I have a Rolex Oyster Datejust and a Seagull 1963. The only advantage of the Rolex is that people will pay crazy prices for the Rolex. Otherwise, the Seagull is pretty much just as accurate and reliable.
I have a Lilienthal-berlin Zeitgeist Automatik, which I purchased second hand from someone who got it as a gift, and is not a watch person. I paid a fraction of the cost, I will put the accuracy of that watch against anything anybody makes, it is impressively accurate.
The ST1901 movement is not as nicely finished, but it's only a tiny fraction of the price of a Swiss movement and it keeps the time accurately. And it's really nice to look at, too, as long as you're not looking at it under a microscope. I'm quite happy with my Seagull 1963. It gets a lot of wrist time. And I do own a bunch of Omegas and other Swiss made watches.
I have more watches than is rational from Chinese to Swiss and, as long as you buy from better brands, the Chinese pieces will go Toe to Toe, with Swiss pieces at 10x the price. Now, the Chinese do need to up their movement game and then it's not even close. A San Martin with a St2130 would beat any Swiss watch under 5k.
As a UA-cam that deals a lot with those Chinese watches (my channel was formerly known as My Chinese Watch Collection) I agree with every word you said. The hate, the QC issues, all of it. But there is just so much value in some of the watches coming from China these days, it's a shame to miss out on that market. And my Seagull 1963 is my favorite watch in my collection, Chinese or not. And I got it new for under $150.
My Affordable Watch Collection - True Words. Where I grew up in the '70's , the term 'Jap Crap' was ubiquitous. It referred to all the cheap Japanese imports - from toys to cars. Now 'Made in Japan ' carries some caché. Is China the new Jap Crap'? I think so...
Awesome knowing that your birthday is in June because mine is also (June 30). I have a Seagull watch as well, it's not the model you have though. I love your channel, it's very informative and I get to see a lot of watches with a different perspective. When it comes to watch conversations, I advise people to wear what you love and love what you wear!
Anthony Smith it’s not only in the watch world, either. The budget knife market has exploded in just the past couple of years with tons of high quality stuff coming out of China. It’s really pretty similar to, say, how people are starting to take notice of all the materials and features these Chinese brands can offer at the price and wondering why Seiko still acts as if sapphire is an luxury feature, for example.
I bought an Addiesdive Tuna homage. It has a Seiko Nh35a movement. The loom is outstanding. It gains about 5 seconds a day. Not too shabby and really well made watch
im temped to buy something like this www.wish.com/product/5d77884e08b8bc412ef5ed4e?hide_login_modal=true&from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=NL&_force_currency_code=EUR&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5d77884e08b8bc412ef5ed4e&ad_cc=NL&ad_lang=NL&ad_curr=EUR&ad_price=57.00&campaign_id=8704015860&retargeting=true&gclid=CjwKCAjw_-D3BRBIEiwAjVMy7Ipf17pCKTg1pVU2L-aq8IIKaXOMJ-9dFkz0nLXuwTxfEKsd3ft6-BoC2YcQAvD_BwE&share=web but it looks to good for the money important thing is i want the buttons to actually work.
60% of the components for the swiss watch industry are made in china. The same factory that produced that Chinese chrono watch most likely makes parts for your favorite swiss brand. But they don;t tell you that. They show you the picture of the old swiss watchmaker and most of you are happy :)
Swiss watches are better because they use Swiss engineered movements rather than Chinese knockoff movements. You are using the no true Scottsman fallacy. Here is what I mean. Lets say Tesla uses a steering column made in China. Does that make a China made EV equivalent to a Tesla? Of course not. By the way, China mftrs are not interested in making heirloom quality watches that last a lifetime, so if durability is important to you, buy Swiss or Japanese.
Nicely said Jory . I dont see many people complain about their Chinese made iPhones. Ignorant people . Thank you for the vids informative and good fun . Congratulations on the gains in viewers. :)
I worry when I see the Seagull 1963 recommended. Nothing wrong with the watch mind you but in a few years the cost of repair/servicing is going to be over twice what was paid for the watch. Be warned.
I've had a Seagull 1963 for over 6 months and it's great. My friend who's a watch guy, likes it after seeing it and trying it. It's not all about the cost as real watch nut like me knows. I wear the 1963 and then the next day wear the Day-Date. It's fine they're both top notch.
The Seagull ST1901 Movement is an absolute monster when it comes to quality. my 1963 runs with less than 3 sec/day on average. This was the pilot chronograph for the chinese military, and still people think the military would have giveen their pilots garbage watches...
@@vertugallery7099 The movement is still made by the same company Sea-Gull. However, my understanding is that the QC they are applying can vary greatly depending on who they are selling to. Anyway, I believe Blackout's point is that it is a good design.
@@vertugallery7099 Well, the Sea-Gull company (or its legal predecessor) bought the movement from Venus, including the machines which made it. As I understand it, the original 1963 movements were made in China (not Switzerland), with these machines.
I own the same Seagull 1963 watch. What a watch for $375.00! Yeah I realize the screws are painted blue and not cured, yeah the decoration is not what you would get in a GENUINE Swiss for WAY more money, but look at the movement! Column wheel! works as smooth as butter. And it keeps better time than most of my "Swiss" watches! I own Rolexes, Breitlings, Ulysse Nardin, etc. But this watch is just amazing for the price! Good job Time Teller sticking up for watches that are made well no matter WHERE they come from! If you love watches, you love watches. Not just name brands but watches that are designed and made well with thought behind them no matter where they come from.
If the screws not being heat blued bothers anyone ......remove em one at a time .. after replacing the one u just took out...n heat the screw up with a propane torch until near glowing then.pick it up with pliers n drop it in oil of any kind...you'll have naturally hardened n blued screws... And they will be done the ol fashioned way....lmao...I'm kidding ..don't ever take screws out of your movement...though u can ask your watch maker too do it when servicing the watch...peace
The 1963 is actually a swiss-made movement by Venus (Venus 175). They bought the rights and added two more jewels and that's about it. It's a Chinese case with a swiss movement.
I have Swiss, Japanese and Chinese watches. I just got a Chinese bronze watch that is outstanding. There are some good Chinese Microbrands ;). San Martin, Cronos, Heimdallr and others.
