Ben Cathro | The "science" behind how the pros clip-in!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 23 тра 2024
- Professional racer, team manager, presenter and all round lover of downhill racing, Ben Cathro, has been giving us the inside line and the pro's perspective on racing for years. So we teamed up with Ben to take a deep dive in to the science (and lack of by some) that goes into clipless shoes and the preferences of the best riders in the world.
Five Ten have worked with the world's leading athletes to develop the best and most winning clipless shoes in the modern history of DH racing. Discover how and why cleat position and having a shoe that is optimised for personal preference can make all the difference.
Featuring Danny Hart, Dakota Norton, PinkBike Racing and Ben Cathro himself, discover how the pro's optimise their shoes for maximum performance.
Discover more about the Five Ten Hellcat and Hellcat Pro at www.adidas.com/fiveten
Follow us @adidasfiveten - Спорт
We are super excited to be working closely with Ben for 2024 making all the videos of all the things 🎉
(opens a MTBing video, notices the music is great... "oh this must be a SleeperCo video", checks comments... YEP)
All the videos on all the things?! There's a lot of stuff on this earth. Geez 😅
I appreciated the edit!! I did. His stuff is usually great but those two clips you guys added when he mentions road & track was effing hilarious.
This is the best news I’ve heard today!
I’d be interested to see what position pro Enduro riders have the cleat position.
Next video?
I betcha anything it's just like the DH crowd, slammed all the way back
Same be great to see what people who pedal to the top do!
Somewhere in the middle
From what I’ve seen on here, Moir runs his slammed back
Great content, as always. It’s something I hadn’t thought about much before. It would be good to have Ben interview a bunch of XC riders on the same subject, as the other end of the off road spectrum. As they have to consider going uphill too, I wonder where they would find the sweet spot.
So i ride flat pedals and all my shoes have two distinctive tread or groove patterns in them from the studs. One on the ball of front of my foot and one just before the middle of my foot. Front pattern is from climbing and middle is from descending. Hence all these DH riders have there clips more to the middle you much more stable
From an engineering/physics perspective, you're spot on.
But! cyclists, regardless of type, are limited by biomechanical considerations!
I confess, I am one of those very uptight X professional road sprinters!
One of the reasons why sprinters position their cleats close to the ball of the foot is to engage the quad muscles. These muscles produce far more power over a short distance, than the glutes.
The glutes will engage more, when the pedal is closer to the center of the foot. But will never produce the power, nor the directional transition of power, through the pedal stroke, as engagement of the quads.
I realise I'm going down a dangerous rabbit hole, so my point is to the exclusion of a lot of other considerations!
My "guess" as to why DH riders prefer to position their cleat in the middle of the peddle is because the ability to control your legs in a bidirectional manner, is better.
Quality video, Ben.
The world needs more, down to earth inquisitiveness....
Other than adding an extra zero, right? :) (10g is 940kg, not 9400)
That road Biker cleat position comment made me chuckle
😂 such a truthful youth remark . 100 percent would have done the same
@bencathro more of this please!
As I have gotten older, I have moved the cleats back as keeping them forward felt like my Achilles tendon was getting overstretch, especially on landings.
Exactly. DH if you are to close to your toes, you have more leverage in your Achilles/calf. Easy.
9:11 The 10g is just a 10x multiplier on your 94kgf. so 940kgf... not 100x. Your 94kg is already at 1g (i.e. 94 kilogram-force), so 10g is just 10x the amount. FWIW, 9221.4 Newtons (SI unit of force).
Dawm , you beat me to it. Was about to say the same thing
Same. Not sure how this error made it through post-production. Otherwise excellent vid! 😊
Yes, beat me to the comment on this one.
Somebody paid attention in math class
Its not a linear force its a torque and therefore you have to multiply force by the moment arm. The longer cleat position changed the length of the moment arm and increased the forces on the calf.
Cannot get enough Ben Cathro in my life. Another great vid!
This was great knowledge and somthing I was actually thing about lately to improve my riding !! Thanks Ban you the man!!
It would be interesting to hear from xc riders and the effect of the cleat position on pedaling dynamics.
Fantastic video! Thank you.
It's nice to see the MFGs FINALLY listening. When I rode clipped in, I had to modify the shoes (Shimano ME7) to allow the cleat to move back a full inch over what the slots allowed out of the box. Was ridiculous. Eventually went to flats, and no longer an issue.
I used to have my cleats in the middle. In an enduro comp with longer stages, my calves were burning. Decided to slide the cleat further back just for a test, and never moved them forward. Then went to ride flats just to keep those bunny hops clean.
