The Punisher: Purgatory - Atop the Fourth Wall
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- Опубліковано 20 сер 2024
- Welcome to Atop the Fourth Wall, where bad comics burn. In this Patreon-sponsored episode, Linkara looks at the first Marvel Knights Punisher miniseries!
atopthefourthwa...
Originally released April 24th, 2018.
ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: A comic that is absolutely beloved by the forces of hell for how much pain it's caused. - Комедії
Sooooo, they tried to turn the Punisher into Spawn. Makes sense. Spawn was more popular than oxygen back in the 90s
It is weird, because they have both Ghost Rider, and Hellstorm for this sort of story...hell even Blade.
this could even work as a Morbius story if you squint hard enough.
Anyone else want a crossover between spawn with the punisher and/or ghost rider?
I can't believe I googled Oxygen superhero, instead of thinking you meant air >_
Yeah, I kept thinking throughout this review "... This is just Spawn!" Like to the point I think Todd McFarlane would have grounds to sue.
Like, Olivier must be a really, REALLY good judge of character if he knew Frank was going not only to go into a never ending murder spree if his family died, but do so successfully in a world where one bad run in with Wolverine, Dark Phoenix, or Hulk and it's over. How did he know Frank wasn't gonna fall into a decades long depression with a slow recovery, or be done after getting the more immediate, traditional revenge? Remember that this plan involved Olivier's own death, so you have to be really sure.
Well, we know that Superman wouldn't care to stop this portal to hell. Because after all, this focal point for arcane energy is OVER THERE. And OVER THERE needs to take care of itself.
Wait, I can summon Satan over there and Superman won't stop me?
@@EN-mh4og pretty much, yeah.
I mean, Lucifer, at least, is over there running a bar whining about how everyone blames him for everything@EN-mh4og
As ridiculous as this all is, I will admit, "I see it...but I'm gonna pretend I didn't" is a pretty great piece of dialogue for a cop seeing probably the most dangerous man in New York walk out of a collapsed burning building like he's the goddamn T-1000.
I can't imagine that plan to conquer hell went great.
Olivier: "Lucifer! I have raised an army to overthrow you! Behold my legion of a couple of thousand street thug souls!"
Lucifer: "... Just a second, I need to shapeshift into Dr. Cox to explain to you just how stupid of an idea this was."
"Okay, Alice, you might want to get your pen and paper so you can take notes because you can bet your sunny little pigtails there's going to be a test at the end--"
Doom Guy/THE SLAYER: "... Little busy over here!"
The sad thing is that there's a great story to be told about The Punisher meeting his victims in Hell, and being confronted with what he's done and the lives he's ruined. If it was more Dante's Inferno, and less Buffy The Vampire Slayer, this might have actually been pretty damn good.
You know, I'm not quite sure! I know there was a recent issue with them fighting, and Ghost Rider's penance stare not working because Punisher doesn't feel any regret for all the people he's killed.
louthegiantcookie I could be wrong, but wasn't it later retconed that the reason it didn't worked was because frank hadn't killed anyone innocent?
louthegiantcookie wouldn’t that be ‘less Angel’?
Geoffrey, I was curious so I googled Punisher vs Ghost Rider. Wow, that was really dumb: imgur.com/gallery/ouI1x
FWIW this series was written by Christopher Golden who wrote a lot of tie in fiction for BtVS and Angel, so that may go some way toward explaining why parts of this feel like a knock off of those.
Just the fact that this comic is trying so HARD to emulate Preacher, and that Marvel actually hired Garth Ennis to fix this mess is pretty hilarious.
"Vengeance is selfish" but doing things solely to gain enough "Redemption" to be rewarded with your own greatest desire, totally not selfish.
When I first heard about Frank as some kind of semi-divine resurrected being, I thought it would be something that fit more in line with his character.
For example, Frank Castle is dead, having finally bitten off more than he can chew. Maybe his luck ran out or there were just too many, but he died. Then he is resurrected by an archangel and tasked with doing basically the same thing he was, only with better intel, lightly blessed weaponry, and more targets. I pictured him hunting down assorted scum that had managed to evade judgement along with the types of people he killed before he died.
Yes the setup has been done before, but I fell like it would do a decent job of echoing the "mundane" street level stuff and staying in keeping with his character. Sure he could occasionally do something "bigger," like assassinate a mid-level Demon or maybe he gets in a turf war with a Ghost Rider, but for the most part he could be doing the same. Heck, maybe his boss/patron has a rule preventing Frank from using the divine ordinance against mortals who have no specific connection to the arcane, profane, or divine.
Basically an Archangel thought he could be useful and gives Frank targets and light logistical support as his boss/patron. No retcon of Frank's origin, the option to largely maintain the style of story, and a bit of new flavor.