I'm currently trying to purchase my first Seagull 1963 but my research has shown that there are so many variations of it that I don't know what is real and what is not?? Anyone has any tips or links to provide to purchase an authentic Seagull I would be really appreciative
I love my Cadisen with Seiko movement inside. Looses just a few seconds a day and works perfectly fine. Craftsmanship is also on a high level, no flaws or badly placed indexes whatsoever
Mines a bit shitty . Gains 8 seconds a day, the chrono minutes hand is bent. And the lumed one has a communist hammer and sickle on the chrono seconds hand. A star is one thing but hammer and sickle is about 80 million dead too far. I won't wear it, its going back.
Two months ago I bought a Mido Multifort that fell apart the same day I received it. The entire internal mechanism was broken. Similar experiences have occurred to me with Tissot and Alpina.
I bought the Seagull 1963 a few weeks ago and payed 215€ for it on Amazon and i love it, Chinese watches have a bad rep yes but Seagull and Fossiel produce pretty good watches and i don't care what other ppl think about it, i love it :P
As a Chinese viewer of yours, I think you made a very fair comment on Chinese watches, people should know what they're getting into, do their research, judge watches based on the watch themselves, don't expect to get $20,000 quality out of a $200 Chinese watch or anywhere else in the world, also if you only have $20, Chinese watch is the only option you could even possibly buy a watch for $20, don't take it for granted. Sea-gull is a very honorable and wellpriced Chinese watch brand, good to know there's people appreciating it from overseas, good work as always
Jory I've heard a lot of people saying that the official Seagull 1963 has mineral glass and all the others are fake or Frankensteins. Do you know if that's true?
The (modern) history of the Seagull 1963s is pretty long and confusing. There are a lot of different models. There are 38mm cases and 42mm cases. There are also some differences with the bezel heights in some models. There are some with display case backs and some with solids. To the best of my knowledge, seagull does not officially make the 1963 reissues anymore (www.sea-gullmall.com/). Although some middlemen who sell other legit seagulls are still selling them. For example, I have even seen a new 2020 edition (www.seagullcanada.com/products/seagull-1963-hand-wind-mechanical-chronograph-38mm-watch-re-issued-edition-d304b-with-series-number-on-case-back-total-650pcs?_pos=1&_sid=76aa5f549&_ss=r). Long story short, get what you like.
TwentySixAnd - That Limited Edition version is VERY interesting. Lume'd hands. Textured ring around the outer dial. Different text above the 6. Different font. It looks beautiful. My understanding is that the 1963 design has been made by a substantial Chinese watchmaker under license (using the SeaGull ST1901 movement ). This is how they ended up on Aliexpress for under $100USD recently. To your knowledge, is this correct?
@@anthonysmith2982 to be completely honest it has been some time since I did a deep dive. If I was to tell you details I couldn't give them with certainty. All I can say for sure is that their are so many out their with so many small variants that nobody, short of a handful of people in the whole world, could tell you how 'authentic' it is. I would probably spend more than 100$ if it was me though. Seems a little too good!
TwentySixAnd - Yeah! That's what I thought! In fact it was $90! ...with a khaki nato & (a pretty crappy) leather strap & a 2nd stainless steel embossed and printed case back (although they emailed me after I'd paid to tell me the 2nd case back would not be included). I bought it out of...morbid curiosity perhaps ? I was fully expecting it to be a 'fake' of dubious quality - & I could always give it to one of my daughters... It arrived much quicker than Aliexpress orders usually do. I buy straps from Aliex. They have some genuinely good leather for around $20-$25 BTW! Anyway. I compared it to my "genuine" 1963 - well at least one I've owned from new for maybe 8 years. They looked identical to me and I decided to take it to my watchmaker. He laughed at the price and said 'as far as I can tell it's genuine!' So I don't know what to make of it. It's obviously not made by SeaGull but it is definitely a genuine ST1901 movement. So...I don't really care who made it! It's extremely well made. They were all over Aliexpress - all for around $110 - $120 and then I got an email telling me that I had 24hrs to buy it at $88, so I did. Immediately. I'm honestly not sure whether to pinch myself or wait for it to explode! Either way. It spent a week on my wrist, ran like a champ and went back into the watch box. I think I might give it to the first person in the family who compliments me on it! So make of that what you will. I'm still a little bewildered . Cheers and stay well. Anthony.
Just as the AliExpress sale was ending, I was deciding between a Seagull 1963 Reissue or a CIGA Design Z. I went with the CIGA Design Z watch. Gotta love that RM style skeleton watch for under 150 USD!
Jori, I enjoy all of your videos for several reasons - most of all because of your authenticity! In this particular video, as I'm sure you know, the 1963 Seagul movement is steeped in Swiss heritage! And the Swiss seem to know how to build a movement. Just sayennnnnnn.... Thanks for all your great work!
Firstly, congratulations on almost reaching the 100k mark! I've never owned a Seagull 1963, but it definitely opened me up a whole new genre of wristwatches. I subsequently did buy an Atelier Wen Odyssey Hao (which is absolutely gorgeous), and hopefully will be able to acquire a Ming 17.01 sometime in the future. For those of you that have been conflicted by stigmatized opinions, you may just be missing out on enjoying some really good timepieces.
The additional improvement to tighten regulation is called the swan neck and was introduced in some of the Seagull ST21 and other Seagull movements, that improved more precise regulation of the balance staff.
I must say, I own two Japanese watches an Orient Kamasu & The Seiko 5 Sport SNZH60K1. I just bought a chinese watch, The Jinshidun 8718 all Gold champagne dial Automatic 24 hr sun dial watch for under $100 and I absolutely love it. It keeps better time than my Seiko SNZH60. And I must say it's beautiful. Not only that, it's no longer available. So I have a rare watch.
Recently got a 1963 with the swan neck regulator. Out of the box, I am amazed how accurate this watch has kept time being fast only by 4 secs over 24 hours. Honestly had couple of Omegas that were 4 to 5 secs faster in a day. Seems like I got lucky or Seagull really does a good QC job.
I literally just bought the Seagull 1963 fifteen minutes before this video came out! I saw the title and got scared that T3 changed his mind on it, but I'm glad he still likes it!
I wasn't looking for validation, I was worried that his ended up having mechanical or quality control issues that caused it to not hold up. I can also value other people's opinions who have more experience than me without blindly following them.
Not that it matters where but, I’ve read that most of the G-shock watches are in fact made in Chinese and Thai factories but for premium lines like G-Shock MRG, MTG, there is a Yamagata factory in Japan.
