The Role of the False Self in Narcissism
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2022
- Dr. Ettensohn discusses the protective false self, highlighting its origins in childhood relational trauma and its role in maintaining narcissistic grandiosity. He also discusses important related issues including the role of grief in reconnecting with authentic self experience.
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References:
References:
Johnson, S. M. (1987). Humanizing the narcissistic style. New York: W.W. Norton & Co.
Kernberg, O. F. (1970). Factors in the psychoanalytic treatment of narcissistic personalities. Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association, 18, 51-85.
Kernberg, O. F. (1974). Further contributions to the treatment of narcissistic personalities. International Journal of Psychoanalysis, 55, 215-240.
Miller, A. (1979). Depression and grandiosity as related forms of narcissistic disturbances. International Review of Psycho-Analysis, 6, 62-76.
Winnicott, D. W. (1960). Ego distortion in terms of the true and false self. In: The maturational process and the facilitating environment. New York: International University Press.
Winnicott, D.W. (1974). Fear of breakdown. International Journal of Psycho-analysis, 1, 103-107.
Music: www.bensound.com
#npd #narcissism #mentalhealth #mentalhealthawareness #psychology #healing #falseself #psychoanalysis #psychologist
I will remove comments that are abusive to any individual (including myself) or population. This includes comments that are abusive toward pwNPD.
This is so heartbreaking. I just ended a relationship with a man I thought I loved very deeply only to realize he has NPD. I vaccilate between anger and compassion. I hope he gets help and finds the self he's been missing.
It’s such vindication. I cried everyday for 11 years. (I called it organized crying. ) The consequences of stuffing my feelings was seeping into every corner of my life. Abandonment and betrayal wounds were so deep.
I cried an ocean. I found a therapist who I sat with for two hours a week and cried for these last five years. Recovery is a gift.
As an autistic person, this video is wayyyy too relatable.
If you're autistic - and your parents don't know it & are more focused on social status / superiority complexes, yeah, you aren't allowed to be that true self
I have npd and this was the most enlightening thing I have heard. It is spot on.
Thanks for your feedback. I’m glad to know it matches your experience.
How do we fix ourselves I have really hurt alot of people
The therapy suggested by today's psychology is not sufficient, too slow and not guaranteed to bring positive results and it is highly unlikely that one can find such a therapist who is willing to work with so much compassion, professionalism and honesty at the same time maintaining his/her own self intact and unaffected by relationship interactions with the narcissist. All in all, this whole project is a very very long shot. The best immediate way to heal is to be spiritual in the true sense. Without getting affiliated with any organized religion.
@CassandraSchuback-ro9qh The therapy suggested by today's psychology is not sufficient, too slow and not guaranteed to bring positive results and it is highly unlikely that one can find such a therapist who is willing to work with so much compassion, professionalism and honesty at the same time maintaining his/her own self intact and unaffected by relationship interactions with the narcissist. All in all, this whole project is a very very long shot. The best immediate way to heal is to be spiritual in the true sense. Without getting affiliated with any organized religion.
@aldoviroo how do I fix me I have hurt everyone
This channel was recommended to me by a support group of self aware recovering folks with NPD as the one they feel is most accurate and doesn’t promote the stigma. I had questions about my partner with what might be NPD, but is undiagnosed. They were right and I feel so much compassion for him now and the information is so comprehensive. As wronged as I’ve been by a few with this disorder I really can’t help but feel a sense of compassion and/or release of anger towards them. This is probably why I attract the same people but whatever. I am grateful to have found a valuable resource that takes everyone’s experience into consideration and respects all people involved with those suffering from NPD.
Thanks for letting me know that you find the channel helpful. 🙂
This one made me cry…
❤️
You feel. It feels good to have a compassionate human care. So good it hurts.
I've always described my experience as having died as a child and all that's left is this shell. I have been told by one close friend that they've seen me try to mourn my childhood, then tear up the photo album I was paging through. I often wonder who I could've been if I didn't grow into who I am. How you describe it is very accurate
But, I do have a question. How realistic is the idea that we can heal from truly mourning that? A common theme brought up in our communities is that we don't have an inner child, but a dead one. People in treatment for years, just don't get the idea of loving ourselves for who we are. It feels so foreign. I can't imagine feeling okay just.. being. And not hiding myself. Cause it feels like there's nothing there. I've taken the strategy of trying to be okay being hollow, and propping up my self esteem with altruistic gestures that are acceptable.
I really respect and admire your work. So I hope this doesn't come off as disrespectful. But is there anything there really to salvage? Or do we just have to adapt our behaviors to be prosocial? I want to believe that I can be "Cured" but I can't imagine what that would even look like. I feel broken, defective and weak on the inside. And realistically I know I am. But not showing that to the people in my life feels like all I can do. Honestly what can we expect from our healing? I've been in therapy for years, what can I really expect to be the outcome? It just feels like adapting
Either way, i really appreciate your content. I hope you keep it up
That describes so much of my experience as well…wish you healing
@@mac1291 Same to you! It's not a pleasant thing to experience haha
I think there's a big focus on metaphors.
The inner child is dead, long live the adult you.
