I think the reason they're slow rolling the Primarchs is that they usually come with a range for their chapter, so they don't want those coming too close together.
Bingo, this is right. They don’t want rando Vulkan or Lorgar turning up as a one-off painting project; they need to form part of an actual army that hangs together as an aesthetic. GW get a lot of crap from all sides but honestly I think they’re being pretty sensible with Primarchs. I don’t doubt that shareholders are begging them to do all 18 ASAP.
@joehill6916 Yep, exactly. I do think we'll prob get two an edition for the next while, but what I'm really interested in is what happens when we move beyond 'range primarchs.' Will the Sallies or WB get a bunch of dedicated kits?
We know we are getting Fulgrim probably next year. There are rumors of Russ with the space wolves as well. I do feel the chaos primarch are much easier to do.
I hate the new list construction. In the past you could take a not so optimized unit. Now because of the drops being tied to heroes and the auxilary unit rules it is not really an option.
Before watching much I'm putting my vote on inches, I think everything should be in mm, would be so much easier to use base-sizes for measuring then. I think it's easy enough to do, you just swap out every instance of 'inches" with "mm" and go from there. Imagine charging 12 mm into battle, would that not feel glorious? Edit: Oh, yeah, I knew what they meant with worst units. Totally just kidding earlier.
I run 3 Ironweld Great Cannons because I just love the model, but the lack of range is tough. Grabbing the formation that gives them -1 to be wounded in the first battle round helps a lot if you position them in the frontline and then move your army around them, but I would love to see it differently. Your suggestions on the topic of arti are great and I hope GW will take at least some in consideration.
In the general news, I want to really shout out those repackaged Underworld four-packs. What an amazing collection of character-quality minis at a reasonable price. Low key the best Warhammer deal in ages. Ephilim’s Pandaemonium is peak.
Am playing Siggy at a two dayer this weekend. First tournament out with slaanesh and first time I painted a 2k army since I started aos. Am hoping he'll do more than he did in my practice games!
I keep thinking that AOS4 should have been vetted by players and not kept so secret. It just seems that there are so elementary mistakes for a new edition. I wish we were back in second edition. I liked my scrolls on the website, my armies still fully supported, and not have the rug pulled out from under me every three years.
(Tangent: A batch of four chariots is too much, do not do it, it was a horrible mistake that has taken me months to chew through. I should either have done just two at a time, or split it horizontally by crew/horses&gorebeasts/chassis).
On monsters, I like the Black Coach. I don't LOVE it, it's expensive, and it's kinda swingy, but it's nice that it can be essentially anywhere and can bring back your lord executioner when he dies. I've been toying with a double Coach list with an executioner and a Cairn Wraith backing up 2 reinforced squads of Grimghast Reapers all in that Black Coach detachment to give everything a 5+ ward around it. I doubt it'll be very good but it sounds fun!
I've been having really good luck with the maw grunta gouger and hakkin krew in my games recently only 1 game against trolls where I couldn't lift a unit on the charge
I still belive having foot/cav heroes able to join specific units would be a great rule in general, but of course game would need to be balanced around it as well. I really hoped pre 4.0 release we'd get that, I hoped for a system where heroes had listings of what units they could join, and certain foot heroes just couldn't join units. Especially it would focus on foot melee heroes, while many casters or buff pieces in the backfield still couldn't join. Thus not necessarily remove sniping / targeting / killing off support pieces early in all cases. Also Foot heroes even if they still didn't have amazing dmg potential, would act like an upgrade to a unit almost, many wholly withing 12" rules and such could be skipped too, speeding up the game, just having the ability target the unit they joined. Only aspect I miss from WHFB & playing older 40k editions (haven't played the new with heroes joining again).