I love the irony of people commenting on the "crapness" of Chinese-manufactured watches, whilst using their (probably) Chinese-manufactured phone/tablet/computer to do so. Whilst also ignoring the fact that premium, "serious" watch manufacturers like Rolex or Tudor have not been without their own quality control issues. Hell, even my Seamaster 300 isn't that consistent at time keeping, but I know that's a symptom of owning a mechanical watch. Sure, ignorance and perception plays a huge part in some people's comments, but...like, reading and some basic research is a pretty good cure for this, and we're all capable of that, right? Love the video Jory. Thanks.
Not true that Swiss watches have better quality control. Years ago, like more than 10 years ago, I bought an Omega Seamaster. Happy with the purchase, I wore it the next day to work. Colleagues at work asked to see the watch and one spotted that the second hand in the watch has a dent. I thought it was maybe a reflection of light to make it looked like a dent. But on closer inspection, it really was a dent. I brought the watch back to the authorized retailer of Omega watches and after 3 days they returned the watch back to me with a new 'seconds' needle. I thought how did this pass quality check?
There's not much coverage of Vintage Chinese mechanicals Jorie, and there's a fuck ton of deals there. Tons of great watches from the olden Chinese brands with history like Seagull, Beijing and Shanghai.
I have a Guanqin homage of a Longine and it's ticking no problem, keeping time accurately and it was like U$48. There's this other from Pagani Design that has a VK67 movement and it's damn good. It was $51. Both Chinese, and both way better than more expensive counterparts.
Nice video & info. I appreciate your honesty & straight-forwardness. If people don't like what you shared in this episode, then they can swing on the sack, bro! Continued success, my friend!!
Indeed. My late 90s Casio MTD-1003 says Japan Mov't. My '70s Seiko SQ 4004 says Japan on the dial ... Japanese watches. But if it says Made in China on the back, as my modern Casios do, it's a Chinese watch.
I'm on my 3rd Chinese watch. The Pagani dropped the ball in the lume department. I have no complaints re: the Sharkey (Heimdallr), and now the Gustav Becker (Sea-Gull). Search the forums, do you research, and buy with confidence.
Seiko is assembled in other countries though right? On most of their watches it says Japan movement. They simply say made in Japan unless it’s the higher end ones. There are a couple I was/am interested in that even list, Malaysian movement. Citizen is typically less made in Japan.
The quality of products out of China vary widely. There are some world-class manufacturers there. Experts like you can help us a lot by sorting out the wheat from the chaff
I bought the cheapest Chinese watch I could find for about $1.20 (including shipping). It's an extremely basic looking watch and the strap as you can imagine is horrible. But you know what, the damn thing keeps the time. It's an accurate quartz movement inside and the second hand is properly aligned with the second markers. Yes, there's an audible tick with each passing second, but it's no louder than any of the more expensive quartz watches on the market and I love the simplicity and non existent branding on the dial. It's also extremely light from being so cheap, so easy to forget that it's even on the wrist. For $1.20 lol
You really got me into vintage seiko and other brands I never considered. I just bought a Brew watch, and I hope to buy an Autodromo before the end of the year.
The Swiss watch industry has been sourcing parts from Hong Kong and mainland China for 60 years. Any 'Swiss Made' watch under $1000 is pretty much entirely Chinese. It's all 100% legal under Swiss law.
Up to the 1970s, Japanese products were considered cheap and nasty. Most were just knock-offs of Western products. I can still remember the Datsun 120Y (old name of Nissan), its body panels were so thin, you could dent it by just pushing it with your finger! And it was so light, it drove like it was floating on the road. However, the Japanese went on a quality drive when they realised quality mattered. Nowadays, most people equate Japanese products as of high quality and reliable (especially for Japanese cars). In fact, I still remember the Japanese bashing that was prevalent in the USA during the 1980s, similar to the Chinese bashing now. China products are at the same stage Japanese products were during the 1970s. They have started to improve their products and still able to sell it cheaper than many Western counterparts. Give them another decade or so, and they will be able to produce high quality products which are reliable and probably still cheaper than their counterparts. In fact, you only have to look at mobile phones and see that the majority are now designed and built in China. Huawei being a prime example. Oh, and Apple products are all made in China.
I just read a artical about Swiss people just end Chronometer comptition they used to hold every year just beacuse Seiko almost winning all the top ten( the first three are swiss made quartz to save some face which means Sekio are the true winner. The Swiss cannot handle this and just stop the comptition ever since. So, swiss made had fallen long time ago.
Time teller does the narrative of describing the qualities that these Chinese watches offers, its good to try and experience Chinese timepieces, tried plenty of those, and they still work, their quality is good, and they are repairable as well, when you know to repair them. Replica watches are not fake, since they have permits to make the versions of the originals. As for parnis and some of the "Chinese brands" they are genuine Chinese brands, that makes them special, same thing with qualities when you bought swiss made or Japanese timepieces. Learn to appreciate versions of creativity in many parts of the world, sharing their best products produced. They are not cheap, they are for the "ables" regardless of their economic strata's they are at. Ciao, enjoy quality and quantity in many parts of the world. :)
ive been eyeing sea gull dual time gmt..but theres no available review...san martin is pretty good.they get good reviews..i just wish they have a better logo
Great summary, well done for not being prejudice....I've bought a few good watches like that by buying without looking at where they are from. Some chineese parts in them like Thomas Earnshaw. Thanks for this video cliff
Dude , all your videos are great & I really appreciate. All you've said have been well said & I totally agree with you. Nobody will want to grab your hand while you are walking on the street & see what watch you are wearing. We can only wear whatever pleases us & not others. People out there need to make some good research on Chinese Seagull watches history before making bad critics as honestly aside from owning some Swiss watches, I do also own some very & very good Chinese watches. Needless to say, most of the times, I find myself wearing many of my Chinese watches on a day to day basis & this has been going on for nearly 5 years now. They are damn good watches. After 5 years, till date, all my best Chinese watches are still working fine without any problem. Whatever my hard earned money can buy me is what pleases me & not what others think.
I love your channel it’s very helpful in my constant vigil for another watch on my wrist. I do have a suggestion. You have a really nice full beard I wish I could have one as full. But why don’t you keep it in trim it would look so much better. When someone first meets you a neat trimmed beard is their first impression of how you feel about yourself. You wouldn’t go out in public with an inside out shirt it’s the same with an untrimmed beard.
