House of the Dragon... I mean, I just watch the news randomly or the Amazing Race (the only things I watch on tv) and CTV will show HotD ads on about ever commercial break! They need to make people know the show exists or it won't gain viewership. I hope they market season 3 better and people learn the show exists and it's the best, most successful season ever.
They also didn't put in any effort to create additional, online content promoting it and/or that explained more of the world building. They made those wonderful animated shorts for season 1, and I assumed there would be some for season 2 but then... nothing. 😒 Who is making these awful decisions to ignore the show the way they are?!
@@thecaracarn6544- I agree! 😃🎮 I was skeptical about playing the TellTale Game of Thrones game years ago. I figured it'd be sh*t, but it was cheap & I enjoyed Tell Tale's games, so I thought why not? And I ended up absolutely loving it, and was sad that it didn't continue. Mostly cuz Tell Tale fell apart, but I digress. lol Point is: if somebody was to make an amazing Wheel of Time fantasy game, it would bring the show sooo much more popularity. Problem is, they would have needed to already have gotten started on creating the game years ago. Even if they started working on a WoT game tomorrow... it wouldn't be ready until like a season 5 or 6 of the TV show. (Depending on how much time there is between seasons) In other words... it's already too late for a game to save the show.
I really do hope season 3 will be the last. I wish the best for the actors and think they deserve to be in better productions than what this show can offer.
Wow, ST:TNG initial early budget was well below all mentioned here, but as part of a Franchise ran really really well. I think the issue is Streaming Platforms still dont know how to do things, 8 episodes a season is a joke.
Hoping for the best but I fear S3 will be the last one. I can see S3 maybe improve on the S2 numbers without the strikes and better marketing etc. Still I don't see S3 having a massive increase in its viewership when it premiers. I don't really see that much new interest in the show. I have not seen many new reactors etc that started watching the show after season 2, because of word of mouth etc that S2 was better. Also with 2+ years between seasons I am not sure I really want 8 seasons, Rand's actor would be around 40 and Min's 50. Maybe its better if we get a great S3 and then it ends.
If one of the first few episodes is a breakout success they might get the surge in viewership that they want as people talk it up and get coworkers and acquaintances watching for the rest of the season. I never once saw WoT on social media outside of WoT and WoT-adjacent fanspaces. By contrast I didn't even watch Rings of Power and it still managed to escape containment and show up in non-fantasy-genre mainstream social media. And I haven't watched House of the Dragon either, but it's all over mainstream media, being referenced on late-night comedy shows, etc, etc. WoT season 3 could go viral. It could happen. But if it doesn't, I agree season 4 may not happen at all
From what we've heard, S3 ends on book 4, so it's not a real conclusion to the series. All the other Amazon shows I've watched had some kind of conclusion, except for the ones that lasted only one season (like Citadel, Paper Girls). So Amazon's track record is to give warning to the showrunner that they're not going to be renewed and have a final season to wrap things up. Amazon seems to be trying to avoid Netflix's error of cancelling shows without conclusion (like 1899). Man in the High Castle, Carnival Row, all received a final season. The first one had a change of showrunners for that final season (probably the original ones didn't take well to the cancelling). But they received that final season. So I doubt Amazon cancels it in season 3. If the numbers are bad they tell the showrunner to wrap it up in a final season. If the showrunner refuses, they find another one to replace.
Funny. Nothing I said in my videos said either of those things. I love the show, they haven't committed to S4 yet, and I prove that WoT is more value for money (and doing better) than RoP.
Doesn't sound too promising. But if it is not renewed I really really really wish someone will make WoT into a fab animated show. I believe an animated format fits the story and all of its visual effects much better.
HBO have created a show that respects the source material and the author. Unfortunately Amazon has not with its tentpole fantasy shows. There is a certain kind of proof in the viewing figures. I love The Wheel of Time and always hope for it to succeed but I just can't and don't recommend the show to anyone.
I think there is politics behind this. A lot of people want Rings of Power to make a strong comeback this season. These people are not just anybody after seeing what is happening to Disney people have started to have demands on entertainment in particular.
I see your point, but comparing Wheel of Time success and value, to RoP, which is a really really bad value proposition at this point, doesn't necessarily mean that WoT is a GOOD investment, just that its better value than something that currently looks to be a TERRIBLE value.
I thought season 2 was better than season 1, and if season 3 again ups the ante, I hope it can gain better traction. I hope people who may have already formed their opinion after season 1 would give it another chance.
They have never invested the money to make WOT what it needs to be to complete with these established IPs. If they don’t increase their budget the show will stall out from lack of viewers
Sad but not surprised. S1 was bad. S2 was better in comparison but it still wasn't a great show. That coupled with the lack of marketing and the lengthy production timelines, I just don't know if this show can survive. I will say Rings of Power is a hot mess and I fear that it's pulling WOT down with it.
They absolute NEED to put a trailer for season 3 of Wheel of Time before the episode finale of Rings of power.
They probably won't, they might give an teaser at New York Comic Con. It'll be interesting who they showcase there.
Vox Machina for sure, since it will be the weekend before the s3 finale. Probably Rings of Power as a close out for s2.
And then maybe a teaser for s3 of WoT, especially if it is going to air next spring instead of fall. Not sure what else is coming in 2025 for them to advertise. Maybe God of War? I'm not sure if that's even in production yet beyond script writing.
Yes if the plan all along was for Amazon to have a fantasy show every year, and have "alternating years" for WoT and RoP, when I can't see how they are not having one market the other.
This 2 years between each season doesn't work. It'll demolish entire shows.
Isn't every show 2 years between seasons now?
@@ViriuZ7 Almost, and it's a problem with scheduling. Amazon just doesn't get it.