In my opinion, it's very important to just accept the situation, what happened in the past and what we are inside right now.
You have a whole life to fulfill by yourself, and raising yourself again as if you were a child, your own child for whom you wish the best and want him to be really who he wants to be, not what you "expect" from him.
You can have another inner child, raise one.
Good luck.
One of my favorite quotes by Winnicott is, "It's a joy to be hidden but a disaster not to be found." We can't discover ourselves until we are discovered by another person. Our self experience is fundamentally relational. Raise a child in a closet and shove food under the door and you won't end up with anything resembling a functional human being. We emerge as selves from a relational matrix. The relational matrix that produces pathological narcissism is one in which the child cannot develop an identity that is grounded in spontaneous, authentic, and (perhaps most importantly) mutually recognized and validated feeling states. The child adapts to the parent's emotional needs by burying their own. Over time, they establish a self that is disconnected from their own center; based on a complex sort of role play instead of honest emotions.
I think it is possible to re-establish the connection to spontaneous authenticity, but it must be accomplished within a new relational matrix in which authentic feelings are "discovered" by the patient and therapist, very much in the same way that good parents help their children make those discoveries.
The recipe for healing narcissistic wounds in therapy is simple but also highly specific. Since these issues are the product of faulty relational experiences, the main vehicle for healing is the therapy relationship itself. The goal is to help "find" (to use Winnicott's language) the patient. This is largely accomplished through patience, unconditional positive regard, gentle challenges to grandiose defenses when necessary, and the therapist's firm grounding in his/her own humanity. The main tool is the use of well-timed empathically attuned interpretations. This is sort of the grown-up version of something more basic called marked mirroring. Marked mirroring is something that most of us do naturally with children. It involves first mirroring of the child's emotion, followed by a slight modification. For example, a mother might first frown at a crying child before quickly replacing the frown with a concerned look. This simple interaction pattern helps the child first identify their own feeling by looking a the parent, and then provides a possible solution that relies on the emotional resiliency and resources of the mother - something the child lacks. Therapy for narcissism is really a kind of re-parenting of a sort that helps the patient "find" their own feelings while slowly internalizing the therapist's resources and abilities to turn something scary/overwhelming/terrible into something good.
Healing is a long, slow process that slowly builds momentum in therapy until a sort of critical mass is reached and suddenly the patient possesses resources that weren't there before.
tl;dr: There is always potential to establish a connection to what is true inside of yourself, but it takes two people. One of them must be in a position to provide unswerving patience, positive regard, and empathically attuned interpretations.
So sad. It breaks my heart, my ex is like this. I hope she wants to talk to me in the future. 😢
This is amazing. So validating. Unfortunately, so little is out there like this. I have always felt like the living dead, except that it never ends. Thanks you for using the words that really describe the tragedy that occurred. So many will talk about narcissists as if they are just “woe is me”-exact words from a therapist…but truth be told, we have a tremendous amount of pain that we can’t face and that always causes one to focus on their pain until it is fully validated.
One thought on finding a therapist. I think it’s also important to state that finding a competent therapist to treat NPD when your not making lots of money is near impossible. I just get tired of hearing people say “just get help” - we want to think all the solutions are there but I wish people would be honest about the dearth of help and how even good therapists are so condescending and dismissive of NPD
I hear you regarding how hard it is to find a therapist. And therapists are expensive. In the US, the mental health care system is broken. Psychologists undergo many years of training but insurance won't reimburse at a high enough level and requires numerous hours of extra (uncompensated) work just to process billing. Lots of therapists (myself included) end up going private pay with a few pro-bono or reduced fee slots because it is simply impossible to sustain a practice using insurance.
If you are looking for a therapist, my suggestion is to find someone who is affiliated with a local psychoanalytic society or organization. If you don't live near a major city, there is likely one in your state and most clinicians nowadays can work online. I know psychoanalytic models have gotten a bad name. I'm not talking about Freudian analysts here. The modern relational approach is well articulated and also has increasing empirical support. Analytic therapists are much more likely to understand narcissism. They will be able to spot and work with self-object transferences and will likely have a more nuanced understanding of how to work within a therapy relationship to encourage characterological transformation. Unfortunately, they are also often more expensive. That being said, many will have low fee spots in their practice. Ask if they do, and ask for a referral to a colleague if they don't. Best of luck.
@@healnpd I only saw this now. Thank you! I found a therapist thankfully that specializes in NPD though it’s very expensive.
@@mac1291do you find it helpful? How has the journey of healing been?
I fret I only knew negative demoralizing parents. They switch. One day the enabler, the next the malignant narcissist.
I don’t know if I’m either. Life sucks. Pain changes people.
After being devalued over a prolonged period of time, and then abruptly discarded,by someone who completely had my heart, I was confused, stunned, enraged and incredibly sad, but since learning about NPD I feel compassion for my narc ex , the feelings she tried to dump on me were absolutely horrible, this is heavy content
I can't say how much I appreciate your videos. Like others, I've had my concerns about being a narcissist dismissed and have frequently encountered really unempathetic depictions of narcissism just about everywhere else. I really resonate with what you describe--sometimes to the point I feel very sad afterwards--and plan on reading your book. Thanks for your help.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I am glad to know the videos resonate. Feeling sad for our own pain and loss is a very important part of beginning to heal.