Sweet so Linkara has covered Santa Punisher, 2099 Punisher, Black Punisher and Angel Punisher, he just needs to do Venom Punisher, Frankenstein Punisher and War Machine Punisher and he'll have the whole cavalcade of weird things Marvel has done to the Punisher over the years
The Price of Horror dont forget cosmic ghost rider punisher and his team up book with dr strange called magic bullets
The Price of Horror also dr punisher soldier surpreme
Next time on Whatculture Comics: 10 Most Bizarre Versions of The Punisher
Or alternatively: 10 Things Marvel Wants You To Forget About The Punisher
For wankers
Frank adding Stevil during Secret Empire counts? i understand but i have heard frank would never try to bring his family back. so continuity snarl or retcon there?
Also Space Punisher and Captain America suit punisher post civil war
As someone mostly unfamiliar with the Punisher, I have to agree with your closing comment, as a stand-alone story featuring some original character, or even as an alt-universe new origin for the Punisher, it’s not a bad concept. It’s the whole “I was the secret mastermind of everything that ever happened to you! Mwahahaha!” Retcon that makes it BS (and it always is, whenever they try to pull it).
I just pray he dosnt try somthing like this as a joke in one of his story segments (Anyone els agrea?)
I don’t know I think kingdom hearts did the whole secret master mind who was behind every thing twist pretty well. So I think the twist can work.
I'm not too familiar with KH, but the "secret mastermind" twist can work fine, if the story was written with that idea in mind from the beginning. The problematic version is when stories try to retcon a secret mastermind into earlier plots that weren't written with that intention.
Superbun fair enough
Also, while I'm not a big Punished fan either, the whole point of the character is the randomness of his origin. Like with Batman, it's the whole idea that violent crime can happen to anyone and the victims just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A few minutes either way could have made all the difference.
It's that fear we all have that we could lose everything in an instant just due to being in a uncaring universe. It's about how no one really has control over their lives and the survivor's attempt to enforce control.
I like how they drew the gatling gun shooting from all of its barrels at once. I'm gonna go on a limb and presume the writers and artists have no idea how gatling guns work and why they have multiple barrels in the first place.
So few people get firearms' mechanics or design philosophy, particularly in the 90's.
Yeah, in the 90s there was a lot of comic book art that depicted Gatling guns as firing from every barrel simultaneously.
I blame Liefeld.
It took me a bit to figure out what this new backstory for the Punisher reminded me of. Then it finally hit me: Al Simmons. This is basically the origin of Spawn but with Simmons replaced by Castle. It really feels like the creators were trying to cash in on the popularity of Spawn with this new story for Frank... And it sucks.
You know what I think would have improved this story? If the Punisher getting involved was an accident. He could be going around, doing his own thing, hunting and killing criminals, ‘till he realizes one guy he shot isn’t staying down. He’s one of the big bad’s soldiers from Hell. Only it’s a guy the Punisher doesn’t know. The Punisher keeps trying to kill him, but he isn’t budging, but then he gets saved by the angel, who tries to keep him out of it, but Frank gets involved when he goes after another criminal. Only this is a guy he DID kill. And like the guy he didn’t know, he isn’t staying down. Suddenly you a have a better reason for the Punisher getting involved, someone is bringing back dead criminals, and the Punisher ain’t having any of that on his turf. Once he learns about the demon, the angel temporarily gives him his powers, and heck, he doesn’t have to have a connection with the demon, he could just be a random guy. And finally, the Punisher would fight the demon himself, and in his own way, he would kill the demon by shooting him with a magic gun he pulled out, with maybe skulls in the demon’s eyes or something.
Now I’m not saying that the story I just proposed would be good (it would still deserve the critique of it doesn’t feel like a Punisher story, and I’ll admit, this story feels more akin to Ghost Rider for me), but at least it would have been better than this tripe!
Its much better as A) It sounds like a limited run that would not affect Frank past its story and B) would not chnage the very fundamental nature of Punisher
Honestly sounds like the best way to do a supernaturally-themed Punisher story.
"Where'd he purchase those?" I love you, man.
The Warframe platinum store, judging by the looks of them.
The whole thing sounds like the writer really wanted to do a Spawn story but was denied, so he transplanted it into the Marvel universe when given a chance.
Also, Frank's crusade being ineffectual or even beneficial to criminals isn't as much of a retcon as you think it is. A lot of Punisher stories throughout the character's existence have been about how he's ultimately not a hero, just another serial killer, and his actions aren't actually helping anyone. So Purgatory's revelation that he was bolstering the ranks of Hell with every kill fits perfectly.
I think the problem is that he is robbed of his agency as a character. He is not a soldier that went over the edge and started causing pain in a twisted quest for "justice" that's actually vengance. He is a pawn. His family was killed specifically to turn him into the Punisher. He was made, manipulated.
Frank choosing to be a serial killer that sees himself as a hero but is not, that's one thing. Making him the unwitting pawn of a lesser villain that secretly uses him for years is another. I'm pretty sure Linkara doesn't think Frank is a hero that helps people. But even as a bad guy he used to have agency. In this story they take that away from him retroactively.