@@ViriuZ7 Most shows don't need 7-8 seasons to tell the entire story, they are cutting too much know.
@@ViriuZ7 if they ever get to Tarmon Gai'don, the actor playing Rand will be a middle aged man and Minn will be in her fifties. And show stans will be "yep, it's the same story. Very book accurate"
A lot are because of all the post production mainly CGI but, I've always said that I'd rather wait a little longer for it to be done right but they could absolutely get these out every 18 months. I think that would help
I've had a theory that because Amazon is spending so much on on Rings of Power but are locked into producing all 5 seasons (supposedly anyhow) that they are trying to keep costs on WoT under control with an expectation of it overperforming relative to their investment. I worry that this will inevitably create a self-fulfilling prophecy as they refuse to market it then cancel it when it performs exactly like a show that hasn't been marketed.
Amazon would prefer 2 successful shows than 1
Honestly a casual budget can also just force them to be creative and that scarcity sometimes makes the best product
Too bad rings of power is so BAD.
Amazon waiting until S3 numbers come in would mean a 2-3 year gap between 3->4. That would essentially kill the enterprise. You figure that the post-production will be done by Xmas this year so executives will finally get a chance to see what they aren't really paying that much for. Hopefully, that should help them decide that the season is a terrific. We knew after 3 episodes that S2 was far superior to S1. Should be easy to call a winning season.
It feels like a show that has to be renewed early or not at all. People not under contract will eventually look for other work. Among other issues.
There will never be season 4. It was clear from the beginning.
@@matejsochor1673another genius 🤣
@@matejsochor1673 You bet your a** there will be.
Yes, I'm replying to myself. However, given the latest news about S3 potential in maximum April 2025, it is still possible that they will greenlight S4 in May, after S3 completes. Writing would begin over summer, pre-production sets and scouting in the fall, filming spring 2026, culminating by fall 2026. Post--production would begin over winter 2026-2027. Possibly S4 release fall 2027. There are a lot of ifs here, but if Amazon truly pulls in S3 release date to April 2025, then we will get S4 in 2 years, a somewhat reasonable time frame.
This was a super great video Jon. I actually liked the second half even better. The numbers/stats were very interesting and not boring at all to me! I'll continue to do my part to promote all things Wheel of Time!
You sir are a absolute gem and a credit to the fandom!!
I’m so excited for season 3, and disappointed that they are doing two years between each season 😞
its just plain stupid, amazon s*****
On the plus side it's a great reason to binge watch the entire series again.
the marketing has been garbage! I was so surprised at the lack of trailers or any advertising even on prime prior to the drop of s2, there was an excuse with s1 and covid but, I was very disappointed this show could be Soooooooo much more popular if they had just put it out there. It is like they want it to fail grrrrrr
I'm pretty sure that was due almost entirely to the SAG-AFTRA and writer strikes. It only ended just before the end of the season, and by then it was too late to do much.
@@malifex9922 Neither Rafe nor the Cast was able to advertise the show.
@@Harldin YEs butr Rafe fucked everythign else up
If they want season 1 numbers for season 3, theyve already decided not to continue the show. Name a single stream only show that had better numbers in season three after S2 had lower numbers than S1.
You are right, it is effectively a cancellation announcement without being overt about it.
The reality is WoT needed to build its audience with each and every season. S2 needed more viewers than S1, and S3 needs more than S2.
That's what GoT did*:
S1: 2.52 (average US viewers in millions)
S2: 3.80
S3: 4.97
S4: 6.84
S5: 6.88
S6: 7.69
S7: 10.26
S8: 11.99
*Source is Wikipedia.
That's healthy audience growth from season to season - the definition of a popular and profitable show.
In contrast, WoT lost a significant proportion of its audience between S1 and S2. I don't see how it even retains its S2 audience, let alone get back to S1 numbers.
Fans of WoT show expecting Sony-Amazon to keep funding such an expensive show with a declining viewership is pretty unreasonable and out of touch with how the entertainment business works.
8 episodes per season at point-five season per year equals - four episodes per year. This is probably why I had forgotten all about it, even though I was HUGELY excited when it first came out.
The two year gap between seasons is really hurting these shows. Even HOTD numbers are way smaller this season compared to season 1
This is actually good news. It's accountability. Sony and Amazon are not charities, they're businesses with shareholders who expect these corporations to make sensible and fiscally responsible decisions.
Continuing to throw tens (or in WoT's case, hundreds) of millions of dollars at underperforming shows is not a great plan for businesses that need to make profits. It also imposes an opportunity cost as every million spent on a poor show like WoT is a million that can't be spent on a better production by more talented writers.
You understandably outline that you are not claiming the show is cancelled just because they will wait to see the audience reception for S3 before making a renewal decision. But I'll be the bad cop, this pretty well means the show is effectively cancelled because waiting until S3 is out, well into 2025, before even beginning to shoot S4 would mean a 3-4 year wait for S4 following S3.
That's not sustainable, the actors are ageing out of their roles, the studios will be searching around for the 'next big thing,' WoT show will have lost all relevance and as a result audience recognition and retention will be down the gurgler.
For those of you who are fans of this show, sorry, that's the reality. Enjoy S3 because it is very likely the last. For those of us who are immensely disappointed in the show, the cancellation will be a small mercy.
That's a lot of words to say what everyone already knows: profit-driven studio execs kill art & murder creativity.
@@twig8523 oh please, the melodrama of claiming nasty studio execs are killing art and murdering creativity. You criticised the length of my post, but it seems you didn't understand it.
The entire point is these studios are not in the business of creating esoteric 'art' (and it is funny to use such a term in relation to the WoT show, which is banal and mediocre pap) with limited appeal to audiences.