I'm wanting a 1963, but there are soooo many listings (LIW, Alibaba, uniquewatches, etc) and variations (different subdial hands, swan neck regulator, 19vs21jewels). I'm so confused! Which dealers and models are legit?
I totally agree. I have mostly Swiss watches but my favorites are my skx007 and a Vostok. I was in the military stationed 6 a few miles from a Soviet union country but so what? My Vostok is super interesting and I am going tomorrow a seagull. Thanks for the great writeup...
It's quite a coincidence that today I'm wearing my Seagull 1963 chrono!! 😂 It's the 38mm, acrylic dome version. Just like the original from the 60's. This watch has such a rich history... It may be chinese, but has a lot of pedigree.
Christian Rodriguez - I chose the acrylic domed crystal over sapphire even though the cost was the same - for that exact reason; its heritage and to ensure that my watch was as close to the original issue as possible. I'm a bit of a fan of acrylic crystals.
I bought the Seagull 1963 and it confirmed everything I thought I knew about Chinese quality control. It arrived broken. What DID surprise me was the relatively fast customer service, and the ease of the return process. Once this issue was sorted out, I've become a very pleased owner of a watch which is FAR more accurate than I expected, reliable, and looks great. Very pleased with the purchase, but it's not altered my opinion of Chinese quality control * or lack of it.
I have a boutique watch I bought off eBay for $100. There are maybe a few dozen in circulation. It was an amazing value. It has a sapphire crystal, stainless steel case with a PVC coating, screw down case and crown, and a military style dial. The Seiko NH38 movement is accurate to about 6 seconds per day.
Have you seen Black by Blue Brave watches? I'm curious if they're any good. It's a Singapore brand, and they're Chinese made but Japanese imported Movement, they're really pretty but I'm curious if they're any good. They've been getting a lot of attention on Instagram, and they also sell on Amazon which makes me wonder if they're OEM. I haven't seen any OEM sellers of them so maybe they're one off design for the brand, tho will they be decent?
I have an Amazfit GTR by Zepp Health in Hegel, China. It is a smartwatch with a Li ion battery which stays charged for as long as 20 days. I really like the way it works, looks, and stands up to abuse. I like it much better than my over-complicated Apple Watch Ultra.
I have a request if you would. Can you review Oupinke watches? They are swiss watched and its manufactured in china .I got a feeling that this is one of those good ones. I just picked a 3168 Automatic and It makes some of my rolexes feel cheap. I had it for two years and keeps time. No problems with it. There isnt enough information about this brand. Please & thank you
Love your channel Jory. Keep up the great work. Just bought a man cave strap for my seiko Sun019 kinetic. Also could you please do a review on the yema navigraf. Yes it's French not Swiss
I have a Rolex Oyster Datejust and a Seagull 1963. The only advantage of the Rolex is that people will pay crazy prices for the Rolex. Otherwise, the Seagull is pretty much just as accurate and reliable.
I have a Lilienthal-berlin Zeitgeist Automatik, which I purchased second hand from someone who got it as a gift, and is not a watch person. I paid a fraction of the cost, I will put the accuracy of that watch against anything anybody makes, it is impressively accurate.
The ST1901 movement is not as nicely finished, but it's only a tiny fraction of the price of a Swiss movement and it keeps the time accurately. And it's really nice to look at, too, as long as you're not looking at it under a microscope. I'm quite happy with my Seagull 1963. It gets a lot of wrist time. And I do own a bunch of Omegas and other Swiss made watches.
I have more watches than is rational from Chinese to Swiss and, as long as you buy from better brands, the Chinese pieces will go Toe to Toe, with Swiss pieces at 10x the price. Now, the Chinese do need to up their movement game and then it's not even close. A San Martin with a St2130 would beat any Swiss watch under 5k.
As a UA-cam that deals a lot with those Chinese watches (my channel was formerly known as My Chinese Watch Collection) I agree with every word you said. The hate, the QC issues, all of it. But there is just so much value in some of the watches coming from China these days, it's a shame to miss out on that market.
And my Seagull 1963 is my favorite watch in my collection, Chinese or not. And I got it new for under $150.
My Affordable Watch Collection 100%!
A tongji automatic that sells for $12 shipped is not a bad watch for the money, because what did you expect for $12?
My Affordable Watch Collection - True Words. Where I grew up in the '70's , the term 'Jap Crap' was ubiquitous. It referred to all the cheap Japanese imports - from toys to cars. Now 'Made in Japan ' carries some caché.
Is China the new Jap Crap'?
I think so...
Awesome knowing that your birthday is in June because mine is also (June 30). I have a Seagull watch as well, it's not the model you have though. I love your channel, it's very informative and I get to see a lot of watches with a different perspective. When it comes to watch conversations, I advise people to wear what you love and love what you wear!
Anthony Smith it’s not only in the watch world, either. The budget knife market has exploded in just the past couple of years with tons of high quality stuff coming out of China. It’s really pretty similar to, say, how people are starting to take notice of all the materials and features these Chinese brands can offer at the price and wondering why Seiko still acts as if sapphire is an luxury feature, for example.
I bought an Addiesdive Tuna homage. It has a Seiko Nh35a movement. The loom is outstanding. It gains about 5 seconds a day. Not too shabby and really well made watch
I'm happy and satisfied with my $60 Guanqin dress watch. The longer I have it, the more I'm convinced I didn't waste my money.
John Christian De Guzman where did you buy it? Thanks
Online
@@cuestion-de-tiempo Gearbest.com has hundreds of this any many other brands of Chinese watches. They start a $2.00 a watch and go up.
im temped to buy something like this www.wish.com/product/5d77884e08b8bc412ef5ed4e?hide_login_modal=true&from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=NL&_force_currency_code=EUR&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5d77884e08b8bc412ef5ed4e&ad_cc=NL&ad_lang=NL&ad_curr=EUR&ad_price=57.00&campaign_id=8704015860&retargeting=true&gclid=CjwKCAjw_-D3BRBIEiwAjVMy7Ipf17pCKTg1pVU2L-aq8IIKaXOMJ-9dFkz0nLXuwTxfEKsd3ft6-BoC2YcQAvD_BwE&share=web but it looks to good for the money important thing is i want the buttons to actually work.
@@cliffordbunin3278 Stay away from wish!
*Sees the video.*
*Sees the date.*
*Hears reasonable arguments.*
I'm so confused right now.