Double Mortek Crawler 2nd & Double Monsta-killaz 4th at Atlanta are counter exemple for Artillery 😅 Agree overall and i'm very sad, especially for charriots... I still dream about a warmachine season for next one to raise them from the grave
I think they do need to be careful with artillery especially if they increase the range. Being able to shoot into combat and not having a minimum range in which they can fire, those pieces could get really toxic, really fast, especially if they start cranking out more damage than the crawler. I think if they provided a more support type function instead of raw damage at range, people would be more ok with it (ie. If a shooting attack hit from this unit add +1 to wound rolls that target that unit).
artillery negatively impacting control score as the unit scatters from being bombarded could be interesting. it would then pair well with charging in something for some legitimate tactics
@ could be interesting, but right now control scores mean nothing because everything just explodes to the super high damage that’s in the game right now. If they find away to tone down the damage so that control score shenanigans actually means something, this could be an elegant solution.
Great show as always! very helpful. Understanding not to chase poor units..do you think like with AoS 3.0 we will see an era where monsters come back to the forefront
I would love for the Burning Chariot to essentially be a flying tank. I say let those Horrors throw fireballs, and give the Exalted Flamer his profile-choosing shooting attack from 40k.
Vince, does a grey seer on foot get to use his warpstone shards ability when using magical intervention since it says cast as if it were your hero phase?
Still love these; hope they do somehow improve. Chariots are a great fantasy aesthetic and archetype, and it’s cool to have a ‘chariot faction’ in HoS.
Gutted they are squatting the Warshrine - I spent ages converting one on the back of a Mierce mammoth (after they squatted the FW mammoth). Pretty demoralising. Don't get me started on the Chaos Lord on Manticore...
I get that, I have many armies and units on the shelf from retired rules. It always hurts, but 26 years into the game, I have had units come and go many times. :)
One of the worst parts of Chariots being bad across the board is that they are pretty consistently terrible to paint compared to the other models in their ranges. Imagine fully edge highlighting a hellflayer.
I just want to say, i dont actually think Forge World models are that bad. They arent good, they should be better consodering they come from a massive company. But ive worked on garage kits from Japan that are made by one guy in his house, that have a limited print run of maybe 25 kits and get sold on a limited license for a single day at a single event, and some of those are ROUGH to work with, much more so than GW
Random dumb stuff is f*ing dumb. I hate expexting random nonsense to happen if you play Skaven is a given. If that garbage is in the army their points need to reflect it. They never seem to though.
If there’s 8 purple suns then people have insane luck. You’re rolling 7-9 and your opponent can’t unbind? Then the opposite happens on their turn?? On 4 tables??? Can someone crunch the numbers on that probability happening
Not all were in play at that exact moment, some were off to the side waiting to come back, but each players was always trying each round and sometimes off turn. :)
Do you think that GW actively doesn't want some of these unit types played in competitive? Perhaps a commercial consideration based on yield or it keeps it easier to balance the game?
Cries in maggotkin, majority of our heros are foot heros, like they ain't bad but our infantry options are pretty non-existent XD Eagerly awaiting our new tome, the theme and rules are pretty cool, but getting disease is honestly waaaaay to difficult to do.
Yeah in the current timeline the person who has the Pale Spear (as far as we know) is the Alpha Legion warband leader Solomon Akurra. So my guess is it'll be a Black Library model for him.
It might depend on my speaker setup, but I do think that Vince Being much quieter than his co-hosts is a recurring issue, sometimes to the point of unwatchability.
I don't think the other guy here knows recent skaven, there's much more reliability in the army than ever, I wouldnt say playing skaven feels anymore random than any other army tbh
To be fair, it depends a lot on your army construction. :) - They did remove some of the overclocking, but I have played a few lists that lean into it and you can still really get that wild feeling sometimes.
I think you guys are just wrong about the vortex beast. It’s good. Better than the other options in the book? Probably not. But it’s a far cry better than the units you are lumping uöit together with.
The majority of problems you talked about weren't created by the 4th rules overhaul, but have been already plagueing those units for most of AoS. So it is very frustrating that they did not even try to address those problems when they touched every single warscroll for the 4th edition update. I could understand it if they tried something and missed. But for most of these problems, they aren't even trying to fixing them. Also, I gotta check out the suggested fixes on Radio Free Hammerhal.