I’m currently healing from narcissistic abuse and I’m a empath but my other sister has got NPD. We, as a family experienced similar dynamics in household but we all turned out very differently. I believe that people with NPD and empath comes from childhood trauma. I have degree of empathy for people with NPD as it wasn’t your fault but many empaths struggle just as much too. So please don’t give up on hope to get better! Thank you ❤
3:45 “someone who wasn’t hers”that feeling hurts so bad. Like being disowned for being a human. I was constantly disowned for things that everyone else could do. Have late homework? Disowned. Complain? Disowned. Get a B? Not worthy of receiving love, disowned. Have an opinion or disagree with parent? Disowned. I am now a walking mirror of what i perceive others want, with no backbone, who desperately wants love. Ok that was a lot.
You’re excellent in helping me understand NPD . It’s a tragic disorder. Hurt people hurt people.
Glad to know you find the channel helpful!
I had realisations (having "died" in the sense of living a false self/life) of this type last year, in 2023. I noticed that for a quartet of a century, almost 26 years, I lived to make my parents "proud".
I had denied my actual self with all my "flaws" and "weakness" in their presence...
Well, I tried to talk to them resulting in a series of fights and not understanding eachother, to say the least. Upsi.
I seem to have a style of character, not a disorder, thankfully, but the feelings described here of course resonate with mine. And yes, you can "heal", be "reborn" as your true or at least truer self.
Example: I'm still a "collector" of smiles, hugs, compliments and loves/lovers, but I am more contious about it and kinder to myself (and as a result to others) and am able to process "emotional warmth" as well as "rejection" and "inner cold" much better than I did before.
Thank you for a clear description of the developing false self. I grew up in functional atmosphere lacking love and have lived with the consequences of this. It was more important to get things perfectly right than to be authentic. So sad the loss of childhood that affects the adult's life.
It can be such a loss. I wish you well.
My late parents adopted me. They had bonded well with a baby they had hoped to adopt, who was taken away after six months. A few months later, I was given to them. My poor Mum said how ugly I was compared to the original girl, and my Dad by then had not wanted to adopt, but to see if nature gave them a baby. His rages and verbal and physical attacks on me were profound. I left home at fifteen, had a series of very abusive relationships. Had five children. So many complexities. Eventually found a few brilliant people who "saw" me, and the long path to healing happened, happening. Never give up!!! Thank you for your work.
It sounds like you’ve really been through a lot. My best to you on your journey of healing. 🫡
im sorry for your early childhood, you didn't deserve that
I really appreciate this compassionate approach to understanding narcissism. It’s easy to be angry at them, but that’s only part of the healing process.
They know how to hide behind this false self, surrounding themselves, with their own deception and falsehood, spreading numerous lies, to deceive the world, of their own wrong doing
Thank you so much for this empathy and insight. I have not been diagnosed but I strongly suspect I am a narcissist. I have always been told how nice and warm I am, in truth it was all compensatory due to the deep shame I felt. I felt I had to earn the right to live by being as good as humanly possible. I have improved steadily in the past 3 years, less delusion, maladaptive daydreaming, better reality testing; mainly due to a combination of ifs and somatics Ive been experimenting with on my own. I need to see a professional though, because I cant resolve my relational issues by myself. I'm still grieving the life i could have lived and the person i could have been, but I am hopeful.
Thank you again, I wish there were more mental health professionals like you.
this sounds very much spot on to someone i used to love till he pushed me away... now i only hope to heal and live what little time i have left on this earth. and i hope he can find happiness someday some how with some one because theres no way humanly possible that i could ever make him happy... i wish you and him the best because everyones life is precious and i want us all to heal and be happy better people... i hope and pray theres a chance for us all eventually.
I am diagnosed NPD and I completely relate to your comment. I have also been told how nice and warm I am. It's all an act. It's like I run an AI operating system designed specifically to earn accolades and avoid rejection. Deep down I feel empty, angry and reliant on approval through the eyes of the other. My childhood was appallingly traumatic. I don't know how to change or if there's any core self inside that would be worth salvaging. Otherwise, my NPD is fairly prosocial, although there is no love in my life.
I can't begin to express how happy i am to have found your channel, when i express my concerns of having this disorder nobody takes me seriously.. this gives me such great ground to stand on and where to begin healing. Thank you!
You are very welcome. Thanks for watching!
I realized about a month ago that my mother by all criteria is most likely an undiagnosed narcissist. I've since been alternating between grief and anger - grief at her loss at her family's hands, loss of my relationship with her, that my lifelong interactions with her have been with a shell, grief in the brief moments I see a lost little child inside her before the shell closes up again. Feeling lost, as she's going through years of therapy, and still stuck in denial about her behavior and her dismissal of emotion and relationships, which I know are only going to worsen as she ages. I don't want to abandon her, but I don't know what to do.