He kills bad guys and give some people hope. He is one of the good guys. And this story can go strait to hell.
Also, didn't Garth Ennis do a super grimdark mini-series of Castle's tour of duty in Vietnam where he's tormented by his inner darkness in form of a voice in his head? As the comic progresses Ennis plays with the idea it might be a supernatural, demonic entity pushing Castle into his life as a vigilante. A good writer can turn the ideas presented in this week's comic into something that works, is what I'm saying.
Compaired the shit some other heroes do in the Marvel Universe what Frank does is small potatos.
+viraltang I think Daredevil said it best in season 2 of the Netflix show. When you kill a criminal, not only do you make youself similar to them, but you rob them of their chance to become a better person.
Sure, The Punisher kills some people who are just beyond redemption. But the problem is that he often doesn't seem to care either way. He just kills them. And he enjoys doing it. He cant help but do it, because it drives him. He is a sick man.
Anybody else get a “This really wants to be Spawn” vibe?
The sad part is, I really LIKE this idea.
The idea of deconstructing Frank's brand of lethal vigilantism by giving it otherworldly consequences is rather terrific, and i greatly appreciate the notion that he has to redeem himself for this, not just by killing more random dudes, or even killing the same random dudes again, but by actively working to make the world a better place, as is the case with that abuse victim.
But...and 'I'll concede this point readily...I am not a Punisher fan. Like...I'm *really* not a Punisher fan. Had this been about a new character (Marvel's answer to Hellblazer as Linkara mentioned, for instance), it could have been a great urban fantasy story using Christian mythology as a backdrop for some neat adventures exploring moral shades of grey. But it was supposed to be the Punisher, so compared to the Punisher's usual fare, it seems over the top and silly. And that's not even getting into the retcon business.
I do wish Marvel would make a "Purgatory"-style character to explore this sort of midway point between real-world street hero story and supernatural "Heaven v. Hell" crusades. However, Frank Castle is not such a character.
Should've just made a new character. Jessica Jones was originally going Jessica Drew, but then it was decided that was a terrible idea and they changed it, thank god.
Edit- So yeah I agree with you.
That's what ghost riders for
It was mostly because of Drew’s role in Secret Invasion, right?
Well, to be fair, there *has* to be *some* point where Frank is going to have some consequences for his actions. Because even if those guys were criminals, they had families, too. Plus, if *I* were to write the character of Frank Castle for the first time, I would've written him as a pacifist rather than a vigilante. A sort of Human version of The Doctor without all of the things that makes The Doctor a Time Lord. A man who solves problems and defeats enemies with words instead of being something that he hates and by this, I mean that because of all of his vigilante antics, he is quite literally a criminal. That's why superheroes hand their criminals to the cops after beating the shit out of them. Plus, I don't think the comics have ever addressed the fact that Frank Castle is considered as a criminal in the eyes of the law and the only thing that *has* addressed such a thing is in the Netflix show, where he's constantly hunted by the FBI.
@@DoctorWhoKage Frank Castle being a pacifist makes no sense. He's a soldier turned violent vigilante. You're version of Punisher doesn't sound like him at all. And he is a wanted criminal. The super hero community doesn't even like him.
Wait, a black Coat wearing Edgelord who used to be a good Man but is now stuck between Life and Death, is Hell bent on Revenge and materializes an endless supply of Guns that he pulls out from his Coat ?
Is this the secret Origin of Reaper from Overwatch ?!
as soon as the infinite guns thing happened that's what i thought too
PPG - Shadeshifter Punisher skin for Reaper? The iconic akull could be his mask.
... I mean now that Frank Castle, the Galactic Ghost Rider from an alternate timeline is running around it's less of a novelty, but they could have easily just had him become a Ghost rider if they really wanted to give him a reason for super natural vengeance and what-not.
Or have Ghost rider involved. or give ghost rider a tory. it is not that difficult
.... huh. Didn't know that was a thing that was happening. Multiverse/Time Travel shenanigans are always so weird.
Man, Frank really went through a lot when people try to come up with something new for him. Make him Frankenstein´s monster! Make him African American! Make him an undead killing machine! Make him immortal, the Ghost Rider, work for Thanos and become the herald of Galactus! Make him wear short shorts!
Make him War Machine, to add a recent one.
Punisher being War Machine kinda makes sense though.
Technically, the Cosmic Ghost Rider is an alternate Frank Castle, not the "mainline" one.
Technically, he's not adopted the mantle of War Machine. He just stole the suit and is now using it to blow up criminals.
Having him endlessly shooting criminals can get pretty boring after a while. Can't really blame the creatives for trying to experiment and shake things up every once in a while in an attempt to keep things fresh and interesting.
Gunstantine!
CrystalblueMage congrats! Linkara said this was his favorite comment for the vid!
.... So in essence, the Keaneu Reeves Constantine.