60% of the components for the swiss watch industry are made in china. The same factory that produced that Chinese chrono watch most likely makes parts for your favorite swiss brand. But they don;t tell you that. They show you the picture of the old swiss watchmaker and most of you are happy :)
Swiss watches are better because they use Swiss engineered movements rather than Chinese knockoff movements. You are using the no true Scottsman fallacy. Here is what I mean. Lets say Tesla uses a steering column made in China. Does that make a China made EV equivalent to a Tesla? Of course not.
By the way, China mftrs are not interested in making heirloom quality watches that last a lifetime, so if durability is important to you, buy Swiss or Japanese.
@@PETERJOHN101the expensive sea-gull watches that cost 500€+ have the same quality as the Japanese counterparts from seiko or citizen
Loving my Sea-Gull watches, one genuine, one Parnis, and a Timex diver with a power reserve ..
Timex is an american company(made in China).
I got a seiko tuna for my 14th birthday last November and my dad gave me a Submariner when I was 10 and had no watch knowledge
@@elduderino1329 made in the philippines
Nicely said Jory . I dont see many people complain about their Chinese made iPhones. Ignorant people . Thank you for the vids informative and good fun . Congratulations on the gains in viewers. :)
Big difference between making a phone that will need changing within a few years and a mechanical watch built to last a hundred years.
Agree to some extent. But they are backed up by IPhone quality and warranty. 10$ chinese quartz watch isn't.
So true. Most of the stuff they own is also made in China.
I worry when I see the Seagull 1963 recommended. Nothing wrong with the watch mind you but in a few years the cost of repair/servicing is going to be over twice what was paid for the watch. Be warned.
@Garnet Newton-Wade I keep seeing Warnings about that movement . I guess it's luck of the draw with that .
I've had a Seagull 1963 for over 6 months and it's great. My friend who's a watch guy, likes it after seeing it and trying it. It's not all about the cost as real watch nut like me knows. I wear the 1963 and then the next day wear the Day-Date. It's fine they're both top notch.
The Seagull ST1901 Movement is an absolute monster when it comes to quality. my 1963 runs with less than 3 sec/day on average. This was the pilot chronograph for the chinese military, and still people think the military would have giveen their pilots garbage watches...
It is not the same watch or the same movement. It is a replica of the watch that was used by the Chinese military. Learn.
@@vertugallery7099 The movement is still made by the same company Sea-Gull. However, my understanding is that the QC they are applying can vary greatly depending on who they are selling to. Anyway, I believe Blackout's point is that it is a good design.
@@luke-alex My friend, the movement in the original of this watch was a Swiss Venus movement, used by Breitling etc.
@@vertugallery7099 Well, the Sea-Gull company (or its legal predecessor) bought the movement from Venus, including the machines which made it. As I understand it, the original 1963 movements were made in China (not Switzerland), with these machines.
@@luke-alex The modern movement is not the same quality; it is a totally different movement. Go do some more homework.
I own the same Seagull 1963 watch. What a watch for $375.00! Yeah I realize the screws are painted blue and not cured, yeah the decoration is not what you would get in a GENUINE Swiss for WAY more money, but look at the movement! Column wheel! works as smooth as butter. And it keeps better time than most of my "Swiss" watches! I own Rolexes, Breitlings, Ulysse Nardin, etc. But this watch is just amazing for the price! Good job Time Teller sticking up for watches that are made well no matter WHERE they come from! If you love watches, you love watches. Not just name brands but watches that are designed and made well with thought behind them no matter where they come from.
If the screws not being heat blued bothers anyone ......remove em one at a time .. after replacing the one u just took out...n heat the screw up with a propane torch until near glowing then.pick it up with pliers n drop it in oil of any kind...you'll have naturally hardened n blued screws... And they will be done the ol fashioned way....lmao...I'm kidding ..don't ever take screws out of your movement...though u can ask your watch maker too do it when servicing the watch...peace
When you have a original sea-gull, then they are cured.
But they cost nearly 2x as much.
The 1963 is actually a swiss-made movement by Venus (Venus 175). They bought the rights and added two more jewels and that's about it. It's a Chinese case with a swiss movement.
I think you mean Swiss designed. The movement is made in China.
Ordered my Seagull 1963 two days ago from Aliexpress for $165. It is the 38mm sapphire glass model. Sorry folks, that sale ended at midnight!
You got taste👍
I have Swiss, Japanese and Chinese watches. I just got a Chinese bronze watch that is outstanding. There are some good Chinese Microbrands ;). San Martin, Cronos, Heimdallr and others.
Just ordered a Seagull 1963 for 90 bucks on Amazon. Been wanting a Seagull for years.
I'm currently trying to purchase my first Seagull 1963 but my research has shown that there are so many variations of it that I don't know what is real and what is not?? Anyone has any tips or links to provide to purchase an authentic Seagull I would be really appreciative
I love my Cadisen with Seiko movement inside. Looses just a few seconds a day and works perfectly fine. Craftsmanship is also on a high level, no flaws or badly placed indexes whatsoever
A "few" seconds a day is 24 min. a year. My old Eterna Matic lost 2 min. a year.🕧
@@bafattvahetere really tho?
Impressed with my Seagull 1963..decent quality, pretty accurate & ridiculously cheap. 👍🏻👍🏻
I got a Orient Maestro greenish blue dial for really cheap and it's the best automatic watch that I wear daily
The accuracy of this was a huge surprise to me. Have the Sugess version under $200
Mines a bit shitty . Gains 8 seconds a day, the chrono minutes hand is bent.
And the lumed one has a communist hammer and sickle on the chrono seconds hand.
A star is one thing but hammer and sickle is about 80 million dead too far.
I won't wear it, its going back.
I’ve been eyeing the sea-gull 1963 for a while! Thanks for the vid!
Two months ago I bought a Mido Multifort that fell apart the same day I received it. The entire internal mechanism was broken. Similar experiences have occurred to me with Tissot and Alpina.
If a watch is bad or broken, it's bad or broken regardless of country. G-Shocks are made in China and are tougher than 99% of other watches.
I bought the Seagull 1963 a few weeks ago and payed 215€ for it on Amazon and i love it, Chinese watches have a bad rep yes but Seagull and Fossiel produce pretty good watches and i don't care what other ppl think about it, i love it :P
It wasnt probably a seagull if you bought it on amazon.