Their job is to create popular content that appeals to mainstream viewers. The WoT show failed at that, and for that reason it is likely to end after season 3. That's not the tragic 'killing art' you suggested, but the normal, healthy cancellation of underperforming content.
I can't say that I'm surprised. I'm disappointed, but not surprised
Really enjoyed all the stats!!! Looking forward to S3 & hope they knock it out of the park!
I’m excited about both the rings and WoT series, but I HATE waiting two years
After season 3 comes out, I doubt half of the actors would come back for a 4th season. They will have moved on making money in other avenues. They would have to film continuously with good backing from Amazon and Sony to make it work. After last March, the writers would have already written future scripts to have begun filming season 4 to retain the current actors. I felt it was over when Rosamund Pike moved back to England. Otherwise, the studios have no plans to make it work.
Considering how quickly shows like Star Trek TNG used to put out episodes, I find it hard to believe that a two-year gap between eight-episode seasons is in any way necessary. If it's because of the special effects taking a lot of time to make, I would prefer more frequent seasons with more episodes with worse special effects. I can forgive bad visuals much more easily than bad writing or not getting any new content in the first place.
If the shows ends up getting fewer than six seasons, I'd prefer that they just try to make a good adaptation up to that point in the books rather than make some half-assed attempt of adapting the Last Battle.
Would be ironic that they cancel it after their most faithful and well executed season but the TV business doesn’t make sense a lot of times.
Agree with others that say that if they wait until S3 airs to renew for S4, they’ve effectively canceled it already.
I absolutely believe Pike returned to the UK from Prague because of the uncertainty.
A bunch of cast were just photo together
Isn’t that an assumption at this stage? We already know some likely big deviations from the books
@@SamJ-jf6kw more likely her character fell through a door
Yeah, I don't think she will be needed for a while
The bottom line is the show is terrible. I mean besides the very loud certain side leaning voices online, those voices unfortunately don't make up the whole, everyone I know think WoT rate it at about a 5 or 6, think they've changed it too much from the source material, and the writing is atrocious. It's been a train wreck. The main hero of the story is a weird afterthought in the show. They've removed some of the best scenes from the books and used that time for nonsense. Unless season 3 takes a dramatic turn in directing and writing, I would imagine that will be it.
Thanks for the updates. TBH, the show could be blockbuster amazing in quality and I'm not sure the numbers would improve much with such little and poor marketing... plus STILL no merch or significant tie-ins.
I love this show and I'm not a book reader. Thank goodness for UA-camrs like you who keep the excitement going. I've researched both seasons 5 times. This is a bad move from Prime/Sony.
Very excited for season 3! I think your information is both accurate and expected. Unfortunately I also agree with you regarding how this type of lack of marketing and hiatus schedules really can negatively affect viewership.
Unravelling the Pattern sent me your way! Great video. Thanks!
Thank you!
Well, I'm surprised that this show popped up on my recommends again.
I checked out after the season 1 finale, it was... a LOT to process (mostly negative). And I haven't thought about it in 3 years, it truly left me that disappointed. I don't agree with the decisions and the direction of the showrunner. I do think maybe Rafe should have an in-depth conversation with Brandon Sanderson and GRR Martin on adaptations and why he thinks he's a better writer than they are. But most of the time I honestly don't have the energy or time to devout to a show that let me down this badly, so I unsubscribed from all content about WOT show. And now from outside looking in, there is NO buzz about this show with trend or interest. I would be surprised if there was a season 4 whatever Sarah says, I mean why would Amazon continue to throw money away with no return.
Is this the part where I admit I stream WoT every single day as my bgm?
HotD has the benefit of riding the coat tails of a very recent pop cultural juggernaut that is still forefront on a lot of the more hardcore fans' minds what with the never-ending wait for the next book.
RoP also has the nostalgia factor and LotR name recognition for all of those that grew up with the movies, as well as long time fans.
WoT certainly isn't a complete unknown, but I think it's impressive how well its doing compared with these larger, higher-budget shows with much wider name recognition. Especially having almost entirely non-existent promo before s2 with the strikes and all. I so badly wish we could see what it could do with more marketing ... since we'll never clear the 2 year gap :(
As someone who hadn't read ANY of these books prior to watching the shows, I found WoT to be the most coherent, interesting, and with the most "heart," I guess. I know it wasn't every book-reader's cup of tea, but the WoT show made me really care about the characters and world much more than RoP and HotD, and the re-watch experience was so fun (as I hear the re-read experience is). I might watch RoP s2, but I haven't been able to muster enough interest to watch s2 of HotD.
I agree totally! I read WoT ages ago, and I don't reread books (there are always great new ones to read!) So I'm absolutely loving the TV series and have rewatched it several times. And I'm really excited for S3! I also like RoP, but it's not nearly as good as WoT. But HotD? I found it boring, unnecessarily gory (no surprises there), and not a patch on GoT. I am not watching HotD S2. Bring on WoT S3! Even if I have to wait another year or more 😊
I revisited them all on audiobook on the drive to work and really enjoyed it 👍
Considering how different from the books the show has been, I'm not surprised. While there have been a few tidbits that were very good, the adaptation has not been faithful to the books. It has strayed too far in too many ways.
It's been said that season 3 is expected to be closer to the books. I hope it is, and I also hope the writers have begun to understand the characters and the story in general better. If so, I'm in. If not, I won't care what happens to the show.
False hope. It's not even about folling the story, which prolly would have been better. Its the fact thatbit doesn't make sense, it contradicts itself, you cant care about the characters they're either dumb or assh&#@s, tries to hard to be clever but completely misses the mark. Its illogical and the world building is so incomplete. Its amazing that anyone can feel ok about the product.
