Green Goblin #1-2, 4, 8, 12-13 - Atop the Fourth Wall
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- Welcome to Atop the Fourth Wall, where bad comics burn. In this Patreon-sponsored episode, Linkara looks at several issues from the short-lived Green Goblin series!
Check out more AT4W shirts at Shark Robot: sharkrobot.com...
atopthefourthwa...
Originally released September 11th, 2020.
ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: "I'm totally a good guy! That's why I'm named after a well-known villain!"
#at4w #GreenGoblin
![[UA] Team Vitality проти NAVI | IEM Cologne 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wttO1zVRTC0/mqdefault.jpg)
"Who would read a story about a good guy Green Goblin."
Honestly, me. I always loved the corny halloween gimmick of the character, and seeing it used for good felt like a weird but interesting developpment. I really like how Phil developped in the MC2 universe, becoming something of an uncle for Mayday.
Also, using the Green Goblin as a symbol of Good is probably the biggest victory you can score against Norman Osborn.
Well Norman did kill the dude in the end. Of course that was already after Phil became a supervillain.
YES! Glad to see someone else who's a fan of MC2 universe's Phil
I mean, it's an interesting and fun concept, making the Green Goblin a hero. But at the end of the day, I like GG as a villain.
Ah yeah, MC2 Phil is awesome! Gotta love an Uncle that fully encourages his superhero surrogate niece, even going so far as to train said niece.
An ongoing? It's not a premise I'd want to last. But a limited series? Yeah. It's so freakin' bonkers. Like, it was a terrible idea to take on the Green Goblin ID and try to be a hero, but terrible ideas can be fascinating to watch unfold.
12:52 If storyline Linkara does have three cats now, the third one could be Donna Troy: "well, we don't really know her backstory, but she's here now and that's great"
We keep figuring out her backstory but it keeps changing and getting reconned so we stopped trying
Only Linkara could take one tiny line about Bruce Wayne hating on VHS and turn it into such a beloved running gag.
Same with rock and roll.
@@thegreatstoneddragon9432 And lest we forget, the greatest enemy Batman has ever struggled against, his arch-foe: one-face.
When was this line again?
@@ChigoIEbere At around the eight minute, 20 second mark of Linkara's DC Challenge #1 review.
On-Star too.
It's really true that villains becoming heroes is super rare, especially them staying heroes. My personal favorite, probably not surprising with my avatar, is the Riddler becoming a P.I. it was such a great move for the character it gave him this amazing dynamic with Batman and I am so sad that they just decided to give up on it. I really would love a returned to reformed Riddler private eye I would read the crap out of that.
I’m personally a fan of shade after reading starman. But I also love the convergence tie-in about the crime syndicate. Because of how super-woman acts in it. One thing I hate about the modern crime syndicates is how lacking in humanity they are.
Apparently Doctor Doom had been filling in for Iron Man for a while.
Sandman reformed for a bit too and was undone as well.
I agree. The Riddler becoming a private detective was a really interesting idea. Forming a different rivalry with Batman and giving the Riddler some character development. I really wish they kept it instead of just reverting him back to the Riddler we know. I'd seriously read a Riddler comic where he solves crimes.
Edward Nigma has always been a genius... He was one of the few people to deduce Batman's true identity...
This Green Goblin is actually a really cool character, it’s a shame his story was cut short like this. If these comics were coming out nowadays I’d definitely fallow the series.
If my stolen supervillain mask gave me a strong electric shock every time I put it on, I would probably cover my face with something else.
Or weaponize that concept to punish the heroes
Peter and Phil fighting. Peter has Phil pinned.
Phil: Need to save Uncle Ben!!
Peter: WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!!?
HE RETURNS!!!! Just as the prophecies foretold!!
Hooray!
"Green Goblin = Batman by way of appearing homicidal and unhinged."
Oh, my gods, Crazy Steve reincarnated!, Oh who am I kidding, Green Goblin is ironically WAAAYY more heroic than Frank Miller's Batman.
You ARE talking about THIS Green Goblin, right?
@@cinemagraphic6324 Yes, but really, does it matter? Both are more heroic than Crazy Steve.
@@cinemagraphic6324 I mean even Norman stopped the Skrull Queen and ran a group of Thunderbolts, even a broken clock is right twice a day, unless you are Steve.
@@mesektet5776
ANYBODY is more heroic than Crazy Steve
Andrew Garfield Spiderman, Henry Cavill Superman and the GIJOE from Rise of Cobra are more heroic than THAT Severely Jeckified wonder-dummy in a batsuit.
@@mesektet5776 Uhm.... Osborn's actions in "Go Down Swinging" could Say otherwise.
Personally I think the best exemple of a villain who reformed and became a full-on hero (not a anti-hero) is Rogue from the x-men.
She and Hawkeye.
One Of The few Villains who Are full Hero.
Black Widow is half example due to her being kinda Anti-Hero fue to Nature Of The spy stories
Also Songbird, especially since she's the only member of the Thunderbolts to remain a hero.
@@BullseyeRey I forgot her. She is only Of The few genuine Villain to Hero" characters that prevailed hero
Do not forget Mach 1-5. He was once the Beetle but reformed and stayed a Superhero,just like Songbird
Of course she’s the best example she’s was redeemed thanks to rom space knight.
Vegeta: How did you know about the parts you weren't there for?
**Zim shrugs**
I love that the series just ends with the protagonist going "yeah no, this sucks".
A year late to say but I've only just caught up with this series. It's ok but really feels like the writers wanted to make sure this was never gonna be tried again. I understand cancelling the book due to marvel's financial troubles at the time but at least keep it open Phil could someday return as a hero or at least join a team like they hinted at early on in the books run.