Oh my god, I just imagined Keaneu Reeves as the Punisher and it sounds awesome.
Then again, that would probably just be John Wick.
TFW Archie Meets The Punisher is more respectful to Frank Castle's roots than this Marvel Knights comic.
"As we approach our five hundredth episode in two weeks." Dang 500 episodes in two weeks? Your upload schedule sure has sped up. :p
"I never thought I would die alone.."
"Um, dude, I'm standing right here...""I'm totally alone, Frank. Nobody else here."
I'm all alone
(He's all alone)
All by myself
(Except for me)
I cannot face tomorrow
(He cannot face it)
I'm all alone
(Though i am here)
So all alone
(So very near)
No one to share my sorrow
"Bald people in sunglasses are not human."
Damn, the secret's out! I better hide.
You know, about 80% of this story sounds like a really great idea that could go down as an all-time great. I like the idea of Frank reframing and reconciling his very long, bloody history, going down a path of redemption and eventually finding an inner peace. It sounds like a phenomenal long-term story arc that retires the character in a meaningful, heartfelt way that respects his history and gives him the ending that he deserves.
It's just that the 20% there more or less spits on his entire legacy up to that point and not even for a better point. All it accomplishes by having a "It was me, Barry! It was me all along!" moment is convolute the story and reframe his actions as not really having been of Frank's free will. If it was something more along the lines of the idea that he just killed so many people and sent them to hell, denying them redemption and leaving, I dunno, a tangible psychic scar in the universe that becomes a portal for all of those victims of Frank to come out and seek vengeance, something like that would've gone better. Make the trail of destruction one of Frank's actions made with his free will. The story here is literally a deus ex machina for his life as a story where some angelic entity comes, well, up in this case, spouts a bunch of crap that resolves all of the loose ends neatly and undercuts any potential remaining for the character.
It does sound interesting, especially given how weird other Punisher concepts are, this actually sounded like it could've worked.
I looked up Garth Ennis' "Welcome Back, Frank" series, the one that basically undid everything Purgatory did for the Punisher. In the first page, the narration said something like Frank did eventually get a chance to go to Heaven, but decided it wasn't for him and went back to Earth to continue doing what he does
This comic is stupid, but the idea that people would *pray* for the Punisher to show up and get the people who are wronging them is interesting. Like a real life Nemesis, not the Resident Evil monster but the Greek goddess of revenge.
The flatiron building is a wedge between here and _there_. And remember, over there has to deal with its own problems.
The Punisher became a supernatural being? Changing from a vigilante story to a supernatural story is a really weird shift of genres. What do these writers thought they were writing? Marville?
this comic feels more like a story from "the darkness" than "the punisher"
Gadreel, Grigori, Lucifer's son who is actually good... this feels like a "Supernatural" episode lol
Okay, what? So Punisher killing gangsters was evil and would send him to hell... but then at the end it's said that Punisher killing gangsters is then good and his chance for redemption?
So can this comics decide, is killing people good or bad?
Late I know but the answer is whatever the writer decides.
@@DaveMiller6042 No it's freaking not. Either of these would be a good choice - but it need to stay consistent throughout the storyline! It can't be BOTH!
Like I'd be okay if it was retconned in the very next arc - but here, the moral laws change *within the same story written by the same people!* This is just bad inconsistent writing!
@@ShinoSarna calm down it was a joke
@@DaveMiller6042 I wasn't mad at you, I was mad at whoever wrote this tripe.
@@ShinoSarna fair
I can't tell if Linkara is referencing Bob Ross or Deadpool's parody of Bob Ross, but both ideas make me super happy xD
Reference of a reference? BBWWWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH
I'm not much of a Punisher fan, but one little issue I have with this is that the demon tricked Frank into killing himself. I feel like it would have made a lot more sense if he had willingly done it BECAUSE he realized that he was a demon pawn, but forgot that upon his resurrection. Otherwise, this book completely strips him of his agency as a character. Well, it arguably still does that, but whatever.
It's fun to hear you talk about things that are good or just okay, but I have to say, my favourite reviews are always the ones of the universally hated comics. Either getting a good understanding of why they're hated, or hearing a fresh perspective on it, is always great!
That line near the end, "Where'd he purchase those?!" got a good chuckle out of me. :)
That ending bugs the shit out of me. Frank has always held that Vengeance had nothing to do with why he did what he did. It's in his name. He's out to *punish* the wrong doers who walk the streets freed by the weak justice system.
Man, This Reboot of preacher is weeeeeird
But no where near as insane
26:13...No, Linkara. It isn't that the Punisher is known for his fencing skill, he is a Fire Emblem fan. The one thing that can beat someone with an axe, is someone with a sword.
"Demon to some Angel to others" Killing machine to everyone *fires AK-47*
“They snort Jell-O powder.” Hey-too much pudding can kill you.
TheHeroOfTomorrow oh no! He ate too much pudding!