As a Chinese viewer of yours, I think you made a very fair comment on Chinese watches, people should know what they're getting into, do their research, judge watches based on the watch themselves, don't expect to get $20,000 quality out of a $200 Chinese watch or anywhere else in the world, also if you only have $20, Chinese watch is the only option you could even possibly buy a watch for $20, don't take it for granted. Sea-gull is a very honorable and wellpriced Chinese watch brand, good to know there's people appreciating it from overseas, good work as always
There's also HMT watches from India that sell in that same sub-20 USD price bracket, which I would definitely prefer over an equivalent Chinese watch.
China deserves more credit, Starking changed my opinion about them. They do have some decent products from their region.
Do you support Chinese concentration camps too?
I'm watching this with a Seagull 1963 on my wrist. Super happy with it.
Jory I've heard a lot of people saying that the official Seagull 1963 has mineral glass and all the others are fake or Frankensteins. Do you know if that's true?
The (modern) history of the Seagull 1963s is pretty long and confusing. There are a lot of different models. There are 38mm cases and 42mm cases. There are also some differences with the bezel heights in some models. There are some with display case backs and some with solids. To the best of my knowledge, seagull does not officially make the 1963 reissues anymore (www.sea-gullmall.com/). Although some middlemen who sell other legit seagulls are still selling them. For example, I have even seen a new 2020 edition (www.seagullcanada.com/products/seagull-1963-hand-wind-mechanical-chronograph-38mm-watch-re-issued-edition-d304b-with-series-number-on-case-back-total-650pcs?_pos=1&_sid=76aa5f549&_ss=r). Long story short, get what you like.
TwentySixAnd - That Limited Edition version is VERY interesting.
Lume'd hands. Textured ring around the outer dial. Different text above the 6. Different font. It looks beautiful.
My understanding is that the 1963 design has been made by a substantial Chinese watchmaker under license (using the SeaGull ST1901 movement ).
This is how they ended up on Aliexpress for under $100USD recently.
To your knowledge, is this correct?
@@anthonysmith2982 to be completely honest it has been some time since I did a deep dive. If I was to tell you details I couldn't give them with certainty. All I can say for sure is that their are so many out their with so many small variants that nobody, short of a handful of people in the whole world, could tell you how 'authentic' it is. I would probably spend more than 100$ if it was me though. Seems a little too good!
TwentySixAnd - Yeah! That's what I thought! In fact it was $90! ...with a khaki nato & (a pretty crappy) leather strap & a 2nd stainless steel embossed and printed case back (although they emailed me after I'd paid to tell me the 2nd case back would not be included).
I bought it out of...morbid curiosity perhaps ? I was fully expecting it to be a 'fake' of dubious quality - & I could always give it to one of my daughters...
It arrived much quicker than Aliexpress orders usually do. I buy straps from Aliex. They have some genuinely good leather for around $20-$25 BTW!
Anyway. I compared it to my "genuine" 1963 - well at least one I've owned from new for maybe 8 years. They looked identical to me and I decided to take it to my watchmaker. He laughed at the price and said 'as far as I can tell it's genuine!'
So I don't know what to make of it.
It's obviously not made by SeaGull but it is definitely a genuine ST1901 movement. So...I don't really care who made it! It's extremely well made. They were all over Aliexpress - all for around $110 - $120 and then I got an email telling me that I had 24hrs to buy it at $88, so I did. Immediately.
I'm honestly not sure whether to pinch myself or wait for it to explode!
Either way. It spent a week on my wrist, ran like a champ and went back into the watch box. I think I might give it to the first person in the family who compliments me on it! So make of that what you will. I'm still a little bewildered .
Cheers and stay well.
Anthony.
I have Cadisen, also a Chinese Watch but has Seiko NH36a movement. Runs perfectly fine. ❤️
Very nice video! And I’m glad to see something great from my home town 天津. I bought one myself recently, can’t wait till I go back and pick that up.
Just as the AliExpress sale was ending, I was deciding between a Seagull 1963 Reissue or a CIGA Design Z. I went with the CIGA Design Z watch. Gotta love that RM style skeleton watch for under 150 USD!
Honestly I always visually liked this chrono dial!
Jori, I enjoy all of your videos for several reasons - most of all because of your authenticity!
In this particular video, as I'm sure you know, the 1963 Seagul movement is steeped in Swiss heritage! And the Swiss seem to know how to build a movement. Just sayennnnnnn....
Thanks for all your great work!
Firstly, congratulations on almost reaching the 100k mark!
I've never owned a Seagull 1963, but it definitely opened me up a whole new genre of wristwatches. I subsequently did buy an Atelier Wen Odyssey Hao (which is absolutely gorgeous), and hopefully will be able to acquire a Ming 17.01 sometime in the future. For those of you that have been conflicted by stigmatized opinions, you may just be missing out on enjoying some really good timepieces.
You can get a nice Seagull 1963 with a swanneck regulator for $200. They are very nice, reliable and accurate.
Such a nice video as always. This year I bought three chinese watches, two Pagani Design and one Parnis, and I really enjoy them!!!
The additional improvement to tighten regulation is called the swan neck and was introduced in some of the Seagull ST21 and other Seagull movements, that improved more precise regulation of the balance staff.
If I wanted to buy your first Shanghai watch, where to start? Which chronograph/aviator/racing should I choose first?
I must say, I own two Japanese watches an Orient Kamasu & The Seiko 5 Sport SNZH60K1.
I just bought a chinese watch, The Jinshidun 8718 all Gold champagne dial Automatic 24 hr sun dial watch for under $100 and I absolutely love it.
It keeps better time than my Seiko SNZH60. And I must say it's beautiful. Not only that, it's no longer available. So I have a rare watch.
Jory, well said. Do your research and choose wisely.
What watch band are you wearing here? I’ve just bought this watch and I’d like to try this band
Very nice video, can you tell roughly seagull 1963 reserve time? My lasts 6h if not on the hand.is that normal?
Recently got a 1963 with the swan neck regulator. Out of the box, I am amazed how accurate this watch has kept time being fast only by 4 secs over 24 hours. Honestly had couple of Omegas that were 4 to 5 secs faster in a day. Seems like I got lucky or Seagull really does a good QC job.
I literally just bought the Seagull 1963 fifteen minutes before this video came out! I saw the title and got scared that T3 changed his mind on it, but I'm glad he still likes it!