MY GOD! THAT'S LINKARA'S MUSIC! HE'S BACK?!
Been quite a long time since we've had another "I AM A MAN" gag.
I agree
Nice to see the old gags being given a workout.
I'm really hoping we see it done with the Infinity Gauntlet at the end of the Contest of Champions arc.
@@ghidorah15 I think he already did it with the Infinity Gauntlet in one episode.
@@gamestation2690 Not the one the Temlin showed off.
The issue numbers chosen are actually a secret code. Really, this episode is Green Goblin #"HELP ME"
Translated into the two ciphers I can think of, 1-2, 4, 8, 12-13 would result in either Abdhmn or Cdhy.
@@Volvagia1927 Ah yes, Abdhmn, clearly a loose spelling of Abraham. Combined with Cdhy (City) we can only assume it means the city of Ur. Which could be read as U R, "You Are." But "you are" what? What are we? We have to dig deeper.
Abraham was from the book of Genesis. If we can assume the code has a double meaning, it might come from using the numbers to correspond to passages from Genesis, 1:2, 4:8, and 12:13
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee
Chaos, murder, and deception. Is that what "u r"? It could not be that simple.
The relationship between the last two lines is interesting, both having to do with a sibling relationship, one true yet destructive the other false yet life-saving. "Be my brother and you will kill me, be my sister instead and you will save my life." Yet in the beginning there was neither brother nor sister, but a formless void, as gender-less as could be, and yet it has still a face. A face of water reflecting back, just as God made man from his own image out of the very formless muck of the earth. God is "I Am", man is "U R", a change in perspective, a reflection.
Yes, a reflection. Like 2:1, 8:4, 13:12 would be a reflection of our numbers so far. If we do that, we get Bahdnm, or Bad Name. Who's bad name? The first thing that comes to mind is You Give Love a Bad Name. And God is Love. Do we give God a bad name? Or is it a "bad name" like a fake name, a name you can't trace or trust. We call God not by His true name. To give Him a Bad Name could simply be following the commandment to not use His name in vain.
Moving away from the God stuff for a second, Linkara is a "Bad Name" a pseudonym, a character. Perhaps he's asking us to look past that facade and engage with is true self.
Just in case, let's look at the passages for further insights
2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all their multitude.
8:4 And in the seventh month, on the seventh day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat
13:12 Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled among the cities of the Plain and moved his tent as far as Sodom
Formation, completion, rest, and settling. The reflection of our previous chaos is now serene, accomplished. Is there were we were trying to get to all along?
We also get a date, August 7th. Linkara didn't upload a specific video on August 7th of this year, but in between his upload on August 5th and August 9th we have a live-stream. A window into his true self, without the Bad Name? That's the closest we're going to get, so the next clue must be there.
If we go to 1:24:00, we get a question about the anime Eureka 7. On 7/7! We have both a Eureka and a Jackpot! A discovery and a reward! This must mean the riddle is solved. So this WAS all on purpose. There was an end-state to this, a victory screen, a congratulations! We did it everybody! We won. We solved Linkara's maze!
@@nessesaryschoolthing I don't even know how to respond.
@@RandoChrisYT I wouldn't have it any other way
@@nessesaryschoolthing you stretched that joke way too far.
And I applaud you for it.
And what was Phil's ultimate fate? He got killed by Norman Osborn when he got his hands on the Carnage Symbiote.
Jeez and did anyone acknowledged Phil's death?
Anyone in the Baily Bugle or Spiderman or did Marvel pull a Graduatiin Day that "He had no friends nor family, so we'll disregard him til the next event or reboot..."
@@battlion507 No one really did. We didn't even got see his uncle grieving.
Goblin Serum gives you a slow-but-steady healing factor, and unless I missed something and Norman chopped him into little pieces and dumped the pieces into a furnace, I feel that there are still good odds he'll come back eventually
@@andrewparsons2391 Problem is Peter had cured Phil of them Goblin serum. He was a regular human when Osborn killed him.
And there have been guys with the Goblin serum that have stayed dead anyway.
@@BullseyeRey so what you're saying is, when a writer inevitably decides to bring him back, he'll have to use slightly more imagination for his explanation than 'he got better?'
Outside of 'Lefty' Donovan and the clone of Harry (and he basically got liquified), which Goblins who took the Serum are still dead? Not counting clones of course. Hamilton never took it, he just had the costume and equipment; same deal with Macendale until he got powers via magic... and then Kraven's Serum... and then cybernetics. Leeds was a patsy who was never given it. If Daniel Kingsley ever took it, he died via decapitation, not healing from THAT. Norman and Gwen's twins, are, tragically, still alive.
I was literally just wondering “wait, how long has it been since the last AT4W episode?”
4 weeks ago, today.
Also late since he's supposed to upload on Mondays!
🎵 *2020, 2020, SCHEDULE PROBLEMS & OTHER BAD STUFF!!!* 🎶
I actually checked his website yesterday for the same reason
@@thatonea-hole he also moved
Poor him, will be hell trying to catch back on his schedule
I've known series that have gone longer without an upload. Wherefore art thou, Glove & Boots.
A Green Goblin that reflect Peter Parker would have been interesting.
Hmm, Interesting
Very interesting indeed!
That's what Dan Slot tried to do with him when he wrote him becoming truly evil. Making him a sort of twisted mirror image of Spider-Man/Peter.
I like that idea too. Lots of potential for great commentary and character work.
Venom already WAS the "anti-Spider-Man," though. I'd have preferred to have him become more of Spidey's Luthor rather than bringing him closer and closer to Joker.