Get flats and change foot positions for climbing and descending. It's easy and I've been doing it for close to 3 decades. It works
This is about the pros
Oh, guess what. I’ve been riding spds for more than 30 years and no one really cares. 😂
My shoes won't let that happen, after a few rides they have worn in and you have to have foot in same spot. Or it feels all f'd up
You really did your research, im impressed!
Ben-O, God made you to do exactly what you are doing. You presenting and explaining anything mtn biking is always a great watch and full of good info. Sprinkle in that humor and it's great watching. Keep up the good work.
I feel like I learned something today, while at the same time I was having a good laugh with the interviews! Hats off, again, Mr Lanky Man
Foot to Ground clearance to prevent foot impacts is needed to accommodate suspension and tire compression also can dictate the need for cleats to be rearward; particularly for riders with larger feet, more technical terrain, and/or lower BB clearance or longer cranks. This applies to many MTB disciplines, not just DH. Nice vid.
Wow! That actually made sense :) Thanks Ben!!
Ok, now a video on this topic with trail riding.
Sat here watching even though I run flats but happy supporting Cathro with views!
informative video, that was great!!!
Dang. That force difference between the positions really solidify my choice for a rearward cleat position.
Good data review 👍🏻👍🏻
excellent video
I just tried clips for the first time this year after 30 years of riding flats on all types of bikes. I tried slammed back at first, and I felt like I was fighting my pedals. I ended up more central but most importantly when I got it to where I have it it felt right, It allowed me to stop thinking about my feet and could start thinking about riding.
I think that’s the problem with clipless pedals, you don’t pay attention to your feet. With flats, you must ride through your feet in order to stay on the pedal, or your foot comes off. It forces better technique, IMO.
Danny Hart with the simplest explanation, its what we were taught when guiding in Whistler, and even on my road bike I run them as far back as they go.
I’ve hyperextended my ankles on big hits while running the cleat too far forward.
I never felt safe thinking about being attached to my bike in the event of a crash. I rode flat pedals and had a great time racing. Not sure where the clipless pedals were supposed to improve my riding. Yhis is the late 90s I;m talking about. It's crazy that it's still a thing the rider has to decide. What a classic debate!
I find it very ironic to see this video when I was just considering this now. Forever, I have been riding with the cleat possitioned just behind the ball of my foot and also canted to be just inside from a lateral position. The reason was purely feel. It felt like the bast place. I am a road rider, trail rider, and in my younger days freerider/4 cross racer. In the past few years I have been riding a mix of clipped in vs flat pedals while riding with my son. (he's now 6 and a heck of a rider). But since I ride flats so much and work on skills in that vein I have been thinking of slidding those clips back a bit to still maintain the power for climbing while feeling a bit more agile. So,... this was a very timely video. Thanks for sharing.
Really love Ben he's just amazing 💯
The end of the video just killed me 🤣🤣🤣
A decent convincing piece of advertising. I’m straight off to buy some Helcats. Only Cathro could do that and get me to the end of the video.
Great stuff. I am very interested in a video specifically regarding hellcat pros and crankbrothers mallet dh setup. A lot of pro dh riders use this setup yet there is little info on how they setup their cleats and SHIMS and pin height. What feel are they looking for etc. Ben touched on it with Dakota Norton but he's not running mallets.
it can be tricky with clipless trying to get the height of the cleat and pins to help when you want them to but not implead your foot from twisting to release the shoe from the pedal. I suspect that's why Dak does that to his shoes
I think you'll find that if you're not a pro/racer, modern flat pedals and shoes are a great choice for everyone else. Side note, seen a few non pro riders mess up their ankles being clipped in. Flats allow you to re-position when you climb or descend.
I have been riding clips for years and never had any issues and spent many years on flat pedals each one is fine and it mostly comes down to personal preference. The angle of the cleat is important though if you tend to ride with your toes pointed in or out it can be a little fiddly to get right but once you do your good to go.
was recently watching a bike fit video for road bikes it also suggested cleat position towards back
Amazing content👍. What about the enduro riders, would be great to see if there is any difference between DH and Enduro.
Ben please see what you can uncover in the world of Enduro riders regarding cleats, love the content
Very Interesting Great Vid , I have been a flat pedal guy forever, born from my BMX days Long Long ago , I was thinking of trying clips but I only Ride Trail on my MTB is there any benefit or is it just preference ??? I can see the benefit For DH .
Pedal position will vary based on type of riding. I don’t slam my clips back because I have to actually pedal up hills, unlike DH pros.
I matched my cleats to the overal wear of my fiveten freerides and noticed I was about 66% slammed to the back but not all the way. looking at the shoe and eye-balling it I would have instantly slammed them, glad I checked!