Definitely looking forward to Wheel of Time Season 3. I don't care & will not watch Rings of Power Season 2. I am watching House of the Dragon season 2 currently.
Im not sure where even 25 million was spent on wheel of time season 2. Marketing was almost non existent. Amazon isn’t even good at marketing ON ITS OWN PLATFORM. Shits buried in a busy ux filled with content I’m not interested in.
Not only that, but I can't even find the show when it's on! I have to go type it in! WHY does Amazon have this platform set up where the show only shows up in the feed of people who have not seen it yet? If you've seen even 1 episode, then it disappear from your feed and everything else is shoved in your face
I remember 26 episodes per season.
Yes! and also come out yearly, none of this 2yrs or more gap in between
@@bevssabado3460 Keep in mind, though, that the shows back then were mostly dramas like "Grey's Anatomy" or "Desperate Housewives" that did not require a lot of post-production and fantasy shows like "Xena" or "Buffy" or "Charmed" had quite simple special effects that were not so time-consuming at all. Compare this to today's massive fantasy shows like "Wheel of Time", "The Witcher" or "Rings of Power", it's a completely different standard that's on par with big budget movie productions, so it does take about 7-8 months of post-production for each season. Sadly, with the 7-8 months of filming this adds up to nearly 16 months of production altogether and then they need to find the right slot for the show to be released, which is tough when you have two different fantasy shows like RoP and WoT shown on the same streaming network.
I think it’s very clear they are okay with killing this iteration of the show. They’ve never marketed it, the response to season 1 was generationally bad, even if it was largely due to COVID, and the show can’t find its legs with a lot of folks due to the changes, be they necessary or not.
Ok Whatever the cost people watch this show so we can see more Seasons of the Wheel of Time!!!
Unfortunately, I don not think they will greenlight Season 4. If Amazon had, it would have done so already. There is no way a show can keep an audience if each season is released more than 24 months apart. (Two years ia tough enough as it is.). The show will not be able to retain all of the cast if it waits indefinitely.
There were some positives and some negatives about the show. But in my opinion, the main reason why it did not take off was the lack of marketing. I do not think Amazon cared enough about this show. If Amazon gave half as much backing (I mean promotional backing, not necessarily the budget) as it did RoP, Season 4 would have been greenlighted within weeks of the end of filming for Season 3.
Edit. Per Jon's video, every time above I rant about the lack of support from Amazon, add "and Sony" after the word "Amazon".
The show failed because it’s not a good show. It’s a massive disservice to the books and is especially insulting to the core 3 characters (Rand, Mat and Perrin). The writing has been awful, it’s been incredibly inaccurate to the books and I personally think it’s for the best that the show will be ending
@@the_well-known_stranger2275 if the would have made it 100% book accurate it would have been more a success im sure ofc more episodes would also have been needet
@the_well-known_stranger2275 They added a lot of useless content but omitted book content. They destroyed the great character growth of the 3 boys. The writing is almost as bad The Witcher which is too bad because the cast is outstanding. This should've been a massive success, it isn't and that's the fault of the show runners.
Thanks for the update, and here's hoping that you're wrong...
I expect the viewership to be lower for s3 and this not getting renewed. House of the Dragon blows both WoT and RoP out of the water. I love the books but this show didn't start great and is struggling to course correct. Hope I am wrong. Warriors last season and Perry Mason's second season had little marketing too and both were canceled with Warrior looking for a new home.
This is so frustrating, my heart broke. Damn RoP!
Devastated to watch this video
It's not as bad as it seems. This just gives us an idea of what could happen, and what we may need to do!
Brilliant video! Very informative. Such a shame that Wheel of Time gets less attention than Rings of Power and House of the Dragons (the latter I have not even seen), also agree 2 years between seasons is at least double the time gap it should be. Loved the comparisons with charts, too!
This new era of making an 8 episode series and taking 2 years is really annoying. I barely watch any shows as it is so waiting ages for ones I want to see really sucks.
At this point, Amazon and Sony would potentially lose more money by delaying s4 for as long as your sources indicate, than by "risking it" more and renewing s4 this year instead..
But what do I know 🤷♂
Wheel of time TV show has always been the poor cousin against ROP.
With the gap between series it's no surprise that viewer apathy kicks in. I'm struggling to see how this will get past series 3 unfortunately.
Love the "Statistics" part of the video Jon. Perhaps in the absence of real WOT news, you can start a series where you answer some hard-hitting business questions we have.
Such as: why do you think there is no merch? Compare merch for The Boys/other big series Amazon has.I have a theory that Red Eagle shut that down and is contuing to hamper efforts.
I'd love to see a detailed breakdown of what a "profitable" episode of Wot is, like what % of profit from new subscribers/new viewers/etc goes to Amazon, what to Sony, what to Red Eagle. How many new subs has Wot brought to Amazon vs The Boys, RoP, Fallout etc. Fallout is an Amazon "in house" project. Maybe Red Eagle/iWot takes too much of the "profit." Do you think this makes WoT a less attractive investment over time, b/c they see less of the profit then their other shows? This is one thing that concerns me.
Why does Amazon value new subs more than views? Yes, this ties into their shopping channel. But how exactly does this work? Don't they realize that there is not an infinite number of potential new veiwers/new subs? How many countries have Prime anyway? HBO works the same way.
I'd love to know more about the whole business end of the streaming model works. A series where you break this all down, Amazon/Sony etc in particular, would be VERY interesting and be something that a lot of folks would watch.
I used to watch a channel called The John Campea Show where he did this sometimes, but he turned into a Disney/Marvel shill and I quit watching.