You don't need validation from anyone to like anything
lmao you got scared? insecure much?
Did you go with the sapphire crystal variant?
I wasn't looking for validation, I was worried that his ended up having mechanical or quality control issues that caused it to not hold up. I can also value other people's opinions who have more experience than me without blindly following them.
@@discingaround yeah I decided to get the sapphire variant because I tend to accidentally slam my watches on door ways 😅
Not that it matters where but, I’ve read that most of the G-shock watches are in fact made in Chinese and Thai factories but for premium lines like G-Shock MRG, MTG, there is a Yamagata factory in Japan.
MY GOD my seagull 1963 is 12 months old today and as i watch this it is on my wrist and going perfectly 👍♥️👍
Watch & Unwind Happy birthday to your watch!
Quick question, where did you get that strap?
I love the irony of people commenting on the "crapness" of Chinese-manufactured watches, whilst using their (probably) Chinese-manufactured phone/tablet/computer to do so. Whilst also ignoring the fact that premium, "serious" watch manufacturers like Rolex or Tudor have not been without their own quality control issues. Hell, even my Seamaster 300 isn't that consistent at time keeping, but I know that's a symptom of owning a mechanical watch. Sure, ignorance and perception plays a huge part in some people's comments, but...like, reading and some basic research is a pretty good cure for this, and we're all capable of that, right?
Love the video Jory. Thanks.
Not true that Swiss watches have better quality control. Years ago, like more than 10 years ago, I bought an Omega Seamaster. Happy with the purchase, I wore it the next day to work. Colleagues at work asked to see the watch and one spotted that the second hand in the watch has a dent. I thought it was maybe a reflection of light to make it looked like a dent. But on closer inspection, it really was a dent. I brought the watch back to the authorized retailer of Omega watches and after 3 days they returned the watch back to me with a new 'seconds' needle. I thought how did this pass quality check?
There's not much coverage of Vintage Chinese mechanicals Jorie, and there's a fuck ton of deals there.
Tons of great watches from the olden Chinese brands with history like Seagull, Beijing and Shanghai.
I have a Guanqin homage of a Longine and it's ticking no problem, keeping time accurately and it was like U$48. There's this other from Pagani Design that has a VK67 movement and it's damn good. It was $51. Both Chinese, and both way better than more expensive counterparts.
Nice video & info. I appreciate your honesty & straight-forwardness. If people don't like what you shared in this episode, then they can swing on the sack, bro! Continued success, my friend!!
Another great vid Jory. Currently waiting for my Kickstarter Traska summiteer to arrive - conceived in the USA, made in....China.
Most seikos and casios are made In China just for clarification, only the high end pieces and older models are japan made
Indeed. My late 90s Casio MTD-1003 says Japan Mov't. My '70s Seiko SQ 4004 says Japan on the dial ... Japanese watches. But if it says Made in China on the back, as my modern Casios do, it's a Chinese watch.
My gshock is made in Thailand 🇹🇭 😅
I'm on my 3rd Chinese watch. The Pagani dropped the ball in the lume department. I have no complaints re: the Sharkey (Heimdallr), and now the Gustav Becker (Sea-Gull). Search the forums, do you research, and buy with confidence.
Seiko is assembled in other countries though right? On most of their watches it says Japan movement. They simply say made in Japan unless it’s the higher end ones. There are a couple I was/am interested in that even list, Malaysian movement. Citizen is typically less made in Japan.
The quality of products out of China vary widely. There are some world-class manufacturers there.
Experts like you can help us a lot by sorting out the wheat from the chaff
I bought the cheapest Chinese watch I could find for about $1.20 (including shipping). It's an extremely basic looking watch and the strap as you can imagine is horrible.
But you know what, the damn thing keeps the time. It's an accurate quartz movement inside and the second hand is properly aligned with the second markers. Yes, there's an audible tick with each passing second, but it's no louder than any of the more expensive quartz watches on the market and I love the simplicity and non existent branding on the dial. It's also extremely light from being so cheap, so easy to forget that it's even on the wrist.
For $1.20 lol
You really got me into vintage seiko and other brands I never considered. I just bought a Brew watch, and I hope to buy an Autodromo before the end of the year.
My Casio (GA-7108) is "Japan mvmt, cased in Thailand" so is it Japanese or Thai?
Please try"WISE" the high-end watch of Thai brand very high standard with good quality handmade.
The Swiss watch industry has been sourcing parts from Hong Kong and mainland China for 60 years. Any 'Swiss Made' watch under $1000 is pretty much entirely Chinese. It's all 100% legal under Swiss law.
Hi, bdw. nice video. But i rly like your Straps on youe Seagull 1963. Cann you link me where get it? Tnx
Got my 1963 Seagull for under $200. It draws positive attention.
Is it still holding up?
@@csordaserik1016 runs perfectly
@@rickgreen7393what about now? im indecise if i want to buy the acrylic or the shapphire one..
Up to the 1970s, Japanese products were considered cheap and nasty. Most were just knock-offs of Western products. I can still remember the Datsun 120Y (old name of Nissan), its body panels were so thin, you could dent it by just pushing it with your finger! And it was so light, it drove like it was floating on the road. However, the Japanese went on a quality drive when they realised quality mattered. Nowadays, most people equate Japanese products as of high quality and reliable (especially for Japanese cars). In fact, I still remember the Japanese bashing that was prevalent in the USA during the 1980s, similar to the Chinese bashing now.
China products are at the same stage Japanese products were during the 1970s. They have started to improve their products and still able to sell it cheaper than many Western counterparts. Give them another decade or so, and they will be able to produce high quality products which are reliable and probably still cheaper than their counterparts. In fact, you only have to look at mobile phones and see that the majority are now designed and built in China. Huawei being a prime example. Oh, and Apple products are all made in China.
Do you thinks Seiko 5 SNK809 is still worth it right now at $80?
Haters will be haters dude. Thx for this video. Just as you said.....I love watches......and I don't care where they come from
Wondering if forsining watches are any good jory any info?
I just read a artical about Swiss people just end Chronometer comptition they used to hold every year just beacuse Seiko almost winning all the top ten( the first three are swiss made quartz to save some face which means Sekio are the true winner. The Swiss cannot handle this and just stop the comptition ever since. So, swiss made had fallen long time ago.
They brought it back but the watches had to be made in Europe.