ANGEL: I never... thought I would die alone.
FRANK: Ouch.
The Daily Bugle is the focal point of the dark arts in new york.
Weird. You'd think that'd be the Sanctum Sanctorum.
The Mystic Arts aren't the Dark Arts, whatever the religious nutters will try and tell you. In fact, the Dark Arts are precisely what Doctor Strange spends most of his life fighting *against* .
I'm just saying it's the most magical place in New York. In fact didn't the animated movie say that the Sanctums are on an interdimensional Nexus?
Looks like JJJ's plan worked like a charm, eh? Being the epicenter lets their reporters get the scoop first, no?
"He smells of earth and smoke." And if we consider smoke the result of wind and fire, a sorrowly missed musical reference.
Now I want to see the Punisher as Cupid.
no
He would find a way to weaponize love arrows, I swear.
MiscellaneousSoup I WILL MURDER MY OPPONENTS... with luuuurrrrrvvvvveeee ;););););););)
Yourson Isod so He'd be making Yandera arrows? Love poison arrows?
Lloyd Landrum
Yeah, making them fall in love so deeply that they get demented levels of jealous and kill each other.... Brilliant.
I have much respect for Linkara.
same here man.
In spite of his weird past (but who doesn't have a weird past), Linkara has probably shown the most integrity of many content creators.
XanthinZarda what weird past?
To be fair, Frankencastle is pretty awesome. That is a really fun book. Baffling that they chose Frank specifically, but if it's good it's good.
Sir Yvain think about it. FRANKenstien
The punisher: let's turn him into a black guy! Let's make him an angel! Let's turn him into frankenstein! Ooh, i got it! Let's give him pokemon and he trains them to kill bad guys for him! And he even makes the pokemon little shirts with skulls on them XD
VI-GI-LANTES! GOTTA ICE 'EM AAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLL!
So what if you make him a black Frankenstein angel with Pokemon?
Heavens Lewis, do you sleep?!
He Sleepwalks through eternity.
DGilVids sleep is for the weak and linkara is never weak
DGilVids do you?
Sleep is for the week.
He'll sleep when he's dead?
The Punisher, starring Dante from the Devil May Cry Series! is the vibe I get from this series
"This party's getting crazy! Let's punish people!"
*smashes jukebox*
Putting supernatural junk in Punisher isn't that bad an idea since it's Marvel and Frank has fought mutants and super soldiers in his stories, but it shouldn't be the main focus.
Maybe a stray demon who just decided to become a mob boss so it'd be another gang Frank fights.
I liked that bit with your "old coat" a nice reference to after when you first defeated Missing-No aka The Entity
Well, his encounter with it DID activate the item duplication glitch. Looks like it's still affecting the coat. Also, did you catch that other reference in the same scene?
what other reference?
The one about Magic Pockets. He said the same thing back in that Power Rangers comic review episode when he first fought Mechakara.
@@wikiuser92 With this episode, it's now my headcanon that the item duplication is the real reason why he changed to a new coat.
Do ya know what was in the sixth slot of my inventory? A tricorder. And another tricorder. And another.
whats a tricorder?
Ian R. Nava Huber a scanning device from star trek
Ian R. Nava Huber Also the thing that inspired folding cell phones.
If for some weird reason, you want to have the punisher dealing with supernatural stuff, instead of angels and frankenstein's monsters, why not just make him ghost rider? like, wouldn't that at least make sense?
They did have Punisher as Ghost Rider....in that awesome Thanos Wins arc in the recent Thanos book.
SMAXZO really? Well, about time I guess.
Well, it's an alternate future anyways..but Ghost Rider Punisher is pretty funny.
If the clash of weapons from heaven and hell open some sort of portal, then woudn't that mean that the old war of angels versus demons would've involved tons of holes opening up everywhere and confusing everyone?
Sweet Madoka! Slade’s serving Trigon! Oh wait. It’s just Frank...
Homura Akemi that actually happened...
That's the idea...
Homura Akemi right.
15:30
That Bob Ross reference. That's a like
Sergio Campos This storyline is a happy little accident.
Hmm, a Punisher story that retcons his entire career to be utterly futile, not to mention the results of the machinations of Hell itself. As someone who hates the Punisher, should I think this is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing?
I'm gonna go with Bad Thing. While I might not care for the character, clearly some people do, and this is really stupid and disrespectful to the audience.
That's pretty much where I'm at.
I can definitely see why this would get under people's skin. . .but I'm a little surprised still that it's SO hated. As you say, Frank as an undead force of vengeance isn't necessarily a BAD angle to take with him. I guess everyone hated the incompetent retconning of Frank's whole life and reason for being the Punisher so bad, it completely destroyed any interesting ideas the book might have had. Shame, really -- you get the feeling a better writer might have been able to do something with this.
. . .I do really like the image of Frank sitting in that alleyway just scarfing down an entire loaf of bread, though. XD
Also, I'm not sure why the demons are so pissed off. Our Lord and Savior Beebo is impossible to hate. Beebo loves everybody.