@@Alucard-A-La-Carte Venom is a terrible anti-spider-man; he's just a petty guy with the same powers as Spidey, which is why he's constantly seperated from Spider-Man and given his one solo that deals with how his suit is alive with its own agenda. Phil as a villian has a philosophy that directly mirrors the way Peter looks at the world, making him a more effective shadow.
This is just making me wonder what Willem Defoe would have been like as a heroic Green Goblin. Could his over-the-top scenery chewing be used for good?
1. Look up "I'm a Marvel...And I'm a DC" sometime if you haven't already.
2. I think Linkara mentioned DC's "The Creeper." ;)
@@ShinyGaara65 Oh yeah, the Creeper is kinda like that isn't he? I had forgotten since I barely see him. When was the last time he was in a story? Is he even in the new DC continuity? Considering he's fun, my hunch would say no....
@@devlinburgess2463 I think the Creeper would look at the current DC, find out what happened to the Protector (yes I AM tilted about Heroes In Crisis, and I'm not even an actual comic reader), and roll his dice in the next reboot.
ShinyGaara65 (Jack Ryder)
They let you play the game as Green Goblin in Spider-Man:The Movie for Ps2 and Xbox. It's pretty fun.
What better way to bring back the 'I am a MAN' joke than that.
Villains becoming heroes: Hawkeye, Black Widow, Scarlett Witch, Quicksilver... That's all from the first year of the Avengers.
Also half of the original thunderbolts (songbird, Mach-VII and Atlas).
@@bizzerdman2093 Rogue, Wonder Man, the Swordsman...
Vision, Groot, the Super Skrull, Crimson Dynamo (a couple of them, there've been a lot of different ones), arguably the entire Winter Guard after the fall of the Soviet Union...
Hell the Inhumans right?
@@ginargent5077 Medusa at the very least. Not sure about the rest of the royal family.
Just a little pet peeve of mine, but why is the Green Goblin not called the Green *Gremlin?* Gremlins are known for being devilish fiends who cause technological malfunctions and they have a long history of association with aircrafts. Goblins usually go more for the trickster route, or warriors if you're into RPGS.
@@travishimebaugh8381 I guess it sort of makes sense then. A lot of my knowledge about the character only comes from media outside the comics like the cartoons and the Sam Rami films where the Halloween aspect is kind of toned down in favor of the tech stuff.
Now that I think about it, you don't see too many supervillains with a Halloween motif these days. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are Gobbie and Scarecrow.
Edit: Also, just Googled some pics of the Green Goblin's broom. It looks like a mechanical butterchurner.
@@cassie6146 yeah... most of the Halloween themed villains (at least in Marvel) are directly related to the Green Goblin, in some way (Hobgoblin, Gray Goblin, Goblin King, Jack O' Lantern/Demogoblin, etc)
@@RabblesTheBinx That reminds me, whatever happened to Gray Goblin after Sins Past? Linkara mentioned he made another appearance somewhere. I wouldn't think anybody would want to be reminded of anything from *that* story.
@@cassie6146 What about Jack O'Lantern, he uses tech but is full-on Halloween themed.
Sounds like a good name for a green goblin character pastiche, maybe to add to the rogues gallery of another spiderman type character. Blue beetle, ms. marvel, etc..
Ironically had Linkara read modern Spider-Man comics he'd have seen the best semi-reformed villain story in a long time: Superior Spider-Man. Go Spider-Ock!
Agreeed Superior Spider Man is badass!!!!
It was trash. Felt more like Dan Slott's Doc Ock fanfic. Kudos for doing something different though.
Umm...does the time Kraven the Hunter put on Spider-Man's costume and started fighting crime count? Sure, he kidnapped Spidey and buried him but at least he taught those creeps who were harassing MJ a lesson.
If I knew nothing about the stories surrounding the Green Goblin and just saw a pre-2000's drawing of him, then I might expect him to be a whimsical Halloween-themed superhero.
Actually really like Phil Urich and think that him being a villain really sucked.
Man I feel for ya, I felt the same way when the creeper, the chief, and c.c. Batson were made evil. now post heroes in crisis Tom king is writing about Adams strange another favorite of mine so I’m worried even more. And about Phil Urich The sad part was It only got worse for him after turning Evil. With axis he was humiliated by the hobgoblin (who was a hero but SUPER corrupt) and Norman Osborn killing him with the carnage symbiote.
I can't really comment, because I was introduced to him through Big Time, but I'm still gonna offer a "that's rough, buddy."
As my comment suggests he gets a far better treatment in the MC2 Universe with Spider-Girl.
IKR? The only times comic book characters go through any actual "character development" it turns out to be a bait & switch. With multiverse retcons and whatnot.
@@changvasejarik62 damn I wouldn't be too against making him a villain again, big time Spiderman's version of him as hobgoblin was probably my fave version of the character aside mark Hamills portrayal in Spider-Man the animated series, but did they HAVE to literally tear the kids heart out? Having it done by the original goblin Norman Osborn no less, and it really feels like one big F you to anyone who actually liked Phil.
You may be a Spider-Man!
But me, I AM A GOBLIN!!!!! (Punch!!)
Green Goblin: "What about my generous proposal, Linkara! Are you in or are you out?!"
It's you who's out, Gobby...out of the 90's!
@@MegaManXPoweredUp
*WRONG ANSWER!!!*
Proceeds to throw spinning blades
@@thatonea-holeduuuuude spinning blades are Extremely radical!