So do you believe it is possible for people with NPD to build a real self? I know Vaknin is controversial, but he adamantly states that there is no real self under the false one, and that true healing isn't possible, only behavioral modification. That the cognitive distortions will always be present to one degree or another.
I would be interested to hear your opinion on that.
🎉absolutely stunning and beautiful words to describe many psychologically and physically abused children. I get discouraged when we are still insisting that children are resilient and able to bounce back. They aren’t. Which is why foster kiddos are usually harder to raise…it’s unconscious relational trauma. When are we going to fix our children’s help system! As Gabor Mate describes between need for attachment and then authenticity, between this injustice felt, (I cannot think of the right words) many become addicts.
I think we also have to consider how things, and not just care givers, can cause such damage. A friend of mine, who has had a very lamentable life, has been so damaged by the very strict religion he was brought up with. He is gay, and the catholicism he grew up in was aggressively condemnatory. He told me that he used to go round switching off lights in his house so that god wouldn't see him and know he was gay. Needless to say, he developed a gargantuan false self and has very severe narcissistic traits. It really is a tragedy. He's a stranger to himself.
Yes, this is a good point. I tend to use “caregiver” as shorthand but the “early care environment” or early social environment would probably do just as well.
@@healnpd it's interesting - I heard another UA-cam channel describe that kind of oppressive religion as akin to "a bad parent". I guess as well that if you are in that kind of environment as a kid, your parents will be too
@@th8257 this has been my experience as well. god was a kind of surrogate parent for me because my parents were so neglectful. in the end, becoming as devout as i did only served to amplify my shame and strengthen my false self
I'm just like your friend. I grew up catholic. I was rejected by my entire family from a very young age for being effeminate. On top of that my father was almost totally absent and my mother, when not busy screaming at me for being too girly, used me as a therapist as she cried about how we didn't have enough money for food or how my dad never loved her. Her moods were unpredictable and I never felt safe for one second in that house. At school I was nothing but a sinner to the catholic staff and a faggot to my peers. By adolescence I had so shut myself off from the world that quite literally all I had were my grandiose fantasies keeping me alive. At 33, I now appear somewhat well adjusted, but it's just a mask. I am empty inside, obsessed with myself and my reputation, unable to feel love, and I still silently suffer from rageful sensitivity to criticism and maladaptive grandiose fantasizing. I disgust myself. But the world only knows me as kind, charming, funny and fashionable. I don't know how to become whole.
I had this feeling for so long, that pain, that grief.
But now I also see the amount of cognitive problems , negative patterns of thinking, avoidance, difficulty to cope with reality, which makes It more difficult , as least in my case
It is so profound that what I you are saying. So good to accept the grief for my narcissistic injury. ❤
I had to behave like someone that she thought was an ideal boy and if I was not behaving like that boy , a very clear message was given to me that there is something wrong with me, and that I may need a shrink. The boy that I was made to feel inferior from , later in life couldn’t pass US medical licensure exam and would come to me for advice , but irrespective of the school grades , my self esteem had already been destroyed as good grades did not change my mothers opinion of me and I ended up with two long relationships with covert narcissists who completely ruined my life , and I never saw the red flags as I was used to see them as green flags and it was only when things blew up on my face and they dropped their masks
Thank you ❤️❤️❤️
So true. 😢❤
I'm sorry your mother did that to you. That wasn't likely an isolated incident, but very isolating and lonely. HUGS!!!
Just within the last year I've had this awareness of feeling dead. There have been present day factors that would be reason for that, but I already identify with so many traits of narcissism that it makes sense and I actually feel it that my childhood factors in for the most of it.
I related a lot to your story about the high dive and your mother's reaction, only in my situation, it was swimming lessons and my father. He was the one who took me to my swim lessons at the age of 4. I struggled with them in the beginning. It scared me to open my eyes under water so at first I didn't do it when the teacher asked me to. Another problem I had was trust when the teacher would tell me to float on my back. At that age, I didn't understand the buoyancy of the human body and I'd panic in that position.
After the lesson, if I hadn't done what the teacher asked, (out of fear) my father would be very cold to me. He'd gather our stuff from the grass, not say much to me, then proceed to walk really fast ahead of me, out of the swim club to the car. This would leave me to run (which you're not supposed to do on the concrete at swim clubs) to catch up to him, still wet, towel around my shoulders and carrying my flip flops, to catch up to him.
Years ago, (as an adult) I was talking to my mother about this and that's when I she told me that my father didn't know how to swim at that time either.
Hearing that was almost the same kind of feeling I had when I was about 11 years old and came home to find my little sister's training wheels back on her bike after being removed. My father had refused to do that for me when I had wanted him to when I was 5 or 6.
Damn, I had already been thinking about some other stuff and feeling sad this morning. This video jogged some memories that added to it. I'm going to do my best to feel the grief today.
This did help me understand false self better, how it develops and how that plays out for me.
Oof. Sorry for your struggles. ❤️
Woow, you explained without judgement or anger, but with compassion.
Amen. It seems like they kind of know that they need to grieve, but fight tooth and nail NOT grieving -- for years.