@@m1abrams1776 Aisa Watch Matter， lol
Time teller does the narrative of describing the qualities that these Chinese watches offers, its good to try and experience Chinese timepieces, tried plenty of those, and they still work, their quality is good, and they are repairable as well, when you know to repair them. Replica watches are not fake, since they have permits to make the versions of the originals. As for parnis and some of the "Chinese brands" they are genuine Chinese brands, that makes them special, same thing with qualities when you bought swiss made or Japanese timepieces. Learn to appreciate versions of creativity in many parts of the world, sharing their best products produced. They are not cheap, they are for the "ables" regardless of their economic strata's they are at. Ciao, enjoy quality and quantity in many parts of the world. :)
hello sir i really like your review
and it looks like you know a lot about it
i found a cool watch from the brand shenhua is this any good ?
What strap do you have? I really like it and I wish to get one myself :)
same here - the green/brown canvas/leather strap is gorgeous
ive been eyeing sea gull dual time gmt..but theres no available review...san martin is pretty good.they get good reviews..i just wish they have a better logo
Great info! My Starking was $35 and still works fine after over a year. :-D
Great summary, well done for not being prejudice....I've bought a few good watches like that by buying without looking at where they are from. Some chineese parts in them like Thomas Earnshaw. Thanks for this video cliff
What Watch strap do you have on the seagull ?
My best watch is made in Elgin, Illinois USA 101 years ago. Railroad grade pocket watch. It's a lot of fun.
Dude , all your videos are great & I really appreciate. All you've said have been well said & I totally agree with you. Nobody will want to grab your hand while you are walking on the street & see what watch you are wearing. We can only wear whatever pleases us & not others. People out there need to make some good research on Chinese Seagull watches history before making bad critics as honestly aside from owning some Swiss watches, I do also own some very & very good Chinese watches. Needless to say, most of the times, I find myself wearing many of my Chinese watches on a day to day basis & this has been going on for nearly 5 years now. They are damn good watches. After 5 years, till date, all my best Chinese watches are still working fine without any problem. Whatever my hard earned money can buy me is what pleases me & not what others think.
I love your channel it’s very helpful in my constant vigil for another watch on my wrist. I do have a suggestion. You have a really nice full beard I wish I could have one as full. But why don’t you keep it in trim it would look so much better. When someone first meets you a neat trimmed beard is their first impression of how you feel about yourself. You wouldn’t go out in public with an inside out shirt it’s the same with an untrimmed beard.
Can one actually service a seagull movement?
I was looking at the video wearing one of my Chinese watches, the Guanqin. My favorite Chinese watch is for sure the Seagull 1963.
I'm wanting a 1963, but there are soooo many listings (LIW, Alibaba, uniquewatches, etc) and variations (different subdial hands, swan neck regulator, 19vs21jewels). I'm so confused! Which dealers and models are legit?
I totally agree. I have mostly Swiss watches but my favorites are my skx007 and a Vostok. I was in the military stationed 6 a few miles from a Soviet union country but so what? My Vostok is super interesting and I am going tomorrow a seagull. Thanks for the great writeup...
Stuck in the US now and missing my Seagull 1963 left in my apartment in Shanghai. Great vid as always!
Casio is a Japanese Company, but their products tend to almost exclusively be made in China. Similar to most other Japanese companies.
Picked up my seagull 1963 w column wheel and sapphire crystal thru Ali's on sale one day $153.....6 weeks later, it showed up in my mailbox
It's quite a coincidence that today I'm wearing my Seagull 1963 chrono!! 😂 It's the 38mm, acrylic dome version. Just like the original from the 60's. This watch has such a rich history... It may be chinese, but has a lot of pedigree.
Christian Rodriguez - I chose the acrylic domed crystal over sapphire even though the cost was the same - for that exact reason; its heritage and to ensure that my watch was as close to the original issue as possible.
I'm a bit of a fan of acrylic crystals.
I bought the Seagull 1963 and it confirmed everything I thought I knew about Chinese quality control. It arrived broken. What DID surprise me was the relatively fast customer service, and the ease of the return process. Once this issue was sorted out, I've become a very pleased owner of a watch which is FAR more accurate than I expected, reliable, and looks great. Very pleased with the purchase, but it's not altered my opinion of Chinese quality control * or lack of it.
Where does one get your band? I love the leather/nato combo
Do you think there is a difference between fake, replica and homage watches?
My Red star 1963 is one of the prides of my collection along with the discontinued seiko sarbs.
I have a boutique watch I bought off eBay for $100. There are maybe a few dozen in circulation. It was an amazing value. It has a sapphire crystal, stainless steel case with a PVC coating, screw down case and crown, and a military style dial. The Seiko NH38 movement is accurate to about 6 seconds per day.
Have you seen Black by Blue Brave watches? I'm curious if they're any good. It's a Singapore brand, and they're Chinese made but Japanese imported Movement, they're really pretty but I'm curious if they're any good. They've been getting a lot of attention on Instagram, and they also sell on Amazon which makes me wonder if they're OEM. I haven't seen any OEM sellers of them so maybe they're one off design for the brand, tho will they be decent?
What strap is that? Nice video.
I got a octo that my grandpa bought in hongkong in 1987. Still works but needs some maintenance. Pretty cool cuz it has the week in chinese.
I have an Amazfit GTR by Zepp Health in Hegel, China. It is a smartwatch with a Li ion battery which stays charged for as long as 20 days. I really like the way it works, looks, and stands up to abuse. I like it much better than my over-complicated Apple Watch Ultra.
I never knew that singapore made watches, As a singapore resident I should buy one, any recommendations people?
I have a request if you would.
Can you review Oupinke watches? They are swiss watched and its manufactured in china .I got a feeling that this is one of those good ones. I just picked a 3168 Automatic and It makes some of my rolexes feel cheap. I had it for two years and keeps time. No problems with it. There isnt enough information about this brand. Please & thank you
Thank you for cranking out so many videos lately and also such good content! Keeping me going in this “shelter in place” time!
where did you get the strap? would love a link.
why are the ones at long island watch have only 1 line of chinese text at the 6 o'clock?
Have you heard about Pierre Arden Timepieces? If so, are they any good?
Hey guys, any thoughts about Boderry Titanium 72h Power? (BDA001T)
Love your channel Jory. Keep up the great work. Just bought a man cave strap for my seiko Sun019 kinetic. Also could you please do a review on the yema navigraf. Yes it's French not Swiss