Dude your statement at 15:49 is the reason. It's unfathomable how anyone could honestly say WoP is a better show than HOTD. If you honestly have that opinion, that's your opinion sure, but it's objectively ridiculous. The gap in competency between HOTD and both the other 2 abominations is so clear and obvious, I would check myself into a mental institute if I couldn't see that. There are a billion ways in which WoP and RoP are worse than HOTD but the no1, cardinal Sin is the through line for both and it is a combination of garbage writing, and a complete disregard for attempting to tell the story the Author wrote or imagined. And then make bs excuses like 'we had to' blah blah - well good shows like HOTD and One Piece belie that particular bullshit. And y'all like to think it's only the few red neck dinosaurs that think like this and you're so ridiculously wrong that it's hilarious. You can only polish a turd for so long before you get shit on your fingers, and Amazon and Sony have one hell of a clean-up operation in front of them. It's sad.
If I have a dollar for how many times I've heard Jon say that the show is wildly popular, I'd be a rich man. So nothing to worry about, right, Jon?
He just means that it's more popular than folks realize. That's it. 🙄 But for some reason, everybody thinks that the show is bombing, AND worse... Amazon is doing nothing to dispel those feelings. They don't sink any money into advertising the show, or bragging about it's numbers or nothing. It's hella frustrating.
@@KabbalahSherry Amazon gives us no numbers so we have to rely on third party like Nielsen that shows that it's doing poorly. Viewership falls off the cliff after the first three episodes. There is little online discourse or mainstream articles à la GoT. UA-cam videos about it rarely exceed the low thousands and I rarely meet any non readers in the wild who have seen the show.
This is a massively popular IP. All indicators are that the core fan base turned up for the first three episodes with their families and friends and checked out. The "modern audience" didn't turn up.
We can't pretend that this show with circa 13m per episode budget based on a very popular IP has lived up to expectations
If u don’t do any marketing, then viewing numbers won’t reach for the sky, regardless of the quality of content
I have enjoyed the great fan channels and discussion more than the show. Initially I had great hope for the show but it didn’t live up to what it could have been. They just weren’t faithful to the books, not the spirit of the books in my opinion. I watch it in hopes of catching glimpses of things and episode might do right but I wouldn’t be devastated if we didn’t get further seasons. I have hopes that someone else may remake it in the future as has been done for other great fantasy shows but that tends to happen with profitable shows.
I agree that Rings of Power wasn’t good either. House of the Dragon is just done better. Writing, directing, sets, costumes, everything.
The part I enjoyed best about the process of developer WoT for tv was just seeing how many people’s lives were positively effected by the books and to hear everyone talk about them and what direction the could go with it.
Wow! What The Wheel Of Time does on such a little budget is crazy
When are we supposed to get S3
I have to worry that it'll just not get past 4 seasons. Rings of Power will make it to 5 because that's all they planned and it's a solid length for a story arc. 8 seasons for WoT just won't work unless they commit to it and film essentially back to back with a maximum 15month release cycle. Viewership drain and the studios cutting and running will be the result otherwise.
I'm a huge LoTR fan, but I couldn't finish ROP series.
LOVED HoTD, had to watch it twice to get straight on who was who in S1 and I loved that level of nerding into it
but WoT honestly is seriously close to HOTD in so many aspects it's insane when you consider the budgets!
I'm honestly surprised at how well HotD is doing. WoT is so much better! I feel HotD suffers too much from being a prequel. We know who's going to take the throne, and we know who's going to save the world from the white walkers. To me all the intrigue and fighting is wasted and boring. I'm not watching HotD S2. But I'm so excited about WoT S3! I really hope they greenlight S4 soon 😊
HoTD S2 isn't doing as well as HBO expected though. And fans are complaining in Reddit etc at the poor quality of writing and pacing compard to S1. The strikes are realy hurting the season. You can tell watching, the lack of rewrites really shows. HBO is marketing the crap out of the show though, so I believe that with enough marketing done well, you can have even a lukewarm show be successful.
It is nice to see the WT influence on HoTD though! OTher channels I see have noted it. Not only in the tapestry intro, but in Ep 6 there is a shot of Alicent floating in a pond that EXACTLY looks like Egwene in the river in 1X1. When I saw it the first time I laughed. "Alicent of the Green Ajah" lol
That's really interesting! I guess the writers of these fantasy shows all watch each other's work and get inspiration 😊. HotD's people would do well to get more inspiration from WoT, it might make their show better 😂
If S4 does not get greenlit (for whatever reason), I fear it's going to be nigh impossible for any future adaptations to be brought to life.
Not in our lifetimes. 🤷🏻♀️😫 And meanwhile... Harry Potter is getting a new adaption of the books that nobody even asked for. Ridiculous.
House of the Dragon is definitely a better show than WoT or Rings of Power. I don't think it's a purely subjective opinion like you said it is because there is a clear distinction in the writing quality and ability to manage a set of characters with plot lines and narrative arcs that push through the whole season.
The more I look back at the WoT show, the more I feel like Amazon and Sony are squandering an amazing opportunity. The source material is there, the character arcs are there, the fanbase is built in, the world is huge and immersive and so detailed it hurts your head. Why is the show so middling, why are there so many weird show only plots and changes that don't help anything along made? It really sucks.
2 years between seasons means we'll never make it to the end. The actors' ages are going to become an issue.
They should absolutely ditch the rings of power! It was a try and it ended up as a mistake!
also the expanse got picked up by amazon and ...then shortened & canceled...
There is a 30-40 year time jump for the events of the last 2 books. I have the new Expanse tie-in Kickstarter graphic novels. You could keep same actors but thee is a new generation of folks and this is not beleivable. The place where this ended was a great place to end it.