5th edition needs to rethink heroes. They could adopt a system similar to warmachine where heroes are a given and the balancing lever is how much stuff and what kind of stuff they allow you to take.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm getting caught up on vids and wanted to thank you for the shoutout :) It was wonderful to see everyone.
Of course! Hope you're doing well brother!
I think the reason they're slow rolling the Primarchs is that they usually come with a range for their chapter, so they don't want those coming too close together.
Bingo, this is right. They don’t want rando Vulkan or Lorgar turning up as a one-off painting project; they need to form part of an actual army that hangs together as an aesthetic. GW get a lot of crap from all sides but honestly I think they’re being pretty sensible with Primarchs. I don’t doubt that shareholders are begging them to do all 18 ASAP.
@joehill6916 Yep, exactly. I do think we'll prob get two an edition for the next while, but what I'm really interested in is what happens when we move beyond 'range primarchs.' Will the Sallies or WB get a bunch of dedicated kits?
We know we are getting Fulgrim probably next year. There are rumors of Russ with the space wolves as well. I do feel the chaos primarch are much easier to do.
Havoc was really fun! Thanks for talking about it on the show so much, I never would've gone without your high praise for it
Glad you enjoyed it!
12:31 "there's a preview show on friday but I don't know if we'll see anything"
I have never been happier to see Vince proven wrong
I hate the new list construction. In the past you could take a not so optimized unit. Now because of the drops being tied to heroes and the auxilary unit rules it is not really an option.
Before watching much I'm putting my vote on inches, I think everything should be in mm, would be so much easier to use base-sizes for measuring then. I think it's easy enough to do, you just swap out every instance of 'inches" with "mm" and go from there. Imagine charging 12 mm into battle, would that not feel glorious?
Edit: Oh, yeah, I knew what they meant with worst units. Totally just kidding earlier.
I run 3 Ironweld Great Cannons because I just love the model, but the lack of range is tough. Grabbing the formation that gives them -1 to be wounded in the first battle round helps a lot if you position them in the frontline and then move your army around them, but I would love to see it differently. Your suggestions on the topic of arti are great and I hope GW will take at least some in consideration.
Except chariots, all these are units I love so I'm a bit sad about the state of them. Especially monsters
Same here !
In the general news, I want to really shout out those repackaged Underworld four-packs. What an amazing collection of character-quality minis at a reasonable price. Low key the best Warhammer deal in ages. Ephilim’s Pandaemonium is peak.
Love seeing paul as a guest! Got to get him the custom AoS emoji. But you got to pick an army he despises...lol..great show
I don't even care that the vortex beast is bad, I just want it in disciples of tzeentch. It has the tzeentch keyword.
Well based on the gloomspite preview, looks like they've got a perfect chance to try out some chariot designs. I don't have much hope though
Am playing Siggy at a two dayer this weekend. First tournament out with slaanesh and first time I painted a 2k army since I started aos. Am hoping he'll do more than he did in my practice games!
Lesson: GW can’t reliably write single entity damage units.
Great episode, still trying to get over the fact that you called Narsil Isildur. 😄
oh jeez, sorry, speaking too quickly, I do know Isildur is a person and Narsil is the sword, but that's what I get. :)
I keep thinking that AOS4 should have been vetted by players and not kept so secret. It just seems that there are so elementary mistakes for a new edition. I wish we were back in second edition. I liked my scrolls on the website, my armies still fully supported, and not have the rug pulled out from under me every three years.
Watching this while painting up a batch of four chaos chariots. I guess I can thin my paint with the tears.
(Tangent: A batch of four chariots is too much, do not do it, it was a horrible mistake that has taken me months to chew through. I should either have done just two at a time, or split it horizontally by crew/horses&gorebeasts/chassis).