It is SO painful to grieve, maybe an amputation is less painful (not interchangeably, but comparitively speaking). It is required for healing, however the pain and memories can make it almost impossible for many. It can really be such a sad, mournful waste. Kind of like, "Damned if you, and damned if you don't". At 67, finally starting to feel my worth, loving life, value my peeps after a life of incredible pain, doubt and mistakes. Don't give up y'all. YOU are worth it, not those sh*ts who told you you weren't....
I love your explanation, so kind, compassionate and real. Thank you
Thank you so much ❤
Your content is fantastic, it's helping me understand these concepts (like a false self) so much better than I did before. I've watched all your videos and now ordered you book now too. It's so hard to find great content like this on narcissism, mostly it's all quite negative and depressing. I can't wait to see your future videos and I hope it finds a wider audience!
Thanks for your comment! I hope you find the book helpful.
Thanks for that. Fab. 👌
You bet!
I really like your content from most other channels like this. They make narcissist as completely hopeless and have to be written off. Now, some people may have to do this to protect themselves, but there's hope for the person suffering that can change.
I like your intro music Dr Ettensohn. Very soothing!
Thanks, your channel has given me a different, more accurate perspective on narcissism
Your message is very helpful, thank you.
You are so welcome
Brilliantly presented, and spot on 💥
Thanks ☺️
A long time I felt like that patient who felt she had died in infancy. My god mother reassured me she is still in there so that saved my life.
This is a great channel with amazing information presented in a very different way from everything else on this topic. I sincerely hope that you keep creating content
Thanks! I have been a bit sidelined by other responsibilities the last few weeks, but I 100% intend to keep making content.
Thanks once again. Although not the most fun fact to me, I use a false self almost everywhere, and have a very very hard time letting it go.. and I know i need therapy so that's what i'm working on.. it's tiering and suddenly I had almost forgotten who I am 🙈😵💫
eventually this guy is going to make me break down and cry! tears of relief that i FINALLY found a channel that doesn't...demonize these individuals AND discourages people from having anything to do with them. I'M ENCOURAGED! (gonna change the title of my ENCOURAGING playlist on this subject.)
I think that all this growth is important for human development. I also think that’s we would always be given some type of dysfunction because NO one is perfectly developed in the first place
I asked my mom if she loved me - she said she'd love me more if had better marks at school. From then on I understood that 'I am' only what the numbers say about me.
I was raised by a malignant narcissist (father) and a passive enabler (mother). I am fascinated by your explanations of the origins of narcissism and your efforts to encourage a different way of viewing narcissists. I do think it would be helpful if you could acknowledge the damage that narcissists can do, particularly to their children. In my own case, my father's narcissism was combined with dark triad characteristics like deception and sadism, so this was a particularly toxic environment to grow up in. Perhaps he could have improved with treatment, but it would have been a better outcome for us children if we had been removed from the home.
If I survive, it will be in large part because I watched this video
Yeh, what my mother needed from me was that I be no trouble
Im amazed at the depth and understanding of this subject your talking about, having a mother with strong narcissistic side and then adopting some of them myself in life this is extremely gratifying, cathartic and eye opening. Your videos are what I think are the very best videos on narcissism I have seen. I dont think we can treat these issues without having empathy for ourselves as children and understanding the sheer complexity of our human existence in those early year's. I dont like the narrative that is being spun upon people with cluster B personality disorders, it feels so dehumanizing. Please know your work is so important to me.
Thanks for your feedback. It means a lot to me to know you find my channel helpful. 🙂
@@healnpd :D
Often see myself as a failed narcissist. Your description of the false self really hits home with me. Are there any other conditions where a false self is created to protect an individual
@ziganda26 - Thanks for watching. The psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott coined the term ‘false self.’ His conceptualization was not specific to pathological narcissism. In fact, I don’t think he specifically mentioned narcissism at all when discussing the concept (although I might be incorrect about that - he was a prolific writer). So a false self (sometimes called a caretaking self) can be conceptualize independently of narcissism.
Where could I read up more on caretaking self? Many thanks
Doc. I like you. 😊
Thank you kindly
It would be helpful to define true self in this context.
My friend's narcissistic ex is an anti-social person and may have not shown much love to his adult sons since my friend informed me that they were getting into trouble with the law!
I truly believe that this is an experience we all have had, to some extent, given the nature of patriarchy and even civilization itself. Women cannot love and accept themselves unconditionally under patriarchy, so they cannot love and accept their children unconditionally either. If they are being good mothers, according to the standards set forth by their particular culture, they can accept themselves conditionally, and then can accept their children conditionally. But if they are not being good mothers, they cannot accept themselves at all, and cannot accept their children at all. I think it’s a myth that there are any mothers who accept themselves and their children unconditionally. Those mothers probably existed, and were probably even the norm before patriarchy, but they went extinct, so to speak, as patriarchy took hold. And to be clear, a mother who doesn’t seem to care what her child does is not accepting that child unconditionally. They are incapable of accepting their child at all. I think this is sadly the realm we have moved into over the last 60 years(in the west anyway), because women have been pulled in so many directions, they cannot see themselves as good mothers, according to patriarchy. Even if they are SAHMs, they feel like they aren’t good enough and should be making money for their families. The solution certainly isn’t to send women back into the kitchen(if that were even an option, which it is not), but to accept reality as it is. It’s possible, however, that unconditional unacceptance, as I like to call it, may actually be preferable than conditional acceptance, because with unconditional unacceptance, the child doesn’t develop a false self, or as much of one, because there is no use. I guess it’s like horseshoe theory, where the child who is unconditionally unaccepted is more similar to the child who is unconditionally accepted(if such a child exists) than they are to the child who is conditionally accepted.