Some Random Guy all hail beebo lol 😂
I so want them to introduce Beebo into the comics.
Some Random Guy “Thou shall cuddle the demon till the demon reciprocates the cuddle with the promise of the hungry.”
- Beebology
Some Random Guy All hail the mighty Beebo!
I swear Legends of Tomorrow can get away with anything and I'd be OK with it. Praise Beebo!
"When he designed Union Station, was that also a portal to hell?"
That is the perfect set up for a line like, "Well, it is Union Station," but I have no knowledge of its reputation, so I don't know if the joke would land.
So basically, someone thought it would be a good idea to turn the Punisher into an off brand Spawn.
Thanks Lewis. This was one of the funniest of your reviews. The chucky line funny to me, I loved the Dark Universe joke, but the thing you used that made me laugh the hardiest is "Your not pizza" I don't know why but it just was. There's more but those made my day. Thanks.
I'd say you could have him fight demons, but you do so by means of escalation. Castle gets his cool new vengeance powers. He fights the worst of the the worst in terms of criminals. He then fights some guys that have low end magic that uses human life as a catalyst. So magical serial killers basically. Then you push the envelope with a familiar type of criminal, but it turns out the guy was possessed all along. That's how you'd get to demons. No monsters just strolling around, but spiritual threats that give him weird challenges to overcome.
Something similar happened when he fought The Hood, a street villain with magic powers who revived dead villains to kill Frank. He never got powers in the end, but he started using all kinds of tricks to rekill them.
@LupineShadowOmega
So, Story Escalation, basically?
Indeed. Though also a matter of gradually introducing more fantastical elements. A pretty good example is the world of Berserk going from low fantasy to high fantasy over the course of the Golden Age Arc.
Writers just going all in with those kinds of elements with no foreshadowing or buildup and...people tend to ask what the hell is going on?
25:40 ... I was really expecting a shout-out to that big-ass gatling gun at the end of Superman: At Earth's End
When Frank pulls out the chain gun, it reminded me disturbingly of "Superman: At Earth's End."
Woohoo! Magic demon slaying guns! The kids will love this!
8:45 Wait... is that a reference to how you accidentally used the missingNo glitch which gave you hundreds of tricorders?
God, that was years ago
I smiled at that reference. Seems the item duplication glitch is still in effect. Also, don't forget the Magic Pockets reference to his first confrontation with Mechakara.
wikiuser92 that felt so good to see
What is a tricorder?
Cody Hines Star Trek scanning thingamawhoozits. I don't really know but that's what I've gathered through osmosis watching Linkara.
The last time I followed Linkara, he was getting ready for his 200th episode. Man tie flies.
This comic seems like the equivalent to Spider Man unmasking himself in Civil War... a screwup of massive proportion that messed with an established part of the character.
While I agree the _execution_ of this comic is pretty subpar, the _ideas_ behind it are actually sound and could make a brilliant deconstruction of the character. Let's be real here, even if you liked runs of Castle, he's a straight-up villain and stands for dangerous, toxic ideals: the rejection of the rule of law and the social contract. No wonder he was readily adopted by the alt-right, killer cops and psycho soldiers who formed squads hunting for innocents in Iraq (yeah... look it up). The idea he's the puppet of literal evil and his victims were the fodder for an army could be turned into a bang-up critical examination of the character.
Well, that is of course constantly changing dependend on the writer with the Anti-hero-angle beeing the most consistent - as in: In our world that wouldnt work, but in the Marvel universe it needs such a kind of beeing. Of course, his methods and morality are also constantly changing - sometimes he just murders everyone even remotly guilty, sometimes he does go for maximum efficiency and explicitly stalks mostly those escaping the law with money and connections- again, in the Marvel universe every crime is connected to the supermafia. In that case, I could be ok with that, it would be a case of his actions beeing at least helpfull, if still not great - after all, he IS a traumatised insane killer.
So yeah, a story with him as clearly shown as evil would work - except he is massivly popular even with those not part of the asshole-groups you mentioned. And "the man making the hard decisions rather than having those idealistic morals that dont work" IS popular in comics. Of course not in real life, where this wouldnt work - because the Joker wouldnt escape, supercriminals that murdered entire cities and gotten turned in would get secured, organised crime would be combatted on all parts not just with force and most of the medium-level supervillains could be taken care of by the police/the military... But of course that doesnt make an interesting story.
I personaly like a sympathethic punisher - if they dont idolize him. As the guy that takes care of the worst of the worst, since normal crime can be beaten by Spider Man and Daredevil and so on. A guy that doesnt looks down on those, but admires their strength of character and where the problems with his methods are shown and he goes out of the way to minimise them.