I can’t wait for season 3 and absolutely love this show. Both my wife and I love this show and we aren’t book readers!!! Prime has nobody but themselves to blame on now numbers for this show. They have got to start promoting this more. This is a total waste of a fantastic story. The problem with news like this is that many won’t push the word around they’ll just fold up and give up. They hope they don’t
Well, after the disastrous Season 1 (thanks to Rafe, who thought his fanfiction, or rather mas**rbation, was better than the original story, loved by millions), Season 2 couldn't fix the things, though it was better, yet not excellent. So it does not surprise me that Season 4 might be the last one. Sad, really sad, as Robert Jordan and the WOT fans deserve a good adaptation, made by competent people, who have respect to the source material. I don't know whether I will live to see it, but I sincerely hope that the human Rafe will forever be banned from making another fantasy adventure TV show.
Also, the marketing is totally inadequate.
++
I just don't understand. Are they relying on influencers for "marketing" in the United States? That's the only thing I can think of
For HotD it's not even the complete picture. Remember its PRIMARY audience is from broadcast television. The HBO Max audience is only half the story. It is MASSIVELY more popular than either WoT or RoP.
In addition, IMHO it's by far and away the best written show of the 3. It really knows how to drive character motivations and plot development in a way that WoT or RoP really failed to capture. I'm not surprised at all about its performance. I AM disappointed at the performance (and quality) of WoT, the writing does not live up to the quality of the source material and has squandered the content of Books 1-3, with really poor finales and resolutions to major plot arcs. They don't seem to want to focus on the material that made the books so good. It's maddeningly frustrating.
If the show gets canceled or given a 4th season send-off, there's no one else to blame but the writing team. The content just wasn't good enough to deliver on the potential.
You should start a HoTD fan Edit channel. The writers strikes really hurt S2 in terms of quality. The pacing issues and the script. Too many dragging scenes of the Small council and Deamon tripping in Harrenhal again. The dialogu veers between excellent and boring. And I don't feel as connected with the characters this time around, it feels like the dragons have more personality than the people.
@@winters_lady170 they are other dedicated fan editors who no doubt will make a cut of HotD S2. I don't know the series well enough to do justice to it. I'll stick to completing my WoT S2 fan edit and hopefully release it this year still.
I am sure if they stayed alittle more closer to the original story they may have more people watching the show.
Really need more marketing and a more faithful adaptation of Shadow Rising to save the series. And they definitely need to give Rand a big moment!
The writing in HotD is significantly better than Wheel of Time. Visually they're comparable.
A two year gap between seasons on an eight season show? Fourteen years real world for a 2-3 year book story? Ridiculous from Amazon Prime / Sony. Never mind how unlikely you are to keep an audience, what's the chance of keeping a cast - or a cast that looks right for the story?
Welp, it was a fun run guys...we'll try again in 20 years, maybe they'll try and actually do the series justice next time...RIP
This show has a few problems, mainly bad season finalies, straying too far from the source, and time between seasons. The last episode should never be the weakest and, unfortunately, its happrned twice now. It leaves a bad taste for fans and makes it hard to recommend to others. Now with the source materail, i get it. They only have so many episodes to get this story on screen, but there is no reason to change fundamental rules of the lore. They take far too many liberties and sprinkle in some fan service here and there in an effort to appease us. Finally the ridiculous wait between seasons. I havent seen why. Yes the cgi looks better this go around, but its not to the point to were it should take this long. Then when you actually get to see the show it moves at a break neck speed, nothing has time to breath. All that to say i do still watch it, i adore WoT and the actors make it worth wild. Just hiping they get these issues under control so this story can live on screen.
Keep checking these videos hoping to hear that Rafe got replaced. Oh well, maybe next week...
5:38 To get to the actual news.
Let's cut to the chase. I am a diehard Wheel fan, but the show has been completely underwhelming so far.
The books are so grand, they are massive in description and scale and the show just hasn't captured it.
I can live with the changes to the storyline ( though I spend way too much time explaining almost every scene to my non-wheel friends and family watching) the visual effects are amateurish, the scale of the armies and battles are tiny. There are supposed to be over a hundred heroes of the horn and maybe only twenty showed up on screen. The Battle of Falme was laughable compared to the book. There were supposed to be over two hundred ships with the invading Seanchan military at Falme. I counted about 50. Don't get me started on what they did to Loial!
As a fan base we need to push for a better show that captures how we know the show should be!
Quit giving the producers and network a free pass!
Though I completely agree on the Rings of Power! That one is just plain bad.
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amazon studios must be a giant money laundering business, what did they even spend 462 million on
Very excited about S3. Any idea why they are not marketing the show. At this rate the actors will be very old by the time they film the 6th season.
Also we have a new major name for Elaida in the same.moment rosamund left Prague
Let's be patient and Rewatch!!!
I hope they'll greenlight S4 when they see the finished S3. Or when test audiences get at it. That's still a ways off so I guess we'll wait either way.
As long as you disconnect the show from the books, it's a great series. My son just convinced his father-in-law to watch it. So new viewers to the whole series just found! I'll watch it. But right now I am more interested in knitting while listening to audio books rather than watching anything on tv right now.
Amazon has put themselves in a catch 22, a percentage of the book fans don't like the show because it is not a "faithful" recreation of the books. The show is interesting enough in its own right that it has attracted viewers that never read the books, but those viewers aren't invested enough to reliably wait two years for the next season.
Jon. I am a dire hard WoT book fan and I enjoy the WoT show. I also did not enjoy Season 1 of RoP. That said, I think you are comparing apples to oranges. After Season 2 of RoP is complete, you should compare the numbers you used in this video for WoT Season 2 with RoP Season 2.