It's such a sad condition, for everyone involved
Agreed.
Hi Dr Ettensohn, thanks so much for your work. I resonate with this video immensely. Unfortunately what I've found is that it is near impossible to "find a therapist who can walk this difficult path with you." I have had no luck with that. Is. it possible you have any recommendations or suggestions for how one can find such a therapist?
I am planning to do an episode on this topic in the near future. :)
@@healnpd that's great to hear, looking forward!
No wonder you're excited in this one. Sam Vaknin talks about Dual Mothership 🌟
So extremely sad 😢 - no I thought it was the crying one.
One of the explanations of the false self I’ve heard… How can someone who loves a pwNPD get through to them that they love ALL of them, and that ALL of them is worthy of love? Understanding these NPD-related things is helpful, but I’m still at a loss how to get through.
Sad. My ex is going to be 69 this year. Sadly, she has been in denial of her condition. I wish she had found a good therapist who could have helped her.
Therapists claim there is no cure, and narcissists generally wouldn't respect it anyway --it's just a game. If anything they learn to conceal it better and become better manipulators.
❤
What is your success rate for "healing" narcissists? What do they do differently? How long does it take you (with them)?
wow.
Haha. I hope that's a positive "wow." :)
@@healnpd It’s a positive one trust me lol.
Anyone with NPD please go to therapy and get help I was living for a year with a female Narcissist who thought nothing was wrong with her behaviors.She emotionally,fanatically abused me and I't's going to take me a long time to recover and about two years before I can save up for another vehicle.
What about children who are spoiled into entitlement, given praise for nothing in particular and consequently aren't able to identify with the self the parent/caregiver is demonstrating accolades toward? I don't think it's always severe trauma. My mother was overly praised by her mother who was terrified to lose her after her first was stillborn, but her father didn't have a large emotional bandwidth so she felt ignored and dismissed when he really didn't intend to (silent generation). She has all the traits of the dark triad. My childhood and into my late adulthood was decimated by her. She did not experience unrelenting abuse, and it's hard to fathom why she is so far up the scale other than she probably was really, really sensitive and could have been capable of deep feelings before she shut them off early and became vengeful, angry and delighted in causing suffering of others.
When we speak of trauma in NPD, we are generally talking about something called relational trauma. This doesn’t need to take the form of sever or extreme abuse. It can be subtle, chronic, and pervasive in a child’s early experience. Feeling responsible for your mother’s sanity due to her previous loss of a child before you were even born is a form of relational trauma. Children should feel held and supported by their parent, not responsible for them. Such an inversion of the parent-child relationship can interfere with the child’s ability to individuate (that is, to separate psychologically from the parent). Some theories point toward incomplete individuation as the cause of borderline personality organization (I.e. personality disorders). See the work of Margaret Mahler as an example.
@@healnpd That makes a lot of sense! Thank you, you really helped me connect some dots today. Appreciated! Will definitely look into Margaret Mahler.
I wonder too if there is a genetic element in some cases. People in the same family can have such different underlying temperaments and react very differently to the same things.
Yes
@@healnpdindividuation isn t emotional separation w the parent, it s about having the chance to be -come. The emotional connection might never been there.
I'm wrestling with the paradox of accepting and mourning your own death with the hopes of ***maybe**** being able to live some day. Am i misunderstanding something?
Thats me in childhood_ what im still alive
How did the true self die what happened during that very early stage of development?
Can you elaborate on the true self being killed?
Does that mean that there is no way back?
My daughter was overweight from 5 to her adult life. She got severely bullied by peers and strangers. Could that have caused her BPD? Or was it my emotional disconnect from her ( I had post-partum depression and physcosis) and the bullying just solidified her BPD?
I would say the combination.
The false self is your mirror image. Most people have two, some even have 5 ghosts.
I am struggling with a feeling of having a false self. I don't know if it has anything to do with my parents, because I don't recall them ever withholding love from me. I think I am just overly sensitive to rejection from my peers.
I feel the same . Can’t recall parents withholding love from me
Hi, I'm new here. I want to know ur input please. I pressed charges against a narcissist 3 Years ago and he indirectly contacts me occasionally. Sometimes he threatens me and other times he just wants to make his presence known. I have trial in a couple months and I'm going to see him for the first time in years. I know every situation is different but based on your knowledge, I'm curious to know:
1. Am I safe when he gets out of jail and there's no restraining order in place?
2. Does he split me from good to bad and vice versa?
3. Have I made it difficult for him to "separate/individuate" from me since I've abandoned him and "punished" him?
Thanks for watching. I really can’t answer these questions, as they have to do with this person’s individual psychology. My best advice to you is to take appropriate action to protect yourself. This could include talking to law enforcement, an attorney, friends, and family. This does not sound like a safe individual.