On monsters, I like the Black Coach. I don't LOVE it, it's expensive, and it's kinda swingy, but it's nice that it can be essentially anywhere and can bring back your lord executioner when he dies. I've been toying with a double Coach list with an executioner and a Cairn Wraith backing up 2 reinforced squads of Grimghast Reapers all in that Black Coach detachment to give everything a 5+ ward around it. I doubt it'll be very good but it sounds fun!
I would say that idoneth sharks work well as what a chariot should be
Artillery is also diminished by a smaller board.
I've been having really good luck with the maw grunta gouger and hakkin krew in my games recently only 1 game against trolls where I couldn't lift a unit on the charge
I still belive having foot/cav heroes able to join specific units would be a great rule in general, but of course game would need to be balanced around it as well.
I really hoped pre 4.0 release we'd get that, I hoped for a system where heroes had listings of what units they could join, and certain foot heroes just couldn't join units.
Especially it would focus on foot melee heroes, while many casters or buff pieces in the backfield still couldn't join.
Thus not necessarily remove sniping / targeting / killing off support pieces early in all cases.
Also Foot heroes even if they still didn't have amazing dmg potential, would act like an upgrade to a unit almost, many wholly withing 12" rules and such could be skipped too, speeding up the game, just having the ability target the unit they joined.
Only aspect I miss from WHFB & playing older 40k editions (haven't played the new with heroes joining again).
34:00 Don't let it go unappreciated that Vince inserted some award winning model art to represent even the bad units rules wise. 🫡
Neave Blacktalon is the best foot assassin in the game imo
Double Mortek Crawler 2nd & Double Monsta-killaz 4th at Atlanta are counter exemple for Artillery 😅
Agree overall and i'm very sad, especially for charriots... I still dream about a warmachine season for next one to raise them from the grave
My takeaway is that Gitmob will be facing an uphill battle.
I'm suprised GW didn't find out about the drop problem concerning heroes AND the fact it is STILL a problem in december.
I think they do need to be careful with artillery especially if they increase the range. Being able to shoot into combat and not having a minimum range in which they can fire, those pieces could get really toxic, really fast, especially if they start cranking out more damage than the crawler. I think if they provided a more support type function instead of raw damage at range, people would be more ok with it (ie. If a shooting attack hit from this unit add +1 to wound rolls that target that unit).
artillery negatively impacting control score as the unit scatters from being bombarded could be interesting. it would then pair well with charging in something for some legitimate tactics
@ could be interesting, but right now control scores mean nothing because everything just explodes to the super high damage that’s in the game right now. If they find away to tone down the damage so that control score shenanigans actually means something, this could be an elegant solution.
Vince putting Ninjon in a god damn body bag 😂
I really need to get into AoS, all the models are so cool, even the bad ones haha
Great show as always! very helpful. Understanding not to chase poor units..do you think like with AoS 3.0 we will see an era where monsters come back to the forefront
One only hopes.
I would love for the Burning Chariot to essentially be a flying tank. I say let those Horrors throw fireballs, and give the Exalted Flamer his profile-choosing shooting attack from 40k.
Out of the categories from the 2 bst/worst unit episodes? Would the gloomspite stabbas and shootas fit in ?
Probably neither, they are in that middle ground space, big piles of bodies can be useful, but very low armor means big hammers can just lift them up.
Yeah, I tried playing them but they died just so quickly
Vince, does a grey seer on foot get to use his warpstone shards ability when using magical intervention since it says cast as if it were your hero phase?
No, you can cast as though it was your hero phase, but you can't use the ability, as its not your hero phase.
@ Thanks for the info.
@ Sorry, another question. Can a grey seer use skitterleap to count for the take the flanks battle tactic?
The infamous Slaanesh chariot has been discussed!
Still love these; hope they do somehow improve. Chariots are a great fantasy aesthetic and archetype, and it’s cool to have a ‘chariot faction’ in HoS.
Gutted they are squatting the Warshrine - I spent ages converting one on the back of a Mierce mammoth (after they squatted the FW mammoth). Pretty demoralising. Don't get me started on the Chaos Lord on Manticore...