Would be also interesting to talk to Rachel Atherton about where she likes her cleats positioned - whether the leverage had any impact on her breaking achilles tendon.
Good stuff well discussed. I’m wondering about the plates many had between the cleat and the sole. I’ve never seen one. What does it do? Where do they come from?
They are needed with crank brothers pedals as they damage the sole if used without shield. I have them on my SPD as well as a spacer, because otherwise i have to fight rubber contact friction when clipping in/out
The reason you want the cleat generally as far back as possible on the foot, is for stability of the foot through the rotation. It's about levers. The further away from the ankle the cleat is, the more the ankle is going to flex, which is bad.
damn, what a good information
Riding the cleat far forward, makes the Soleus Muscle come into play more. The Soleus contracts and lowers the toes. You dont want that in DH you want to lower your heels, which in turn as you mentioned in the video makes your calf act like suspension.
As someone who dabbles with his MTB simply due to time (I skate, surf, road cycle for fitness)....I didn't know that Enduro and DH riders even clipped in?? No wonder they look so bloody glued to the bikes! I thought it was just good technique of driving their weight down through to the pedals! 🤯 I'm confused..lol
as a road and track cyclist i can tell you that on the track they ride it all the way back and even combine modern clip pedals with og straps. I heard climbers have the cleats forward but not us track and crit cyclistst.
Mountain biking since 94' with mallet cleats as far back as they go, it just feels right. Having cleats forward puts you off balance like you're on your toes.
ben cathro is a crazy nerd... i love it!
The % difference in travel and force are the same if you calculate it right. I've always opted for more proactive travel, particularly since it's faster responding than your thighs. that was a head scratcher to see so many pros off the back.
Still funny. Quirky and informative. But your production value has matured palpably. I like the changes.
If I go back to clips, I’m being drawn towards a shoe that will have the most rearward adjustment, as I want my foot to be close to the position it is on flats
Even us roadies are moving the cleats backwards :) Different reasons, but in general it's more stable, reduces "hot foot" (not a concern for MTB?!) and in many ways reduces the load on calves - which often is not one of the strongest muscles).
I think in general only the people that try to put their cleats way forward are the ones that like "ankling", pedaling with a lot of flex in the foot. And from what I recall, that's mostly for very high cadences and somewhat lower peak torque - some trackies, maybe TTs and climbing.
I use extension plates to mount my cleats 35mm behind the pivot point of my ankle.
Race the bmx with the cleats also all the way back, feels better than all the way front, in the mtb also all the way back feels great and less exhausting as the "calf raise" mention by Hart
Thibault Laly 🤘btw what's the model at 4:52 ?
What is the cleats in the first person
Any idea where Rachael Atherton keeps her cleats? I'd say that would be a relative question to be asked in a most sensitive way.
I actually dremel my slots about 1/4" further back. I like to have my cleats about where they would be on flats.
Great analysis from Cathro as usual! Two things though:
1. Is there a typo where you stated both cleat positions are 30mm distance to achilles heel?
2. Leatt 4.0 clipless has more rearward cleat option than the Hellcats. The most of any shoe I have found.
The 30mm was the distance of anchor point of the Achilles to the base of heel. This It's the same for both as it's the same foot.
@@emc3065 thanks for clarifying! it was a head scratcher for me !
I have always bounced between flats and clips, but I have never found that I can get the cleats far enough towards the cranks, its always felt like I'm hanging half my foot over the outside edge of the pedal and I seem to be the only person I have ever met with that option, so i'd be interested to see if anyone else here has the same issue?
Bowlegged …..it’s much more a problem
Wait, does anyone run their cleats forward?
Also why I’m running Hellcat Pros
which leads to an obvious question - if a good percentage of riders are running full slammed back (and near no one uses full forward), shouldn't the cleat channels be positioned further back?
If you head to 10.43 in the film Ben answers question directly
Paracardium 6. I'll research it, thank you.
My riding shoes developed pitting about the very back of my arch from my foot position on downhill racing courses. An effective clipping mechanism should slide the foot backward in descents and move the foot forward for climbing. I would love to design it but I'm a carpenter. LOL
Edit:
Spring load the cleat to move to furthest back position unless climbing pressure demands a change. simple math with springs and such. so when you sprint the mechanism wants to be bunched at the toe and when you ease off it wants to return back to 2'3 rds of the way to the heal. Make it tunable so riders can set the range of movement they want or even lock out any movement. I hope some engineer reads this. It would be so amazing from my perspective. When your ankle doesn't need to move and the bike is taking all the hit it's a much better ride from my expert riding opinion. Only when you want the extra leverage for climbing does the foot position matter
double edit:
do you make the slide in the shoe or the pedal? Shoe might win if I'm testing ideas
We need a wider shoes fiveten 😢
Try Race Concepts they have a better selection of wider shoes.