Green Goblin: *"Are you in, or are you- "*
(Opens Claws)
Wolverine: *"Go F==k Yourself!"*
@@kronemerj
*TO THE EXTREME!!*
If anyone here knows Phil Urich's Green Goblin for his appearance in the Spider-Girl comics, congrats, you're totally awesome!
Sadly not only he became Villain in Canon cómics. First Hobgoblin, later Goblin Knight Finally Goblin King before If I remember well Being murdered by Norman Osborn in The lead up to The "Go Down Swinging" story or during Said story
Only saw one Spider-Girl comic - got into Spider-Girl super late - but I do remember that.
I remember him the most from his role of destroying Sentinels during the Onslaught Saga.
Then Slott brought him back.
I loved him as a mentor to spidergirl that was one of the first times I got used to the man in the chair retired hero mentor type characters (I had missed batman beyond during it's original run)
@@ghareebcolt3954 Ah, there it is! Yeah, I didn't even know he was a hero in the main 616 continuity until now. He was an awesome mentor to May! As for Batman Beyond, like I said to Leonite, better late than never!
I hope all new characters and kitties get introduced with the “I AM A MAN!” Punch
... wait... Green Goblin? That can’t be-
YOU!
... YYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUU!
Pied Piper is the only permanent villain-turned-hero I can think of offhand.
I've heard Basil Karlo had become good, maybe that got retconned, it's second hand knowledge for me. Also Deathstroke is a weird one and yet I'd still accept anti hero, even with the Knights and Dragons animated film painting him very much as heroic leaning (strong family vibes and such)
And then there's Catwoman, Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn, all popular enough, but not such that they'd become outright heroes. But that's a whole other debate of being anti heroes on a sliding scale of goodness, because Red Hood has apparently gone semi good in his own right, though the article in question references him teaming up with Arsenal and Starfire, the latter of which I'm a bit confused about her being an anti hero, but...I do recall that really awkward treatment post New 52 with her being very sexual in a manner that was objectifying.
I loved the short run of Lex Luthor taking up the mantle of Superman when the New 52 Supes dies at the beginning of DC Universe Rebirth. It created a great dynamic for Lex with other heroes and had so much potential for great stories. But DC had to hit that reset button as fast as possible. Can't have fun stories here.
Mr Lovhaug welcome back! We missed you!
I remember this series. I still don't understand why it exists. Imagine in real life someone trying to be the "Good Ted Bundy"!
I have a difficult enough time appreciating the Green Goblin and-a-half AS villains.
If you want to make a Heroic Goblin, or an Anti-hero Goblin, there's a better, more clever way to handle that.
But, this probably ain't it, chief.
You mean Al Bundy?
Speaking of Jim Carrey references:
90’s comic: *exists*
90’s dude to Linkara: “Are you really in charge here?”
“We’ll come back to what I was going to do in September” I’m guessing he did not foresee the editing and uploading delays when he recorded that…
Started writing it, time stretched out, had to revamp some things. It was a miracle I managed to film two episodes before the move.
"I'm now and forever the Green Goblin!"
Uhhh, yeah, about that Phil.......
Gonna be honest: I've always been a sucker for the tattered cape/scarf look. I blame watching Getter Robo Armagedon when I was a kid.
For the most part, the most you can hope for is a villain stays a hero for a few years before eventually relapsing, such as Magneto, Riddler and Luthor.
The absolute best you can usually hope for is a character that flip flops; One who tends to go back and forth, but ultimately is net positive on the side of the angels.
Venom is an example of that, as he's probably had more stories in a heroic role now than he ever did as a villain.
Adaptations tend to be able to affect these changes better, interestingly enough. This is primarily because comic adaptations tend to have a natural end point and consistent creative team, so if they want a villain to turn over a new leaf, they can generally keep them there.
I'd say x23 Laura Kinney has a petty great villain to hero story. Through she was never a villan by choice
She was never really a villain. It'd be like considering a weather machine or a moon laser as a villain.
AussieDragoon I’ll have you know moon lasers and weather machines work so hard and this is the thanks they get
@@sscool100 But it's just a 9 to 5 with them. There's not passion for the craft.
@@AussieDragoon yeah. She never was a Villain if i remember.
It wasn't Even like Venom, Rogue, Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver or Black Widow ir Even Deadpool If I remember Linkara covering his Secret Origin who At least were villains in their debut issues
I'd love to see a restrospective on her, although is there enough history on her to make it viable? Wasn't she created in the 00's? Then again, Linkara is more of a DC can so, that lowers the chances even more...
I love cats! ❤️
Edit: I mean real cats, not the live action CGI movie from 2019.
Don’t worry about anybody getting confused. The musical is usually capitalized as “CATS.”
i mean, at the time of the comic there was that whole disney vault thingy, i think snatching a copy of the lion king was a good move back then
Nah, disney still does that. Though I suspect that it could've been an attempt at a joke.
But did the vault really have any meaning? idk, from my experience, just about all of the cartoon movies were never that hard to get if i wanted it. But that could be because i got about almost all of the classics at good wills and flea markets.
so basically during onslaught's boss fight in marvel vs capcom, off screen a heroic green goblin was having a moment of introspection after being attacked by a sentinel?
After getting beat up by a giant robot is a pretty good time to start questioning your life decisions.
"Our hero everybody, laughs maniacly and wants to instill terror into people"
Me: Anticipating Paradox Abridge Clip
I remember Phil urich aka the green goblin he actually was in one of my favorite series Spider-girl mayday parker and he was actually a fun mentor to spider-girl mayday parker the daughter of peter parker and mary jane and actually helped her against venom symbiote from taking over her father which was awesome and badass, unfortunately for his main universe counterpart he went insane and became the goblin king which was stupid in itself and then later died recently thanks to Norman osborn red goblin why because reasons it was so stupid and garbage.