I get that, I have many armies and units on the shelf from retired rules. It always hurts, but 26 years into the game, I have had units come and go many times. :)
One of the worst parts of Chariots being bad across the board is that they are pretty consistently terrible to paint compared to the other models in their ranges. Imagine fully edge highlighting a hellflayer.
I just want to say, i dont actually think Forge World models are that bad. They arent good, they should be better consodering they come from a massive company. But ive worked on garage kits from Japan that are made by one guy in his house, that have a limited print run of maybe 25 kits and get sold on a limited license for a single day at a single event, and some of those are ROUGH to work with, much more so than GW
Random dumb stuff is f*ing dumb. I hate expexting random nonsense to happen if you play Skaven is a given. If that garbage is in the army their points need to reflect it. They never seem to though.
If there’s 8 purple suns then people have insane luck. You’re rolling 7-9 and your opponent can’t unbind? Then the opposite happens on their turn?? On 4 tables??? Can someone crunch the numbers on that probability happening
Not all were in play at that exact moment, some were off to the side waiting to come back, but each players was always trying each round and sometimes off turn. :)
People complaining about artilery and shooting in general play on bad boards without enough terrain 99%.
Or they need to play against a shooting army that shoots with a stormtrooper's accuracy : the mighty Kharadrons.
Do you think that GW actively doesn't want some of these unit types played in competitive? Perhaps a commercial consideration based on yield or it keeps it easier to balance the game?
No, I just think they don't accounted for the depth of the shift in the underlying foundation.
Cries in maggotkin, majority of our heros are foot heros, like they ain't bad but our infantry options are pretty non-existent XD
Eagerly awaiting our new tome, the theme and rules are pretty cool, but getting disease is honestly waaaaay to difficult to do.
Weapons teams are 3 health each. 9 wounds on a 6+ save!
Or the Khorne dragon I spent 8 months on...
Bringing my brood terror for the first time tomorrow against a SCE list bringing yndrasta, he is going to get slapped
Omegan could be alive. But someone new has the spear
Yeah in the current timeline the person who has the Pale Spear (as far as we know) is the Alpha Legion warband leader Solomon Akurra. So my guess is it'll be a Black Library model for him.
@BlastastiC that's what I'm hoping for. I love the Alpha Legion color scheme and lore. And Harrowmaster was such a good book.
The only person who ISN'T Alpharius is Alpharius... who is actually Omegon 😂
It might depend on my speaker setup, but I do think that Vince Being much quieter than his co-hosts is a recurring issue, sometimes to the point of unwatchability.
I'll have to look into that.
U hatin on all unit types I like.
I don't think the other guy here knows recent skaven, there's much more reliability in the army than ever, I wouldnt say playing skaven feels anymore random than any other army tbh
To be fair, it depends a lot on your army construction. :) - They did remove some of the overclocking, but I have played a few lists that lean into it and you can still really get that wild feeling sometimes.
@ there is still some but it’s not a trope that skaven are shackled to anymore which is good for the army as a whole imo
I think you guys are just wrong about the vortex beast. It’s good. Better than the other options in the book? Probably not. But it’s a far cry better than the units you are lumping uöit together with.
With some of the points presented, does that make Skaven an unviable army?
Not at all, you just have to be careful on units, but they have plenty of options.
@ Seems like the only option is whether or not to bring Runners to supplement your army of Clanrats and ratling guns.
The majority of problems you talked about weren't created by the 4th rules overhaul, but have been already plagueing those units for most of AoS. So it is very frustrating that they did not even try to address those problems when they touched every single warscroll for the 4th edition update. I could understand it if they tried something and missed. But for most of these problems, they aren't even trying to fixing them.
Also, I gotta check out the suggested fixes on Radio Free Hammerhal.
5th edition needs to rethink heroes. They could adopt a system similar to warmachine where heroes are a given and the balancing lever is how much stuff and what kind of stuff they allow you to take.