For me i would wait if we see writer rooms or anything by end of the year, because potentially amazon waits to see ROP results to confirm their bet on bit fantasy shows.
I do not think they will cancel it, at least i hope 🤞🤞
Watching House of the Dragon makes me desperately wish MAX was making WOT as well.
My problem with sony/Amazon originals is that they have obviously had some consult calculate them the formula of "a perfect show" regarding episode numbers, production schedules and everything, and now they just seem to copy paste it to every single show instead of figuring out what the story in question actually needs in order to make the most of it.
They just try to make "the next Game of thrones". The problem with that is, the big reason game of thrones became popular in the first place was the fact it didnt try to be "the next" anything but instead was doing its own thing.🙄
As someone who is a huge fan of all of these original source materials (Tolkien, WOT, G.R.R. Martin books), I'd say House of the dragon is my no1 favourite (both as a show and as an adaptation). WOT comes second and Rings of Power I dont even want to put on a list because they made it just another generic fantasy show that has next to nothing to do with Tolkiens writings or LotR lore. 🙈
Ironically, Amazon did better with other properties besides fantasy. Their shows with the most views are either action thrillers / spy book adaptations (Reacher, Jack Ryan), a comic book adaptation (The Boys) and a video game adaptation (Fallout).
I don’t suppose you know if they will be bringing out season 2 dvd
Ughhhh! This is so heartbreaking! But ya know I don’t care, I’m gonna promote the shit out of this show
I deleted Twitter, and I won't go back. So I've been advocating for it on Threads and real life.
It doesn't really matter what I think, but here goes anyway. I watched Rings of Power I won't waste my time watching it again, end of story. I do watch House of the Dragon but season 2 has me often wondering why. Many content creators and other followers of the general GoT stuff defend it by saying people just don't have the attention span to watch dialogue and only want to see action. I think that could be true for some but mostly it's just bad dialogue, it's boring and even though I've read the book it seems to do little to move the story forward. It's also has a ridiculous amount of gratuitous nudity and strong unnecessary sexual themes that are distracting. So I am less and less interested each week and don't wonder why there are only 8 episodes this season.
I have heard that season 4 of Wheel of Time is already a go although I cannot say where I got that information. Nevertheless there absolutely has to be more marketing or no one will know it exists. Fandom generated marketing has reached its capacity, I don't see how we could do more.
I really really hope that S4 is a go. I really do. Drop me an email!
Truth of the matter is, Sony/Amazon had gold in their hands with Wheel of Time and they completely and utterly bungled it. Whatever happens, I hope Rosamund Pike will narrate all WOT books regardless, because I think she is doing an amazing job on those.
thanks rafe judkins...
I really do fed up with great shows that take so long to release new seasons and cut down to only 8 episodes?? I was watching supernatural, the Connors and they both had 22 episodes each season..
I loved Stranger things but they put seasons off so much the kids grew up?
I understand when they made the harry potter Movies bc the author was still writing books..but a lot of these shows have books already written ..wheel of time, Lord of rings? Etc..
I am ready to go back to regular TV. Where the hiatious between seasons is way shorter...I'll save up all the fantasy shows and watch straight through....
P.s. I want more shows per season..if you agree let me know..🤗
WOT is dead at Amazon. The writing is on the wall here. I'm a huge fan of the books, but this adaptation has been disappointing in a myriad of ways. We probably won't see another attempt to adapt this material until AI reaches a point where you can just feed it books and it will produce multi-hour live action material. Nobody is going to finance the money necessary to adapt WOT in a traditional manner after this attempt.
God help us if society gets to a point where AI is producing all of our entertainment, since it can't actually "create" anything by itself. 🤦🏻♀️🙄 It still needs Humans to do that for it... while it simply takes our words & concepts & jumbles something out of THAT.
Not to mention, what will happen to regular folks if we let A.I. do literally everything for us?? We're not gonna be sitting around sipping martinis while robots & A.I. do all the work for us, like how everybody thinks it will go. The bottom line is: the wealthy don't want us to have what THEY do. Period. If they did, all these Billion dollar companies you see would be paying folks a liveable wage NOW. But they aren't.
And they would happily do away with their entire human work force, if they thought they could. So let's plz not even JOKE about that happening. We'd literally be celebrating our own doom. Reminds me of Westworld, when all those rich people from the Delos corp were sitting around patting themselves on the back for creating such life-like robots, etc.
Letting A.I. programs "create" all of the media that Humanity takes in, might not create huge problems for ourselves now... but our ancestors will sure hate us for it later, I know that much. We won't be seen as the visionaries we think we will.
I'm really looking forward to season 3 and I hope they do green light season 4 soon. I really hope it isn't cancelled.
I never watched Rings of Power... I didn't hear positive things about it.
I wasn't a fan of what I saw in GoT and didn't get far in the series... I have no interest in House of the Dragon.
2 years between seasons is too much. It might work for shows in the UK, because it seems a lot do that, but in North America, we're used to shorter breaks and people have short attention span...
I think the lack of marketing is the biggest killer though. I've seen NO marketing for WoT anywhere other than by fans. Every time I turn on the TV I see ads for House of the Dragon... I mean, I just watch the news randomly or the Amazing Race (the only things I watch on tv) and CTV will show HotD ads on about ever commercial break! They need to make people know the show exists or it won't gain viewership.
I hope they market season 3 better and people learn the show exists and it's the best, most successful season ever.
I’m sure that WoT season 1 had better viewership than season 2, just because nobody knew season 2 was even out. But loads of ppl knew about season 1.