Definitely.
@@DarsiPadilla indeed which honestly is sad because the Phil urich i knew was smart kind and well felt like a hero and a great mentor to my favorite marvel character Spider-girl mayday Parker at least in the mc2 universe as for the his main marvel universe counterpart its sad the he ended up turning into a villian and become the new hobgoblin fights superior spider-man loses then dies by red goblin Norman Osborn because shock value.
@@TevyaSmolka at this point, I'm fine with mainstream comics facing their own Ragnarök. By that, I meant their end.
@@DarsiPadilla sadly at this point i can see that being the case given the pandemic but hey i've been wrong before and maybe mainstream comics will fix themselves up soon i hope.
Meh, it was just Slott trying to tie up loose ends of the things he made (along with Clash, crime boss Felicia, Parker industries, relationship with mockingbird, Otto's development, the lizard regaining his humanity and others) . After all he made Phil go crazy in the first place. While I did enjoy Peter's confrontation with Norman in that story, Slott didn't really need to kill Phil off. He could have just left him beaten up like everyone else (excluding flash) who fought Norman and left him around for Spencer or another writer to do something with him.
Seeing Phil here it's sad to see him become a villain later on. I really liked him in this story
So this comic actually sold pretty well. But when they decided to bring back Norman Osborn to end the clone saga they didn’t want two green goblins running around. So the book was canceled.
Fun fact in the M2 Universe Phil is working with a retired Peter Parker as a CSI and his daughter MayDay Parker aka Spider-Girl/Spider-Woman as the Gold Goblin, a heroic repaint of his old 90's Goblin Gear
6:09 Glad to see you got 90s Dude to help you paint!
His contribution was some radical graffiti wasn’t it?
I’m like 80% sure he becomes a supporting character in Spider girl.
Indeed he did and eventually did join the new warriors there XD
Also as part of a group called Excelsior that started in a Runaways storyline.
23:17: So... we just gonna skip over Normie wearing a Batman shirt and holding a Power Ranger?
Wait he did?! Damn it. I missed it
Considering that Ben got to fight a Power Ranger, Goofy, Goliath from the Gargoyle and many more around the same time makes this not that suprising.
(That issue btw became a legal nightmare for Marvel, so much so that this issue never got a reprint in its original form.)
EnerKaizer which comic did he do that? It sounds amazingly 90s
@@Mrjhari16 Sadly I don't know the english numbering (I own the German version of it, and we have way different numberings) , but it's easily found atleast when you google it.
The story behind it was that Armada (one of Bens own Spidey villains) traped him in a VR world where in Ben seemed to have been shrunk down to action figure-size. He gets captured by a kid and then has to fight his toys that suddenly came to live (and of which all of them were actuall characters from different companys).
And, as I said, that Issue caused a gigantic wave of law-suit threats to marvel because none of those characters were officially licensed, thus forcing Marvel to re-call every issue and then replace it a month later with modified artworks.
Honestly you can still see who everyone was supposed to be, but they all look different enough so nobody got into trouble at the end.
The not-altered version is also one of the few modern comics with a bigger price-tag on the secondary market because Marvel could never release it again officially (even if most of those characters are now "brothers" under the Disney-umbrella nowadays.)
5:17 Great, now the kitties are starting to make *audio* cameos. XD
It’s an interesting concept, I have to admit. The execution is hit or miss but the idea is kinda novel and has a lot of potential. Awesome take as always Lewis.
Wow, Monday’s finally here! Welcome to atop the new home!
But it’s Friday.....eh, whatever.
Bizarro Critic Inc But Linkara uploaded. Therefore it’s Monday.
@@DigiRangerScott
🎵 *LET'S DO THE TIME WARP, AGAIN!!!* 🎶
Yo Lewis. The recent issue of Flash, Issue #761 made a retcon that possibly fixed a problem with Heroes in Crisis.
Turns out Reverse Flash gained a new power to send subliminal messeges through the speed force to members of the Flash family, including telling Wally to run away from his crime scene. It's not mich, but it's somthing.
Wait, really? That's a thing now!? I can't even BEGIN to imagine the implications on that! I mean, the speed force exist kinda outside of the DC Continuum, so they might have just poisoned every Flash story ever created! In fact, now they can say that the Reverse Flash sent subliminal messages in order to make Barry try to save his mother, starting the whole Flashpoint and the 52 Universe! Geez...
That seems problematic for future stories... and makes no sense for a speedster to be able to do.
If you can't tell that's what happened in the story, the story remains garbage
**sigh** Retcon, but I’ll take it. Especially to spare poor Wally of jokes about how he’s a canonical murderer
Rhys Causon in the issue he was talking about Thawne was able to do it while he was lost in the negative speed force after iris west disintegrated him.
HE'S ALIVE, ALIVE!!!
I always wanted to say that winthin context
23:17 that kid in the red shirt has a Batman Symbol on it.
Nute Gunray: My Lord Is That Legal
Hobgoblin: *I will make it...legal.*
23:17 Whoa, whoa, whoa, back up.
That's a kid with a Batman logo shirt and a Blue Power Ranger action figure. In a Marvel comic.
My mind is kinda blown right now. Does this stuff happen a lot in comics?
Edit: 29:37 And now a Superman logo? Was this just a *thing* in the 90s? See? Even Linkara was confused 'cause he mistook the Daily Bugle for the Daily Planet!