MY gripe here is how the whole "hell"-thing makes no sense. I know hell is flexible in comics - but it PUNISHES evil. Yeah, the punisher did hells work - because hell is a just entity. If he killed innocent people that wouldnt help hell. And the literal forces of evil arent strengthend by people going into hell. That would be a ridicolous design flaw. If all those people he killed went into hell, than he would have done by definition good work.
Well, it depends on continuity/writer really. One core bad concept the punisher represents is the simple idea that his stick would work in real life - after all he deals with real life type bad guys. Or that it would be as simple as some books put it - a guy with a gun kills the bad guys - done, why so complicated? Now, how this is implemented of course shows how well it works. For example if the book - like many comics that deal with vigilantes - more or less imply that this only works because this isnt normal crime, this is literally the worst of the worst supermafia thing you only see in comic books thats no problem. And of course its also highly dependent on how he interacts with the rest of the normal world. I would argue that the kind of punisher character that more or less despises the normal heroes for not doing things "his way" and how they are weak and whatever - well, that would be a villain. The kind that just kills every last criminal he finds - villain. NO process of law, no consideration of any motives, no measures to avoid collecteral damage, just sparking up gang wars without any idea for long term fixes - at best he is simply deluded. And with some writers that does spread those toxic concepts because they seem to actually believe that shit works. Hell, look at Frank Millers Batman books and holy terror for another comic book with just such ideas implemented.
but of course the kind we see in some recent imprints - that carefully considers what he does and tend to go only after those the law misses and cannot catch as well as actually trying to maximise effect rather than maximise kill count, that would constitute an anti-hero.
Frank is the type of Villain that thinks they are the hero when they really aren't, at this point it's literally impossible for him to not have killed some one who wouldn't even be considered for death row based on how small their crime is and the only reason he hasn't killed an innocent person yet is because the writers say he hasn't when really he should have as he doesn't really look into the back grounds of everyone he murders.
Sure you could argue he only kills in self defense in those cases as most of the time the people he murders are fighting back, but really when you see The *Punisher* walk in with a trench coat full of guns he is practically forcing any person with even the smallest parking ticket or drug charge to try and kill him because he is a very well known murderer. It would be like trying to argue it was self defense for breaking into some ones home and shooting them when they move for a baseball bat or something.
This is actually something that this comic could instantly fix, if not in a smaller way instead of changing Franks whole back story. Give Frank a super natural ability from the very start to sense who has committed a crime worth hurting/killing them and bam, you can explain away any possibility that he killed an innocent person.
Though honestly I would love to see a story line where Frank legit kills a completely innocent person with no cop outs or rewrites and has to deal with that weight, does he turn himself in and accept his own punishment or would he do it himself just like any other villain? This seems like a really good story concept and if it has been done before I'd love to know the comic title so I can see if they do it justice.
Well, technicly you are correct - but keep in mind that the Hulk also never killed one - and than he did. And than he did, but not so many. And than he killed tons of people constantly. That changes and the stories seem to simply ignore the previous ones or write them out. There have been stories with the punisher beeing ridicolously carefull in his planning - something I found to make the most sense. I mean - if a gungho moron could find and arrest those criminals, so could the police. But actually looking after those they cant take care of and than killing them - that would make for a pretty good anti-hero. Someone that understands himself as a means of last resort and understands the gravitas of his situation.
Of course than there are the comics in which there is simply a ridicolous number of incredible bad people running around freely somehow that the punisher of all people is able to kill. Marvel universe does have a lot of slavers, rapists and superorganised psychopaths ones the punisher is close by.
But I agree, that in the mayority of cases there are a lot of goons he just doesnt care that dont deserve that. However, I would still state "anti-hero" rather than "villain". Not every anti-hero has to be sympathethic. Fighting the bad guys is enough qualification. A bit like Rorschach - totally nuts, sure, but still anti-hero. Of course, just like Rorschach, the universe - or in Rorschachs case the fandom - tends to be portrayed as making him correct, even if they arent supposed by either logic or in the latters case also the creator.
But I do really like the idea of such a "crime-sensor". Like I said, I prefered a punisher that thinks about his actions over one that just thinks "bad-guys. maximise kill-count". I would maybe make him like Doomguy
in the latest release. Essentially just doing his thing, than whatever angle is supposed to be doing that gives him the powers to do his job and allows him to do the same shit - maybe with enhanced durability or infinite ammo, but the same overall style.
0:59- Let's just hope that FrankenCastle doesn't get adapted to the Punisher series on Netflix.
I've seen Rob Liefeld's illustrations of Captain America, and WOW, were they terrible done.
6:41- I actually liked the new Mummy movie, but I agree that there are some weird stuff in it, like the inclusion of Dr. Jekyll and Tom Cruise seeing the ghost of his dead friend, ala An American Werewolf in London.
Nice use of the clip from AT4W: The Movie.
10:49- ...Did this suddenly become a comic book version of The Omen?
12:51- If this were the Marvel Cinematic Universe, those weird guns would most likely be a blaster made from reversed engineered Chitauri tech.