They also didn't put in any effort to create additional, online content promoting it and/or that explained more of the world building. They made those wonderful animated shorts for season 1, and I assumed there would be some for season 2 but then... nothing. 😒 Who is making these awful decisions to ignore the show the way they are?!
The only hope for wheel of time now is a good AAA rpg game like the Witcher 3
That would literally never happen lol
@@WHlSKYtx
That's unfortunate because it's a perfect and novel material with aspects that are made to be in a game
Witcher is garbage, no comparison to WoT
@@thecaracarn6544- I agree! 😃🎮 I was skeptical about playing the TellTale Game of Thrones game years ago. I figured it'd be sh*t, but it was cheap & I enjoyed Tell Tale's games, so I thought why not? And I ended up absolutely loving it, and was sad that it didn't continue. Mostly cuz Tell Tale fell apart, but I digress. lol Point is: if somebody was to make an amazing Wheel of Time fantasy game, it would bring the show sooo much more popularity. Problem is, they would have needed to already have gotten started on creating the game years ago. Even if they started working on a WoT game tomorrow... it wouldn't be ready until like a season 5 or 6 of the TV show. (Depending on how much time there is between seasons) In other words... it's already too late for a game to save the show.
I really do hope season 3 will be the last. I wish the best for the actors and think they deserve to be in better productions than what this show can offer.
Wow, ST:TNG initial early budget was well below all mentioned here, but as part of a Franchise ran really really well.
I think the issue is Streaming Platforms still dont know how to do things, 8 episodes a season is a joke.
what show is that acronym for?
@@cazgreene3055 Star Trek: The Next Generation.
Hoping for the best but I fear S3 will be the last one. I can see S3 maybe improve on the S2 numbers without the strikes and better marketing etc. Still I don't see S3 having a massive increase in its viewership when it premiers. I don't really see that much new interest in the show. I have not seen many new reactors etc that started watching the show after season 2, because of word of mouth etc that S2 was better.
Also with 2+ years between seasons I am not sure I really want 8 seasons, Rand's actor would be around 40 and Min's 50. Maybe its better if we get a great S3 and then it ends.
If one of the first few episodes is a breakout success they might get the surge in viewership that they want as people talk it up and get coworkers and acquaintances watching for the rest of the season. I never once saw WoT on social media outside of WoT and WoT-adjacent fanspaces. By contrast I didn't even watch Rings of Power and it still managed to escape containment and show up in non-fantasy-genre mainstream social media. And I haven't watched House of the Dragon either, but it's all over mainstream media, being referenced on late-night comedy shows, etc, etc.
WoT season 3 could go viral. It could happen. But if it doesn't, I agree season 4 may not happen at all
From what we've heard, S3 ends on book 4, so it's not a real conclusion to the series. All the other Amazon shows I've watched had some kind of conclusion, except for the ones that lasted only one season (like Citadel, Paper Girls).
So Amazon's track record is to give warning to the showrunner that they're not going to be renewed and have a final season to wrap things up. Amazon seems to be trying to avoid Netflix's error of cancelling shows without conclusion (like 1899).
Man in the High Castle, Carnival Row, all received a final season. The first one had a change of showrunners for that final season (probably the original ones didn't take well to the cancelling). But they received that final season.
So I doubt Amazon cancels it in season 3. If the numbers are bad they tell the showrunner to wrap it up in a final season. If the showrunner refuses, they find another one to replace.
A Smart posted a picture of alot of the cast together
So the butchering of the Wheel of Time is coming to an end. Thanks for the great news!
Funny. Nothing I said in my videos said either of those things. I love the show, they haven't committed to S4 yet, and I prove that WoT is more value for money (and doing better) than RoP.
Doesn't sound too promising. But if it is not renewed I really really really wish someone will make WoT into a fab animated show. I believe an animated format fits the story and all of its visual effects much better.
Bug them!!
Always!
100%!
HBO have created a show that respects the source material and the author. Unfortunately Amazon has not with its tentpole fantasy shows. There is a certain kind of proof in the viewing figures. I love The Wheel of Time and always hope for it to succeed but I just can't and don't recommend the show to anyone.
That's not exactly true season 2 of hotd deviates a lot from the source material and even the author ranted about it on his blog the other day
Sorry, but it's just not true. HBO doesn't respect the author OR the source material. 😒 AT ALL.
I'm excited for season 3. I got my sister to watch it a few months ago and is annoyed that she has to wait so long for season 3
I think there is politics behind this. A lot of people want Rings of Power to make a strong comeback this season. These people are not just anybody after seeing what is happening to Disney people have started to have demands on entertainment in particular.
They treat Wheel of Time like the red-headed step-child...
So the fans have to role out an advertising strategy?🧐
You just can't beat HBO marketing
I see your point, but comparing Wheel of Time success and value, to RoP, which is a really really bad value proposition at this point, doesn't necessarily mean that WoT is a GOOD investment, just that its better value than something that currently looks to be a TERRIBLE value.
I thought season 2 was better than season 1, and if season 3 again ups the ante, I hope it can gain better traction. I hope people who may have already formed their opinion after season 1 would give it another chance.
@@danielsharp6038 when fail fail season 1 for whatever reason in all categories... a show is dead
They have never invested the money to make WOT what it needs to be to complete with these established IPs. If they don’t increase their budget the show will stall out from lack of viewers
Sad but not surprised. S1 was bad. S2 was better in comparison but it still wasn't a great show. That coupled with the lack of marketing and the lengthy production timelines, I just don't know if this show can survive. I will say Rings of Power is a hot mess and I fear that it's pulling WOT down with it.
Facts I'd much rather watch Wheel of Time than Rings of Power. 🤷🏻♀️😒 But we both know which one they'd cancel first.