Can we address the weakness of the 510 cleat nuts?
First and forevermore shalt thou slam thine cleat full back. Full slammed shall be the cleat position thou shalt use, and the position of the cleat shalt be well slammed. Thou shalt not use use the middle and forward is right out.
I ride & coach enduro/dh and I run my cleats all the way back because...
I can clip in faster if I unclip a foot, than I can in any other cleat position.
Genuinely, that is how I arrived at the more rearward position (and I experimented) - riding really rough terrain, if I pulled a foot out for some reason I wanted to give myself the best chance of getting my foot back in without slowing down or fumbling.
/\ /\ not sure why more riders don't use this logic. Using Leatt 6.0 shoes currently with old Shimano DX pedals.
A comparison with the enduro clips would be interesting.
with 10g forces are only 10x higher, NOT 100 times higher... (so 940kg and 1425kg respectively)
Dear Five Ten, could you please release the hellcat pro clipless shoe in WHITE for purchase? I have wanted a pair every since they were introduced 3 years ago. I'll pay extra. I just really, really want a pair. Thanks for your time.
Leatt enduro 4 had the best cleat channel for enduro riding.
I feel like I am the only advocate for slippery pedals. It is how I learned to ride and how I prefer it 😂
Switching to clips was simultaneously the very best and worst decision I've made on this MTB journey
What is the bad part? Curious to try clips myself
@@mattclarke7 Curious about the worst part as well? I switched about 9 months ago and haven't looked back. Best part is being so much more connected to the bike.
ben. you should adress the fact that as a tall rider with a large foot. the futher back you run your cleat the harder it is to clip out.your toe will bind with the crank in most positions
Why don't shoe manufacturers allow for a wider (more rearward) cleat placement???
Well you answered that at the end of the video
be careful with this setting. it can make more of a difference than just how much force on your tendons. It will change the perceived bike geometry.
I moved the cleats all the way back with the hellcats. TLDR: Bike felt short, hard to "distribute" balance. Moved back to the middle (not front) and i'm happy again.
Really wish y’all would bring back those white clipless shoes.. I think they were hellcats. Basically release the ones that Dak wears.
I must have rewound 1:29 at least 7 times while trying not to laugh out loud and subsequently wake my wee ones.
I like to hit the pipe before I clip in. This way I really don't give it much thought or care if I'm doing it like a Pro or just a clumsy fool. Sometimes I think I'm clipped in but I'm not and still somehow manage to stay on the bike.
I had to abandon the clipless pedals when I got a trail bike. Being physically attached to the pedals midair is horrifying.
Ben has the right answer on positioning- ride flats, you will find your feet further back than on clips. More power, calves are weak!
So give me a 5-10 clipless in the middle please
So if these riders position their cleats are "all the way back," what would happen if I made a shoe with cleat mount slots that went ALL THE WAY TO THE HEEL???
THEN where would you put your cleats??? HUH??!!!!
I've found on long descents that my calves definitely feel it by the end. So moving your foot forward means there's less leverage acting on your ankle, so you get less calf fatigue. Makes sense in the DH world.
How about us bumblers? are we allowed to clip in?
Hmm, why is always one pedal more towards the front wheel and one closer to the rear?
Honestly, don't look into studies about pedalling efficiency, if a good cleat position for DH only, is what you're after..
What I’m hearing is flats FTW
What about Enduro biking?
Well... Looks like i will be moving mine all the way back!
The shoes for clips are the problem. You need to try the Pedalling Innovations Catalyst, for a flat pedal that best solves the problem of foot position.
we could use a wider "q" factor for this reason
So the real question is... Why don't shoe manufacturers bring the channels even further back? Surely if most riders are at the limit, why not explore beyond this artificial limit?
BONKERS!
Does this mean that five ten is putting their cleat slots too far forward?
I have used SPDs since 1991, and I have *never* used that washer/shim/shield thingamabob between the cleat and the shoe, what witchcraft is this?!
I wonder if Rachel Atherton altered her cleat position after blowing up her achilles tendon.
Awesome video. Coming from a history of track and road, this does make good sense on the clear position... My preference towards cleats for MTB is my riding style and general control of the bike comes part from my feet and thighs or rather just feeling better connected to the bike. Either way, I may just try pushing my cleats back 😎👌
You might find that the whole power transfer thing isn't as much as a problem as people assume
flat pedals still win medals?