What I’d noticed from your experience at the high you I’d that you’d manifested your mother’s fear of being your own hence you couldn’t jump. As for your mother she vicariously wanted to eliminate her fear through you. She in fact didn’t separate from her child. In fact you were fighting against your mother intrusion of your anatomy.
Shalom
Hi Mark, might it be that someone has translated this to Spanish, do you know? Or perhaps you would consider making the script available for translation?
If I still have the script, I will upload it next time I get a chance.
@@healnpd I believe your delivery may carry persuasive power even for one of Latin American culture.
it seems easyer to be dead like not alive than doing the work. and it has been on me since i was a child why would this not be on me.
Please provide evidence NPD can be “healed”. This damage likely happens around 18 months from a not good enough *mother* not caregiver.
The problem I see with this view is that the narc has a schema of always feeling like a victim, as soon as the other person disagrees with them. The narc wants their worldview validated , otherwise they say, they are not supported or validated. As someone dealing with a narc from childhood, their perception of events always makes them victims. The narc will expect or feel entitled to money and other things and if told no, they say it’s because they aren’t supported and they feel like a victim. So this view of them being victims in childhood is highly suspicious to me. I am sure it applies to some but not most. I feel it’s like the narc never outgrows that toddler view of the world where they are the center of the universe. So when they grow up and other people don’t tell them they are the center of the universe, they have a melt down and say they aren’t supported and loved. It is an awful disorder. I agree they suffer but I disagree that it’s because their real self wasn’t validated.
@amylee9 I think you are correct that pwNPD are developmentally arrested and overly reliant on egocentric and reality-distorting defenses. Arrest occurs when the child is not able to successfully negotiate the emotional and interpersonal demands of a given developmental stage, typically because some aspect of the environment makes it impossible to do so. You seem to be leaning toward an idea that some kids are simply ‘bad seeds’, that their immature self-image and reliance on inflexible, reality distorting coping mechanisms is somehow their fault. Children will grow and develop if they are presented the opportunity. They remain stuck when the environment makes growing beyond a certain phase impossible. We are each born with a basic temperament - a way of encountering the world that is hardwired into our nervous system. Some kids are difficult to soothe, some are very sensitive to overstimulation, some are quiet and passive, others are hyperactive and sensation-seeking. A responsive and facilitative environment will adapt to the child, making it possible for them to grow and develop on their natural trajectory. A poor or unresponsive environment will make such growth difficult or impossible. That is a form of relational trauma. It is what produces personality disorders.
Admittedly I didn't go through all of it because of the triggers the video may contain, but: isn't it too strong (not helpful) to describe people as "having died", even if it's in a restricted sense? Also, some parts of the video kinda suggest that people with NPD have no "authentic" feelings, which cannot be correct unless we're again heavily restricting the meaning of that word. Again, it's likely that I've missed some more nuanced bits in the video, but I cannot bring myself to watch it fully right now. Thank you.
Thanks for your questions. I'll try to answer as best I can given the limitations that this is the comment section.
Q: isn't it too strong (not helpful) to describe people as "having died", even if it's in a restricted sense?
A: I think every therapy is different. For some patients, a well-timed interpretation that puts into words (perhaps for the first time in the person’s life) a feeling that some part of them died - or was not allowed to live - can represent a turning point in their process of healing. For others, it wouldn’t make any sense at all to say something like that.
In my experience, grief is a necessary part of the work of recovery. Grandiosity serves as a smoke screen that hides all that has been lost…or was never allowed to come to life in the first place. Beneath the grandiosity, there is an impoverished self - a self that has been wounded either through injury or neglect, or both.
Grandiosity drives the patient to constantly seek reassurances in the form of praise and admiration that their false self defenses are strong and intact. In this way, grandiosity is really about anxiety and fear that the false self will breakdown, exposing the patient to their unprocessed trauma.
In the article referenced in this episode, Winnicott (1974) is saying that fear of breakdown (the anxiety that drives grandiosity) is actually fear of something that has already happened. The mind is trying to gain mastery over a trauma that has already been survived - but that has not been adequately processed.
He writes, “On the other hand, if the patient is ready for some kind of acceptance of this queer kind of truth, that what is not yet experienced did nevertheless happen in the past, then the way is open for the agony to be experienced in the transference….Death, looked at in this way as something that happened to the patient but which the patient was not mature enough to experience, has the meaning of annihilation. It is like this, that a pattern developed in which the continuity of being was interrupted by … failures of the facilitating environment (by ‘facilitating environment’ Winnicott is referring to caregivers).”
Winnicott suggests that caregivers failed to “discover” and delight in the child’s authenticity, and that this failure was a kind of mortal wound that set in motion a course of development away from connection to authenticity and toward identification with a false self. It's not that the patient is *actually* dead, but that these early betrayals were traumatic and experienced by the child as a kind of annihilation. Sometimes, by speaking to the psychological truth of this annihilation, we can help patients to begin to accept an emotional reality necessary for them to begin to grieve. The process of grief allows them to let go of the grandiose strivings and identification with the false self. In time, a stronger connection with the authentic parts of themselves begins to grow and develop.