Sadly Linkara is right. Just to Say some examples of Villains who became Héroes and or Anti-Heroes even of briefly, in cómic Book:
- Black Widow: Didn't she started as an Iron Man Villain? Now she is one Of The better known Avengers in Mainstream media
- Hawkeye: Didn't he start Villain Too?
- Venom: Started Villain. Later Anti-Hero. A Lot Of stuff happened. But regardless Of host, The Venom symbiote has been everything but ironically enough NOT an Anti-Villain
- Magneto: Villain. Hero. Anti-Villain. Anti-Hero. Has been it All.
- Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver: Again Even If their Time starting as Villains was too brief, they DO Count as "Villains who became Héroes"
- Sandman / Flint Marko: He was Even once part Of The Avengers. Currently Zsdarsky gave him a send off and Who knows when he Will appear again
- Songbird: Started as Screaming Mimi. Became Songbird for Thunderbolts. Remained a Hero ever since
- Man-Bat: Currently in Wonder Woman's Justice League Dark and briefly in Mr. Terrific's Terrifics' expanded roster
- Punisher: Didn't he started as a Spider-Man villain / antagonist?
- Kaine Parker: Same. Started as Spidey Villain
- Deadpool. I mean he started on Liefelds's run as Villain didn't he?
- Rogue: One Of few genuine examples Of Villain turned Hero that actually sticked
- Clayface recently became an examples after James Tynion IV's run on Detective Comics
- Catwoman: Has been Villain, and Currently is Allied with Batfamily
- Black Cat. Always a Thief but sometimes became genuine Street level Anti-Hero
- Loki: For a time he was ..... Chaotic Neutral, Villain during Aaron's run and now he is..... Whatever he is now
- Kraven The Hunter: Became Unhuntable Sergei in A Squirrel Cómic book. Later revealed it was a clone and got killed Off-screen
- Otto Octavius: Became Superior Spider-Man. Died. Mental backup he Made Turned Villain, then Back Superior Spider-Man, then Christos Cage undid that
- Victor Von Doom : His brief Infamous Iron Man
- Lex Luthor: Became Hero In Rebirth until No Justice and Scott Snyder's run ended that
EDIT: I recently Remember/learned of this Ones:
- Beetle's turn At becoming Mach IV Also stuck as redemption Arc
- Dragon-Man: Enemy Of Fantastic Four. Was reprogramned (or one version Of his robot selves was) into being a caretaker and teacher to The kids Of The Future Foundation and has remained like that ever since
- Super-Skrull/Kl'rt: Started as one Of Fantastic Four's villains. Has occasionally being Enemy Of Earth but Cosmic Anti-Hero and back to Villain and Currently a Loyal Citizen Of Hulking's Kree-Skrull Empire. And Also Forced to be only on diplomatic missions as Of end Of Empyre's event
- Karn: Started as Villain members Of The Inheritors in Spider-Verse. Then became Master Weaver. Remained heroic until his death in Spider-Geddon
- Morbius The living Vampire: Didn't he start a Villain Too?
- Crimson Dynamo (Dimitri Bukharin): Apprently him being soviet in his debut made him bad guy from default but he has became apparetnyl good since then
- Echo from Daredevil: I didn't even know she was a bad guy first until i was toldotherwise
Honorable Mentions:
- Flash Thompson never was a Villain but was A jerk who became a Nice guy AND Hero
- Harley Quinn: She isn't a "Hero" per se but Currently she is Allied with Batman in Tynion's Batman run. That has to count
- Sabertooth: Got brainwashed into being good
- Jarro: Reformed Starro in a Jar who sees Batman as his dad. Jury is out on wether he genuinely is Starro. Or "Starro's son".
EDIT: Other New Mentions:
- Apocalypse in current Hickman's X-Men. Time Will tell How much it Will last
- Spider-Girl from Old Man Logan Universe: Has been used in a Lot Of Spider-Verse Stuff At worst being an Anti-Hero despite her debut being as a Villain
- Emma Frost: Didn't she start as a Villain? Or was she just an antagonistic secondary character in her debut? I don't remember
- Cosmic Ghost Rider: Didn't he start as Villain in his debut in Cates' Thanos run? Currently he is Off-Grid after being overexposed but i think he is linda MARVEL's Lobo when Death's Head is not around
- Curt Connors/Lizard: He has never became a Hero as Lizard but counts because he is a tragic Villain that rarely has ever wanted to be one on purpose. He is Currently "retired", and is just a college Professor, occasionally in Lizard Form and has a chip in The neck that paralyzes him If he tries to Attack in Lizard Form Even in Self defense for better or worse
- Eel O'Brien / Plastic Man: Shouldn't he count as "Villain turned Hero" If his Backstory had him begin as a criminal?
Not sure if I consider Superior Spiderman to be a real "hero" so much as just a villain with delusions of heroism. At the end of the day, he was still running around in Peter Parkers' stolen body from the very beginning and was just trying to prove he was better than him.
Rebirth Luthor is technically a different character from other versions of Luthor due to the way DC reboots work. Golden Age Lex, Silver Age Lex, Bronze Age Lex etc are all separate characters and I know that the first two at least have actually met each other.
@@jonathancampbell5231 um, no. Superior Spiderman WAS a genuine hero. The start of his run has him sharing memories with Peter of Ben's death and encouraging Otto to keep up Spiderman's legacy in earnest. At worst, he's an anti-hero, but he was still genuine about saving people and trying to help
@@daltonwilliams1723 The start of his run has him gloating over Peter dying in Ottos' body.
Then he takes over Peters' life and starts acting as a more violent Spiderman who doesn't have a no-kill code, which concerns the other heroes (although they are too dumb to figure out what is really going on.