17:32- I was also just thinking of Constantine.
The revelation of this whole mini-series is almost One More Day levels of stupid.
13:33- And suddenly, it has become a comic book version of the Brad Jones film, "Paranoia."
The plot sounds interesting for a What if but not a canon plot. Also how did they retconned this plot from the canon later?
like this
nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/punisher-MK-04182018.png
courtesy of garth ennis, from "welcome back, frank"
EvilHenchman but, does that mean it's still canon?
I'd say since ennis acknowledges purgatory, it is still canon for "welcome back, frank", matt fractions' "punisher: war journal" from 2006 and the remender run that started in 2009 during "dark reign" and culminated in frankencastle, since these are all set in the main marvel 616 universe.
it's probably not canon for:
a) garth ennis' long run on the punisher/punisher max and jason aaron's following run on punisher max because these are explicitly set in their own little universe.
b) any run after frankencastle, because greg rucka's run on the character, while explicitly set in the 616 universe, is also a reboot (though not explicitly so) that makes frank castle a gulf war veteran, not a vietnam veteran. rucka's punisher is also notably younger than old frank from before the reboot. (even though it could be argued that that reboot was not needed, since at the end of frankencastle, remender has frank resurrected and rejuvenated via magic.)
who would've guessed that the punisher's comic history could be so convoluted, eh? and it's all rather recent, too. funnily enough, it's also one of the most consistent, qualitywise. all of those runs are great.
"Where he purchesed those?"
I see what you did there.
Angels named Gadreel can`t catch a break in "Supernatural" or "Punisher",it seems.
Harbinger of Jenova TBH, nobody can catch a break in Supernatural.
26:07
Frank Castle is well-versed in the weapons triangle.
I finally get to correct the chain gun/minigun mix-up without it being out of date!
A minigun uses multiple rotating barrels to achieve higher rates of fire for longer periods without damaging the weapon from the hot gasses that propel the bullets. Even at a tenth of the rate of fire, you can still get a modern assault rifle cherry red with a few hundred rounds. Heck, dedicated machine guns are designed with easily swapped barrels because sustained fire will damage them at even a conservative 450 rounds per minute with time. Even with the extra barrels in use though, a mini-gun is still rather prone to breakdowns, though not as much as it was.
A chain gun on the other hand, is a single barrel chain-driven weapon famous for reliability.
10:04 Shortly after jumping off the window, Tauriel could be overheard asking why does it hurt so much.
OK, so when do we get Frankencastle?
Well first there needs to be no pieces between the rook and the laboratory...
this is a pretty good constantine...er....spawn.....wait no...punisher? story-line. seriously this is a perfectly fine story for any magical character (especially one particularly involved with a heaven/hell area of magic) but it really does make no sense for punisher. if i were marvel I would just retcon all of this into a new character that was non-punisher and still let it go on.
Hellstorm was right there!
Maybe they really wanted to make an amalgam with John Constantine or Spawn.
Given it was the 90's, those guns are far more realistic than any gun over at Image.
The best art teachers always say "you don't make mistakes just happy accidents" thou sum times you make a happy mistake.
So he died then came back from the dead with mysterious powers and now he hangs around in an alley where he decides over the fate of the downtrodden... so they basically made him Spawn?
this whole thing is a freaking shark jump
Its torpeding over the shark
"He's doing it with magic guns! Where'd he purchase those?!"
I see what you did there.
You made me actually laugh when you said, to be perfectly Frank, you made me laugh
YESSSSSSSSSS! I've been so hoping that you'd get to review this one day!
I kinda like that the bar is called "Milton's" Cool reference, given the story.
They should have had this version of Punisher team up with Ghost Rider.
Taylor Gibson or the Punisher become Ghost Rider
I have this comic. I remember loving it as a kid. Of course, that was the time I loved anything and everything Punisher.
Two weeks until the 500 episode can't wait!
I think part of the reason this came out is that Marvel really didn't know what to do with Frank at the time. Mike Baron's highly successful run was basically aping the low budget action movies of the 80s and early 90s that were already kinda of on their way out. He was basically writing a mini-Canon film each month. Chuck Dixon's run seriously leaned into the gimmicks of the 90s (Including a crossover story that was basically "Reign of the Supermen: But The Punisher.") After that we had a new series by John Oestrander where the gimmick was Frank was basically infiltrating a mob family to destroy organized crime from within. It was an interesting idea but dropped quickly and the book was basically left spinning it's wheels. The Punisher was oddly enough in a position sort of like where Shang-Chi was after the Kung Fu craze died down or Luke Cage after Blackploitation wasn't a thing.
10:35 "Surprisingly, less self-righteous after taste than I expected."
My magic pockets are full of muffins... so many muffins.
Yeah, demons, crosses, angels, etc. Um… when I think about The Punisher, this is not what I would think. 😳
You still have the coat! That makes me so happy!!!
Buffy!