Q: some parts of the video kinda suggest that people with NPD have no "authentic" feelings
A: I would not say that narcissists have no authentic feelings. Rather, that access to authentic feelings has been impaired through years of relational pressure to behave in an “as if” manner. It’s not that there is NO authenticity in the person. It is more like a natural spring that has been capped, or a river that has been dammed or diverted. As you note in your comment, there are lots of nuances that gets lost in a brief summation of these concepts.
I would say it’s worse than death. It’s a death that never has finality. It’s a a continual death. I appreciate putting the reality into words even if it’s hard to hear that some people are actually suffering that deeply…
@@healnpd Thank you for the prompt and thorough reply, Dr. Ettensohn. I have a question. Is "having died" binary? I mean, is it the case that either you underwent the trauma that disrupted the continuity of your sense of self or you did not? Are some people with NPD more capable of accessing their authentic feelings than some other people with NPD are, i.e., have they strayed not as far on the path into inauthenticity? I guess I'm interested in understanding the relationship between the binary aspect of it and what I perceive to be a continuum.
Thank you very much.
I think disorders of the self exist on a continuum. some are very badly wounded while others less so. This accounts for the rather severe pathology in some individuals with NPD versus others who have narcissistic traits but are otherwise do relatively well. The first episode of this podcast describes that continuum in more detail, as does the episode on vulnerable narcissism vs. BPD.
can I get rid of my false self?
A false self related to NPD? I'm not an expert but I don't think so. NPD is a mental disorder without a real cure. Though I think a person with NPD can learn if motivated better copingskills. For example when threated in the false self...
OMG, to grief and then live again, it is like Jesus story
❤😷
Is it still wrong to expect them to feel empathy? How could anyone not be disappointed in them when they say cruel and twisted things!? Is it fair to treat grown adults like children and appease their every whim and essentially forfeit our own true self. Is it even oossible to heal their trauma past the developmental stage? He is sadistic and I'm afraid of him. He can smile in your face and stab you in the back as soon as you turn around. I dont think you can save someone who delights in their depravity whilst simultaneously trying to convince you they are harmless? What am I really dealing with in this man!?
I don’t think you should treat grown adults like children or try to appease their every whim. That doesn’t sound like a healthy relational dynamic. I think you should set boundaries that feel good to you, regardless of what is going on in the other person’s psychology. Understanding that someone may not have insight into their behavior, or that they may not have a high degree of self control does not mean that you should allow yourself to be mistreated.
Personally I don't fully buy 'early trauma as a source of NPD' narrative. Isn't it possible that some of us were always 'broken'?
I don't think so. As with all mental illness, temperament and genetics plays a role. But I think it really comes down to the early care environment.
I think it is: nuture and nature. So a child with the genes ( = nuture) to develop NPD but with loving and emphatic parents will not develop NPD. It only happens when both (nuture and nature) are there.
@@eelco9547 Agree
I wonder why these social models are taken as fact when we cant even accurtelyl model a drug interaction in a closed system like our bodies.spending 1000s of dollers for a ' friend' to talk too _is just hilarious. Im putting a sign in my front window_ " Friends here for just a doller an hour" lets integrate ourselves in a bugs bunny fantasy experience social model_ pot optional
Jesus, please change the introduction music.
I appreciate your content and I like your voice but could you please use clients instead of patients because everyone has some unhealthy parts inside. use patients is like a jargon but sounds arrogant while using clients sounds more respectful.
@2.A963 - I’ve given that terminology a lot of thought. Here’s a piece I wrote about my choice to use the word patient instead of client: www.drettensohn.com/blog/4-reasons-to-use-patient-instead-of-client
You do not need any external vsludation except God's validation. Narcs ago about hurting people, cheating on their spouses and making go crazy like nothing happened. When you ahow compassion and empathy to them, they look at you as stupid. The best thing is leave them and run. Love them from a very far distance.
Narcissism is a CHOICE. There can be NO JUSTIFICATION for choosing that path.
My mother is a Covert narcissist. So why I am not bocome a narcissist.
You are making new scars to narcissist children... spouses. To people who struggle with pain, but have not chosen the path of hate.
Actually it sounds like you do not know the topic except thoreticaly.
@zandatee - Having a mental illness is not a choice. Pathological narcissism and NPD are forms of mental illness. The people who have these issues suffer, as do those who care about them. It sounds like you also suffered from your relationship with your mother. She had no right to abuse you, nor does anyone have a right to abuse others. But narcissism isn’t just another word for abuse. It is a mental illness that itself is often born from trauma, abuse, and emotional neglect. We are all human beings. I wish you well and thanks for watching.
u make it seem like they look at both sides then choose npd. and u say he doesnt know what hes talking about yet u seem to talk from a place of hatred for them. if u cant see both sides u cant be logical
@healnpd is there very much hope for people with NPD to live healthy, fulfilling lives?
I believe there is, with time and treatment.