It's only after this that Peter starts getting to him and he starts trying to act more noble for good, although he's still more ruthless and Peter and he still basically tries to turn ew York into a benevolent police state under his eye.
Even then, his run ends with him admitting that he wasn't cut out for this after the Goblin runs circles around him.
Coldcast from Action Comics 775 became a member of a Justice League faction led by Cassandra Cain.
@@jonathancampbell5231 Well Otto's second try At being superior Spider-Man was more heroic At least
Ya know it’s weird to see a hero come off from a villain identity, but I love when a comic villain becomes a hero and it sticks. Dunno, I always wanted DC or Marvel to do a book where the Justice League or Avengers recruits villains to redeem them. Not like Joker or Ultron but like, anti-villains. Dunno, I like the idea of a hero on a team with varying villains trying to be heroes.
Lex Luthor become a hero for a while. It was actually pretty cool but he recently turned back to evil
H Dracon yeah Lex being a hero isn’t an idea I like. Hypocritical you can say but like, Lex is one of those ‘too evil’ to be heroes. Now Lex being a fake superhero? That’s an idea I love. Especially if he runs his OWN justice league of anti villains. Dark Justice League... as opposed to Justice League Dark or Dark Avengers.
@@BronzeBoy520 interesting. On DC I know Man-Bat became a member of Justice League Dark and Clayface was a good guy for a time. As for Marvel you probably want to look at mutants specifically like Apocalypse in new Hickman run. Maybe Hellions migt entice you. Running out of ideas though
@@BronzeBoy520 Sabretooth was an Avenger for a short while. That was weird. Riddler became a PI for a while. Will post link to reddit post
www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/2z7yxi/i_loved_zero_year_but_i_miss_having_the_riddler/?
0:52 KITTY!!!
Boo?
90s Kid: He knows what he likes. I respect that.
"A Long Time Ago, I Did a Video..." I remember those days...
In the Onslaught issue when Phil took his mask off and the Sentinel stopped bothering him, I thought that what was going to happen was that he would then fight it without his mask, as himself rather than as Norman's stolen identity. Maybe even get seen by someone he knows, who agrees to keep his identity secret. I think that really would have been a cool moment of the character growing up and putting himself actually at risk to help others. Oh well.
I've always liked the idea that random goons have a union. A goonion if you will.
9:38 i literally went "You just summoned the 90s kid"
Some theories:
The writers were communicating much during those days, one might of thought he was going to temporarily do this but build up to bringing the Goblin back using the loose end of that dangerous zapping feature that changes his personality some in costume. Like it might slowly turn him evil. But then they found out after a meeting Norman was in fact being brought back at the clone sagas end.
Also I can guess why they put New Warriors under Spiderman. Between Firestar, street level leaders like Nightthrasher and the whole young hero vibe without them being mutants probably made them feel like a natural fit with Spiderman over letting the Avengers or X-Men team handle them.
Well there is one (or technically two in this case) shining example of a villain becoming a good guy and it actually sticking, Venom. (Eddie Brock and the Venom symbiote) Which is quite impressive and part of the reason the characters are so popular.
I'm guessing that a good Green Goblin was more a marketing decision to increase the Spider-Man line of books than a creative one.
Glad the creeper got a shoutout, because he’s the first thing I thought of when I heard “heroic green goblin”
30:12 welcome to 2020, Phil. We're just waiting for Godzilla, Cthulhu or whatever to finish the year...
Why does 90s kid have paint on his arm.
He was likely helping Linkara move house and lost a Pokemon battle with Harvey Finevoice so he was on painting duty.
What 90s Kid? There is only 90s Dude good sir.....
You don’t want to know.
Why don’t YOU have paint on your arm?
I'll tell you whose idea it was... Mine. As a little kid watching the 90s Spidey cartoon, I used to make my own stories using my large-size legos to make characters and one day I just went "Harry Osborn as a good goblin" and ran with it. Same playtime also offered Mary Jane as Black Cat (cuz I had run out of yellow blocks to make Felicia's blonde hair from the cartoon).
I know that Kraven The Hunter turned good, thanks to the great and amazing Doreen Green.
Phil made the right choice, he almost made the mistake of watching Cat on Boots
During this whole absence, my dad was able to find a house, speak to the landlord, do a walk-about, have a background check, get accepted and fully move in. No joke.
yay new AT4W episode this should be fun
Big fan of your work Linkara
It’s been too Long...
As far as the opposite to Heel to Face turns are concerned Sandman’s was good. Saw a bit of Artwork a few years ago based on the subject. It truly was Miller Time.
Next Time: IN THE NEAR FUTURE US-1.
Come to think, Kinda shocked that we haven’t seen the Highwayman show up with Goliath (Knight Rider).
Good to have you back Linkara. It's been a while.
It's great to have you back in my feed!
Dang actually made me fall out off my chiar laughing with the vegeta Tfs bit.
The "Uncle Ben" thing was almost certainly intentional. Every few years, Marvel tries to recreate the Spider-Man teen solo hero dynamic for what ever year is current. We had Nova, Speedball, Darkhawk, etc. They seem to ignore that Peter really wasn't treated like a kid hero for all that long. They got him into college fairly quickly by comic book standards and dropped most of the nerdy aspects of the character other than being into science. He was in college, living in the city, hanging with the cool crowd, etc. He was still young, but an adult.
Question for Lewis/ All the fans I’m genuinely curious about:
Does the Joker story “Going Sane” count as a villain reformed story to you? Or is the Joker White Knight story a better example?
White Knight definitely doesn't count, imo. He's not The Joker, anymore (well, most of the time), but he's still objectively the villain of the story. I mean, he mind controls Batman's rogues gallery and sends them on a rampage around Gotham, for crying out loud.
Going Sane is great but it's less about redemption than it is a loss of motivation. The Joker could keep going as a criminal genius but the thrill is gone without the bat. After he thought he succeeded, he stays in that theater and basically says "eh, fuck it, what's the point anymore ?".
French Paul 1988 “Well, that was fun. Who’s for chinese?”
"Without Batman,Crime has no punchline." Best quote from that episode
YOOOOOOO I've been waiting for you to cover Phil Urich for years. I'm so excited for this.
I'm stretching to try to think of a DC character that would fall into the "reformed villain" category.
There's the first Amazing-Man, but he was introduced with plans for him to reform by the end of his first arc. Tsunami was like that too.
There was the Helena Wayne Huntress, who co-opted the Paula Brook's Huntress' codename for herself. The Alex Montez Eclipso was similar, as was Brainwave Jr. (a lot of these have to do with the JSA, it seems).
Maybe somebody like Firehawk? Vartox? Captain Strong? Some versions of Catwoman or members of the Rogues? New 52 Killer Frost? The Shade? The Owen Mercer Captain Boomerang? The Witch (King Standish's archenemy/lover)?
Big Barda debuted as a reformed villain.
Bronze Tiger started as a hero, was brainwashed into becoming a villain, and I believe now is an antihero.
Windfall from the Masters of Disaster joined the Outsiders, but the writers then had her join the Suicide Squad and get killed. Great job, guys.
Psi started as the abuse victim of a true supervillain, attempted to reform, jointed the Suicide Squad as was also killed. Even better.
So sad that it's much easier to think of heroes becoming villains.
Obsidian
Infinity-Man
Hal Jordan
Tiger (Judomaster's sidekick)
Janu (Congorilla's sidekick)
OMAC and Brother Eye
The Creeper
Appa Ali Apsa (a Guardian of the Universe who gave up his position to learn humility and make atonement for himself)
The Stan Silver Ray,
The Jester
Wise Owl (the shaman who controlled the Western El Diablo)
Jason Todd
(Alias) the Spider
Triumph
Superboy-Prime
Cassandra Cain
Captain Atom (particularly heartbreaking for me)
Mento
The Chief
Raven
Hank Hall
Atom Smasher
Northwind
Brainwave Jr
Sargon the Sorcerer
The Adrian Chase Vigilante (though that was part of the point of the character)
The Mark Shaw Manhunter (multiple times)
Nelson Strong from the Adventurer's Club
Mr. E
Wonder Dog
B'Wana Beast
Maxwell Lord
Duela Dent
The Robert Crane Robotman, Tex Thomson Mr. Americ and Dan the Dyna-Mite in James Robinson's Golden Age (an Elseworlds story where the latter two had their brains replaced with the Ultra-Humanite and Hitler, but still...)
I'm not even basing that on your top 15 list. If anybody can think of anybody else for either category, please let me know.
God, why do we love comic books anyway?
I wonder if this was a response to DC’s The Creeper
Great to see you back, Linkara!
"Hey mind if a nap this copy of Lion King?"
As long as it isn't the Live Action version, be my guest.
10:25 I misread "Geraldo" as "Gesualdo", and am now peeved that the Musical Butcher of Venosa never inspired a comic book villain/antihero with a bloodthirsty yet deeply unhappy nature who spends his free time composing absolutely gorgeous avant-garde music.
Damn Linkara you had me worried for awhile
You should also add Professor Xavier on the list of "Heroes doing evil things", because apparently in one of the recent issues, somebody discovered a way to suppress the mutant gene in the mutants with some ethical issues, so he came to visit him and wiped his mind to forget the formula, but left the memory of him finding a way to suppress the mutant gene and Xavier wiping his mind, just so he could torment him with the knowledge that he found a "mutant cure" but will never be able to remember it again.
This is one of the best Easter eggs ever in my opinion Normie Osborn is holding what looks like the mighty Morphin blue Ranger and also he’s wearing a Batman shirt
Damn!
I Really loved this~💚
Wish for more Heroic Green Goblin!
Good to see you back! (Even if this video looks to be pre-recorded.) And hey, this was pretty interesting -- I'd never even HEARD of Phil and his Good Guy Green Goblin run. And yes, while it has its ups and downs (and terrible 90s art), the concept is interesting enough that I wish they'd done more with it. A shame it ended so soon -- and that Phil apparently got crapped on in later continuity. :( Is nobody allowed to be happy in the Spidey-section of Marvel?
Also, I would not object to you sneaking in Issue 9 when you do your Clone Saga stuff, since this mini-series takes place around the same time and has some links to it. Looks like a heck of a ride.
I'm trying to think of 15 villains becoming heroes.
Of the top of my head there's Magneto, Rogue, Black Widow, recent Venom, Red Hood, Harley Quinn and Lex Luthor
But then I realise that the later ones are the anti heroes that Linkara mentioned and then I enter the "introduced as villains but aren't villains" trope which includes the likes of Silver Surfer
Disappointed this didn't continue as there is definitely some great potential here that got left behind. Good Guy Gobby would have been a neat thing, especially since we have the heroic Venom and had a more heroic Hob Goblin
An irony I realized is that Black Widow, Winter Soldier, just the really good soldiers better than our reality kinda make them moot. As badasses I mean. They are largely on par with most of us because Thanos or Darkseid can just rip most of them in half.
They need super tech or super smarts. What good is Judo against a God?
You are still the person I respect the most on the internet. : )
I'd love to see Phil Urich become the Green Goblin again, I really liked the dynamic he had going on.